Tru-2-Form Sparring

[mantid1]

Just recently heard about this new division at a Texas tournament.

Guy talked about a scorpion, monkey...mantis....

They dont care who won or lost just that you you "looked" like your style when you sparred. I am assuming it was light or no contact.....

The CMA just continues to lose credibility.

tournaments are a sore spot for me these these days........students come to me and want to pay $100 to compete at a tournament for the "experience".....what? you come to class two times a week and want to compete for the "experience"...you compete to win....and you better train hard everyday for months before the tournament.

All these different divisions....come on...."now calling the Green uniform with one read shoe, white sash, ear ring in left ear, junior, female, scorpion division". give me a break

If you get first place in a tournament with three people in the division....that was no great accomlishment....Im sorry.

I had a student who had to have paid $200 with all of the divisions....got grand champion...and was very proud. Probably competed in five divisions with the biggest having 4 competitors....WOW that was awesome!....NOT.

Oh yeah.....this particular student couldnt afford the $25 the next month for an extra class I offered.....but wanted to go to a tournament the next month.

[mooyingmantis]

Dave,
Tournament prices are way out of hand these days. I remember my students paying about $25 to compete back in the 80s. :) But "times, they are a changin'"

[yu shan]

This sounds like a Shaolin-Do tournament to me. ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Seems like when someone wants to make a few quick bucks they either hold a ternement or a siminar of some sort. It is absolutely shameful.

[mooyingmantis]

In defense of those who sponsor tournaments, few barely break even, if they don't lose money. Local tournaments are not the cash cow most peeps imagine them to be.

Trophies/medals are quite expensive. Renting a hall is also very expensive. Most tournaments that I have judged at also provide lunch of some kind for all the judges, scorekeepers, etc..

Providing quality instructors for the seminars after the tournaments is also expensive. Some instructors act like divas. They are often unwilling to judge, expect nice accommodations and meals while they are in town and will not attend if members of other families of the same style are in attendance.

If you think you will get rich sponsoring a tournament, try it and get back with me when you are driving your new Mercedes-Benz. Though I won't hold my breath waiting for you to call. :)

Talk to Ginosifu if you really want to know what hosting a tournament is like.

[GeneChing]

This discussion began on our Legends of Kung Fu 2011 thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1119680#post1119680). With this article, it surely needs its own thread as I'm confident it will stimulate a lively discussion. ;)


True-2-Form Sparring is making history (http://www.examiner.com/tai-chi-in-national/true-2-form-sparring-is-making-history?CID=examiner_alerts_article)
Violet Li, Tai Chi Examiner
August 8, 2011

Many Tai Chi practitioners are surprised when they see a Push Hands tournament. To them, a Push Hands competition has little resemblance to the art they practice. The same comment can also be heard about an external martial arts sparring. With protective gear and heavy gloves, it is extremely difficult for contestants to apply the sophisticated fine maneuvering techniques like Chin Na. Many of the Push Hands, sparring and San Shou tournaments are about punching, shoving, kicking and dragging the opponent down. Don’t get me wrong, those tournaments have their own merits too, and the U.S. is not the only country having fights like that.

Since true traditional Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) techniques cannot be fully utilized during these types of tournaments, people wonder about the true usefulness of CMA in terms of real fighting. Is CMA just cool looking in demonstrations and movies while possess little application? The internal martial arts, especially Tai Chi, suffer tremendously from this type of misperception.

History has been forgotten; actually CMA was designed to build empires, to protect villages, and to defend oneself. After centuries of re-invention and improvements, CMA has become extremely profound and complicated. It is not easy to learn; nevertheless, they can be powerful and deadly once a practitioner acquires the skills. But to adapt to the tournament rules, martial art schools across the nation change how martial arts are taught. Fighters are trained with a modified curriculum. With this, martial art connoisseurs have a genuine concern that the arts have been watered down and gradually their principles and techniques will be lost.

Master Christophe Clarke has studied the internal arts from world-renowned masters in China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, and the U.S. He was a champion in many international competitions. He worked as a consultant for the Sports Ministry in the former USSR. He worked for Dan Reeves with the Denver Broncos on coordination and visualization techniques. He also worked with the FBI to teach their SWAT team high-level martial arts techniques. He has established himself as a world respected teacher. He also starred in five martial arts action films.

His passion for CMA runs deep. This year, with his leadership and volunteering effort from many others, Legends of Kung Fu & Taiji Legacy World Martial Arts Championship agreed to host a True-2-Form (or True-to-form) Sparring division. 19 people participated in the event. A competitor is judged not only by his strikes against the opponent but also by how true he is to his form. Master Clarke explains that this format is to explore the ability to use and apply one’s own martial art system in a light, continuous sparring match. The reasoning is that Taekwondo and Judo practitioners all fight with their own skills and CMA should be no different.

Each True-2-Form Sparring match requires each contestant to do a short demo of her style before sparring. Safety gear is optional. Rules of Engagement are:

A competitor must be able to deliver his techniques with speed, timing and placement, executing them with control and accuracy. Force is not the key to success.
The referee has total control over the match, directing the pace and assuring safety, while allowing the 3-minute freestyle match to take place. 4 experienced corner judges, look at the competitors every move, taking mental and written notes, and making a decision on the winner.
Safety is the key. If a competitor shows overly aggressive behavior or poor sportsmanship, he will be cautioned once. A second time will result in disqualification.
Beginning and Intermediate divisions have some restrictions with little to no head contact, sweeps (iron broom), ortakedowns.
Advanced division allows light contact to the head, excessive contact and poor sportsmanship will not be tolerated. Competitors must fight with integrity.

Choy Lay Fut Grandmaster Fred Spencer of California was the head judge, Side judges were Master Al-Waalee Muhammed of Texas of Bagua and Hsing I, Master Stan Johnson of Texas of Bagua, Master Raymond Fogg of Texas of Wah Lum Preying Mantis, Master George Giatrakis of Texas of Choy Lee Fut, and Master Steve Christopherson of Texas of Scorpion Kung Fu. Master Clarke was the referee.

It was quite interesting to watch the matches of Scorpion versus Monkey, Five Animal versus Bagua, etc. Spectators cheered constantly during the matches. Most of the contestants had never participated in sparring competition before; they felt that True-2-Form Sparring as much more meaningful. Some senior instructors like David Vidato of Oklahoma, joined the matches. Simon Vixathep of Baton Rouge, LA practioner of martial arts for 21 years, won an advanced division title with his Monkey techniques. Camdida Aguilar of Carrollton, TX, is a 23-year-old lady who has studied Choy Lay Fut for almost four years to lose weight. She was the only female adult fighter. She was not afraid to be hit by bigger and taller men. She fought like a champion and won the second place in the advanced Lightweight Division. Of course, this probably would not happen in other types of Sparring. In True-2-Form, all male competitors were very conscientious. Master Clarke contributed this to their training in CMA, which they learn how to respect women and they will not take advantage of their size nor physical strength to knock out any female competitor. Candida actually won with her technical skills and not by her physical brute force. You can see a fight between a Monkey and Five Animals on the left-hand-side video. For more of the exciting sparrings, you can visit Master Gohring's website www.youtube.com/mastergohring .

The winners of this first True-2-Form competition are:

Kids 7 & under: Jaidynne Young (1st)
Kids 8 -11: Kimberly Birge (1st) and Ty Roberts (2nd)
Advanced Lightweight: Simon Vixathep (1st), Camdida Aguilar (2nd), John Piper (3rd), David Vidato (3rd), and Brenden Connor (3rd)
Advance Heavyweight: Dallas Horgeshimer (1st), Kevin Chin (2nd) and Joshua Masseo (3rd)

Since the Dallas event, there have been vivid discussions within the martial arts community. A few have some reservations toward it. Master Clarke acknowledges that this new format is a work-in-progress. As more tournaments are held, rules will be adjusted. Practitioners will receive proper training and be more effectively applying their skills in fighting. With the success of the Dallas tournament, the True-2-Form Sparring has proven itself to be a viable format. As Judge Steve Christopherson commented, this was the best thing that ever happened in CMA. We are excited to see history in the making.

[MasterKiller]

So instead of people really fighting, they pretend to fight like they are in movie.

Yay for Kung Fu!

[lkfmdc]

So instead of people really fighting, they pretend to fight like they are in movie.

Yay for Kung Fu!

I swear I didn't pay him to say that

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0QbIlXlNDQ&feature=channel_video_title


LOL

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0QbIlXlNDQ&feature=channel_video_title



students are really innocents, and we shouldn't make fun of them, but that was horrible

and did the announcer really say "this is the highest level of kung fu" :eek:

[mooyingmantis]

Even in pretend sparring, Mantis reigns supreme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOO5vIjED-8&feature=relmfu

[David Jamieson]

http://www.operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n129753_I_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore .jpg

[wenshu]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2010/10/suicideb.gif

[lkfmdc]

http://www.operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n129753_I_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore .jpg

I agree with Jamieson, truly a bad sign

[wenshu]

waitagod****minute

wasn't this the step guy?

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/mastergohring#p/search/3/tMX8DAW7YyQ

[bawang]

are those guys from different schools or all gohrings students?

[YouKnowWho]

Was that used to be the Taiji Legacy in Dallas? I haven't been there for the past 2 years. Didn't know something like this just started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOO5vIjED-8&feature=relmfu

[ginosifu]

waitagod****minute

wasn't this the step guy?

Yep sure is

ginosifu - STEP !

[wenshu]

Maybe I should have paid more attention. Gohring is just uploading the videos and didn't create the format, if that's what we are calling it.

best get steppin

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/mastergohring#p/search/3/tMX8DAW7YyQ

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/youwin_this_round.jpg?w=497&h=436

[bawang]

watching these videos is sending me into a boiling rage.

[lkfmdc]

watching these videos, I demand the entire forum apologize to me, NOW! :mad:

[bawang]

i will avenge you one day kung fu. they will pay. they will all pay.


how come those texans sound like yankees?

[David Jamieson]

i will avenge you one day kung fu. they will pay. they will all pay.


how come those texans sound like yankees?

Go to Boston. Go now.
Then, New York and Jersey.
Finally, Maine.

That's yankees.

them texas folk sound like texas folk.

[GeneChing]

Christophe spoke to me yesterday about this. He says he has some financial backing and that he might advertise in our magazine. We always welcome new advertisers (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/adrates.php).

