Eye-Gouging in Tanglangquan

[mooyingmantis]

The eye-gouging methods of Tanglangquan were mentioned in a previous thread as one of the techniques Sifu Brendan Lai had mastered.

That discussion led me to check out some of the basic facts about the technique as revealed in the forms of Qixing Tanglangquan, Taiji Tanglangquan and Liu He Tanglangquan.

Here are my preliminary notes:

Various Names found in Quan Pu:

螳 螂 點 睛
táng láng diǎn jīng
Praying Mantis Dots the Pupils

抹 眉 干 眼
mo méi gān yǎn
Wipe Eyebrow & Jab Eyes

雙 刁 手 取 眼
shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn
Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes

掛 刁 取 眼
guà diāo qǔ yǎn
Hang Hook, Take the Eyes

指 路 三 針
zhǐ lù sān zhēn
Three Needles Point to the Road

Select Forms Containing Eye-Gouging:

Beng Bu
Tanglang Shou
Li Pi
Cang Hua
Hei Hu Jiao Cha
Bai Yuan Xian Shu
Bai Yuan Xian Tao
Dan Cha Hua Quan
Tanglang Chu Dong

Feel free to add your thoughts and comments. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Here is the problem for the striking art. When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent. compare to the following:

A: Dear judge, we got into argument. Our body tangled on each other. We both fell down. His head hit the ground and cracked his skull. His death was a pure accident and I didn't do anything.
B: Why did you eat his brain then?
A: I was hungry.

[-N-]

When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent.

That happened when we both fell down too :)

[mooyingmantis]

Here is the problem for the striking art. When you have 2 eye balls on your finger tips, it's very difficult for jury to say that you are innocent.

John,
You make a valid point and a humorous analogy. :)

However, self-defense is a dirty task. An attacker has already proven that he does not respect your rights, nor does he value your physical and emotional well-being.

Will you really hold back and risk being maimed or killed because you are afraid of the legal ramifications? In a true self-preservation situation you will fight like you trained. Your attacker will also fight like he trained. Was mercy on his mind during his training?

If attacked, I will kick, gouge, bite, etc. to survive the encounter. I believe in an actual encounter, most will try to do the same. Isn't it better to be prepared with the most effective techniques?

[YouKnowWho]

雙 刁 手 取 眼
shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn
Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes

If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes. One of my MA friends always carrys a bottle of red pepper. He always throws the red pepper at his opponent's eyes before his attack. It's pretty much the same principle. A groin kick followed by a cross fingers eyes attack, you can then jump in and beat the sh!t out of your opponent.

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Great strategies!


If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes.

The finger fanning you describe is found in the Tanglangquan form 白 猿 献 果 - bái yuán xiàn guǒ - White Ape Offers Fruit. The technique is called: 三 抹 眉 - sān mǒ méi - Three Times Wipe Eyebrows.


A groin kick followed by a cross fingers eyes attack, you can then jump in and beat the sh!t out of your opponent.

This strategy is found in 黑 虎 交 叉 - hēi hǔ jiāo chā - Black Tiger Crossing. In the technique 雙 刁 手 取 眼 - shuāng diāo shǒu qǔ yǎn - Double Hook Hands, Take the Eyes the opponent's lead arm is swept to the side while executing a front lifting kick to the opponent's lead leg or groin. While the opponent is distracted by the low kick, the Mantis practitioner stabs the opponent's eyes using a scissor hand strike with the rear hand.

[RenDaHai]

If you swing your hand across your opponent's eyes, you may have better result. 5 fingers x 2 eyes = 10. You will have 10 chances to have any of your finger hit one of your opponent's eyes. .

I like a similar technique to MO MEI called 'Jin Sha Fei Zhang' Flying sand palm (like throwing sand in your opponents eyes).

You do it the same as mo mei except you also swipe the eyes when you return the hand. So it swipes once across both eyes on the way out and then returns along the same path and swipes again, doubling your chance. Often followed by a cheeky tiger claw to the happysack with the other hand. (Together called Hai di lou yue, fish the moon out of the sea).

[mantid1]

I think it is an interesting post and mooying seems to put a lot of thought into the forms.

It does bring up a good point. I have taught many people through the years and i believe that many of them that will not fight at least moderate contact would have a hard time striking a person let alone gouging them in the eyes.

