northern mantis challenge matches

[Paul T England]

Ok, so last few days I have been reading alot about hong kong inter school challenge matches in the 50s and 60s. Many comments on Choy li fut, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis but none about northern mantis schools. Given that 7 star and taiji mantis are well established in hong kong i would have thought they would have had their fair share of stories.

Does anyone know of any, good or bad?

Paul

[MightyB]

Ok, so last few days I have been reading alot about hong kong inter school challenge matches in the 50s and 60s. Many comments on Choy li fut, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis but none about northern mantis schools. Given that 7 star and taiji mantis are well established in hong kong i would have thought they would have had their fair share of stories.

Does anyone know of any, good or bad?

Paul

I'll have to apologize for being vague - so here's one that I heard a long, long, looonnng time ago when I was just a neophyte mantid.

My Sigung related a story about his younger days as a martial arts student in HK. Apparently there was a group of Wing Chunners that were causing trouble with other martial artists and schools. They were known to practice in a particular park - so one day one of my Sigung's contemporaries went to the park where they were practicing. The guy apparently started to do finger tip push ups near the students on hard packed ground - as he did these - he'd push off hard enough that he'd lift slightly off the ground on the up motion and sink a little bit on the landing - when his knuckles reached the dirt and his fingers were completely submerged - he got up, dusted himself off - and asked the Chunners to give it a try. They left and never bothered the mantis school.

[-N-]

I've heard other stories about Wing Chun and Mantis but my teacher was not one to glorify those events.

[Paul T England]

win or lose does not matter, lessons can be learned.

This stuff happened 50 years ago but its still a great resource to here the stories.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
www.nemartialartsupply.com

[sanjuro_ronin]

While it is always interesting to know what was done in the PAST, we must live in the times we live, the here and now.
Mantis, like any other MA, if it is to be known as a fighting system NOW, must be demonstrated to be a fighting system NOW.
It is irrelevant what it was in the past.
What masters and fighters of the past did with THEIR abilities in Mantis is irrelevant to what people do NOW with THEIR abilities in Mantis.

[-N-]

What masters and fighters of the past did with THEIR abilities in Mantis is irrelevant to what people do NOW with THEIR abilities in Mantis.

+1

Our teacher's focus was on our training.

[MightyB]

I think Paul's intention was to pass on stories to inspire hard training beyotchis :rolleyes:

Quit being freak'n holier than thou DBs :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think Paul's intention was to pass on stories to inspire hard training beyotchis :rolleyes:

Quit being freak'n holier than thou DBs :p

LMAO !
Indeed, and all MA are filled with them.
In Boxing we have the stories of Marciano that hit like a mule, in Kyokushin we have stories of Oyama killing a gangster with one punch, The stories if Ueshiba and Mifune and kimura, of Miyagi and of Wong Fei Hong and etc, etc, etc

All great stories and very inspiration.

And all mean very little to the average practioner and can even be harmful when those "extreme examples" are taken as "typical" and viewed as "attainable" goals.

Dig where I am coming from my brother?

[MightyB]

LMAO !
Indeed, and all MA are filled with them.
In Boxing we have the stories of Marciano that hit like a mule, in Kyokushin we have stories of Oyama killing a gangster with one punch, The stories if Ueshiba and Mifune and kimura, of Miyagi and of Wong Fei Hong and etc, etc, etc

All great stories and very inspiration.

And all mean very little to the average practioner and can even be harmful when those "extreme examples" are taken as "typical" and viewed as "attainable" goals.

Dig where I am coming from my brother?

So what - they're fun.

I have some suspicions as to who the other critic's Sifu was - if my suspicions are true, then his Sifu had a b'itch'n real life story that involves being so fast with the ou lou choi that he smacked a c'ocky euro-kick boxer in the mouth before he could blink. That should get us all inspired to work on 7* PM's bread-and-butter move, the ou lou choi. We do it like no other and it's something to aspire to perfection.

or the stories of a famous non 7* but still mantis practitioner who, when his student opened his own school - visited a prominent TKD instructor in his student's area that was talking smack about the new school. Anyway, during a friendly meeting, he leaped on top of the TKDer's desk and performed an ultra fast and ultra powerful form in it's entirety. He did this without disturbing the objects on the TKDer's desk. He then jumped off the desk, smiled, and left. Apparently the TKDer stopped his smack talk after that encounter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So what - they're fun.

