Green Dragon Studios [Archive] - Page 2

Lama Pai Sifu

07-01-2006, 06:11 AM

WARNING:

The videos offered by this company are not authentic.

They are in some cases, loosly based on actual forms, but the execution and instruction is so poor, that you will learn nothing. Actually, you will learn how to do KF incorrectly.

Allow me to repeat myself: You will learn incorrect movements and applications from these tapes.

I saw many of these tapes in the late 80-90's and frankly, I was shocked.

I'm sure the students on the tapes are under the impression that they are learning the correct stuff, and in some cases they are good athletes, but they are being bamboozeled as well.

This company is deplorable. Not because they make money, or made a lot of money in the past. They are deplorable because the owner, I believe, intentionally attempts to deceive the public into thinking that he, his video company, his 'attempt' at KF - is something that it is not.

I couldn't imagine where he learned this stuff from, but it is very wrong.

And I'm not talking just bad,..I've seen bad practitioners, I've seen bad KF on video, etc. This is not bad KF. It is Wrong and Incorrect Kung-Fu.

Don't buy anything else from them. But stuff from a million other people, BUT Them.

Royal Dragon

07-01-2006, 08:55 AM

I used to know a Tai Tzu guy who also does Bagua (well, more like a Bagua guy who also does some tai tzu). He is an old timmer, and once told me that he had done a Bagua performance in a competition, and the Green Dragon guys videoed the set, worked it out, filmed themselves performing it (all wrong), and sold it.

Apparently the had marked the competiton version of his form, and the marks were in the tape Green Dragon was selling at the time. That's how he caught them.

I don't have any confirmation out side of my guy's claim, but I have no reason to doubt him.

I also have thier Tai Tzu tapes. I was able to trace that set to a Freeman Ong originally out of Malaysia. I found an Ong Family in Malaysia, but never contacted them due to the language barrier, and no actual contact info.

So far as the material, it looks like some sort of Tai Tzu branch that had Five animals material mixed into it (Some sort of Mark maybe?) Although I could see it was a tai tzu set, it was done so horribly wrong, with such bad structure, mechanics and balance that is not worth even watching, let alone playig with. I'd have to toally re engineer the set, Move by move, to even get it close to matching any of the other tai tzu sets I have, or know. It was that bad.

Donkwoon

07-01-2006, 09:56 AM

I have not spent much time watching the internal sets that they offer but I must admit that that aspect of the demo leader didn't look to good. I have also read similar bad things about their kung fu on this forum but nothing specific. The one video that I have seems fairly basic/intermediate in terms of the application demonstrations; nothing out of the ordinary. Does anyone here have a specific example (even if it's just from memory) of why their applications are wrong?

As far as learning a kung fu form from their videos (or anyone's for that matter) is concerned I think that probably some qualification is needed. There is a huge difference between learning the basics from a video and learning a form from video after you have already studied for a long while.

IronFist

07-01-2006, 11:09 AM

Their "fundamentals of empty hand fighting" vid was decent, however. Definately better than some of the other KF vids I've seen. There are no forms or anything on this tape, but it's got good fundamental info, like crossing the centerline and stuff.

Of course, I'd still rather learn from Straight Blast Gym's (MMA) video's, but still.

Akronviper

07-10-2006, 09:24 AM

I also have thier Tai Tzu tapes. I was able to trace that set to a Freeman Ong originally out of Malaysia. I found an Ong Family in Malaysia, but never contacted them due to the language barrier, and no actual contact info.

For what its worth Allens teacher was Feeman Ong, Ong's son has a school in Barberton, Oh. I havent seen many of their tapes but the saying Student of many, Master on none comes to mind from the trailers i have seen.

And still they wont send me a catalouge

IronWeasel

07-18-2006, 12:30 PM

[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu]WARNING:

The videos offered by this company are not authentic.

Lama Pai,

I was just wondering what would make you think that Green Dragon's forms are not authentic.

Ironweasel

IronWeasel

07-18-2006, 12:37 PM

I also have thier Tai Tzu tapes. I was able to trace that set to a Freeman Ong originally out of Malaysia. I found an Ong Family in Malaysia, but never contacted them due to the language barrier, and no actual contact info.

Do you mean 'Feeman Ong'? He tought in Akron/Barberton Ohio. Maybe your guy and Sifu Allen received their material from the same source. If you're interested in info abut Ong or his family you might try Feeman Ong's senior student Al Wasil:

http://www.kwanyingdo.com/

Ironweasel

Mas Judt

07-18-2006, 12:54 PM

Sal Canzonieri

07-18-2006, 01:16 PM

Their forms are some of the worst I have seen in the last 25 years or more.

They barely resemble the forms that they are named after, save your money.

IronWeasel

07-18-2006, 09:09 PM

A better question would be "Why do you think they are?"

The following videos I have seen are so far removed from the system the form comes from, that they are virtually unrecognizable as:

Baji
White Eyebrow
Xing yi

None of the fundamentals of those systems are apparent in how they are performed.