Im a firm believer in taking the first shot if possible, if not "if you start late you must finish first". No, not a sucker punch....if I now it is inevitable im going for it. It is more difficult if you have never fought. I have my doubts about gouging someones eyes...but if I was sure it was a life or death scenerio I think I could. Many different levels to fighting from settling it with psychology to ripping their heart out with your teeth.

[RenDaHai]

@Mantid1

I know what you mean, people don't like to do these kind of techniques. But we don't always mean trying to tear the eyes out. The mo mei technique is just like a swipe of the end of the fingers across the eyes, it won't do permanent damage (necessarily) and in terms of psychological 'squemish-ness' I think it is easier than punching someone straight in the face.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It has been my experience that for eye-gouging to work that the head needs to be "immobilized" in some sort of way.
One must recognize that there MAY come a time when crippling an attacker is an option that must be used.

[mooyingmantis]

I think it is an interesting post and mooying seems to put a lot of thought into the forms.

Thanks Dave! As a traditionalist, I take forms study and practice very seriously. I remember you were also quite adept at forms yourself when I was privileged to have met you.


It does bring up a good point. I have taught many people through the years and i believe that many of them that will not fight at least moderate contact would have a hard time striking a person let alone gouging them in the eyes.

I agree, students must be desensitized to the horror of these types of techniques. Over the years I have taught women's self-defense/rape prevention classes and have developed methods of desensitizing the participants to the grossness of applying these extreme techniques.


Im a firm believer in taking the first shot if possible, if not "if you start late you must finish first". No, not a sucker punch....if I now it is inevitable im going for it. It is more difficult if you have never fought. I have my doubts about gouging someones eyes...but if I was sure it was a life or death scenerio I think I could. Many different levels to fighting from settling it with psychology to ripping their heart out with your teeth.

Again, I firmly agree. Eye-gouging must be a preemptive strike. The attack must be sudden, committed and violent, or it will not work. Rolling around on the ground or having one's panties around their ankles is the wrong time to start a technique like this. Biting works better there.


@Mantid1

I know what you mean, people don't like to do these kind of techniques. But we don't always mean trying to tear the eyes out. The mo mei technique is just like a swipe of the end of the fingers across the eyes, it won't do permanent damage (necessarily) and in terms of psychological 'squemish-ness' I think it is easier than punching someone straight in the face.

Good point as far as people's willingness to attack in this way, rather than sticking fingers through a squishy eyeball! Though there is also the risk of only pi$$ing off the attacker more if you are not able to fully incapacitate them within seconds after attacking their eyes. Eye-gouging must be violent and extreme.

It must also NOT be seen as a "finishing" move. It must be followed by more incapacitating attacks. Once the attacker loses an eye he may: 1. lose his fighting spirit, or 2. realize the seriousness of the situation and begin fighting ever more maliciously to save his own life.


It has been my experience that for eye-gouging to work that the head needs to be "immobilized" in some sort of way.

Perhaps in a grappling scenario. But my feeling is that once it goes to the ground, eye-gouging drops low on the list of techniques that I would include to end the encounter.

Excellent feedback guys!

BTW, I have used an eye attack of the mo mei variety in a self-defense situation. It worked as I had drilled it! My opinions are not just based on theory and forms practice. :)

[EarthDragon]

my shifu who was good friends with branden lai, always said he liked to poke the eyes, that way he didnt have to put much effort into fighting and would end the confrontation quickly and easliy. My shifu would joke and say "maybe cuz he not want to mess upa hisa hair do".

But then he would always say when teaching fight winning techniques, "remember its not HOW you won the fight, its IF"

[-N-]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/smfistoflegend.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/smfistoflegend.gif

Pansy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MiposHT60

[MightyB]

Pansy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MiposHT60

Man I used to love segal before he got all weird.
http://chud.com/articles/content_images/5/macheteseagal.jpg

[-N-]

Pansy

Just lazy :D

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/leaf.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just lazy :D

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/leaf.gif

I can hear Jet Li now:
"sure he can cut a leaf in two, but can he crack walnuts between his ass cheeks like JCVD !!"

[MightyB]

New Fist of Legend is by far the coolest Jet Li movie.

[mooyingmantis]

I pulled this from the thread Northern Mantis Challenge Matches, since I thought it was germaine to this discussion:


I can also be argued that if one can't do "gross motor skills' ( punching and kicking) effectively in a fight then "fine motor skills" ( eye strikes and throat shots) are even less likely to work.