I have some suspicions as to who the other critic's Sifu was - if my suspicions are true, then his Sifu had a b'itch'n real life story that involves being so fast with the ou lou choi that he smacked a c'ocky euro-kick boxer in the mouth before he could blink. That should get us all inspired to work on 7* PM's bread-and-butter move, the ou lou choi. We do it like no other and it's something to aspire to perfection.

or the stories of a famous non 7* but still mantis practitioner who, when his student opened his own school - visited a prominent TKD instructor in his student's area that was talking smack about the new school. Anyway, during a friendly meeting, he leaped on top of the TKDer's desk and performed an ultra fast and ultra powerful form in it's entirety. He did this without disturbing the objects on the TKDer's desk. He then jumped off the desk, smiled, and left. Apparently the TKDer stopped his smack talk after that encounter.

They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

[Codeboy]

Nice, MightyB. I have heard both of those stories at the school :D

A few other stories about some hoodlum or another walking into the school and mocking Sigung and another challenge type match that was avoided by jumping out of a high window or something? Those ring a bell? The window story wasn't from our lineage or school though...

[MightyB]

They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

Then quit 7* and do Baji or something because knocking a person's @ss out before they even see you move IS the point of 7*. ;)

That's the point in the legit schools anyway. People forget that, but if you're HK trained - then it is something that you become intimately familiar with because it's preached. "Learn it slow at first, then go faster, and if you think you're going fast - go faster!"

[MightyB]

Nice, MightyB. I have heard both of those stories at the school :D

A few other stories about some hoodlum or another walking into the school and mocking Sigung and another challenge type match that was avoided by jumping out of a high window or something? Those ring a bell? The window story wasn't from our lineage or school though...

The window story involved a thief, a 2nd or 3rd story window, and true "lightness" skills by a man who is a living legend... "Here, try this tea, no wait - this tea's not for you, too powerful for you, you weak kung fu".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then quit 7* and do Baji or something because knocking a person's @ss out before they even see you move IS the point of 7*. ;)

That's the point in the legit schools anyway. People forget that, but if you're HK trained - then it is something that you become intimately familiar with because it's preached. "Learn it slow at first, then go faster, and if you think you're going fast - go faster!"

Indeed, but how many Matis guys that you know that are as fast or faster than Brendan?
Probably as many 180lbs boxers that hit as hard as Marciano.

[MightyB]

Indeed, but how many Matis guys that you know that are as fast or faster than Brendan?
Probably as many 180lbs boxers that hit as hard as Marciano.

Only one - but not many train to be that fast. They forget that that was the point. Take forms training for instance. They learn it at a learner's pace - they then learn to perform it at their own pace... but they never push it, my Si Gung - the last of the truly great HK masters, always said that you had to aspire to move as fast as you possibly can move to get the most out of forms training (while still having correct hip movement and power). NOBODY trains that consistently - they learn to be pretty, to perform the form - my Sifu did the entire sup a sou form in less than 7 seconds. He was a blur of motion - but he still did it with the correct power. He's the last that moves that way... no one else - no other "Sifu" that's alive can do it that way. Just him. But - we could, if we aspired to it, and trained to do it, move that fast. But we don't because it's hard... and we don't look so pretty when we move that fast, we can't do it with the correct posture and hip movement... whine whine whine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Only one - but not many train to be that fast. They forget that that was the point. Take forms training for instance. They learn it at a learner's pace - they then learn to perform it at their own pace... but they never push it, my Si Gung - the last of the truly great HK masters, always said that you had to aspire to move as fast as you possibly can move to get the most out of forms training (while still having correct hip movement and power). NOBODY trains that consistently - they learn to be pretty, to perform the form - my Sifu did the entire sup a sou form in less than 7 seconds. He was a blur of motion - but he still did it with the correct power. He's the last that moves that way... no one else - no other "Sifu" that's alive can do it that way. Just him. But - we could, if we aspired to it, and trained to do it, move that fast. But we don't because it's hard... and we don't look so pretty when we move that fast, we can't do it with the correct posture and hip movement... whine whine whine.

