Mouth Boxing: the FAQs

[Dale Dugas]

Mouth Boxing has become rampant in this day and age of the internet.

Many people feel comfy and safe hiding behind the net, but should they be allowed to snipe and curse and insult people who are known, post up where they teach, etc?

I for one call anyone who starts trouble yet refuses to step up as an adult, a mouth boxer. They are cowards. If they really were interested in learning and sharing they would have no issues with telling people who and where they are.

I am not a mouth boxer, and always post up where people can find me for friendship or to learn how to be one with the floor or whatever you desire from the encounter.

Mouth Boxing can also get you into some serious trouble, like the kid who was mouthing off and then got chocked out. You talk crap, you need to understand the ramifications of said crap talking.

What say you fellow forum members?

net ghosts should be treated with the utmost contempt for being cowards.

[sanjuro_ronin]

History has shown us that, at times, giving out your personal information on the net is NOT a good thing.
Of course that tends to apply for people that go looking for trouble.
I don't see why anyone that cares enough to post of a MA forum, isn't open and honest enough to say who they are or at least where they train or even IF they train.
I never made any sense to me and probably never will.

[David Jamieson]

History has shown us that, at times, giving out your personal information on the net is NOT a good thing.
Of course that tends to apply for people that go looking for trouble.
I don't see why anyone that cares enough to post of a MA forum, isn't open and honest enough to say who they are or at least where they train or even IF they train.
I never made any sense to me and probably never will.

Stating your name, is not really an issue and being your honest and real self on the internet isn't that different for me than functioning in real life.

I'm me. I'm me here, I'm me elsewhere and I don't have any issues at all with revealing who I am or where I'm from etc.

I agree with Dale and I agree with you that the ones who are generally the problem are just looking for trouble.

anonymity will be a thing of the past soon enough with the internet, so people better get used to using their social communication abilities as if it was really them talking and not some shielded infantile persona that is not much better than a monkey flinging poop. :)

I have little if any respect for those people who will not step up. they will be dealt with in the more "heavy handed" way as someone recently pointed out. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

WORDS ARE JUST WIND people talk and that is about it

[David Jamieson]

WORDS ARE JUST WIND people talk and that is about it

Have you read the constitution?

more than wind man...way more than wind.

Also, my library! Volumes and volumes of valuable meaning!

Words are so much more than what you have attributed them with.

Words can be as sharp as any sword, as murderous as any gunshot, as deceitful as any thief.

don't kid yourself, words when wielded by the skilled are powerful indeed.

[Dale Dugas]

Many of us here and on other forums have no issue with telling people who we are.

I know who Sanjuro Ronin is in real life.

I know Dave Ross, Chris Jurak, etc and others who have become not only members here but people who I have actually met in real life or have business with in reality.

[Dale Dugas]

WORDS ARE JUST WIND people talk and that is about it

I do not agree with you at all.

People who are just talking are insulting and sniping and slandering and libeling you without the person being attacked what should be accorded to them by law, which is to know who the heck is attacking you.

People in real life would NEVER say some of the drek they have said to me or about my teachers to my face, as not only are they cowards, but I would show them the error of their ways right then and there, and we would see how many people could deal with that.

If you would not say it to someone in reality, why the hell would people think it is kosher to do so on the net?

[Dragonzbane76]

Words are what u make of them. Getting wrapped up in the verse of a ghost is not what I would call an attack. It's a site on the net not the end all of creation.

If u guys are trying to police the net good luck

[Brule]

some people need to get a grip for crying out loud.

[EarthDragon]

oh yeah Dale? well my dad can beat up your dad anyday. LOl sorry man couldnt resist my boxing mouth:)

[SPJ]

yes we may

mouth

post

twit

all day long

till we drop

or running out of steam or mouth water.

way yah

:)

[David Jamieson]

Words are what u make of them. Getting wrapped up in the verse of a ghost is not what I would call an attack. It's a site on the net not the end all of creation.

If u guys are trying to police the net good luck

Well, it's one community forum on the internet. It's not like trying to police the net, it's recognizing that there is a human being sitting behind a keyboard communicating and responding and within this private forum that has more or less a targeted audience and delivers content to that end which should meet a common denominator for most if not all the time, then for sure most of it.

