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CD Lee
10-31-2001, 09:23 PM
I watched my first Shotokan Karate matches last night on TV ever. I was absolutely appalled at the lack of skill displayed by these guys as reguards throwing and taking punches.

I mean, you have got to be kidding right??? Has anyone seen these guys? They were constantly off balance all the time while trying to deliver strikes and defend themselves. I could not believe what I was seeing, as these guys KNOW they are going to go at it in the RING.

It was just pathetic really. The kicks were *ok*, but they even could not defend against kicks well either. This was the world championship, whatever that means? They acted like if they took one shot, they would collapse and die on the spot!

When they finally put boxing gloves on, it was acutally better, but still pretty sad. These guys were totally scared to COMMIT their weight and stance enought to deliver anyting with power. Plus, the whole off balance thing was too much.

Hope I am not stepping on too many toes here

Johnny Hot Shot
10-31-2001, 09:31 PM
Not even going to touch this one with a 10 ft pole.

Take a Shotokan Class.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

Sharky
10-31-2001, 09:34 PM
Moron

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

Budokan
10-31-2001, 09:55 PM
Troll. --And much too blatant about your trolling. What an amateur. :rolleyes:

K. Mark Hoover

CD Lee
10-31-2001, 10:06 PM
Sorry guys...

Morons, if I was a troll WTF am I doing on a Kung Fu board saying something bad about Karate?!? Let me clarify:

The guys I saw sucked at balance and delivery. They were not performing Karate very well. I have seen this in boxing, kickboxing and the UFC too.

I just thought the gentlement doing the fighting were ill prepared or scared or something.

A troll? Ok, you got me. BJJ RULES DUDE. That why I take Kung Fu.

JWT, sorry man, I have no idea why you wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole. You've got the wrong idea. Educate me in my email. It is in my profile

CD Lee
10-31-2001, 10:08 PM
You are witch hunting man. Go read all of my posts. Your right, I would make a bad troll.

Johnny Hot Shot
10-31-2001, 10:13 PM
I'm Johnny Hot shot. Not JWT, Totally different dude.. I'm better looking :D

Seriously Though you should do some research and check out your local Shotokan Dojo before you slag their style.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

Budokan
10-31-2001, 10:14 PM
Frankly, I've got better things to do than research your past posts. Thanks for the offer anyway, but I'll decline. :rolleyes:

And whether you like it or not you came across as a troll in the first post of this thread. It's to your credit you realized that and have now backed off that position and clarified what it was you were actually talking about.

K. Mark Hoover

Taomonkey
10-31-2001, 10:22 PM
CD Lee
If it was on ESPN last night it was not Shotokan but the SHIDOKAN a MMA group who's fights consist of 3 rounds of "bare knuckle" 3 rounds of Kickboxing, and the remaining rounds in grappling/submission.
Have never seen Shotokan, but I have to agree with you about these Shidokan dudes,, they suck arse, boring boring boring, full of crappy martial arts!!!!!!

No trolling here, just the truth!

Budokan
10-31-2001, 10:29 PM
Well, that explains it. He got the two names mixed up. An excusable error; I'll get off my high horse now--although it's a LOOOONNGG way down.

I missed the match on ESPN because I was watching the World Series. Still, I would have liked to seen it, and I figure that these two guys, from what I've heard, are not very good representatives of their respective art.

K. Mark Hoover

Johnny Hot Shot
10-31-2001, 10:45 PM
Still resarch before you slag any style.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

fa_jing
10-31-2001, 11:14 PM
I saw the Shidokan special on TV. I thought it was very entertaining, in that it was something I had never seen before, and there were a lot of knockouts. But, I agree that the lack of skill was startling. Looked alot like the kickboxing everyone's putting down on the "why do some kung fu guys fight like kickboxers" thread. A lot of guys that seemed afraid to engage. Of course, I don't know if I would do any better. Even though the quality of the fighters needs to improve, it's a big step up from the converted boxers throwing 3 kicks a round in the kickboxing matches I used to see on TV 10 years ago. Did you hang around to see the end? The highlight reel of knockouts was pretty good at the end. -FJ

CD Lee
10-31-2001, 11:25 PM
Thanks Tao, one lousy letter, and the wrath of Heaven falls on me :D :D Ok, I sounded like a troll, but I was just excited.

Yes, that is the show I saw. And I stand by what I said about the delivery. I am not slagging their style, but their application delivery. I watched 3 matches, and they were all terribly sloppy. Once they moved into punching range, they were not set to throw, but leaning all over the place, punch moving to the right, body leaning to the left. Just bad technique basics. Oh, and they were falling down constantly when the other guy had not even landed anything! Ridiculous.

I was just p1ssed that these guys showed up to fight like that.

CD Lee
10-31-2001, 11:33 PM
Yes, I watched those highlights, and they were entertaining, but did you really look at them closely? Those KO's were what you get when you get an unprepared overweight chump like me in the ring with guys who are conditioned to fight. Those kind of KO's should be the exception.

