San Soo and five families

[Grasshopper101]

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed to death before, and I did use the search feature and didn't see an answer to this question.


So I've been fascinated with the whole 5 animals - Ark Wong 5 families thing (see my previous thread for reference, and I have often come across San Soo having five families as well. From my web searches, the five families are as follows (I don't speak Chinese, and I know different dialects spell and pronounce words differently, and they may be the same depending on the dialect):

San Soo:
Tsoi- Li- Ho- Fut- Hung

5 Animals
Fut - Hung - Choy - Lee - Mok

Now, I have to ask the obvious - are these families in any way the same, and do these styles share some, part, or all of these lineages? If so (in any amount), what ramifications does that have? I've watched some videos on YouTube, and compared some of the forms - to my own inexpert eye, I can see some similarities in the styles that are hard to ignore.

On the flip side, I've read articles that alledge that San Soo's parent art originally included animal forms, but Jimmy Woo eliminated from the system because "men don't fight like animals" or something to that effect.

Can I get some feedback from you all on your perspectives on these two styles? Am I falling into the trap of the keyboard warrior and trying to make connections where there are none?

[CLFNole]

The 5 Southern Families are Hung, Lau, Choy, Lay & Mok
The 5 Animals are Tiger (Fu), Panther (Pow), Crane (Hok), Snake (Seh) and Dragon (Lung).

There are of course both more families and more animals; however these were the main/most popular if you will.

Not sure how Ark Wong fits into this but Fut isn't generally a "family" persay as the Family names are surnames and "fut" means buddha but the term fut gar "buddha family" is popular and a style but it doesn't really belong with the 5 families.

[TenTigers]

to add-Fut-Ga, or Fut-Ga Lo-Han Kuen, is an umbrella term for any and all of the Southern Siu-Lum (Shaolin) systems.

[Grasshopper101]

When i said five animals above, inwas simply distingushing the two styles im comparing, as Ark Wongs style is also called five families. Its confusing

[MightyB]

Kung Fu San Soo otherwise known as the fine art of the refined curb stomp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFU7p2S0wvU

Like it, good art - good fighting philosophy which produced some very well known fighters (Don "the Dragon" Wilson, and Kathy Long).

[CLFNole]

I though Don "The Dragon" Wilson was from White Tiger.

[Mulong]

Don is Pai Lum...

[bawang]

whats a san soo

[Mulong]

San soo is phonetic Romanization of 散手or San Sau (Cantonese/Guangzhouese) or Sanshou (Mandarin) a style introduce by Chin Siu Dek (Jimmy H. Woo) to the states.

[bawang]

seems made up.

[Mulong]

Sorry to inform you, it is a style taught in Southern California; indeed, it means scatter hands, but that is what Woo Shifu decided to call his style. It seems to borrow notions from cailifoquan/ Choi Lei Faht Kyuhn.

[lkfmdc]

Every time I point this out, a horde of Jimmy Wong people pop an important blood vessel in their head

Jimmy was totally associated with the Kempo guys, Ed parker in particular, and ran a "Karate Kempo" school for a while that suddenly became "san soo KUNG FU" after the kung fu craze hit

The whole thing about it being CLF or about him being part of the Chan family never seemed to come up while he was alive (hmmmmm :rolleyes: yeah)

after he passed away, a ton of his guys wanted CLF ranking

weird weird weird group

[Mulong]

Okay there is James Wing Woo, who supposedly does fojiaquan, cailifoquan and teaches Yang****aijiquan and is associated with Ed Parker, and then there is Chin Siu Dek or better known as Jimmy H. Woo, who taught San Soo.

[lkfmdc]

Okay there is James Wing Woo, who supposedly does fojiaquan, cailifoquan and teaches Yang****aijiquan and is associated with Ed Parker, and then there is Chin Siu Dek or better known as Jimmy H. Woo, who taught San Soo.

Jimmy Wong (who when he was alive was never "Chin Siu Dek") sitting next to parker, standing next to parker, training with parker, in a gi (it might have been a black one, don't remember), with a big old "kemp karate" banner in his window

Tony Galvin from San Fran was old enough to remember this, people think that no one has a memory that stretches back more than a few years

Some of us are OLD and know people who are even OLDER :eek:

[lkfmdc]

Plus, does anyone really buy there is a "version" of CLF that for some strange reason doesn't have gwa, deng, so, biu jong and chaap????

[mig]

It looks he gives a general definition in this youtube clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ17GH2wjv8&feature=related

doesn't seem that is related to choy lee fut (cailifo)

[Mulong]

Here is a glimpse of Woo Shifu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9W_aoqX8&feature=related

[lkfmdc]

Here is a glimpse of Woo Shifu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wu9W_aoqX8&feature=related

does that look like Choy Lay Fut to you?

[Grasshopper101]

So I've read a ton of threads on various forums, and talked in person with a couple of San Soo black belts that trained directly under Jimmy Woo in the 60's and 70's. This is what I have gleaned so far:

The Jimmy Woo (James Wing Woo) of Kempo & Ed Parker fame is NOT the same Jimmy Woo of San Soo. Period.

Jimmy Woo (San Soo) and Ark Wong both knew Ed Parker, and Ed came to both of them to try to add more "kung-fu" to his Japanese karate style he was still adding to. From what I've been told, he spent much more time with Ark Wong, they (Jimmy or Ark) certainly never learned anything from Ed Parker.

Jimmy Woo origionally called his style Karate, and then Karate-Kung fu due to the percieved popularity of the Japanese martial arts back then, and since he was catering to non-Chinese students, named his style to attract the most amount of students. Supposedly, he later regreted doing that and wished he had simply called it Kung-Fu all along. He opened his school a few years before Ark Wong did, and nobody knew what Kung-Fu was until Ark opened the first named Kung-Fu school.

There is a direct lineage to CLF in the San Soo tree due to the whole five famillies thing, but in my inexpert opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean that San Soo is CLF, or that there is much if any CLF in the style per se.

What I want to know is since San Soo and Ark Wongs five families appear to be the same, are they in fact the same? Is there some sort of cross pollination, or simply a common ancestor(s) - but the arts evolved over time into completely different styles?

I can't help but draw parallels between Jimmy and Ark, as they both trained for approximately the same amount of years in China, and emmigrated to the U.S. at about the same ages (just different years, as Ark was older). In the big scheme of things, I wonder how much knowledge they really had obtained in that relatively short amount of time - I say short because I sort of envision a "master" having trained for umpteen years and maybe after 30-40 years of continous training, are "masters" of the art. But what do I know? I can't say that they didn't learn their entire respective styles in full before coming over here at age 21 or so.

[hskwarrior]

From 1920's until the 1980's the only known choy lee fut master in america was Lau Bun. Ed Parker picked up CLF stuff from Lau Bun's people which can be verified through their lineage. Refer to their form #4. Ed parker used to spend time with Lau Bun who used to sell him Dit Da Jow for 500 dollars a gallon.

and based on what jimmy was saying, i believe he is saying its not CLF.

[Mulong]

David I know that, but within my private collection I have a Jimmy H. Woo demonstrating a set which has resemblance to cailifoquan.

Hskwarrior, question did James Wing Woo, actually learned with Lau Shifu?

[Mulong]

Let’s try to clarify this:

First is Jimmy H. Woo and second is James Wing Woo; hence, two different individuals.

[Dale Dugas]

does that look like Choy Lay Fut to you?

Looks like most of the American Kenpo/Kempo based systems/material you see now.

No CLF in any of those movements that I saw.