Choosing whether or not to be dispassionate about a subject being discussed is one thing, but words spark emotions in others that in turn sparks action. Emotions, in most people cannot be turned on and off like a tap. Hence all of us has probably said something in our lives that probably would have been better left unsaid.

But that's life. that's why there is an admin and moderators here, and that is all. :)

Attacks are ALWAYS begun with words wouldn't you say?

[wenshu]

Don't forget Colostomy Boxing 粪门拳。Shares a common historical lineage with Mouth Boxing 嘴口拳。

There exists a hybrid 粪门嘴口拳。Very rare.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's the thing though:
I have noticed that in real life, people just behave better, why?
Because they are not "hiding" behind the internet persona.
Second, the moment you decide to call anyone a fraud, liar or say they are misleading people and whatnot, then YOUR character is also being called into question, whether you like it or not.
When you question the experience and skill of another MA, then YOUR MA skill and experience is called into question.
Animinity protects those that just "talk for the sake of talking" and those tend to be the ones that cause all the trouble.

I have no issues of having my views questioned, I'd just like to know WHO is doing the questioning, I mean after all, we all have the right to "face our accusers" do we not?

[Dale Dugas]

Paul,

Excellent post, and worded much better than my previous posting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have no issues of having my views questioned, I'd just like to know WHO is doing the questioning, I mean after all, we all have the right to "face our accusers" do we not?

Just in a court of law.

You are often fond of saying that things can stand on their own merits. Unless, Anderson Silva or Randy Couture starts posting here, nobody has enough reputation that their identity is meaningful anyway.

[mooyingmantis]

Dale,
I agree with you completely!

I get tired you having to weed through the whining, rants, and a s shole remarks everyday when I come here.

I come to share and learn, not listen to p i s s a s s drama.

Man up, or shut up is my feeling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just in a court of law.

You are often fond of saying that things can stand on their own merits. Unless, Anderson Silva or Randy Couture starts posting here, nobody has enough reputation that their identity is meaningful anyway.

Of course certain views stand on their own merit but that isn't really the issue when personal attacks are involved.

[YouKnowWho]

If they really were interested in learning and sharing they would have no issues with telling people who and where they are.

Agree with you 100% there. It's hard to have any deep discussion if people don't know who the other person's background is. When people asked questions, since I'm not good in theory discussion, I like to provide personal youtube clips to show as examples. It's hard to hide who you are after you have put personal youtube clips on the internet. Through the forum discussion, I was asked to have workshops in Denver, Seattle, Oakland (next week). I have met a lot of people this way in real life. The way that I look at this is, as long as I can help just one person on internet, my time will not be wasted.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Of course certain views stand on their own merit but that isn't really the issue when personal attacks are involved.

I have a 3 step plan.
1. Don't reveal your identity over the Internet (create a new SN)
2. Let your ideas stand on their own merits
3. Institute a zero tolerance policy on attacks

This is not the place to defend and build a reputation. It seems to me that if you want to put yourself out here for all to see, then you have to take the good with the bad on some level.

[SPJ]

The way that I look at this is, as long as I can help just one person on internet, my time will not be wasted.

it is the way of kong fu zi or con fu scious.

the way of a teacher

the way of a shephard

the way of ---

:)

[YouKnowWho]

It's not that difficult to avoid argument and personal attack. If you started a thread, you suppose to "listen" to other's opinions. It makes no sense to start a thread so you can have chance to argue. I still remember not too long ago, someone started a thread to express his "new idea". People provided their suggestions and later found out that the thread starter was looking for nothing but either agreement with his assessments/conclusions, or positive reinforcement in the form for "wow, good job mate! keep it up!"

If a thread starter doesn't want any criticism, whether positive or negative. That thread should never be started in the 1st place. No matter which direction that thread may go, the thread starter should only "listen" and "appreciate other's input" and never involve in any argument. After all, the thread starter should already know his own opinion. There is no need to repeat his own opinion in his own thread.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think that it's a question of content versus context: while I agree with Dale's assessment of people who hide behind anonymous screen names and spew bile for its own sake are pretty much slugs (content), at the same time, I would suggest that his expectations of the context are excessive: in other words, we all know that part of the Internetz package is the ability to communicate anonymously in what is essentially a public sphere (this is not a new thing - for example, the concept of the Masked Ball is a great example of just exactly this phenomenon - although, of course, it may have been easier for the swords to come out then, lol); it's what gives the medium a bit of spice, if you will: there is a certain freedom that comes with anonymity, that allows one to say things that one would otherwise not: sometimes it's just vile slander, but other times, it actually enlivens and improves the discourse - I mean, think about it, if there was full disclosure at all times, it would make things rather dull on a certain level;