Plus, most of those guys totally folded when they took one solid shot ANYWHERE. That one guy was knocked out with the second thight kick he recieved? I know it hurts, but two kicks to the leg and he is munching canvass for dinner. Those guys were just not prepared to take shots period

Taomonkey
10-31-2001, 11:50 PM
J Hot Shot
I think the comments on the style are fair.
Those guys suck. No fundamentals, no foundation, no balance..just sad.
Just another ESPN time filler showcasing the same kind of paul mitchel forms crap. :(

Shaolindynasty
10-31-2001, 11:59 PM
You guys are talkin about the Sheidokan in Chicago? That is a good tournament, I saw it in person about 2 years ago. Hmmm ESPN2 was taping the one I was at maybe that was the one.....but the championships were good I have no idea what you guys are talking about. If that is the riht one look for me in the front row getting kicked out of my seat, me and my friend stole some ringside booths for about half the fights but got caught :( Anyway if you are talkin about the sheidokan in Chicago you are nuts!

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

KungFuGuy!
11-01-2001, 12:11 AM
A lot of the thai kickboxing I see on TV or on the computer looks unbalanced and awkward, but that doesn't mean thai kickboxing sucks.

CD Lee
11-01-2001, 12:20 AM
No no...I have NEVER seen Tai Boxers look off balance like these guys were. Not a whole slew of them anyways.

Are you farmiliar with Boxing term "Paluka"? It is a very real proffesion. Professional losers, that lose almost every single fight. It is not rigged, but these guys have NO TALENT, and just cannot win. The have records in boxing like 12-56. Rarely are their true recoreds announced, and they litter the top boxers' records. They fight under multiple names and have tons of fights. That is what these guys looked like.

If you saw that show last night, and think that was good skill being displayed, you have never watched or undertood what is happening in a contest where punches or kicks are thrown with intent to injure or make contact.

Wongsifu
11-01-2001, 12:27 AM
in all fairness these guys look ok when practising , deliver lots of power , but their dsparring does suck , because its point orientated , it doesnt matter if you hit with a power ful straight reverse punch , or if you hit the guy with the pinkie from your left toe when super extended, you still get the point , so its much easier to do doggie paddle attacks than to stand there and fight. also easier to jump about avoiding punches rather than to hold a stance and use footwork, which will aid you to block a powerful punch.
oh well

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

Piccolo Junior
11-01-2001, 03:35 AM
Proof that Oyama's "Practical Karate" doesn't always produce good results.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

don bohrer
11-01-2001, 03:49 AM
I caught the last few minutes of it. (That will do it for this years Shidoken tournament!) **** ESPN for not telling me about the event in person, I caught the wrap up.

gfhegel21
11-01-2001, 04:27 AM
Uh, you only get points if you visibly stun your opponent. No points at all for even hard blows if they don't have an effect.

If you got in the ring with these guys I think you'd be very surprised at the power in their strikes.

Not saying that they are the best fighters in the world, but that's what fighting usually looks like: messy. That's part of being a good fighter: messing up the other guy's game so he is off balance.

rogue
11-01-2001, 05:52 AM
I think they were timid so they could get to the gloved round intact.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

ewallace
05-01-2002, 11:21 AM
I watched a few matches for the first time on ESPN2 last night. At first I thought it kind of sucked. Then after seeing a couple matches I began to really like the way the matches are structured. The first three rounds were bare-knuckle (no closed fist strikes to the face), rounds 4-6 were Thai kickboxing (with 10 oz gloves) and rounds 7-9 were grappling (5 oz open hand gloves). Anybody else familiar with this type of fighting?

nightair
05-01-2002, 03:02 PM
I'm not familiar with it but I watched the same thing and i though it was set up pretty neat.

CD Lee
05-01-2002, 10:25 PM
It was fun to watch I will admit. However, what really gets me is that I just do not see Karate in those matches most of the time. I see just kickboxing with a few twists. Did anybody ever see a classic Karate block once? How about an elbow technique or anything other than just boxing and some kicking.

These guys should be allowed to go at the groins too. How very different the techniques and styles would be if the groin attacks were legal like they are in a fight were we have to actually defend ourselves.

joedoe
05-01-2002, 10:33 PM
Interesting format.

Dark Knight
05-02-2002, 02:10 PM
Ive seen this a couple times on ESPN over the ast couple years. I think its their answer to NHB, but more structured. It shows strengths in the three areas of fighting. But I like to see them combined into one event.

DragonzRage
05-02-2002, 03:18 PM
Shidokan is frikkin hardcore and wicked! Very intense competition. Karate may not be my cup o' tea but i respect the hell outta those shidokan fighters. And i also think its a really good format because it covers many important facets of fighting and also provides a format for karate guys to use more of their stuff (ie the bare knuckle, no fists to the face rounds).

CD Lee,
I actually think that a good number of shidokan guys do apply a lot of karate techniques and principles, altho i must admit I've never taken a day of karate in my life. Just from what i can observe tho. I agree that you hardly ever see classical karate blocks and whatnot, but how often do you see that stuff in ANY full contact fighting format. Some people are too harsh on karate, but i think that hardcore karate has definite strengths. However, the fact remains that a lot of the classical techniques simply are not functional. That's why you'll never see them in the ring. JMO

SifuAbel
05-03-2002, 11:51 PM
A simple block is not functional? How do you figure that? As it was there were a few blocks, but they were mostly in the muay thai section, go figure.