And this does not mean that Woo was not a good fighter etc. The man seemed capable of using his material.

[hskwarrior]

Hskwarrior, question did James Wing Woo, actually learned with Lau Shifu?

Hard to say. Lau sifu influenced many people back then. Even the kajukenbo people have been influenced by Lau Sifu. yet, there are rumors that Jimmy was friends with Lau Sifu, and stories of them debt collecting together. still hard to confirm.

[lkfmdc]

Looks like most of the American Kenpo/Kempo based systems/material you see now.

No CLF in any of those movements that I saw.

And this does not mean that Woo was not a good fighter etc. The man seemed capable of using his material.

Ah, Dale got IT! Thanks Dale

And AGAIN, I know the difference between Wing Woo and Jimmy Woo of San Soo (wow, that is like rap LOL)

The San Soo guy was ALSO associated with Parker

[Grasshopper101]

As I mentioned before, Ed Parker did hang around with Jimmy for a while, but he visited a lot of studios and absorbed parts from many sources.

Ditto for Bruce Lee. Bruce went to both Jimmy and Ark and wanted to learn from them, but from what I heard Jimmy wanted Bruce to start out as a white belt and Bruce walked.

Since we all know that Jimmy and his style pre-dated anything Ed Parker was working on, to me the San Soo/Kenpo connection is one directional. Ed learned karate, and then picked up a bunch of kung fu from various people and added it to his art. Maybe he tried to emmulate San Soo in his approach to techniques and punching and kicking combinations? That may be so, as traditional karate tended to focus on only a couple of powerful strikes in it's techniques and looks nothing like the techniques of Kenpo except for the kicks and some of the hand strikes.

Back to my original question - how does the five families being listed for both Woo's and Wong's styles play out, and are the arts at all connected?

[SIFU RON]

Your questions ( which date back to 10/25/2010 ) are old news to us here on the forum.

I have a question for you Grasshopper 101

who are you ?

what is your contact information other than this froum ?

thank you

Ron Shewmaker

[Mulong]

The only correlation is that all were practicing what I like to refer to as pre-twentieth century Southern style which weren’t influenced by development of the Jingwu or Goushou.

Also, the use of square horse stance was the nucleus of their respective styles.

It is interesting, how Art Wong, Lau Bun, and Wong Tim Yuen influenced so many individuals directly or indirectly.

[bawang]

[FONT="Georgia"]The only correlation is that all were practicing what I like to refer to as pre-twentieth century Southern style which weren’t influenced by development of the Jingwu or Goushou.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duamnzfKI3E

3:10 this is old southern style.

san soo looks obviously made up

[Grasshopper101]

I think I may have answered my own questions with more use of the search feature - I ran across these posts which I'm going to copy and paste:

KUNGFU SAN SOO IS A CHINESE MARTIAL ART.

The man who brought it to the United States was known as Jimmy Haw Woo. His name in China was Chan Siu Dek or Chan Sau Zeok (depending on how you want to write Cantonese.)

The art is related to Choy Li Fut.

Jimmy had a number of teachers as a boy growing up in Toisan China. His Uncle Chan Siu Hung oversaw his instruction.

Chan Siu Hung was an adoptive son or stepson of Chan Heung. He learned Choy Li Fut from Chan Heung and Chan Koon Pak. Later he moved to Toisan and opened a Dit Da Medical Clinic and Martial Arts School.

To the best of my knoweledge I say the art is related to Choy Li Fut because, in addition to Choy Li Fut, Jimmy learned what many San Soo practioners call the 5 Family System. This is the same system the venerable master Ark Yuey Wong learned from Abbot Pang at the Guandong Branch of the Shaolin temple. This was the same style taught at the local Toisan temple dedicated to Guan Yin until the Japanese occupation during WWII.

Tsoi or Choy
Li
Ho or Hoi or Mok
Fut or Fat
Hung

Jimmy called what he taught "Karate-Kungfu" for marketing reasons. Very few Americans knew what Kungfu was but they knew what Karate was. Later on he started calling it Kungfu San Soo. He called it San Soo, because he focused on practical fighting and principles of fighting. San Soo does not have a lot of flashy moves but it very effective. Our students usually will not participate in tournaments of any sort because we fight very dirty. My experience with San Soo is that it has less to do with fighting and more to do with conflict resolution. That is to say, why waste time trying to fight someone when you can just finish the confrontation with some strategic thinking and effective economic technique.

The man who faught Jon Marsh was a San Soo Master but he was not very experienced with ring fighting. Jon Marsh is a professional fighter and he did a very good job that day. My respects to both Jon Marsh and Scott. At least they both got into the ring and faced eachother.

Salute,
Eric Thomson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There are many people that will say that San Soo is not affiliated in any way with Choi Li Fut. However, those same people will insist that Chan Siu Hung was Jimmy Woo’s main teacher. In any event, Chan Siu Hung was a well-known person in the Toisan area. Chan Heung and Chan On Pak, his teachers, had such high regard for him as a disciple of Choi Li Fut that Chan Yiu Chi, Chan Heung’s Grandson, devoted all of Chapter 46 in his book The History of Choy Li Fut to Chan Siu Hung. The book is still in manuscript form and is held by the Chan Family Martial Arts Association (i.e. Chan Yong Fa the Great Grandson of Chan Heung, the Jung Merng of Hung Sing Gwoon and Wing Sing Tong.)

http://clfma.com/modules.php?op=modl...158&forum=1&10

Those Masters of San Soo who do not want to accept this information are those that have foreclosed on a particular version of reality and cannot stand to be presented with any new information. For them, maintaining that San Soo is a unique art that Jimmy only taught to them and that it’s now dead in China is a matter of faith and ego. There are some San Soo Masters that do believe that San Soo and Choi Li Fut are related. One notable 1st Generation Master is Tom Akers.

http://groups.msn.com/ChinSiuDekHing...pgmarket=en-us

http://www.sansoosifuakers.com/about.html

Jimmy Woo was never very forthcoming about his past. Sometimes he intentionally mislead people and changed the subject when asked about his past. If I am to take at face value what my instructors tell me, Jimmy said that San Soo and Choi Li Fut were not the same but related. This is because Jimmy’s other teachers (his grandfather and uncles.) taught him the Five Family system. This is similar to how the late Ark Yuey Wong was trained, Ark Wong learned in the Monastery in Guangzhou and Jimmy learned in Pang Tang Village Toisan. According to 1st Generation Master Ron Gatewood, publisher of the San Soo Journal and author of Kung Fu San Soo: The Secret Art of Fighting Monks, Ark Wong and Jimmy Woo were related. They were probably cousins. Jimmy often would go up to L.A.’s Chinatown to visit with Ark Wong whom he referred to endearingly as Cousin Wong or Old Wong. See Ark Yuey Wong’s lineage on this page:

http://www.dokungfu.com/tkaa/templestyle.html

Now regarding whether San Soo exists in China. San Soo was a name that Jimmy used to describe what it was he was teaching us. To him San Soo meant The Practical Art of Fighting. Try to think of the words San Soo as a marketing tool. This way you won’t get fouled up in the semantics of “well SAN SOO doesn’t exist in China.” Because San Soo or more correctly 5 Family Fists and Choy Li Fut still exist in China today. It is true that a great number of Chan Siu Hung’s students and family members were gunned down by the Japanese, but Chan Siu Hung’s son Chan Sai Mo (or Chen Shi Wu – mandarin) is still alive. He taught a number of people the small circle style of Choy Li Fut. He even has a disciple in Toronto Canada. Master Paul Chan of the Hong Luck Kungfu Club.

http://www.hongluck.org/clf_origins.htm

Regarding documentation of the art. Jimmy had some manuscripts from China. These are proverbial Holy Grail to most San Soo practitioners. Many of the first generation masters have seen Jimmy pouring over the books before and after practice. They are believed to be Martial Art and Medicinal Manuals produced at Kwan Yin Monastery during the Ming Dynasty. Unfortunately, the books disappeared after Jimmy’s death. So just about anybody can say anything they like about the books. For that matter they can say Jimmy told me this and Jimmy told me that, because he died in 1991. The truth is that we will never really know. But if you are still not sure that San Soo is a Chinese, think about this: Jimmy was Chinese raised in China, he learned Martial Arts from his family members who were Chinese and learned their art from other Chinese people. That’s good enough for me. If that’s still not good enough for you, you can come and check out one of our classes.

