Biting in a fight

[IronFist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kino_mutai


Kino mutai (or kina mutai) is a specialized sub-section of some Filipino martial arts that emphasizes biting and also covers eye-gouging. It involves extensive use of grappling, so as to allow the practitioner to control the opponent while applying the techniques.

The biting aspect of kino mutai concerns itself with what targets to bite, how much to bite at a time, and the angle and movement of the bite. Favoured targets include sensitive and easily accessible areas such as the face, neck, ear, groin, nipple, and latissimus dorsi muscle. These targets are also chosen over others because of the difficulty countering a kino mutai practitioner biting them, and hence to ensure that an uninterrupted bite can take place.

Anyone ever train with biting?

Or how to defend against a bite?

[Grumblegeezer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kino_mutaiAnyone ever train with biting? Or how to defend against a bite?

No, not personally, but some of the FMA guys I train with have discussed it and I ran into a Silat guy that put a lot of emphasis on biting as well as grabbing and tearing flesh. He was a grappler and claimed that a big flaw in the way a lot of people approach grappling is that they leave themselves totally open to bites, flesh ripping, groin attacks, gouges, and so on. I get the impression that this guy approached fighting like a rabid chimp. I suppose if you were a boxer, the best approach would be to just break his jaw. But if it went to the clinch or to the ground???

So, to return to your question, biting is definitely something worth thinking about. Anybody here a biter?

[LFJ]

Sounds pretty dirty, in more ways than one. Carry on with your groin biting. Fortunately my life is never in such serious danger where I live that I would need to resort to such an unsanitary tactic. Especially considering the type of people who fight around here. I wouldn't want to touch them with my shoe, much less put my mouth on them....

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMhVLPwH47k

[wenshu]

Gene wrote a good piece on this.
http://www.tigerclaw.com/blog/2010/12/biters-vs-fighters/


Bites are so visceral, so primal. It’s a vicious way to attack another human. There’s personal violation on an instinctual level. Their bone penetrates your flesh. Worst of all, the human mouth is filthy. A bite can cause a major avulsion that gets infected easily.


***

When someone bites you, do NOT pull away. That’s the instinctive reaction but you must overcome it. When you pull away, it gives the biter a better opportunity to chomp off a chunk of flesh. Never pull away. Never let anyone else pull the biter away. If the biter pulls away, it is easier for the jaws snap shut and you will lose a chunk of flesh. You’ll be left with a nasty avulsion that is very difficult to heal. Don’t attempt to strike the biter either. That can aid pulling away, albeit indirectly. When struck, a biter will probably chomp down harder. Instead, push your body into the bite. That splits the jaw bone from the skull and smothers the biter so they have to loosen up. So don’t pull. Push. Push to choke the biter off you.

[PalmStriker]

No, not personally, but some of the FMA guys I train with have discussed it and I ran into a Silat guy that put a lot of emphasis on biting as well as grabbing and tearing flesh. He was a grappler and claimed that a big flaw in the way a lot of people approach grappling is that they leave themselves totally open to bites, flesh ripping, groin attacks, gouges, and so on. I get the impression that this guy approached fighting like a rabid chimp. I suppose if you were a boxer, the best approach would be to just break his jaw. But if it went to the clinch or to the ground???

So, to return to your question, biting is definitely something worth thinking about. Anybody here a biter? You would still want to break his jaw as soon as possible. Besides hammerfist strikes you would want to practice double-palm- like abrupt head twist strikes to keep biters or grapplers at bay. Why take any chances. Meet grappling with explosive targeted strikes, full power. Head-butt a biter if you have trained to do so.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Well, I train for it by default...I work in a Behavioral Health Unit aka Funny Farm and at times we have to restrain assaultive patients, once they've had their hands and feet secured they go right for biting/spitting.

When someone is biting you, instinct tells you to pull away, if you're quick enough you can do this before their teeth have secured your flesh. We advise against this practice because sooner or later they will clamp down and you will end up tearing or ripping your skin. The correct action is to push into the biters mouth, forcing their jaw open, they will lose biting force and perhaps you can engage their gag reflex if for example your hand were caught in their mouth. If its your leg or torso, hopefully you are in a position where you can apply body weight onto your opponent either smothering them or again forcing the jaw open. I have heard this suggested for dog biting attacks as well. Its a great theory but you must react quickly, it will get your 'blood' up as you usually have split seconds to react from either a human or dog biting attack.

Vampires and psycho ex girlfriends are a whole another story...

