An interesting way to flow... from Germany

[Grumblegeezer]

I've never met Keith Kernspecht, the famous WT master from Germany, although technically I suppose he would be my Si-Hing since we both trained under the same Chinese sifu many years ago. I'd heard a lot about him, but until the last year or two he didn't have much featuring himself on youtube. Now there's a ton of stuff out there and I must say it's different! I find it really interesting. Any thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6wrzIvk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QPN0R3D-_g

and also this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0aA...eature=related

BTW Regarding rank, I think it works like this:

The mostly red with a bit of white Star-Trek shirts = Command Level/Bridge Officer
The mostly white with a bit of red Star Trek shirts = Junior Officer, Security Personell, etc.
White shirt only = expendable extra, probably no speaking lines, may get killed off at any moment...
Black Frock = Mighty Klingon Overlord!

[k gledhill]

I believe the attacker in the videos is saying, ' how about a cuddle?'.

Guys get stupid with applications, end up creating a completely different fighting system with similar name ....applications for every event, I wonder how big the manual of apps is ? example : page 4058 , subsection b paragraph 2 dealing with groper.
1} use rear hands of slt to block butt grab and then anihalate with a bazillion air punches ending with ubiquitous elbow strike [ the presumption being all those punches suxed so had to pull out 'the elbow' !:D].
2} use rear foot stomping triple kick only LT saw in YM last clip of dummy form :D
3} use turning fac sao with tan combo as you perform throwing technique so groper is humiliated , then reach down and throw 8 trillion air punches followed by elbows *{* see # 2}
4} do reaching under bil gee grab of ankles to would be groper and drag him down , then end with 8 trillion air punches and a...? :D

[Grumblegeezer]

Guys get stupid with applications, end up creating a completely different fighting system with similar name ....applications for every event, I wonder how big the manual of apps is ? example : page 4058 , subsection b paragraph 2 dealing with groper....

Not sure I see what you are referencing from those clips. Maybe you're referring to the way Kernspecht's European Wing Tsun Organization teaches? I wouldn't really know about that. Actually, I learned the Chinese system from LT in a semi-private setting here in the States back in the 80s, but am no longer associated with the man. Apparently this is more of a political issue than I realized over in your part of the world. Sorry 'bout that.

I was just interested in the fluid quality of movement demonstrated. I found it surprisingly "yielding" and soft coming from a man with a large frame who, I'm told, was once really buff did a lot of powerlifting.

[anerlich]

That was a demo with a super compliant partner.

The guy might be able to fight, but you couldn't tell either way from the first vid. Haven't watched the rest.

[anerlich]

Second was same as the first. The link for the third is broken.

Kernspecht claimed to have done some wrestling as well, though theres no evidence of such experience in either clip.'

It's easy to look good when the other guy isn't resisting. At all.

[trubblman]

Isnt it easy to remain relaxed in the face of a non threatening, slow speed attack? Try remaining relaxed when the attack comes unexpectedly from someone who looks this guy a 265lb Pittsburgh Steeler linebacker. That is the true test.

[Grumblegeezer]

Isnt it easy to remain relaxed in the face of a non threatening, slow speed attack? Try remaining relaxed when the attack comes unexpectedly from someone who looks this guy a 265lb Pittsburgh Steeler linebacker. That is the true test.

That's a heck of a high standard.... unless you are just as big and bad. The real question is what do you recommend to someone of much smaller size... say 5'8" and 150lbs, when the reality is that no level of skill can totally overcome such physical disparities. Except in the movies... Yes, and demos with compliant partners.

Still, I thought those videos showed a pretty interesting approach. Almost like Tai Chi with more striking. Personally, I'd like to be able to flow like that...even if it was just in drills with cooperative partners!

BTW I'll try to re-post the last clip again... the one where KK looks a bit like a Klingon. Apparently it messed up somehow the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0aADfrBZU&feature=related

[k gledhill]

That's a heck of a high standard.... unless you are just as big and bad. The real question is what do you recommend to someone of much smaller size... say 5'8" and 150lbs, when the reality is that no level of skill can totally overcome such physical disparities. Except in the movies... Yes, and demos with compliant partners.