I saw the the first couple of rounds. The uniformed fighting looked like muay thai knee lifts with alot of gi grabbing clinches. A few punches but nothing really devastating. The second set of rounds had more striking and more combinations. You see spin back fists and more complex fist and foot combos. Didn't see the grappling part.

They were not going for the knock out. They wouldn't have much of a show if it eneded in round one. A few medium power stingers but no real incapacitating moves. At least in the first parts. I didn't see the last round or the grappling. Who won, BTW. And how?

CD Lee
05-07-2002, 03:20 PM
Sifu Abel:
Sounds like you know what you were watching. It is not that I am raggin on these guys skills. It is just that it looks so sportish to me. You are so right about the power. Hardly anything there to do quick fight-ending damage. I know these guys would surely not fight the same way in a street fight or bar fight!

My real point is that they are fighting more like boxers and kick-boxers, as far as intent and rhythm. Hit a little, back up a little, a little side to side, throw again, don't commit too much, look at the guy again, take another crack, he is not going all out on you...etc, etc. Now, I firmly believe, and I mean firmly, that if you were to take a top 20 boxer, they would have obliterated every single ****okan guy in that ring before we got to the grappling stage. These guys as a group, do not puch that well in a boxing format. I am convinced that their punches and strikes are far better in a bar situation.

The greatest drawback to transfering boxing skills to real fights is that in boxing, the opponents cannot grab your arms with thier hands, so you can keep punching, worrying only about the clinch. In a real fight, you have to compact everything into a smaller space. If you strike, take the fastest line, step into the guy, and if you miss, grab, turn, and get an angle or take him off his centerline IMMEDIATELY. When he is off balance, strike again and flow.

All in all, I think they should skip the stand-up sections, and allow a fight using Karate.

Ohhh...my other tangent. They way they do standing eight counts is extreemly dangerous for the health of the fighters!!!!! they prolong a guy beyond his logical point of injury and loss, simply to allow him to be pulverized again potentially when he is clearly damaged. This is one reason boxing used to be so very dangerous. Either let them knock him out, thus ending the fight, no more punishment....or stop the fight if he is too hurt, ending the fight, no more punishment.

Shaolindynasty
05-08-2002, 02:01 PM
What!?! I went to the Shidokan in chicago about 2 years ago and every fight ended with a knockout. Maybe it didn't look powerful because in the bare knuckle karate round there is no face punches and gloves in the Muay Thai round of course but that third round where it's more "NHB style" there was always a knock out. Those guys are really tough.

Asj Cung Le how tough fighting ShidoKan is, I read an interview that said he couldn't move his leg for a week and he won!

NPMantis
07-31-2002, 01:40 PM
Hi all,

I've recently been thinking about changing martial art styles, just looking for something suited more to me, so I've visited quit a few different kung fu classes (mainly WC), anyway, I got a leaflet through the door about a new local karate club and thought I'd go along for a look out of interest and took an open mind with me.

I must say I was surprised, they flow a lot better than I thought they would, thought I note no grappling - not even simple stuff like grabs were practiced, which is a shame. They are supposed to be all rigid but I didn't really see any evidence of that.

The instructor was very good and showed everyone the techniques well. My own personal thoughts thought were that the techniques did not have the same level of fighting speed/efficiency as those I have learnt from kung fu - though obviously I have only seen one lesson so that's not exactly built on a solid foundation!

The class sparred quite a lot, not all of it free sparring, but they all seemed very competant - they all flowed pretty well and were fast/powerful, all in all very impressed, but it's not really the right style for me.

Anyone had any similar experiences?

It sounds stupid but the more styles of martial arts I see, the less green the grass seems on the other side.

Shaolindynasty
07-31-2002, 01:54 PM
My Sifu did shotokan in brazil before he learned kungfu. He said his sensei was in the japanese army and was extermly tough. He told me a story about him and this guy he didn't like sparring at the school and said he was choking the guy and was getting kicked repeatedly in the kidney. My sifu broke a blood vessel in his kidney and the other guy was knocked out. Brutal stuff (I always heard before this all shotokan did was forms). He also said his sensei would let the students hit him full strength anywhere during sparring(bare knuckle) and he would laugh at them!!!!