I think you may be assuming too much.
Sorry.
Sugar Ray Leonard had fast hands, does that mean every boxer that trains his way will have just as fast or faster?
Nope.
Exception stories stay with us because they ARE exception and NOT the norm.

[MightyB]

I think you may be assuming too much.
Sorry.
Sugar Ray Leonard had fast hands, does that mean every boxer that trains his way will have just as fast or faster?
Nope.
Exception stories stay with us because they ARE exception and NOT the norm.

But all boxers have fast hands as compared to the average individual.

Honestly - stick with tai chi or baji or something that has a moderate or long and short pace - 7* isn't for you. 7* Mantis is supposed to be fast. Anyone can train to be fast - as fast as their body allows - unfortunately you're offering them an excuse to NOT train to their potential. "Oh, I can't possibly be as fast as so and so, so I can sit on my arse and do things my way. " Quit - do something else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But all boxers have fast hands as compared to the average individual.

Honestly - stick with tai chi or baji or something that has a moderate or long and short pace - 7* isn't for you. 7* Mantis is supposed to be fast. Anyone can train to be fast - as fast as their body allows - unfortunately you're offering them an excuse to NOT train to their potential. "Oh, I can't possibly be as fast as so and so, so I can sit on my arse and do things my way. " Quit - do something else.

I don't think that pointing out that the exceptions are exception is an excuse.
It's being realistic.
Not everyone is going to be as fast as Usain Bolt are they?
If YOU take it to me that realizim is undermining ones potential that is fine and you are entitiled to that opinion.
If you want to use unproven anecodyes and stories about exception masters as motivation, I don't find anything wrong with that.
It's not as if that has ever backfired in TCMA.
:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

I don't think that pointing out that the exceptions are exception is an excuse.
It's being realistic.
Not everyone is going to be as fast as Usain Bolt are they?
If YOU take it to me that realizim is undermining ones potential that is fine and you are entitiled to that opinion.
If you want to use unproven anecodyes and stories about exception masters as motivation, I don't find anything wrong with that.
It's not as if that has ever backfired in TCMA.
:rolleyes:

Part of why TCMA kind'a sucks is because of unrealistic expectations based on fantasy associated with the powers of chi and such - and also because of lack of any kind of realistic expectations. To not know why - or what - or how - a style is supposed to work in it's most idealized state is to not know the style or be able to know the style. All the old stories of 7* deal with amazing hand speed and trapping combinations. To ignore that aspect is... dumb. To not know the methods of training to get that speed is ignorant. To ignore the advice of those who came before you who achieved that speed is ritarded.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Part of why TCMA kind'a sucks is because of unrealistic expectations based on fantasy associated with the powers of chi and such - and also because of lack of any kind of realistic expectations. To not know why - or what - or how - a style is supposed to work in it's most idealized state is to not know the style or be able to know the style. All the old stories of 7* deal with amazing hand speed and trapping combinations. To ignore that aspect is... dumb. To not know the methods of training to get that speed is ignorant. To ignore the advice of those who came before you who achieved that speed is ritarded.

You do realize that the advice that Cus D'amto gave Tyson on how to hit, he gave to all his fighters.
There is nothing wrong with what you are saying dude, my point is that to rely on the exceptional examples and make them the standard is unrealistic.
No kyokushin fighter expects to hit as hard as Oyama ( some actually hit harder as a matter of fact).
No Judoak expects to be as good as Mifune.
Strive to get there, yes of course, but being realistic of ones potential is crucial for the student AND for the teacher.
A student that is bodywise, best suited for the other aspects of Mantis, shouldn't feel downplayed because he can't hit the the lightening speed of his teacher, eh should be taught to fight with HIS strengths.
To say that Mantis is all about speed is to say that Hung Kuen is all about power or WC all about chain punching.