but anyway, I think that if one wishes to participate in this particular medium, one has to take it for granted that there will be necessity be anonymous slander directed at one from time to time, and just basically accept it as an a priori condition of the medium; certainly, I can understand if one is being stalked and reviled at every turn, but the occasional mouth boxer probably just needs to be ignored (and hey, with our new and improved moderation, they probably won't last that long anyway!)

just my 2¢...

[SPJ]

I am not against arguing

the truth will reveal only after cross exam by one self or participation of many

there are 7 people blindfolded in india.

1. first person felt the nose, and said it is a trunk

2. 2nd person felt the leg, and said it is a tree/pole

3. 3rd person felt the body and said it is a wall.

4. 4th person felt the tail, and said it is a rope.

5. 5th person felt the ear and said it is like a big piece of rug hanging

6. 6th person felt the tusk and said it is like a horn.

7. 7 th person did not say anyone is wrong, he said it is an elephant and every one was right.

---

[taai gihk yahn]

It's not that difficult to avoid argument and personal attack. If you started a thread, you suppose to "listen" to other's opinions. It makes no sense to start a thread so you can have chance to argue. I still remember not too long ago, someone started a thread to express his "new idea". People provided their suggestions and later found out that the thread starter was looking for nothing but either agreement with his assessments/conclusions, or positive reinforcement in the form for "wow, good job mate! keep it up!"

If a thread starter doesn't want any criticism, whether positive or negative. That thread should never be started in the 1st place. No matter which direction that thread may go, the thread starter should only "listen" and "appreciate other's input" and never involve in any argument. After all, the thread starter should already know his own opinion. There is no need to repeat his own opinion in his own thread.

you are wrong, John, and this sort of thing really belongs in a Judo forum anyway...;)

[SPJ]

looking at the big picture

the truth may be all inclusive at the same time it is exclusive

we are only limited by our openess.

if we may include all the viewpoints with our open mind

only then, may we have the big picture

each fact is only part of the whole truth.

---

[YouKnowWho]

you are wrong, John, and this sort of thing really belongs in a Judo forum anyway...;)

If you are not a Judo guy, the Judo forum is not the place for you. When someone made the following comment, I had no choice but to put my tail between my legs, ran like hell, and never looked back. :o

"You are not even a Judoka. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?"

[Dragonzbane76]

I really don't understand some people. You have an Ignore button, it works very well. You don't have to sit and listen to anyone b!tch, moan, troll, dumpster hump, etc... etc...

I don't even use the ignore button honestly, I just glance at the names of whose posting and comment on those that I find relavent. Other than that I just skim through ignoring most. If you've been around here any little bit you know who are idiots and whom has interesting things to speak about.

[Dragonzbane76]

I have no idea what you just said, but it made me laugh. :)

[SPJ]

kung fu forum posting is mobile for me nowadays

with ipad2 and all.

you see all e readers may grant you to browse the forum

and most importantly.

so when you drop your balls

wipe off your sweat

you may post or mouth wireless

talking about techno nowadays.

---

[Jimbo]

When I post, I try to write in the same way I would speak to someone face-to-face. That's my personal rule, and has been as long as I've been online. If anything, I'm even more tactful online than I am in person, if the other person is being an @ss.

I feel it's best to speak to others as I would like to be spoken to.

[EarthDragon]

dragonblaze, has the right idea, when you post you know who the members are that give insight, knowledge and a different but postitive point of view, just reply to thier posts and dont read or respond to the persons post whom you know is just looking to fight.

the #1 way to **** off someone is to irnore them, its makes them furious. if you respond or allow them to upset your life they have won.

[Water-quan]

Mouth Boxing has become rampant in this day and age of the internet.

Many people feel comfy and safe hiding behind the net, but should they be allowed to snipe and curse and insult people who are known, post up where they teach, etc?

