"Visable power" vs. "real power"

[IronFist]

This is a good article. In fact, I've been distracted over the last few hours reading articles on this site. I'm behind in my work!

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/visible-power-vs-real-power.html


Here is another good article on boxing/MMA/Muay Thai fighting stance vs. old school bare knuckle boxing stance:

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/karate-kamae-or-guard.html


Karate punches vs. boxing punches:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/11/karate-punches-vs-boxing-punches.html

[Hardwork108]

This is a good article. In fact, I've been distracted over the last few hours reading articles on this site. I'm behind in my work!

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/visible-power-vs-real-power.html


Here is another good article on boxing/MMA/Muay Thai fighting stance vs. old school bare knuckle boxing stance:

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/karate-kamae-or-guard.html


Karate punches vs. boxing punches:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/11/karate-punches-vs-boxing-punches.html

Wow, there is a lot of interesting material there. I will save them and read them when I have a little more time.

Thanks for posting.

[IronFist]

Wow, there is a lot of interesting material there. I will save them and read them when I have a little more time.

Thanks for posting.

It is a good site I just found last night.

A similar thing happened to me at tvtropes.org and I literally spent 5 hours there and got nothing done. Holy cow that site is addicting (and brilliant).

[IronFist]

I fixed the typo I made in the thread subject (*visible) but it still displays as "visable" on the main forum thread list.

Whoops.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a good article. In fact, I've been distracted over the last few hours reading articles on this site. I'm behind in my work!

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/visible-power-vs-real-power.html


Here is another good article on boxing/MMA/Muay Thai fighting stance vs. old school bare knuckle boxing stance:

http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/karate-kamae-or-guard.html


Karate punches vs. boxing punches:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/11/karate-punches-vs-boxing-punches.html

Having done BOTH Boxing and Kyokushin, Goju, Shotokan and TKD and as such been exposed to VARIOUS methods of striking I can say this:
There is a reason boxers are considered to be the best punchers around and there is a reason that when Karate went full contact ( even bare knuckle like kyokushin) that the strikes became "more like boxing".
And that reason is simply this:
When you actually HIT something your body will naturally find the best and most effective way to do that, and THAT is the typical boxing method.
THAT SAID, there IS a place for the more "specilaized" methods of delivering strikes.

[lkfmdc]

More than a few Hsing Yi people have expressed the opinion that the mechanics behind their punches are similar to the way western boxers punch

According to more than a few people, CTS included, Hsing Yi people who were serious did in fact punch HARD, very HARD

If you consider that the human body works the same way in China as it does in Europe and America, you have to consider that there is only so many ways to do something and probably even less ways of doing something efficiently

There is much evidence that when you pull the veil of bull**** aside and look at the facts, those that could fight in China in the "old days" fought with the same things and trained the same way as those that can fight now. Today they definitely train BETTER (better knowledge, better equipment, better science, better experience) but you still basically punch, elbow, knee, kick, sweep and wrestle

Again, there is so much crap attached to TMA these days, it is hard for many to see this, but it's out there

[dillman]

More than a few Hsing Yi people have expressed the opinion that the mechanics behind their punches are similar to the way western boxers punch

According to more than a few people, CTS included, Hsing Yi people who were serious did in fact punch HARD, very HARD

If you consider that the human body works the same way in China as it does in Europe and America, you have to consider that there is only so many ways to do something and probably even less ways of doing something efficiently

There is much evidence that when you pull the veil of bull**** aside and look at the facts, those that could fight in China in the "old days" fought with the same things and trained the same way as those that can fight now. Today they definitely train BETTER (better knowledge, better equipment, better science, better experience) but you still basically punch, elbow, knee, kick, sweep and wrestle

Again, there is so much crap attached to TMA these days, it is hard for many to see this, but it's out there

except the west did not develop the concept of qi. this is an extra something that makes the hsing-i punch do more damage. like a needle wrapped in cotton.

[lkfmdc]

except the west did not develop the concept of qi. this is an extra something that makes the hsing-i punch do more damage. like a needle wrapped in cotton.

1. can you prove the hsing-yi punch does more damage?

2. can you prove the extra damage is due to "qi"?

Unless you can do both, it's all talk.

