Using "qi" to break vs. physics (video)

[IronFist]

Watch the breaking in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qHL2PSpecI&feature=related

When breaking the bricks, he is lifting the brick up right before he hits it, and then hitting the brick into the corner of the step. Physics, not qi.

Similarly, most of the other breaks he does are tricks of physics, not qi. Especially when breaking the long concrete slabs well above the middle point while the middle is pressed up against a step or something. Sure, you still have to hit them hard enough to break them, but there's no "qi" involved.

Or the long poles that are broken well below the mid point, resulting in physics (momentum) causing the break, not qi in the forearm.

Look, I'm not saying that untrained Joe Schmoe could replicate all of these (he probably could for some of them, certainly not the trident in the stomach or the stuff that involves your head, since some PHYSICAL (not qi) conditioning is needed to do those), but these are not "feats of qi" and I feel it is misleading to be presenting them as such.

And this is National Geographic and Shaolin Monks. I would expect higher quality/less BS from them.

This is trying to mystify the martial arts. Just like the "sensei is too deadly to spar with" stuff.

Discuss.

[EarthDragon]

I agree that some of the stuff they do is for show, impressive as it is, there needs to be an explnation of what is a skill and what is parlour trick.

Many times when people break you can see the trick they used, not to the untrained but for real IP people it is quite evenident.

but for the demos they like to show off thier mental focus and physical conditioning which is far greater than most anyone has reached on this board or anywehere else for that matter, so you gotta give them thier respect for thier acomplishments.

Qi breaks? no......... but is qi used to do the breaks? yes

knowing the differnce priceless

[Dale Dugas]

There are many people who have fooled the public for too long.

there is a Certain self-proclaimed grandmaster who state that if you do not break your bricks the long way versus the short way, you are not doing iron palm.

What complete and utter BS.

I have a few videos out there of me breaking, and they get a lot of flack from people. The funny thing is, the detractors scream BS, but cannot duplicate the breaks nor have they EVER posted up a video of them doing the same breaks.

How about this break. With the brick laying flat on the ground and using minimal if no body weight, the power is brought up and then transferred down into the hand and into the brick

http://youtu.be/048T0E8MRbA

[EarthDragon]

nice break dale, nothing fake about that one, but as you know there wqill always be sceptic and haters. that just measn your doing somethign right :D

we spoke about Rod and the flat break when I invited josh walker up to NY for a IP seminar as I aksed him about it, because my sifu does a vibrating palm break in which his hand never leaves contact with the brick.

So therefore I thought the flat break was not a great or best way of demostrating vibrating palm but I was corrected as there is more than one way to perfrom vibrational breaking. your thoughts?

[Dale Dugas]

To me, using yin soft power is similar but different than using yang power which is obvious and harder.

Whether you keep contact or not, is not really the issue but can you hit softly and penetrate into the material you are hitting: i.e. bricks, people, thick skulls, etc.

[Dale Dugas]

Here is a bottom brick break with me kipping up onto the bricks to show all the detractors and naysayers that the bricks were solid.

Being 6'2" and 295 makes it extremely difficult for fake bricks when you lean on them as they would break.

http://youtu.be/cyXzlR3sDAc

[Dale Dugas]

Another short break video.


No huge windups.

Just drop the hand and breath.

http://youtu.be/5KDciiFeo4Q

[Dale Dugas]

Here is another break where there is no windup but the initial movement that was brought up from the ground and then into the brick.

http://youtu.be/1dS9HTxvtrE

[bawang]

concrete has high compressive strength, its strong when pressed between two surfaces

it has weak tensile strength, its weak when suspended in the air

[Syn7]

concrete has high compressive strength, its strong when pressed between two surfaces

it has weak tensile strength, its weak when suspended in the air

which is why they use spacers to look hardcore when really its nothing special... respect the hand conditioning, but most breakers are just using simple brute force... unlike the cats who lightly slap the brick pile but only break the bottom one... big difference ay.

same can be said for the metal break over the head... all conditioning so it doesnt hurt like a motherfukcer, but thats the only skill there...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most breaking is actually what we call parlor tricks. There are ways of doing it that make it easier. However, it does take some physical prowess to achieve. A weak person with hands that are not conditioned will not likely be able to break a brick even if it were suspended at the very ends.
Being able to break objects without parlor tricks requires strength, but it also requires hand speed and application of qi at the very instant of impact. I used to do a little trick when I was a young man that no one was able to duplicate. I would take the 12" by 12" by 1" piece of wood and break it with the grain. Easy to do with the fist or hand edge, but what I did was shove a thumb tack into oposing corners and tie a piece of cotton sewing thread across them. I would hang this from something. With the tips of the fingers of my right hand I could take off 2" increments of this board without breaking the thread. You could lift it quarter of an inch and drop it and the thread would break. I had dozens of people say it was easy when they seen me do it, but no one has ever duplicated it. The speed of the strike, the shock of the strike, was such that it didn't even move the board on impact. When anyone else tried it the board went flying off across the floor. Oh, the grain was side to side. No one can break it across the grain like that.

[Darthlawyer]

Not to use the Bruce Lee "boards don't hit back" quote, but well...

If these "breaking skills" had any combat effectiveness, wouldn't there be some MMA fighters who would just break their opponents' outstretched arms, post-punch? I understand that the skills are dramatic... some are probably faked, but I mean, why would someone want to break a board in two inch increments, unless they were a carpenter?

[IronFist]

There are many people who have fooled the public for too long.

there is a Certain self-proclaimed grandmaster who state that if you do not break your bricks the long way versus the short way, you are not doing iron palm.

I only know of one guy who breaks them that way. Is his last name a color?


How about this break. With the brick laying flat on the ground and using minimal if no body weight, the power is brought up and then transferred down into the hand and into the brick

http://youtu.be/048T0E8MRbA

Your breaks looked good. If you're using physics to cheat it's not blatantly obvious like in that vid I posted.

[IronFist]

Not to use the Bruce Lee "boards don't hit back" quote, but well...

If these "breaking skills" had any combat effectiveness, wouldn't there be some MMA fighters who would just break their opponents' outstretched arms, post-punch?

Yes.

Of course, you have to remember that real fighters who are actually trying to hurt you don't leave their arms extended after they punch.


I understand that the skills are dramatic... some are probably faked, but I mean, why would someone want to break a board in two inch increments, unless they were a carpenter?

I always looked at breaking as just a test of hand conditioning. If you can punch through a board you're probably less likely to break your hand punching someone.

Or, breaking can be a cool art in itself. Sort of like a martial arts equivalent of powerlifting.

Breaking doesn't mean you're a good fighter.

I always wondered, however, if say you're fighting someone and you get them in your guard, could you just iron palm strike them in the head and crack their skull (coconut break style or whatever)?

I just figure... if all this mystical stuff was as effective as people think, professional fighters would use it. I absolutely agree with you.

But I don't see any pro fighters doing hour long iron vest sets. If they really resulted in the ability to not take any damage from any torso strikes after 3 years like they claim, fighters would be all over them. Immunity to liver punches, kicks that slip past your defenses and hit you in the ribs, etc. No pain, no damage, not even being stunned. Every pro fighter would love to have that advantage.

But people will just say "oh yeah, that's too deadly for the ring" or whatever :D It's the same reason their instructor won't spar with them.

And also, if no touch knockout worked, pro fighters would be interested in it. We've all seen the vid of that no touch knockout guy vs the kickboxer or karate guy or whatever it was. The poor old man got punched in the face pretty hard.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a TMA guy win an NHB tournament using something that no one has ever seen before. No touch knockouts, qi-based invulnerability, snake or mantis style or something and everyone is just like omg, that was awesome, I want to learn that! But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Or maybe MMA guys should start hanging by their necks like the guys in those videos were doing so they can last longer before tapping out from chokes!

It seems to me like this mystic stuff is just trying to defraud people. "Whoa, that guy broke 3 bricks with iron palm! I bet he could beat Mike Tyson!" And then when he doesn't, it's "oh... well that stuff was too deadly to use in the ring, anyway."

At least with magicians, you know it's an illusion, and they don't pretend otherwise. But those monks are trying to pass it off as having legit super-human skills when, in fact, the majority of what they did was parlor tricks.

[LFJ]

You weren't showing IronFist that this is "Qi breaking" were you? Most of those were just about learning the right technique, which is again, physics. Not that Joe Schmoe could do them...

But I notice something odd with your "bottom brick break":



Here is a bottom brick break with me kipping up onto the bricks to show all the detractors and naysayers that the bricks were solid.

Being 6'2" and 295 makes it extremely difficult for fake bricks when you lean on them as they would break.

http://youtu.be/cyXzlR3sDAc

At the start of this video the two bricks were solid against each other.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick1.jpg

Then at 0:17 in the clip when you pushed on (the outside of) them a little you can here a dull "pop" and there came an obvious black space between them. At the bottom of the lower brick, right in the middle there is also a small black spot that appeared.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick2.jpg

This small black spot is exactly where the brick cracked when you tapped it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick3.jpg

[mooyingmantis]

I always wondered, however, if say you're fighting someone and you get them in your guard, could you just iron palm strike them in the head and crack their skull (coconut break style or whatever)?

Would you compete in a competition in which your opponent was trying to crack your skull? Or where your opponent would purposely break your arm?

MMA has rules and MMA fighters are not trying to kill or permanently injure one another. It is **** sport, not gladiators fighting in an arena.

Even in 70s bare-knuckle fights we respected each other enough not to try and purposely main each other.

Now some are probably going to say, "Oh, so its too deadly for the ring" and do the immature snicker. Yes, there are techniques too deadly for the ring. That is why there are rules. And that is why some states do not allow MMA matches as they currently stand. Watch the number of states that allow MMA matches drop if peeps start getting permanently maimed.

Even with rules, are you aware of these statistics that I posted in another thread a couple of months ago?

Deaths in the Ring

Journal of Combative Sport

From 1890 to 2007 1,335 deaths occurred world-wide in a boxing type format:
14 Toughman style fighters
126 training deaths
293 amateur boxers
923 professional boxers

From 1960 to 2007 there were 421 boxing-related deaths. 80% of the deaths were attributed to head, brain or neck injuries.

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm

[IronFist]

Would you compete in a competition in which your opponent was trying to crack your skull? Or where your opponent would purposely break your arm?

MMA has rules and MMA fighters are not trying to kill or permanently injure one another. It is **** sport, not gladiators fighting in an arena.

Even in 70s bare-knuckle fights we respected each other enough not to try and purposely main each other.

Now some are probably going to say, "Oh, so its too deadly for the ring" and do the immature snicker. Yes, there are techniques too deadly for the ring. That is why there are rules. And that is why some states do not allow MMA matches as they currently stand. Watch the number of states that allow MMA matches drop if peeps start getting permanently maimed.

Even with rules, are you aware of these statistics that I posted in another thread a couple of months ago?

Deaths in the Ring

Journal of Combative Sport

From 1890 to 2007 1,335 deaths occurred world-wide in a boxing type format:
14 Toughman style fighters
126 training deaths
293 amateur boxers
923 professional boxers

From 1960 to 2007 there were 421 boxing-related deaths. 80% of the deaths were attributed to head, brain or neck injuries.

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm

No dude I was talking about in a life or death fight.

Many of the iron palm" breaks I've seen involve using a large amount of bodyweight. I wonder if they could do it while laying on their back.

Challenge: IP guys: do a break while laying on your back and not using any body weight (be careful the brick doesn't fall on your head after you break it!)


I suggested this technique because I don't think a grappler would care too much about "a strike that looks like a slap" while he's in your guard. Not to mention, grapplers tend to not care too much about incoming punches from the guy on the bottom because they have no bodyweight behind them.

So it could be entirely unexpected, and if successful, could be an equalizer of sorts for kung fu guys against grapplers, because let's be honest, the grappler is gonna win 99% of the time against a kung fu guy who has a) no experience on the ground and/or b) no experience against a resisting opponent. btw this is fact. It is not up for discussion. Every single one of us who were TMA'ists and then went to a grappling or MMA school got owned in like 30 seconds against a grappler the first time we sparred with one.

[IronFist]

You weren't showing IronFist that this is "Qi breaking" were you? Most of those were just about learning the right technique, which is again, physics. Not that Joe Schmoe could do them...

But I notice something odd with your "bottom brick break":




At the start of this video the two bricks were solid against each other.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick1.jpg

Then at 0:17 in the clip when you pushed on (the outside of) them a little you can here a dull "pop" and there came an obvious black space between them. At the bottom of the lower brick, right in the middle there is also a small black spot that appeared.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick2.jpg

This small black spot is exactly where the brick cracked when you tapped it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/brick3.jpg

Whoa, I didn't even notice that before, probably because I watched the vid at like 3am. lol.

Possible explanations:

1) camera artifacts from Youtube's compression method

2) suspicious bottom brick that was flexible or somehow bendy (it did sort of appear to go from a little convex to a little concave when he pressed on them... but this was likely camera artificats)

3) there was a gap between them, and his qi actually went through the top brick, through the space, and into the bottom brick to break it. Short-distance no-touch KO!

But if you'll notice, the black gap didn't appear until after he was pulling his weight off of it, which leads me to believe it was a camera artifact. Watch when his hand is in front of the bricks. There are other black gaps that appear and redraw.


Serious question: why was the bottom brick red rather than concrete color?


Suggestion: next time show each brick independently, show that it is real, then put them on the stand, then break them. I only say this because you pressed on the edges of the bricks and they supported your weight. Nay-sayers will say maybe the middle of the bricks were modified somehow.

Or, set up the bricks and start stacking some weights on them, like weight plates or dumbbells or whatever, to show that they are real.


Not hating, I thought your breaks were good. Just giving some suggestions for next time.

[IronFist]

Ohh, I have a question:

Why are the bricks always supported just on the very edges? That seems unstable. I notice this in every breaking vid I've seen (except for when the brick is on the ground). I'm always worried the bricks are going to fall off and land on the guys toes or something because they're only supported by like 3mm on each side.

Would the break still be just as doable if the supporting stands were a little closer? Or does having them further apart give you more leverage for the break? Now that I think about it, I think it would. Or maybe it gives more room for your hand to follow through after the break (safety)?