The more I practice the more I don't care where it comes from. With that said I've been thinking of taking up a japanese style (traditional okinawan karate is interesting to me also kendo and judo sounds good). I've always respected the spirit behind the japanese arts.

dezhen2001
07-31-2002, 02:28 PM
Shotokan is pretty good. I trained that for 13 years before i met my Sifu :) We did some competition stuff, but also mainly the stuff u can't use in a kumite... lots of kata application and principles. It inclded some grabbing, locking, throwing and closer stuff... was real good :) I've used it along with the aikido i also learned a lot when things have gone bad...

david

rogue
07-31-2002, 08:07 PM
Glad you got to see some good Shotokan, goodness knows there are many bad schools out there. Glad to see they sparred.

phantom
10-04-2002, 09:51 AM
It seems like, no matter where you live, you will be able to find at least one shotokan school near you. However, there are many other styles of karate that may not have any schools anywhere near where you live. There also seems to be much more books and videos on shotokan than any other style of karate. What do you think the reason for this is? I think that it is because it is a relatively simple art to learn compared to many other styles. I also think that people are attracked to shotokan's "one punch kill" philosophy. Shotokan even has a certain punch that supposedly there is no defense against . This same punch can also supposedly knock out an attacker if it connects, although I am skeptical that it could do so against an attacker who is high on drugs. I think this style can definitely work on the street if you can find the right instructor. However, most shotokan, and karate schools in general, in the United States are very sport, competition oriented, which hurts a person's ability to use the style for self-defense. What are you thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.

SevenStar
10-04-2002, 06:53 PM
To answer your original question - ginchin funakoshi.

to comment on the rest of your post, I don't think people get into shotokan because of the one punch kill. Not in this day and age. If that were the case, people would be seeking out good dim mak teachers too. People train in shotokan because it's there. TKD is the most popular MA in the world. Wherever you are, chances are there is either a karate or a TKD school. it's convenient for people to take. Not that that's entirely a bad thing - I've seen some VERY good TKD and karate out there, but like all arts, there are frauds and teachers who don't care about properly training their students.

I don't know of the punch you are speaking of, but how many times have you heard the same thing about CMA? constantly. matter of factly, on the internal thread, someone just mentioned that their teacher has a sword style that NOBODY can defend, or something to that effect.

Sport competition doesn't necessarily hurt a person's ability to defend themselves - the format does. point sparring may do that, but full contact sports will only enhance it, for a number of reasons.

1. the contact - it will be the closest simulation you have to fighting in the street. Also, it teaches you how to cope with absorbing a blow. That is of extreme importance.

2. the training. Ever notice how sport fighters tend to be in better shape than hobbyists and those who only train for self defense? they may need that conditioning on the street if they ever have to run, or if they are facing multiple attackers. people that are in better shape also tend to be more coordinated.

and karate can be very complex, you have to learn the principles behind the forms, just as in CMA. It's not such a simple art to master.

shaolinboxer
10-05-2002, 04:54 PM
The phrase "one punch, one kill" (ichi go, ichi e) does not specifically refer to killing someone with a punch.

It expresses the ideal of resolving a situation with a single, definitive, "perfect" action.

SevenStar
10-05-2002, 09:11 PM
maybe people think that because of that translation you used. I was always told (and I could be wrong) that it was "one encounter, one chance" when looked at in that manner, it applies to more than the one punch kill.

omegapoint
10-06-2002, 04:30 AM
Actually the original Okinawan term was "Uchichiesu" or "the one DECIDING blow/strike". The intricacies of the Okinawan dialect often are overlooked when principles are translated to the Japanese language and culture. This philosophy can be strategic as well as tactical. Real karate teaches you to rain down blows from various angles. That first straight punch to the nose or the last strike to the jaw can often be the decisive blow(s). Conversely, using your head and psychological tactics may be the decisive action.

Shotokan is a very organized and well-governed system; at least compared to the countless other ryu or ryuha out there. There is no one governing body, but the popular JKA (Japan Karate Assoc.) is large, influential and rich. It has a huge student base, and its offshoots like Kyokushinkai, are made even more popular by K1 and similar competitive formats. Shotokan is a combination of Goju and Shorin Ryu. Old school Shotokan was very street oriented; a "jutsu" instead of a "Do". For comparison read "Karate Jutsu" and compare it to the safer and modified "Karate-Do Kyohan", both by Gichin Funakoshi. The Japanese and Funakoshi changed the original intent from one of a self-defense art to a schoolboy sport for physical fitness.

Funakoshi is respected by some Okinawans and dissed by many. Many of the kata Funakoshi learned were modified by Okinawan teachers as many were wary of his intentions with their "baby". He was not regarded as a true "Master" by many of his Okinawan contemporaries. All-in-all Shotokan is a rigid, linear and strength oriented system with deep stances and very hard blocks and punches. High kicks abound, as do spinning and jumping kicks. All of these techs are alright to learn but really are not prudent in reality for many reasons. They do up to 30-35 kata, and many think this is overkill.

Still Shotokan is a good modern Japanese karate style. There are good Shotokan teachers and dojo out there. Otsuka Sensei's Cali dojo and org. is one that comes to mind.

Leonidas
10-06-2002, 04:50 AM
Thats called good marketing phantom, but dont think that many schools means its the best. The Okinawans were very secretive, they didn't want everyone practicing karate(especially not the Japanese, but they couldn't stop them) and they sure as hell didn't want it to be practiced worldwide as a sport

SevenStar
10-07-2002, 10:47 AM
omega,

what's the okinawan approach to internal development? I've seen sanchin, learned some of it, and know it's an internal set, but my friend moved back to Japan before we got through all of it, and the intricacies of it.

shaolinboxer
10-07-2002, 12:27 PM
http://www.apartment.co.jp/e/ichigo_ichie_e.html

Interesting.

shaolinboxer
10-07-2002, 12:30 PM
http://www.michionline.org/spring00/page10.html

ah, this explains it pretty well I think.