One might even suggest that most evidence points to the opposite of what you say. There are more western boxers knocking people out and doing damage than there are hsing-yi people

[Frost]

what ronin and David said

when you actually want to hit something hard thats hitting you back, and do real damage, you tend to look alot like other people that do this, boxing, CLF, lama, hsingi...of course if all you want to do is look good in static demos against thin air you can look different and unique........:)

[taai gihk yahn]

except the west did not develop the concept of qi.
ah yes, the so-called "west" - a single, lock-step, monolithic entity that works in every way opposite to that other Leviathan, the "east"; :rolleyes:
it's really amazing that people are still utilizing this contrived fiction;
first of, the so-called "west", as you put it, had concepts highly analagous to "qi" for a long time: if you look, for example, at Medieval "physiiology" and medicine, it functioned off of a paradigm very similar to Chinese medicine, that is, based on metaphor; however, once the science of physiology became more relatively objective, the "west" was able to move beyond this paradigm, and as such, become much more accurate in terms of delineating how the body works, and subsequently how to treat it medically; the Chinese used "qi" due to an absence of capacity for relatively objective appraisal of biological, physiological, chemical, electromagnetic etc. phenomena; they utilized an empirical model based on macro-observation, and constructed a pattern-recognition paradigm with predictive capacity that allowed them to diagnose and treat; "qi" was one tool by which they were able to do this, and it worked rather well in a lot of cases; but to believe that it's the "b3st3st" way of conceptualizing things, and that using it in one's martial training methodology confers superior skills (e.g. - doing more damage) than other striking arts, is just blind;


this is an extra something that makes the hsing-i punch do more damage. like a needle wrapped in cotton.
oh please; you make a subjective statement as if it were an objective truth; if you want to do that, you need to provide evidence (again, subjective = personal experience; objective = generalizable phenomenon);
if you want to argue a point, you have to provide evidence; if you want to claim that "qi" makes a hsing-i punch do more damage than a boxers punch, you have to run an experiement; but you can't do that; so you can't make that claim - all you can say is that in your personal experience you have been punched by a boxer and a hsing yi guy, and the hsing yi guys punch damaged you more (if in fact that actually has ever happened to you); of course, we can introduce a 1000 variables into this to demonstrate how other factors may have influenced the outcome - which is why you can't generalize your personal subjective experience;

[lkfmdc]

oh please; you make a subjective statement as if it were an objective truth; if you want to do that, you need to provide evidence

(again, subjective = personal experience; objective = generalizable phenomenon);



you mean,

"1. can you prove the hsing-yi punch does more damage?"




if you want to claim that "qi" makes a hsing-i punch do more damage than a boxers punch, you have to run an experiment;



why, that's exactly what you meant! :D




but you can't do that; so you can't make that claim -



Be careful, or they will call you a troll!




all you can say is that in your personal experience you have been punched by a boxer and a hsing yi guy, and the hsing yi guys punch damaged you more (if in fact that actually has ever happened to you);



and what is sad is that for 99% of these types of posters, they haven't even experienced the "subjective" - they have only been told what to believe

[IronFist]

Guys, the other thread was all about mystic energy, and it got locked because of trolls.

Can we leave it out of this thread?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What am I describing?

It starts from the ground up, where the foot pushes against the ground, driving the leg and body forward, the energy comes up the leg from the ground, and up the body to the striking limb/tool, the hips are rotated to drive the force into the target and the shoulder and arm follow, the hand shoots out and drives through the target, using the "rebound" of the impact on that target to help "pull it back".

[IronFist]

What am I describing?

It starts from the ground up, where the foot pushes against the ground, driving the leg and body forward, the energy comes up the leg from the ground, and up the body to the striking limb/tool, the hips are rotated to drive the force into the target and the shoulder and arm follow, the hand shoots out and drives through the target, using the "rebound" of the impact on that target to help "pull it back".

Body mechanics, chain of muscle tension.

Similar to how a baseball pitcher throws a pitch.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think that the kicking stuff adds up. Over reliance on the snapping kicks is more likely to get you beaten up than using "pushing" kicks.

[lkfmdc]

What am I describing?

It starts from the ground up, where the foot pushes against the ground, driving the leg and body forward, the energy comes up the leg from the ground, and up the body to the striking limb/tool, the hips are rotated to drive the force into the target and the shoulder and arm follow, the hand shoots out and drives through the target, using the "rebound" of the impact on that target to help "pull it back".

are you, gasp, suggesting BODY MECHANICS! :eek:

you troll! :mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Body mechanics, chain of muscle tension.