[MightyB]

To say that Mantis is all about speed is to say that Hung Kuen is all about power or WC all about chain punching.

Ahhh but it is... maybe CodeBoy can give the exact quote about Fan Che (something), Tong Long (something) - it's like a 6 word poem in Cantonese that I can't remember - but it basically says it all. Mantis is about speed and deception - that's its strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ahhh but it is... maybe CodeBoy can give the exact quote about Fan Che (something), Tong Long (something) - it's like a 6 word poem in Cantonese that I can't remember - but it basically says it all. Mantis is about speed and deception - that's its strength.

And in Judo, size and strength don't matter...

Allow me to reiterate my first point:
They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

[MightyB]

And in Judo, size and strength don't matter...

Allow me to reiterate my first point:
They MAY be fun, but they also lead to bad habits ( taking anecdotes as facts) and bad expectations ( just because Brendan Lai could knock your ass out before you even saw him move doesn't mean that is typical of a Mantis fighter).

You goofball - only in Judo elite competition does size and strength matter, but against an average Joe, a little guy can beat a big guy - I do it all the time. I'm 160 and routinely randori people that weigh in the 200 plus range and I do fine. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but overall I do fine. If I practiced more, I'd do better.

Your average mantite doesn't practice hard enough. Too much talk, too much tea room kung fu, not enough sweat, testing, and punishment. But if they did practice to the extreme, they could knock you out before you see it. You know one thing I take away from the great Master Lai about the ou lou choi? I'm going to paraphrase... but he said (paraphrasing) your defense with ou lou choi has to move faster and anticipate their offense. Think about that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You goofball - only in Judo elite competition does size and strength matter, but against an average Joe, a little guy can beat a big guy - I do it all the time. I'm 160 and routinely randori people that weigh in the 200 plus range and I do fine. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but overall I do fine. If I practiced more, I'd do better.

Your average mantite doesn't practice hard enough. Too much talk, too much tea room kung fu, not enough sweat, testing, and punishment. But if they did practice to the extreme, they could knock you out before you see it. You know one thing I take away from the great Master Lai about the ou lou choi? I'm going to paraphrase... but he said (paraphrasing) your defense with ou lou choi has to move faster and anticipate their offense. Think about that.

Actually, you don't need to get to the elite level for size to matter, that is why you have weight categories at any level.
As for what the Late Great Master Lai said, he is 100% right one and what he says has less to do with speed than you'd think.
Think about that.
I've seen older and slower guys light up younger faster guys and when they do it the older guys seem faster.
They aren't.

[MightyB]

Actually, you don't need to get to the elite level for size to matter, that is why you have weight categories at any level.
As for what the Late Great Master Lai said, he is 100% right one and what he says has less to do with speed than you'd think.
Think about that.
I've seen older and slower guys light up younger faster guys and when they do it the older guys seem faster.
They aren't.

They have weight classes in non-elite competitions because even Judo has its fair share of pu$$ies. :D So when I was a newbie green, I was at the Michigan open and there was a black belt super heavyweight that wanted to compete, yet all the browns that were in his weight category were too pu$$yish to shiai him and there were no blacks in his category. A middle weight black belt stepped up to the plate and Shiai'd him. He won. That's true Judo spirit. I've resolved it in my mind that I'd behave in the same way as that middle weight. Even losing would be a win in that circumstance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They have weight classes in non-elite competitions because even Judo has its fair share of pu$$ies. :D So when I was a newbie green, I was at the Michigan open and there was a black belt super heavyweight that wanted to compete, yet all the browns that were in his weight category were too pu$$yish to shiai him and there were no blacks in his category. A middle weight black belt stepped up to the plate and Shiai'd him. He won. That's true Judo spirit. I've resolved it in my mind that I'd behave in the same way as that middle weight. Even losing would be a win in that circumstance.