[IronFist]

That article about "ripping out a chunk of your flesh" made me squirm. I imagined someone biting someone else in the side or the thigh or ripping out a mouthful of meat, leaving a huge chunk missing (like a surfboard after a shark attack):

http://i.imgur.com/D177m.jpg

Gross :eek:

So do these groups train for biting (and biting defense) with upper and lower mouthguards in?

[PlumDragon]

Not biting specifically, but definitely grabbing, twisting, pulling and scratching of flesh. These are in addition to less "destructive" means of attacking the enemy which may cause them to pause or otherwise become vulnerable, to include use of verbal language, yelling, feints, and even spitting.

[Lee Chiang Po]

In any fight you need to be seriously motivated to win at any and all costs. Costs to your assailant that is. Biting is just another weapon in your arsonal. I once saved myself by biting a very large black man in a most savage manner. I was not aware that a person could bite with so much force. I was attacked by two homeless men, and I am quite convinced that I would have been murdered for what I might have had in my pockets. You don't have to train biting. I am not even sure how you would go about training it. However, if it comes down to it, biting is something that will change the way things are going down. Remember that when you find yourself in a situation where you are somewhat helpless to retaliate, go to biting like you mean it. I strongly suspect that if it were allowed in MMA you could win just about every match with a first round submission.

[IronFist]

I remember in my first grappling lesson ever I was shown an armbar from the mount (this one: http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/637252/armbar-full-mount-800x800_medium.jpg) and being a noob I asked "what if you just bit the guy in the leg as he was armbarring you?"

The reply was "half a second later you would let go of the bite as your scream in pain because your elbow just got broken."

Discuss.

[donjitsu2]

When someone is biting you, instinct tells you to pull away, if you're quick enough you can do this before their teeth have secured your flesh. We advise against this practice because sooner or later they will clamp down and you will end up tearing or ripping your skin. The correct action is to push into the biters mouth, forcing their jaw open, they will lose biting force and perhaps you can engage their gag reflex if for example your hand were caught in their mouth. If its your leg or torso, hopefully you are in a position where you can apply body weight onto your opponent either smothering them or again forcing the jaw open. I have heard this suggested for dog biting attacks as well.


This is how I was taught to defend against bites when I did Loss Prevention at Target. We were also taught "attack" the pressure point just below the nose by applying pressure with a "phoenix eye fist".



I consider biting someone in self defense as a "last line". I'd only do it if it would save my life and I had no other alternative.

Blood born pathogens are a serious concern.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[YouKnowWho]

To bite someone's finger off may be the most effective way to stop a fight. Not only the amount of pain, blood, but also the fear to lose that finger forever will be enough to remove the desire of fighting (you can still connect it back if you can go to hospital fast enough). One time someone attacked my teacher's eyes with fingers, my teacher bit his finger off. He said the human finger was very "crispy".

[Syn7]

i have seen biting used as an effective distraction when one is being overwealmed in a grappling situation... standing or on the ground.... BUT, there are times when itrs a real bad idea... like when somebody has a rear naked choke on ya, dont bite, they will tear your face apart... i heard of cats biting during triangle escapes but the way i se it is that ifg your head is already that far out, just pull back and watch the armbar and you should be fine...

[YouKnowWho]

Anyone ever train with biting?

Beginner level training: Get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all the way to the bone.
Intermediate level training: Try to bite a live snake's head off or a live dog's leg off.
Advance level training: Go to the zoo and test your skill against live lion or live tiger.

[mooyingmantis]

Anyone ever train with biting?

Or how to defend against a bite?

Certainly have, certainly do!

I have bit opponent's more than once. Especially in a grappling situation.

I have never had to break the skin of an opponent. However, I have also never had someone foolish enough to challenge me twice to a fight.

Mantids and monkeys are wonderful biters! :D

Years ago when I taught MR/DD adults in Indiana, I taught the other employees Physical Management of Violent Clients. This course included dealing with biters.

[IronFist]

Years ago when I taught MR/DD adults in Indiana, I taught the other employees Physical Management of Violent Clients. This course included dealing with biters.

How did you teach them to defend against it?

[Grumblegeezer]

... BUT, there are times when itrs a real bad idea... like when somebody has a rear naked choke on ya, dont bite, they will tear your face apart... i heard of cats biting during triangle escapes but the way i se it is that ifg your head is already that far out, just pull back and watch the armbar and you should be fine...

Interesting. I agree that "there are times when it's a real bad idea", but if you've got a rear naked choke on me good and solid... how the hell am I (or anybody else) gonna be able to bite you? As you can see I'm not a trained grappler... it's on my "to do" list, OK? Anyway, people who know what they're doing have demonstrated that choke on me... and once it's on, I was gone!