I have seen a few forms performed on video and in person by Green Dragon. I saw the same forms on an internet video of some CMA tournament. Green Dragon's performance seemed faster, crisper movements, clear stancework with smooth transitions between stances. The tourny performances were slower, choppy, etc...but the steps were the same for both. Clearly recognizable as the same form, at least in these examples.

As far as fundamentals of the originating system, I'm not familiar enough with those systems to identify the missing elements that you mention.

This is the first time I've heard a bad review about their videos.

Ironweasel

Green Cloud

07-18-2006, 09:47 PM

Mas Judt

07-19-2006, 11:19 AM

"As far as fundamentals of the originating system, I'm not familiar enough with those systems to identify the missing elements that you mention"

Exactly. And you never will be if you chase the green dragon.

Caveat Emptor.

IronWeasel

07-19-2006, 04:20 PM

Yea I agree with Lama sifu I watched these green dragon videos with him, the vids are complete garbage. I don't take anything away from the buff Amazonian girls that performed some of these sets. Unfortunatly these sets are choreographed and not the real Macoy.

What forms were you reviewing? As far as I know, most of their material was taught by Feeman Ong, Ark Wong and Kao Tao-sheng...all respectable teachers.
(not trying to start a lineage thread)...

Could you choose a form and direct me to a source of instruction (hopefully a vid tape) that I could use to compare the differences?

Look at Butterfly Hand from GD and Butterfly Palm from Wing Lam Enterprises.
Same form.

I'm not doubting your observations, but I'd like to see the form executed the proper way, which ever it may be.

Thanks,

Ironweasel

Green Cloud

07-19-2006, 09:29 PM

hello Iron Weasel, As far as comparing forms on video plagerism is a part of Kung Fu. Anyone who has experience in CMA knows just from watching their applications that these guys didn't have a clue, just good marketing.

If they were for real where are the green dragon's people?? why isn't any one from GD speaking up.

greencloud.net

Akronviper

07-20-2006, 09:27 AM

I would love to talk to a Green Dragon Student!!! Please P.M me if you are one

Green Cloud

07-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Sorry dude I'm Green Cloud not Green Dragon.

Akronviper

07-20-2006, 01:07 PM

Yea I got that.

If they were for real where are the green dragon's people?? why isn't any one from GD speaking up.

If some one does speak up. P.M me

IronFist

07-20-2006, 07:21 PM

There were some Green Dragon students here a few years ago.

IronWeasel

07-21-2006, 05:43 PM

hello Iron Weasel, As far as comparing forms on video plagerism is a part of Kung Fu.
greencloud.net

Bump for more info on the bad forms.

Green Cloud

07-22-2006, 06:07 AM

I'm not sure but I think they still advertise in some Kung Fu mags. Anyway these guys are old news and I would advise not wasting your time.

IronWeasel

07-24-2006, 02:33 PM

I'm not sure but I think they still advertise in some Kung Fu mags. Anyway these guys are old news and I would advise not wasting your time.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to learn from anyone who teaches 'old' kung fu.

Mas Judt

07-24-2006, 04:56 PM

Reading comprehension is still an issue, eh?

IronWeasel

07-24-2006, 05:55 PM

Reading comprehension is still an issue, eh?

Seriously, guys...

How about some references.

Iron Weasel

David Jamieson

07-24-2006, 06:29 PM

yeah the S.B.G vids are good.

a little quickly paced, but good quality instruction from a variety of fighters who have good techs to show.

a friend of mine grabbed a set of stuff they had and we went through a bunch of it over several weeks last year. It's good stuff, I still use a lot of it.

mostly techs though. Not a lot of method training or attribute development stuff. But then I didn't look at everything on it and we focused only on a few things.

IronFist

07-24-2006, 11:13 PM

chud

07-25-2006, 10:36 AM

On that note, I used to train at a Straight Blast Gym, and I have some of their vids, and they're the best I've seen.

Which of their videos do you like best?

David Jamieson

07-25-2006, 10:57 AM

SBG? Straight Blast Gym? I thought this was a thread about Green Dragon.

On that note, I used to train at a Straight Blast Gym, and I have some of their vids, and they're the best I've seen.

yeah, but someone mentioned teh S.B.G vids, so I commented on my experience with them and I concur, that's good stuff on there.

My friend has the rodney king set. It deals with shoots, one leg takedowns, doubles, pops, bumps, pretty much all the different ranges stuff.

As for green dragon, I have a ching lung tape of some dragon bagua, but that ching lung isn't the same as the ohio green dragon.

Having said that, I don't think I've seen any of teh material from the Ohio guys, but I have heard about them since flicking through various mags over the years.

So, what's the inside scoop lama pai guy? Dish on the dirt! lol

IronFist

07-25-2006, 01:10 PM

Which of their videos do you like best?

The Rodney King Street Boxing series (I think that's what it's called, I don't have the DVDs with me here) is very, very good.

I think SBGs methodologies will make you a good fighter in the least amount of time.

Seriously.

