Black Taoist Update

[Ray Pina]

Good training!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8mUu1c_OM

[sanjuro_ronin]

Indeed, excellent work.

[Ray Pina]

Timing and difference pretty good. I would work on some drills to keep the head up. A good one we use is to take an athletic posture, head held up straight.... let a partner one hand grab around the head and pull from side to side in circles, pull back, push forward


Other maintains straight back/head while moving with shuffle, feet remaining apart. Not crossing.

You feel that one the next day after your first time.

[David Jamieson]

yep. not bad.

not sure why on concrete.

a safer surface would have opened it up a little more with the usage of techs, inside engagement etc.

still, better than a lot of examples in a similar light.

[TenTigers]

nice to see TCMAists utilizing slipping, bobbing and weaving.
(it's also in our dragon section in Hung Kuen:-)

[HumbleWCGuy]

yep. not bad.

not sure why on concrete.

a safer surface would have opened it up a little more with the usage of techs, inside engagement etc.

still, better than a lot of examples in a similar light.

I have done that before. It was just to get a sense for a fight that actually happened in a real setting. We wore football helmets though to protect from a bad fall.

[hskwarrior]

why not on concrete? people don't fight on concrete? i know usually its for the ring, but people fight and go to the ground in the streets all the time. why not train on the surface you may have to get down on?

[Brule]

why not then just throw down broken glass and sticks to make it....yah know....more realz?

[TenTigers]

why not then just throw down broken glass and sticks to make it....yah know....more realz?
no need. It's NYC, man.

[hskwarrior]

why not then just throw down broken glass and sticks to make it....yah know....more realz?

So if you were attacked you would tell the guy or guys "sorry, we can't do this here, there's too much rocks, broken glass and sticks on the floor, oh those, they're just syringe's, don't bother with those". LOL :p

[David Jamieson]

why not on concrete? people don't fight on concrete? i know usually its for the ring, but people fight and go to the ground in the streets all the time. why not train on the surface you may have to get down on?

I understand what your saying. But, when on concrete, one is far more cautious and may not execute attacks or defenses that would actually best suit the situation because they are with a training partner and friend and on a surface that can cause a serious injury even in training.

Training is never replicating reality. It can get close, but it never gets there.

Even with intention, that is never the same in a for real situation as it is in a training situation. Hence the reasons why some guys train like beasts and when they get into a mix up, they're done and surprisingly quickly too. It's happened before plenty of times and I think any of us who has been into it as long as you for instance Frank, would have seen plenty of examples of just that by now. :)

[hskwarrior]

I understand what your saying. But, when on concrete, one is far more cautious and may not execute attacks or defenses that would actually best suit the situation because they are with a training partner and friend and on a surface that can cause a serious injury even in training.

If you're padded up like these guys then the vital parts of your body are protected IMHO. I find while training being cautious to be a good thing cause without a training partner what will you be training? nothing at all wrong with being cautious. if you were training with real live blades would you not be cautious in class?


Even with intention, that is never the same in a for real situation as it is in a training situation. Hence the reasons why some guys train like beasts and when they get into a mix up, they're done and surprisingly quickly too. It's happened before plenty of times and I think any of us who has been into it as long as you for instance Frank, would have seen plenty of examples of just that by now.

Imo, it depends who you're training with. someone people like to go hard, padded floors or cement. see, the thing about training on cement is that you must respect it because one simple mistake while falling can end your life in a confrontation. so you won't take any chances. bleed that over to padded floors, you'd have a different perspective about falling.

either way, as long as they are realistically training, its all for good of the situation. :)

[Brule]

If you're padded up like these guys then the vital parts of your body are protected IMHO. I find while training being cautious to be a good thing cause without a training partner what will you be training? nothing at all wrong with being cautious. if you were training with real live blades would you not be cautious in class?



Imo, it depends who you're training with. someone people like to go hard, padded floors or cement. see, the thing about training on cement is that you must respect it because one simple mistake while falling can end your life in a confrontation. so you won't take any chances. bleed that over to padded floors, you'd have a different perspective about falling.

either way, as long as they are realistically training, its all for good of the situation. :)

and this is why they are not going balls out. so can injuring yourself quite serisouly training on cement.

[hskwarrior]

and this is why they are not going balls out. so can injuring yourself quite serisouly training on cement.

you can injure yourself on a mat....on the grass..... just sayin

[Brule]

the percentages are reduced on those compared to cement wouldn't you say?