I'm not a breaker so I really don't know. I would assume having them entirely on a surface (like Dale's ground break) would be harder. Is this correct?

Opinions?

Here's a pic:

[lkfmdc]

This is a GENERAL post, not directed at anyone in particular, NOT directed at Dale, etc

But generally, breaking things is a show. IF someone with no fighting ability CAN break stuff, then even if people who CAN fight break stuff what does it mean?

Kyokushinkai used to make a big deal about breaking. But (I think it was Bluming?) when it came out how much of those breaks were completely manipulated

[IronFist]

Is this a good break?

3 bricks on the ground, no spacers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndA32x3Xg9Q&feature=related

[IronFist]

This guy also does granite, too. (but look how far apart the supports are: leverage advantage????)

How strong is granite? I know everyone loves it for their counter tops in their kitchen. Is it hard to break?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvtOOPFkGg&feature=related

[Dale Dugas]

I used two different colored bricks to show a contrast of the top and bottom brick, as I thought it would be easier to see the bottom brick and what happens.

I cannot do that all the time, and to be honest it happens about 6 times out of every ten breaks.

Not easy to do.

The bricks that are flat on the ground and harder to break and my intention is turned up to 11 when I break them.

I have never tried to break while lying on my back and I have no idea if its possible.

will have to see if it can be done.

[Dale Dugas]

Is this a good break?

3 bricks on the ground, no spacers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndA32x3Xg9Q&feature=related


I have seen that kind of concrete. It is used in Europe a lot, and its light weight and very easy to break.

the blocks I break are pebble aggregate that are heavy and dense.

Also if you watch there is way too much dust flying when he hits them and that usually hints at baking them or they are extremely dry and crumble to dust easily.

The granite is rather long compared to other bricks which might make it easier for him to break.

He also seems to be wearing some kind of gloves.

I do use a thin towel and sometimes a dish towel to keep my hands from being cut. A towel and gloves are two different things IMO.

[lkfmdc]

Is this a good break?

3 bricks on the ground, no spacers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndA32x3Xg9Q&feature=related

look at his martial arts "skill"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TacnBn1u-Hc&NR=1

:rolleyes:

[IronFist]

The Truth Behind Breaking the Bottom Brick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnD1fl-f-4&NR=1

A guy with no training and no conditioning does it using a hammer. He says it's just physics, no "chi."

Discuss.

[IronFist]

look at his martial arts "skill"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TacnBn1u-Hc&NR=1

:rolleyes:

I was asking about the break, tho.

breaking != fighting
fighting != breaking

[IronFist]

I have seen that kind of concrete. It is used in Europe a lot, and its light weight and very easy to break.

the blocks I break are pebble aggregate that are heavy and dense.

Also if you watch there is way too much dust flying when he hits them and that usually hints at baking them or they are extremely dry and crumble to dust easily.

The granite is rather long compared to other bricks which might make it easier for him to break.

He also seems to be wearing some kind of gloves.

I do use a thin towel and sometimes a dish towel to keep my hands from being cut. A towel and gloves are two different things IMO.

Ok, yeah I didn't know anything about those bricks.

I have no problem with putting a towel down over the bricks. Better than cutting your hand.

The granite pieces get smaller as the video goes on. I don't know anything about granite, though. I know some materials are super brittle and will break even under their own weight (glass is like this).

[IronFist]

Once again, so people don't misunderstand my point:

I'm not trying to downplay the amount of conditioning needed to break bricks. I haven't done hand conditioning in years and probably cannot do the breaks myself. I don't think you can take an untrained guy and have him breaking bricks in 5 minutes. Conditioning takes time, effort, skill, and dedication; truly the definition of "kung fu."

Now, the kicks that the monks were doing in the first vid to break the concrete bricks, I do think you could teach an untrained guy to do that in 5 minutes. Why?

1) Most people can kick pretty hard without training, especially is they use their heel.

2) Those concrete slabs broke because of how they were set up. It was physics, not qi.

My issue is when people try to pass off parlor tricks as being the result of mystical power. It's quackery, it's BS, and it makes martial arts look bad.

Throwing the needle through the glass? Physics, not qi.

Legit breaking bricks with your hand? Conditioning, not qi.

Cheap breaking bricks with your hand (such as doing it on the edge of a step and lifting it up 1mm before your hand strikes it)? Parlor tricks and conditioning, not qi.

Breaking stuff with your head? Conditioning, not qi.

Breaking the bottom brick? Physics, not qi.

Hanging by your neck in one of those straps? Conditioning, not qi.

404 qi not found.

I've even seen people hit out the bottom of a glass bottle and say it was qi. lol, I've seen drunk frat guys do the same thing. I don't think they were practitioners of qigong.

I saw another thing on TV where they said the one inch punch was because of qi. Nope! Physics, again. You can teach someone to do a one inch punch in 5 minutes. Of course, they will be more successful if they have good hand conditioning, but short power generation is physics, not qi.

If thinking of using qi helps the martial artist focus, that's one thing. If they believe qi manipulation improves their health or whatever, that's fine. But when they're trying to say that the breaks are a result of qi, when in fact they are some combination of conditioning and/or physics, that is BS. The martial arts community should work on distancing itself from these charlatans, not embracing their lies as being legitimate.

[Syn7]

I used two different colored bricks to show a contrast of the top and bottom brick, as I thought it would be easier to see the bottom brick and what happens.

I cannot do that all the time, and to be honest it happens about 6 times out of every ten breaks.

Not easy to do.

The bricks that are flat on the ground and harder to break and my intention is turned up to 11 when I break them.

I have never tried to break while lying on my back and I have no idea if its possible.

will have to see if it can be done.



i would love to see a bottom break with your bricks flat on the ground...


also, if indeed a break was from qi, then it shouldnt matter what position your body is or where the brick lays, doncha think? on the flipside, if its all physics, those factors become very important...

of all the cats who posted their breaks on this forum, i mos def like yours the best... that teetsao cat isnt bad either...

im so tired of watching big dudes smash things and claim special powers and sh1t tho. nice to see you guys do it proper. its so anoying to have somebody talk up their breaks saying its all qi then watch them jump up and slam into the bricks at full tilt... especially when there are spacers, thats the worst...


has anyone here done a "middle" break??? you know what i mean, right? at least three bricks, bottom and top are fine, middle is broken... ofcourse i dont expect some van damm brick to dust bullsh1t. just a simple crack would be impressive enough...

personally, i can break the small red bricks with my palm on a ledge... but i never thought of that as anything special... but i dont see cats break them small ones very often... i wanna see cats do it like in that chinese shaolin doc where the guy goes down the line...


anyone here able to toss a needle very well? ive never actually seen that in person and you can never see it very well on cheap youtube vids... not enough frames per second to really get a good look at the damage on the glass, let alone seeing the needle fly thru at super slow speed...

[Syn7]

also, i would love to see w break of a small red brick that is suspended by a string... much better than simply standing up the 12 inchers on thier side... not that that is easy, just sayin... anyone???

[Syn7]

Whoa, I didn't even notice that before, probably because I watched the vid at like 3am. lol.

Possible explanations:

1) camera artifacts from Youtube's compression method

2) suspicious bottom brick that was flexible or somehow bendy (it did sort of appear to go from a little convex to a little concave when he pressed on them... but this was likely camera artificats)

3) there was a gap between them, and his qi actually went through the top brick, through the space, and into the bottom brick to break it. Short-distance no-touch KO!

But if you'll notice, the black gap didn't appear until after he was pulling his weight off of it, which leads me to believe it was a camera artifact. Watch when his hand is in front of the bricks. There are other black gaps that appear and redraw.


Serious question: why was the bottom brick red rather than concrete color?


Suggestion: next time show each brick independently, show that it is real, then put them on the stand, then break them. I only say this because you pressed on the edges of the bricks and they supported your weight. Nay-sayers will say maybe the middle of the bricks were modified somehow.

Or, set up the bricks and start stacking some weights on them, like weight plates or dumbbells or whatever, to show that they are real.


Not hating, I thought your breaks were good. Just giving some suggestions for next time.

mos def not an artifact... doesnt fit...

i think it prolly just snapped when he put his weight on it... but i dont think it was intentional and im sure he can still do it... i would like to see the same one done with the same kind of bricks... same color too...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Not to use the Bruce Lee "boards don't hit back" quote, but well...

If these "breaking skills" had any combat effectiveness, wouldn't there be some MMA fighters who would just break their opponents' outstretched arms, post-punch? I understand that the skills are dramatic... some are probably faked, but I mean, why would someone want to break a board in two inch increments, unless they were a carpenter?

I guess it has no real application except that I can still stick holes in a persons face with my finger tips. Actually, it was simply a show of technique. Besides, most MMA fighters do not have the concentration for this, and I am sure that there would be some sort of rule against breaking arms intentionally. And of course not everyone, in fact, few people can do such things. I have never seen it duplicated by anyone, no matter how good they were at breaking stuff.

[Lee Chiang Po]

also, i would love to see w break of a small red brick that is suspended by a string... much better than simply standing up the 12 inchers on thier side... not that that is easy, just sayin... anyone???

The problem I see with that is that a piece of cotton sewing thread will never suspend a large brick like that. You would have to use a stronger string, and that would not mean the same thing. When breaking a piece of wood, even something easy and linear with the grain, you can still not break it without breaking the thread. I can. But have not seen anyone else that could. With a brick the strength of the thread would have to be of such that any mug could bust the brick most likely. I do not doubt that there are those that could easily break a suspended brick of that size. In my day I think I could have done so easily, but not suspended from a piece of thread.

[mooyingmantis]

Easiest way to fake a break:
1. Drop one side of the block while hitting it.
2. Score the block before breaking.
3. Tap the block several times to cause small internal fractures before breaking the block.

Of the breaks that I have seen on YouTube, the Shaolin Monks seem to be the biggest cheaters.

Though these methods are legitimate, the easiest ways to break are:
1. Extra long blocks or blocks that are only 4" wide.
2. Blocks supported at the very ends.
3. Spacers between blocks and let weight do the work after breaking the top block.

Toughest methods for breaking blocks:
1. No spacers
2. Blocks lying on a flat, smooth surface.
3. Blocks held against a flat, smooth wall.

I must admit that when it comes to Qi, I am an agnostic. Though I received the qigong training that is considered necessary for breaking, I have doubts concerning its efficacy.

However, I am by no means an iron palm master. My skills definitely pale in comparison to Dale Dugas and Rodney Morgan. I have personally seen Rod and other members of the Iron Lotus Society do amazing breaks (three blocks no spacers and a block broken while lying on a smooth, flat concrete floor). I checked out the blocks ahead of time without their knowledge and they passed inspection. When I see their videos, I have no doubt that their breaks are real.

Whether Qi plays a factor in the breaks, I don't honestly know. However, their skills far exceed my own. Perhaps my lack of belief is the difference, perhaps not.

[PlumDragon]

There is so much Id like to say in this thread but at the end of the day its just not worth the time. I dont know if Im getting more lazy with age, or I just dont care to talk about it anymore.

But what I do want to mention, something I feel very strongly about, is that qigong is NOT...absolutely NOT necessary to condition or legitimately perform difficult breaks (via iron palm or some other system) successfully. Qigong is a mental facet of training, it can help with relaxation and healing, and I teach it to my students so they have the whole system. But it is NOT necessary. You should be able to walk up to a block (or 2) and break it without any warmup, any jow, or any mental pattycake. Or else what you are doing is worthless. Hope thats not insulting to anyone, its just a fact.

What is important is that you condition properly and safely, and what is important is that you realize that iron palm is JUST the conditioning. Iron palm has F*** all to do with fighting. Iron palm is like taking free throws in basketball; you cant use iron palm unless youve first learned how to deal with the intensity and pressure of a serious opponent. And even then most people wont be able to use it. Fact is, most peoples time is much better spemt training other facets and skillsets. You learn and take part in iron palm because its something you enjoy or are intrigued by.

But if youre anything like me, then you like martial arts...and you also just so happen to like the break s**t! ;)

[teetsao]

Is this a good break?

3 bricks on the ground, no spacers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndA32x3Xg9Q&feature=related


LOL, no.this is a substance called "y-tong" it floats.it is "airated concrete" mostly air not much concrete. it is used in europe. 6 year olds break it.

[teetsao]

i actually have been working on setting up a video.
fuji film makes a substance called "tactile pressure film" it is 4 mil. thick and sandwiches micro beads that burst under different ranges of pressure and turn the film different colors depending upon the force exerted.i contacted a supplier and he sent me some samples and i am going to demo the pressure exerted to break a 4inch block which home depot and lowes rates at 2000psi to break. we are not sure how much force we are exerting and this will be a good measure. i also have other vids of me breaking a coconut laying on my back,i may redo it. i would post them on here but i do not have time to explain them to some of the people on here,as they seem to have no grasp of what they are seeing when things are demonstrated before them.so i will prob just post them on youtube. my answer to this is,if you doubt something go set it up yourself and try it. dont use a hammer,however i do know the kid from autralia that set those up and he conceded to me he couldnt even think about doing it with his hand,(comparing my hand to a hammer is quit a compliment to me)and also the brick on top was much shorter than the rest of the bricks on the bottom,so it was just a shape charge effect,not the same,
then report back with your findings. use bricks from lowes or home depot ONLY,no crap,this is what we use. try it all different ways,flat on the ground,against a wall,throw it in the air,1-2-3-4 stacks,a 4 inch ,a 4inch plus 2inch on top of it,and we have it all on video.
prob. is most people doing "iron palm" do not have all the training.they have ,"apply jow hit bag,reapply jow"and think this is iron palm. no way. much more to it. and if you think it is just the prior and not the latter, fine by me.if you think it wont help you in combat,also fine by me.
this subject as been debated waaay to much,it is no debate,either you beleive it is beneficial or you dont and prob. no one will convince the other,however i have made beleivers locally once they saw me demo in person. not bragging,just saying it is different in person. most look at videos and say"thats b.s. ,i can do that" but they dont,cause they cant.