Similar to how a baseball pitcher throws a pitch.

But what system or MA am I describing?

[lkfmdc]

But what system or MA am I describing?

1) all of them
2) none of them
3) some of them

[IronFist]

I don't think that the kicking stuff adds up. Over reliance on the snapping kicks is more likely to get you beaten up than using "pushing" kicks.

Why's that?

[IronFist]

But what system or MA am I describing?

Oh, I thought it was troll bait for the mystic energy people :o

[Dragonzbane76]

ah yes, the so-called "west" - a single, lock-step, monolithic entity that works in every way opposite to that other Leviathan, the "east";
it's really amazing that people are still utilizing this contrived fiction;
first of, the so-called "west", as you put it, had concepts highly analagous to "qi" for a long time: if you look, for example, at Medieval "physiiology" and medicine, it functioned off of a paradigm very similar to Chinese medicine, that is, based on metaphor; however, once the science of physiology became more relatively objective, the "west" was able to move beyond this paradigm, and as such, become much more accurate in terms of delineating how the body works, and subsequently how to treat it medically; the Chinese used "qi" due to an absence of capacity for relatively objective appraisal of biological, physiological, chemical, electromagnetic etc. phenomena; they utilized an empirical model based on macro-observation, and constructed a pattern-recognition paradigm with predictive capacity that allowed them to diagnose and treat; "qi" was one tool by which they were able to do this, and it worked rather well in a lot of cases; but to believe that it's the "b3st3st" way of conceptualizing things, and that using it in one's martial training methodology confers superior skills (e.g. - doing more damage) than other striking arts, is just blind;

It's funny but the "eastern" mythology tends to be looked at more closely than the "west" in terms of what you described. For some reason, us dam stupid anglos tend to overlook what is right in front of us and go right for someone elses culture and try to hijack it. :p

dark age on up through the Medieval to renaissance europe fighting and tactics tend to be more proficient and cutting edge if compared to some of the eastern theater "orient" and for some reason we will just over look it and believe in the myth of the kung fu shaolin man. don't know my 2 cents though.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why's that?

If people don't respect your power first and foremost, nothing really works. A good fighter won't even fool with someone who comes out pitty patting. They will just march in and bang a pitty-patter out.

[IronFist]

If people don't respect your power first and foremost, nothing really works. A good fighter won't even fool with someone who comes out pitty patting. They will just march in and bang a pitty-patter out.

Are you saying snapping strikes does "pitty-patter" damage?

[IronWeasel]

This article merely describes Yin striking versus Yang striking.

I'm assuming that most CMA students have heard of these, yes?

[YouKnowWho]

respect your power...

When you fight, you should give your opponent a good taste about your punching power and kicking power in the 1st 3 punches and 1st 3 kicks. After you have earned your opponent's respect to your striking power, even you just fake you strike, you can still scare the sh!t out of your opponnet.


This article merely describes Yin striking versus Yang striking.
I don't believe there is such thing as Yin striking. Yin is for defense and Yang is for offense. All offense skills are Yang by definition.

Yin - sticky, yield, deflect, sink, follow, borrow force, ...
Yang - kick, punch, lock, throw, ...

[bawang]

except the west did not develop the concept of qi. this is an extra something that makes the hsing-i punch do more damage. like a needle wrapped in cotton.

nope

xingyi people generate power because they drill half step punching instead of exagerated lunges. they also drill only in their fighting stance.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Are you saying snapping strikes does "pitty-patter" damage?

It can do more than that, but the way that it was being executed in those videos was pretty pitty-pat because the strikes are all quad with not hip or glute involved.

[HumbleWCGuy]

When you fight, you should give your opponent a good taste about your punching power and kicking power in the 1st 3 punches and 1st 3 kicks. After you have earned your opponent's respect to your striking power, even you just fake you strike, you can still scare the sh!t out of your opponnet.



I don't have a set number, but you don't want to go out and hold back or throw B.S. At the pro level there is no doubt that people can K.O. each other so they settle in and use strategy. At the smoker and amateur level people always try to overpower the opponent. The very first thing that you have to do is set a tone that wild haymakers will result in an immediate K.O. of your opponent. Otherwise, it's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nihl43bXxRc&feature=fvst. If you go out there and try to do your rendition of Superfoot Wallace, your opponent won't respect you and will control the fight.

