Would you consider this a form?

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY

discuss.

points?

why do this?

[pateticorecords]

I would;)

We did some much of this in training in the blistering heat (in Texas) in full uniform it wasn't even funny.:)

[MightyB]

I'd say it's good for discipline, coordination, and pride - but I wouldn't say it's a "form".

A "form" has to have elements that mimic combat.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That sort of marching is just of ceremonial value with not much practical in it. Therefore, it is more like dance.

Certain aspects of marching, without all the razzle dazzle, could be made into a form as they have combat application, especially when we talk about pre WWI combat.

[pateticorecords]

Drill is marching. In ancient history, the most powerful, efficient and developed empires developed ways of moving organized units of troops from one place to another on the battlefield, without individuals getting mixed up with other units. Otherwise, as masses of people maneuvered amongst each other individuals would get lost and end up having to attach themselves to any old unit. A system of flags was developed so people could identify their own units (and side) on the field and make their way to their correct flag bearer if they got separated. But sticking to "formed up" squads was better, forming a box of men who moved as a single body. Overall it meant command systems were effective - men stayed together and could be commanded as units. Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, testifies to the superiority of Roman discipline, and part of that discipline was an ordered method of moving formed up squads from one place to another. This discipline facilitates effective realization of tactical man-management, and the result is a superior fighting army.

During what historians have reluctantly come to call “The Military Revolution” European armies between 1550 and 1720 became generally state-controlled, financed and permanent. “There was a resultant loss of individuality, with the need for better organization, good training - especially in drill - and strict discipline”. Training became an institution.

Since then, drill has become increasingly important as part of training, discipline and military parades. Goose Stepping was a form of extreme marching held by German, Prussian, and Russian heads of military to be an ultimate display of the unbreakable will and discipline of its soldiers. Most modern marching is not as extreme as the rigid goose step. Anything that resembles it is now unpopular because it has become associated with fascism. Nevertheless it is still used by some countries as a powerful display of military discipline.

Military Drill in the Army is formalized with utmost precision in the fearsomely bulky Drill Book. In the preamble to the Drill Book it is "confidently asserted that the foundation of discipline in battle is based on drill" and that this has been proven again and again. According to William Barlow, Robert Graves said there are "three types of troops: those with guts who could not drill; those good at drill but with no guts and those who had guts and could drill well.

[rett]

This is a really super interesting question I think. If the Marines are doing it it's martial, full stop. They define martial.

Best way to get an answer is to ask a Marine instructor, what does this teach?

But until then we could try guessing some of the the things.

One guess, the posture they stand in compresses their Qi high into the body making them agressive. The mechanical nature of their movements also expresses a certain aggressive posture. Slaps, stamps.

I'd also guess physically handling your weapon like they do must be a basic combat skill training. You can't afford to drop that or fumble in a hectic combat situation. You need to know what way your muzzle is pointing, not to mention a bayonett at all times and be able to move it around without hurting your friends. Of course they won't stand up like that doing these particular stylized moves in battle, but if you can do these moves you can probably swing the rifle around and not drop it and not accidently discharge it at a friend from all kinds of unpredictable real positions under stress.

Another guess, this is a multi-man drill so they are drilling precision teamwork and synchronization. It must be good psychological drilling for the more free form teamwork in their job. Instill the idea that they're a cog in the machine.

Another guess, I bet those drills are old traditions and create a sense of unity with the Marines of the past and until the present.

Just some ideas to get started.

[pateticorecords]

Drill and Physical Training

Not everyone has the control over their bodies that athletes have. Strain, stress, laziness, inability, mental weakness and dis-familiarity prevent most people from having maximum control of their own bodies. When situations become stressful, cold or uncomfortable then people who have been trained to rigidly form their bodies around their will will undoubtedly perform better than those people whose only mind-body training has been computer games and casual sport.

A recruit will spent an apparent eternity stood motionless at attention, sometimes in seemingly unbearable cold and warmth. But with each such session, the cold becomes a little more bearable, the motionlessness becomes more familiar and more elegant and the recruit's body learns a little better how to conform completely to the wishes of its operator.

With drill comes increased control over your own body.

In a tactical situation, on sentry, you must remain completely quiet and motionless in order to minimize the chances of being seen or heard. A recruit who has mastered hundreds of hours of drill, in the cold and in uncomfortable positions, will also be a master of his own body in such tactical situations.

When a recruit moves on to skill at arms training the casual motionless and calmness, despite discomfort, is an essential ability of a good shot. If a recruit is not used to ignoring the minor discomforts of a held position, their minds will be distracted and their firing will be less accurate.

Once drill is internalized and your body is accustomed to the discipline, it becomes more like a relaxing meditation than hard work, and your mind can wonder. Retrospectively, it feels to some like they no longer find it hard... it is hard, but, they have become accustomed to the hardness.

“Nearly everyone who came into the Depot from civilian life brought with him the tortuous notion that, to drill smartly, one had to restrict and frustrate the natural action of the body. [Through drill] men came to inhabit and use their bodies less self-consciously, with an economy of movement.”