Monday and Wednesday nights (this Summer) 7 – 10pm at Saddleback College room# PE 306. 28000 Marguerite Pkwy., Mission Viejo, CA 92692

If you have had experience with Chinese Martial Arts you will be able to see that our techniques are similar to many Southern Styles.


Merryprankster,

I assume that you are saying that I think sparring is too hard. To the contrary, I like sparring. I’ve done a lot of sparring and I believe it is good experience. Anybody who knows me will tell you that.

Wushu Chik,

Any San Soo master can say what they want about our style being deadly etc. I will say it’s true. Our art is very formidable. However, it’s only as good as it’s practitioners. I think it is possible for a person to be a great street fighter and be poor at sparring. There is a story about a tournament Jimmy Woo participated in back in San Francisco in 1965. He was disqualified for kneeing a guy in the groin. This is typical of the way we fight. Lots of stomps on the knees, takedowns, Chin Na, finishes etc. I believe that if a San Soo person really wanted to dedicate themselves to learning how to spar and trained hard etc they could be a great fighter. In fact one of 7th Degree Black Belt, Lee Shadowbear did quite well in NHB competitions a few years ago. The problem is that if they are participating in martial sport like sparring we, the San Soo Community, don’t really consider that as doing San Soo.

As far as never really being documented is concerned, that’s a pretty safe pot shot to take because you know that many records and documents have been lost in China over the last 100 years because of the terrible state of upheaval the country was in before, during and after WWII.

Respectfully,
Eric Thomson

[Grasshopper101]

The only correlation is that all were practicing what I like to refer to as pre-twentieth century Southern style which weren’t influenced by development of the Jingwu or Goushou.

Also, the use of square horse stance was the nucleus of their respective styles.

It is interesting, how Art Wong, Lau Bun, and Wong Tim Yuen influenced so many individuals directly or indirectly.

I'm not familiar with Jingwu and Goushou. My wikipedia search in Jingwu turned up some information, but not for Goushou.

[Grasshopper101]

Your questions ( which date back to 10/25/2010 ) are old news to us here on the forum.

I have a question for you Grasshopper 101

who are you ?

what is your contact information other than this froum ?

thank you

Ron Shewmaker

I'm sorry if this is old news to all you guys, but I just wanted to know. I appreciate any and all information you all can pass on, and obviously I need to become more adept at using the search feature.

[JamesC]

Your questions ( which date back to 10/25/2010 ) are old news to us here on the forum.

I have a question for you Grasshopper 101

who are you ?

what is your contact information other than this froum ?

thank you

Ron Shewmaker

He's allowed to ask.

Here's a link on Chin Woo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Woo_Athletic_Association

Here's one on the Central Guoshu Institute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Guoshu_Institute

That's wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but it should at least get you started and help you with finding more info if you so desire.

[JamesC]

I'm sorry if this is old news to all you guys, but I just wanted to know. I appreciate any and all information you all can pass on, and obviously I need to become more adept at using the search feature.

Your biggest hurdle is probably the spellings. There are numerous ways to spell the pronunciation of the same words.

Refer to my previous post for more info.

[Grasshopper101]

He's allowed to ask.

Here's a link on Chin Woo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Woo_Athletic_Association

Here's one on the Central Guoshu Institute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Guoshu_Institute

That's wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but it should at least get you started and help you with finding more info if you so desire.

Thanks for the info! I see why I didn't find it - goushou vs guoshu

[Grasshopper101]

Ok, more digging turned up more info, and I've pretty much distilled my findings into a few points:

* Jimmy Woo and Ark Wong's "five families" are one and the same.

* Jimmy and Ark may have actually been related - cousins

* Jimmy had probably around 6-14 years of formal kung fu training (some in Choy Li Fut), but was a poor student and discarded those elements he didn't find useful for actual fighting, namely forms. He also learned some other style(s) related to the Chin family.

* Jimmy was a well known troublemaker and brawler, and was only interested in teaching what he felt really worked in real fights, and arranged his style accordingly when he named it San Soo.

* Later, when his American students craved a more "Chinese" connection and a "complete art," he went to his buddy/relative Ark Wong and picked up empty hand and weapons forms and added it to what he already knew from his early years. That would also explain why the San Soo weapons forms are clumsy, and hand forms can be done with both a weapon or empty handed. That doesn't really make sense, and while that can work with small weapons such as knives or sticks, looks nothing like most weapons sets from any other kung fu style. I should point out that this theory is completely mine alone, and I haven't seen anybody else suggest it directly, but I'm going to take the leap and wait for the smackdown.

My conclusion is Jimmy's San Soo is based 100% on CMA he learned in China, and was a great fighter in his own right, and essentially did with Kung-Fu what Bruce Lee tried to do later - distill down what actually works in a real fight to defend your life.

I have a question, though: Ark wong taught Five element fist and Hop Gar Lama in addition to his Five Family and Five Animals styles. Where did he pick those up, and after watching Hop Gar Lama on YouTube, doesn't some of the movements look kind of like what Jimmy Woo was doing in early San Soo videos? Just a little?

[lkfmdc]

It's funny, the ONLY people I have ever heard make claim that Ark Wong did Hop gar are the SAN SOO PEOPLE

No offense to Ark Wong (who is respected) but no one in the Lion's Roar/Lama/Pak HOk/Hop Ga community has ever heard of him doing our tradition

Might I add, there has NEVER been a single SHRED of evidence that Jimmy Woo ever trained under Chan Siu Hung

[Mulong]

David the same goes for Wong Shifu relationship with huhng kyuhn, but if you look closely he immigrated to the states in the 1920’s, making unlikely he practiced Wong Fei Hung version of Huhng Fist or Lama.

[lkfmdc]

David the same goes for Wong Shifu relationship with huhng kyuhn, but if you look closely he immigrated to the states in the 1920’s, making unlikely he practiced Wong Fei Hung version of Huhng Fist or Lama.

But he could have EASILY done any other version of hung fist

[SIFU RON]

Well - grasshopper101, you never answered my question !

Who are you ?

Identify yourself to all of us here on the forum and include verification.

[Grasshopper101]

I am not a troll, and I'm not sure who you want me to identify myself as to you, as I'm not anybody of note or particular importance. Nor am I sure how to verify who I am in any particular sense that will mean anything to anybody.

I Pm'd you with my email address, so if you would like to contact me I am more than willing to provide you with whatever you are looking for - otherwise, I hesitate to post my personal information on a web forum for the general public to see.

I didn't intend to troll if thats what you think I was doing - I had questions, asked for feed back, received a little, and pretty much just drew my own conclusions on what I could find on the internet and youtube. I realize that my conclusions may be wrong, and I would welcome to point out the errors of my leaps to judgement.