[lkfmdc]

Christophe spoke to me yesterday about this. He says he has some financial backing and that he might advertise in our magazine. We always welcome new advertisers (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/adrates.php).

completely clear :D

[bawang]

why dont you advertise in gene chings magazine david ross

then you spread honor everywhere into peoples hearts

[lkfmdc]

We always welcome new advertisers


why dont you advertise in gene chings magazine david ross



I have a new event called "Mongolian Cluster ****ing" and it will be my honor to advertise it in the kung fu magazine of Mr Gene Ching

[GeneChing]

Show me the money, Dave, show me the money. :D

[YouKnowWho]

Full contact fighting is not for everyone. Trying to low the standard so everybody can participate is like to make Taiji into "health only", it will not be good for the future of the TCMA.

[lkfmdc]

Show me the money, Dave, show me the money. :D

I have a lot of money sitting around lately, I'd love to see a huge add in your magazine that reads "LKFMDC present the largest Mongolian Cluster **** in US history"

Don't temp me :p

[lkfmdc]

Full contact fighting is not for everyone. Trying to low the standard so everybody can participate is like to make Taiji into "health only", it will not be good for the future of the TCMA.

One would hope that no one doing this competition thinks they are actually fighting, but history sort of already tells us some of them DO think they are :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

It's like making Chinese wrestling into Taiji push hands. It's going backward instead of going forward. Sometime fake confidence is worse than no confidence at all.

[lkfmdc]

It's like making Chinese wrestling into Taiji push hands.



people who do this must look at push hands and scream "oh the humanity! stop the carnage! STOP!"

:D

[Ray Pina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0QbIlXlNDQ&feature=channel_video_title


LOL


I would love to take LSD and watch this from the sidelines... I actually don't need LSD and it's still out of this world hilarious.

[lkfmdc]

I would love to take LSD and watch this from the sidelines... I actually don't need LSD



nope, it is it's own LSD

and somone on youtube actually said "this is the greatest" :eek:

[Snipsky]

watching these videos, I demand the entire forum apologize to me, NOW!

Why????......:confused:

[lkfmdc]

Why????......:confused:

why should you all apologize, because you've all been telling me kung fu is fine and dandy and talking about how everyone is sparring and training for real AND LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT IT!!!! WAIT! DON'T LOOK! HIDE YOUR EYES! RUN RUN RUN

[Ray Pina]

Even in pretend sparring, Mantis reigns supreme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOO5vIjED-8&feature=relmfu


The heavy guy had some decent jamming and sweeps... but he was using his weight to walk in because he didn't have to worry about something as basic as a real jab or a front kick that could bend him over. Light slappy movements with no intention prevent reality to appear.

Aside from, "Why not just fight to find out?" and "can you do this against non preprogrammed puppet-like robots?" sits "How do you put those clothes on and dance around like that as a grown man, having invisible Jedi combat with the air in front of a crowd of people?"

To address the spirit of the article: It is an embarrassment to wear ancient garb and then represent the culmination of a history of vast warriors with such a pu$$y display. It's that simple.

Lastly, China's history of being invaded and ruled by foreigners could make one call into question the methods that have been romanticized. It wasn't a recession that closed the original Shaolin Temple.

[Ray Pina]

... I have to admit. That was so funny I watched it again for pure enjoyment:)


Maybe train like that the first six months if you have to (and you don't and shouldn't). But my God, keep it behind closed doors. Hush. Hush.... like fat girls and mopeds. No one needs to know.

[lkfmdc]

I put a link on my facebook account, in like 1 minute I have like 16 replies :D

[SanShou Guru]

As someone who won national titles in both Push Hands and San Shou this is beyond sad. Promoting this and letting San Shou die is inexcusable.

[bawang]

gohring has to be a sociopath. no human with a conscience can do this.

[lkfmdc]

as someone who won national titles in both push hands and san shou this is beyond sad. Promoting this and letting san shou die is inexcusable.

amen brother! Preach preach!

[Snipsky]

why should you all apologize, because you've all been telling me kung fu is fine and dandy and talking about how everyone is sparring and training for real AND LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT IT!!!! WAIT! DON'T LOOK! HIDE YOUR EYES! RUN RUN RUN

When i saw that video, i was busy looking for a place to toss my lunch. sorry, thats not gung fu.

[taai gihk yahn]

my comment from Dave's FB link:

wow. just wow.

[lkfmdc]

this must be the "REAL KUNG FU" that I've never seen....

so glad now I'd never seen it before, got over 4 decades of joy before having to see this

[GeneChing]

This is all fun and games until Christophe calls me again. He was lurking here earlier.

[lkfmdc]

This is all fun and games until Christophe calls me again. He was lurking here earlier.

If he doesn't like criticism he could always not put it on youtube...

[taai gihk yahn]

why there is rioting in London;

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ur_Olvq21U

Don't worry, it gets worse.

[lkfmdc]

why there is rioting in London;

+1 :D

best comment yet

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ur_Olvq21U

Don't worry, it gets worse.

he he he - her name is Grabhorn, he he he...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Go to Boston. Go now.
Then, New York and Jersey.
Finally, Maine.

That's yankees.

them texas folk sound like texas folk.

No, they probably were yankees. We have an influx of about 150,000 yankees a year. Have had now for many years. I live in a small town just east of Dallas, and you can ask all you meet and you will not find many people born here. Most are from the northeast or California.

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzz4Y43P0so&feature=relmfu

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzz4Y43P0so&feature=relmfu

ah yes, no.2 of the farcical pugilism(sic) series.... seriously, that's what it was called

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0QbIlXlNDQ&feature=channel_video_title


LOL

light tapping without full force or full engagment

light elbow, light knee, light kick, light tap/block--

play fight,

it is like play with a moving dummie instead of a fixed non moving wooden dummie

--

everything in context as pointed out in the other thread.

---

[-N-]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/facepalm-buddha.jpg

[Yum Cha]

I have a new event called "Mongolian Cluster ****ing" and it will be my honor to advertise it in the kung fu magazine of Mr Gene Ching

I think I've already seen the video...

[-N-]

Someone please post pics of nekkid wimmins to this thread.

[IronFist]

Why are they saying "step" at the end of each move?

Also, I think just seeing those sparring (?) vids actually made me a worse fighter.

[MasterKiller]

Why are they saying "step" at the end of each move?

Also, I think just seeing those sparring (?) vids actually made me a worse fighter.

It's pathetic.

I'd like to see the guys pushing this format doing some "sparring" in their style.

[Yum Cha]

So, what was the deal, you couldn't really hit anybody?

[TenTigers]

Why are they saying "step" at the end of each move?

go to ghoring's youtube....step

[SPJ]

it is just like a pill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDKGWaCglRM&ob=av3n

:)

[pazman]

When is Christophe gonna come on and explain himself?

Here's a video of him talking, to pass the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUib86bREx4&feature=related

:(

[B.Tunks]

disgusting.

[Hardwork108]

I came in late into this threat, but this is just pure and unadulterated BAD! :eek:

[ginosifu]

This is along the same lines as Eric_H and his "Calling BS when you see it". There is nothing we can do about this. The only thing we can do is try to promote what we think is proper kung fu and kung fu sparring.

Hopefully if we get up off our lazy as$es and do something about it we can have our own competition sparring rules. Without promotion of our own feeling of what kung fu should be, they will take over.

So... get up off your lazy as$ - STEP

and quit your complaining - STEP

Do something about it - STEP

ginosifu - STEP

[Violent Designs]

I coughed.

[Ray Pina]

There's not much that could be done.

These are grown men wearing ridiculous garb who think they're upholding a warrior tradition without so much as breaking a sweat or getting a slight bloody nose... almost all of the kung fu I have witnessed is not much unlike this.

A martial art tournament where no one really gets hit? Who would waste their time even participating in something like that....... total pu$$ies!Wackadoos! Losers! Misfits!

However, everyone is so quick now to label this so bad. This is an entire bulletin board (how many users?) devoted to CMA.... where is the good footage? These conversations go on back and forth everyday.... anyone training correctly should be able to use their cell phone to snap some video footage at class to show people they're training realisticly. The footage I posted of Taoist Knights students.... that shouldn't be special. That's minimum. In fact, that itself was below par but at least in the right direction.

Kung Fu is not dying. It's long time dead already. It's Ice Capades without the ice.

[lkfmdc]

When is Christophe gonna come on and explain himself?



http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108240&page=3




Yes I thought it was a good idea, that's why I did it! The reason why is that when you watch kung fu forms and kung fu weapons you can clearly see the techniques in the movement. Now when it comes to the fighting, none of what he/she did in their forms exists in most kung fu practitioners self defense. Let it be known there's a few out there that's doing it. The point is, not enough.

On the first video posted, I made some comments addressing an all Chinese audience that could be misunderstood and taken the wrong way. But I would like to own my mistake with my wording. Yes, I'm a patriot of Chinese martial arts but a brother to all martial artists! We all know that martial arts is like a tree. One seed and we all come from it. On the tree, there's many branches and on each branch, there's many leaves.

I respect all branches and have dabbled with a little of all and have chosen the internal path in Tai Chi. That is where I knew I could grow the most. The system that meets our needs or relates to our personalities is the one that we chose. No particular system is better than the other, it's all part of the tree. Which makes us all one unit. This is why one of the two statemenst I made was very ignorant and I'm calling myself on it. It was disrespectful and I didn't mean it in the way it sounded.

I made a comment that I regret in its contents referring to some players in the MMA as being cavemen. The way that came across was definitely wrong and I truly apologize. I totally respect the gladiators of the cage, no doubt about it! There's some classy guys that represent the MMA but unfortunately there's a large portion of the practitioners that are giving it a bad name.

The police today have to arm themselves with martial arts as well as with stronger fire arms because they have to protect themselves against criminals which the martial arts is being openly taught to now. In the past, before you could even learn such techniques, you had to be screened and go through years of character development. Today, you have enough money, you walk into any place and learn some of the most deadly techniques without any real time in martial discipline and control. The code... honor, respect, integrity, brotherhood, family.

In all martial arts we have a responsibility to maintian its true core and values. And when it comes to chinese martial arts, I had an opinion that some of the values were not being practiced and had been lost, most noticeably in the fighting department of the CMA. When you see Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Thai boxing and many other styles of martial arts, they stay true to form. CMA branch of martial arts should do the same. This is the point. Do these techniques work or are they a waste of time?