On the other hand, if they are just struggling to get it on you... then you might be able to bite them. And I'd agree, once they cross that line, anything goes. So if you want to fight eye for and eye, tooth and claw, a brazos partidos, and rip their face off, why not?

[Grumblegeezer]

I remember in my first grappling lesson ever I was shown an armbar from the mount (this one: http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/637252/armbar-full-mount-800x800_medium.jpg) and being a noob I asked "what if you just bit the guy in the leg as he was armbarring you?"

The reply was "half a second later you would let go of the bite as your scream in pain because your elbow just got broken."

Discuss.

OK. I'd rather be the elbow breaker than the biter... but wouldn't it depend on whether you've really got the arm-bar on good? Like in my last post... what if the guys doing his best to counter and in that instant before you set the armbar... ka-CHOMP!

Here's the stud-ly John Saxon and the mighty Bolo Yeung giving the classic demonstration of this point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0naElS1QDEE

[mooyingmantis]

How did you teach them to defend against it?

In this type of course you must control the aggressor without causing any injury whatsoever. So, keep that in mind. Also, methods differ based on where you are being bitten.

The classic method used in schools and institutions against a bite when it is already in place is to pinch the nostrils closed so they have a hard time breathing.

The second method is to push upward against the septum of the nose where it meets the maxilla with the thumb.

To avoid a bite, it is best to control the rotation of the neck. Place the palmar surface of the hand at the junction of the neck and the corner of the jaw (mandible) and wrap the fingers around the back of the neck. Applying pressure against the back of the jaw rotates the head away from your hand. There is a point one can press on the posterior surface of the neck that will naturally turn the head in the direction of the gripping arm that can aid in a take-down.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I remember in my first grappling lesson ever I was shown an armbar from the mount (this one: http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/637252/armbar-full-mount-800x800_medium.jpg) and being a noob I asked "what if you just bit the guy in the leg as he was armbarring you?"

The reply was "half a second later you would let go of the bite as your scream in pain because your elbow just got broken."

Discuss.

Who ever told you that has obviously never been bitten by someone that is totally committed. No one is ever going to go ahead and break an elbow when having a chunk removed from a tender portion of their anatomy.
I once watched a fight where one fellow bit the other on his cheek. It exposed his teeth, upper and lower to view. An attempt was made to sew it back in, but for some reason it didn't take and he ended up with a lot of pulling and stretching to close the hole. My face hurts now just thinking about it.
I see you are talking about MMA stuff. Armbar-full mount- stuff like that. They forbid biting I am sure. Just imagine someone taking your back. hugging tight, then getting a mouth full of your back about mid way and to one side where it is super tender. You would be tapping with all four limbs. The last thing you would be thinking about is breaking something. All you would be thinking about is ******!!! Please quite biting me.

[mjw]

I work in a correctional facility so it's something I am always trying to look out for luckily I have never been bit. I look at the head and neck control for when and where the "biting range" might be and keep your body parts away from where the bite can bite....

[IronFist]

I work in a correctional facility so it's something I am always trying to look out for luckily I have never been bit. I look at the head and neck control for when and where the "biting range" might be and keep your body parts away from where the bite can bite....

How often do you have people out of control that you have to restrain?

[GeneChing]

Gene wrote a good piece on this.
http://www.tigerclaw.com/blog/2010/12/biters-vs-fighters/
Thanks for remembering this, wenshu. I was just about to post it myself. ;)


You would still want to break his jaw as soon as possible. Besides hammerfist strikes you would want to practice double-palm- like abrupt head twist strikes to keep biters or grapplers at bay. Why take any chances. Meet grappling with explosive targeted strikes, full power. Head-butt a biter if you have trained to do so.PalmStriker, you couldn't be more wrong. Every jaw is designed with one purpose - to bite. How could you break someone's jaw or do any kind of strike when it's around you without losing your own chunk of flesh? A bite makes a horrible avulsion.


Well, I train for it by default...I work in a Behavioral Health Unit aka Funny Farm and at times we have to restrain assaultive patients, once they've had their hands and feet secured they go right for biting/spitting.

When someone is biting you, instinct tells you to pull away, if you're quick enough you can do this before their teeth have secured your flesh. We advise against this practice because sooner or later they will clamp down and you will end up tearing or ripping your skin. The correct action is to push into the biters mouth, forcing their jaw open, they will lose biting force and perhaps you can engage their gag reflex if for example your hand were caught in their mouth. If its your leg or torso, hopefully you are in a position where you can apply body weight onto your opponent either smothering them or again forcing the jaw open. I have heard this suggested for dog biting attacks as well. Its a great theory but you must react quickly, it will get your 'blood' up as you usually have split seconds to react from either a human or dog biting attack.