[Grasshopper101]

It's funny, the ONLY people I have ever heard make claim that Ark Wong did Hop gar are the SAN SOO PEOPLE

No offense to Ark Wong (who is respected) but no one in the Lion's Roar/Lama/Pak HOk/Hop Ga community has ever heard of him doing our tradition

Might I add, there has NEVER been a single SHRED of evidence that Jimmy Woo ever trained under Chan Siu Hung

I got the Lion's Roar/Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Ga info off Ark Yuey Wong's wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_Yuey_Wong

Just to appease the tin foil hat alliance, I did not edit that wikipedia page!

[lkfmdc]

I got the Lion's Roar/Lama/Pak Hok/Hop Ga info off Ark Yuey Wong's wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_Yuey_Wong



shirley, you must be joking

[dirtyrat]

shirley, you must be joking

he's not joking. and don't call him surely. :D

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Mulong View Post
It is interesting, how Art Wong, Lau Bun, and Wong Tim Yuen influenced so many individuals directly or indirectly.

I agree. those were the first three set of masters to begin teaching in america. all were good friends too.

[Mulong]

Interesting, I wasn’t aware that; this is a particular period we should focus on the true pioneers of CMA in the States, before the Bruce Lee boom.

Thanks Frank for sharing your knowledge…

[hskwarrior]

Interesting, I wasn’t aware that; this is a particular period we should focus on the true pioneers of CMA in the States, before the Bruce Lee boom.

Thanks Frank for sharing your knowledge…

you're welcome brother. when i was doing my research my sigung told me that his sifu (Lau Bun) was here first, then Ark Wong, then T.Y. Wong. Oh yeah Mah Sek was here too. not sure when he arrived to the states tho.

You know there is one Hung Gar master i'd like to get info on. his name was Chan Heung but not the CLF Chan Heung of course. he was a stout man.

[SIFU RON]

These 3 men contributed to the beginning of Kung Fu and martail Arts in the USA.

Your information Grasshopper101 is incorrect. I wonder, why you hide your personal idenity form us here on this forum, An e-mail contact means nothing.

I trained with Gm Ark Y Wong from 1959 - 1985. Jim Anestasi and I are his first non Chinese students. Wanna read about it Grasshopper101 go to http://wahquekungfu.proboards100.com

Grasshopper 101 you posted Jimmy Woo and Ark Wong's ( five families are one in the same ) this is false.

Ark Y Wong taught Taditional Chinese Kung Fu. He taught tradional 5 Family Style Kung Fu. He became known as the five family style because whenever he perofrmed in public he always did an animal set and back in those days few if anyone had ever seem Kung Fu. As has been pointed out before on this from there is no " five aninal style ' all tradinal Chinese Kung Fu Styles have the animals in them.

IKFMDC has pointed out Jimmy Woo taught Kempo Karate, he is correct. I met Jimmy Woo at Ark Wong's pace,he bought books and on occasion a weapon.I use to vist Jimmy Woo at his School in Covina , and watch his classes . I like the way he taught.

James Wing Woo taught tradional chinese Kung Fu, I met him many times, a fine man. His Kung Fu was 100% Kung Fu.

Jimmy Woo and Ark Wong are not cousins thats a joke.

Your words Grasshopper101 are meaningless , people that post on this forum without proof of identification of whom they are , are not taken seriously, they fall into the troll catagory.

Ron Shewmaker

[Mulong]

Frank, are you aware there was a student of Lahm Sih Wihng/ Lín, Shìróng 林世荣, living in Bay Area; one of my shifu accidently mention him.

Sifu Ron, thank you for that informative response; I’m truly curious about this period which sadly hasn’t been well documented.

[hskwarrior]

Lau Bun- Ark wong - jimmy woo - james wing woo
These 4 men contributed to the beginning of Kung Fu and martail Arts in the USA.

there. fixed that for you.


Lín, Shìróng 林世荣

when was he here?

[lkfmdc]

IKFMDC has pointed out Jimmy Woo taught Kempo Karate, he is correct. I met Jimmy Woo at Ark Wong's pace,he bought books and on occasion a weapon.I use to vist Jimmy Woo at his School in Covina , and watch his classes . I like the way he taught.

Ron Shewmaker

I am going to save this post for eternity, thanks

[Grasshopper101]

I am going to save this post for eternity, thanks

I bet you will!

[Grasshopper101]

These 3 men contributed to the beginning of Kung Fu and martail Arts in the USA.

Your information Grasshopper101 is incorrect. I wonder, why you hide your personal idenity form us here on this forum, An e-mail contact means nothing.

I trained with Gm Ark Y Wong from 1959 - 1985. Jim Anestasi and I are his first non Chinese students. Wanna read about it Grasshopper101 go to http://wahquekungfu.proboards100.com

Grasshopper 101 you posted Jimmy Woo and Ark Wong's ( five families are one in the same ) this is false.

Ark Y Wong taught Taditional Chinese Kung Fu. He taught tradional 5 Family Style Kung Fu. He became known as the five family style because whenever he perofrmed in public he always did an animal set and back in those days few if anyone had ever seem Kung Fu. As has been pointed out before on this from there is no " five aninal style ' all tradinal Chinese Kung Fu Styles have the animals in them.

IKFMDC has pointed out Jimmy Woo taught Kempo Karate, he is correct. I met Jimmy Woo at Ark Wong's pace,he bought books and on occasion a weapon.I use to vist Jimmy Woo at his School in Covina , and watch his classes . I like the way he taught.

James Wing Woo taught tradional chinese Kung Fu, I met him many times, a fine man. His Kung Fu was 100% Kung Fu.

Jimmy Woo and Ark Wong are not cousins thats a joke.

Your words Grasshopper101 are meaningless , people that post on this forum without proof of identification of whom they are , are not taken seriously, they fall into the troll catagory.

Ron Shewmaker

I really don't know what you want from me - my name, address, phone number, DOB, and social security number? Really? I don't know who you think I am, but I can assure you that whoever you think I may be - I'm not, and other than my posts a couple of months ago, I've never visited, registered, or posted on this forum.

Like I said, I will be happy to communicate with you in private to establish whatever identity you are looking for, but the fact is unregistered visitors are able to read any thread on here, and forgive me for not wanting to publish my personal information as I am not a member of Lifelock.

As far as the information you posted, I have a couple of questions:

Five families - the listings I found for the five families on various San Soo and Ark Wong websites list them as the same. Are they just similar names, are the "five families" generic in the sense that many styles can claim to be decended from them, or is there a specific style that is specific that he taught?

Also, you said Jimmy H. Woo taught Kenpo. Can you elaborate on that with specifics, as the San Soo people I talked to are very opposed to that idea.

[lkfmdc]

Don't you see why people think you are a troll?

You post outrageous claims with no evidence and ALSO not identify yourself

So it looks like the only point of what you are posting is to cause controversy




Five families - the listings I found for the five families on various San Soo and Ark
Wong websites list them as the same.



Maybe one group, since they don't have a real history to fall back upon, have just copied the other group's history? I'll leave it up to you to try and figure out which group is which




Also, you said Jimmy H. Woo taught Kenpo. Can you elaborate on that with specifics, as the San Soo people I talked to are very opposed to that idea.

Gee, why would the san soo people prefer to say they do a rare kung fu style as opposed to american kempo? Yeah, that's a mystery :rolleyes:

If you are not a troll, you are pretty dense. If you're not a troll, let me ask you , how old are you?