[teetsao]

didnt mean to get off subject
qi is not the effectig force. vibration is.
the chinese have an axiom "qi does not effect the man made of wood,stone or glass"

[Pk_StyLeZ]

sorry just had to come and put in my 2 cent

qi = energy
you need energy to break the bricks...as you need energy to do a lot of stuff...so yes qi is involved in breaking the bricks....even if they did lift up the bricks and cheat...still need energy.... (yeah i know MOST people probably do not think of it thats way...but thats fine...) (i have a weird way of thinking)

a lot of the qi qong acts are physics though i do agree...some are jus retarded...eatting/biting/chewing glass?? LOL who would even think of that!

using a towel over the brick...i do not understand how is that iron palm? isnt iron palm when you condition skin/hand does not get damage? or hurt? so if you cut ur self, that mean you do not have iron palm.....

[IronFist]

LOL, no.this is a substance called "y-tong" it floats.it is "airated concrete" mostly air not much concrete. it is used in europe. 6 year olds break it.

So are European buildings ****ty?

[Grumblegeezer]

Easiest way to fake a break:
1. Drop one side of the block while hitting it.
2. Score the block before breaking.
3. Tap the block several times to cause small internal fractures before breaking the block.

Of the breaks that I have seen on YouTube, the Shaolin Monks seem to be the biggest cheaters.

Though these methods are legitimate, the easiest ways to break are:
1. Extra long blocks or blocks that are only 4" wide.
2. Blocks supported at the very ends.
3. Spacers between blocks and let weight do the work after breaking the top block.

Toughest methods for breaking blocks:
1. No spacers
2. Blocks lying on a flat, smooth surface.
3. Blocks held against a flat, smooth wall.

A couple of other tricks to make breaking easier include:

1. Heat treating or firing bricks and tiles in a way to make them more brittle (actually underfiring is the easiest).
2. Inserting small, concealed shims between bricks or pavers to direct the force where you want it.

3. For breaking flat breaks, you can exploit very minor irregularities in the brick or the supporting surface so either:

a. Place a long brick or paver or other very brittle object on a slightly yielding or fliexible surface. The subtle flex in the support on impact allows the more brittle object on top to break.

b. The brick or paver is supported by the ends creating a slight, almost imperceptible gap under the center, or...

c. The brick sits on a slight bulge and rocks a bit. Then by holding don one end at the moment of the break, the other end lifts up a tiny bit and then slaps back down and snaps.

Here's some examples that may use method 3b... using a slight gap under the middle of the paver... although such a break could equally be done with the 3a method as well. You'd have to check out the supporting surface to be sure. Watch the center of the paver drop and the edges lift when broken. This couldn't happen on a truly flat, solid surface as concrete doesn't compress that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKLprlpfstI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FRGq_mYZFg&feature=related

Now here's another impressive, "selective" flat-break clearly demonstrating method 3c Watch how the demonstrator presses down on the right edge of the bricks with his fingers as he performs the break. Now watch how that causes the bottom brick to rise up a bit on the opposite side and then slap back down... a really good trick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFVDr2Rs74&feature=related

Now I know these methods work since I've succeeded pulling them off myself, and even wrote an article about them back in the '80s. I never got very good at them though, and my hats off to guys like Dale who can do these things well.

[EarthDragon]

sny7
this is close as I can get to your request, this is John newberry my kung fu brother perfroming a extremly diffucult break forma blck hanging by a string

6364

[HumbleWCGuy]

There is something to breaking in terms of the conditioning, practice, and technique. An untrained breaker is not as good as a trained one, but all this qi talk is just talk.

I think breaking can be a nice confidence builder and a small demonstration of technique, but sheesh. Let's stop fooling ourselves and the paying public and move on.

[EarthDragon]

when will people understand qi is everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need qi to tie your shoes, its not mystical its not super powers its called "energy" the simple life force,

the more you practice and concentrate it the stronger it becomes and the more it flows plain and simple, so YES you use qi to break, you also use to to get up in the morning.

[mickey]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58558

[mooyingmantis]

Here is an interesting break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxhYDvXdGk

I saw Rod demonstrate this at his seminar in Cincinnati, OH a few months ago.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

when will people understand qi is everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need qi to tie your shoes, its not mystical its not super powers its called "energy" the simple life force,

the more you practice and concentrate it the stronger it becomes and the more it flows plain and simple, so YES you use qi to break, you also use to to get up in the morning.

Thank you
that what I was saying!!
QI means energy....qi qong just teaches you how to concentrate the energy more and make it stronger!

[IronFist]

Thank you
that what I was saying!!
QI means energy....qi qong just teaches you how to concentrate the energy more and make it stronger!

Are you serious? I've never seen a break that couldn't be done without all the mystic qi stuff. Can someone post a link to a vid of a break that involves qi manipulation to the extent that it couldn't be done with only physical conditioning and physics?

All the fancy warmups the people do before they break, that may be to psyche themselves up (nothing wrong with that, I fully understand the need to get into the right headspace before a big athletic performance), but it's not manipulating the qi in a way that would prevent them from doing the break without it.

This is true for the legit breaks. It's especially ultra super mega true for the charlatans (the ones who are using physics and parlor tricks).

How are you "concentrating the energy" or "making it stronger"? Focusing the mind isn't qi. Psyching yourself up isn't qi. Are you saying you're actually moving qi into the hands or something for the break which is somehow allowing the practitioner to do things that he wouldn't otherwise be able to do?

I'm not saying I'm 100% right and you guys are wrong. I'm saying, show me an example that proves I'm wrong, because I've never seen any breaks or other qi demos (iron body, etc.) that couldn't be duplicated entirely with physical conditioning and application of physics.

Some possible examples that would help me believe that qi is actually playing a role here:

- breaking using qi with a very soft touch that is not hard enough to break the bricks. Use the power of qi to break the bricks instead (the "egg in the hand break" doesn't fall into this category; you're still hitting the brick hard which is causing it to break).

- an iron body demonstration where the guy gets hit in the gut with a sledge hammer (or punch or kick, but I know they like to use sledge hammers for these demos) where the guy doesn't need to flex his abs to absorb the blow. I've heard this is possible before, but in all the iron body demos I've seen, the guy was tensing every muscle in his body at the moment of impact. Don't get me wrong; that's how you absorb a blow. But I want to see it done with qi. Bonus points if it's a skinny guy who doesn't have an additional layer of protection from fat :D

[EarthDragon]

here ya go IF this is a break that uses more focused qi and less power than most breaks, this is Rod aka teesao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxhYDvXdGk

[LFJ]

here ya go IF this is a break that uses more focused qi and less power than most breaks, this is Rod aka teesao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxhYDvXdGk

Huh? Focused qi?

The description explains this one:

"This is a true demonstration of vibrating short power. There is about a 3" distance traveled with no wind up, but instead power alliteration through a compressing strike."

[wenshu]

The description explains this one:


but instead power alliteration through a compressing strike."

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/files/assets/000/004/004/header_wide/you-keep-using-that-word-trial-and-error-header.gif

[EarthDragon]

Huh? Focused qi?

The description explains this one:

"This is a true demonstration of vibrating short power. There is about a 3" distance traveled with no wind up, but instead power alliteration through a compressing strike."

correct, and this cannot be done without mental , phsyical and energy focus. notice his left hand summoning up the qi from the dantien.

[EarthDragon]

heres an IP demo done at my school kung fu USA in Buffalo NY. Now if you think qi is NOT used, try to do this on your own and see if your welt mark looks anything like his, notice the dissipation of blood in the bone of the fingers. I can assure you if you just hit someones back with no qi focused with it, the welt will just be solid red. Nuff said



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PbIyqDVTo&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Breaking is fun and people do it because it is cool.
Just the simple.
It has nothing to do with fighting skill or anything else, it is just a fun thing to do.
If people want to fake it then it is THEIR problem.
Don't make to much out of it OR make to little either.

[pateticorecords]

Fight Science had an interesting take on all of this;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KArX8iNnY4Q

[LFJ]

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/files/assets/000/004/004/header_wide/you-keep-using-that-word-trial-and-error-header.gif

It was an interesting word choice, but not mine, lol. It's in the video description posted by the uploader.

[LFJ]

Huh? Focused qi?

The description explains this one:

"This is a true demonstration of vibrating short power. There is about a 3" distance traveled with no wind up, but instead power alliteration through a compressing strike." correct, and this cannot be done without mental , phsyical and energy focus. notice his left hand summoning up the qi from the dantien.

That's not at all what the description says. It has nothing to do with qi.

As for his left hand, I saw it hike his pants up. Then he simply held it in a neutral guard position.

There was no "summoning up the qi from the dantian". :rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

wow are people really ignorant, educate yourselves just a little before you post then people with knoweldge will make more sense.

will how do you vibrate or breath if it has nothing to do with qi? qi means "life force" the energy that give life, so to say qi has nothign to do it with means that brightness and heat have nothing to do with the sun.

perhaps peopel need to understand what qi is so it will help them realize that you need qi to live, without qi your dead. Do you now understand what qi is? so if you tie your shows, think, breath, walk or break bricks it is all done with conciousness
which is?????????? ..................qi

[Taixuquan99]

IF one wants to use qi as an explanatory model, then the translation of qi as energy is not a good translation, as the usage of qi in TMC is not made up of a division between matter and energy, as it is in the Western paradigm.

In short, using qi as an explanatory model does not mean that if the qi is refined, then body mechanics do not matter. In fact, it means the opposite, if qi is refined, then the body mechanics will naturally be optimized, and that one requires the other. To choose body mechanics that are not optimal for conveying kinetic energy would be counter to having good chi.

If you are not efficient in managing kinetic energy, potential energy, gravitic, whatever the energies often used in fighting in all styles, then the odds of being a master at utilizing some metaphysical energy unknown to the rest seem questionable.

That said, since the definition of qi is holistic, describing a energy/matter whole, then it is congruence between matter and energy that defines good chi, so mechanics that best manage all the forces involved in a fight, in a martial usage, within the context of a human body(without being destructive to the practitioner) that describes having chi.

I know this is hard to take when you either believe in mystical, versus philosophical, Taoism, or when you want to debunk something based on the usage by mystical Taoism, and wish to avoid the other uses that also happen to have existed at the same time as the mystical explanation. But it is the only definition that holds up. Separating the energy from the matter, the conveyance of power from the structure that conveys it, is incorrect. Internal styles do not do this in function, they merely tend to approach learning it from the energy aspect, learn the proper structure by learning the way energy, kinetic, potential, and gravitic, travel through the human frame. Of course, without another person's energy input, there is no good way to learn applying this to fighting. Judo also does this, often in ways that internalists could learn a lot from. BJJ also does this. Most wrestling arts, in fact, require this. I know I'm saying nothing new.

[Taixuquan99]

wow are people really ignorant, educate yourselves just a little before you post then people with knoweldge will make more sense.

will how do you vibrate or breath if it has nothing to do with qi? qi means "life force" the energy that give life, so to say qi has nothign to do it with means that brightness and heat have nothing to do with the sun.

perhaps peopel need to understand what qi is so it will help them realize that you need qi to live, without qi your dead. Do you now understand what qi is? so if you tie your shows, think, breath, walk or break bricks it is all done with conciousness
which is?????????? ..................qi

Without the frame, qi cannot equate to life. There is no division. Distinction is only made for the sake of discussion. As to consciousness=qi, I am not familiar with any classical source that says this, though, since there is no distinction, they are related phenomenon. One can lead the other.

[IronFist]

here ya go IF this is a break that uses more focused qi and less power than most breaks, this is Rod aka teesao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmxhYDvXdGk

Looks like body mechanics to me. Notice he's putting his whole weight behind it. That was like the vertical breaking equivalent of a 3" punch (which is also 100% physics and 0% mystical power, and just uses proper mechanics to put a lot of weight behind the punch).

Don't get me wrong; that was an impressive break. That dude has good conditioning. I've randomly come across his videos on YouTube before and thought he was pretty good.

Can you explain what role the qi is playing in that break? Is it going into the brick and causing the strike to have more force than it would have if he didn't use qi?

Good physical conditioning? Yes.

Good mental conditioning (confidence)? Yes.

Good mental focus? Yes.

Proper body mechanics? Yes.

Mystic energy assisting with the break or causing the break to have more power than it would otherwise? Are you saying this one is a "yes," too?

[Taixuquan99]

Looks like body mechanics to me. Notice he's putting his whole weight behind it. That was like the vertical breaking equivalent of a 3" punch (which is also 100% physics and 0% mystical power, and just uses proper mechanics to put a lot of weight behind the punch).

Don't get me wrong; that was an impressive break. That dude has good conditioning. I've randomly come across his videos on YouTube before and thought he was pretty good.

Can you explain what role the qi is playing in that break? Is it going into the brick and causing the strike to have more force than it would have if he didn't use qi?

Good physical conditioning? Yes.

Good mental conditioning (confidence)? Yes.

Good mental focus? Yes.

Proper body mechanics? Yes.

Mystic energy assisting with the break or causing the break to have more power than it would otherwise? Are you saying this one is a "yes," too?

You are assigning one definition of qi, also the one that presumes the existence of later Western philosophical arguments in ancient China.

Chi is not separate from what you have listed, but to assign the definition of body mechanics to chi is not apt. One COULD argue that chi is the RESULT of good body mechanics, but not body mechanics themselves. Good body mechanics without good physical condition would limit what one would say was good chi in a context, so even this adjusted definition, chi as the result of good body mechanics, fails. Good body mechanics applied in the wrong context would also fail to support this definition. As such, the definition is a reference to a whole that includes a number of factors, and utterly lacks an equivalent in English, unless you know a useful word, easier to say, that describes the holistic cross reference of how body mechanics, conditioning, knowledge, and entrainment allow optimal reserves of energy for usage and optimal conveyance of that energy.

No classical scholar translates, without serious qualifiers, chi as "energy".*


*Unless they are assuming that their readers are aware of the subtleties of the term.

[IronFist]

You guys, when we say "these breaks aren't using qi" we're not talking about breath or consciousness or intent. Obviously the practitioners are breathing.

We're saying there is no mystic energy that is giving the practitioner more power than he would have otherwise, and that the breaks are occurring simply as a result of impact physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_%28mechanics%29)

Similarly, we are saying that in iron body demonstrations, there is no mystic energy that is giving added protection to the practitioner. He is absorbing the sledge hammer (or whatever) blows through muscle tension and physics.

Obviously there is a mental component here. It definitely helps to "be in the right headspace" when you're going to do a break or absorb a big blow. But "being in the right headspace" is also not qi.