Vampires and psycho ex girlfriends are a whole another story...
Spot on, HH. I'm right there with you on this. I've never worked professionally as a psych tech, but I do a lot of volunteer work where I have to do psych restraints. I just came back from a music festival and had to do two. One was a even a biter.

[PalmStriker]

Thanks Gene and everyone for posting Biter prevention tips. My input was for keeping the biters head at a distance. If you are working in a restraint facility you would be bound by purpose for being there. Would not hesitate to use violence to keep an aggressor at arms length. If they get in closer to grapple they will need to protect themselves from being bitten (My teeth are broken up like an old-time hockey players) and losing their eyesight.

[IronFist]

How often do patients just go nuts and you have to restrain them? Are they trying to escape, or just hurt you?

[mjw]

How often do you have people out of control that you have to restrain?

It really depends sometimes you go weeks with out incident sometimes a few in a single day. Really and sadly its a dumping ground for the mentally ill though not all are mental and some are fakers but you never know when escorting a compliant individual at any time they can bug up and act out and I always try to stay very aware of potential bites.

The other day one deatinee claimed to have been bit by another during a fight in a cell and claimed that the one had aids wether thats true or not I still treat all subjects that way and try to keep it professional and hands off as possible because I take home the same pay check every week with or without incidents and it's my goal to go home the same way I came in every day.

[IronFist]

It really depends sometimes you go weeks with out incident sometimes a few in a single day. Really and sadly its a dumping ground for the mentally ill though not all are mental and some are fakers but you never know when escorting a compliant individual at any time they can bug up and act out and I always try to stay very aware of potential bites.

The other day one deatinee claimed to have been bit by another during a fight in a cell and claimed that the one had aids wether thats true or not I still treat all subjects that way and try to keep it professional and hands off as possible because I take home the same pay check every week with or without incidents and it's my goal to go home the same way I came in every day.

People fake mental illness? Why?

[GeneChing]

We had two major physical restraints. One was a biter. No one got bite, but several of us got snapped at.

Keeping distance is a fundamental strategy in any fight. It has to go to grappling for biting to become a fighter. No one leads with a bite, at least, no human does. As for biting your way out of an RNC, if the arm is placed properly under the throat, you can't bite. If someone tries to bite before the arm is placed, using the free hand to push up on the bottom of the nose will make the biter flinch backwards and create an opening to secure proper arm placement. It's a fairly easy technique, even in the heat of battle. Not that we ever use an RNC to restrain a patient.

[taai gihk yahn]

I work w kids w autism, PDD, and a whole range of other "syndromy" things; occasionally u get a biter (I've never had that happen, but I am pretty hyper-aware of the kids who look like they are prone to doing that; I have always taught people to push-in, but you also have to be sure that the kids head can't move back, otherwise they could still hold on! so you need to push in as well as hold the back of the head;

as far as dealing w kids who need to be physically restrained, 99% of the "official" training stuff I've seen is, IMPO, crap, and tends to get the kids riled up even more, because they are perceive that they are being restrained; I have my own approach that has worked 100% on every kid I've used it on, and it typically calms them down as well, because they don't perceive it as being a restraining attempt! basically you get behind them, and use the insides of your upper arms on the sides of their shoulders to contain them, and then you just sit them down - u end up sitting behind them with your inner upper arms on their shoulders and their pelvis between your upper legs; your hands are free, u r using ur weight with a dose of "taiji" listening sensitivity, basically u r like a big wet blanket; they can still move their arms and legs, but their bodies are "stuck" to u and the floor; the only thing u have to watch for is a reverse head but, which u can avoid either by keeping ur head far back, or right up against theirs; of course, this would probably NOT work on an adult, because it's relying on a marked size differential, although I have demonstrated it on the adults I've "trained", and in a lot of cases I was able to control them enough to sit them down (the size differential also makes up for a lack of skill)

the nice thing about this approach is that u can talk to the kid, and most importantly, u r not grabbing them - the BIGGEST mistake I see is people grabbing kids by the wrists to contain them - the kids end up flopping around ike a fish on a line, which is unsafe for them and the restrainer, and it gets them more disorganized / out of their own center - doing the "wet blanket" organizes them and focuses them into their own midline / body mass; it also provides deep calming pressure to the entire back, as opposed to irritating them at the wrists, which generates a fight / flight response;

just my 2¢

[IronFist]

Not that we ever use an RNC to restrain a patient.

Why? Is it against the rules, or just not effective?

[mjw]

People fake mental illness? Why?

It's more laid back than general population and it's easier to manipulate the mentally ill usually I would guess