"The phrase ichi-go; ichi-e--"one encounter; one opportunity"--was popularized by Naosuke Ii in a treatise he wrote in the 19th century entitled Chanoyu Ichi-e Shu. Ii used "ichi-go; ichi-e" to describe the spirit of the tea ceremony. The temporal quality of the art of tea, he said, "gives a feel of the exquisite evanescence of nature." The practice of the budo achieves a similar quality. Like the rising of a full moon on a particular autumn night, every session, every performance of technique, is unique. The budo are ripe with the flavor of ichi-go; ichi-e. "

Budokan
10-07-2002, 04:18 PM
"Shotokan even has a certain punch that supposedly there is no defense against"

There is no such punch in shotokan and I've never even heard anything or anyone (who knows anything about shotokan and MA in general) make such a claim.

"High kicks abound, as do spinning and jumping kicks."

Nope. Shotokan does have some high kicks (i.e. kicks above the waist), but they do not abound, nor are they regarded as part and parcel of the standard curriculum. Ditto for the spinning and jumping kicks. Shotokan isn't about flash. Repeat after me: Shotokan isn't about flash. Good boy.

"All of these techs are alright to learn but really are not prudent in reality for many reasons."

Perhaps, but you won't be learning a high kicks, spinning and jumping kicks in shotokan so the argument as to why they would not be prudent in reality (whatever that means) is an empty one.

"They do up to 30-35 kata, and many think this is overkill."

Wrong again. There aren't that many accepted kata in shotokan.

omegapoint
10-07-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Budokan

Nope. Shotokan does have some high kicks (i.e. kicks above the waist), but they do not abound, nor are they regarded as part and parcel of the standard curriculum. Ditto for the spinning and jumping kicks. Shotokan isn't about flash. Repeat after me: Shotokan isn't about flash. Good boy.


Perhaps, but you won't be learning a high kicks, spinning and jumping kicks in shotokan so the argument as to why they would not be prudent in reality (whatever that means) is an empty one.


Wrong again. There aren't that many accepted kata in shotokan.

I guess I was wrong about the interpretation of what I saw being practiced. I did see the greens, browns and blacks practicing many high, fancy kicks. This was a JKA dojo that possibly integrated these kicks into their school's curriculum.

As for kata, I know that they use NahaTe and ShuriTe forms, and have seen the list for 2 schools that had over 25 kata in their syllabus. I know for the most part that this number is closer to 20.

Learning high kicks and a lot of kata is not bad. In Shorinkan we learn every kick imagineable, and 18 kata, with some sensei teaching 20 +. This includes the kihon or fugyu gata/kata as well as one step sparring and self-defense.

I always wondered why someone would do the Japanese version of Shorin+Goju. Why not train in either of the mother arts and see that the intent is identical, and there is no need to train in a more superficial form of these? I think Shotokan as a karate style is better than most, but lacking in some ways. These are just personal opinions though.

You asked about internal training and the Okinawan arts. In Matsumura ShuriTe, kigong is trained through the use of proper mechanics and posture (structural chi). All of this is accomplished through kata training. Repetitions of the same kata (at least 20 times) trains this. Making sure that your core strength and stability (the tanden) is maximized using sound physical principles (stance length and width, etc.) and proper alignment of certain anatomical structures is crucial in training. This trains the tendons and awakens them. For example using a shuto with your thumb in a checkmark position and the fingers extended to the ceiling, rather than tensing your fingers, tightly adhereing them to one another and locking the thumb against and resting just below the pad of the index finger, increases striking and structural stability. This is based on sound orthopedic principles, but the Chinese called it good "chi". Chi flows better when it is hampered by less antagonistic action. Makes since. Relaxation and tensing at certain moments is the key/ki.

In most karate styles, almost all, kumite or some other free-sparring stuff is used to teach ma-ai, toughness, pain acclimation, angles and such. How many of these styles are using karate vs. kickboxing techs though? Almost none. Certain Okinawan styles teach you how to use gross-motor movements, not flash, athleticism and dash to get the job accomplished. This is how you have to train and be trained in order for karate techs to be useful. Practically every dojo, dojang or training hall spars. Still you have many styles who can't fight with their art. They are just using modified western boxing concepts. So are they learning AND training in karate for self-defense, or are they learning dance routines to supplement their kickboxing in some way?

The style I first trained in, Shorin Ryu Shorinkan, is very similar to Shotokan sans the deep stances. We did have pretty deep stances for a ShuriTe style though. Many of our high ranking students came from a Shotokan background and it was hard for them to get the Goho out. It permeated their forms and kumite. Many commented how Shorin was more natural and utilized circular as well as linear concepts. They claimed that the "softness" evident in Shorinkan (which is not really soft at all) had increased their speed and stamina greatly. Less is "forced" through muscle strength in Shorinkan, but all-in-all it is very similar.