Well done by the BB.
And while I don't disagree with what you are saying in regards to the spirit of judo or 7* Mantis, I stand by my point that anecdotal stories of past masters have their pros and cons and in my personal experience i have seen more cons in TCMA than pros.

[-N-]

I have some suspicions as to who the other critic's Sifu was - if my suspicions are true, then his Sifu had a b'itch'n real life story that involves being so fast with the ou lou choi that he smacked a c'ocky euro-kick boxer in the mouth before he could blink.

Your suspicions are correct.

Not being a critic. Just stating the fact that my teacher didn't use stories of back alley fights with Wing Chun people to inspire us.

We did hear a little about them on occasion. But the inspiration was just from seeing him move while he taught class. He didn't tell us about Mantis. He just showed us.

He would tell certain people, "Less talk and more practice make one a better Praying Mantis." Kind of the antithesis to the existence of this forum.

I had one classmate who had little tolerance for talk. He would get a disgusted look on his face and end the debate with, "Then show me." Usually he and I just practiced off to the side on our own.

[-N-]

He didn't tell us about Mantis. He just showed us.

Then he would yell at us, "IT'S SO SIMPLE! WHY CAN'T YOU DO IT??!?!!"

[-N-]

Then he would yell at us, "IT'S SO SIMPLE! WHY CAN'T YOU DO IT??!?!!"

And if you got it right, then he would say, "Go help the others."

[Thomas316]

hello everyone, the replies just motivated me to work on my mantis forms. does anyone have drills to develop tremendous speed when performing forms?

[-N-]

hello everyone, the replies just motivated me to work on my mantis forms. does anyone have drills to develop tremendous speed when performing forms?

Work on your applications instead. You can't defeat your opponent with a fast form.

And regarding speed... There's not much to being fast. Everything you need to know can be shown in a few minutes. The problem is that most people just don't get it.

I tell the students, "There are no secrets. I showed you all that in the first day of class. You just need to practice."

[-N-]

does anyone have drills to develop tremendous speed when performing forms?

Did your teacher ever show you how to hit people fast? Just drill on that.

[-N-]

This stuff happened 50 years ago but its still a great resource to here the stories.


While it is always interesting to know what was done in the PAST, we must live in the times we live, the here and now.
Mantis, like any other MA, if it is to be known as a fighting system NOW, must be demonstrated to be a fighting system NOW..

Maybe people should share their modern day stories.

Here's a funny one about iron body conditioning. My training partner and I were the only ones in class to practice that regularly. The other classmates would see us train, and they'd say, "Oh, we should do that too." And they'd go at it sporadically.

At that time, we were in Golden Gate park. Sifu Adam Hsu and Sifu Doc Fai Wong had classes there too.

There was a student from one of the other classes that we thought was a little rude. He would walk up to our teacher and address him by his first name. He kind of looked down his nose at us, as if he thought he was better somehow.

We didn't talk to him, but we made sure to give everything we had when we did our body conditioning for warmup.(I guess that meant we had weak egos, because we really shouldn't have cared.) It got to the point that the other classes could hear the body impact from the other side of the park, and they would stop what they were doing and stare.

One of our classmates came over and said, "I should do that too. Can I join you guys?"

My partner went first. And I never had a chance to have a turn. The classmate came back a week later and showed us that the entire right side of his upper torso was purple and yellow from the impact of the body strike. In our minds, we kept an ideal for that training, which was something that Musashi said. "You should be able to kill your opponent with a body/shoulder strike."

Years later, my partner relocated to L.A. Our teacher sent him to become a student of Sifu Jiang Hao Quan.

One day he was paired up with a classmate who was much larger than him. They were supposed to be training a particular thing, but his partner kept doing some grapple/throw that he was not supposed to do. My classmate got tired of that, and the next time he got grabbed for a throw, he used the Praying Mantis short force body strike that we had trained. The other guy went flying, and he had no clue what had happened. Sifu Jiang had seen the whole thing, and he gave my classmate a disapproving half smile and a slight shake of the head meaning, "Don't use that on your classmate."

My classmate has since returned and we both teach at the park on weekends. Lately we've been bringing an 80lb heavy bag to the park for students to work on their power and their short force body strikes.