We are looking for some example of qi (as mystic energy) that is adding a non-physical component to one of these feats.

Don't get me wrong; I would love for this qi stuff to be legit. In fact, I practiced iron body (complete with qigong component) for years a while back. I wanted so badly to believe that I was using mystic energy or whatever to make myself stronger and more resistant to damage. But in the end, I really think it was just physical conditioning and being in the right headspace. I've never experienced or seen anything in other's demonstrations that leads me to believe it's anything other than physical conditioning and physics.

I never did iron palm, but I suspect it's the same way.

I don't know. I'm getting off topic. My original point with this thread was that it ****es me off when people who are obviously doing parlor tricks *coughShaolinMonkscough* pass it off as qi and mystic energy to attempt to fool the public into believing they have some sort of super powers. That kills the martial arts' credibility, and it's bad enough when it comes from some "no touch knockout" fool on the news, but when it's from the Shaolin Monks, who most people would assume are legit, it's like 10x worse.

[md1]

This guy also does granite, too. (but look how far apart the supports are: leverage advantage????)

How strong is granite? I know everyone loves it for their counter tops in their kitchen. Is it hard to break?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvtOOPFkGg&feature=related

For the record breacking granite like that is not very hard because it is thin and brittle. looks good though because everyone thinks granite is so hard... but Rocks are much weaker in tension than in compression.
To be honest none of those breaks are done with actual brick (which are much smaller and harder) and they are definitely not block, they are 2' slabs and the ones with color in them are softer than the ones with out.

I do break the slabs and love watching breaking (Dale does a great job)

would love to see someone slap through an actual block one day... guess if you wanted to show me real chi power then take a fire brick and drill a finger through it with your energy.

[LFJ]

wow are people really ignorant, educate yourselves just a little before you post then people with knoweldge will make more sense.

will how do you vibrate or breath if it has nothing to do with qi? qi means "life force" the energy that give life, so to say qi has nothign to do it with means that brightness and heat have nothing to do with the sun.

perhaps peopel need to understand what qi is so it will help them realize that you need qi to live, without qi your dead. Do you now understand what qi is? so if you tie your shows, think, breath, walk or break bricks it is all done with conciousness
which is?????????? ..................qi

You say qi is "life force", the energy that gives life. You then also say consciousness is qi. You say one needs this "energy" and "consciousness" to live and perform acts like tying your shoes, thinking, breathing, walking, or breaking bricks.

So in short you are saying you must be alive to break bricks.

I don't know how I can argue with that.

According to your logic, even when one does not "summon qi from the dantian" and merely uses physics to perform a brick break, you still attribute that ability to "qi" rather than physics alone.

So every break is a "qi break" because the person is alive and couldn't perform the break without qi because "without qi you're dead".

You win every time.

[Punch.HeadButt]

Don't get me wrong; I would love for this qi stuff to be legit. In fact, I practiced iron body (complete with qigong component) for years a while back. I wanted so badly to believe that I was using mystic energy or whatever to make myself stronger and more resistant to damage. But in the end, I really think it was just physical conditioning and being in the right headspace. I've never experienced or seen anything in other's demonstrations that leads me to believe it's anything other than physical conditioning and physics.

By my limited understanding of Iron Body qigong, the idea of using your qi has nothing to do with anything mystical. The simple act of putting your mental focus on the area being struck is what supplements it with energy (whatever you want to call that energy is up to you) and aids in the development of the body's conditioning. This can be said to some degree about really anything...placing all your mind's attention on a strike as it impacts, for example. It's just the act of guiding more energy to an area when it needs it with mental direction. People do this all the time in various activities, whether or not they've even heard of qi. We're all familiar with what you get out of a training session you've placed all your attention on, as opposed to what you get out of a session that you waltzed through while your mind was a million miles away...even if you did the exact same routine.

It may be just one aspect of the very general term "qi", but I think it's a valid one.

[Taixuquan99]

Iron Fist

Sigh.

Again, you are missing the point. The definition you use is, flat out, not relevant to traditional usage of the term qi. If, in presenting a more involved definition that more closely matches classical sources, I will use it, and if you are not familiar with it, then I'm not sure I will put much stock in it if you tell me that I'm the one not getting it.

I am not in the business of rooting out fraud, the skeptics who champion that inevitably fall into making their victories and their role into something more than it ever was, which is just more fraud, more BS, and no real overall change. Arthur Conan Doyle and Houdini are dead, and psychics are probably "channeling" them as we speak.

If you do not understand the terms you are using, and a historically accurate definition also happens to be at odds with a misuse of the term that you object to, I would think, at the very least, you would recognize the value of a more informed opinion on what its usage normally is, for the very least to inform your own debate.

You used the term qi erroneously, many do. By using solely the definition of frauds and the uninformed, I think it strange that you expect to do anything but empower them.

I have been in scores of kung fu schools, none of which did breaking demos, even if most did some sort of iron bridge or iron hand. Your argument unintentionally exaggerates the problem, the exaggeration then seeming to justify the cause. Breaking demos don't make kung fu schools ineffective. Even fraudulent ones don't. Not training for usage against diverse opponents does. End of story.

Your kung fu teacher told you the meaning of the word qi. Classical sources, as well as a number of Chinese, American, and Japanese authorities on ancient and classical China, told me. I'm not crazy with what people nowadays think they can do with chi, but I'm also not crazy with what people think is liberal, or conservative, or a host of other misused terms. You asked for whether chi or physics was involved, I assumed this would include ACTUAL scholarly usage of the word chi, which makes a tougher argument, since it does not translate simply as "energy".

[LFJ]

You guys, when we say "these breaks aren't using qi" we're not talking about breath or consciousness or intent. Obviously the practitioners are breathing.

We're saying there is no mystic energy that is giving the practitioner more power than he would have otherwise, and that the breaks are occurring simply as a result of impact physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_%28mechanics%29)

Don't know why that is so hard to grasp.

[Taixuquan99]

A divide between qi and physics is not implicated by the classical term qi, period. It's called a vexed question. If you want to disprove qi as a traditional concept, you need familiarity with the concept, and you flat out do not have it.

You're arguing for the elbow to the back of the head as a defense to the double leg. Congratulations, a fine irony.

[Taixuquan99]

To illustrate, if you suggest that by consuming food(matter) you convert it to energy needed to break a board using the minimum energy needed(energy again in context of matter) by using the proper body mechanics(being a means of relating matter and energy), and this involves good structure(again, matter using energy in pattern to an optimal performance), you have not debunked chi, you have pretty much stated the classical definition of chi recognized still today.

[IronFist]

Watch the video in the first post:


..."the most mysterious power of kung fu is called qigong. Through breathing and a series of systematic movements, qigong products a type of energy called qi.

Once you can freely direct this energy to a particular part of the body, you can produce enormous power.

Used correctly, qi can make any part of the body as hard as steel."


Do you think he is talking about "breathing" or "consciousness," or "intent" or "focus?" No. He is talking about mystic power, something that goes above and beyond simple physics. And he is talking about moving that mystic energy to specific body parts in order to make them "as hard as steel" (read: make them more able to withstand damage).

I am asking for an actual example of this, eg. where the resistance to damage is not the result of physical conditioning but instead is the result of "directing [qi] to a particular part of the body."

[IronFist]

To illustrate, if you suggest that by consuming food(matter) you convert it to energy needed to break a board using the minimum energy needed(energy again in context of matter) by using the proper body mechanics(being a means of relating matter and energy), and this involves good structure(again, matter using energy in pattern to an optimal performance), you have not debunked chi, you have pretty much stated the classical definition of chi recognized still today.

Are you serious with this?

I guess all power lifters are qigong masters, too, since they eat food which becomes muscle which makes them able to lift a lot of weight. And focusing their intent on lifting the weights when they're in the gym is another demonstration of their incredible qi power.

Get outta here with this http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

If this is the case, then it must suck to do CMA where you have to spend hours "training your qi" when every other athlete in the world does it subconsciously without even trying and without special qi development exercises.

[Taixuquan99]

Watch the video in the first post:



Do you think he is talking about "breathing" or "consciousness," or "intent" or "focus?" No. He is talking about mystic power, something that goes above and beyond simple physics. And he is talking about moving that mystic energy to specific body parts in order to make them "as hard as steel" (read: make them more able to withstand damage).

I am asking for an actual example of this, eg. where the resistance to damage is not the result of physical conditioning but instead is the result of "directing [qi] to a particular part of the body."

If you go to a college level political science class, you should not expect the definition of conservative or liberal to match the popular definition, because one is instructive, one is utilitarian, and the two uses have little common ground.

Now, a person may BE a true conservative in ways AND believe in aspects of the popular definition that may seem counter to that, this is a case of what they are versus what they believe, and it does not necessarily make them liars or frauds, merely contradictory as any other human.

Breaking works when it fulfills the classical definition of chi, regardless of what other beliefs the practitioners doing it ascribe to it. If they are not guiding a mystical energy to the hand, but the belief enables them to strike without unnecessary concern, then the belief is useful, utilitarian, one could even suggest expedient means. If they actually believe it, they cannot be termed a fraud, as that entails knowledge they may not have. If it is useful, then it cannot be termed a harm of any serious merit, either.

There is a difference between belief and fraud, and I find people who erase that line to be telling a falsehood for their own goals, which is not different than fraud.

As for wanting to fulfill the definition you state, it is not a Chinese definition, and so it is helpful to point that out, since that is the central topic. If more people knew the proper definition, less people would claim much about it.

[Punch.HeadButt]

If this is the case, then it must suck to do CMA where you have to spend hours "training your qi" when every other athlete in the world does it subconsciously without even trying and without special qi development exercises.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like these discussions always end up as semantic arguments.

[wenshu]

It was an interesting word choice, but not mine, lol. It's in the video description posted by the uploader.

Haha, sorry LFJ, I was trying to make it clear that I could see that by nesting the quotes. But yeah, I knew it wasn't your gaffe.

[IronFist]

If you go to a college level political science class, you should not expect the definition of conservative or liberal to match the popular definition, because one is instructive, one is utilitarian, and the two uses have little common ground.

Now, a person may BE a true conservative in ways AND believe in aspects of the popular definition that may seem counter to that, this is a case of what they are versus what they believe, and it does not necessarily make them liars or frauds, merely contradictory as any other human.

Breaking works when it fulfills the classical definition of chi, regardless of what other beliefs the practitioners doing it ascribe to it. If they are not guiding a mystical energy to the hand, but the belief enables them to strike without unnecessary concern, then the belief is useful, utilitarian, one could even suggest expedient means. If they actually believe it, they cannot be termed a fraud, as that entails knowledge they may not have. If it is useful, then it cannot be termed a harm of any serious merit, either.

There is a difference between belief and fraud, and I find people who erase that line to be telling a falsehood for their own goals, which is not different than fraud.

As for wanting to fulfill the definition you state, it is not a Chinese definition, and so it is helpful to point that out, since that is the central topic. If more people knew the proper definition, less people would claim much about it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it sounds like you're saying "qi is real, but it doesn't mean mystic energy, it just means breathing and consciousness."

So if that's the case, then all these Shaolin Monk demonstrations are fraudulent because it's not possible to breathe in your arm to make it hard like steel.

I can understand the original definition of "qi." Hundreds or thousands of years ago before anyone knew much about science, I could see people assigning a concept to "life force." X is alive, it has qi. Y is not alive, it doesn't have qi. When you eat something, you're absorbing its qi and its qi is becoming part of you (which is actually pretty correct with regard to molecular breakdown and how your body absorbs food).

I won't even argue against that definition because it's fine.

But people extend the definition of qi further into a tangible energy that can be moved around and used to "make the body as hard as steel," and that's what I'm either calling BS or or asking for proof of, because every "demonstration" of this I've seen has been the result of physical conditioning and physics (which may or may not include parlor tricks), and has nothing to do with moving energy around or qi (outside of the fact that the practitioner was alive and breathing and conscious during the demo, obviously). But it appears they want to fool the public into believing they have some sort of special power, and that is what makes the martial arts look bad.

But really, saying "well he was breathing and therefore he was using qi" doesn't disprove what I'm saying. Everyone in this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about, and that includes you.

[IronFist]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like these discussions always end up as semantic arguments.

Yeah, a few people in this thread have already started to do that. Hopefully I clarified in the post above this one.

[Taixuquan99]

Are you serious with this?

Absolutely.


I guess all power lifters are qigong masters, too, since they eat food which becomes muscle which makes them able to lift a lot of weight. And focusing their intent on lifting the weights when they're in the gym is another demonstration of their incredible qi power.

Not all, but, by the classical definition, those who are healthier for it, do it for the optimum health, eat healthy, and did other things to address other aspects of health and fitness that weights don't, would be healthy, and thus, have good chi. In performance, it might be limited to their specialty, but that would always be true no matter the specialty.


Get outta here with this http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

No.


If this is the case, then it must suck to do CMA where you have to spend hours "training your qi" when every other athlete in the world does it subconsciously without even trying and without special qi development exercises.

This is false in many ways.

First, because of the obsession in China with cultivation, it is true that many simple things get stretched out into endless regimens merely to maintain one teacher's authority. However, it is not universally the case, nor does it mean the many of the regimens do not have a core that, if allowed to, would rapidly convey expertise.

Second, most martial qigong relates closely to the way key techniques in the style play out, in exactly the way practicing swinging a bat relates to hitting in the batting cage or at the plate, or practicing a tennis swing, or any of the myriad or techniques in almost any other sport fill the same roll. A good batter does not become so subconsciously, sorry, you're pulling that out of your arse.

Third, many of those techniques are quite practical in their historical context, which may include such things as war and famine and repression. To train like a modern athlete in a time of famine, simply in order to maintain martial skill, would be suicide.

I think you are under the false idea that you know what you are talking about because a kung fu teacher said it. As I stated, martial artists aren't the most educated lot in any society.

[wenshu]

Are you serious with this?

I guess all power lifters are qigong masters, too, since they eat food which becomes muscle which makes them able to lift a lot of weight. And focusing their intent on lifting the weights when they're in the gym is another demonstration of their incredible qi power.

If this is the case, then it must suck to do CMA where you have to spend hours "training your qi" when every other athlete in the world does it subconsciously without even trying and without special qi development exercises.