I was only able to train at their school for like 3 months before I had to move, and those 3 months improved my abilities more than any other training I'd done at any school.

David Jamieson

07-25-2006, 01:43 PM

well, i think that what they have to offer is good decent instructional material that will improve your game if you practice it and pay attention to getting it correct. Like anything else.

But in general, I think a foundational base is key to success with execution of tactics.

What I saw was just techniques. I used the foundation I already had to employ them. So I don't know what they do at sbg to build your foundation, I can only speculate. But teh techs they are offer are totally legit and all totally workable and I agree, tehy are simple enough to understand and apply readily.

K.Brazier

07-28-2006, 06:53 PM

A low ranking Green Dragon student came to my school in Taiwan.
I was very interested in hearing that he had trained at the near legendary Green Dragon studio and asked him to perform a set.

He slowly explained that it was against the rules as it was a secret set and he was not permitted to show it to outsiders(and he wants me to teach him?).

With a kind and patient tongue I was able to convince him that no harm would come as I would not violate any rules of Martial Arts .

So he finally agrees to show me his set.
To this day, I wonder how someone could be brainwashed into thinking a random connection of undecipherable moves would need to be kept secret.

Well, maybe it is to preserve the sanctity of the grandmasters' style, but I suspect it is becuase the teacher knew that the material was a modern finger painting creation.

Kevin

http://plumflowermantisboxing.com/

Donkwoon

08-02-2006, 10:18 PM

I just got their new catalog in the mail and It has a website listed. It's not ready yet but when it is maybe we can get one of their reps to post here with a statement/response to this thread.

www.greendragonkungfu.com

Ben Gash

08-03-2006, 06:38 AM

I watched their northern leopard video once and it was horrible :(

Faruq

10-04-2006, 11:15 AM

Are you guys talking about these people:

http://www.greendragonsociety.com/new/info/catalog/catalog.html

http://johnkeehan.blogspot.com/2006/07/dragon-wars-contact-with-green-dragons.html

http://johnkeehan.blogspot.com/

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15769581/Main/15749938

Donkwoon

10-04-2006, 11:58 AM

No, they're a different group alltogether. There's a few Green Dragons out there.

Faruq

10-04-2006, 12:17 PM

Well since we've mentioned them, has anyone heard of a Northern Chinese Taoist Temple art called Ch'i Tao Ch'uan?

XinKuzi

10-26-2006, 12:39 AM

I have. Chi Tao Chuan is the art practiced by the Green Dragon Society from Chicago.

Faruq

10-26-2006, 08:36 AM

They're the ones that had that fatal clash (well not fatal for them) with the famed "Most Dangerous Man In The World", Count Dante. But aside from them, I've never heard of anyone ever having heard of Chi Tao Ch'uan.

And the "Rodney King Street Boxing System"? LOL. I'd rather learn the Chief Gates system, or the L.A.P.D. system! I want to be on the winning end of the next beatdown.

Lastly, is the Straight Blast Gym related to Paul Vunak? I know he had the Straight Blast Video set. There were some things in it that I'd apply to my TCMA.

Nick Forrer

10-26-2006, 10:24 AM

SBG are an MMA gym. However the head of the organisation mat thornton used to be a JKD guy hence the term 'Straight blast gym'. Yes Mat knows Vunak as they used to train together back in the day

The SBG curriculum is a mixture of BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai and Boxing. To my knowledge thy dont incorporate any elemnts of CMA (although they used to have a bit of wing chun they have since thown it out as non functional)

Mat Thornton is a BJJ black belt as well as having trained wrestling with Dan Henderson and Randy Couture (Olympic level Greco guys and UFC champions)
He aslo has a boxing background

The basic principle of the gym is aliveness i.e. all techniques being tried/tested/applied against a resisting opponent

Mat also breaks teaching down into concepts and fundamental ideas rather than just a load of moves

The Gym has produced a numebr of competitve fighters...of particular note are Nate Quarry and Forrest Griffin also Rory Singer (all of whom hav been in TUF)

IMO their videos are excellent and in particular Functional JKD 2 is the one to get. This will really give you a compete game in terms of stand up, clinch and ground.

Rodney King used to be the boxing instructor for the gym and IMO is very good. He also has a Muay Thai background. AFAIK he is no longer affiliatd with the gym though. His videos/seminars are great as well. He of course shares a name with a victim of police brutality.

David Jamieson

10-26-2006, 10:28 AM

mat talks to much and can bore a person to death.

rodney kings stuff comes from boxing and muay thai, but also deals with avoiding shoots.

it's pretty good material overall there is cross over to what is present in other ma both trad and non, but then, how shouldn't there be.

He even does some wrestling stuff out of clinch position such a bump and gos etc etc.

I prefer it to jkd stuff. Not a big fan of jkd but that's just me. Whatever floats other peoples boats and they can make work im cool with.

lkfmdc

10-26-2006, 10:39 AM

Nate is actually a Team Quest person, not SBGi... though his coach Robert Follis started out in SBGi I think?