Still, I thought those videos showed a pretty interesting approach. Almost like Tai Chi with more striking. Personally, I'd like to be able to flow like that...even if it was just in drills with cooperative partners!

BTW I'll try to re-post the last clip again... the one where KK looks a bit like a Klingon. Apparently it messed up somehow the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0aADfrBZU&feature=related

All depends on the situation and how the bigger guy uses or missuses force ....

If force seeks a place to rest on you, but you dont allow it, then it cant be used against you....angling, mobility, timing, distance....and VT ;)

[anerlich]

The third clip reinforced rather than altered my previous judgements.


the one where KK looks a bit like a Klingon.

More like Dracula. Creepy.

[char1ce]

That's a heck of a high standard.... unless you are just as big and bad. The real question is what do you recommend to someone of much smaller size... say 5'8" and 150lbs, when the reality is that no level of skill can totally overcome such physical disparities. Except in the movies... Yes, and demos with compliant partners.

Still, I thought those videos showed a pretty interesting approach. Almost like Tai Chi with more striking. Personally, I'd like to be able to flow like that...even if it was just in drills with cooperative partners!

BTW I'll try to re-post the last clip again... the one where KK looks a bit like a Klingon. Apparently it messed up somehow the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0aADfrBZU&feature=related

Hi there, just watched above clip , leaning forward, leaning back ,throwing away wc range for elbows, weak chops,lifting elbows for no reason, none of it makes much sense.You want to flow like that 'even if it was just in drills with cooperative partners' well thats how kernspecht does it, none of those subserviants are giving him anything back. Pure fantasy foo.

[k gledhill]

Hi there, just watched above clip , leaning forward, leaning back ,throwing away wc range for elbows, weak chops,lifting elbows for no reason, none of it makes much sense.You want to flow like that 'even if it was just in drills with cooperative partners' well thats how kernspecht does it, none of those subserviants are giving him anything back. Pure fantasy foo.

Hmmm, good eye char1ce. More diplomatic than my deleted its **** post :)

[Grumblegeezer]

Hmmm, good eye char1ce. More diplomatic than my deleted its **** post :)

Yeah, what happened to those posts, anyway? Did they get moderated into oblivion? Oh well...

Addressing what char1ce said about movements made for "no reason" It looked to me like KKs movement was absolutely for a reason, ie in response to his partner's force...that is to say an exercise in "going with the flow". At least that's my take on it. The only way to truly know is to feel his energy for yourself, and as I said , I've never met the man. I have met some of his former students and they tended to be good.

As far as the "weak" chops go, I've personally found that very soft, heavy downward "chopping" motion (as found in the Biu Tze form) to be very strong. KK has not been generally faulted for weakiness or for producing wimpy students. I've worked with Emin, for example, and he is not weak!

[k gledhill]

Pamela has a strong chop, and she does wt , you can tell by the signature elbow after 8 million punches , er ...what was I saying ..? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erNh2LwhIEk&feature=related

[anerlich]

It looked to me like KKs movement was absolutely for a reason, ie in response to his partner's force.

His partners gave him no force, so I don't know how you work that one out.


KK has not been generally faulted for weakiness or for producing wimpy students.

Arguable, but the students in the vid all acted with extreme wimpiness.

[trubblman]

That's a heck of a high standard.

It is indeed a high standard but it is also reality where attackers are not trying to just tickle you. I am just pointing out that it is easier to be relaxed when the training is non threatening as in the videos. Probably even a day one newbie can accomplish that.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I have trained with Keith Kernspecht while I was in Germany. While this was many years ago I can assure you that he was very powerful yet soft in his approach. I remember in particular during a winter visit to the castle I slipped off the road and put my car into a ditch. I had a 1982 Ford EXP. Keith actually lifted the rear end of my car out of the ditch. Now I realize that this is not the same as lifting the front, with the engine, but I was impressed. Then again, perhaps I am easily impressed.

KK did do a stint as a PRO Wrestler prior to doing WT and also did another version of WC prior to training WT. In addition to that he was also a powerlifter, though I do not think it was on a high or pro level, I could be wrong though.