Q to the E to the muther****ing D.

This is exactly the case. There is nothing mystical about it.

[wenshu]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it sounds like you're saying "qi is real, but it doesn't mean mystic energy, it just means breathing and consciousness."

So if that's the case, then all these Shaolin Monk demonstrations are fraudulent because it's not possible to breathe in your arm to make it hard like steel.

I can understand the original definition of "qi." Hundreds or thousands of years ago before anyone knew much about science, I could see people assigning a concept to "life force." X is alive, it has qi. Y is not alive, it doesn't have qi. When you eat something, you're absorbing its qi and its qi is becoming part of you (which is actually pretty correct with regard to molecular breakdown and how your body absorbs food).

I won't even argue against that definition because it's fine.

But people extend the definition of qi further into a tangible energy that can be moved around and used to "make the body as hard as steel," and that's what I'm either calling BS or or asking for proof of, because every "demonstration" of this I've seen has been the result of physical conditioning and physics (which may or may not include parlor tricks), and has nothing to do with moving energy around or qi (outside of the fact that the practitioner was alive and breathing and conscious during the demo, obviously). But it appears they want to fool the public into believing they have some sort of special power, and that is what makes the martial arts look bad.

But really, saying "well he was breathing and therefore he was using qi" doesn't disprove what I'm saying. Everyone in this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about, and that includes you.

Just to play devil's advocate but modern science has no consensual agreement on the definition of "life" in the first place.

[md1]

Breaking is really as simple as can you hit with more force than the Chosen material can withstand. Does anyone really feel that there is some mystical power that is breaking the stuff? Idk... not me. Physics plain and simple.

You can do all the chi gong you want but if you hit like a little kid you're not breaking anything but your hand.

[Taixuquan99]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it sounds like you're saying "qi is real, but it doesn't mean mystic energy, it just means breathing and consciousness."

Please point to where I say either of these. I respond to someone who equates one with the other by refuting it. I have been clear in saying that I am discussing the scholar's definition of chi for the last two millennium, and that the description, aside from lacking knowledge of biochemistry to explain the way energy is obtained from food, is often neither used to convey mystical powers nor at odds with much of what we still experience as normal body functioning.


So if that's the case, then all these Shaolin Monk demonstrations are fraudulent because it's not possible to breathe in your arm to make it hard like steel.

That's a terrible argument. First, it's apparently based on something I didn't assert. Second, it makes no sense from even that straw man. Third, I suspect it equates some common analogies used in qi gong erroneously. I am assuming that it refers to the idea that, if in a tight spot, inhaling can often release the pressure, but this is a case of inhaling changing the shoulder placement subtly, which can then free a limb. I'm only guessing that's what you're getting at, because your question is not clear.


I can understand the original definition of "qi." Hundreds or thousands of years ago before anyone knew much about science, I could see people assigning a concept to "life force."

Your second sentence there disproves your first. No authority on the subject would pass a paper based on your analysis, because it is based on what you heard from some dude online.


X is alive, it has qi. Y is not alive, it doesn't have qi.

Ack


When you eat something, you're absorbing its qi and its qi is becoming part of you (which is actually pretty correct with regard to molecular breakdown and how your body absorbs food).

And the quality of that food relates to the ability to feel healthy, which is also apt.


I won't even argue against that definition because it's fine.

It's about the only definition. Just because you find a guy on youtube who differs doesn't change that, nor does it give much credence to making others prove his statement, or disagreeing with a guy who essentially is also disagreeing with the youtube explanation, but not agreeing with you enough, apparently. Despite the fact that you have no particular actual knowledge of the classical topic.



But people extend the definition of qi further into a tangible energy that can be moved around and used to "make the body as hard as steel," and that's what I'm either calling BS or or asking for proof of, because every "demonstration" of this I've seen has been the result of physical conditioning and physics (which may or may not include parlor tricks), and has nothing to do with moving energy around or qi (outside of the fact that the practitioner was alive and breathing and conscious during the demo, obviously). But it appears they want to fool the public into believing they have some sort of special power, and that is what makes the martial arts look bad.

If they believe it, and many do, they are not frauds. That's a dishonest distinction. And, if it allows the break, even if not for the reasons they think, then it is not a bad practice. You are making a dishonest statement and then chiding others for dishonesty.


But really, saying "well he was breathing and therefore he was using qi" doesn't disprove what I'm saying.

It's funny how often I have to answer things I never said just because I think you set up a bit of a straw man expecting everybody to prove one guy's statements when most don't necessarily share that view, even when having the same practice.


Everyone in this thread knows exactly what I'm talking about, and that includes you.

I'd say we don't, because you think we're talking about frauds, and I think you're talking about frauds and the misinformed and those who simply do some breaking and iron hand and don't ascribe anything supernatural to it, but avoiding the latter two because it doesn't mean you get to be the heroic online fraud fighter saving kung fu, sorry.

As I said, fighting frauds is a fraud's game, I just like to train, and I have never seen the great fraud fighter manage to do anything useful by their efforts, except avoid reality so that things can be black and white, which is fraud. The reality is, all kung fu schools do some iron hand, a much smaller number do demos of it. This is the opposite of the situation you seem to be describing, and yet you know it's true.

And you're arguing with someone who disagrees with what you disagree with, but is smart enough to do so based on classical usage of the term that is still the accepted definition, whereas you use a guy on youtube.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, if someone is saying that QI is a mystical "force-like" thing that can be cultivated and harnessed and used much like a Jedi would, then they are full of it and are trying to sell you something AND have no notion of what QI meant to those that originated the term.

IF, on the other hand, the person is using the term "QI" as a term that designates perfect physical/mental union, then that is something else.
IF the person is saying that in ancient times, with their lack of the complete picture of how things worked that they would attribute certain"out of the ordinary" skills to QI, then that is fine too.

[IronFist]

Just to play devil's advocate but modern science has no consensual agreement on the definition of "life" in the first place.

Yeah I know, but it understands how energy is absorbed from the food we eat. I was just saying that I understand how man in the past may have associated qi with life, or breath, or life energy (eg. that which the living has and that which is dead does not have), or any combination of those.

That's fine. Under that example, breathing is qi, eating is bringing in qi, sure, I fully agree.

What our friend Taixuquan99 doesn't seem to be able to elaborate on is:

1) how is this life force/breathing/living energy qi moved around in the body to make parts of the body "as hard as steel"?

2) or, if that is an incorrect definition of qi (because qi simply means living energy and is not something tangible that can be moved around in the body to make the body "as hard as steel,"), why all these nutso, frauds, and charlatans continue to describe it as such?

There is a bunch of semantic side stepping going on in here (which tends to be a defensive argument strategy; you're disproving me, therefore I will change the definition of the words you use, therefore I'm no longer disproved).

So I'll make this real easy:

@Taixuquan99:

1) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, can be "moved around in the body" and used to "make the body as hard as steel?"

2) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, plays a role in protecting the body from damage beyond what is done by physical conditioning and physics in these breaks/demos? (by saying "yes" to this, you are basically saying "those bricks would not have broken if he just hit them without first moving the qi into his hand")

3) do you believe it is possible to perform demos using only qi and not physical conditioning, such as taking a sledge hammer blow to the stomach without flexing the abs (being protected only by qi)?

4) do you believe the Shaolin Monks in the video in the first post were being deceptive when they attributed their parlor tricks to being able to "direct the qi to a particular part of the body" to "make it as hard as steel?"

Seriously, enough of these semantic games.

"well, that depends on what your definition of 'is' is" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[md1]

I think that, if someone is saying that QI is a mystical "force-like" thing that can be cultivated and harnessed and used much like a Jedi would, then they are full of it and are trying to sell you something AND have no notion of what QI meant to those that originated the term.

IF, on the other hand, the person is using the term "QI" as a term that designates perfect physical/mental union, then that is something else.
IF the person is saying that in ancient times, with their lack of the complete picture of how things worked that they would attribute certain"out of the ordinary" skills to QI, then that is fine too.

Exactly!!

Don't forget the world was Flat once! lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly!!

Don't forget the world was Flat once! lol

Indeed.
The other thing we need to realize is that, when what a "qi master" does is done by someone with NO "qi training" whatsoever, what does that tell us?
That either "qi training" was not needed OR that "qi training" is far more universal than we think it is and that SOME people want people to believe it is.

[IronFist]

If they believe it, and many do, they are not frauds. That's a dishonest distinction. And, if it allows the break, even if not for the reasons they think, then it is not a bad practice. You are making a dishonest statement and then chiding others for dishonesty.

Let me make sure I understand you.

Are you saying that if people believe they are using mystical energy to do their breaks, even if they are not actually using it, but if they believe they are, then it's not a bad practice?

Well that raises an interesting point.

I could take someone with no training and get them to replicate some of what the monks did within a few minutes (breaking bricks on a step, kicking the vertical concrete slabs above the midpoint and into a corner). These tricks involve very little conditioning, and definitely no directing or moving mystical energy around in the body.

Some of the other stuff does require physical conditioning. For example, the forearm breaks, even tho they are basically parlor tricks (the stick breaks because of inertia and where it was hit, not because there is qi in the guy's arm making it "as hard as steel"), requires conditioning, because getting hit in an unconditioned forearm hurts!

So let's say I take Joe Schmoe off the street and teach him to do those breaks.

If I add a qigong component and cause him to believe that it is necessary to do the breaks (eg. "hey Joe Schmoe, you are using your qi to do these breaks, and you have to imagine qi moving from your dan tian into your foot before you kick this concrete slab or it won't work"), wouldn't that make me kind of a crack pot teacher?

So then Joe Schmoe posts a video online of his "qi power breaks."

I suppose in this case, he is not being deliberately misleading, since he actually believes the qigong component is necessary to do the breaks.

So I guess technically I couldn't label Joe Schmoe as a fraud in this case, since he's not intentionally defrauding anyone.

So if that's what you meant, then I agree with you.


On the other hand, if these performers know it's bunk and are just trying to make the general public believe they have special powers (ego???), then that is most certainly fraud.

Hopefully this clarifies.

[teetsao]

here is a pretty good demo f qi manipulation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fc0bI5CPuk

[IronFist]

And on a related note, even if mystic power can be moved around in the body and can make your body "as hard as steel," (which I have not ever seen a demonstration of, but would not entirely discredit since I don't claim to know everything), if it cannot be done near instantly, I don't see the benefit for fighting. What are you going to say, "hold on, opponent, I see that you can kick very hard. Give me 10 seconds to move my qi around so that I am ready to take your kick to my stomach," or "hold on, dude, I can crack your skull with a single blow, but I need 10 seconds to move my arms around first and get my qi flowing into my palm in order to do so, so please stay bent over until I am ready"?

In that case, it would still be cool for demos, and very cool as far as unlocking the secrets of the human body goes, but it would still be useless for fighting.

I believe all the breaks we've seen in this thread, and every break and iron body demo I've seen in my entire life, has been the result of physical conditioning and physics, and had nothing to do with moving energy around to make the body "as hard as steel." I believe the warm ups, the moving the hands around (to "direct the qi" or whatever), the preparation and breathing, is to get the practitioner mentally ready, and in that regard is a necessary component. Watch a power lifter before he makes a lift. He'll take a moment to "get in the zone." It helps. It has nothing to do with qi, it's just a little ritual to prepare oneself. Clear the mind. Visual the break (or the lift, or whatever you're about to do). Studies have shown that thinking about doing something fires the same neurons in the brain as actually doing it, thus it yields increased neurological efficiency. The iron palm guys who perform the motion slowly a few times before actually breaking the brick are doing the same thing. This is legit and helpful, but they're not moving their qi around; they're just getting their head in the game.

Cliffs Notes:

a) getting your head in the game - yes
b) physical conditioning - yes
c) mental preparation - yes
d) proper physics and body mechanics - yes
e) confidence - yes
f) moving energy around in the body to make it "as hard as steel" - no

Now, wait for people to come say that A through E are qi, and therefore these breaks are using qi http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[IronFist]

here is a pretty good demo f qi manipulation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fc0bI5CPuk

I had heard those guys kept heating pads in their pockets or used some warming chemicals, etc. (parlor tricks).

If he is legit, James Randi will pay him $1,000,000.
http://www.randi.org/research/

I know, I know, he can't use his powers for personal gain or benefit :rolleyes:

(he could get the money and donate it to charity)

[Taixuquan99]

Yeah I know, but it understands how energy is absorbed from the food we eat. I was just saying that I understand how man in the past may have associated qi with life, or breath, or life energy (eg. that which the living has and that which is dead does not have)

Bleck.

If the above is an accurate description of the belief that you say you understand, then how is chi obtained from dead chicken flesh?

In other words, you don't know what the classical definition, which is the only one that was EVER of concern in the topic, is. Just admit it. Again, how many historians have you spoken with on this topic? I'm thinking I've talked to upward of fifteen, and I'm not as smug as you on my awareness of the subtleties of the idea, and you don't seem to know anything about except how some dude in DesMoines defines it.


What our friend Taixuquan99 doesn't seem to be able to elaborate on is:

1) how is this life force/breathing/living energy qi moved around in the body to make parts of the body "as hard as steel"?

As I specified BEFORE, by the classical definition, which included body mechanics, condition, etc, it would be done EXACTLY as you expect, through kinetic energy, potential energy, and ability to adopt and modify structure. It is the expression of function and health that comes closest to the definition of chi, not a separate idea or an unnamed energy that is distinct from matter. And yet you again propose that it is distinct by the form of your question.

If you continue this way, you must provide a link showing how the mind-body paradigm of Western philosophy made it to China 2500 years ago. Best get started.


2) or, if that is an incorrect definition of qi (because qi simply means living energy

Since I never described it as such, I don't need to. You have yet to once describe it in a way that suggests you've read one classical source.


and is not something tangible that can be moved around in the body to make the body "as hard as steel,"), why all these nutso, frauds, and charlatans continue to describe it as such?

Because frauds say anything. However, some people believe these things as well. This is hardly my concern.


There is a bunch of semantic side stepping going on in here (which tends to be a defensive argument strategy; you're disproving me, therefore I will change the definition of the words you use, therefore I'm no longer disproved).

Actually, I've made the case that the original claims are wrong, and you are wrong, in the first three posts. Additionally, you apply an argument that essentially matches one reading of the definition of chi, and support it as true, proving the classical definition right by your own standards.