CMA is not a waste of time. But the practitioner would need to practice to be efficient through trial and error, just like the other styles. I'm not saying there's people in Chinese kung fu that can't use their systems, but the truth of it is, again I say, there's not enough!

The MMA and UFC make jokes about kung fu and you've heard them. I'm not going to make jokes about them because I somewhat agree. I don't believe they mean it in any real way of disrespect. I think it taunts and lights a fire under the asses of the so called kung fu fighters to simply ask themselves 'why do I need to use kickboxing as my fighting style when I supposedly do kung fu? I should just train in kickboxing'. Get it?

How many martial art practitioners does it take to put in a light bulb? 100... one to put it in and 99 to say they could have done it so much better! lol Remember, the one that put in the light bulb, is the first to be seen and becomes the target. While the others can hide in the shadows and throw stones and find everything wrong with the way the bulb was put in.

Everyone knows that this is the truth. The suggestion is, lets not sit on the sidelines, let's do something to better the individual situations. Anybody can criticize. Is it possible for us to work together to improve the whole martial art arena and keep it clean? I'm practicing this myself. Sometimes filth comes out of my mouth and I sound fricking ignorant and I don't like it. Martial arts made me a better person than this and I have to watch what I say and do and own my BS. This is what martial arts has taught me. Call myself out before someone else does.

I'm sorry that this is so long winded but I'm sure after people view the video there will be a lot of things that come up and I thought I would address them all in just one breath. LOL

Tru2form: I knew that this would be somewhat funny, hilarious, hokey and stupid in its appearance to some, and knew that I would get a lot of flak and eyebrow raising with this event. I would have to have tough skin to handle the criticism that would go along with it, which I am well prepared for. But the point was made! Chinese kung fu needs to get to work and step up the game!

The practitioners on the video were apparently mostly beginners. More advanced or even teachers were not going to enter in such an experimental event. Nobody wants to lose face! Think about it! Beginners have absolutely nothing to lose but everything to gain! If you were there the crowd truly enjoyed the event, seeing the monkey style and others act out their systems.

It was entertaining, educational and a hellva lot of fun to watch, especially to a novice and the average audience member. Ok, like a bad old school kung fu movie? So what? The effort was being made and can be improved. It was like watching a chess game of skill. No blood,no guts, no ground and pound, as corny as it may have seem, it has an audience.

I was not offended by the comments that was made or any to come. I understand how it must look. I said it before we began. It's the big picture, that's the interest. If those beginners continue to practice with their techniques and lose and sometimes win, they will develop their systems for the next generation.

So its important to know, how does the mantis work in actual fighting? What's practical? What's not? These light, continuous sparring chess games gives a practitioner a chance to see what could possibly work in combat without receiving great injury.

Thank you for your comments. I just pretty much wanted to stir up the Chinese kung fu world. Anything you can do to help, please join in.

To the creators of Bullshido, I very much enjoyed reading some of the comments. No one is spared! You have to have an open mind and don't take yourself to serious when it comes to life! Thanks for your comments. You rule! Christophe

[MightyB]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108240&page=3

That post is soooo awesome! RESPECT

[lkfmdc]

That post is soooo awesome! RESPECT

are you being serious? :confused:

[MightyB]

are you being serious? :confused:

Yes
----

"Tru2form: I knew that this would be somewhat funny, hilarious, hokey and stupid in its appearance to some, and knew that I would get a lot of flak and eyebrow raising with this event. I would have to have tough skin to handle the criticism that would go along with it, which I am well prepared for. But the point was made! Chinese kung fu needs to get to work and step up the game!

The practitioners on the video were apparently mostly beginners. More advanced or even teachers were not going to enter in such an experimental event. Nobody wants to lose face! Think about it! Beginners have absolutely nothing to lose but everything to gain! If you were there the crowd truly enjoyed the event, seeing the monkey style and others act out their systems.

It was entertaining, educational and a hellva lot of fun to watch, especially to a novice and the average audience member. Ok, like a bad old school kung fu movie? So what? The effort was being made and can be improved. It was like watching a chess game of skill. No blood,no guts, no ground and pound, as corny as it may have seem, it has an audience.

I was not offended by the comments that was made or any to come. I understand how it must look. I said it before we began. It's the big picture, that's the interest. If those beginners continue to practice with their techniques and lose and sometimes win, they will develop their systems for the next generation.

So its important to know, how does the mantis work in actual fighting? What's practical? What's not? These light, continuous sparring chess games gives a practitioner a chance to see what could possibly work in combat without receiving great injury."
----

At least he's trying.

[JamesC]

It's a pretty poor attempt.

If he really wanted to actually try, he'd at least have them hitting each other in the head.

[MightyB]

It's a pretty poor attempt.

If he really wanted to actually try, he'd at least have them hitting each other in the head.

What are you doing for TCMA though? - what are any of us doing (myself included)? It's easy to sit on the armchair and criticize...

We attempt to do something positive or give up completely and change to something different.

[JamesC]

What are you doing for TCMA though? - what are any of us doing (myself included)? It's easy to sit on the armchair and criticize...

We attempt to do something positive or give up completely and change to something different.

The fact that you're defending this crap baffles me. There is absolutely nothing good gained by doing this.

[Ray Pina]

He's got the right intentions. He wants to help.... but any style or system that has to have its movements forced, ie, "you have to look like this or you get points reduced" is dead. Definitely not an art.

You don't have to tell a boxer to throw his jab.... his jab is his life saver. His jab does so much for him. He works it so much he throw them in his sleep.

If these people were training their system properly they would be representing it properly in open, unrestrained combat with full strikes/throws/submissions like everybody else.

This is like training wheels for the brain dead. Does Kung FU need an encouraging word and friendly pat on the a$$?

I say it all the time. Martial arts isn't for everyone... it's for the determined, dedicated, brave. Some people can become those things from proper training..... many people can't handle the proper training.

Some do Wushu. Others wear UFC shirts.

[JamesC]

I have no problem with this stuff until they start claiming it is a "Martial Art."

Call it Wushu if that's what it is. Don't call it something it's not because it just makes the rest of us look bad.

[Ray Pina]

What are you doing for TCMA though? - what are any of us doing (myself included)? It's easy to sit on the armchair and criticize...

We attempt to do something positive or give up completely and change to something different.

I taught a handful of students. If nothing else, they have developed an eye. They know what to look for.

I don't care so much about the fate of Kung Fu. That's just a name. Martial arts are a personal thing anyway. I just can't stand the people bull$hitting and talking nonsense publicly about martial arts in general.

[MightyB]

The fact that you're defending this crap baffles me. There is absolutely nothing good gained by doing this.

I'm defending it because I see very little of anything being done to at least attempt to grow student's fighting ability. To me - this isn't something that should be done at a competition - in Judo we'd say it's basic give and take randori - an exercise done to start to teach free flow combat, it's not shiai (competitive combat).

But let's be completely honest about kung fu practitioners- they don't fight. This is a game that's somewhat martial that does help teach how to apply their style. Maybe it'd be enough to inspire that minutia of students who are interested in fighting to continue into something different and better while still preserving their style.

Like I said - it's a start - an attempt at doing something positive for TCMA. That's more than most do.

[bawang]

in kung fu this is called "yao" deviancy, or "xie fa" , evil teachings.

I have no problem with this stuff until they start claiming it is a "Martial Art."



it should be called martial gay

[MightyB]

He's got the right intentions. He wants to help.... but any style or system that has to have its movements forced, ie, "you have to look like this or you get points reduced" is dead. Definitely not an art.

You don't have to tell a boxer to throw his jab.... his jab is his life saver. His jab does so much for him. He works it so much he throw them in his sleep.

If these people were training their system properly they would be representing it properly in open, unrestrained combat with full strikes/throws/submissions like everybody else.


We often resort to what's easiest for us to do right now, and if given the choice - we'd never grow. There was a reason why these movements were developed - Again, who in Judo would attempt Hane Goshi if they weren't forced to try it sometime in friendly sparring? Nobody - it's a tough throw, yet it's effective.

[JamesC]

I'm defending it because I see very little of anything being done to at least attempt to grow student's fighting ability. To me - this isn't something that should be done at a competition - in Judo we'd say it's basic give and take randori - an exercise done to start to teach free flow combat, it's not shiai (competitive combat).

But let's be completely honest about kung fu practitioners- they don't fight. This is a game that's somewhat martial that does help teach how to apply their style. Maybe it'd be enough to inspire that minutia of students who are interested in fighting to continue into something different and better while still preserving their style.

Like I said - it's a start - an attempt at doing something positive for TCMA. That's more than most do.


The difference is that in randori you're actually making contact and throwing each other. Even in a lot of uchi komi you're still making contact.

This is worse than point sparring.

[bawang]

they are not exploring. they are justifying their abominable, treacherous, sub human behaviour.

[MightyB]

The difference is that in randori you're actually making contact and throwing each other. Even in a lot of uchi komi you're still making contact.

This is worse than point sparring.

Right now it is - can it develop into something better? Yes. This is a beginning, an attempt. I could see it growing into something more akin to Sport Jiu Jitsu.

[bawang]

as long as they stay tru 2 form it will be nothing but a omega male convention

[lkfmdc]

At least he's trying.

Or, he's taking TCMA yet again in the wrong direction

How do you teach people to fight in a venue that prevents you from actually fighting?

Have you considered that in this no contact point fighting style format you can't punch the head? How exactly is Choy lay Fut for example (since there were students of this art present at it) advancing their fighting ability when bin, so, gwa, kahp, Jong, etc are all unavailable to use because if they use them, they'd be DQ'ed?

I suspect even a strong chaap choih to the body would have caused the officials to go "whoa there!"

If you want to get better at fighting, you have to actually FIGHT! This is in no way a fight

[lkfmdc]

What are you doing for TCMA though? - what are any of us doing (myself included)? It's easy to sit on the armchair and criticize...


17 or so years ago I took all my teacher's techniques (and a lot of Shuai Jiao as well) and put my students into all sorts of real, full contact fighting events

We certainly so, kahp, chyuhn and bin'ed a lot of people. Other stuff didn't work as well, but we certainly found out a lot of it did work. We did it FULL CONTACT against guys (and gals) trained in Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, etc etc etc

I've also converted over 20 TCMA instructors into san da coaches over the years

But I'm just being critical

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMUTMQW3cNM

[lkfmdc]

I'm defending it because I see very little of anything being done to at least attempt to grow student's fighting ability.