[David Jamieson]

I think you're right.
I think I don't view that as training that can be sustained and therefore it's not going to be something that I will be doing much of.

You have to recycle your training partners! When you meet and fight the enemy for real, THEN you can slam him into the curb if need be.

Otherwise, it's training. Footwork would be understood through this though, I will give it that for sure as well.

[hskwarrior]

the percentages are reduced on those compared to cement wouldn't you say?

oh of course. i just happen to like training on cement. part of this is because some of my students don't want to fight in the ring, but prefer to fight in the streets if they have to. Training for that environment is just as important as training on matts IMHO. However I am training my guys now to fight in some local Muay Thai matches out here in the SF area.


Otherwise, it's training. Footwork would be understood through this though, I will give it that for sure as well.

Street fighters are extremely aware of being body slammed to the cement which can end it right there. so they work their footwork, center of gravity, and even know how to sprawl and escapes from clinches just from experience and fear from fighting without ever being trained.

[faxiapreta]

why not on concrete? people don't fight on concrete? i know usually its for the ring, but people fight and go to the ground in the streets all the time. why not train on the surface you may have to get down on?

Because training in methods that let you go longer and full force without getting injured is superior to training in methods in which you can't go long at full force before getting injured. Training on concrete does not allow for extended periods of full contact training without injuries.

[hskwarrior]

Because training in methods that let you go longer and full force without getting injured is superior to training in methods in which you can't go long at full force before getting injured. Training on concrete does not allow for extended periods of full contact training without injuries.

i do agree with that. but there is experience to be gained from training on the cement as well.

[faxiapreta]

i do agree with that. but there is experience to be gained from training on the cement as well.

This is true, which is why it would be a good idea to train in this environment occasionally.

[Brule]

I will have to disagree that there is experience to be gained by training on cement. IMO it is counterproductive. Everyone knows that cement is harder than matts, so they can make the correlation that if you get tossed on cement, your ass is getting broke. If you're constantly training on cement, you are not going to throw properly as if you would on the mat. Any environment that does not allow you to properly execute your technique to it's fullest, would provide you with the most benefit from that technique.

[hskwarrior]

I will have to disagree that there is experience to be gained by training on cement. IMO it is counterproductive. Everyone knows that cement is harder than matts, so they can make the correlation that if you get tossed on cement, your ass is getting broke. If you're constantly training on cement, you are not going to throw properly as if you would on the mat. Any environment that does not allow you to properly execute your technique to it's fullest, would provide you with the most benefit from that technique.

Counter productive to what? ring fighting?

I have to disagree with you on all this. But if all you're talking about is throws, ok. the cement isn't the best surface to train throws. take down, sweeps, stand up, and ground fighting is what i'm talking about here. Also, IMHO training against throws on the cement is where you benefit because you don't want to be thrown and what's the wrong surface to be down onto? the cement. so if you train how NOT to be thrown on this surface you'll find A benefit.

for example, someone says "hey, you're good at stopping throws, who'd you get so good?" and the other guy responds "by training on the cement. i was doing my best NOT to get thrown onto it".....

[MasterKiller]

Shows a lack of understanding, still, of the ground. Not pulling guard to finish the guillotine,especially an arm-in guillotine, and then the guy on top not using a Von Flue choke when the guy on bottom wouldn't let go, show how basic their ground fighting is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Von Flue Choke?

[hskwarrior]

sanjuro, i thought you left this forum? LMAO

[MasterKiller]

Von Flue Choke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPQmH9mFSU0

[Brule]

Von Flue Choke?

I would never have thought that after watching season 2 of TUF that Jason Von Flue would have a choke named after him.

[Ray Pina]

You get good at anything by doing it a lot. And doing it the same way, the right way, over and over and over again.

When you know how to throw and, more importantly, how to take a throw, then you could train on cement but why would you? You can walk around on concrete barefoot all day everyday, but we use shoes with comfortable soles. It makes the experience more enjoyable and thus easier to replicate/continue/look forward to.

(note: I prefer no shoes and hate throwing class because our mats suck and I don't fall right enough)

Same goes for headgear and gloves. Without those, 9 out of 10 times most people are holding their punching. Even with gloves and headgear you're usually not swinging for the fence. You're swinging to land but focusing more on smooth and loose. Better to allow landing with gear than holding back without.

[Brule]

Counter productive to what? ring fighting?