My main interest in the topic is in the classical definition of the term, which is topical. As a holistic model, it is adequate, but I could care less about whether there is such an energy, as all the descriptions read to me as though discussing a convergence of real world things. However, since my degree included a lot of related material, I must suggest that, if you use a non-existent definition, cited without being able to quote a single authority using that definition, you might find yourself in a discussion of semantics, by your own error.



Taixuquan99:

1) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, can be "moved around in the body" and used to "make the body as hard as steel?"

No.


2) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, plays a role in protecting the body from damage beyond what is done by physical conditioning and physics in these breaks/demos? (by saying "yes" to this, you are basically saying "those bricks would not have broken if he just hit them without first moving the qi into his hand")

No.


3) do you believe it is possible to perform demos using only qi and not physical conditioning, such as taking a sledge hammer blow to the stomach without flexing the abs (being protected only by qi)?

Tiring. Again, by ANY DEFINITION OF CHI, IT IS A RELATION TO MATTER. MOVEMENT OR CHANGES IN CHI MEAN MOVEMENT OR CHANGES IN MATTER. Thus, one does not preclude the other. By the classical definition, doing it well through a practiced routine involves the holistic, which is as close to a definition of chi as one can apply here.


4) do you believe the Shaolin Monks in the video in the first post were being deceptive when they attributed their parlor tricks to being able to "direct the qi to a particular part of the body" to "make it as hard as steel?"

I cannot know what they believe. I've known a lot of people who did ip and did believe the same, often fervently believe. How can I know, in this case, what people I don't know think? If they believe it, I don't suspect they were being dishonest. If they didn't, perhaps they were. You can never trust Buddhists, what with expedient means and all. They might be doing something dishonest to do something honest. I hope you can put a stop to that.

[Taixuquan99]

Let me make sure I understand you.

Are you saying that if people believe they are using mystical energy to do their breaks, even if they are not actually using it, but if they believe they are, then it's not a bad practice?

Well that raises an interesting point.

I could take someone with no training and get them to replicate some of what the monks did within a few minutes (breaking bricks on a step, kicking the vertical concrete slabs above the midpoint and into a corner). These tricks involve very little conditioning, and definitely no directing or moving mystical energy around in the body.

Some of the other stuff does require physical conditioning. For example, the forearm breaks, even tho they are basically parlor tricks (the stick breaks because of inertia and where it was hit, not because there is qi in the guy's arm making it "as hard as steel"), requires conditioning, because getting hit in an unconditioned forearm hurts!

So let's say I take Joe Schmoe off the street and teach him to do those breaks.

If I add a qigong component and cause him to believe that it is necessary to do the breaks (eg. "hey Joe Schmoe, you are using your qi to do these breaks, and you have to imagine qi moving from your dan tian into your foot before you kick this concrete slab or it won't work"), wouldn't that make me kind of a crack pot teacher?

So then Joe Schmoe posts a video online of his "qi power breaks."

I suppose in this case, he is not being deliberately misleading, since he actually believes the qigong component is necessary to do the breaks.

So I guess technically I couldn't label Joe Schmoe as a fraud in this case, since he's not intentionally defrauding anyone.

So if that's what you meant, then I agree with you.


On the other hand, if these performers know it's bunk and are just trying to make the general public believe they have special powers (ego???), then that is most certainly fraud.

Hopefully this clarifies.

Largely, we are in agreement here, with some qualifiers.

If, to get someone to hit better in baseball, we teach them to visualize themselves doing so, as well as practice their swing and hit the cage often, while that visualizing does not teach them to hit, it does play a role in early successes.

However, later, after some expertise is gained, while batting, their mind will probably be on batting, and they won't use that as much.

Now, in the case of more concrete ideas, if that kid believed the power of Jesus was flowing down his bat, and became a great batter, and kept up the belief, he's still a great batter. Not a fraud, a bit nutty.

If a boxer kisses his cross...

These things become associated with success, but have no relation, but their presence is not a harm, either, and, at points, are useful to the person.

If Joe Schmoe teaches functional skills, and still has oddities about the training that may not add much, but he still teaches functional skills, then he's doing his job well. It is his class, and he can teach his beliefs if he likes, even if they are incorrect.

[mooyingmantis]

heres an IP demo done at my school kung fu USA in Buffalo NY. Now if you think qi is NOT used, try to do this on your own and see if your welt mark looks anything like his, notice the dissipation of blood in the bone of the fingers. I can assure you if you just hit someones back with no qi focused with it, the welt will just be solid red. Nuff said



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PbIyqDVTo&feature=related

I believe there is a more scientific explanation than Qi. Here is what I posted at YouTube under the video:

I believe the "skeleton" effect is due to the fact that the fingers were left pressed against the flesh after the strike. The strike combined with the continued pressure of the palm and fingers caused blood to be temporarily pushed out of the area. This also happens in corpses. Any area where there is pressure applied to the skin at death pushes blood out of the area and leaves a permanent white mark on the skin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing I will add:
IF, and this is a big if, Qi is "breath" or "air" then yes it can be moved and directed to certain body parts to make them more withstanding to strikes.
Just as it can be moved to the core to strenghten and stabalize it for a heavy lift.

[Taixuquan99]

One thing I will add:
IF, and this is a big if, Qi is "breath" or "air" then yes it can be moved and directed to certain body parts to make them more withstanding to strikes.
Just as it can be moved to the core to strenghten and stabalize it for a heavy lift.

I think a more accurate description would be that the diaphragm could be aligned so that inhaled breath repositions an extremity into a favorable position for the situation at hand, if I'm getting what you are saying. You don't literally move breath to your forearm, but, by the current position of your waist, inhalation causes a motion that leads up that shoulder and down that arm, for example, facilitating a useful structure. If we're talking about the same thing.

[IronFist]

I believe there is a more scientific explanation than Qi. Here is what I posted at YouTube under the video:

I believe the "skeleton" effect is due to the fact that the fingers were left pressed against the flesh after the strike. The strike combined with the continued pressure of the palm and fingers caused blood to be temporarily pushed out of the area. This also happens in corpses. Any area where there is pressure applied to the skin at death pushes blood out of the area and leaves a permanent white mark on the skin.

I have left red welt marks in the shape of my hand on my gf's ass during sex. I did notice once that the welts were white inside in some places, similar to that video. I was probably squeezing her ass after I smacked it.

Maybe it's a good thing I don't do iron palm.

Sorry I'm not gonna post any vids of this :p

[IronFist]

One thing I will add:
IF, and this is a big if, Qi is "breath" or "air" then yes it can be moved and directed to certain body parts to make them more withstanding to strikes.
Just as it can be moved to the core to strenghten and stabalize it for a heavy lift.

How do I move breath into my forearms?


I think a more accurate description would be that the diaphragm could be aligned so that inhaled breath repositions an extremity into a favorable position for the situation at hand, if I'm getting what you are saying. You don't literally move breath to your forearm, but, by the current position of your waist, inhalation causes a motion that leads up that shoulder and down that arm, for example. If we're talking about the same thing.

At least Taixuquan99's explanation here makes sense.

I like to have air in my lungs when I am getting hit. It feels better and provides more cushion. Is it qi energy? Not really. It's just air. It's the same reason I take a deep breath and flex my abs during a squat or deadlift. More intra-abdominal pressure = more stability. In fact, that is why powerlifting coaches teach the technique like that.

If I was gonna do an iron body forearm demo I would also take a deep breath (stability) and have my body is the most structurally sound position I could to help provide stability and absorb the force.

But no energy gets moved into my forearm.

This is not mystic energy.

[mooyingmantis]

Let me make sure I understand you.

Are you saying that if people believe they are using mystical energy to do their breaks, even if they are not actually using it, but if they believe they are, then it's not a bad practice?

Well that raises an interesting point....So let's say I take Joe Schmoe off the street and teach him to do those breaks.

If I add a qigong component and cause him to believe that it is necessary to do the breaks (eg. "hey Joe Schmoe, you are using your qi to do these breaks, and you have to imagine qi moving from your dan tian into your foot before you kick this concrete slab or it won't work"), wouldn't that make me kind of a crack pot teacher?

So then Joe Schmoe posts a video online of his "qi power breaks."

I suppose in this case, he is not being deliberately misleading, since he actually believes the qigong component is necessary to do the breaks.

So I guess technically I couldn't label Joe Schmoe as a fraud in this case, since he's not intentionally defrauding anyone.

So if that's what you meant, then I agree with you.


On the other hand, if these performers know it's bunk and are just trying to make the general public believe they have special powers (ego???), then that is most certainly fraud.

Hopefully this clarifies.

Agreed! Though I have no doubt that those who break and give partial credit to Qi on this board do believe in its existence and efficacy. So, if they believe in it and teach it to their students, there is nothing fraudulent about that.

[mooyingmantis]

I have left red welt marks in the shape of my hand on my gf's ass during sex. I did notice once that the welts were white inside in some places, similar to that video. I was probably squeezing her ass after I smacked it.

Maybe it's a good thing I don't do iron palm.

Sorry I'm not gonna post any vids of this :p

Sorry bro, but no vids, didn't happen! :D

[Taixuquan99]

How do I move breath into my forearms?



At least Taixuquan99's explanation here makes sense.

I like to have air in my lungs when I am getting hit. It feels better and provides more cushion. Is it qi energy? Not really. It's just air. It's the same reason I take a deep breath and flex my abs during a squat or deadlift. More intra-abdominal pressure = more stability. In fact, that is why powerlifting coaches teach the technique like that.

If I was gonna do an iron body forearm demo I would also take a deep breath (stability) and have my body is the most structurally sound position I could to help provide stability and absorb the force.

But no energy gets moved into my forearm.

This is not mystic energy.

And yet, what you describe is the classical definition of chi. The air fills the body, building a favorable alignment. It's not the air that is being described at all, the metaphysical relation is just that, a metaphysical relation. There is no question that the usages passed down were metaphysical to various degrees. The air moving the body into an alignment, there is kinetic energy, there is air, there is matter and energy in a healthful use.

Filthy tai chi hippy.

[Taixuquan99]

How do I move breath into my forearms?


How do you understand a metaphor?

It's a rhetorical question.

[IronFist]

And yet, what you describe is the classical definition of chi. The air fills the body, building a favorable alignment. It's not the air that is being described at all, the metaphysical relation is just that, a metaphysical relation. There is no question that the usages passed down were metaphysical to various degrees. The air moving the body into an alignment, there is kinetic energy, there is air, there is matter and energy in a healthful use.

Filthy tai chi hippy.

What I described was practical application of physics.


btw:



1) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, can be "moved around in the body" and used to "make the body as hard as steel?"
No.


Quote:
2) do you believe that qi, in any of its definitions, plays a role in protecting the body from damage beyond what is done by physical conditioning and physics in these breaks/demos? (by saying "yes" to this, you are basically saying "those bricks would not have broken if he just hit them without first moving the qi into his hand")
No.


Then you're pretty much in agreement with everything I've said in this thread.

There is no mystic qi power.

Breaks and iron body demos, while impressive (not including the parlor trick ones), are the correct application of physical conditioning and body mechanics, and there is no mystic energy component to them.

Stop arguing with me now since we're on the same side.

[Taixuquan99]

What I described was practical application of physics.


btw:


Then you're pretty much in agreement with everything I've said in this thread.

There is no mystic qi power.

Breaks and iron body demos, while impressive (not including the parlor trick ones), are the correct application of physical conditioning and body mechanics, and there is no mystic energy component to them.

Stop arguing with me now since we're on the same side.

I am disagreeing with both. I know it's nice to think he is wrong and you are right, but you're both wrong. Learn to deal with it. You're arguing Chinese metaphysics without knowing the slightest bit about it. You can't win by straw man in a logical approach, so you're wrong too, so just stop arguing.

You're right, but the assertions you base your conclusion on are wrong.

I'm right, and have my facts straight.

This isn't a team sport, so there's only one winner, me.

Suck it, fat boy.

[IronFist]

How do you understand a metaphor?

It's a rhetorical question.

Qigong and the martial arts needs less metaphor, less ambiguous guru speak, and more literal and concise definitions.

I am finding in my travels through life that usually the people who give vague, ambiguous fortune-cooking style advice are charlatans trying to maintain an air of "guru"-ness over their pupils.

The moldable student interprets it as "wow, such sage advice! I should ponder the deeper meaning!" and the instructor is like "lol, sucker."

You see it in business a lot, too. Ever been in an hour long meeting where upper managers were talking the entire time yet nothing was said? A bunch of nonsense like "At the end of the day we need to reengineer our portfolio of services to maximize synergy and leverage our unique position in the marketplace. I suggest we consolidate our human capital."

Friggin garbage http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

It's a great cliche in old kung fu movies (especially when at the end, the hero finally realizes the deep meaning behind what his teacher was saying), but it's worthless in real life. I tend to write off anyone who doesn't answer clearly and literally.

[IronFist]

I am disagreeing with both. I know it's nice to think he is wrong and you are right, but you're both wrong. Learn to deal with it. You're arguing Chinese metaphysics without knowing the slightest bit about it. You can't win by straw man in a logical approach, so you're wrong too, so just stop arguing.

You're right, but the assertions you base your conclusion on are wrong.

I'm right, and have my facts straight.

This isn't a team sport, so there's only one winner, me.

Suck it, fat boy.

You just agreed with me about qi not being a mystic power that can make the body "as hard as steel", I quoted you, and now you're saying it's wrong?

Your troll-fu is excellent.

[bawang]

qi is a irrelevant and harmless topic that doesnt affect your daily lives. thats why you guys like to argue about it.

[Taixuquan99]

Qigong and the martial arts needs less metaphor, less ambiguous guru speak, and more literal and concise definitions.

I am finding in my travels through life that usually the people who give vague, ambiguous fortune-cooking style advice are charlatans trying to maintain an air of "guru"-ness over their pupils.

The moldable student interprets it as "wow, such sage advice! I should ponder the deeper meaning!" and the instructor is like "lol, sucker."

You see it in business a lot, too. Ever been in an hour long meeting where upper managers were talking the entire time yet nothing was said? A bunch of nonsense like "At the end of the day we need to reengineer our portfolio of services to maximize synergy and leverage our unique position in the marketplace. I suggest we consolidate our human capital."