You want to grow a student's fighting ability, MAKE THEM FIGHT

If you are gung ho on doing it the "Chinese way" you still have Kuoshu Lei Tai rules, Sanshou (IWUF), San Da, Shuai Jiao and Push hands (I'd recommend going to Taiwan for push hands, the stuff in the US is trash)

If Clark is so go hung on getting people to fight, why doesn't he push to get sanshou back up and going?

[lkfmdc]

As someone who won national titles in both Push Hands and San Shou this is beyond sad. Promoting this and letting San Shou die is inexcusable.

THIS +100

if you want to see kung fu people fight, get san shou back on its feet

[MightyB]

17 or so years ago I took all my teacher's techniques (and a lot of Shuai Jiao as well) and put my students into all sorts of real, full contact fighting events

We certainly so, kahp, chyuhn and bin'ed a lot of people. Other stuff didn't work as well, but we certainly found out a lot of it did work. We did it FULL CONTACT against guys (and gals) trained in Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, etc etc etc

I've also converted over 20 TCMA instructors into san da coaches over the years

But I'm just being critical

Actually I've been thinking a little critically about you in particular and it wasn't justified - I think that you're in a unique position with your full contact experience. Basically I think that you can contribute a huge amount to traditional Lama Pai to enhance it domestically. It would be a challenge. Maybe you're already doing it... I don't know how'd you do it though.

[lkfmdc]

Actually I've been thinking a little critically about you in particular and it wasn't justified - I think that you're in a unique position with your full contact experience. Basically I think that you can contribute a huge amount to traditional Lama Pai to enhance it domestically. It would be a challenge. Maybe you're already doing it... I don't know how'd you do it though.

Wow, you are really missing the point! Lions' roar, Lama Pai, Hop Ga, Pak Hok, white crane, crane style, kung fu, whatever the hell you want to call it IT DOES NOT MATTER

This event is exactly like this, concerned with wearing a uniform, and doing a form and trying to look like some stylized representation like a kung fu movie

Clark says "why does all fighting look like kickboxing"? Well, what WORKS are kicks and punches. And those kicks and punches are in all Chinese martial arts

I have news for Clark, 90% of seven star praying mantis (Chaat Sing Tong Long) is punches, elbows, low kicks and trips

There are only around 25 distinct mantis claw like movements and they are just grabs, pulls, pushes and catches

There are two well established two man application sets in Hung Ga. MOST of their content is punches, forearms, elbows, kicks, knees, grabs, pulls, pushes, and trips. It isn't crane, crane, snake, leopard, tiger, crane, tiger, tiger, crane crane

You know why people can't take "kung fu people" seriously anymore? They don't even understand their own arts! And this is a perfect example of this

[MightyB]

Wow, you are really missing the point! Lions' roar, Lama Pai, Hop Ga, Pak Hok, white crane, crane style, kung fu, whatever the hell you want to call it IT DOES NOT MATTER

This event is exactly like this, concerned with wearing a uniform, and doing a form and trying to look like some stylized representation like a kung fu movie

Clark says "why does all fighting look like kickboxing"? Well, what WORKS are kicks and punches. And those kicks and punches are in all Chinese martial arts

I have news for Clark, 90% of seven star praying mantis (Chaat Sing Tong Long) is punches, elbows, low kicks and trips

There are only around 25 distinct mantis claw like movements and they are just grabs, pulls, pushes and catches

There are two well established two man application sets in Hung Ga. MOST of their content is punches, forearms, elbows, kicks, knees, grabs, pulls, pushes, and trips. It isn't crane, crane, snake, leopard, tiger, crane, tiger, tiger, crane crane

You know why people can't take "kung fu people" seriously anymore? They don't even understand their own arts! And this is a perfect example of this

There is no f*cking way to diu sau with 16oz gloves <PERIOD>. Without diu sau, no mantis. So what's San Shou to a traditional mantis man? GARBAGE - f*cking kick boxing. I can go to a Thai Boxing school for that. So where can a person learn to apply kung fu? Nowhere. You can learn kick boxing and mma anywhere. There's nowhere for kung fu. You could do that if you chose to do it--- how, I don't know, but you're in a better position to figure it out. But if your choice is TCMA is garbage - then that's your choice. Don't sh*t on the people who are trying though because they're not sh*tting on you for doing san da. That's all I'm saying.

[David Jamieson]

This is a step back.

Either use the art or do this to it.

Doing this kills the functional aspect of the art form. Wu Shu has done some work at that for the last 40 years already. This is even worse than that in my opinion.

Mostly because for the most part, Wu Shu performances are at least explosive and exciting. This is bupkiss to watch. Slowly, goofy, no intention, degradation of structure etc etc.

just sad. period.

I am an advocate of doing the work.

In martial arts, that has a whole different meaning than posing.

[lkfmdc]

There is no f*cking way to diu sau with 16oz gloves <PERIOD>. Without diu sau, no mantis.



According to Chat Sing Tong Long, there are 680 techniques, 25 to 30 of them use Diu Sau

So without less than 10% of your technique base you can't fight?

OR, what about Kuoshu rules with open finger gloves, OR MMA rules with open finger gloves

Do you know the saying about "excuses"?




So where can a person learn to apply kung fu? Nowhere.



if you wander the planet looking for the deadly secrets of kung fu, NO WHERE, and that is because IT DOESN'T EXIST except in fantasy land

The lei tai events of the 1920's and the 1930's were NO GLOVES AT ALL. Those guys were certainly learning real kung fu, what did they use? Did they use all diu saus and crane beaks and tiger claws?

From the accounts AND pics we've seen, NO




Don't sh*t on the people who are trying



I just love when people get all defensive when I point out FACTS. What events like this are TRYING to do is push a fantasy, NOT reality.

Maybe you don't want me to point that out, maybe you don't want to believe it is a fantasy, but IT IS

If kung fu REALLY wants to "save itself" it needs to go back, look at what it REALLY was and REALLY IS and stop with the kung fu theatre crap

[bawang]

f*cking kick boxing.

traditional stances look exactly like kickboxing, so i dont know what you are looking for

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/pic/22_gyunbub_pic03.gif

[MightyB]

According to Chat Sing Tong Long, there are 680 techniques, 25 to 30 of them use Diu Sau

So without less than 10% of your technique base you can't fight?

- a Diu sets up or proceeds or 85% + of all those 680 techniques. You diu pac choi, diu tong choi... and on and on and on - so diu is vital and in everything

OR, what about Kuoshu rules with open finger gloves, OR MMA rules with open finger gloves
Try running without walking - where's the ramp up to MMA, didn't you read Ray's post about being set up by nefarious promoters? Otherwise I agree with you, NHB MMA is the way for kung fu to go eventually.

Do you know the saying about "excuses"?



if you wander the planet looking for the deadly secrets of kung fu, NO WHERE, and that is because IT DOESN'T EXIST except in fantasy land

No disagreement

The lei tai events of the 1920's and the 1930's were NO GLOVES AT ALL. Those guys were certainly learning real kung fu, what did they use? Did they use all diu saus and crane beaks and tiger claws?

From the accounts AND pics we've seen, NO

Same Sh*T, different day - can't run without walking, or in most cases, crawling... to expect people without any full contact experience to start pulling it out on the day of the event is asking a bit much.

I just love when people get all defensive when I point out FACTS. What events like this are TRYING to do is push a fantasy, NOT reality.

Maybe you don't want me to point that out, maybe you don't want to believe it is a fantasy, but IT IS

Difficult does not mean impossible, it just means something is hard to do and requires development. Humans are weak creatures of habit and will ALWAYS fall back on the path of least resistance. Hence my "forced Hane Goshi" story.

If kung fu REALLY wants to "save itself" it needs to go back, look at what it REALLY was and REALLY IS and stop with the kung fu theatre crap
Agreed


----------

[SPJ]

talking about re inventing the wheel

or repackage or rename things that been done before


just say light touch or light tab

light contact

etc etc

boxers did that as in library of congress videos

chinese opera did that with more fancier moves and and light weapons, too

wushu events did that

---

who ever did not do it

oooooh

been there done that eons ago

--

tru 2 what again

ooooh

been there done that by sooooooooooo maaaaaaany people

----


00000h

---

[lkfmdc]

a Diu sets up or proceeds or 85% + of all those 680 techniques.



I'm no chat sing tong long expert but I did train with the senior student of Chiu Leun for a while,

(1) don't necessarily agree

and (2) so do kuoshu or MMA with open finger gloves




Try running without walking - where's the ramp up to MMA, didn't you read Ray's post about being set up by nefarious promoters?



Well, rather than complaining there is no good venues, MAKE THEM. I co wrote the amateur MMA rules for the state on NJ which are now adopted by many of the US states under the umbrella of the Association of Boxing Commissions

So now you can do amateur MMA with more safety features (prohibited techniques, shin pads, etc) and with commission supervision you don't get "set up"

When ray was in NY he participated in at least one of these




Same Sh*T, different day - can't run without walking, or in most cases, crawling... to expect people without any full contact experience to start pulling it out on the day of the event is asking a bit much.



People have come to think you need 20 years to fight with kung fu. It's crap. I can get a student into the ring/cage in about a year. Less depending upon the student.

If you can't get ready in a year, there is something wrong with how you are training and what you are training

[bawang]

true 2 form

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/pic/22_gyunbub_pic03.gif

[MightyB]

I'm no chat sing tong long expert but I did train with the senior student of Chiu Leun for a while,

(1) don't necessarily agree

and (2) so do kuoshu or MMA with open finger gloves



Well, rather than complaining there is no good venues, MAKE THEM. I co wrote the amateur MMA rules for the state on NJ which are now adopted by many of the US states under the umbrella of the Association of Boxing Commissions

So now you can do amateur MMA with more safety features (prohibited techniques, shin pads, etc) and with commission supervision you don't get "set up"

When ray was in NY he participated in at least one of these



People have come to think you need 20 years to fight with kung fu. It's crap. I can get a student into the ring/cage in about a year. Less depending upon the student.