I for one call anyone who starts trouble yet refuses to step up as an adult, a mouth boxer. They are cowards. If they really were interested in learning and sharing they would have no issues with telling people who and where they are.

I am not a mouth boxer, and always post up where people can find me for friendship or to learn how to be one with the floor or whatever you desire from the encounter.

Mouth Boxing can also get you into some serious trouble, like the kid who was mouthing off and then got chocked out. You talk crap, you need to understand the ramifications of said crap talking.

What say you fellow forum members?

net ghosts should be treated with the utmost contempt for being cowards.

Well, wouldn't the primary category of mouth boxer be people who assert themselves as martial arts experts and teachers, call others mouthboxers, but have no videos of themselves sparring or using their martial arts in a combative situation against competent opponents? Like you, I mean.

[Ray Pina]

Sometimes what you don't say or do also reveals a weakness.

[David Jamieson]

Sometimes what you don't say or do also reveals a weakness.

...or that you're not paying attention to that thread. lol

[Dale Dugas]

Well, wouldn't the primary category of mouth boxer be people who assert themselves as martial arts experts and teachers, call others mouthboxers, but have no videos of themselves sparring or using their martial arts in a combative situation against competent opponents? Like you, I mean.

more verbal drek from the premier net ghost at KFM.

how about videos of you doing anything? Oh, right that would mean people could see who you really were, and that would be scandalous, would it not?

You and others just cannot stop mouth boxing with me, and slander and libel me about my breaks, etc.

I am still waiting for all the naysayers and fraud callers to duplicate what I and others can do. Post up the videos that expose me for the fraud that I am, or not as you really cannot do what I and others can do.

Because you do not and cannot, then you are just another jealous little armchair wannabe martial artist/coward who would rather snipe at people who can actually do something other than post drek on forums.

Really, you think you are going to expose anything other than your hardon for attacking me and others who offer people certain material?

you and all the other net ghost babies can do nothing but cry really loud. Must be that load of drek you are sitting in.

Whatever net ghost.

[Dale Dugas]

Dang it!
I meant to post that song at Netcowardslurkbehindkeyboards.org!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We're ruined, Andre!
Ruined!!!!!!!!


Yet another drek spewing idiot who has a hardon for attacking me.

whatever net ghost.

[SPJ]

yes

do the do

walk the walk

talk the talk

the first 2 are more important.

some people are just here to do the last

and not the first 2.

we may just ignore them.

or talk is cheap

do and walk are everything or anything that is of value to us.

--

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mouth Boxing has become rampant in this day and age of the internet.

Many people feel comfy and safe hiding behind the net, but should they be allowed to snipe and curse and insult people who are known, post up where they teach, etc?

I for one call anyone who starts trouble yet refuses to step up as an adult, a mouth boxer. They are cowards. If they really were interested in learning and sharing they would have no issues with telling people who and where they are.

I am not a mouth boxer, and always post up where people can find me for friendship or to learn how to be one with the floor or whatever you desire from the encounter.

Mouth Boxing can also get you into some serious trouble, like the kid who was mouthing off and then got chocked out. You talk crap, you need to understand the ramifications of said crap talking.

What say you fellow forum members?

net ghosts should be treated with the utmost contempt for being cowards.

Dale, I assume that you put yourself out there to promote your school and herbs, right? You have a few youtube videos and you have up links to your cites where you are selling things. If you are going to reap the benefits of leading a public life then you have to deal with the criticism that comes with it too. If you are marketing your products and services with you as the spokesman, criticism is par for the course.

Now as far as your training and such, All I haver ever seen is the various iron techniques. Those sorts of things will always draw a ton of criticism that you have to expect. People who don't believe in those things can't be convinced. You do other things. If I were you, I would focus on demonstrations of things that draw far less criticism.

[David Jamieson]

Dale, I assume that you put yourself out there to promote your school and herbs, right? You have a few youtube videos and you have up links to your cites where you are selling things. If you are going to reap the benefits of leading a public life then you have to deal with the criticism that comes with it too. If you are marketing your products and services with you as the spokesman, criticism is par for the course.

Now as far as your training and such, All I haver ever seen is the various iron techniques. Those sorts of things will always draw a ton of criticism that you have to expect. People who don't believe in those things can't be convinced. You do other things. If I were you, I would focus on demonstrations of things that draw far less criticism.