I have to disagree with you on all this. But if all you're talking about is throws, ok. the cement isn't the best surface to train throws. take down, sweeps, stand up, and ground fighting is what i'm talking about here. Also, IMHO training against throws on the cement is where you benefit because you don't want to be thrown and what's the wrong surface to be down onto? the cement. so if you train how NOT to be thrown on this surface you'll find A benefit.

for example, someone says "hey, you're good at stopping throws, who'd you get so good?" and the other guy responds "by training on the cement. i was doing my best NOT to get thrown onto it".....

I can see where you're coming from, but i remember when we trained on mats, we didn't just give into the sweep, throw, etc...we would certainly try our best not to be takin down.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPQmH9mFSU0

Seriously?
They named "yoko gyakyu hajime" after him ??
Well, BJJ payers do love to do that so I guess it's ok...

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro, i thought you left this forum? LMAO

Vacation mofu :)

[hskwarrior]

I can see where you're coming from, but i remember when we trained on mats, we didn't just give into the sweep, throw, etc...we would certainly try our best not to be takin down.

I totally agree with you. but sometimes on a mat it gets really slippery right? unless there are banana peels all over the street it won't be that slippery which will give you added effectiveness because of the traction between cement and your shoes.

But would you agree there is more fear of being slammed into the cement than a padded floor?

[hskwarrior]

Vacation mofu

ahhhh kinda pulled a bawang there huh?

[Frost]

Shows a lack of understanding, still, of the ground. Not pulling guard to finish the guillotine,especially an arm-in guillotine, and then the guy on top not using a Von Flue choke when the guy on bottom wouldn't let go, show how basic their ground fighting is.

yep, also no real clinch work, and not to many combinationsw, still nice to see some real sparring from the guy

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone gonna mention how none of that looked like bagua or anything else that BT does in his other clips?
:D

[hskwarrior]

i thought one of them knew some CLF but guess i was wrong.

[Frost]

Anyone gonna mention how none of that looked like bagua or anything else that BT does in his other clips?
:D

i saw some nifty guard posing and hand changing at one point before contact happened did that count?:D

i actually though CLF and southern dragon at one point from one of them

[taai gihk yahn]

Riddle me this!

Is this the capable martial artist that beat the crap of outta the Lama...opps...sorry....San Shou guy? What's his face? Ummmm, he used to write bland articles in the 90s....hmmm.....and then when the wind changed he became a Stephen Hayes "born again" MMA coach? Jeebus! What's his name? Ya know, he spouts out his lineage whenever he feels challenged....**** it! Can't remember his name!!! Any help here?

Any way....yeah...good vid.

what r u talking about? if you mean Dave Ross and Novell, they never fought; Dave had a bout with Ben Hill behind closed doors (meaning unless you were there, how would you know for certain what happened?);

oh, wait - you were trying to be clever, and probably didn't actually want a straight answer; sorry about that :o

[Lebaufist]

Sorry, "behind closed doors" will always sound like bull****.

[Lebaufist]

Anyone gonna mention how none of that looked like bagua or anything else that BT does in his other clips?
:D


It just seemed too "loose" to me. There was very little crispness to the technique. I wouldn't say it was terrible.

[Lebaufist]

and on a surface that can cause a serious injury even in training......



.....To both people. Training specifically on safe surfaces will give the practitioner the false sense of protection from the floor. Many smears , slips and throws will peel your skin off if you aren't aware of the surface. Slams on the ground where you sacrifice are prime examples.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry, "behind closed doors" will always sound like bull****.

well, apparently Shi-tzu finds my statement sig worthy, lol!

[Ray Pina]

It's not crisp, but they're training. Learning. I did see some Bong quen like downward shots. You don't see that all the time.

The good news is they're training in a way that Novell probably didn't get an opportunity too. He's wise for providing that for his students.

As for training on pads/false sense of security.... You can get hurt fighting in any number of ways. Hurt is different than injured.

Training on a soft surface allows you to enter, throw fully ... as you would in an encounter. As you do when free playing on safe mats in the gym.

If you drop someone on their head/shoulder and scrape your knee it's something you won't even notice until your shampoo stings it later showering.

Use your brain! If your student trips or gets taken down and breaks his head on a bench.... sorry doesn't fix it. All that's required is quicker stoppage.

But there's no substitute to a well padded gym. I'm training on ****ty pads now and I feel the difference... I hate throwing class. I hate getting thrown 100 times on a ****ty mat. It sucks on a good mat too, just not as bad. It's never fun to be taken off your feet and flipped through the air.