If you can't get ready in a year, there is something wrong with how you are training and what you are training

I think we're mostly in agreement. I like the notion of do something / make your own if it doesn't exist (although I really like the rules for sport jiu jitsu the most and if I were to try to promote something or make my own event, that'd be it) - I agree that you should be fight ready in a year (student has to put in the work though)

- I think our "disagreement" if we truly have one, is that I still have belief in TCMA... and maybe that's misguided - I don't know. The one thing I do know is that TCMA is going to have to step up somehow or accept it's status as a place for LARPing, daycare, and old people yoga. And if that's the case, I'd be first in line to Burn Down the Temple! Better to be a dead legend than a living joke.

on a side note:

Break down your teachings with Chiu Leun - don't look at the technique by itself, look one, two, three steps back in it's set up - use any form if you need guidance, and really look at the set up - 90% of set ups, at least, start with a diu. (60% of the time this is 100% correct).

[MightyB]

I think we're mostly in agreement. I like the notion of do something / make your own if it doesn't exist (although I really like the rules for sport jiu jitsu the most and if I were to try to promote something or make my own event, that'd be it) -

This is why I'm also "defending" this guy a bit. He doesn't like what he's seeing in TCMA, and he's trying to do something about it. It's not how I'd like to see it being done, but he's doing something which he believes in will work. That's more than I'm doing and it's more than most will ever do. That's all I'm saying.

[lkfmdc]

- I think our "disagreement" if we truly have one, is that I still have belief in TCMA... and maybe that's misguided - I don't know.



It depends upon what you think TCMA IS

read some recent posts in the michael matsuda thread for example

[bawang]

This is why I'm also "defending" this guy a bit. He doesn't like what he's seeing in TCMA, and he's trying to do something about it.

no, hes a sociopath thats saying what people want to hear , in order to justify extreme deviant and perverse behaviour.

this abominable orgy of evil set back kung fu for at least 40 years

[ginosifu]

Dave / MightyB

You both have some valid points.

Back in the 70's before sparring gear was invented, people fought with no safety gear. You could tell the styles by how they fought. The Kun Tao guys had their own flavor, Shaolin guys had their own flare, hung kuen looked like hung kuen etc.

Part of the problem today is that kung fu practitioners don't train like they use too. Hard core fighting all the time, 5-6 days a week was the norm back then. Nowadays, your average commercial student trains 2-3 times a week and maybe..... maybe spars a couple of times per month.

There is definately a place for San Shou / San Da, but then their should be place for kung fu fighting. There use to be no safety gear... so kung fu was always played using techniques of the given style.

This is my own personal opinion: If San Shou / San Da is the only thing that really works then hundreds of years ago they would have created a San Shou system for all of China and everyone would be using it. If everyone used only San Shou style techniques like round kicks, straight jabs, reverse punches (supposedly the only stuff that works in reality) etc., then why do we see so many varied techniques and styles? If all these different styles and techniques never really worked, then why have they flourished for hundreds of years?

ginosifu

[bawang]

If all these different styles and techniques never really worked, then why have they flourished for hundreds of years?


to scam money from people

[lkfmdc]

If San Shou / San Da is the only thing that really works then hundreds of years ago they would have created a San Shou system for all of China and everyone would be using it.



back when everyone actually WAS fighting, there was not as much variation, not as many "flowery" technique and not as much talk about chi and secrets

this isn't a theory, it is historically verifiable

in the 1920's, 1930's and then again in the 1950's when the army needed to find what actually worked, they always came back to what we know today as sanshou/san da

In the 1990's when there was an active fighting circuit in sanshou, you have 7 or 8 different teams, all different backgrounds and coaches, yet so many similarities

IE there is only what works and what doesn't

stuff like tru-2-form always says "why doesn't fighting look THIS way" and the answer is because fighting never looks that way

[lkfmdc]

If all these different styles and techniques never really worked, then why have they flourished for hundreds of years?

ginosifu

they didn't exist for hundreds of years. That's part of the fantasy

[GeneChing]

I'm curious about the rules for Tru-2-Form. Would I be allowed to show up totally drunk and do drunken style? I used to practice a drunken style form and I still practice drunken style applications. You've all read my last drunken article, yes? (https://www.tigerclaw.com/blog/2011/05/kids-vs-drunken-style/)

In all honesty, I think the critical stance that the forum is taking on Tru-2-Form is stereotypically misguided. Instead of talking smack here, just enter the next Tru-2-Form match and clean up with Sanda. Or Drunken Style. Or whatever. It's just like MMA, except totally opposite. ;)

Actually, I think you could make a pretty strong case for Xingyi in this arena. You could start with some traditional Xingyi opening and then just blast your opponent with bengquan.

[lkfmdc]

With all due respect Gene, I think your post here is stereotypically misguided




Instead of talking smack here, just enter the next Tru-2-Form match and clean up with Sanda.



So it is perfectly 100% legal to punch someone straight in the face full power? Doesn't appear that way from the videos?

How about an overhand, you know, the classic kahp choih?

What about full force leg kicks?

How can I "clean up" with San da/Lama/Choy Lay Fut/Hung Ga if I can't actually use the techniques?




Actually, I think you could make a pretty strong case for Xingyi in this arena. You could start with some traditional Xingyi opening and then just blast your opponent with bengquan.

Can you really "blast" them?

This certainly did not look like contact fighting

[lkfmdc]

oh, you were just being funny, right?

[GeneChing]

You honestly think that your San da/Lama/Choy Lay Fut/Hung Ga people couldn't use techniques that were a little lighter and still not clean up?

And yes, of course I was being funny. This is our forum. Why so serious? :p

[Ray Pina]

We often resort to what's easiest for us to do right now, and if given the choice - we'd never grow. There was a reason why these movements were developed - Again, who in Judo would attempt Hane Goshi if they weren't forced to try it sometime in friendly sparring? Nobody - it's a tough throw, yet it's effective.

I agree one has to work to develop something. I had a tendency to scramble so my coach forced me to play nothing but guard -- if I got out of guard had to restart -- for a month... I'm grateful for that. I enjoy guard now.

Hane Goshi is alive and well. It shows itself at least once or twice a week in free play at my gym. Working on something difficult is different than forcing the reconstruction of something in a way we suppose it was, could or should be.

If it works, it would be alive. There will always be need to work, train, modify maybe even improve. But if we're at the point no one knows what they he11 they're doing that they're resulting to this.... just pack it in .... step.

Those guys are going to save Kung Fu:confused: From what:confused:

[lkfmdc]

And yes, of course I was being funny. This is our forum. Why so serious? :p

the internet is serious business Gene, don't you know that?

http://www.lememe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/THE-INTERNET-IS-SERIOUS-BUSINESS.png

[YouKnowWho]

Lions' roar, Lama Pai, Hop Ga, Pak Hok, white crane, crane style, kung fu, whatever the hell you want to call it IT DOES NOT MATTER

One of the major principles in TCMA is to "enter through the leak". You attack whatever that your opponent opens for you. When your opponent

- switches sides in the middle of the fight, if your back leg roundhouse kick does not shot out at his belly,
- hook punches at you head, if you are not dodging under his punch and counter an upper cut,

you are not following "enter through the leak" principle. If you do, you will fight like a kickboxer even if you have never trained your "roundhouse" and "upper cut" in your life. Those 2 moves are just natural body respond which has nothing to do with style.

After you have knocked your opponent down, you will have all the time in the word to perform your "white crane flap wings" to prove that you are a Taiji master, or "walk in circle" to prove that you are a Bagua master.


Instead of talking smack here, just enter the next Tru-2-Form match and clean up with Sanda.
I don't think it makes sense to go backward. It's like to ask a Judo master to compete in Taiji push hands thournament. How much can he get out of it?

- honor?
- experience?

I believe the answer is "neither".

[David Jamieson]

After you have knocked your opponent down, you will have all the time in the word to perform your "white crane flap wings" to prove that you are a Taiji master, or "walk in circle" to prove that you are a Bagua master.

Flying through the air like an effin monkey gets you disqualified however.

[lkfmdc]

Flying through the air like an effin monkey gets you disqualified however.

I think "Flying through the air like an effin monkey" is the least of the concerns here

[-N-]

Here's a preview of next year's weapons sparring division.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/star-wars-kid_a_GIFSoup_com.gif

You don't need a real weapon or a real opponent. You just pretend to win after your pretend fight.

[SPJ]

true 2 form

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/pic/22_gyunbub_pic03.gif

agreed.

but how about also

tru-2-function sparring

and no TM(trademark) there

---

[MightyB]

BTW - the tru-2-form sparring looked 'tarded.

[MightyB]

I don't think it makes sense to go backward. It's like to ask a Judo master to compete in Taiji push hands thournament. How much can he get out of it?

- honor?
- experience?

I believe the answer is "neither".

Not a master, but I'd like to have the experience. Not the pu$$ified version that you see in American tournaments, but the Push Wrastl'n stuff from those old Chen village competitions.

[SPJ]

After you have knocked your opponent down, you will have all the time in the word to perform your "white crane flap wings" to prove that you are a Taiji master, or "walk in circle" to prove that you are a Bagua master.




agreed. there is the reason why all fights look like kickboxing

since functionally, they are the same across all styles.

so the idea of fighting like your forms is like perpetualling a grossly misguided idea or false belief or a lie---

--

:(

[Yum Cha]

back when everyone actually WAS fighting, there was not as much variation, not as many "flowery" technique and not as much talk about chi and secrets

this isn't a theory, it is historically verifiable

in the 1920's, 1930's and then again in the 1950's when the army needed to find what actually worked, they always came back to what we know today as sanshou/san da

In the 1990's when there was an active fighting circuit in sanshou, you have 7 or 8 different teams, all different backgrounds and coaches, yet so many similarities

IE there is only what works and what doesn't

stuff like tru-2-form always says "why doesn't fighting look THIS way" and the answer is because fighting never looks that way

Ok, I got some input here, yea, no. Back in the day when we had tournaments with 'San Da' rules, we had cup, mouthguard and 8oz gloves. No vest, no shinguards, headgear optional.

Sometimes it was a messy brawl, but lots of time you got good style and technique with full contact. Saw a Pak Hok lightweight once rip a guy up by running in a star pattern around the guy, hitting him once or twice in each pass, and not copping a lick.

Good short arm vs long arm fights. And different kinds of fighters too, guys that weren't anything more than club blokes 'representing' on the day, on through to full on fight only guys.

Some kickboxing, some Chinese Boxing, some kickers, mostly boxers... Choi Lee Fut and Yau Kung Mun had the biggest silver cabinets, Pak Hok, Double Dragon, and some smaller schools had standout fighers here and there. These were full pedigree TCMA.