My point is that, unless there has been a dramatic change in his physique, he is most likely a lot stronger than most of those posting on this board. I can also say that he did not use or rely on strength when doing Chi Sau. I found this to be one of the scariest experiences as I remember thinking this guy does not need WT. I was also awed by the ovious hard work he put into learning to be soft and apply his force without relying on brute strength. As a matter of fact the initial stages of training was learning how to "get rid of our force".

KK is listed as one of my Sifu, along with Allan Fong, on my Primary Level Certification.

I have also had the opportunity to train with and touch hands with several different lineages of WC so I do have something to compare him with. I am also no longer affiliated with his organization and have not been for many years so I have no stake in promoting him or his approach.

My only point in posting is to state my experience which leads me to believe that Keith is quite capable of dealing with a non-compliant partner\opponent. What was in the video are demos and I am not sure exactly what the end result was desired to be. Although, I would hazard a guess and suggest it was more for marketting than for actual application, but that is my opinion and may be off base.

[k gledhill]

Just to clarify, Im not just slinging **** either, I have been to several WT schools in Germany when they where secretly defecting from Leung Ting, after finding out he was a phony years back. I helped give seminars in east german 'massive' Gym 'hangars' with at least a 200-300 students who where the worst standard I have ever seen.

mcdojo is a nice way of describing guys leaning away from a target while also trying to hit it :confused: leaning backwards turning away while trying to reach with straight arms forwards :D yeah...so i walked around and helped so they could reach then showed them they couldnt make air hurt the attacker , no matter how hard they hit the space between them :D:D

At another school in Germany I saw similar . I saw also the 'applications' :D and hierarchy of arse kissing $ making going on. Like secret curtains of levels :rolleyes:.

So if I seem a bit harsh its not becasue I dislike KK I have just seen the reality of the curriculum .

[Graham H]

Many of PB's students are from the LT lineage. I have been shown some things and also viewed "secret high level technician" video footage! Eye opening stuff! Maybe KK can take up working for roadside assistance instead!!! Mind you saying that if you can sell s**t for 80 million euro then one are one clever SOAB!! lmao

GH

[duende]

That is some of the goofiest sh1t I've ever seen!

Guess they don't have head butt's in Germany.

Wow! Truly bizarre.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

As to the effectiveness of what I was taught while in WT all I will say is this:

I found my training to be of aide when I worked as a Correctional Officer, Philadelphia Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philly. I won't include my time as a PA State Trooper since by that time I had begun training with Sifu Chow.

Seeing some of the comments of those who feel they have found the "Holy Grail" of WC and that their approach is the best or real deal makes me smile.

Reminds me of a school I visited which had opened in Upper Darby just outside of Philadelphia. I really went to check out the Kali more than anything else but the instructor was a Wing Chun guy, I won't mention the lineage. Anyhow he is working out with his students and sees me standing there and comes over and starts talking to me about Wing Chun and what he is doing. During the conversation, without even knowing me or my background, he continuously bashes WT saying how ineffective it is and totally wrong. He then goes on to say how he regularily beats up on the WT guys and other things along those lines.

He thens asks me if I have any background and I reply; "Yes I am one of Leung Tings Instructors in WT". He quickly excused himself and went back to teaching class :D

I never did get to see the Kali guy which was a shame since I was training Pekiti Tirisia also at the time. Although I did have a school for a short time with a Sayoc Kali Guy.

Now I am not saying that WT was the end all be all of WC/VT/WT or that it is the best system out there. I will say that often those who bash others approaches are sometimes more filled with hot air than skill. Not saying anyone in particular just making an observation. Drinking the Kool Aide is the same no matter where it springs from. ;)

[k gledhill]

Hello,

As to the effectiveness of what I was taught while in WT all I will say is this:

I found my training to be of aide when I worked as a Correctional Officer, Philadelphia Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philly. I won't include my time as a PA State Trooper since by that time I had begun training with Sifu Chow.

Seeing some of the comments of those who feel they have found the "Holy Grail" of WC and that their approach is the best or real deal makes me smile.

Reminds me of a school I visited which had opened in Upper Darby just outside of Philadelphia. I really went to check out the Kali more than anything else but the instructor was a Wing Chun guy, I won't mention the lineage. Anyhow he is working out with his students and sees me standing there and comes over and starts talking to me about Wing Chun and what he is doing. During the conversation, without even knowing me or my background, he continuously bashes WT saying how ineffective it is and totally wrong. He then goes on to say how he regularily beats up on the WT guys and other things along those lines.