[Mulong]

Frank, I know he was alive back in late 90's; not sure he taught or not...

[Grasshopper101]

Don't you see why people think you are a troll?

You post outrageous claims with no evidence and ALSO not identify yourself

So it looks like the only point of what you are posting is to cause controversy



Maybe one group, since they don't have a real history to fall back upon, have just copied the other group's history? I'll leave it up to you to try and figure out which group is which



Gee, why would the san soo people prefer to say they do a rare kung fu style as opposed to american kempo? Yeah, that's a mystery :rolleyes:

If you are not a troll, you are pretty dense. If you're not a troll, let me ask you , how old are you?

So how can I identify myself? Post my high school year book photo or something? I have repeatedly offered for anyone to PM me and ask me whatever you want, but no one has taken me up on the offer so I really don't know what the flap is all about. Tell you what - you post your credit card number and secret code on the back on the forum first, then I will. I really don't understand why or what you guys are asking for in regards to that.

As far as my claims, what is outrageous? I've only reposted what I've gleaned by searching through other posts and just put it all together. Well, I asked for info, received a lot of looks but not much information, so I did the best I could with what I found.

Ark and Jimmy knew each other. Websites I look at for both styles list the EXACT same five families. People suggested that the may have been distantly related. Some people say Jimmy taught Kenpo, while others think thats a load of crap. Both guys emmigrated to the US at age 21. Where did they receive all of their training (Ark's is far better documented), but then again Ark was made a master at age 19 due to a great lion dance compeitition? Master of all the styles he taught?

Why is this trolling to ask these questions?

By the way, I'm 39.

[Kevin73]

I corresponded with one of Ed Parker's long time friends and students, Dr. Ron Chapel on the San Soo/Kenpo connection and was informed that back then lots of the martial artists would together and trade ideas and fighting concepts. It wasn't an issue of "studying" with them or being their student. For example, Bruce Lee had lots of contact with Ed Parker and even stayed with him awhile and went down to his school, but you wouldn't say that Lee was a student of Parker, Bruce also had some contact with the Kajukenbo crowd back then (CHA-3 branch I believe).

Dr. Chapel, went on to say that Woo and Parker exchanged ideas and Woo DID get alot of input from Parker on how to market his style and school, but neither one was a student of the other (I have also heard that Parker was in fact a student of San Soo, so the rumor goes both ways).

BTW Dr. Chapel was also a student of Ark Wong before studying with Ed Parker

[lkfmdc]

See, you are still acting like a troll




So how can I identify myself? Post my high school year book photo or something?



I didn't say you had to identify yourself, but I said that if you make outrageous claims AND don't identify yourself then you are making it seem like you are trolling




As far as my claims, what is outrageous?



telling people who have for DECADES been in the Mo Lam/Wu Lin that Ark Wong and Jimmy Woo are cousins, that their arts are the same, that Ark Wong did Hop Gar, etc etc etc etc

You do realize one of Ark Wong's TOP STUDENTS has already told you that you are wrong and you continue




Ark and Jimmy knew each other. Websites I look at....



Here's where you REALLY come off as a troll, you keep insisting based upon web sites you've read and on the other side you have the ACTUAL PEOPLE INVOLVED




Ark's is far better documented



That's called LOGIC and if you applied it more frequently you'd be having less grief





Why is this trolling to ask these questions?



because you've already been told by people directly involved that it's silly nonsense and yet you continue




By the way, I'm 39.

No way to say this nicely, but if that is true, pretty sad. You apparently lack basic common sense in how you are approaching this. If you were 16 or 23 I'd give you a little slack but at 39 you should know better

[Grasshopper101]

See, you are still acting like a troll



I didn't say you had to identify yourself, but I said that if you make outrageous claims AND don't identify yourself then you are making it seem like you are trolling



telling people who have for DECADES been in the Mo Lam/Wu Lin that Ark Wong and Jimmy Woo are cousins, that their arts are the same, that Ark Wong did Hop Gar, etc etc etc etc

You do realize one of Ark Wong's TOP STUDENTS has already told you that you are wrong and you continue



Here's where you REALLY come off as a troll, you keep insisting based upon web sites you've read and on the other side you have the ACTUAL PEOPLE INVOLVED



That's called LOGIC and if you applied it more frequently you'd be having less grief




because you've already been told by people directly involved that it's silly nonsense and yet you continue



No way to say this nicely, but if that is true, pretty sad. You apparently lack basic common sense in how you are approaching this. If you were 16 or 23 I'd give you a little slack but at 39 you should know better

I don't know if they are cousins or not and did not say they WERE, I said MAY BE - someone else suggested it and I brought it up.

Telling people that Ark Wong did Hop Gar? Dude, its on the wikipedia page, which I posted a link to. HOW does that make me a troll? Wouldn't the people who put it on wikipedia be the trolls?

Now, when I look at the arts as demonstrated by Ark and Jimmy, they don't look the same per se. However, I can see what I percieve to be a couple of similarities in some forms, but what I don't know is if that its coincidental because they are both southern kung fu, or something else. Since both list the same five families, I am still trying to figure out what that means, if anything. Nobody on here has offered any sort of insight on that yet. Instead, I get accused of not identifying myself.

So you get to have your own theory that San Soo is kenpo. How come I can't wonder why both Jimmy and Ark list the same five families?

Speaking of kenpo, although I'm not convinced yet that San Soo came from that, I am intrigued if there is any additional information out that that can shed some light on that angle.

[lkfmdc]

Telling people that Ark Wong did Hop Gar? Dude, its on the wikipedia page,



Like I said, a complete lack of common sense....

[Kevin73]

So you get to have your own theory that San Soo is kenpo. How come I can't wonder why both Jimmy and Ark list the same five families?

Speaking of kenpo, although I'm not convinced yet that San Soo came from that, I am intrigued if there is any additional information out that that can shed some light on that angle.

Read my post #57 on that.

Problem with the history of San Soo is that none of it can actually be traced to something. While Woo probably did have some training in kung fu and was probably a good fighter like people have said. The evidence kind of points to a made up history as to the origins of his art. Maybe he lists the same five families because of Wong's school/style because it was good marketing or they weren't really "family styles" but categories of technqies. When you read what each one represented it sounds more like this was the case with San Soo
http://www.realkungfusansoo.com/abouttheart.htm

[Grasshopper101]

Read my post #57 on that.

Problem with the history of San Soo is that none of it can actually be traced to something. While Woo probably did have some training in kung fu and was probably a good fighter like people have said. The evidence kind of points to a made up history as to the origins of his art. Maybe he lists the same five families because of Wong's school/style because it was good marketing or they weren't really "family styles" but categories of technqies. When you read what each one represented it sounds more like this was the case with San Soo
http://www.realkungfusansoo.com/abouttheart.htm

I did see your post, and I forgot to comment on it. Your post is along the lines of what I've been able to gather off the net and talking to some San Soo practicioners from back in the 60's and 70's.

To my untrained eye, what Jimmy did doesn't look like Kenpo, but I do see that the Kenpo techniques are just that - techniques, which causes it to look San Soo'ish in the sense that they are hitting a guy a bunch of times and often ending in some sort of a takedown.

As far as the five families go, from what I understand the San Soo techniques from each "family" represent a distinct sort of fighting style and application. One might focus on chin na type leverages, one might focus on throws, another on punching kicking combinations, etc. Supposedly, they are then all blended together and meant to be used at the same time and that is the pinnacle of the art, which is called top ga, but may have another spelling.