Rory is actually forest's coach, Rory runs hard core gym with is an SBGi affiliate on the southeast

Nick Forrer

10-26-2006, 10:45 AM

Nate is from SBGi originally

He features in FJKD 2 along with Robert Follis

There is footage of him fighting with Mat as his corner man

There is also footage of him sparring with Mat and Mat is just toying with him (this is a while ago though...maybe about 2000...so 6 years ago)

Nick Forrer

10-26-2006, 10:46 AM

BTW, congrats on your belt promotion

What were you promoted to? Purple?

lkfmdc

10-26-2006, 10:51 AM

ah, my mistake, but I do know there is some cross pollination there between quest and sbg

as far as I am concerned i'm really just a white belt and will forever remain so, shouldn't have mentioned it, was only trying to say I am still working out and learning...

Iron Buda

12-07-2006, 12:27 PM

This is one of the reason's why Master Ong expelled Mr. Allen from the system sometime in the early Seventies. To much of his own addlib.
Also Mr. Allen doesn’t teach Meditation, and Master Ong always said the training is only 25% physical, and the other 75% is the training of the mind by Meditation? Hence his students were missing out on a lot of potential.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 03:12 PM

This is one of the reason's why Master Ong expelled Mr. Allen from the system sometime in the early Seventies

Bulls**t. Allen & Chicoine left Ong's program of their own accord.

To much of his own addlib

Bulls**t on top of the bulls**t.

I also have thier Tai Tzu tapes. I was able to trace that set to a Freeman Ong originally out of Malaysia

Wow, do any of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about with regard to Green Dragon, their material, Allen & Chicoine & their true relationships to Ong & Chang, or is it all just smoke, hot air, and b.s.? Or as in your case, plain lying.

Or can you provide details on how you were able to "trace" that--or any other--set to a Femon--not "Freeman"--Ong originally out of Anywhere?

Didn't think so.

most of their material was taught by Feeman Ong ET AL

Incorrect. One of the multitude of reasons Allen left Ong's school. Closer to the mark on the 'ET Al' portion of your post, however (Wong, Kao T-S).

There were some Green Dragon students here a few years ago

Gee, I wonder why they left? ;)

A low ranking Green Dragon student came to my school in Taiwan.
I was very interested in hearing that he had trained at the near legendary Green Dragon studio and asked him to perform a set.

He slowly explained that it was against the rules as it was a secret set and he was not permitted to show it to outsiders ETC

Ridiculous. Had to laugh when you gave yourself away so early on with the 'low ranking' qualifier.

I'm curious. Just how s-l-o-o-o-o-w-l-y did he explain his reluctance to perform, and why did you question his claim of having studied at GD rather than taking him so much more seriously than you did your own ignorance at what may actually transpire there in the way of teaching?

I just got their new catalog in the mail and It has a website listed. It's not ready yet

Now this is interesting. You do know, though, don't you, that the domain you provided was originally registered way back in 1997, right? Whereas it's 2006 now. When did you receive this "new" catalogue?

maybe we can get one of their reps to post here with a statement/response to this thread

I highly doubt it. I used to train there, though (the Home School after a probation period through the Kent Club). And I know several other people who did and/or still do. But what makes you think one of their "reps" would reply in that way on that topic?

I watched their northern leopard video once and it was horrible

See, there's the key to at least 99.9% of the b.s. most of you guys are spewing about the school, its head instructor, the material they provide, and so forth--

"watched"

It's always "watched," or "read about" or "heard."

Never: dedicatedly worked & strained & sweated my little tail off each and every day in learning and perfecting some samples of their fighting sets and strength & power-building material.

Most laughable: IronFist's assertion that he's posted "in depth" posts about the Stone Warrior set elsewhere on this, or any other, board or forum.

IronFist doesn't know jacksh**t about training on the Stone Warrior strength & power set. IronFist---according to his very own words on the subject---never even got to Square 1 on any sort of meaningful experience, let alone 'in depth' know-how or knowledge---with or about the authentic Stone Warrior set or the innumerable benefits it has to offer.

He almost exclusively "watched" or "read" or "heard" about it. Then based part of his criticism of it on some almost entirely irrelevant aspect of Americanized dynamic tension-type exercise.

And yet, his attitude is representative of the typical martial arts student---and many, many instructors---out there.

Wow.

Like Sifu Allen says, Green Dragon keeps about 1 out of every 100 who start in on what they offer in the way they offer it. You don't have to read many posts on very many MA discussion boards to figure out some part of why this holds true now, just as it did in the days of old.

Ben Gash

12-07-2006, 03:51 PM

See, there's the key to at least 99.9% of the b.s. most of you guys are spewing about the school, its head instructor, the material they provide, and so forth--

"watched"

It's always "watched," or "read about" or "heard."

Never: dedicatedly worked & strained & sweated my little tail off each and every day in learning and perfecting some samples of their fighting sets and strength & power-building material.