I don't think anyone should take direction from their critics.
You are correct that they will exist and at times they will be vehement in their attacks on who you are or what you do.

Some are worth engaging, most aren't.

[SPJ]

talk is just talk.

we ignore them.

here is the story of how wu song beat the tiger.

wu song was drunk. and there was a dead tiger found with him lying next to it.

so people brought the tiger and wu song to county court.

there was a reward for the tiger since it killed village people.

nobody ever saw what actually happened.

1. wu song was too drunk to know what happened. he said he was walking in the woods to get home, he wrestled with a big guy and choked him. then he was tired or too drunk so he passed out, too.

2. a firewood collector remembered some shadows of a big man "beating" the tiger, he was too scare, he ran home and thought the big man was eaten by the tiger.

based on these, the judge said, it is wu song that beat the tiger, and give him the reward. and the case is close.

for all we know

the tiger may have been dead already, poisoned by village people baits, die of old age, malnutrition, parasites---

wu song bumped into the tiger on the road, and wrestled and choked a dead tiger

--

remember they are all talks.

no video, no actual witness, by today standard, nothing happens

no vid to prove, no witness to witness etc.

---

but county judge was in a hurry to close the case and give out the reward, so he can be promoted to his next official job.

--

the rest is history


or talk remains talk.

:)

[Kansuke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30GD25un0XQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUwwxWdm4k0&feature=related

[Water-quan]

more verbal drek from the premier net ghost at KFM.

how about videos of you doing anything? Oh, right that would mean people could see who you really were, and that would be scandalous, would it not?

You and others just cannot stop mouth boxing with me, and slander and libel me about my breaks, etc.

I am still waiting for all the naysayers and fraud callers to duplicate what I and others can do. Post up the videos that expose me for the fraud that I am, or not as you really cannot do what I and others can do.

Because you do not and cannot, then you are just another jealous little armchair wannabe martial artist/coward who would rather snipe at people who can actually do something other than post drek on forums.

Really, you think you are going to expose anything other than your hardon for attacking me and others who offer people certain material?

you and all the other net ghost babies can do nothing but cry really loud. Must be that load of drek you are sitting in.

Whatever net ghost.

So I'm to assume it's a no then - you don't have any videos of you using your skills actually in any kind of fight or combat situation?

[dirtyrat]

CMA always had an air of mystery around it. when i first started training, i hated that. later i had to admit there were advantages to this. why make videos of your techniques, tactics & strategy available?

on the other hand, i'm sort of grateful there's tons of material on other fighting arts on video to access strengths/weaknesses.

[IronWeasel]

So I'm to assume it's a no then - you don't have any videos of you using your skills actually in any kind of fight or combat situation?



Why beg for videos?

Really....who goes around video recording everything that they do?
(I almost said 'video taping', lol)

Why not just see it live and in person if that's available to you?

[SPJ]

nowadays

you may watch boxing or fights in your ipad or iphone.

and twit about it at the same time

---

[SPJ]

CMA always had an air of mystery around it. when i first started training, i hated that. later i had to admit there were advantages to this. why make videos of your techniques, tactics & strategy available?

on the other hand, i'm sort of grateful there's tons of material on other fighting arts on video to access strengths/weaknesses.

yes, you do not show your stuff/techiques in the public

let alone video tape it

and offer free for all

b/c people may devise counter techniques to your stuff/techniques

:eek:

[Water-quan]

Why beg for videos?

Really....who goes around video recording everything that they do?
(I almost said 'video taping', lol)

Why not just see it live and in person if that's available to you?


No, I don't want him to videotape everymoment of his life - I'm just noting that 'mouthboxer' first and foremost applies to anyone who says they'll beat people up yadda yadda, but don't have any evidence that they can even do martial arts in a live scenario.

You know, some vids of him sparring - is that too much to ask? Do you not think there should be some measure of public evidence to go with public claims? Am I really asking something ridiculous?

[MasterKiller]

No, I don't want him to videotape everymoment of his life - I'm just noting that 'mouthboxer' first and foremost applies to anyone who says they'll beat people up yadda yadda, but don't have any evidence that they can even do martial arts in a live scenario.