[bawang]

the secret of xingyi is they know their fighting stance.

all the kung fu styles that have problem today hide their fighting stances and fighting theory. someone gets confused and tries to fight in a deep horse stance and chamber their fist, of course hes gonna get raped.

[IronFist]

This article merely describes Yin striking versus Yang striking.

I'm assuming that most CMA students have heard of these, yes?

I've never heard of yin striking before.

[IronFist]

The very first thing that you have to do is set a tone that wild haymakers will result in an immediate K.O. of your opponent. Otherwise, it's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nihl43bXxRc&feature=fvst.

Can you please rephrase?

Looks like the mohawk dude started super aggressively.

[bawang]

I've never heard of yin striking before.

there is no such thing as yin striking.

yin is codeword for defence. yang means offence. it can also mean fighting mindsets, defensive/aggresive, cold/rage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Can you please rephrase?

Looks like the mohawk dude started super aggressively.

A lot of the times at smokers and low level competitions, guys will come out and just throw tons of punches and not give you any space to to do anything that you would define as TCMA. They leave themselves open, but if you don't hit them with hard shots, they will just continue throwing wild shots until you go down, they gas, or you hit them with something substantial.

In low-level fights, when guys get hit hard, they will usually either start backing up or they will start trying to set things up. Either way, you have space so that you can start working all the set-ups and counters that you learn in TCMA. Snapping kicks, back fists, and slap blocks are low percentage against an overly aggressive opponent. Until you hit an opponent with something that they have to respect, you are a punching bag with eyeballs to them.

[omarthefish]

... Snapping kicks, back fists, and slap blocks are low percentage against an overly aggressive opponent. Until you hit an opponent with something that they have to respect, you are a punching bag with eyeballs to them.

um...if it's working, and you are " a punching bag with eyeballs to them", then by definition, it's not "overly" aggressive. It's more like "sufficiently" aggressive.

[HumbleWCGuy]

um...if it's working, and you are " a punching bag with eyeballs to them", then by definition, it's not "overly" aggressive. It's more like "sufficiently" aggressive.

No, because in smokers it is often bad beating worse.

[omarthefish]

What you said makes no sense.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What you said makes no sense.
No, you are just incapable of understanding it apparently.

[IronFist]

A lot of the times at smokers and low level competitions, guys will come out and just throw tons of punches and not give you any space to to do anything that you would define as TCMA. They leave themselves open, but if you don't hit them with hard shots, they will just continue throwing wild shots until you go down, they gas, or you hit them with something substantial.

In low-level fights, when guys get hit hard, they will usually either start backing up or they will start trying to set things up. Either way, you have space so that you can start working all the set-ups and counters that you learn in TCMA. Snapping kicks, back fists, and slap blocks are low percentage against an overly aggressive opponent. Until you hit an opponent with something that they have to respect, you are a punching bag with eyeballs to them.

I've never heard the term "smoker" before. Is that like low level, just random dudes?

I think their technique has merit. A lot of people don't know how to deal with super nonstop aggression, forward movement, and hard punches.

Not that I would do that on high level guys, but I'm saying, random Joe Schmoe who gets into a bar fight is probably going to expect punch/counterpunch fighting, not constant forward movement punch punch punch punch not giving Joe Schmoe a chance to think or react.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've never heard the term "smoker" before. Is that like low level, just random dudes?

I think their technique has merit. A lot of people don't know how to deal with super nonstop aggression, forward movement, and hard punches.

Not that I would do that on high level guys, but I'm saying, random Joe Schmoe who gets into a bar fight is probably going to expect punch/counterpunch fighting, not constant forward movement punch punch punch punch not giving Joe Schmoe a chance to think or react.
Correct, smokers are low-level fights. I would include rinky-dink professional leagues as well. Smokers are a hodge podge of self trainers, mma schools, and TMA guys who want to get their first bit of experience.

There is certainly some merit to just being aggressive at the smoker level. The idea though is that if you want to get beyond that level then you need to also develop a game that is smooth and cam where you are implementing strategy. It's not so bad anymore, but when I was a kid doing this stuff there were of tma guys who were still in that points fighting mode in the ring. They would get run over by Joe "Punches in Bunches" Schmoe. Why? Well part of it was that they would go out there and not hit hard enough to back those guys off.