Why on earth would I want to? It was horrible. It was a badly structured set performed very poorly with bad production. This is hardly likely to inspire me to study the material. Also, it leads you to believe that the person putting the tape out either A) doesn't know much about kung fu B)Is actively ripping people off because they know that the tape is bad or C)Doesn't really take much active involvement in the production and distribution of the tapes.
Exactly how am I supposed to make a judgement about a school I don't attend other than watching their Kung Fu????? :confused:

Donkwoon

12-07-2006, 04:12 PM

To answer the portion where I was just quoted; I did get their new catalog and that's how I ordered the 2 monk staff set. It's almost the same as the old catalog except for a few small things. It did include a website and also a paypall e-mail.

orders@greendragonkungfu.com

As far as one of their reps posting here, I still think that it wouldn't hurt. They are getting bashed pretty bad and since this is a fairly large site I think that a rebuttel might be in order. (I realize that you have already begun this)

Are the teachings that they offer compleatly authentic? I really don't know but I can say that I found the quality of the product to be very good and the teaching method usefull.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 04:18 PM

It was a badly structured set performed very poorly

Ah---an expert. (Should be a wink smiley here, but it didn't show up)

Couple quick points, as this has been covered (ie ignored?) here before: the Chinese don't fight the way tournament fighters---at least all the ones I've ever seen---do.

Also, properly trained Chinese martial artists begin building up the chi in their bodies for use in fighting right from Day 1. Not done in 99% of the schools out there. And is one chief difference in how a school like Green Dragon does things the way they do, as well as why.

I'm really not sure what you mean by characterizing the set as being "badly structured." In terms of the content and how it's sequenced?

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 04:33 PM

I did get their new catalog and that's how I ordered the 2 monk staff set. It's almost the same as the old catalog except for a few small things. It did include a website and also a paypall e-mail

Thanks for that. Very interesting.

As far as one of their reps posting here, I still think that it wouldn't hurt. They are getting bashed pretty bad and since this is a fairly large site I think that a rebuttel might be in order

I honestly don't believe they care in the least about getting "bashed." But that's just an educated guess. I'm certainly not trying to speak for them, merely in support of them based on my own experiences & some input from others who've had direct experiences of a similar nature.

(I realize that you have already begun this)

Not a rebuttal. Perhaps supportive clarification?

Are the teachings that they offer compleatly authentic?

Absolutely 100% genuine stuff. IF you do it the way it's supposed to be done. And, as some other poster indicated in another thread somewhere here (I did some bouncing around using the Search feature last night and this morning), that's not always easy off videotape.

On the other hand, they do take this into account pretty well. They expect that you know a little something going in. Or plan to train on more than one tape if you don't (the Fundamentals series, eg).

I really don't know but I can say that I found the quality of the product to be very good and the teaching method usefull

They are pretty much completely oriented toward CONTENT in teaching and making the tapes that are available; not entertainment value. It's a painstaking thing learning some of this stuff, absolutely. It is not for armchair or "recreational" martial artists.

Yao Sing

12-07-2006, 04:36 PM

This argument that you have to train extensively in a style/method before you can make a judgement is bogus. People make judgements all the time based on the info available to them, admittedly sometimes very limited.

How long is someone supposed to train a style or at a school to get a good sense? Seems to me it will always fall short so their argument can be maintained.

I've heard this in SD and others. Looking at all the posted vids or live performances does not do it justice but that's what is presented to the public as examples so what do you expect people to think.

If you view vids then that's not good enough. If you sit in and watch a class still not good enough.

Take a introductory class, still no good. Train for 3 or 4 months, too short.

Realistically, the more training you have the less you need to see to make a judgement and pretty much everyone her has a fair amount. Some quite extensive.

You want peeps to make a fair judgement put your best foot forward in public.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 04:41 PM

Yao Sing type-type-types

...And nothing worth responding to appears.

However: You visit several schools with relevant questions prepared. Talk to as many students at each as you can; especially more senior, longterm students. Ask to see as broad a cross-section as possible of the material taught there demonstrated live, then & there.

Know what you're looking for when you start making the rounds. Wushu type stuff? Tournament trophies? Exercise? Variety in training? What? Educate yourself.

For example, not all schools mean the same thing at all when they talk about "chi" (or qi). Some schools aren't teaching Chinese styles at all, really, but a kind of karate-ballet-gymnastics hybrid. Not all schools differentiate between a style or system that is 'internal' in nature as opposed to 'external' (that is, they define 'internal' & external quite differently) at all. Not all schools believe in the necessity of strength in self-defense, or if they do, hold to different ideas about the best ways to attain useful strength and/or power.

Were your questions answered candidly? Were the senior students available to talk & answer your questions to your satisfaction? How about the instructor?

Caveat: it's true, many instructors will bulls**t your ears off and tell you whatever they think you want to hear. So be prepared to challenge their claims. They should welcome this during your little "orientation" visit, if they're legit.

Ask what type of results might be expected from what is taught there and how long it takes to get it.

If you aren't getting these results despite honest effort after what you deem to be a reasonable period based on what you were told, take your business elsewhere.

Or would you rather hear my own views on what I'd want in a martial arts school in terms of what I'd expect to get out of my training?