You know, some vids of him sparring - is that too much to ask? Do you not think there should be some measure of public evidence to go with public claims? Am I really asking something ridiculous?
You made your point, continual badgering will get this thread closed.

[YouKnowWho]

You know, some vids of him sparring - is that too much to ask? Do you not think there should be some measure of public evidence to go with public claims? Am I really asking something ridiculous?
I think it will be a good policy for this forum that if you ask others to put up a youtube clip, you should put up yours first.

[SPJ]

a few good friends of mine from taiwan

they were asked to put up real fight videos of baji

guess what they are like a few seconds

2 or 3 moves done, fight is over

--

:)

[YouKnowWho]

yes, you do not show your stuff/techiques in the public

let alone video tape it

and offer free for all

b/c people may devise counter techniques to your stuff/techniques

:eek:
You can also show a lot of wrong techniques and lead your opponent into the wrong track. For example, if you are a right hand person, you can show a lot of left hand techniques on youtube. The day that you meet your enemy, if he thinks that you are a left hand person, that will give you a lot of advantage.

What Sun Zi strategy will you call this?

[IronWeasel]

No, I don't want him to videotape everymoment of his life - I'm just noting that 'mouthboxer' first and foremost applies to anyone who says they'll beat people up yadda yadda, but don't have any evidence that they can even do martial arts in a live scenario.

You know, some vids of him sparring - is that too much to ask? Do you not think there should be some measure of public evidence to go with public claims? Am I really asking something ridiculous?


Would YOU post a clip of yourself, if asked?

[Water-quan]

Would YOU post a clip of yourself, if asked?


No, I wouldn't - but why would I need to? When did I ever makeany claims about myself, and ask for your cash?

Nice try at making it about me - but this is about people who claim to be kung fu experts and bad asses, but have nothing to show for it. I have nothing to show, but neither to do I claim to be a kung fu expert or a bad ass.

[Water-quan]

You made your point, continual badgering will get this thread closed.

Well we wouldn't want that to happen to this cerebral thread, would we?

[Water-quan]

I think it will be a good policy for this forum that if you ask others to put up a youtube clip, you should put up yours first.

Rubbish. If you really cared about CMA, or good policy, you'd think it a good rule if 'before claiming to be a kung fu expert, you show yourself sparring first'.

Just think how much rubbish we'll clean out when we apply that rule.

[Water-quan]

a few good friends of mine from taiwan

they were asked to put up real fight videos of baji

guess what they are like a few seconds

2 or 3 moves done, fight is over

--

:)

Well, cool. If Dale can do that, cool. But it's not just about Dale - it's one of the big problems of this forum. All of the experts, jockeying for kudos, do seem extremely hostile to the idea of showing any proof that backs up their self-claims.

You know, forget it - it's just a moment of madness, thinking that people might actually be better off we get the experts to show something of their level. I'm just a beginner, looking for someone who i think I could learn from - but, I'd never learn from anyone who talks, and talks... and more talks... and the talks some more. Would you? What a place the internet is for talking one's way to bad assness, lol.

[wenshu]

You can also show a lot of wrong techniques and lead your opponent into the wrong track. For example, if you are a right hand person, you can show a lot of left hand techniques on youtube. The day that you meet your enemy, if he thinks that you are a left hand person, that will give you a lot of advantage.

What Sun Zi strategy will you call this?

I prefer Han Fei Zi.
http://goo.gl/TAlZp

故曰：君無見其所欲，君見其所欲，臣自將雕琢；君無見其意，君見其意，臣將自表異。 故曰：去好去惡，臣乃見素；去（舊）〔智〕去（智）〔舊〕，臣乃自備。故有智而不以慮，使萬物 知其處； 有（行）〔賢〕而不以（賢）〔行〕，觀臣下之所因；有勇而不以怒，使群臣盡其武。是故去智而有 明， 去賢而有功，去勇而有強。群臣守職，百官有常，因能而使之，是謂習常。

故曰：寂乎其無位而處，漻乎莫得其所。明君無為於上，群臣竦懼乎下。 明君之道，使智者盡其慮，而君因以斷事，故君不窮於智；賢者勑其材，君因而任之，故君不窮於能 ； 有功則君有其賢，有過則臣任其罪，故君（子）不窮於名。是故不賢而為賢者師，不智而為（上）智 者正。 臣有其勞，君有其成功，此之謂賢主之經也。