When I began to train in orthodox Shorin, Matsumura Seito, whipping action, pivoting and taisabaki were emphasized. There are absolutely no high kicks whatsoever, none. Stances are of med. width and length, and rooting and efficient stepping vs. bouncing or bounding is taught. The Shotokan BBs that now train with my sensei say there is a marked difference in strategy and execution. Tendon not muscle strength, is stressed, and tendon training is the order of the day. Iron Body is the Goho aspect of the art, and use of chi-ishi, kame, makiwara (for kicks and hand strikes), tetsu bo and bamboo bundle are integral for training. This is done without excess and in a proper non-injurious fashion. This is the external aspect.

We use a modified push hands drill as well as other "sensitivity" drills to enhance the internal. 2 man fighting sets abound. Many are not prearranged and your opponent goes after you. I have seen a few instances where arms and legs were injured because kime wandered. Focus is everything when doing these "drills". Again the aim is not muscular strength, but proper utilization of body mechanics, gravity, sinking power and angles. Body positioning is every thing. All of this is enhanced in repetitive forms practice. Now when I spar my Goju, Kenshinkan, Shotokan and TKD friends, there is less effort and the same result. Not to brag but Shorinkan is known for its strong sparring, and Matsumura makes slap-tag even easier to accomplish.

IMHO 2-man sets and fighting drills as well as bagwork, aerobics and other hojo undo are just as effective as constant, damaging kumite. Kumite is for beginners and tourney types. Free-sparring is really not karate whatsoever, but "hope" fighting.

More on chigong later.....

phantom
10-10-2002, 07:52 AM
Seven Star, I agree with you about sparring full-contact being helpful to a practitioner, but only in moderation, as doing it on a regular basis will lead to permanent injury. However, I have seen karate schools' sparring sessions where, as soon as either you or your opponent land one good hit, you both have to stop, back away from each other, and start sparring again. It is definitely not a good habit to get into stopping after getting one good hit, unless that one hit is enough to stop the fight, which is rarely the case. Budokan, there was an article in Black Belt magazine some time ago where a shotokan black belt, a tae kwon do black belt, a wing chun sifu, and a japanese jiujitsu instructor were all asked what strategy they would use against Royce Gracie if they had to fight against him in the UFC. The Shotokan BB said they he could knock out any opponent, including Royce Gracie, with that particular punch. However, he claimed that a shotokan fighter only has a few seconds in which to throw the punch, and if he fails to connect with it, it cannot be attempted a second time. I also briefly studied washin-ryu karate under an instructor who also taught shotokan. He told me that such a punch does exist. I suppose this could just be a marketing ploy used by some shotokan instructors to attrack people to their schools. Omegapoint, I think one of the reasons people choose shotokan instead of shorin ryu is availability of schools. There are many places where you would have a very hard time being able to find one single shorin ryu anywhere near where you live. However, no matter where you live, you will most likely be able to find a shotokan school somewhere near you. As for tae kwon do being the most popular style, well I.T.F. tae kwon do was very heavily influenced by shotoakan, and many of the forms in both styles are just about exactly the same. I agree that shotokan is one of the better karate styles, but I think that you really need to find an instructor who teaches it as it relates to self defense situations to be able to make it work. However, I also believe that an extremely talented practitioner would be tough no matter what style he or she knows. Many people think that tae kwon do is cr@p, but I have heard of tae kwon do fighters soundly defeated kyokushin and muay thai fighters, and I do not doubt it for one minute. Peace.

omegapoint
10-10-2002, 05:11 PM
You make very valid points. I agree that Shotokan and TKD can be very strong fighting styles. For Shotokan, another teacher that comes to mind is Oshima Sensei, and TKDs "Tiger" Battalion of the 'Nam era were legendary. People that I know and train with were stationed with many of these hardcore Korean guys and will tell you that what they did looked very similar to Shorin Ryu. Then again the karate that Funakoshi brought from Okinawa to the mainland did, too (see "Karate Jutsu"- by Gichin Funakoshi). I also tend to agree with those realists that state Shotokan is the father style of TKD. If you do your homework you'll find quotes from the founder and other Korean martialists that'll verify this.

I'm kinda' glad that most people don't get to train in "old school" (or should I say "older school") karate. Uechi, Isshin and Shorin are hard to come by for a reason. Treasures must be searched for. Not to say that the similar styles that are prevalent like ****o Ryu and Shotokan aren't treasures. Their intent seems to be slightly different though.

When the MMAs craze erupted I was happy to see a MAs format that was at the least hardcore. The problem was that many of the reps. for the striking styles just could not fight. You could tell that they were sport trained specialists, and most strikers were pure kickboxers regardless of style. Old-school karate styles teach all ranges of combat and this is evident in traditional Shuri- and Naha-Te forms. For example the kata "Chinto" has knee checks to uppercuts, throws, cross-collar chokes and knee on stomach techniques. If you don't understand the purer forms (Do vs Jutsu) you could never glean this. Also, if you've never fought for real you may never know that many of these movements were grappling or groundfighting in nature.