[EarthDragon]

Work on your applications instead. You can't defeat your opponent with a fast form.
quote from -N-

and I love it!

[MightyB]

He would tell certain people, "Less talk and more practice make one a better Praying Mantis."

LOL
If I had a dollar for every time I heard that from my own Sifu... I'd be moderately wealthy. :D

[MightyB]

hello everyone, the replies just motivated me to work on my mantis forms. does anyone have drills to develop tremendous speed when performing forms?

Try to go a little faster every time you do the form. Don't sacrifice correct technique for speed - go as fast as you can while moving correctly.

[-N-]

LOL
If I had a dollar for every time I heard that from my own Sifu... I'd be moderately wealthy. :D

That must have been a saying from the HK days, haha.

Talking and not paying attention was the start of the Ghost Kicker story that you've probably heard.

[-N-]

Work on your applications instead. You can't defeat your opponent with a fast form.


quote from -N-

and I love it!

And even applications aren't enough. Most people seem to have a problem with having the spirit to take out the other guy.

Chinese call it "having gall". Here we say having guts or having balls.

We have to work with students on this a lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing that must be mentioned in regards to the speed attribute.
Doing a form in the air with speed is a great learning tool, but it can create some issues and bad habits ( like putting on the "brakes").
Speedy combinations on the air are one thing, doing them against resistance is another.
Ask any Kenpo guy ;)

When resistance is added to the equation, be it a body or apd or HB, you will see that "vaunted" speed and smoothness suddenly "disappear", or what you have are "slaps" with very little behind them ( back to the kenpo analogy).

One MUST drill speed AGAINST resistance.

[-N-]

One MUST drill speed AGAINST resistance.

+1

Just say no to kung fu slap fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I always have in my mind a vivid memory:
We had a guy come in as a visitor at my old TKD dojang, he was a kenpo BB and friend of one of the guys there.
Fast hands was an understatement.
When we sparred the hands were just as fast, but weak and not enough force to do anything other than irritate.
I put him on his knees with a left hook to the body.
The again with a side kick to the ribs.
( We sparred full contact at red belt and above at that school).
He hit me more, just not hard enough to make much of a difference and he was a tad bigger than me ( I was 150 at the time and he was 180 from what he said).
Later on, when doing the bag after class, I saw that even on the bag his strikes were very fast but left no "lasting impression" on the HB either.

[Thomas316]

N, whats the ghost kicker story?

by the way, thanks for the responses. i will definitely try to perform my forms faster each time i perform them.

[YouKnowWho]

speed attribute.

Sometime speed is a good way to solve problem in a civilized way. If you can touch your hands on your opponent's face 5 or 6 times before he could even raise his guards, your oppponent may lose desire to fight you after that. Speed by itself may not be able to hurt people. But it can generate a scary feeling and that may be able to end a fight.

Prey Mantis Master Brendan Lai loved to use this trick to handle challenge fights. His famouse saying was, "In my next strike, I'll blind you." How many challengers are willing to take the risk to be a blind man for the rest of his life?

[-N-]

Prey Mantis Master Brendan Lai loved to use this trick to handle challenge fights. His famouse saying was, "In my next strike, I'll blind you." How many challengers are willing to take the risk to be a blind man for the rest of his life?
Doesn't take much power for eye(or groin) strikes.

He used to joke that when Praying Mantis and Eagle Claw fought each other, Praying Mantis would have to wear throat protection and Eagle Claw would have to wear eye protection.

Actually that reminds me of a story where he was betrayed and attacked by one of his own students. During the fight, he was about to blind the student with an eye attack. But he changed changed his move as he made contact, and used his fingertips to close the student's eyelids.

[YouKnowWho]

he was betrayed and attacked by one of his own students.

He should just sent another student (or students) to do that job instead of having to do it himself.

[-N-]

He should just sent another student (or students) to do that job instead of having to do it himself.

Kind of hard to do that if the guy just comes up to you saying that you have nothing left to teach him, and just outright attacks you.