道在不可見，用在不可知。虛靜無事，以闇見疵。見而不見，聞而不聞， 知而不知。知其言以往，勿變勿更，以參合閱焉。官有一人，勿令通言，則萬物皆盡。函掩其跡， 匿其端，下不能原。去其智，絕其能，下不能意。

Hence the saying: "The ruler must not reveal his wants. For, if he reveals his wants, the ministers will polish their manners accordingly. The ruler must not reveal his views. For, if he reveals his views, the ministers will display their hues differently." Hence another saying: "If the like and hate of the ruler be concealed, the true hearts of the ministers will be revealed. If the experience and wisdom of the ruler be discarded, the ministers will take precautions." Accordingly, the ruler, wise as he is, should not bother but let everything find its proper place; worthy as he is, should not be self-assumed but observe closely the ministers' motivating factors of conduct; and, courageous as he is, should not be enraged but let every minister display his prowess. So, leave the ruler's wisdom, then you will find the ministers' intelligence; leave the ruler's worthiness, then you will find the ministers' merits; and leave the ruler's courage, then you will find the ministers' strength. In such cases, ministers will attend to their duties, magistrates will have definite work routine, and everybody will be employed according to his special ability. Such a course of government is called "constant and immutable".

Hence the saying: "So quiet, it rests without footing; so vacant, it cannot be located." Thus, the intelligent ruler does nothing, but his ministers tremble all the more. It is the Tao of the intelligent ruler that he makes the wise men exhaust their mental energy and makes his decisions thereby without being himself at his wits' end; that he makes the worthy men exert their talents and appoints them to office accordingly without being himself at the end of his ability; and that in case of merits the ruler gains the renown and in case of demerit the ministers face the blame so that the ruler is never at the end of his reputation. Therefore, the ruler, even though not worthy, becomes the master of the worthies; and, even though not wise, becomes the corrector of the wise men. It is the ministers who do the toil; it is the ruler who gets the spoil. This is the everlasting principle of the worthy sovereign. 4

Tao exists in invisibility; its function, in unintelligibility. Be empty and reposed and have nothing to do-Then from the dark see defects in the light. See but never be seen. Hear but never be heard. Know but never be known. If you hear any word uttered, do not change it nor move it but compare it with the deed and see if word and deed coincide with each other. Place every official with a censor. Do not let them speak to each other. Then everything will be exerted to the utmost. Cover tracks and conceal sources. Then the ministers cannot trace origins. Leave your wisdom and cease your ability. Then your subordinates cannot guess at your limitations.

[IronWeasel]

I'm just a beginner, looking for someone who i think I could learn from -


There is the BS.

If that were true, you would have watched the vid, and either learned from him if you liked it....or moved on if you didn't.

It's the incessant badgering, that shows that you just want to get a rise out of the guy.

You're just here to play...not learn.

[taai gihk yahn]

I prefer Han Fei Zi.
http://goo.gl/TAlZp

You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.
- Franz Kafka

[David Jamieson]

You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.
- Franz Kafka

you deep deep ******* you... lol :p


water quan, please stop. Your constant badgering of Dale serves no purpose whatsoever. Things is what they is.

cease and desist. thanks.

[lkfmdc]

water quan, please stop. Your constant badgering of Dale serves no purpose whatsoever. Things is what they is.

cease and desist. thanks.

is there a reason you don't post this warning to "hardwork"? :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

is there a reason you don't post this warning to "hardwork"? :rolleyes:

I did. You need to quicken up old man. :)

[Water-quan]

There is the BS.

If that were true, you would have watched the vid, and either learned from him if you liked it....or moved on if you didn't.

It's the incessant badgering, that shows that you just want to get a rise out of the guy.

You're just here to play...not learn.

Well, much as it pains me to say 'he started it' lmao, just so you know - I mean, just so you don't have the perception that I suddenly started badgering poor Dale for some unknown reason, I actually onlycommented on this thread when Dale left "How's life you cowardly little girl?" on my profile message page. Things aren't always as they seem, and it's not always the people who you think who have the hard on.

However, that does indicate to me the astonishing level of childishness - never mind fraud - on this forum. And I make a douche out of myself just by reading here, and dragmyself down to its level just by responding. So all's well that ends.