Choi Lee Fut (Chen yong fa) was the first to go full on into San Da training, they had a major rivalry with Yau Kung Mun, it was heavy. Yau Kung Mun had a couple of perennial champions that just couldn't be beaten over a 10 year period in the mid 70-80s. Including the heavyweight....<grin>.

No, San Da is not the be all and end all, ultimate realisation unless its the only game in town. Hell, its half 'mech warrior'.

Why can't the tru-2-form fighting use San Da rules, just add the points as per the new rules? F**king-ay, you got no right getting out there it you're not prepared to catch one in the cake hole... IMHO....

In its defense, it did look like beginners doing point sparring, but it is a new format, and everybody looked tentative. There was a lot of room left to mix it up without eye gougin and arm breakin'....

[SanShou Guru]

Since I have been doing what should be considered “real” San Shou longer then anyone else on this forum I guess I’ll weigh in again. I trained with Jason Yee when he won the Bronze in San Shou in 1991 at the first World Championships in Beijing. Jason Yee who is far and away the best athlete to compete and win titles in both forms and fighting. Jason would say forms are forms, fighting is fighting. There was little crossover beyond the rawest principles. When Jason taught forms classes he would explain the use of the technique so we knew what to picture when we did the move but it would not really work in the ring if your opponent was even remotely competent.

We had to suffer through the Tru-2-form fighters in the San Shou ranks. We called them Kung-Fu daddies. I have fought Wing Chug, Bagua, drunken something, etc. It drove us nuts and they ALWAYS lost. The Bagua guy started his circle up until I hit him. Then he tried to use Push hands and I put him in Shawn Lui’s lap over the judge’s table. At the same tournament I still remember Rudi Ott pacing back and forth after the first round of a Kung-Fu daddy fight complaining about how bad the guys was and how hard he had trained to fight someone like this was insulting. They were even worse then whom we called the “Bob from Denver”s. Random guys who were mostly self-trained, deep on theory and slim on experience.

I trained and competed in Hsing-I and used the principles in the ring with great success but not the form of the technique. That would get me killed. What drives Ross and the modern coaches crazy is that people who really don’t know Sheit about fighting try to stick to the form exactly. That is B.S. of the highest order. They think that if they saw warriors from historical China fighting it would look like a Jet Li movie. It wouldn’t. If they were trained it would look more like Braveheart, hack, smash, kill, trip, fall, stumble, etc. I can’t do my techniques with gloves on, B.S.. I catch and throw people all the time with gloves on. Gloves are used in the UFC not to protect the person getting hit but to protect your hands. If you punch with real (boxer level) power against a real head without at least raps you will break your hand. If I had to really fight someone I would want 6 oz. MMA gloves and a good wrap job. It may hamper my Mantis grab but I can knock your teeth out like Chiclets spilled in a movie theater while you are half way through your Pat the Wild Horses Main throw attempt.

As the oldest and most successful San Shou program in the US I can tell you we beg borrow and steal anything that works in a fight. We also train our fighters to fight the way they are built to fight. Mantis may work for an athletic lean flexible person and not for a 240lbs construction worker with no flexibility.

I am a better fighter then you are not because Hsing-I is better then Bagua but because I trained with a fantastic coach that adapted our style to what worked in REAL fights. I’m a better fighter then you because my theories about fighting came from experience not a book, dvd, or play fighting with friends in my back yard. I am a better fighter then you because I have sparred more then 10,000 rounds over 20 years against very good fighters and learned every time.

Real-to-form fighting is as insulting to me as if I watched you do your best form and then spent a day teaching it to a homeless guys and put a video of him on YouTube and pass him off as a master of your style.

[SanShou Guru]

If you think REAL San Shou is just kick boxing and you can't do you techniques with gloves on then watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU) and judge.

[MightyB]

You know - when one takes stock of their lives - they think about how things may have been done differently. When I talk to kids about MA, I first try to find out what their true interests are - if they want to fight, I push boxing, wrestling, and Judo (I figure they can learn the kicks later on their own, plus good boxing, wrestling, and Judo is available pretty much anywhere and it's surprisingly affordable). To me, a perfect mix is boxing and Judo and it's what I'd do if I could do it all over again. I'd add a CMA later in life.

I don't dispute anything that you guys are saying (Dave and SanShou), and if you read my thread/post history - I say and advocate pretty much everything you say because I was a kung fu daddy in a san shou ring and learned to adapt pretty fast to today's reality after that great experience.

That being said - I'm not going to trash anybody that's attempting anything to inspire sparring in the TCMA world. A) TCMA needs sparring B) TCMA stylists hate to spar so this Tru2 stuff might get them at least doing something C) Light-contact continuous if done consistently will at least get them to learn better timing, rhythm and distance D) Sparring consistently inspires some to want to learn to fight because they're starting to get acclimated to the idea E) We might get more fighters in TCMA because some will want to fight. Seriously - the most difficult thing in TCMA in smaller communities is finding sparring partners - no one wants to spar!

[MasterKiller]

Daaayuum, SanShou Guru just laid down knowledge on you suckas.

http://dudelol.com/img/baby-in-a-tux-like-a-boss.jpg

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha, do you on purupose avoid certain statements? I mean, all you can harp about is "sanshou" but we've already mentioned kuoshu lei tai (finger less gloves) and MMA (fingerless gloves) neither had chest shields

San Da in the US has NEVER had chest shields




Ok, I got some input here, yea, no. Back in the day when we had tournaments with 'San Da' rules, we had cup, mouthguard and 8oz gloves. No vest, no shinguards, headgear optional.



It seems all you can harp on, and this is not the first time, is equipment

I already said we mentioned formats with little to no gear

Additionally, do you really think if I too MY GUYS and put them with the tru-2-form guys and we fought full contact that gear or no gear would make a difference? REALLY ? :eek:




Sometimes it was a messy brawl, but lots of time you got good style and technique with full contact. Saw a Pak Hok lightweight once rip a guy up by running in a star pattern around the guy, hitting him once or twice in each pass, and not copping a lick.



sure you can see technique in a full contact fight. But to get there you have to train to fight, not train to dance around each other with no contact like a bad kung fu movie

Did you ever see the fantasy-fu that was being propogated by this tru-2-form stuff? Come on , be honest




No, San Da is not the be all and end all, ultimate realisation unless its the only game in town. Hell, its half 'mech warrior'.



here you go again with your one track obession.

Also, you really need to actually watch some san da, it is NOT covered in padding.

But it does appear you never bother with the "details" :rolleyes:




Why can't the tru-2-form fighting use San Da rules, just add the points as per the new rules? F**king-ay, you got no right getting out there it you're not prepared to catch one in the cake hole... IMHO....



If it was full contact, it would look NOTHING like this. And if it was full contact 100% of the participants in this would leave, that's the point

[lkfmdc]

We had to suffer through the Tru-2-form fighters in the San Shou ranks. We called them Kung-Fu daddies. I have fought Wing Chug, Bagua, drunken something, etc. It drove us nuts and they ALWAYS lost. The Bagua guy started his circle up until I hit him.



I had a guy contact me to fight in one of the NY events. He was the self professed "bare knuckle lei tai champion of South America". He said he had 50 something fights. He wanted to fight Al Loraux (sp?) from Boston - I think now only Sanshou Guru knows how funny that sounds

I had my doubts so instead of feeding him to Al (as a light snack) we put the bare knuckle champion of south america against a guy with 6 months san shou training

The bare knuckle champion of south america showed up and fought in a full kung fu uniform, he ba gua walked at the beginning of the first round, then the fight began and he got knocked out about a minute later

He said "I don't understand" but we did :D




What drives Ross and the modern coaches crazy is that people who really don’t know Sheit about fighting try to stick to the form exactly. That is B.S. of the highest order. They think that if they saw warriors from historical China fighting it would look like a Jet Li movie. It wouldn’t.



I'd clarify this point. What TCMA is REALLY composed of is basic kicks, punches, sweeps, knees and elbows. ALL of which you can use in a full contact fight

The "kung fu daddies" are always looking for some fancy palm, or claw or spin move, or death touch

A lot of the moves that they try to make into "striking" are really wrestling and clinching, they simply have no clue how to use them




"I can’t do my techniques with gloves on, B.S".. I catch and throw people all the time with gloves on.



Watch any high level san shou or san da and you see plenty of catches and throws

and AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN if you really think the gloves are the issue do lei tai or even better MMA

[lkfmdc]

if you think real san shou is just kick boxing and you can't do you techniques with gloves on then watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcnt3mx-ztu) and judge.

word +10000000

[yutyeesam]

3 Things on my mind in regards to Tru 2 Form.

1. I can see that it will produce a lot of egos. Unwarranted egos for LARPing is sort of the last thing the CMA world needs right now.

2. Nobody can dispute that there is a ripe and ready market for fantasy fighting. So, this will work if the business is done right, but when it comes to the CMA, business is many times not done right. While I'm not sure how this will play out, I'm not terribly worried about this becoming a sensation.

3. I do see the need to have a venue for people who may not be ready for continuous sparring or san da. Many CMA schools have cardio kickboxing programs, or an intense forms regimen, and often times, it can be hard to convince those folks to spar, despite your best efforts.

So to that end, I recognize the need of something as a primer to prepare people to mix hands. But without hard contact and intent, it's dishonest. To address this real issue of getting more people to exchange hands, I'd suggest a drill called "1 for 1" - you give an attack and they defend, then they give an attack and you defend. Do it with full power intent, contact, to all gates on the body, etc. (it's essentially a common stick drill in Escrima, some call it "Free Flow"). But that's just an idea to try to get people used to the idea of contact that still has an element of randomness to it, without completely getting scared off by san shou (or even continuous sparring for that matter).

[Ray Pina]

I am a better fighter then you are not because Hsing-I is better then Bagua but because I trained with a fantastic coach that adapted our style to what worked in REAL fights. I’m a better fighter then you because my theories about fighting came from experience not a book, dvd, or play fighting with friends in my back yard. I am a better fighter then you because I have sparred more then 10,000 rounds over 20 years against very good fighters and learned every time.


Perfectly said!


Another thing to consider, and I truly believe this, is that Kung Fu does not attract fighters. If you want to kick and punch people in the head, if that's what you enjoy doing, the fighting.... you don't get that enough, or at all, in TCMA schools.

