Philipp Bayer video

[Dave P]

Nice movie of Philipp Bayer and his Italian student Enrico Feretti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcfqvDzkc8s&feature=channel_video_title

[k gledhill]

cool thanks :D

[Sean66]

Inspiring, as usual!

[NelisVingTsun]

Very cool!

[Phil Redmond]

I love his clips.

[CFT]

Love the pole sparring.

But a question for Kev (and others) ...

When Enrico hits the bag, his head seems very forward and down. Almost hunched over. Yet when he chi saus with Philipp his whole frame is dramatically different. Much more upright and in fact seems to tilt his head backwards. Not surprising given who is in front of him and what is coming towards him. But it seems to affect his balance and forward pressure.

[k gledhill]

Love the pole sparring.

But a question for Kev (and others) ...

When Enrico hits the bag, his head seems very forward and down. Almost hunched over. Yet when he chi saus with Philipp his whole frame is dramatically different. Much more upright and in fact seems to tilt his head backwards. Not surprising given who is in front of him and what is coming towards him. But it seems to affect his balance and forward pressure.

..its an endurance drill, so he may have been more upright at the beginning , rather than the 20 minute mark :D Record is held by my si-hing Desmond Spencer 40-45 minutes non stop.
It is really a drill just to keep elbows in and pummeling for endurance of elbow positions, rather than 'impact'. iow we arent training to hit our way out of a position in a similar fashion to the stomach.
There are other bag drills he shows for facing and incorporating strikes with hip/elbow unity for impact force.
Swinging the bag left to right and hitting it on either apex with turning facing strikes. This can also be done from a bong so you train to drop the elbow as you face and hit with the elbow nice and tightly held inwards as you impact...

I do this on thai long bags with front kicks too...I learned many years ago that the bag is your best lesson for making a good punch ... never let me down. My old sifu also showed similar bag work but without the elbow drills as WSL showed PB.

Philipp is very into the 'fighting/fighter ' aspect of VT, endurance, cardio, etc.... he still runs with his dogs for cardio.

Yeah that is some nice calligraphy on the poles. PB showed me all my pole drills, form, relationship of ballistics to bare hands etc...

[Graham H]

Love the pole sparring.

But a question for Kev (and others) ...

When Enrico hits the bag, his head seems very forward and down. Almost hunched over. Yet when he chi saus with Philipp his whole frame is dramatically different. Much more upright and in fact seems to tilt his head backwards. Not surprising given who is in front of him and what is coming towards him. But it seems to affect his balance and forward pressure.

Chee you're making the mistake of over anaylizing video footage. The videos that are put up on YouTube are not instructional videos. They are just people working out, drilling, chi sau etc etc.

As Kev has said Enrico is doing and endurance drill. We get the head down and punch away for as long as we can possibly go for. I was up around the 30 min mark but had to stop due to a back strain. I started again the other night and could only manage 8mins! :D. This drill improves many things including focus, structure and the strength to not quit!

We have many drills that improve many things. We are not "chi sau monsters" and everything is there for a reason. Unfortunately these things can't be explained and taught via video. One has to go and train themselves!

As Kev has also said, Philipp is very strength and cardio orientated. We dont need to cross train. There is enough hard work to do in Ving Tsun. ;)

GH

[CFT]

Nice to know the context. I didn't think I was reading anything into it at all.

I thought the bagwork was "normal" practice whereas you say this is getting towards exhaustion. I just couldn't link up the posture in the drill to the posture in the chi sau.

[Graham H]

I just couldn't link up the posture in the drill to the posture in the chi sau.

You shouldn't be trying to mate!! ;):p

GH

[CFT]

I'd disagree there Graham. You practice the same stance/posture in SNT/CK. The straight punch is the same in SNT/CK. All the movements feed into chi sau and back again. So why is the posture in the punching drill not the same as seen in the forms and chi sau?

I can accept that exhaustion is the answer in this case, not that the 'core' training should not carry between each training method.

[Graham H]

I'd disagree there Graham. You practice the same stance/posture in SNT/CK. The straight punch is the same in SNT/CK. All the movements feed into chi sau and back again. So why is the posture in the punching drill not the same as seen in the forms and chi sau?

I can accept that exhaustion is the answer in this case, not that the 'core' training should not carry between each training method.

Come down and i'll explain!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

GH

[CFT]

One day Graham. I'd look forward to it. But at this point in life, I'm lucky to get my dinner before bedtime!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love Phil's videos, but the missing hand always freaks me out a bit in the beginning.
The man is inspirational.

[Graham H]

I love Phil's videos, but the missing hand always freaks me out a bit in the beginning.
The man is inspirational.

Many times better in the flesh! ;)

GH

[Dave P]

I love Phil's videos, but the missing hand always freaks me out a bit in the beginning.
The man is inspirational.

Wait until you feel the bone hitting your chest :o

[Dave P]

I'd disagree there Graham. You practice the same stance/posture in SNT/CK. The straight punch is the same in SNT/CK. All the movements feed into chi sau and back again. So why is the posture in the punching drill not the same as seen in the forms and chi sau?

I can accept that exhaustion is the answer in this case, not that the 'core' training should not carry between each training method.

With this drill you're not training the straight punch. You are conditioning the elbows and the hips combination (like CK learns us) As the elbows are close to the hips, that is the point where you need to initiate your power from in this excercise. This will strengthen your punching power. Also for the straight punch.
Keep that up as long as possible and you'll definately have punching power. Especially if combine with a lot of long pole training. ;-)

[Hardwork108]

I'd disagree there Graham. You practice the same stance/posture in SNT/CK. The straight punch is the same in SNT/CK. All the movements feed into chi sau and back again. So why is the posture in the punching drill not the same as seen in the forms and chi sau?