Now, apparently there is a five families style of kung fu that is taught as a complete style and is included in Ark Wong's teachings. The videos I saw on Youtube look nothing like San Soo. Is that the only five family style out there?

[Mulong]

Grasshopper, I'm curious what is your objective with this research; to write a book or do you think knowing this will improve your personal skills?:confused:

[Grasshopper101]

Mainly satisfy personal curiosity. I'm not an author, and i'm not getting anything except for grief!

[Grasshopper101]

On a side note, i chose this forum because when i was looking around for answers to some questions i had about ranks, the posters on here seemed pretty knowledgable.

[extrajoseph]

Eric Thomson did a lot of valuable research on Jimmy Haw-Woo (please refer to post 30 in this thread) and like Eric said Jimmy's art has connection to Choy Lee Fut. If you look at the five names Jimmy used to call his art, Choy Lee Haw (Ho) Fut Hung, he gave us the clues already.

There is Choy Lee Fut for obvious reasons and Haw or Ho referred to his adopted name, which he has to change from Chan Siu-Dek to Haw Woo when he came to America, and Hung referred to Chan Siu-Hung, his teacher in China, who taught him Choy Lee Fut.

What Jimmy was hinting to us was that he has modified Choy Lee Fut and Shaolin Kung Fu as taught to him in China to suit his newly adopted country, but it is still Shaolin Kung Fu (and not Japanese) by putting the characters Haw (Ho) and Hung (the adopted and the old) to either side of the character Fut.

"The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one." - Ockham's razor.

[lkfmdc]

This below has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever read!


Eric Thomson did a lot of valuable research on Jimmy Haw-Woo (please refer to post 30 in this thread) and like Eric said Jimmy's art has connection to Choy Lee Fut. If you look at the five names Jimmy used to call his art, Choy Lee Haw (Ho) Fut Hung, he gave us the clues already.

There is Choy Lee Fut for obvious reasons and Haw or Ho referred to his adopted name, which he has to change from Chan Siu-Dek to Haw Woo when he came to America, and Hung referred to Chan Siu-Hung, his teacher in China, who taught him Choy Lee Fut.

What Jimmy was hinting to us was that he has modified Choy Lee Fut and Shaolin Kung Fu as taught to him in China to suit his newly adopted country, but it is still Shaolin Kung Fu (and not Japanese) by putting the characters Haw (Ho) and Hung (the adopted and the old) to either side of the character Fut.

"The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one." - Ockham's razor.

So people are now claiming his REAL name is Chan, but he really used WOO but he also adopted Haw (ho)?

And he adopted "hung" because of CHAN siu hung, even though CHAN was that teacher's name

(MY GUESS, you don't really know which are family names and which are given because TWICE now you've mixed them up in a single post)

Has anyone ever been able to PROVE his real name was Chan?

Has anyone ever been able to PROVE he studied with Chan Siu Hung?

[hskwarrior]

Lou Sifu Chan Siu Dek A.K.A "Jimmy H. Woo"

Current mood:peaceful
San Soo » Jimmy H. Woo

Chan Siu Dek, aka "Jimmy H. Woo"

taken from this WEBSITE (http://www.myspace.com/real_fiction_/blog/448901374)

There's no question that the art of Kung Fu San Soo wouldn't be alive in America today if it was not for the legendary and mysterious fighter known as Jimmy H. Woo. And while most knew him as Jimmy, in Cantonese his real name was Chan Siu Dek, (Chen Shou Jue in Mandarin, Zhen She De in Pinyin, Chin Siu Dek in Hoisanese). We discuss the history of his art, Kung Fu San Soo, and his lineage, in depth in the history and lineage sections of this web site.

And we have to preface this section with our own disclosure. In the Kung Fu San Soo world, there is a great deal of confusion and personal divide about the memory of Chan Siu dek. We simply cannot pretend to speak for everyone or by absolute authority. Some of what we say here we actually remember ourselves from our time with him, although even those among us who were first generation students do not claim to have known him as well as the first generation masters who spent decades with him. Some things we attempt to document through outside sources. And some we simply hold to be 'accounts', and disclose them accordingly. We do our best to come as close as we can to the truth as we see it, although as with all of Kung Fu San Soo, it's a study in flux.

Family accounts now hold that Chan Siu Dek was born in Sanba Town, Taishan City, Guandong Province, China, in the early 1900's. He began training as a child, but we're unsure exactly how old he was. Various assertions range from four years old to seven years old, but he told one of us his father started teaching him at six. As with many of the confusing accounts, the disparity could be something as simple as this: he may have begun form practice on his own at four, began to learn technique from his father at six, and began formal training at seven. That would be a perfectly logical explanation for the kind of variation we have with respect to all memorable accounts about the art. We simply don't know.

But we have heard that according to an interview with his cousin, Chan Sai Mo, son of Chan Siu Dek's great uncle, Chan Siu Hung, conducted in China on October 28, 2003, his formal training was exclusively in the art of Choy Li Fut. Chan Sai Mo said he did not know if Chan Siu Dek studied any other family of Chinese martial art after leaving China. Chan Sai Mo also said Chan Siu Dek's first trainer was a distant cousin, Wing Cheung, a student of Chan Siu Dek's great uncle, Chan Siu Hung. When Wing Cheung sustained a leg injury, Chan Siu Hung took over his training. Some recent accounts through Chan Sai Mo also suggest that in addition to Chan Siu Hung's Hero's Victory, Hung Sing Choy Li Fut training, Chan Siu Hung studied Hung Gar and Eagle Claw, suggesting that Chan Siu Dek may possibly have known at least something of those art families as well. We know nothing more about Wing Cheung, but Chan Siu Dek's own accounts hold his great uncle largely responsible for both his martial training and the development of his fighting character.

Everyone who knew him seem to remember him as a person so confident, so colorful, that almost no one ever forgot him. Smug as we are in an age of Caged Fights, "No Hold's Barred" Mixed Martial Arts competitions, and video tapes of desperately brutal underground fights, few today can even remotely envision the kind of person who would stand up at a Kung Fu San Soo demonstration before hundreds in a venue like the Los Angeles County Fair — a county of millions, and not a place known to be particularly tame — and invite anyone who thought he might be tough enough to come up and fight him, on the spot, and with a conviction that was downright chilling.

"You might speak more better English", he would calmly say with a confident smile, pointing his finger right at various individuals in the crowd. "You might play more better music. But I doubt very much if you a better fighter! But if you think you are," he'd say, his demeanor hardening and eyes narrowing, "I invite you to come up and prove it, right now! You life or mine!"

This could be in front of virtually anyone, of any size, and of any fighting background. When he demonstrated before representatives of the other Chinese martial arts schools, we remember him calling out, "You all know who I am. You know what I can do. If you think your Kung Fu is better than mine, come and prove it now." To our knowledge, no one ever successfully did, although many probably wanted to with great desperation, and there are stories of a few who tried.

His was always a full public challenge. He fought so many times only the visible scars might hint at his true inner experience. Several reports hold that by the age of 20, he had lost so many teeth by fighting that he had to be fitted with dentures. He possessed an astounding range of martial skills, so large in fact that first generation masters are still having difficulty placing all his skills into known Chinese martial 'styles'. And in the end, he died of old age. This is without a doubt, the right stuff, the stuff from which legends are made.

Individuals who never witnessed these challenges have a great deal of difficulty imagining them to be true. What they fail to take into account is the rare set of circumstances that occassionally come together to make a person great in any given field. Chan Siu Dek was first a fighter by nature. His great uncle not only taught him technique, but constantly urged him to fight with others around him in the streets of China from his early childhood to test and employ those techniques. He also learned the uncommon skill of almost completely dissassociating himself from consequences.