I was attracted to Kung Fu for the principles I've seen and read about. I left because no one would fight and yet I had to kowtow to people I could have whipped on day 1. Too much ego, false pride and fear of losing face.

Guys who want to fight in that world with gravitate to San Da and then eventually to MMA. Might as well.... it's too competitive. You can't afford to spend valuable training time d!cking around with guys who want to impress their friends with a drunken boxing form. And the thinking of that crowd is poisonous for a fighter. A fighter needs to be around trainers and other fighters.

[Ray Pina]

If you think REAL San Shou is just kick boxing and you can't do you techniques with gloves on then watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU) and judge.

Awesome!

.................

[bawang]

the problem came from chinatown kung fu and hongkong movies.

[lkfmdc]

Japanese Jiu Jitsu used to think it was "too deadly" to spar or compete. Then Kano came

Japanese Karate used to think it was "too deadly" to spar or compete. Then they accepted sparring, then Mas Oyama came, use have varying degrees of contact but you still have a wide range of hard contact venues in karate now

Ironically, taekwondo has always had sparring, hard contact sparring

Kung Fu is still trapped in that too deadly, there are also just outright frauds teaching, who don't want people to realize they are just teaching crap. There are no organizations to police them, no accepted ranking, etc

[JamesC]

Japanese Jiu Jitsu used to think it was "too deadly" to spar or compete. Then Kano came

Japanese Karate used to think it was "too deadly" to spar or compete. Then they accepted sparring, then Mas Oyama came, use have varying degrees of contact but you still have a wide range of hard contact venues in karate now

Ironically, taekwondo has always had sparring, hard contact sparring

Kung Fu is still trapped in that too deadly, there are also just outright frauds teaching, who don't want people to realize they are just teaching crap. There are no organizations to police them, no accepted ranking, etc

This probably wouldn't be SUCH an issue if there weren't so many "styles", "organizations", and "masters" when compared to others.

[bawang]

david ross, whatever happened to your federation you created?

[lkfmdc]

This probably wouldn't be SUCH an issue if there weren't so many "styles", "organizations", and "masters" when compared to others.

there are many factors why TCMA is in the mess it is. But I will say, you know that Japan had a lot of styles, Korea had even MORE. The mentality in Japan is to get along, the mentality in KOREA is "conform or ELSE" ... there is a reason they call it a "Chinese fire drill" ..

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

THIS is why this format will not work

"Safety is the key. If a competitor shows overly aggressive behavior or poor sportsmanship, he will be cautioned once. A second time will result in disqualification."

My student is a beginner, with less than 5 months experience (training 2 times a week, for an hour + his daily cross fit schedule). He'd destroy these Tru 2 Form competitors in seconds. He would probably get disqualified for aggressiveness, but he'd do it, and look exactly like the techniques in his form....a form I have not yet taught him.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This probably wouldn't be SUCH an issue if there weren't so many "styles", "organizations", and "masters" when compared to others.

Actually, that variety is the one reason why we have any good Kung Fu at all.

[JamesC]

Actually, that variety is the one reason why we have any good Kung Fu at all.

I wasn't really talking about the quality so much as the reluctance of all the masters to unify.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I wasn't really talking about the quality so much as the reluctance of all the masters to unify.

We don't want them to unify. What we need is a separate commercial interest to promote Kuohsuo/ Sanda Sanshou at every level.

Basically, I want to see MMA, but with rule sets similar to traditional Letai fighting. That would give a huge venue for Kung Fu schools to test and develop thier skills

What we need, is Sanda/Sanshou to have a Kuo Shuo like rules division, only without the gloves and face masks for professional fighters.

Kuo Shuo can remain for the amateurs. They can then step in to the pro level, with similar rules, but less restrictions, rather than have to go to Sanda with the big poofy gloves.

I have been talking about this for 10 years or so. i was hoping someone would have created that bridge by now.

[wenshu]

THIS is why this format will not work

"Safety is the key. If a competitor shows overly aggressive behavior or poor sportsmanship, he will be cautioned once. A second time will result in disqualification."

My student is a beginner, with less than 5 months experience (training 2 times a week, for an hour + his daily cross fit schedule). He'd destroy these Tru 2 Form competitors in seconds. He would probably get disqualified for aggressiveness, but he'd do it, and look exactly like the techniques in his form....a form I have not yet taught him.

How do you not smell the **** you're shoveling?

[lkfmdc]

How do you not smell the **** you're shoveling?

just a guess

http://photos.demandstudios.com/getty/article/104/0/200246729-001_XS.jpg

[wenshu]

just a guess

http://photos.demandstudios.com/getty/article/104/0/200246729-001_XS.jpg

I personally don't have that problem because my **** smells like

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/CHANEL_No5_parfum.jpg/200px-CHANEL_No5_parfum.jpg

[bawang]

my sh1t smells like kfc, because i eat a lot of kfc.

[Taixuquan99]

Mine's nutty, with a hint of pinot noir.

[wenshu]

Colonel Sanders creates no bad karma.

http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/2/5/9/3/colonel_sanders_with_cheerleaders_s.jpg

[Mas Judt]

I hate you all for making me watch that cr@p.

[SPJ]

light touch is just that light touch.

but we all play tennis, baseball or basket ball with full swing or full force.

--

:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If you are a sifu, and you discover your student enters such an event, you have only a few choices. Instruct him to maim his opponent and be disqualified for excessive force for actually showing true Kung fu, or kill your student.

[bawang]

did it ever occur their minds that maybe they shouldve done their forms like real fighting? wouldnt that be easier than trying to be tru-2- form?

[SPJ]

they still can do their things

just say it is light touch or light contact.

very gentle

like using your ipad, epad or touchpad.

swipe slightly and such.

:)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUib86bREx4

[taai gihk yahn]

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUib86bREx4

waitaminit - this was the same guy who was on YT a few years ago admonishing a group of rather stunned looking competitors that when they fight they needed to "look like" their style - so I guess he took it up a notch;

good lord, what an idiotic perspective

addendum: this guy should be selling used cars; he basically sets up a hypothetical based on all kinds of crazy assumptions: like "anyone can use brute strength" - good luck w that if u haven't strength trained! and the conceit, the ARROGANCE he displays is astounding - refering to MMA guys as neanderthals, and promoting kung fu as high class - LOL!!!! he reallyy has bought hook, line and sinker the whole elitist BS that was propogated by Sun Lu Tang and his ilk;

misguided...

[taai gihk yahn]

my lord - 18 minutes of that drivel - I think someone is in love w the sound of their own voice...

[lkfmdc]

I would like to suggest TRU 2 form add a rule

use TRUE styles....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4J0HHlXfw&feature=related

scorpion kung fu indeed :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I would like to suggest TRU 2 form add a rule

use TRUE styles....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4J0HHlXfw&feature=related

scorpion kung fu indeed :rolleyes:

Well, there actually is a Scorpion style at Shaolin Temple, along with Toad and several other odd animals.


For convenience, here are my youtube comments:


I do a style based off of a Gibbon (a type of ornery ape with really long arms). If I enter my student, and he steps in and rips his opponents head off, we win because it's true to our form, right?

If we fail to rip out opponents head off, we lose, because we were not true to form? Do I understand the concept here?




What if someone practices that angry ****ed off spazzed out monkey style from Indonesia and he fails to jump up and down on the opponents face after crushing his ribs? He loses, right? for not being true to form?

[lkfmdc]

Well, there actually is a Scorpion style at Shaolin Temple, along with Toad and several other odd animals.



so modern Shaolin is just as prone to teach made up crap, that's good to know :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am now debating the veracity of this venue on Youtube....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4J0HHlXfw&feature=related

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

so modern Shaolin is just as prone to teach made up crap, that's good to know :rolleyes:

Yup


............

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnecQynoupc&feature=relmfu

the guy in black shirt actually looks decent, and he being nice to the guy in gray shirt, taking it easy on him, trying his best to not look stupid obeying the rediculous rules.

the guy in the grey shirt grabs him, tenses up and pushes him to the ground, and "won".

this kind of bullsh1t happens all the time in kung fu.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnecQynoupc&feature=relmfu

the guy in black shirt actually looks decent, and he being nice to the guy in gray shirt, trying to obey the rules and not look stupid.

the guy in the grey shirt grabs him, tenses up and pushes him to the ground, and "won".

this kind of bullsh1t happens all the time in kung fu. you be nice to someone and go easy on them, they suddenly surprise you and think they "won".

The guy in the grey reminds me of a Chung Moo Quan guy I used to know. He moves like him too.

Sorry, both of these guys seriously suck. They are so bad, that they make *Me* look like a master.....

[bawang]

T

Sorry, both of these guys seriously suck. They are so bad, that they make *Me* look like a master.....
the black guy is trying to look dignified and obey the rules. its low contact point sparring.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

what happened in that video is hard to notice but its more disgraceful than the other videos.

always i run into crazy peopel that ask me to chi sao or push hands, and then fukin sucker punch me in the nose or something. one time this guy told me to relax and be "sung", then tried to sit on my knee and break my fukin leg.

I have had that happen too. Well, not the knee thing, but the sucker punch.

Although my Zhao Bao freind has that as part of his push hands, so when the other guy tried it, it didn't work because I was used to it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the black guy is trying to look dignified and obey the rules. its low contact point sparring.

No, I don't think so. His foot work sucks. His structure is weak. He has a messed up sense of timing. The reason he looks good to you, is that the other guy is THAT bad. It's a relativity thing.

[bawang]

the point is he is trying. hes the least stupid looking guy from that tournament.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

the point is he is trying. hes the least stupid looking guy from that tournament.

Ok, I will agree with that. He definitely was the least stupid looking guy.

I think my student's next lesson will be stepping and foot work untill he loses the ability to remember his name...just to make sure he never looks like this.

[bawang]

i recommend doing lunge with a cable machine, its really improved my footwork

i had problem with slow stepping no matter how much i did footwork on a heavy bag. i tried cable lunge just for the hell of it, problem solved after 2 workouts

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I actually have ballistic entry exercises I stole from Kuntao Silat; that we do every warmup. I think I will have him do 100 of each one, instead of 10.

I do stalking and targeting drills too. These are designed to teach the student to acquire position before striking so no shots are wasted on thin air. If a strike misses, it has to be because the opponent moved or blocked. I am real big on not throwing shots unless they can actually connect.