[hskwarrior]

But there's no substitute to a well padded gym. I'm training on ****ty pads now and I feel the difference... I hate throwing class. I hate getting thrown 100 times on a ****ty mat. It sucks on a good mat too, just not as bad. It's never fun to be taken off your feet and flipped through the air.

Tell us, how do you really feel about being thrown on sh1tty mats? LOL :p

[David Jamieson]

.....To both people. Training specifically on safe surfaces will give the practitioner the false sense of protection from the floor. Many smears , slips and throws will peel your skin off if you aren't aware of the surface. Slams on the ground where you sacrifice are prime examples.

Training is training. It's not a contest and it's not an effort to injure your training partner.

If training on concrete, footwork and stability would be of interest to understand. I can freely extrapolate that my skull can be cracked open wit a simple trip up.

I also know that would be a lot less likely on even a wooden floor.

Training smart doesn't include inducement of frequent injury and it includes a safe training environment.

That last part of you that is intention needs to be reveal fully at the point of real conflict and is tempered for the purpose of congruity and continuity in a training environment.

[TenTigers]

guys, let it go. They were training outdoors, the grappling was controlled and relatively cooperative, as they both understood the safety concerns, and played it like gentlemen/Hing-Dai. They were sparring, not brawling, not competing.

[hskwarrior]

guys, let it go. They were training outdoors, the grappling was controlled and relatively cooperative, as they both understood the safety concerns, and played it like gentlemen/Hing-Dai. They were sparring, not brawling, not competing.

agreed. .......

[Lebaufist]

Training is training. It's not a contest and it's not an effort to injure your training partner.

If training on concrete, footwork and stability would be of interest to understand. I can freely extrapolate that my skull can be cracked open wit a simple trip up.



I'm not advocating the polar separation that seems to go on here about everything. Working on a mat is obviously the best day to day choice.

However....

My point was that people take liberties with their technique choices on a mat that they shouldn't on the street.

[lkfmdc]

My point was that people take liberties with their technique choices on a mat that they shouldn't on the street.

and the REVERSE is also true

in the video, one guy goes for a single, the other guy sinks in underhooks to set up his head lock. One of the solutions to this would be to transition to a high crotch and SLAM the guy. Most likely, being they are class mates (and not psychos), they aren't going to do that on concrete. So (1) the attacker is denied the opportunity to try that follow up and (2) the defender is denied the opportunity to respond / defend against that follow up

It was a pretty good clip, but if you ask my professional opinion, they are better served working on mats

[Eric Olson]

Because training in methods that let you go longer and full force without getting injured is superior to training in methods in which you can't go long at full force before getting injured. Training on concrete does not allow for extended periods of full contact training without injuries.

Not if your training environment doesn't replicate reality. Would be nice if we lived in a padded world :rolleyes:

EO

[monkey mind]

guys, let it go. They were training outdoors, the grappling was controlled and relatively cooperative, as they both understood the safety concerns, and played it like gentlemen/Hing-Dai. They were sparring, not brawling, not competing.

Good point with regard to the grappling. But how about the strikes (i.e. the vast majority of what was on the clip)? This was a sparring situation, with gloves, headgear & who knows what pads under all the clothes. So why were the strikes so limited in variety & loose in technique? I mean, at least 90% of what I saw were swinging attempts at head strikes. Only 1 guy used his legs & he only tried some weak roundhouse kicks, always to the body & always with the right leg. If I'm in a fight or serious competition, I'm going to stick to the few techniques I'm most comfortable with (that's where I'm at in my training). But when I spar like this, I try to use a wide variety of techniques, especially those I'm less comfortable with. And mixing up the targeting is key. I give the guys in the clip credit for doing this kind of training. I'd just like to see more, I don't know, sophistication(?) in their approach. Of course, I don't know anything about the individuals involved & their experience.

[Ray Pina]

Not if your training environment doesn't replicate reality. Would be nice if we lived in a padded world :rolleyes:

EO
Do you advocate the use of real knives/blades for weapons training?

[TenTigers]

Do you advocate the use of real knives/blades for weapons training?
when I learned FMA, we occasionally used live blades....they were dull, but sharp enough to cut.
-jus sayin'...

[lkfmdc]

when I learned FMA, we occasionally used live blades....they were dull, but sharp enough to cut.
-jus sayin'...

you never did FMA, you just had to commute through hepstead :D