He would rather kill than loose a fight. He would rather die. So any opponent had to face a tough fighter, trained and practiced at techniques designed to injure, maim, or kill, and was perfectly willing to go to the extreme in an escalation. And that extreme was not unlike the 100 pound woman who goes mad, requiring five strong men to place her in a straight jacket, or the teen ager who lifts an automobile off of his injured brother with his bare hands. These traits did not make Chan Siu Dek unbeatable, but they definitely made him formidable. While Kung Fu San Soo is a remarkable fighting art — admittedly among many notable fighting arts — perhaps the art did not so much make Chan Siu Dek a great fighter, as his instructional efforts, real world examples, and training methods made Kung Fu San Soo a great art for true fighters.

In the center of all this, unable to take him on face to face, there were those who made attacks on his character, sometimes attempting to connect him with Chinese organized crime. But anyone purchasing into these attacks know almost nothing about Chinese American history. To understand anything about the man, one must put this all into context.

from the same article follows:

"For years, Chan Siu Dek taught through the Los Angeles Sing Kang or "cousin's club". But somehow the lineage never caught on and no one seems to know of a descendent school from the Sing Kang."

The Sing Keung - my sigung Jew Leung was a president of this youth group in SF- is a youth group of the Hop Sing Tong. it was not a gung fu school. Jimmy Woo may have taught gung fu "FOR" Sing Kueng but it is not a SCHOOL per say. you will find no outside lineages of Sing Keung.

The same goes for the Hong Ying Ser -the youth group for the Ghee Kung Tong- in which i am the VP - Hong Ying will never have lineages that spawn from it. Same for Sing Keung. it belongs solely to the Hop Sing Tong. there will be no lineages spawning from it. people can claim their teachers taught for Sing Kueng or Hong Ying Ser but thats about it.


He left Los Angeles for San Francisco just about the time Chan Siu Dek arrived. Some accounts have Chan Siu Dek replacing Lau Bun as security consultant for the Hop Sing Tong.

Jimmy may have taken over for the Hop Sing Los Angeles branch, but he did not REPLACE him as Lau Bun was sent to San Francisco to teach for the Hop Sing Tong here.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You are shooting at your own foot again. First you insisted that I lied and then quoted a website that gave exactly the same information:

1) Jimmy H Woo's real Chinese name was Chan Siu-Dek.
2) He studied with Chan Siu-Hung.
3) He has roots in Choy Lee Fut.

He insisted that he was born in Hawaii until the end of his life, thereby implying that he was an American citizen by birth under the Fourteenth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution, and always went by his assumed legal name, Jimmy H. Woo. This is particularly poignant because he was in fact a member of the very famous Choy Li Fut Chan clan with roots going all the way back to Chan Heung, the founder of Choy Li Fut, and while he did often assert it, he really freely couldn't use it to publicly support his art.

[extrajoseph]

This below has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever read!

So people are now claiming his REAL name is Chan, but he really used WOO but he also adopted Haw (ho)?

And he adopted "hung" because of CHAN siu hung, even though CHAN was that teacher's name

(MY GUESS, you don't really know which are family names and which are given because TWICE now you've mixed them up in a single post)

Has anyone ever been able to PROVE his real name was Chan?

Has anyone ever been able to PROVE he studied with Chan Siu Hung?

His adopted Chinese name was Haw Woo (Jimmy is a western add-on), most likely Haw or Ho in Cantonese was the surname and not Woo, because Chinese use their surname first.

He used the character "Hung" instead of Chan to denote his teacher because their name came from the same generation using "Siu" as the middle name - Chan Siu-Hung and Chan Siu-Dek, because the first two characters are the same, it does not make sense to use Chan the surname since they both have the same surname.

I am Cantonese so I am familiar with Chinese names and I have met Chan Siu-Hung's son in China. San Soo has roots in Choy Lee Fut is not that absurd, given the social and political situation Jimmy H Woo went through at the time.

[extrajoseph]

nah, you lie about everything. you are not to be trusted as a source of information. you're a seasonal individual. you're info changes with the seasons......

I'm clearly saying you are not to be trusted as a source of info.

Frank,

Personal attack do not contribute to any worthwhile discussions. It is not the first time and it won't be the last; I'd take note and let it pass.

[lkfmdc]

most likely Haw or Ho in Cantonese was the surname and not Woo



Except when he claimed his family name was "Woo" and in Cantonese "Ng" :rolleyes:




He used the character "Hung" instead of Chan to denote his teacher because their name came from the same generation using "Siu" as the middle name - Chan Siu-Hung and Chan Siu-Dek,



If you are actually Cantonese how can you type that with a straight face?




San Soo has roots in Choy Lee Fut is not that absurd,



Again, where is there ANY EVIDENCE of this? Any evidence at all.....

[hskwarrior]

Personal attack do not contribute to any worthwhile discussions. It is not the first time and it won't be the last; I'd take note and let it pass.

the truth hurts don't it? lol

[extrajoseph]

Except when he claimed his family name was "Woo" and in Cantonese "Ng" :rolleyes:

If you are actually Cantonese how can you type that with a straight face?

Again, where is there ANY EVIDENCE of this? Any evidence at all.....

The surname could be both but no written character was given so we can only guess and I think Jimmy wanted that way. Haw (Ho), Woo (Gg) are both surnames and can also be the second character in a name.

Some of the San Soo first generation went back to China and did their research, they tracked down Chan Siu-Hung's descendants and compared notes but like most historical evidence not written down (and even if they did), each side will argue the opposite. So what good is evidence to a believer?

Again, I think Jimmy wanted that way. I am an overseas Chinese as well, we really don't want to leave our home land but circumstances forced us to, so we have to decide either to adopt and change or to hold onto our tradition and culture like a die-hard, everyone deals with it in a different way.

I cannot change what you want to believe in, this is a discussions forum so I just throw in some of my takes on the subject, ones that I think I know a little about or have an interest, take it or leave, it but please don't be like Frank, personal attack hurts and get us nowhere.

Play the ball and not the player.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I didn't made up anything or just guessing, my take was based on research done by some of Jimmy H Woo's students.

http://sansoosifu.bravehost.com/GreatUncle.html

Interesting, part of the notes says CLFNole asked the question, and Sisuk Howard Choy answered the question. You know both of them, why not ask them for a verification?

[hskwarrior]

Interesting, part of the notes says CLFNole asked the question, and Sisuk Howard Choy answered the question. You know both of them, why not ask them for a verification?

Like i said. i'm not arguing about jimmy woo. im stating that when YOU are talking, no one should really believe you. this is from personal experience. i don't need anyone to back that up, i don't need historical manuals or whatever....the proof is out there about you being a misinformationist.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

The topic of this thread is San So and Five Families, not about how you dislike me, it gets a bit boring after all these years. Please send me a private email if you want to continue to insult me, I can always throw it into the junk bin.

[Grasshopper101]

Hi Frank,

I didn't made up anything or just guessing, my take was based on research done by some of Jimmy H Woo's students.

http://sansoosifu.bravehost.com/GreatUncle.html

Interesting, part of the notes says CLFNole asked the question, and Sisuk Howard Choy answered the question. You know both of them, why not ask them for a verification?

That website offered a ton of information! Now that i understand the san soo five families (thanks!), how do they correspond to ark wongs five families, or do they at all?

