Head Lock

[YouKnowWho]

In the following clip, we can see that the "head lock" was applied 8 times with 4 succeesses (0.30, 1.17, 1.56, 2.44) and 4 failures (0.55, 1.44, 2.27, 3.44). the successful rate was 50%. This should be a valid proof that it's a very useful skill in the Sanda/Sanshou tournaments.

If you compete in Sanda/Sanshou, how important in your mind that "head lock" should be one of your effective tools?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbzghEV0rIM

[lkfmdc]

That is an extremely sloppy fight and the opponent appears to have very little if any clinch training

[Frost]

so something works 50% of the time in a crappy fight where no one can clinch fight properly, and in your mind that makes it a useful move :confused:

[MasterKiller]

Instead of a headlock, most people try to get an underhook or overhook on the far side before attempting the hip throw.

Even a single collar/neck-tie is preferable to a full headlock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mskX8EDVy8k

[EarthDragon]

I agree bad example. Its hard to put small town tourneys with girls fighting with obviously littel experiance to prove a method of success. sorry John I usually always agree with your posts as they are knowlegable and present high level skill.

[Frost]

Instead of a headlock, most people try to get an underhook or overhook on the far side before attempting the hip throw.

Even a single collar/neck-tie is preferable to a full headlock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mskX8EDVy8k

thank you, this is what i have said to him every time he posts, john seems to have a thing for the head lock, yet its just a low percentage move

[HumbleWCGuy]

I agree bad example. Its hard to put small town tourneys with girls fighting with obviously littel experiance to prove a method of success. sorry John I usually always agree with your posts as they are knowlegable and present high level skill.

LOL... Bad martial arts is limited to girls and small towns.

[lkfmdc]

Of all the things you can do, neck tie, double neck tie, over hook, under hook, seat belts, inside bicept control ("monkey arm"), steering whell, wrist control, etc the headlock is the LOWEST PERCENTAGE MOVE...

[pazman]

The headlock throw is one of those things that seem like a good idea when you think about it in your head, but its just not a technique that should be a part of Sanda syllabus.

I don't want to disparage the competitors in the video, but there was nothing to indicate state-of-the-art sanda technique.

[MasterKiller]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-random-photos-11.jpg?w=500&h=666

[YouKnowWho]

Even a single collar/neck-tie is preferable to a full headlock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mskX8EDVy8k

The above clip is exactly the "head lock" that I'm talking about here. He starts with controlling his opponent's back neck (collar/neck-tie) when he is facing his opponent. The moment that his body is turning (at 0.10), his arm extends and surrounds his opponent's neck just like the following picture.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/headlock.jpg/

[MasterKiller]

This looks like "head lock" to me. He starts with controlling his opponent's back neck (collar/neck-tie). In the middle of the throwing (at 0.10), his arm surrounds his opponent's neck just like the following picture.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/headlock.jpg/

The problem with the headlock is that more often than not, the headlocker is going to get suplexed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpuTY1Rodf4

[lkfmdc]

The problem with the headlock is that more often than not, the headlocker is going to get suplexed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpuTY1Rodf4

actually the REAL problem is, with sweat, you often lose your back to the person

[YouKnowWho]

The problem with the headlock is that more often than not, the headlocker is going to get suplexed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpuTY1Rodf4
So we are talking about the same "head lock" here. Just to make sure on that first. For a while I thought you have different definition about head lock than I do.

Since I started this thread, I'm not going to express my own opinion but just "listen" to your guys opinions here.

[MasterKiller]

So we are talking about the same "head lock" here. Just to make sure on that first. For a while I thought you have different definition about head lock than I do.

Since I started this thread, I'm not going to express my own opinion but just to "listen" to your guys opinion here.

Yeah, same as your pic

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/headlock.jpg/

You have both arms tied up on my head, I can slip to your back and have both arms free and my hips behind you. That's a bad spot for you.

[MasterKiller]

But you only have "one free arm". Your left arm is controlled by your opponent's right arm as shown in that picture.

Controlling the tricep with a hooked hand or using an overhook I think offers more control and isolates the arm better.

[YouKnowWho]

Yeah, same as your pic

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/headlock.jpg/

You have both arms tied up on my head, I can slip to your back and have both arms free and my hips behind you. That's a bad spot for you.
Here is an ancient Chinese "spear and shield" conflict. Old Chinese saying said, "If you can't control your opponent's leading arm, you should not apply head lock". The funnest thing is, all the head lock counters (there are more than 20) all assume that you have both free arms. So who is right and who is wrong?

[MasterKiller]

This is better than the first one, imo.

[YouKnowWho]

This is better than the first one, imo.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6363&d=1312230125

IMO, this is a bad example of "head lock". Please notice that his opponent's both arms are free. This is the problem for sport jacket match. When you get hold of your opponent's sleeve, you are not truly controlling his arm. A good control is to use your

- hand to control his elbow,
- armpit to control his wrist,
- another hand to control his upper arm.

You will use 3 contack points to make sure that one of your opponent's arm is disable when you apply your head lock.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6363&d=1312230125

IMO, this is a bad example of "head lock". Please notice that his opponent's both arms are free. This is the problem for sport jacket throw. When you get hold of your opponent's jack, you are not truly control his arm.

That's the reason you don't wrap your arm all the way around the head. It gives them too much if you fail.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, how much wrapping depends on how much you can bend your opponent's spine. You have to sense that when you turn.

[MasterKiller]

IMO, how much wrapping depends on how much you can bend your opponent's spine. You have to sense that when you turn.

I suppose we all train to minimize the risk for maximum effect, though.

[YouKnowWho]

I suppose we all train to minimize the risk for maximum effect, though.

This is why in TCMA, everything are "relative" and not "absolute". Again, I'm suppose to "listen" to your guys opinions. I'm not suppose to express my own opinion. :D

I'm fully aware the risk that you guys are talking about here. For every problem, there are solutions. That make the TCMA so interest.

[Dragonzbane76]

not a big fan of the head lock throw. I've done it a couple times on people smaller than me, but I never, never rely on it for maximum potential. It has to many flaws and is not high percentage enough for me to try and work it into my clinch game. I've done it and most times it was an accident and I didn't even realize I was doing it.

The clip you showed had some sloppy fighting in it and no lead ins for a good solid clinch.

I've seen people pull off the HL throw but I've also seen it backfire as many times as I've seen it work.

[Frost]

so no one thinks its a good idea then...just checking

so far we have it being bad because
a) its easy to slip off your opponent, especially if they are not wearing a head guard and simply bull their neck (wrestling 101)
b) it gives up the back and basically sayd here dump me on my head now

[YouKnowWho]

I may be the only person who thinks it's a good idea. As I have said, all problems have solutions. As long as you know what problems that you are dealing with.

Since I started this thread, my opinion is not important here. I started this thread to "listen". I like to know the other side opinions.

[Frost]

my opinion, as you know is it gives up too much control and is too high a risk, underhooks or overhooks allow better control in the throw and dont give up as much access to your hips as the head lock throw

[SimonM]

actually the REAL problem is, with sweat, you often lose your back to the person

Yeah, this is true.