[MightyB]

And even applications aren't enough. Most people seem to have a problem with having the spirit to take out the other guy.

Chinese call it "having gall". Here we say having guts or having balls.

We have to work with students on this a lot.

This is where true TCMA is too deadly for competition really comes from. The truth is, TCMA such as 7* really is too deadly for competition <<gasp>>.

Things such as eye gouging, throat striking, ear slapping, joint breaking, etc are nasty to think about, much less do - yet they are paramount to the style's effectiveness. We live in a peaceful age and we are civilized.

Fire away nuttriders but there is truth to what some of the forum's posters say - that real TCMA if you see it IS TOO DEADLY FOR THE RING. Believe it or not, seeing real kung fu is an amazing but rare experience.

I don't have the gall to blind or kill someone, but if I were to really need to learn a H2H style for real because I needed it to survive - I'd do a legit TCMA such as 7* or Eagle Claw over BJJ.

----

When I first started 7*, my Sihing Chris used to talk about the ghost kicker stories, but sadly I didn't listen.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was a young man, in the early 60's, I lived in New Orleans. I worked in a Chinese resaurant. Some cooking, but mostly cleaning and such. After work I would walk a distance to my home, and I would pass through a small city park. There was a group of young Asians there one day, and they were doing a form of gung fu that I was not familiar with. I stood and watched, and did so for several days. Then one day one of them asked me if I wanted to learn this gung fu. It was Called Preying Mantis. I declined the offer. When asked why not, I told them that I had spent many years learning gung fu and was not interested in learning more. When I spoke the words, Wing Chun, I was immediately set up by the leader of this group. He tried to instigate a fight. I did not want to fight him so declined, and was called me a coward and a liar. He challenged me to fight and told me that if he had to he would come to my home or work to get me. I had until Saturday of the next week he said. I was approached by many people, and they all told me to run away and not fight because he was one of the best ever, and that he was absolutely brutal in a fight. I told my boss, and he told me that I had to fight him. I spoke to may dad and he said I had to fight him. I considered leaving town because of this. I was afraid. It was said that he was going to literally beat me to death. Indeed, he was good and it showed in his gung fu training in the park.
Come that Saturday, I walked from my work to the park. I was there early, and there were several people there that were pulling for me. When we squared off I told myself, fight like my life depended upon it. Show no quarter and ask none. I tore into the fellow, who was much taller and heavier than myself, and I beat him so severely that it was thought he would die from his injuries. I was actually shunned by my peers because of this. My boss fired me, and my dad was even upset at me. My friends looked at me differently and would not have much to do with me because of it. I could have been more civilzed I suppose, but he said he was going to do the same thing to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is where true TCMA is too deadly for competition really comes from. The truth is, TCMA such as 7* really is too deadly for competition <<gasp>>.

Things such as eye gouging, throat striking, ear slapping, joint breaking, etc are nasty to think about, much less do - yet they are paramount to the style's effectiveness. We live in a peaceful age and we are civilized.

Fire away nuttriders but there is truth to what some of the forum's posters say - that real TCMA if you see it IS TOO DEADLY FOR THE RING. Believe it or not, seeing real kung fu is an amazing but rare experience.

I don't have the gall to blind or kill someone, but if I were to really need to learn a H2H style for real because I needed it to survive - I'd do a legit TCMA such as 7* or Eagle Claw over BJJ.

----

When I first started 7*, my Sihing Chris used to talk about the ghost kicker stories, but sadly I didn't listen.

One can argue that those things are NOT needed, many people surive fights without resorting to them.
I cna also be argued that id one can't do "gross motor skills' ( punching and kicking) effectively in a fight then "fine motor skills" ( eye strikes and throat shots) are even less likely to work.
One can aslo argue that since those things can't be trained one will never know how effective they truly are.
All that said, all those things were permitted in "vale tudo" matches that have happened since the mid 1900's and the results have been consistent.