[extrajoseph]

I don't think they are the same, even the names are different and they referred to different things, but I could be wrong since I studied neither styles.

[hskwarrior]

The surname could be both but no written character was given so we can only guess and I think Jimmy wanted that way.


I didn't made up anything or just guessing,


I don't think they are the same, even the names are different and they referred to different things, but I could be wrong since I studied neither styles.

LMAO at how you even lie to yourself.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

When I am not sure of something I say so, that is not lying to myself, that is being honest.

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

When I am not sure of something I say so, that is not lying to myself, that is being honest.

yeah ok thanks.

http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/thumbs/2008/Mar/24/290519_835_avatar.gif?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e 92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bad6924d47dad5fad5&ec_rate=300

[villain]

Wow, kinda an aggressive and passionate thread :) not sure I should even weigh in, but I'm gonna anyway :)
I have read through and read history on Jimmy and such cause I recently started studying at a San Soo school in Colorado, but I wouldn't call me a crazy loyalist or anything. And despite the drama about history and such, I would say that having done San Soo for ~6 months now, I feel like it is definitely southern Kung Fu and at least somehow related to Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar. I studied Hung Gar and some Choy Li Fut with a VERY traditional Vietnamese Sifu for about 4 years, and after a couple years off and distance separating me from my teacher, I started at this place. While no doubt it is a unique systematic interpretation of teaching methodology in it's application, and to me kinda seems like it's sorta 'americanized' (which I guess makes sense based in the history I have read), it definitely 'feels' like a practical application of what I learned for years in training with my old Sifu. And while my old Sifu probably wouldn't be a fan of the ass whipping kinda focus of what I'm doing now, I personally love it and have a great time training. I honestly don't care about much outside of that. Also, I'd note that I personally am a fan of the system that Jimmy put into place (so far anyway I guess), cause I know that was always the biggest challenge for my old Sifu. He was raised in Vietnam and was trained very traditionally...outside of dedicating your life to him and training with him daily, there was little in the way of a 'system' or defined structure, and he always struggled with that in this country (needless to say those classes were always very small :)).
Sorry, not sure if any of that is super relevant. I know I'm not on here often and rarely post, and there are some great martial artists and sifu's on here (and many that seem to like to brawl :)), so not trying to weigh in as an authority or anything. Just my 2c.

[Mulong]

villain, kudos on your response... :)

[boxerbilly]

Every time I point this out, a horde of Jimmy Wong people pop an important blood vessel in their head

Jimmy was totally associated with the Kempo guys, Ed parker in particular, and ran a "Karate Kempo" school for a while that suddenly became "san soo KUNG FU" after the kung fu craze hit

The whole thing about it being CLF or about him being part of the Chan family never seemed to come up while he was alive (hmmmmm :rolleyes: yeah)

after he passed away, a ton of his guys wanted CLF ranking

weird weird weird group

That is in correct. James Wing Woo taught Ed Parker at Parkers school along with Parkers students. That was not San Soo.

James H. Woo ( Jimmy Woo ) never taught Kenpo ever. Parker wanted to learn San Soo but refused to put on a white belt. Jimmy got sick of his **** and ran him out of his school.

There are 2 James Woo's. I believe they were also cousins. Not particulary close.

I believe most in San Soo believe San Soo is some form of Choy Lay Fut. I know nothing about some asking to recieve rank from others. It may be correct. Most I do not believe ever sought out anyone else for rank unless they wen there to study as beginners.

Grasshopper covered this. Oops.

Side note- Rudy Terlinden used to teach San Soo for Jimmy Woo at one of his schools. This clip says Silat. It is not. This is San Soo ! Very end is a little Silat. That is Rudys brother I believe. They both taught for Jimmy Woo. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xzqajezrw

[boxerbilly]

In the end. We are left with pieces. Fact is , in the beginning in America all these guys knew one another either personly or one person away kind of linage. WHY ? Because it was a small community. Who took what from who. Who had provable linage and who did not. That can lead one down another hole. Was Jimmy H Woo born in China or Hawaii. I was born in Hawaii by the way. Honolulu. Tripler Hosptial. Could Jimmy have said Hawaii because he was in this country illegally ? Born at a time his birth may not have been recorded in Hawaii ? He could take advantage of that but come out and say , I am from China and bye bye. He was married to a Mexican. So am I by the way. LOL. Do not marry a Mexican. No, I love her. My grandmother had no birth certifacate. Not registered. She was an Indian. Not sure when they/she finally got registered.

Did he make it all up ? Did he lie ? Did he withhold ? Does it matter either way ? One guy will believe this and another that. Until a new piece of information comes to light.
Who learned from who ? Who admitted it ? Who denied it ?

Did Oswald pull the trigger ? Was he ONI ? Smart as they come or as stupid as a stump ? Coiencidence he was surrounded by all those people in his life he should never have been around or following orders ? One guy will say, idiot ****er lost his nut and shot number 1 dead. I personally believe he died an active Marine. Can't prove it and cant prove he was not. He was never tried. Never testified.The Warren Commision is full of falsehood and coerced testimony. Ask my father who was a TOP. Sorry, MasterGunnerySergeant, in at that time and for 30+ total. "Oswald did it, that is was what we were told to believe. The End . "

My brother is a Major USMC. VMI class of well in the 80's. Both are retired. Me ? It don't matter.

[SIFU RON]

IMFMDC is 100% correct in everything he said. I was the in Los Angeles in those days , I studied from Ark Wong , I knew all of these guys. Jimmy Woo ( San Soo) came around Ark Wong's but he didn't study anything from Ark or Parker. Ed Parker did his own thing which was his kempo Karate,
San Soo is a mixture of odds and ends. James Wing Woo taught Kung Fu - he not related to Jimmy Woo.

erbilly;1288295]That is in correct. James Wing Woo taught Ed Parker at Parkers school along with Parkers students. That was not San Soo.

James H. Woo ( Jimmy Woo ) never taught Kenpo ever. Parker wanted to learn San Soo but refused to put on a white belt. Jimmy got sick of his **** and ran him out of his school.

[boxerbilly]

IMFMDC is 100% correct in everything he said. I was the in Los Angeles in those days , I studied from Ark Wong , I knew all of these guys. Jimmy Woo ( San Soo) came around Ark Wong's but he didn't study anything from Ark or Parker. Ed Parker did his own thing which was his kempo Karate,
San Soo is a mixture of odds and ends. James Wing Woo taught Kung Fu - he not related to Jimmy Woo.

erbilly;1288295]That is in correct. James Wing Woo taught Ed Parker at Parkers school along with Parkers students. That was not San Soo.

James H. Woo ( Jimmy Woo ) never taught Kenpo ever. Parker wanted to learn San Soo but refused to put on a white belt. Jimmy got sick of his **** and ran him out of his school.

There are 2 James Woo's. I believe they were also cousins. Not particulary close.

I believe most in San Soo believe San Soo is some form of Choy Lay Fut. I know nothing about some asking to recieve rank from others. It may be correct. Most I do not believe ever sought out anyone else for rank unless they wen there to study as beginners.

Grasshopper covered this. Oops.

Side note- Rudy Terlinden used to teach San Soo for Jimmy Woo at one of his schools. This clip says Silat. It is not. This is San Soo ! Very end is a little Silat. That is Rudys brother I believe. They both taught for Jimmy Woo. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xzqajezrw[/QUOTE]

Kool, I suspect James Wing Woo told you that. " No relation" ?

Thank you very much.

Bill

Ps. Sifu Ron, please check your pm box.