Competition and sparring (free-fighting) has become the measuring stick for combat efficacy. Neither are (nowhere) near the entropy of a street altercation. Breaks, rules and overall structure is proof that these contests, NHB or otherwise, are far from real, not to mention padded hands- what a joke! The first 3 UFCs were real free-fighting but there was still a cage to keep you from using full-mobility and a ref to step in when a fighter tapped or submitted. If you are mounted and getting beatdown, choked, or locked on the street you just might die or be seriously injured. People rarely break up fights, and the loser may be beaten half to death before the cops get there.

Shotokan likes to prove its mettle in a competitive format. The AAU and USKA is replete with Shotokan and Goju Ryu stylists. This is fun times and a good game where Gaijin speak in Japanese commands and break up the "full-contact" when a perceived strike connects. In reality you will punch and kick and control and strike and overwhelm your opponent from all sides. There is no "YAME!" or "HAJIME!", just a tackle, grab, haymaker or club to the head from any direction, etc.. There is no "STOP" or "BEGIN", just fight until the dust settles and the real score can be tallied.

Many styles teach the credo "Karate ni sente nashi" or "in Karate there is no first strike". Funakoshi coined this phrase and modern Japanese Budo exponents (which really has nothing to do with the Okinawan philosophy of fighting) like to repeat it over and over, and misinterpret its meaning continually. I think Funakoshi didn't want the Japanese to perceive Karate as the brutal art it can be. He wanted it to be on par with the Samurai traditions of the Japanese. The truth is that many early masters like Motobu and Itosu had accepted challenge matches from Western Boxers and accomplished Judoka, and both times the ferocity and efficacy of its techs was seen first hand, with the non-Okinawan stylist being soundly defeated. This is why Jigoro Kano and other Judoka wanted instruction in this art and even adopted many of the "atemi waza" or striking techs of karate. Some will claim that Atemi was an integral part of JJ, but many Judo techs are 100% old school karate self defense techs.

The reality is that most Okinawan purists teach a philosophy of "Sente" or strike first, after the situation has been evaluated and you know there is no other option. This, and other subtle nuances (including the differences in culture and dialect) were lost when Funakoshi and to some degree even Itosu, Azato and Miyagi "changed" karates intent. They gave the Japanese the commercial, school-boy versions and from this 98% of the karate seen today was developed. Some folks may think this is all hogwash but that is fine with the few purists out there. Karate was not meant to be learned by any fool. I had to "interview" with my current Shinshii before he would teach me. All of this being said, there are quite a few Okinawan karateka who cannot fight. The individual does make a difference, too.

Still Shotokan is a good karate-do style.

SevenStar
10-11-2002, 11:51 AM
yeah, I pretty much agreed with what you said. If you've ever noticed, I'm always preaching that IMO, you shouldn't go full contact any more than onceor twice a month.

"However, he claimed that a shotokan fighter only has a few seconds in which to throw the punch, and if he fails to connect with it, it cannot be attempted a second time."

That sounds like some finishing move, be all end all anime type attack....that just strikes me as weird.

rogue
10-12-2002, 09:32 PM
Don't know much about shotokan but I was amazed at how high Funokosi stances were in Karate-Jutsu. I was also surprised at the higher more natural width stances found in General Chois Encyclopedia. Kind of struck me that Choi, a shotokan man, changed the stances of his art back to the mor practical stances.

old jong
10-13-2002, 07:09 AM
I have the pleasure to see a lot of Shotokan every weeks. There is a class just before my Wing Chun class at the center where I teach. I enjoy good friendship with the 6th degree BB instructor and we always talk about our martial arts. The guy teach old style traditionnal Shotokan and it is very impressive. No kick boxing or flashy high kicks there!...Only pure karate moves,real fighting applications and hard and passionnate training.They also practice intensively on the basic hean and tekki kata.The teacher is a firm believer that true Karate is found in the kata ,not in kick boxing moves.He always explain direct applications from the moves found in the kata. It is not a popular dojo because of this approach but, you get what real Karate is all about there.No musical kata there!

;)

Budokan
10-15-2002, 08:41 AM
That's true, Funakoshi's stances were higher than the deeper ones of today. I'm not sure why, although I've heard it's because Funakoshi was a pretty small man to begin with and if he lowered himself very much at all his face would be in line with the other guy's nut sack. Too, higher stances were more "traditional" back then. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same. Sometimes.

rogue
10-15-2002, 11:28 AM
I train the wide deep stances in kata during warm up, but then switch to the higher more natural stances. I trained low stances and made them work but the return just wasn't there. I think Funakoshi had a high stance simply because that's how he trained. Don't forget he was an Okinawan karateka and they're karate was still practical. I think the Japanese tried to pretty up the some of the karate they learned to make it more Japanese.

omegapoint
10-15-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Budokan
That's true, Funakoshi's stances were higher than the deeper ones of today. I'm not sure why, although I've heard it's because Funakoshi was a pretty small man to begin with and if he lowered himself very much at all his face would be in line with the other guy's nut sack. Too, higher stances were more "traditional" back then. I guess the more things change the more they stay the same. Sometimes.