Royal Dragon

12-07-2006, 04:54 PM

Wow, do any of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about with regard to Green Dragon, their material, Allen & Chicoine & their true relationships to Ong & Chang, or is it all just smoke, hot air, and b.s.? Or as in your case, plain lying.

Or can you provide details on how you were able to "trace" that--or any other--set to a Femon--not "Freeman"--Ong originally out of Anywhere?

Didn't think so.

Reply]
I used to have contact with a Malaysian Tai Tzu player who knew other Malaysian Tai Tzu Sifu's with the surname Ong (maybe it was femon though, this was years ago). He told me there is a family there that does Tai Tzu, as well as some other things.

I AM I Tai Tzu practioner myself. I have seen the GD Tai Tzu tape. The performance of the set was beyond horrible. The body structure was not there, the mechanics were not there, even the flow and flavor of the style was NOT THERE! It was one of the most butchered form perfromances I have ever seen. It really looked like it was copied from a book by someone who knows nothing of any martial art, let alone one of China's most fundemental Long Fis styles.

Yao Sing

12-07-2006, 04:57 PM

So you have no opinion on how far someone should in researching a prospective school or video tape series?

If you put out a training tape and it's crap and not a t all like your reeal training then why are you putting it out? Does teh word ripoff come in to play?

You are not attempting to scam anyone but you put out substandard material that you admit doesn not represent the level of skill you teach your students?

Royal Dragon

12-07-2006, 05:08 PM

You are not attempting to scam anyone but you put out substandard material that you admit doesn not represent the level of skill you teach your students?

Reply]
I also used to know a Bagua Sifu who claimes the Green Dragon guys filmed his Bagau performance at atournament, learned the sequence from the tape they shot, and then filmed themselves doing the set to sell it through thier web site.

The funny part, is the tounament performance was MARKED incase someone was filming, and the GD guys copied all the intentional marks and errors verbatem when they sold their tapes. That is how the original performer discovered the scam.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 05:10 PM

Royal Dragon & Yao Sing, please see above posts. I'm having trouble getting my posts to post, I keep getting logged out when I hit Submit...

Yao Sing, for one thing, I wasn't clear on who exactly you were addressing your points to (Green Dragon? SBG?).

Royal Dragon, see response to Ben Gash re: structure etc.

Yao Sing

12-07-2006, 05:29 PM

I've heard nothing but good things about SBG and I've heard predominently bad things about Green Dragon. Based on that (bash me if you want) I would not waste my hard earned money on GD tapes, especially with the SBG tapes available and with good reviews.

This is why the suggestion was made to have a rep address some of the complaints and issues from the reviewers on this forum. Imagine how many lurkers are thinking the same as me but not speaking up to be counted.

Royal Dragon

12-07-2006, 05:34 PM

Ah---an expert. (Should be a wink smiley here, but it didn't show up)

Couple quick points, as this has been covered (ie ignored?) here before: the Chinese don't fight the way tournament fighters---at least all the ones I've ever seen---do.

Also, properly trained Chinese martial artists begin building up the chi in their bodies for use in fighting right from Day 1. Not done in 99% of the schools out there. And is one chief difference in how a school like Green Dragon does things the way they do, as well as why.

Reply]
Qi cannot be built up without the Qi Gong's being done correctly.l f one does not have the basic skelital/structural alignment right, one can never get the rest of it right. GD does not have the proper body structure for Qi gong, or any Chinese martial art.

I'm really not sure what you mean by characterizing the set as being "badly structured." In terms of the content and how it's sequenced?

Reply]
No, we mean skelital alignment. Fundemental Chinese martial arts tuck the tail bone, round the shoulder, and sink the chest. Look at the tapes GD puts out.

They all arch the back, pull the shoulders back, puff the chest out, and stick thier butts out. That is totally BACKWARDS of right. Every basic, fundemental body requirement is totally wrong, and in truth the exact opposite of what it should be.

Without the right structure, you cannot have the proper body mechanics. That is why GD people are so unbalanced and akward when they move. It looks to me like they preceived a defincency, but not being properly trained they did not know what that deficiency was, so they did the best they could by trying to compensate with considerably more conditioning. It really didn't help, all that did was make them even worse than before, only now they had just gotten really good, at being really bad.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 05:50 PM

I also used to know a Bagua Sifu who claimes the Green Dragon guys filmed his Bagau performance at atournament, learned the sequence from the tape they shot, and then filmed themselves doing the set to sell it through thier web site.

The funny part, is the tounament performance was MARKED incase someone was filming, and the GD guys copied all the intentional marks and errors verbatem when they sold their tapes. That is how the original performer discovered the scam

Funny! But untrue. In fact, if you really think about the story, it doesn't even make sense. Seriously.

I've got almost all their tapes, some in different versions, including the Pa Kua stuff.

I've heard nothing but good things about SBG and I've heard predominently bad things about Green Dragon. Based on that (bash me if you want) I would not waste my hard earned money on GD tapes, especially with the SBG tapes available and with good reviews.