William Barlow (2005)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It teaches unit cohesivness and the value of repetitive drilling.

[SPJ]

2 things

1. men move as one unit, yes, this needs team work or every one works together as a team, no too fast, no too slow, but the same tempo every one and keep the right distance in between.

this is how army or marine is like. you need a group of people to fight a war, not just one person, etc etc.

2 man and his rifle/gun, if you may move your gun at will, the gun has become part of you.

the gun never leaves you, you never leaves your gun.

if the gun is here, you are here, if the gun is gone, you are gone/dead, too.

etc etc

these 2 things are very and very important for a group of people to fight a war --

:cool:

[MightyB]

It's tough to find examples of "forms" from the US Military because most drills are two person and involve a fair amount of contact - especially in the modern era. Here's an interesting WWII H2H video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga4zLsMmkE0)

[Taixuquan99]

It's obviously kempo.

[pateticorecords]

Here's an interesting WWII H2H video.
Reply With Quote


awesome, thanks for sharing:)

[pateticorecords]

Military Combatives MMA Mixed Martial Arts - Close Combat - Part 1 - Recon - The Pentagon Channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6yJ_-urZxY

[lkfmdc]

I am not 100% sure, but I want to say it was Patton, but he was one of the US general who was 125% opposed to such things, saying it had nothing to do with actual combat and was a waste of time

[rett]

I am not 100% sure, but I want to say it was Patton, but he was one of the US general who was 125% opposed to such things, saying it had nothing to do with actual combat and was a waste of time

Patton was a sabre master, I'm pretty sure. He even wrote field manuals on it, and on horseback swordfighting. So he wasn't against sword drills. Though he may have dropped that stuff by the time WWII rolled around. Just off the top of my head ymmv.

[LFJ]

No.

The Chinese PLA does drill, but they also have a military fighting form. They are two obviously separate trainings.

This is a military fighting form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygx6Kxuwh74


why do this?

The US Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual (http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%20P5060.20%20W%20CH%201_3.pdf) states:


"One of the cornerstones of Marine Corps customs, courtesies and
traditions is our execution of close order drill and ceremonies.
These traditions are perpetuated from one generation to the next
through constant use and practice. The “esprit de corps” of every
Marine has been brought about by their ever-present feeling of pride,
not only in their unit, but also in themselves. The preservation of
traditional discipline, our customs and courtesies, and the heritage
of our Corps is our duty. It is our further duty to see that the
same high standard of discipline and esprit de corps is not only
preserved, but also further strengthened. These intangibles must be
passed on to the future Marines who will take their place among the
ranks our Corps.

The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to
obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order
drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps.
Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing
confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders."

[David Jamieson]

The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to
obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order
drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps.
Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing
confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders."

So, what are forms?

We have people who say they do not develop any usable fighting skills, there are others who disagree.

We have others who say that form augments and develops overall motorskills and therefore assists fully in fighter development.

Should we pick and choose the value of traditions based on our individual likes and dislikes?

[LFJ]

The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to
obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order
drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps.
Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing
confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders." So, what are forms?

Are you saying forms teach by exercise discipline, team spirit, and to obey orders?? Or forms develop confidence in troop leading abilities?? :confused:


Should we pick and choose the value of traditions based on our individual likes and dislikes?

Maybe.

That wouldn't be traditional, but you're free to pick and choose what you want to incorporate in your personal training if you find another way works better for you on an individual basis, unless you've been recruited by a military organization, or joined a strictly traditional martial arts school where you are required to follow the curriculum, training methodology and routine.

[David Jamieson]

Are you saying forms teach by exercise discipline, team spirit, and to obey orders?? Or forms develop confidence in troop leading abilities?? :confused:

I believe they teach a few things. Discipline, body balance, spatial awareness. the benefits are also of a few varieties. Master the self before trying to master others, so, troop leading? Yeah, that would be like being the teacher of the discipline in the case of martial arts school context and outside of government funded militaries.




Maybe.

That wouldn't be traditional, but you're free to pick and choose what you want to incorporate in your personal training if you find another way works better for you on an individual basis, unless you've been recruited by a military organization, or joined a strictly traditional martial arts school where you are required to follow the curriculum, training methodology and routine.

If you have a teacher and are in a club, then you go by what's taught there. If the mnemonic devices used are forms, so be it. :)

[LFJ]

If you speak of forms in the sense of having direct combat applications and movements that mimic combat, then I would say no, military drills are not that (even though historically it was a group fighting tactic, not individual)- not like the PLA "taolu" which is a single person fighting form. This is what "forms" are to me. There is an obvious difference between that and drill.

But I also think that just as forms develop skills applicable to fighting, military drills do as well. Mainly that is the sharp, snappy, and spirited movements that can be applied to combat. Although that is not a "technique", it is a way to develop immediate response with speed and intensity.

If your training is laid back, you may tend to lack aggressiveness in fighting. Look at the marines. They were nicknamed the "devil dogs" for a reason. I think their training drill definitely had something to do with that!