I view eye-gouging as a "gung". A skill in itself that must be developed. It is certainly a higher art form. Yet the arm action is no different than a lead jab or a reverse punch.

Unlike many TCMA attacks, eye-gouging requires less power and more speed. The emphasis must be on speed! And the key to speed is relaxed, natural motions done quickly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I pulled this from the thread Northern Mantis Challenge Matches, since I thought it was germaine to this discussion:



I view eye-gouging as a "gung". A skill in itself that must be developed. It is certainly a higher art form. Yet the arm action is no different than a lead jab or a reverse punch.

Unlike many TCMA attacks, eye-gouging requires less power and more speed. The emphasis must be on speed! And the key to speed is relaxed, natural motions done quickly.

I would add that the mantis claw is "uniquely" suited for such.

[mooyingmantis]

How would or do you train eye-gouging?

I allow students to wear safety goggles during sparring to allow eye strikes. Any thoughts on this?

Do you have specific equipment that you use to train the speed and accuracy needed for eye strikes?

I used to practice with a ping-pong ball suspended by a string to increase my accuracy. I have also used a piece of paper suspended by two strings. The idea with the paper is to strike it fast enough to tear the paper before it can move, kind of like the method used in a speed break with a board.

[Jimbo]

When I was younger, I had an idea and cut two eye holes in a piece of cardboard, suspended it from both sides with twine, and poked at it for accuracy. You could also use a plastic Halloween mask, if you have one, though IMO the cardboard or a piece of linoleum is cheaper/more durable.

It's only for accuracy on a fairly stationary target, though it bobs a bit and you can move around it.

[mooyingmantis]

When I was younger, I had an idea and cut two eye holes in a piece of cardboard, suspended it from both sides with twine, and poked at it for accuracy. You could also use a plastic Halloween mask, if you have one, though IMO the cardboard or a piece of linoleum is cheaper/more durable.

It's only for accuracy on a fairly stationary target, though it bobs a bit and you can move around it.

Jimbo,
The plastic or new latex Halloween mask idea is GENIUS! Especially if placed over a styrofoam mannequin head and mounted to something stable.

My favorite choice now is B.O.B. (Body Opponent Bag). Here is a vid of him on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRbTC2ZiWM&feature=relmfu

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,
The plastic or new latex Halloween mask idea is GENIUS! Especially if placed over a styrofoam mannequin head and mounted to something stable.

My favorite choice now is B.O.B. (Body Opponent Bag). Here is a vid of him on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRbTC2ZiWM&feature=relmfu

Yes, the B.O.B. is excellent. I don't own one yet, but have played with them before...IMO, its biggest strength is you can practice so many more things besides only the orthodox punching, etc. Eye/throat strikes, etc.

Another training method I've heard of but haven't tried is slicing a watermelon, orange, or some other fruit in half, and practicing eye stabs into the fleshy part, supposedly to help one overcome squeamishness, to some degree. Because the eyes are squishy, of course. I still think it isn't close to the real thing, because the eyeballs have more elasticity, etc. Plus, I don't like the idea of wasting produce. :)

[-N-]

I still think it isn't close to the real thing, because the eyeballs have more elasticity, etc. Plus, I don't like the idea of wasting produce.

You can buy pig/goat/cow heads at the Chinese and Mexican markets. You can cook and eat them too if they haven't been at room temperature too long.

[-N-]

New Fist of Legend is by far the coolest Jet Li movie.

Here's some Mantis for you.

Too bad his tiou is defensive only and he gets pwned.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-90157138.gif

[-N-]

Here's some Mantis for you.

Too bad his tiou is defensive only and he gets pwned.


He switches to boxing later in the scene. His Mantis was not developed enough.

[-N-]

A groin kick followed by a cross fingers eyes attack, you can then jump in and beat the sh!t out of your opponent.

The other way around is more classic. It's in your Bung Bo.

[mantid1]

Now that I think about it....I have to make sure the students dont gouge it other in the eyes on accident when they are sparring with no gloves or open gloves.....I dotn even have to train them....they have eye gouging down!

[mooyingmantis]

The other way around is more classic. It's in your Bung Bo.