This is why the suggestion was made to have a rep address some of the complaints and issues from the reviewers on this forum. Imagine how many lurkers are thinking the same as me but not speaking up to be counted.

No intention of "bashing" you. It depends what you want out of your training. GD tapes simply may not work for you; that doesn't mean they don't work.

Not everyone's interested in a truly demanding training regimen or difficult---but result-producing---material. Not everyone's interested in authentic Chinese training; some prefer sport style work or exercise fighting or trophies.

I'll say it one more time: they keep 1 out of every 100 who try. They aren't interested in popularity or sport trophies; they're interested in results from a serious CMA standpoint.

Which brings me to another indicator that a Chinese MA school is legit: they will strongly emphasize stance training, particularly in the earlier phases of a student's training. And stance work is hard; it can be monotonous; it can be grueling.

This turns off a whole lot of students. But it is indispensable if you want to have success in that type of program. Without it, you'll never be able to maneuver properly---in terms of how a real Chinese fighter moves & fights! (not the same as sport-style fighting or MMA type stuff at all.) Or deliver your techniques with great power; again, as the old Chinese defined power!

As for why the suggestion was made to have a rep address ETC (was it you who made it?)---What good would that really do?

A few years ago they went out of their way and bent over backwards to accommodate & clarify some of these concerns. And no one listened---especially after they found out how hard the training was.

Which always struck me as odd. If you want extraordinary results or skills, wouldn't it require unusually demanding work or training to produce them? But anyway...

1 out of every 100. That's how it was in the old days, that's how it is at Green Dragon now (and I could pass along some of my own experiences in experimenting with the hard, stance & repetition-based, approach they use), and I doubt very much that they'd ever care about changing that. In fact, when such objections come up, they usually RAISE the standards again, not lower them to cater to the masses.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 05:58 PM

That is why GD people are so unbalanced and akward when they move

I've seen a lot of fighters from a lot of sports & styles move, including several World Champion boxers and numerous Green Dragon students and performers live, up close, and personal.

No one moves more quickly through complex techniques, with more power & precision, than the more advanced people at Green Dragon. No one.

The key there may be: complex with power. Lots of other people look, to the untrained eye, "smoother" or more "artistic." That doesn't mean, by a long shot, that they really are. It might just mean they're doing simpler things with less power & effectiveness.

You know about the half-second paradigm, right, and all that it requires? If you do, I sure can't tell it from your comments or observations. In fact, sounds like you have no actual experience with it or what it's about at all.

Which is the general rule. It doesn't come easy, even if you've been exposed to it or know what it's for.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 06:47 PM

Qi cannot be built up without the Qi Gong's being done correctly.l f one does not have the basic skelital/structural alignment right, one can never get the rest of it right. GD does not have the proper body structure for Qi gong, or any Chinese martial art

Baloney.

I doubt there's hardly anyone out there who has the slightest idea what proper techniques & training are for activating, increasing, circulating the chi and delivering it for use in self-defense. (One probable exception from the various threads I've had time to sample: Mr. Dale Dugas.)

You aren't doing the programs (daily). Or the forms (daily). Or putting in the necessary numbers of reps (each and every day).

And you left out perhaps the key thing: proper breathing.

All you know is some vague theoretical idea some people have about a few chi-oriented mechanics or simple, introductory exercises.

Because here's the dead giveaway: watching you fight.

Heck, you can't even talk about it knowledgably. And you never, ever bring this crucial point up. You don't even really understand what I mean by it, or the first thing about how real Chinese-style fighters are taught to move, or what the actual significance of it is when designing or undertaking a true Chinese martial arts training regimen.

Or how that half-second paradigm relates to all I've just said.

Anyway, I'm just about outta time for this evening, it's been fun and very interesting; thanks for the discussion & input, everyone.

And good luck in your training. Now go get those reps in!

;)

Iron Tiger

Royal Dragon

12-07-2006, 07:22 PM

No one moves more quickly through complex techniques, with more power & precision, than the more advanced people at Green Dragon. No one.

Reply]
You don't get out much, do you? You basically just insulted all the senior players on this board.....and it's bull s#!t on top of that. GD seniors move like bags of cement.

Baloney.

I doubt there's hardly anyone out there who has the slightest idea what proper techniques & training are for activating, increasing, circulating the chi and delivering it for use in self-defense.

Reply]
LOL!!! You just insulted everyojne here AGIAN! (There are some really experiance players here you know).

GD has no clue at all either. Really, none of that stuff works properly without the body structure, AND mechanics. It's clear from watching the senior payers demonstraighting on the GD Tai Tzu tape that they don't have it. It was the worst, most unbalanced example of Long Fist I have ever seen.

Specifically the probloems are form them NOT tucking the tail bone, NOT rounding the shoulders, NOT sinking the chest, and NOT arching the back. Infact the problems are compounded by the fact that they not only don't follow the proper requirements, they infact go over board in the OPPOSITE direction. They actually accentuate the arcing of the back, pulling back the shoulders, puffing the chest out, and sticking thier posteriors out.