[MightyB]

One can argue that those things are NOT needed, many people surive fights without resorting to them.
I cna also be argued that id one can't do "gross motor skills' ( punching and kicking) effectively in a fight then "fine motor skills" ( eye strikes and throat shots) are even less likely to work.
One can aslo argue that since those things can't be trained one will never know how effective they truly are.
All that said, all those things were permitted in "vale tudo" matches that have happened since the mid 1900's and the results have been consistent.

TCMA "styles" are fine motor skills and should be taught after gross motor skill development. Unfortunately people see the result "C", but don't want to put in the effort and work of "A & B". I believe that a person should learn an art such as shuai jiao, judo, boxing, kickboxing, san shou, etc prior to learning a refined style. That being said, once you enter into the domain of a TCMA style - you have to commit fully or you won't get results. You can't be a "chicken" pretending to be a "duck" so to speak. 7* is about using all of your skills that you develop to land one or more decisive blows. It isn't about pugilism or trading blows. It's about killing quickly. Think about the martial arts being represented in the movie "Taken". Yes I know that that movie was Jeff Imada choreography and Lliam's boxing background, but the movie fighting did represent how TCMAs like 7* would have been played in the past. If you studied 7*, one thing you'd see is how early you learn to chop the throat. There's a reason for that. You didn't want to engage someone - you wanted to feint or trap their hands out of position and strike their throat hard. I.E - quick kill. Like N said earlier - "it's about having gall". Even in a vale tudo match or the famous Police Jiu Jitsu competition that put Judo on the map - I believe that a person would have been hard pressed to find the gumption to use a lethal attack. If you don't commit to the style and use it for how it was intended - it's not going to work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TCMA "styles" are fine motor skills and should be taught after gross motor skill development. Unfortunately people see the result "C", but don't want to put in the effort and work of "A & B". I believe that a person should learn an art such as shuai jiao, judo, boxing, kickboxing, san shou, etc prior to learning a refined style. That being said, once you enter into the domain of a TCMA style - you have to commit fully or you won't get results. You can't be a "chicken" pretending to be a "duck" so to speak. 7* is about using all of your skills that you develop to land one or more decisive blows. It isn't about pugilism or trading blows. It's about killing quickly. Think about the martial arts being represented in the movie "Taken". Yes I know that that movie was Jeff Imada choreography and Lliam's boxing background, but the movie fighting did represent how TCMAs like 7* would have been played in the past. If you studied 7*, one thing you'd see is how early you learn to chop the throat. There's a reason for that. You didn't want to engage someone - you wanted to feint or trap their hands out of position and strike their throat hard. I.E - quick kill. Like N said earlier - "it's about having gall". Even in a vale tudo match or the famous Police Jiu Jitsu competition that put Judo on the map - I believe that a person would have been hard pressed to find the gumption to use a lethal attack. If you don't commit to the style and use it for how it was intended - it's not going to work.

I agree that many TCMA, 7* is an example of such, are indeed "advanced" MA and to be take up when a solid core is established.
Although one can argue from the noted evidence that basics are what win fights.
Every MA I have studied has advocated "quick kill" and none has every advocated "trading blows", western boxing inculded.
Certainly you MAY end up doing just that, but every MA wants to end a fight as quick as possible with as minimal amount of "trading blows" as possible.

[mooyingmantis]

I cna also be argued that id one can't do "gross motor skills' ( punching and kicking) effectively in a fight then "fine motor skills" ( eye strikes and throat shots) are even less likely to work.

I view eye-gouging as a "gung". A skill in itself that must be developed. It is certainly a higher art form. Yet the arm action is no different than a lead jab or a reverse punch.

Unlike many TCMA attacks, eye-gouging requires less power and more speed. The emphasis must be on speed! And the key to speed is relaxed, natural motions done quickly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I view eye-gouging as a "gung". A skill in itself that must be developed. It is certainly a higher art form. Yet the arm action is no different than a lead jab or a reverse punch.

Unlike many TCMA attacks, eye-gouging requires less power and more speed. The emphasis must be on speed! And the key to speed is relaxed, natural motions done quickly.

Absolutely, highly specialized system require specialized "gungs", of that there isn't much doubt.