Yep, technique number 29 in the Qixing Tanglangquan version of Beng Bu 抹 眉 干 眼 - mo méi gān yǎn - Wipe Eyebrow & Jab Eyes, or in WHF quan pu 踢 腿 刁 取 眼 - tī tuǐ diāo qǔ yǎn Kick Leg, Hook & Take Eye. Which is a left high defend coupled with a simultaneous right jumping front kick and a right scissor-hand (剪 手 - jiǎn shǒu) strike to the eyes.


Now that I think about it....I have to make sure the students dont gouge it other in the eyes on accident when they are sparring with no gloves or open gloves.....I dotn even have to train them....they have eye gouging down!

LOL!

[YouKnowWho]

The other way around is more classic. It's in your Bung Bo.
Usually you use eye strike, groin kick combo when you retreat. When you advance, since you have to enter the kicking range before entering the punching range, kick 1st and punch later will make more sense.

[mooyingmantis]

Toward the end of the Liu He Tanglangquan form 藏 花 - cáng huā - Hidden Flower, there is a technique called: 螳 螂 點 睛 手 - táng láng dian jīng shou - Praying Mantis Dots the Pupils Hand .

The technique starts with the downward redirecting of the opponent's lead hand by means of LHTLQ's unique method of performing 勾 摟 - gōu lōu - Hook & Hold, followed by a spear-hand attack to the opponent's eye or throat.

The spear-hand used in LHTLQ is the same hand position as the nukite of Shotokan Karate.

Here is video of the movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1M73beMxU8

[-N-]

Usually you use eye strike, groin kick combo when you retreat. When you advance, since you have to enter the kicking range before entering the punching range, kick 1st and punch later will make more sense.

Eye attack hides the groin kick. In Bung Bo, you have eye attack that precedes the simultaneous eye attack jump kick. So multiple eye attacks set up the kick.

If I kick first, as on the way in, I don't need eye attack. I just finish with a power move.

[mooyingmantis]

Eye attack hides the groin kick. In Bung Bo, you have eye attack that precedes the simultaneous eye attack jump kick. So multiple eye attacks set up the kick.

Where is the first eye attack? Tiger Riding, Double Bind Hands precedes the Kick Leg, Hook & Take Eyes. Do you see eye attacks in Double Hooks, Left Seize Leg and Double Hooks, Right Seize Leg? Or do you see the Tiger Riding, Double Bind Hands as a hidden eye attack?

I am not debating, nor saying you are wrong. I am just unaware of a prior "eye attack that precedes the simultaneous eye attack jump kick".

Thanks in advance!

[B.Tunks]

-N- is right. It's a left hand eye slash/wipe (or poke in some versions) followed by a right simultaneous eye poke with jumping groin kick.

In one version from my family the left eye slash also has a simultaneous left kick preceding the jumping right. So it becomes a switch kick. In application you can choose which kick goes to the ribs, which one to the nuts.

[EarthDragon]

mooying, you are forgettign the eye attack in lipi? do you know that form

[MightyB]

This conversation makes me chuckle about a saying we used to use in class when referring to simultaneous attacks - didn't matter if it was an eye poke with a kick, palm with a kick, chop with a kick, or punch with a kick... we'd say "You choose, face or balls?"

:D

[-N-]

This conversation makes me chuckle about a saying we used to use in class when referring to simultaneous attacks [...]

:D

"teh deadly. no can defen."

:D

[mooyingmantis]

-N- is right. It's a left hand eye slash/wipe (or poke in some versions) followed by a right simultaneous eye poke with jumping groin kick.

In one version from my family the left eye slash also has a simultaneous left kick preceding the jumping right. So it becomes a switch kick. In application you can choose which kick goes to the ribs, which one to the nuts.

-N- and Brendan,
SWEEEET! That is a new application to me. I see what you mean now.

In the Ling Beng Bu (WHF), after the double bind hands:
1. The left hand hooks and holds an incoming left reverse strike,
2. Then the simultaneous right front kick/eye jab is performed.
So I never considered that the hook hand could also be a raking finger strike.

Thanks for the enlightenment! :)


mooying, you are forgettign the eye attack in lipi? do you know that form

Mike,
I have three versions of the form on video (Eight Step, Long Fist and Seven Star), but I was never taught the form. Care to expound on the technique for us?


This conversation makes me chuckle about a saying we used to use in class when referring to simultaneous attacks - didn't matter if it was an eye poke with a kick, palm with a kick, chop with a kick, or punch with a kick... we'd say "You choose, face or balls?"