Friggin garbage http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

It's a great cliche in old kung fu movies (especially when at the end, the hero finally realizes the deep meaning behind what his teacher was saying), but it's worthless in real life. I tend to write off anyone who doesn't answer clearly and literally.

I am ignoring your post because of the vague meaning of "write off". Are we accountants?

And, for the record, they're planning on firing you for wasting time on the internet.

[Taixuquan99]

You just agreed with me about qi not being a mystic power that can make the body "as hard as steel", I quoted you, and now you're saying it's wrong?

Your troll-fu is excellent.

I specified that my methodology towards reaching my conclusion is correct, and yours is wrong, so again, get off the podium, the thread belongs to me.

[IronWeasel]

One thing I will add:
IF, and this is a big if, Qi is "breath" or "air" then yes it can be moved and directed to certain body parts to make them more withstanding to strikes.
Just as it can be moved to the core to strenghten and stabalize it for a heavy lift.


Many of your posts should be stickies here.

[bawang]

u guys are missing the obvious.

ancient chinese view air itself as a mystical force

[Taixuquan99]

I'm aware of the metaphysical and supernatural influences in many traditional practices. In and outside of martial arts, in both the East and West.

I'm also aware that many branches of science would be nowhere had they wholesale thrown out observations that came from traditional perspectives. Aspirin, opium, malaria treatments, the key discoveries in all of these come from traditional cultures whose explanations were not necessarily scientific, but who managed to observe and categorize many useful things that modern man depends on.

The fact that the discovers of willow bark as a treatment for a number of things may have had a mystical explanation as to why it worked does not change the fact that, left to scientists to find every substance's use, we might not even have these medicines yet. It also doesn't make their belief a case of fraud, while scientists who tried to claim these discoveries were definitely acting as frauds.

I'm interested in practices. If I see a practice I think might be useful to me, I'm not concerned as much if the practitioners using it use an explanatory model that doesn't jibe with me. Thus, when every iron body thread is turned into "Look at me, I'm the fearless fraud hunter, watch me endlessly inflate my accomplishments toward that task and inflate the importance of the problem while not allowing simple observation of any aspect of that training save what is most convenient for me to criticize" well, that's counter to my goals here, so screw that.

I'm also not interested in "your practices don't jibe with mine, so you are dumb." The idea behind mma is incorporation of all things useful. The idea that all methods from the world's many martial traditions have been well tested to that paradigm is untenable. The CMA example is a good one, as cultural and social conditions for a long time stymied attempts to do this, be they conditions from the PRC and their "brothers don't fight brothers" approach, to the overall Chinese kung fu community's quite traditional unwillingness to accept outside approaches toward implementing their styles in training that allowed it, an unwillingness based, imo, in an unwillingness to accept that, to be traditional, one must find a replacement for the role normally held by war, body guard work, and criminal endeavors as a means to hone one's ability as a fighter in the traditional way.

The most annoying aspect of the skeptic is that they almost always share the con man's belief that their beliefs need to be accepted by all, and will simplify any argument to the point of irrelevance in order to achieve this. Thus, again, truth takes back seat to The Truth.

[EarthDragon]

mooying
I
believe there is a more scientific explanation than Qi. Here is what I posted at YouTube under the video:

I believe the "skeleton" effect is due to the fact that the fingers were left pressed against the flesh after the strike. The strike combined with the continued pressure of the palm and fingers caused blood to be temporarily pushed out of the area. This also happens in corpses. Any area where there is pressure applied to the skin at death pushes blood out of the area and leaves a permanent white mark on the skin.

then i suggest you try to do it with the same results, I have tried to make the same mark and have failed, others whom have tried to duplicate this mark have tried and failed. so its not as easy as you say, but for doubts sake try it for yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To answer both Tai and IF in regards to how/if one moves breath:

Simple really, remember that the air we breathe is transported around our bodies via the circulatory system and that can be, somewhat, controlled via muscular tension.
Hard qigong is an example of this as is the valsava effect/manuver/attempted anyerisim.
While "hard" qigon makes it more noticible ( because we "hold" the breath there), it is the same process for "soft" qigong.

[Taixuquan99]

To answer both Tai and IF in regards to how/if one moves breath:

Simple really, remember that the air we breathe is transported around our bodies via the circulatory system and that can be, somewhat, controlled via muscular tension.
Hard qigong is an example of this as is the valsava effect/manuver/attempted anyerisim.
While "hard" qigon makes it more noticible ( because we "hold" the breath there), it is the same process for "soft" qigong.

LARPER!

Just kidding, thanks for the reply.

Now you kids get off of my thread.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Are you serious? I've never seen a break that couldn't be done without all the mystic qi stuff. Can someone post a link to a vid of a break that involves qi manipulation to the extent that it couldn't be done with only physical conditioning and physics?

All the fancy warmups the people do before they break, that may be to psyche themselves up (nothing wrong with that, I fully understand the need to get into the right headspace before a big athletic performance), but it's not manipulating the qi in a way that would prevent them from doing the break without it.

This is true for the legit breaks. It's especially ultra super mega true for the charlatans (the ones who are using physics and parlor tricks).

How are you "concentrating the energy" or "making it stronger"? Focusing the mind isn't qi. Psyching yourself up isn't qi. Are you saying you're actually moving qi into the hands or something for the break which is somehow allowing the practitioner to do things that he wouldn't otherwise be able to do?

I'm not saying I'm 100% right and you guys are wrong. I'm saying, show me an example that proves I'm wrong, because I've never seen any breaks or other qi demos (iron body, etc.) that couldn't be duplicated entirely with physical conditioning and application of physics.

Some possible examples that would help me believe that qi is actually playing a role here:

- breaking using qi with a very soft touch that is not hard enough to break the bricks. Use the power of qi to break the bricks instead (the "egg in the hand break" doesn't fall into this category; you're still hitting the brick hard which is causing it to break).

- an iron body demonstration where the guy gets hit in the gut with a sledge hammer (or punch or kick, but I know they like to use sledge hammers for these demos) where the guy doesn't need to flex his abs to absorb the blow. I've heard this is possible before, but in all the iron body demos I've seen, the guy was tensing every muscle in his body at the moment of impact. Don't get me wrong; that's how you absorb a blow. But I want to see it done with qi. Bonus points if it's a skinny guy who doesn't have an additional layer of protection from fat :D

are you serious??!?!

NO WHERE did i say the fancy dancing is needed before a break
I just said QI means ENERGY, and you need ENERGY to do anything.

i said

practicing QI QONG just makes your ENERGY stronger, like exercising makes your power/muscles stronger, so in a way, qi can translate to energy, which translate to power indirectly. You are using QI to type this post in this thread right now.

Hope this makes sense.

[mawali]

If this were a reality, I would expect to see the person put his palm at lest 2 ins away from the object and said object would break just like that! Don't ya think!

As Sarah Palin might say "How's that going for ya?"

[Pk_StyLeZ]

You say qi is "life force", the energy that gives life. You then also say consciousness is qi. You say one needs this "energy" and "consciousness" to live and perform acts like tying your shoes, thinking, breathing, walking, or breaking bricks.

So in short you are saying you must be alive to break bricks.

I don't know how I can argue with that.

According to your logic, even when one does not "summon qi from the dantian" and merely uses physics to perform a brick break, you still attribute that ability to "qi" rather than physics alone.

So every break is a "qi break" because the person is alive and couldn't perform the break without qi because "without qi you're dead".

You win every time.

i knw you being sarscastic
but yes this is correct!

tieing shoes with qi! wooot!

[Pk_StyLeZ]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it sounds like you're saying "qi is real, but it doesn't mean mystic energy, it just means breathing and consciousness."

So if that's the case, then all these Shaolin Monk demonstrations are fraudulent because it's not possible to breathe in your arm to make it hard like steel.

I can understand the original definition of "qi." Hundreds or thousands of years ago before anyone knew much about science, I could see people assigning a concept to "life force." X is alive, it has qi. Y is not alive, it doesn't have qi. When you eat something, you're absorbing its qi and its qi is becoming part of you (which is actually pretty correct with regard to molecular breakdown and how your body absorbs food).

I won't even argue against that definition because it's fine.

But people extend the definition of qi further into a tangible energy that can be moved around and used to "make the body as hard as steel," and that's what I'm either calling BS or or asking for proof of, because every "demonstration" of this I've seen has been the result of physical conditioning and physics (which may or may not include parlor tricks), and has nothing to do with moving energy around or qi (outside of the fact that the practitioner was alive and breathing and conscious during the demo, obviously). But it appears they want to fool the public into believing they have some sort of special power, and that is what makes the martial arts look bad.

But really, saying "well he was breathing and therefore he was using qi" doesn't disprove what I'm saying. Everyone in this thread knows exactly what I'm talking
about, and that includes you.

maybe i should of read more before replying back .....

omg to much to read..im not gonna finish your other post
but i think me and you are on the same page now
you just dont like the false advertisement that it is mystical and magical and all that BS
agreed

[Scott R. Brown]

u guys are missing the obvious.

ancient chinese view air itself as a mystical force


qi is a irrelevant and harmless topic that doesnt affect your daily lives. thats why you guys like to argue about it.

No one is interested in your wise, yet simple, explanations, apparently. They want long drawn out arguments leading to nothing but more confusion!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many of your posts should be stickies here.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

[IronFist]

maybe i should of read more before replying back .....

omg to much to read..im not gonna finish your other post
but i think me and you are on the same page now
you just dont like the false advertisement that it is mystical and magical and all that BS
agreed

:cool:

Exactly. If breaks are the result of physical conditioning and body mechanics (which they are), don't attribute them to mystic energy.

That's my only beef.

If mystic energy is real and can be demonstrated (for example, breaking without using body mechanics and physical conditioning, or taking powerful blows to the abdomen without flexing the abs and relying on mystic energy to protect you instead), then go ahead and claim that you are using qi.

The problem is that in all of these demos (such as in the Shaolin Monks demo on the first page), people are using physical conditioning and body mechanics but acting like they are only able to do these things because they have control of a mystic energy.

[Taixuquan99]

:cool:

Exactly. If breaks are the result of physical conditioning and body mechanics (which they are), don't attribute them to mystic energy.

That's my only beef.

If mystic energy is real and can be demonstrated (for example, breaking without using body mechanics and physical conditioning, or taking powerful blows to the abdomen without flexing the abs and relying on mystic energy to protect you instead), then go ahead and claim that you are using qi.

The problem is that in all of these demos (such as in the Shaolin Monks demo on the first page), people are using physical conditioning and body mechanics but acting like they are only able to do these things because they have control of a mystic energy.

Again, your post relies on a nonexistent concept of chi that IS NOT Chinese. First, the first video flat out uses the phrase "Chinese believe in Chi" right from the outset. Without resorting to the Chinese definition of the word, you can only make assumptions that are not apt. Second, you again isolate chi from matter, it all must be done irrespective of matter in your test. You fail to grasp that you are saying, in effect, "Show me energy in relation to matter by taking away the relevance of matter to the energy." So, gonna show me where the influx of later Western miind-body arguments first arrived in BC China, I know a few guys who would probably write a book on it, since it involves time travel AND China. Researchers dream, I suppose.

Further, you fail to grasp that actual shaolin monks would find the concept of physics without chi as impossible, so you exclude exactly one answer that their definition would include.

Coming to the right conclusion from the wrong premises is a failed argument, reiterating it is still incorrect, reiterating it again cause someone agrees with you is internet fanboyism.

Since the term is not isolated from matter, it cannot be tested in isolation. Simple logic. An energy that occurs irrespective of the condition of the matter housing it cannot fulfill the definition of chi.

Since there is no term as concise as chi that speaks to a holistic combination of body mechanics, conditioning, diet, right entrainment, etc, you better get used to the term, because it's not going away. You are not the terminology police, which is good, since you've erroneously used not only a foreign term, but fraud, which I assume is in your own language.

I suppose you always fight claims of resurrection to? No? How about Talking burning bushes? No? Reincarnation? No?

You are very brave, fighting the highly marginal problem of weird iron hand beliefs.

[mooyingmantis]

...notice the dissipation of blood in the bone of the fingers...

Mike,
Can you please explain the above phrase.


I can assure you if you just hit someones back with no qi focused with it, the welt will just be solid red. Nuff said

Just sitting here a few minutes ago I did a medium power iron palm slap to the front of my bare thigh and left my hand in place pressing on the skin just like the guy in the video you referenced. When I lifted my hand the entire area was white. There was no redness, just a white hand print that included the area of all my fingers and my palm. After a few minutes the blood rushed back into the area and the skin returned to its natural color. Same results, but no attempt at Qi generation into the area.

[Taixuquan99]

My thoughts.

Using the microcosmic orbit/small celestial orbit and the macrocosmic orbit as an example.

For those unfamiliar, depending on where you learn it, it is either perceiving along the coccyx, up the spine, to the crown, down the front of the body, or it is visualizing an energy along the same route(some simplification going on here).

I favor the route that does not involve visualization, but both CAN lead the same way.

As a point of reference, focus on the feeling of air around your right index finger. Do not visualize the air, just focus on the feelings of that finger. You, of course, will be more aware of that finger than, say, the opposite hand's pinky.

In the microcosmic orbit, you focus on the feeling using a moving focus, so that the focus of perception might be from coccyx, up the spine, to the crown, over the crown and down, and down the front of your body. Just the act of moving the focus of perception is a skill that requires effort.

The reason I don't favor visualizing is because it COULD lead to imagining feeling something as easily as it leads to specifically feeling an area. That said, it's a slippery slope where we split hairs on whether an imagined feeling is real, as it is still a feeling. If I can imagine a feeling between my shoulders, that's still a capacity to feel between my shoulders.

At the macrocosmic level, the paths branch out, and happen to be very good indicators of how kinetic energy moves along the spine and to the limbs and elsewhere. The goal is to train ability to perceive clearly these routes.

Now, when taking incoming force or exerting force, the more one can direct the force along a route without unnecessary waste is optimum, so these practices are a way to practice beginning awareness of this, but must be paired with hitting or receiving another's force in order to get skilled at them.