He thens asks me if I have any background and I reply; "Yes I am one of Leung Tings Instructors in WT". He quickly excused himself and went back to teaching class :D

I never did get to see the Kali guy which was a shame since I was training Pekiti Tirisia also at the time. Although I did have a school for a short time with a Sayoc Kali Guy.

Now I am not saying that WT was the end all be all of WC/VT/WT or that it is the best system out there. I will say that often those who bash others approaches are sometimes more filled with hot air than skill. Not saying anyone in particular just making an observation. Drinking the Kool Aide is the same no matter where it springs from. ;)


My koolaid stand awaits.....; ) your still invited.

[Sihing73]

My koolaid stand awaits.....; ) your still invited.

Kevin,

If and when I ever back up North I would welcome the opportunity to meet, have lunch, whatever. I am sure we would get along fine.

However, I have little reason to travel up North at the moment. My kids do not want to see their mom so I have little motivation. I had planned on coming up that way around Thanksgiving and if I do I will let you know. If I do come up I will be seeing Phil so perhaps we can combine the visit and all get together at the same time.

By the way I prefer my kool aid to be Cherry Flavored. ;)

[duende]

Hello,

As to the effectiveness of what I was taught while in WT all I will say is this:

I found my training to be of aide when I worked as a Correctional Officer, Philadelphia Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philly. I won't include my time as a PA State Trooper since by that time I had begun training with Sifu Chow.

Seeing some of the comments of those who feel they have found the "Holy Grail" of WC and that their approach is the best or real deal makes me smile.

Reminds me of a school I visited which had opened in Upper Darby just outside of Philadelphia. I really went to check out the Kali more than anything else but the instructor was a Wing Chun guy, I won't mention the lineage. Anyhow he is working out with his students and sees me standing there and comes over and starts talking to me about Wing Chun and what he is doing. During the conversation, without even knowing me or my background, he continuously bashes WT saying how ineffective it is and totally wrong. He then goes on to say how he regularily beats up on the WT guys and other things along those lines.

He thens asks me if I have any background and I reply; "Yes I am one of Leung Tings Instructors in WT". He quickly excused himself and went back to teaching class :D

I never did get to see the Kali guy which was a shame since I was training Pekiti Tirisia also at the time. Although I did have a school for a short time with a Sayoc Kali Guy.

Now I am not saying that WT was the end all be all of WC/VT/WT or that it is the best system out there. I will say that often those who bash others approaches are sometimes more filled with hot air than skill. Not saying anyone in particular just making an observation. Drinking the Kool Aide is the same no matter where it springs from. ;)

For the record...

I'm not trying to bash anybody. Those video's are F'in freaky! Lineage has nothing to do with it.

I've trained and worked out with numerous people from the VT organization. And while we don't agree on few things... nothing remotely resembled the vulcan mind meld chi present here.

[Vajramusti]

For the record...

I'm not trying to bash anybody. Those video's are F'in freaky! Lineage has nothing to do with it.

I've trained and worked out with numerous people from the VT organization. And while we don't agree on few things... nothing remotely resembled the vulcan mind meld chi present here.
----------------------------------------------------

KK is WT not VT.

joy

[Vajramusti]

KK used to use more muscle... nowadays he seems to have become more soft... except for that- I don't have an idea of the point of the demo.Maybe his students can explain?

joy chaudhuri

[jesper]

Its been around 10 years since I last met KK. I will say though that he liked to goof around when he chi sao with you, but nevertheless you were hard pressed to hit him. Stupid ******* :D

Back in 85 when I started WT he was really hard on us when he came to Denmark.
Once every 3 month or so he would come to grade us. That took a weekend with 3 hour training on fridays and 6 hours on saturday and sunday. It was a rare grading when we didnt go home full of bruises and ****.
Now wether that was because scandinavia was generally more combat oriented I dont know but I remember first time I trained outside of Denmark and the others didnt wear protective gear to regular training I was a little hmm...
Also at that time I thought that fight clubs was universal in WT, I was wrong again.

Ah well that was many years ago, things may have changed alot