:D

LOL!!!

[yu shan]

Brendan

In our ling form we do as you explained with the two kicks. We start this maneuver from shuang feng shou. Cheers!

Jim

[mooyingmantis]

Brendan

In our ling form we do as you explained with the two kicks. We start this maneuver from shuang feng shou. Cheers!

Jim

Jim,
Which version of Beng Bu were you taught: Qixing, Taiji Meihua, Mimen?

[B.Tunks]

In the Ling Beng Bu (WHF), after the double bind hands:
1. The left hand hooks and holds an incoming left reverse strike,
2. Then the simultaneous right front kick/eye jab is performed.
So I never considered that the hook hand could also be a raking finger strike.


One of the limitations of ling taolu.

[mooyingmantis]

One of the limitations of ling taolu.

Yes, I see that now. :)

[mooyingmantis]

mooying, you are forgetting the eye attack in lipi?

I also forgot movements 21 & 22 of the WHF version of Praying Mantis Exits the Cave - (螳 螂 出 洞 - táng láng chū dòng), Advance Pattern, Pluck & Take Eyes - 進 式 采 取 眼 - jìn shì cǎi qǔ yǎn.

[EarthDragon]

mooying,
heres the translated version its in the 24 move of the 3rd road

3rd SET ( DI SAN TAU ) POWERCUT ( LI PI )

1.MANTIS STANCE
2.LEFT DOWN BLOCK , STEP TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST
3.TURN TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT GROIN STRIKE
4.RIGHT LOW BLOCK , PUNCH LEFT , PUNCH RIGHT
5.STEALING HANDS RIGHT POWERCUT
6.STEP TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT BACKFIST
7.TURN TO LEFT BOW, LEFT BACKFIST
8.STEP RIGHT , POWERCUT
9.STOMP , RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST
10.STEALING HANDS , SIDE STEP TO UPPER-POWERCUT
11.TAI CHI HI –LOW BLOCK
12.DROP SHIN
13.CROSS OVER , STEALING HANDS , OVERELBOW
14.TURN TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT BACKFIST
15.TURN TO LEFT BOW , LEFT BACKFIST
16.STEP RIGHT , POWERCUT
17.DOUBLE OPEN BLOCK , BOX EARS , PULL , FRONT KICK
18.UPPERCUT PHENOIX EYE
19.STEALING HANDS , OVER ELBOW
20.RIGHT GROIN STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST, RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST
21.RIGHT CHOPPING HANDS , X-LEG , GROIN STRIKE
22.STEALING HANDS , ELBOW STRIKE
23.STEP TO RIGHT BOW , PUSH ELBOW

24.RIGHT EYE ATTACK , STEALING HANDS , HOOK FIST

25.TURN LEFT , LOW SWEEP , LOW SWEEP
26.RIGHT BACKFIST , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB , MANTIS KICK
27.PROTECT HANDS , MANTIS STANCE

[mooyingmantis]

Mike,
Thanks for posting this! Great stuff!

Do you mind giving an example of how the move works?

[EarthDragon]

altough I find it dificult to explain in words actual movments I will give it a shot.
from the last application

23.STEP TO RIGHT BOW , PUSH ELBOW

you perform a push elbow like (press) in Taji, when your opp defends/bloclks or perries you slip your right arm under your left while circling it inward counter clockwise, you grab their left blocking hand with your left pull down thier guard and while circling the right arm under stiull counter clocklwise you open the fingers like spock from star trek with 2 fingers on each side open in the middle, and strike the eyes, when your oppent is temporaray blinded, you do a stealing hand with the left and then throw a hook punch still counter clockwise to the cheekbone while you front sweep the leg "ti" and your oppenet is on the ground still with poked eyes unable to see or defend himself

24.RIGHT EYE ATTACK , STEALING HANDS , HOOK FIST

hope I explianed it well enough its is very simple and quick to do with minimal effort

[mooyingmantis]

Mike,
Thanks for the explanation!

[phoenixdog]

Eye gouge/eye strike is in the essence of mantis applications. As much as people like to dis Wah Lum , they teach a basic form called 'eagle claw' which has a thumb eye gouge. The very last confrontation that I was in (I'll spare you the details that lead up to this, as fighting should be the absolute last means to resolve a conflict), butI can say this technique was effective. Humans hate to have their eyes messesd with.