Compared to other Okinawans he was probably about average height. The modified, low stances he adopted into Shotokan would place him at the perfect height to give a 6 ft. tall dude a good, straight groin shot or two! One punch, 2 ruptures, hahaha!

Yeah in fighting, somewhere in between is probably best. Too upright is not so good either. Bending the knees is always a good idea when fighting.

BTW, IMO, natural things usually make gradual changes, usually for better adaptation to the current environment. Man-made things can change rapidly for no reason at all. Oft-times to effect a selfish desire or to force an idea on the placid and/or unknowing. In my estimation few real things change at all. Perpectives just change when the origin is further from the"now", whatever that is.

omegapoint
10-15-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by rogue
I think Funakoshi had a high stance simply because that's how he trained. Don't forget he was an Okinawan karateka and they're karate was still practical. I think the Japanese tried to pretty up the some of the karate they learned to make it more Japanese.

Again, Rogue you are on-point! The excuse made for deep stance training that many people use is that it conditions your legs. we have weights and other devices for that now. No more excuses unless you can't get access to a gym or weights. Trust me if you train like this it will become habit and that's the way you'll stand in a fight. Shorin, as compared to Goju, is about speed, positionng and mobility. All of these factors are hampered by unnatural stances.

BTW, one of the main fighting stances used in Orthodox Shorin is very similar to the one used by BJJ guys. Exactly the same in fact...

rogue
10-15-2002, 07:33 PM
Omegapoint,
Right now I'm using the more natural stances in my ITF TKD hyungs without the sine wave/bounce action that Choi put in. Makes the techniques much smoother and faster. Also I'm not 5 foot tall. If I went deep and wide in proportion to my size it'd take me forever to move from point A to point B compared with someone smaller. I've noticed that Gen. Choi made some interesting changes to his Shotokan base when developing his brand of TKD as a karate killer, and two were the higher stances and lighter footwork.

You're right about the weights and modern training. I've seen, and experienced some traditional leg excercises that are just awful on the knees and hips. And I find I get faster results from modern training than the traditional leg work.

What stance is that OP? The t-stance or L-stance with hands up around chest level?

omegapoint
10-16-2002, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by rogue
Omegapoint,

What stance is that OP? The t-stance or L-stance with hands up around chest level?

You got it bro. Almost identical to an old-school boxing stance.

Yeah, I have met and trained with numerous Shotokan, TKD, TSD and other striking stylists. I found that there were a lot of TKD guys overseas who were awesome competitors and fighters. The same for the Shotokan stylists that I have trained with. I think that many good karateka and Korean strikers are getting back to basics and fundamentals, althought there is no lack of tournament-lovers and Olympian wannabes.

I also believe that many serious martial artists regardlesss of ryu or style, will come to the same conclusions about fighting in a controlled/semi-controlled environment vs. fighting on the street. Caique, a BJJ 5th deg. BB under Rickson, a former teacher and current friend of mine, once remarked to me that he would NEVER try an armbar in a fight. He would opt for strikes, most likely elbows and such, to finish the job. He is a champion BJJ guy as well as former Rio street fighter. He, too, is always on-point!

In the end I guess it doesn't matter if you do Savate,Shotokan, S h ito Ryu, Lotus Kung Fu or MMAs. If you are evaluating techs honestly and effectively then efficacy in the real world will reveal itself to you if need be. I guess one of the reasons that certain arts are so prevalent is due to the fact that some offer more than others. Competition is the fuel for innovation worldwide and self-preservation methods can be reached from this venue, too. The overall practicality of something is a singular realization in the end.

DragonzRage
10-21-2002, 11:56 AM
I don't know extremely much regarding karate, but from what I've seen Shotokan is a pretty popular traditional style. My guess as to why this is would be the following reasons:
1) Funakoshi
2) because of association w/ above, it is very widespread.
3) To my understanding the Shotokan method was designed so that it could be easily taught to a mass number of students at once. That means a greater output of proficient students.
4) techniques and methods seem pretty standardized, and lineage is pretty well established. That means less confusion about what Shotokan is and more cohesiveness of the Shotokan community at large.

As a practical fighting method, there are a lot of things about the style that don't appeal to me, but it definitely has its strengths. Another good thing I see about it is that whereas a lot of the more watered down commercialized karate nowadays has pretty half-a$$ed training, the Shotokan guys seem to have a pretty hard-nosed attitude about their training and their work ethic is pretty strong. But on the downside, I have seen a couple pretty tough Shotokan guys who were quick and strong, but in general I don't think the fighting standard is very high.

Hardwork108
07-06-2010, 03:59 PM
This is Shotokan's Yahara.

Looks like a badass to me.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12UkQgYI0AQ&feature=related

Hebrew Hammer
07-06-2010, 06:08 PM
Good find man....some of those Karate Senseis are badass...always love the ones where the old guy is punching a boulder to toughen up his hands.