The flow is to use foot work to acquire position, strikes to soften, then enter for a takedown using one of the techniques from the form.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

i recommend doing lunge with a cable machine, its really improved my footwork

i had problem with slow stepping no matter how much i did footwork on a heavy bag. i tried cable lunge just for the hell of it, problem solved after 2 workouts

I have done similar, only using rope tied to a bag of rocks for a weight.

[bawang]

im not bragging about myself, im asking you to seriously consider getting your student to try the cable lunge, unless u dont got a gym membership

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

im not bragging about myself, im asking you to seriously consider getting your student to try the cable lunge, unless u dont got a gym membership

He owns a crossfit gym. His stuff is very simple though. He's got lots of pullup bars, and several bar bell sets. No cables though.

I suppose I could make him pull my Suburban around the parking lot with a tow rope though.

[bawang]

then he needs to get an adjustable cable machine, thats essential for training explosive punching and footwork, and it doesnt take up space




I suppose I could make him pull my Suburban around the parking lot with a tow rope though.

im talking about fast explosive footwork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gno3HoeGb0

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

then he needs to get an adjustable cable machine, thats essential for training explosive punching and footwork, and it doesnt take up space



im talking about fast explosive footwork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gno3HoeGb0

I can do it without though. You just gotta think 'Old School'

[bawang]

what do you mean

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Try walking forward, in a deep bowstance. Stay as close to parallel as possible. Do 100 reps. Then, as your strength increases, boost your speed a little at a time. Pretty soon it will be easy. Once that happens, you are really fast and agile when you are higher up.

Also, jumping up and pulling you knees to your chest as fast as you can 100 times each session is really good to build explosive power that adds a lot of agility. Once it is easy, start holding landscaping rocks of various sizes to add weight.

There is all sorts of stuff really.

[Ray Pina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnecQynoupc&feature=relmfu

the guy in black shirt actually looks decent,

He doesn't look like he took as much acid as the other guys, but martially he is disconnected, over reaching and over extending, breaking his posture and ducking his head down.

[bawang]

Try walking forward, in a deep bowstance. Stay as close to parallel as possible. Do 100 reps. Then, as your strength increases, boost your speed a little at a time. Pretty soon it will be easy. Once that happens, you are really fast and agile when you are higher up.



son, i am disappoint.

[MasterKiller]

Sadly, this is actually the best Tru2form video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FShtVAdI2s

Do I smell copyright enfringement?

[lkfmdc]

Sadly, this is actually the best Tru2form video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FShtVAdI2s

Do I smell copyright enfringement?

shhhhhhh, be quiet

Let Clark get all his investors' money, set up a big event and THEN notify this company about the copyright issues

That's how you will destroy this affront to humanity

PS: clark has removed the video of him **** talking for 18 minutes, I wonder why :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

shhhhhhh, be quiet

Let Clark get all his investors' money, set up a big event and THEN notify this company about the copyright issues

That's how you will destroy this affront to humanity

PS: clark has removed the video of him **** talking for 18 minutes, I wonder why :rolleyes:

Because I ripped him a new one in the comments.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

son, i am disappoint.

Why? It's simple, it works, and you don't need any equipment.

[taai gihk yahn]

Because I ripped him a new one in the comments.
me too; would have like to have read your invective before he removed it though, lol...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

me too; would have like to have read your invective before he removed it though, lol...

I was pretty brutal. The kind of brutal that would have had me in a fist fight if we were face to face.

I told him that those poor competitors were now the laughing stock of the martial arts/Kung Fu world. I told him he was an embarrassment and only a former Chung moo Quan person could possibly conceive such stupid bafoonery. Or some such thing to that effect...several times.

That was my warm up. I went back and forth with him much of the day. I ripped him silly repeatedly.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, this Tru2form crap IS how Chung Moo Quan does thier competitions. It's the exact format. I have never seen it anywhere else till now. They just brightened it up a bit and added the 'Bobby Brady' personality to it (you all remember the Brady Bunch TV show, right?)

[ginosifu]

In defense of those who sponsor tournaments, few barely break even, if they don't lose money. Local tournaments are not the cash cow most peeps imagine them to be.

Trophies/medals are quite expensive. Renting a hall is also very expensive. Most tournaments that I have judged at also provide lunch of some kind for all the judges, scorekeepers, etc..

Providing quality instructors for the seminars after the tournaments is also expensive. Some instructors act like divas. They are often unwilling to judge, expect nice accommodations and meals while they are in town and will not attend if members of other families of the same style are in attendance.

If you think you will get rich sponsoring a tournament, try it and get back with me when you are driving your new Mercedes-Benz. Though I won't hold my breath waiting for you to call. :)

Talk to Ginosifu if you really want to know what hosting a tournament is like.

Our Annual Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships usually break even and maybe a couple of Bucks for my Sifu to pocket. Small local tournaments are not big money makers. Too many increasing costs are involved:

Increasing Liability Insurance
Increasing Cost on Venue (the place where it is held)
Increasing costs for Airfare to bring in VIP's
Increasing costs for Equipment (Puzzle Mats, San Shou Gear etc)
Increasing costs for Trophies / Medals

No one is making any big bucks here, just trying to provide a place for peeps to compete against each other and test their skill.

ginosifu

[SPJ]

just say it is a format of light contact

it is not full contact or full force sparring.

--

[lkfmdc]

Christophe Clarke just challenged me to a fight, but first I have to pay him $20,000 LOL... dear lord the guy is a total clown

[Taixuquan99]

Christophe Clarke just challenged me to a fight, but first I have to pay him $20,000 LOL... dear lord the guy is a total clown

I'll fight you for half that, and an autographed copy of Gene Ching's Shaolin trips.

[lkfmdc]

I'll fight you for half that, and an autographed copy of Gene Ching's Shaolin trips.

can I just give you a nekkid pic of gene?

[Taixuquan99]

can I just give you a nekkid pic of gene?

Fair enough. In return, I will not use my deadly northern kicks.

Now, as to who will preside over the event, I'm going to insist on Linda Lee.

[lkfmdc]

Fair enough. In return, I will not use my deadly northern kicks.

Now, as to who will preside over the event, I'm going to insist on Linda Lee.

I was thinking more Zoe Saldana so this could be a problem :mad:

[GeneChing]

can I just give you a nekkid pic of gene?WTF? NO!

I'd play Tru-2-Form nekkid with some ninjettes. They could do snake style. I'll do drunken. And there could be several of them to one of me. I wouldn't even charge $20K.

[Taixuquan99]

I was thinking more Zoe Saldana so this could be a problem :mad:

I'm willing to compromise in this case, but now I will be using my deadly northern kicks. If this goes more than five minutes, I still reserve the right to agonize over it and release a hastily assembled morass of notes on salsa dancing entitled "The Tao of Tao Quan Tao".

[Taixuquan99]

WTF? NO!


Yes. Since your rigged election, there is now a movement to determine what other shenanigans you've been up to.

I will not name names, but someone, we'll call him dookus, has suggested that the pic Ross keeps putting up of you may not be anatomically correct, that, in fact, a much smaller book may have sufficed.

Of course, I have faith he is wrong, but for the sake of the truth...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Christophe Clarke just challenged me to a fight, but first I have to pay him $20,000 LOL... dear lord the guy is a total clown

What? Why did he do that? What did you say to him?

[lkfmdc]

he's challenging almost the entire bullshido forum :eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This guy is like from the mid 1990s!!

You got a link?

[bawang]

why donnt you acept the chalenge david ross, you are rich you can afford

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If not him, then me. I could really use $20,000.00 right now

[IronWeasel]

Christophe Clarke just challenged me to a fight, but first I have to pay him $20,000 LOL... dear lord the guy is a total clown




Let's take up a collection....

I'll Paypay you $10 to start.


:D

[Eric Olson]

The really dumb thing about this Tru2Form thing is that the techniques from your forms should come out naturally in the course of sparring. It happened to me all the time when I was sparring a lot and always kind of amazed me.

To consciously try to use moves from the form doesn't really work. The goal is to have a mind like water, not try to force your movement into some preconceived notion of how it's "supposed" to look.

Ridiculous.

EO

[SPJ]

forms

moves are modified in the forms, so that we may continue to move smoothly from one posture to the next and always come back to where we start.

tru 2 style is better, if you use the moves from your style, you get extra points.

that was the idea of wu lin da hui.

with chest protector and no head shot

so no KO. do get points for punch and kick landed.

but favor throws

you do need speed and power to throw or land your shots/punches/kicks.

if no throw and no heavy punch/kick, or just light touch.

it is called touching people and not really hitting people.

just say it is light touch.

---

[MasterKiller]

Christophe Clarke just challenged me to a fight, but first I have to pay him $20,000 LOL... dear lord the guy is a total clown

I'll fight you for $8,000 plus meals. But I'm not cutting weight.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Master's Tru2Form archival footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4J4Cvx__po&feature=related

[lkfmdc]

Master's Tru2Form archival footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4J4Cvx__po&feature=related

you know, completely aside form the Clarke debacle, those movies featured Kwan Tak Hing, well known kung fu guy, and had associated with it some of the top people of the time, some famous names. It's interesting to see what they did, how they did it BACK THEN< and what they saw kung fu as

It seems a bit different, no?

[Lebaufist]

Master's Tru2Form archival footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4J4Cvx__po&feature=relatedYou ever watch a wrestling match with the sound off? Or with some classical music playing? It changes the perceived tone of the action. A neat sounding score would pump this up to epic film greatness.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

you know, completely aside form the Clarke debacle, those movies featured Kwan Tak Hing, well known kung fu guy, and had associated with it some of the top people of the time, some famous names. It's interesting to see what they did, how they did it BACK THEN< and what they saw kung fu as

It seems a bit different, no?

This is from a Movie Ross. It's movie Kung Fu, not how it was really done back then. That's why I posted the link. Tru2Form is Movie Kung Fu, not the real thing.

[lkfmdc]

This is from a Movie Ross. It's movie Kung Fu, not how it was really done back then. That's why I posted the link. Tru2Form is Movie Kung Fu, not the real thing.

you completely missed my point and some moderator :rolleyes: deleted my other thread so I just f-in give up for today

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

you completely missed my point and some moderator :rolleyes: deleted my other thread so I just f-in give up for today

Actually, I got the point...just not till after i read your comments about the other thread being deleted.

Ok, you are right about real technique being used. However, there are still grandiose theatrics and mindless motion being done both before, and after something useful is shown, because its a Movie. They didn't really fight like that.