I suspect, aside from showmanship, that the "buildup" stuff for many before a break is essentially like going over notes before a test. This is often confirmed when I see the footage, where they focus on a chain that leads to the striking surface. Additionally, to perceive a point, relaxation beats tension: if I focus on feeling the air around my finger, and tense it, the feeling of the tension will trump the feeling of the air. Thus, the chi gong becomes a mnemonic device for what the practitioner wishes to do with the break. From there, the break occurs, if following the principles laid out in the related tradition, by leading force along the route practiced.

If someone doing this wishes to visualize, or feels there is something metaphysical in play, that is their business. If they teach it as such, but can perform the intended tasks, that is also their business. I know from experience that some have some interesting applications of the routes that I'd never have though of on my own, and even if I don't share the same beliefs, I find that cool.

Needing to be right makes people argue Chinese metaphysics from total ignorance with people with formal education including that topic, and that's just silly.

[IronFist]

Dude, I'm saying that there is no mystic energy that makes your strikes stronger. After 9 pages, how do you still not understand that?

It doesn't matter what the Chinese definition of qi is.

What matters is there are people out there who claim to be able to use a mystic energy (they are calling it "qi," regardless of if that is the correct Chinese definition of it or not) to perform superhuman feats.

I don't care what the definition of qi is.

All I care about is if there is a mystic energy that can make the body "as hard as steel." I would like to see a demo of it.

Here is a list of things I don't care about:

- the Chinese definition of qi
- the Western definition of qi
- anyone's definition of qi
- Chinese metaphysics
- discussions of macro/microcosmic orbit
- what people teach
- semantics

Here is a list of things I do care about:

- whether or not there is a mystic energy (regardless of what people call it) that can be used to make the body "as hard as steel".

So far I have not seen any demonstrations of this despite watching dozens of videos and documentaries.

[Taixuquan99]

It doesn't matter what the Chinese definition of qi is.

In relation to the shaolin monks, it is relevant, as their definition is not consistent with yours, regardless of what a national geographic narrator might say. Sorry.


What matters is there are people out there who claim to be able to use a mystic energy (they are calling it "qi," regardless of if that is the correct Chinese definition of it or not) to perform superhuman feats.

Some ARE coming from a cultural sphere that holds my definition, not yours, as the tradition, regardless that you want to paint it otherwise.


I don't care what the definition of qi is.

This much is obvious. You cared right up until you were proven to have knowledge based on a guy in Milwaukee who learned Shaolin from his grandma before dropping out of middle school to work at Medieval Times plucking turkey legs.


All I care about is if there is a mystic energy that can make the body "as hard as steel." I would like to see a demo of it.

A demo of your own made up definition of a foreign term, in order to simplify proving a point I already proved using a legitimate argument based upon actual scholarly use of the term.

I remind you that you are now posting on my thread, manboy.

[Taixuquan99]

Here is a list of things I don't care about:

- the Chinese definition of qi

Then don't start a topic related to it.


- the Western definition of qi

There isn't one.


- anyone's definition of qi

So you want proof of something based on no definition, but no discussion of semantics? Interesting.

So, you arbitrarily assign a definition in order to support your bad argumentation, funny how that works.

And yet, your argumentation is bad, mine good.


- Chinese metaphysics

A discussion related to chi IS a discussion of Chinese metaphysics, you prepubescent monkey wanker.


- discussions of macro/microcosmic orbit

Since those orbits are essentially the routes that chi is supposedly moved along, again you are choosing to define discussion of your topic along lines that omit almost the entire topic. Well done.


- what people teach

Apparently including breaks.


- semantics

Since you cannot accurately use the term fraud, the study of meaning in language is necessary in order to navigate your thread based on your made up definitions and lower Cleveland area welfare orphan English.


Here is a list of things I do care about:

1) A conclusion.
2) An arbitrary assignment of definitions that do not adequately support my conclusion or the facts.
3) That no one should use a traditional explanation and a clear explanation of methods and rationales used to be more right than me
4) Support from a varied number of random people that makes me feel like I own my thread again, hopefully before I cry.


I understand.

[Taixuquan99]

Now, as to the macrocosmic orbit, it is also especially important to understand spinal whip as it contributes to fajin.:D

[IronWeasel]

Requesting a ban.

Again.

[Taixuquan99]

Requesting a ban.

Again.

Not sure if this is aimed toward me. If it is:

-If one starts an argument about chi, and it is at odds with definitions as accepted by scholars related to Chinese philosophy and cosmology, Sawyer being a good source among them, they should have to accept that.

-If it is related to bringing up proper definitions, and such things as the micro and macro cosmic orbits, accepted as intrinsically related to the subject of projecting chi, there is little argument for allowing arbitrary definitions based on dubious sources that are at odds with ALL the scholarly work, and intellectually dishonest to exclude the field one is arguing about from discussion.

-If it relates to mock insults made because the original poster refuses to recognize that he is arguing with someone who has more knowledge on the details of the topic of chi in Chinese cosmology, the original poster doesn't seem to be worried about them, possibly because his knowledge of Chinese history, philosophy, and cosmology came from his favorite episode of Glee.

[mooyingmantis]

Requesting a ban.

Again.

What is your beef bro?

Taixuquan99 has been a gentleman in every post of his that I have read. Disagreement, especially in a civil manner is not a reason for banning.
If you feel he is arguing with you, stop responding to his posts. You can't argue with one who can simply ignore you. :)

[IronWeasel]

What is your beef bro?

Taixuquan99 has been a gentleman in every post of his that I have read. Disagreement, especially in a civil manner is not a reason for banning.
If you feel he is arguing with you, stop responding to his posts. You can't argue with one who can simply ignore you. :)

He's the same argumentative guy that was banned before.

He just takes a contrarian position for the sake of argument.

If he were here to learn something, or to sincerely provide info...that would be great. But he's just here to push peoples' buttons, and his debates always boil down to ridicule, rather than criticism.

Not to mention the multiple ID's. The guy's online persona could be a schizophrenic.

...that's my beef. Thanks for asking. :)


EDIT: My beef is mostly from his previous posts under his other screen name(s). He's fairly civil now, but it's the same person behind the keyboard as before.

[Taixuquan99]

He's the same argumentative guy that was banned before.

He just takes a contrarian position for the sake of argument.

If he were here to learn something, or to sincerely provide info...that would be great. But he's just here to push peoples' buttons, and his debates always boil down to ridicule, rather than criticism.

Not to mention the multiple ID's. The guy's online persona could be a schizophrenic.

...that's my beef. Thanks for asking. :)


EDIT: My beef is mostly from his previous posts under his other screen name(s). He's fairly civil now, but it's the same person behind the keyboard as before.

To clarify, I was previously KC Elbows, I changed names for the hell of it(not using the KC one anymore), and I wasn't any of the other trolls.

MICROCOSMIC ORBIT!

Sorry, I do agree, I should be banned.

As for the contrarian thing, it's more I take offense to people who talk about classical Chinese references without any research, and get smug about it with people who actually have degrees in related topics. This does not include you, and honestly, I like IronFist, it's just he's talking like he actually has a leg to stand on in reference to something he has clearly read not one relevant major source on. And, I tire of the iron body police, they're completely sanctimonious and use weak stock arguments.

This is not to mention that he learned his kicks AND his acting chops from Gymkata.

[TenTigers]

in response to the original post; yes, all of those were parlor tricks,
Breaking against the corner, breaking long stones -again against a corner, sure they require a bit of skill training, but nothing much more.
The metal slabs against the head-overly tempered pot metal-very brittle-which is why it broke into several pieces.
Same with the wooden stakes-notice how when he kicks them, they break into several pieces-overly dried. If it was fresh cut, it would split like a green stick fracture (hence the term).
Bending a spear on the throat is a parlor trick-supported on the suprasternal notch and applying downward pressure. If you could truly do it, let me place the end on your throat, and pop the butt end with my palm. Bring a bucket.

Still not sure about the needle through the glass, but if follows that if all of their stunts were, well, stunts...then needle through glass is most likely a stunt as well.
I am disappointed in both Shaolin Temple, and National Geographic for promoting this drivel.

[Scott R. Brown]

For general information:

When you slap your thigh, or your girl-friend's butt, it pushes all the capillary blood out of the surface of your skin, making it turn white. The blood returns in an uneven manner that leaves the area looking patchy white and pink. It is the blood in the skin that makes us white people have a slightly pink color.

The easiest and least painful way to demonstrate this for yourself is to merely push in the pad at the end of your finger and you will see around the edges turns white. Lift the pushing finger and you will see the blood rush back to the finger pad. It happens quickly so be sure to stay sharp!

Dead people look white and pale because as soon as they die the blood follows gravity and flows to the lowest point. If they are sitting in a chair their legs will swell and turn bluish-purple like an ugly bruise. If they are laying in bed it will happen to their backside.

Like many of us have said for years here, chi is merely an explanation for phenomena that could not be explained because of the lack of proper scientific knowledge. Apparently the Shaolin monks do not learn any modern anatomy and physiology, so at least on this topic they appear a bit ignorant and/or naive.

[Taixuquan99]

The macrocosmic orbit is totally necessary to understand the six directional force, which no one on this thread understands but me.

It's the only way to break out of a small closet or perhaps a changing room at Banana Republic.

Baby Gap in IronFist's case.

[Taixuquan99]

For general information:

When you lap your thigh, or your girl-friend's butt, it pushes all the capillary blood out of the surface of your skin, making it turn white. The blood returns in an uneven manner that leaves the area looking patchy white and pink. It is the blood in the skin that makes us white people have a slightly pink color.

The easiest and least painful way to demonstrate this for yourself is to merely push in the pad and the end of your finger and you will see around the edges turns white. Lift the pushing finger and you will see the blood rush back to the finger pad. It happens quickly so be sure to stay sharp!

Dead people look white and pale because as soon as they die the blood follows gravity and flows to the lowest point. If they are sitting in a chair their legs will swell and turn bluish-purple like an ugly bruise. If they are laying in bed it will happen to their backside.

Like many of us have said for years here, chi is merely an explanation for phenomena that could not be explained because of the lack of proper scientific knowledge. Apparently the Shaolin monks do not learn any modern anatomy and physiology, so at least on this topic they appear a bit ignorant and/or naive.

I agree, but your post only covers through to level two.

[Scott R. Brown]

I agree, but your post only covers through to level two.

Of course you are correct. One must stand on their head while slapping their girl-friend's butt during sex in order to even come close to level three and that is only if you do it the third Tuesday in October during the full moon in the northern hemisphere, during the year of the tiger!

Soooo....good luck with all that! I prefer to take a nap!:p

[Taixuquan99]

In all fairness, the shaolin show is just that, a show. Having been there and seen the show here as well some years back, I'm not sure who is putting on a better martial arts related show anywhere, regardless of what purists want to think.

All the good breaks, the ones that require the most skill, are also the least interesting from a distance, because you don't have little pieces of brick flying everywhere when it is supported, etc. That would make for a nice display of skill that really doesn't show well when talking about viewing it in an auditorium.

Since pretty much all the monks have previous kung fu experience, it's likely some may know such breaks, but in designing the kind of show we're talking about, I really can't fault them for using more visually dynamic ones, even if they aren't as interesting for the small percentage of viewers they may get with experience. It's show biz, not a class.

As to the monks displaying primitive beliefs, they're monks, the very concept is primitive to a modern. I'd also suggest that humans, even well educated modern ones, are loaded with primitive beliefs that they cannot explain. I don't see it as a productive use of time for one primitive human trying to convince another to not be primitive, I'm not even sure that such beliefs are so easy to quantify as negative, and modern ones as positive.

[Taixuquan99]

As an aside, I've seen a chi kung used for throwing needles. It resembles detailed notes on throwing, set in a paradigm of the motion, just as a batter practices their swing. Refine the process so that you are aware of each link in the chain enough that you can tell if you are losing energy at various points, etc.

[bawang]

For general information:

When you slap your thigh, or your girl-friend's butt, it pushes all the capillary blood out of the surface of your skin, making it turn white. The blood returns in an uneven manner that leaves the area looking patchy white and pink. It is the blood in the skin that makes us white people have a slightly pink color.

you are saying you guys are bloodless vampires

i always suspectewd this

[wenshu]

you are saying you guys are bloodless vampires

i always suspectewd this

I'm not a vampire, I'm Norwegian.

http://solariasun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/anders-behring-breivik-plastic-surgery.jpg

[mooyingmantis]

For general information:

When you slap your thigh, or your girl-friend's butt, it pushes all the capillary blood out of the surface of your skin, making it turn white. The blood returns in an uneven manner that leaves the area looking patchy white and pink. It is the blood in the skin that makes us white people have a slightly pink color.

The easiest and least painful way to demonstrate this for yourself is to merely push in the pad at the end of your finger and you will see around the edges turns white. Lift the pushing finger and you will see the blood rush back to the finger pad. It happens quickly so be sure to stay sharp!

Dead people look white and pale because as soon as they die the blood follows gravity and flows to the lowest point. If they are sitting in a chair their legs will swell and turn bluish-purple like an ugly bruise. If they are laying in bed it will happen to their backside.

Like many of us have said for years here, chi is merely an explanation for phenomena that could not be explained because of the lack of proper scientific knowledge. Apparently the Shaolin monks do not learn any modern anatomy and physiology, so at least on this topic they appear a bit ignorant and/or naive.

Yeah, what I said! Scott just said it way prettier. :D

Good post Scott!

[mooyingmantis]

faxipreta


dont make sweeping assumptions you have no idea what richard has done in his many years in MA carer so thats not fair to say....



speaking from expereince as well as someone who has had a student fight and win in 2 UFC's and now has students fighting in raging wolf and cage matches. I can assure you that you are %100 incorrect.

It is a sport and a held in a controled environment. These competitors are not trying to cause temorary nor permanent damage to others but rather win the match by K.O TKO or submission. Sounds like your a calling the kettle black.

Thanks Mike!

I still have him on ignore, so he can say whatever he likes. At least to those who don't yet have him on ignore. :)

[Dale Dugas]

You are nothing but a cowardly mouthboxer.

We all know your type.

You are a closet warrior, who wants to try and make people feel bad about themselves.

I always open my doors for toolbags such as yourself to come and prove me wrong.

Still no one has ever come to get their ass handed to them by me.

[David Jamieson]

Bring it back around please. Or I'll cherry pick and prune this thread up.