I was wondering about the same thing myself. In an art where one is trying to absorb often unusual postures and concepts into muscle memory, why do exercises that will contradict one another, that is, some of the core principles?

That is a question, and not a criticism as each lineage attempts to get to its goals in a different manner. It is that I am using my own training as a benchmark, where your "Wing Chun" posture and principles stay the same during all related exercises, ot give your muscle memory maximum opportunity to absorb all the details.



I can accept that exhaustion is the answer in this case, not that the 'core' training should not carry between each training method.

Speaking only about my training, during exhaustion stages where things like posture and roots would begin to fall apart, sifu would be there to remind you to keep everything together. IMHO, this approach helps ingrain further the correct elements as regards posture, roots, etc. into muscle memory.

[Hardwork108]

With this drill you're not training the straight punch. You are conditioning the elbows and the hips combination (like CK learns us)
That is what was missing from that part of the video. The angle does not show the hips, while the guy is punching the bag.


As the elbows are close to the hips, that is the point where you need to initiate your power from in this excercise. This will strengthen your punching power. Also for the straight punch.
The elbows looked out to me. So again, this is unusual to the way I train, but fair enough if you are getting results.



Keep that up as long as possible and you'll definately have punching power. Especially if combine with a lot of long pole training. ;-)
That makes sense.

[Dave P]

As long as the elbows works their way in while punching, the drill is performed right. In the only 6 secs part of this movie, The elbows maybe look slightly outwards, but the definately seem to generate the force from the hips and work their way in. At the moment of impact, the elbow is not perfectly centered, but that is not neccesary. As said before... the goal is to gain punching power from hips and elbows.

I think, now we're over analyzing... It's a part of the endurance trainig where only 6 secs are caught on film... Anyway. I hope you get my point.

[Graham H]

As long as the elbows works their way in while punching, the drill is performed right. In the only 6 secs part of this movie, The elbows maybe look slightly outwards, but the definately seem to generate the force from the hips and work their way in. At the moment of impact, the elbow is not perfectly centered, but that is not neccesary. As said before... the goal is to gain punching power from hips and elbows.

I think, now we're over analyzing... It's a part of the endurance trainig where only 6 secs are caught on film... Anyway. I hope you get my point.

Hey Dave that's what people do on this forum! Over analyze and make assumptions based on no actual experience. I find it amusing. :D

GH

[Hardwork108]

As long as the elbows works their way in while punching, the drill is performed right.
Again, this may be lineage thing as it is my understanding that the elbows are in the center or they are not. Again, just an observation and nothing more.



In the only 6 secs part of this movie, The elbows maybe look slightly outwards, but the definately seem to generate the force from the hips and work their way in.
Most correct punching in TCMA's will need generated force from the hips.


At the moment of impact, the elbow is not perfectly centered, but that is not neccesary.
That is not necessary because of the way your particular WC lineage practices. I can imagine that others will not see things the same way. When does WC stop being WC and becomes something else? Again, I am not saying anything, but it is good to keep in mind that one change may lead to another and then we are in danger of ending up with something else that is not Wing Chun.


As said before... the goal is to gain punching power from hips and elbows.
Other none WC TCMAs have the same goal.


I think, now we're over analyzing... It's a part of the endurance trainig where only 6 secs are caught on film... Anyway. I hope you get my point.
Again, my point stands in that why not practice endurance exercises that follow the principles of the art strictly so as to help muscle memory absorb the sometimes "unnatural" postures and actions?

[Hardwork108]

Hey Dave that's what people do on this forum! Over analyze and make assumptions based on no actual experience. I find it amusing. :D

GH
One man's honest analysis, is another man's over analysis. I find this amusing, too. ;)

Perhaps, if you had actual experience in my lineage you would see things differently as well. Of course, no strong critiques from me, just enquiries to understand the mindset behind certain exericises.

[Dave P]

Nobody in the world walks around with his elbows centered for the whole day. So you have to get from the outside to the inside, as soon as the hips support the elbow, CK principals apply. This is Wing Chun training , my friend... it's a drill for gaining more punching power, it's not sparring. Over analyzing a 6 sec part of a movie will not give you that understanding... you simply have to, see, try, feel and understand, so move away from your keyboard and mouse, visit Kevin and than get back to me ;-)

[Hardwork108]

Nobody in the world walks around with his elbows centered for the whole day.

I never claimed they did.


So you have to get from the outside to the inside, as soon as the hips support the elbow, CK principals apply.
That is true, it is just that from what I have been exposed the punches end up more central than what I saw on the video. So, from the point of view of my training this kind of "power exercise" will create bad habits, but again, that is my view based on my practice of a different Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun.


This is Wing Chun training , my friend... it's a drill for gaining more punching power, it's not sparring.
Again. We train sticking to the style's principles to help maximize what is absorbed into muscle memory. Also, our power building exercises include extensive Iron Palm training, as well as supplimentary chi kung and other stuff.



Over analyzing a 6 sec part of a movie will not give you that understanding... you simply have to, see, try, feel and understand, so move away from your keyboard and mouse, visit Kevin and than get back to me ;-)

I understand what you are saying, but the 6 second segment is valid enough for me because the exercise itself would take more than 6 seconds to perform. That would presumably include the fact that the elbows were not as aligned as I am used to.

Also, I am not denying that such exercises will help power generation, so no need to prove that to me. It is just I see what you do as different and slightly off mark as regards Wing Chun Central Line principles which would be seen in my lineage as unhelpful as regards the building of the necessary muscle memory in accordance with the distinct and often "unnatural" principles of Wing Chun.

[Dave P]

Visit Kevin and he will explain...