Anyone with some fundemental training can easily see where the problems lay.

Instead of attacking us and claiming only "Green Dragon" knows anything (Thus implying we are all "know nothing chumps") open your eyes, and try and learn something!

And you left out perhaps the key thing: proper breathing.

Reply]
That is becasue it's part of the mechanics. They go together, and are inseprable.

>>All you know is some vague theoretical idea some people have about a few chi-oriented mechanics or simple, introductory exercises.

Reply]
You are full of it, I know more than you do. Your worship of that crap GD puts out is proof.

Heck, you can't even talk about it knowledgably. And you never, ever bring this crucial point up. You don't even really understand what I mean by it, or the first thing about how real Chinese-style fighters are taught to move, or what the actual significance of it is when designing or undertaking a true Chinese martial arts training regimen.

Reply]
The fact that you don't understand the comment that not only one, but TWO people have made about structure shows you are projecting more than anything. You say I don't talk about it knowledgably, but I sited SPECIFIC corrections, and body alignment requirements specific to the Chinese martial arts, and all you do is make vauge claimes with nothing substantial at all, followed by basically calling all of us stupid and ignorant.

Funny! But untrue. In fact, if you really think about the story, it doesn't even make sense. Seriously.

I've got almost all their tapes, some in different versions, including the Pa Kua stuff.

Reply]
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Chinese martial artists often change things up, or mark them for public performances. Infact it's very common. You can go to the Chan Ti San thread and see that he had (And I quote Ross) A,b,c and even "D" versions of all his forms. If GD did steal someone's performance, it likely they didn't know this anymore than they know what correct Chinese body structure is, so of course they woud copy all the Marks and get busted.

I'll say it one more time: they keep 1 out of every 100 who try. .

Reply]
Because they suck.

They aren't interested in popularity or sport trophies; they're interested in results from a serious CMA standpoint

Reply]
If they were really interested in doing anything right, they would have sought out proper teachings, and got the fundementals at least. They are not getting results, they are getting really good, at being really bad.

Which brings me to another indicator that a Chinese MA school is legit: they will strongly emphasize stance training, particularly in the earlier phases of a student's training. And stance work is hard; it can be monotonous; it can be grueling.

Plenty of good Chinese schools do a lot of stance work. In my youth, I used to hold each posture of a THIRTY SIX POSTURE form for 3-10 minutes each, in DEEP stances (look at my avatar for an example)

What good does it do if your guys held these stances with thier a$$es out, backs arched, shoulders back and chest protruding, instead of doing it right?

Knifefighter

12-07-2006, 07:33 PM

(look at my avatar for an example)
That is an ideal example of a completly functionless, waste of time stance.

What good does it do if your guys held these stances with thier a$$es out, backs arched, shoulders back and chest protruding, instead of doing it right?
If one were to spend time doing stance work rather than having a partner and drilling with him to work on positions, "a$$es out, backs arched, shoulders back and chest protruding" would probably be the most effective way to do it. This is the most stable and functional position and is pretty much the way wrestlers stand when they are defending or setting up takedowns.

iron tiger

12-07-2006, 07:33 PM

You don't get out much, do you?

More than you might think. Been in in quite a few schools. Names even you might know.

And you still can't talk knowledgably about Chinese fighting. And in all probability, never will.

So I've heard your line of bull before. But at least some of those other people have the gumption to admit that they don't know.

;)

Hope tomorrow is another blissful day for ya, RD!

Flying-Monkey

12-07-2006, 07:41 PM

That is an ideal example of a completly functionless, waste of time stance.

If one were to spend time doing stance work rather than having a partner and drilling with him to work on positions, "a$$es out, backs arched, shoulders back and chest protruding" would probably be the most effective way to do it. This is the most stable and functional position and is pretty much the way wrestlers stand when they are defending or setting up takedowns.

I have to agree with Knife. For the usage I was taught, that stance is too low and basically useless.

godzillakungfu

12-07-2006, 07:49 PM

Ah---an expert. (Should be a wink smiley here, but it didn't show up)

Couple quick points, as this has been covered (ie ignored?) here before: the Chinese don't fight the way tournament fighters---at least all the ones I've ever seen---do.

Everyone skipped over this so maybe I'm missing something.

What does this have to do with an American teacher doing forms poorly on film?

IronWeasel

12-07-2006, 10:26 PM

Reply]
No, we mean skelital alignment. Fundemental Chinese martial arts tuck the tail bone, round the shoulder, and sink the chest. Look at the tapes GD puts out.

Royal Dragon: SOME styles feature the postures that you have described (such as White Tiger, Wing Chun and some internal styles). There are other styles that emphasize the postures depicted by Green Dragon, and they can be seen in other instructional video tape sources as well.

Knife Fighter: RD's stance in his avatar is an example of a 'training' posture. It builds strong legs fast, and holding it that low demonstrates such strength. Fighting from a thighs-parallel stance would be awkward and use lots of energy...

Iron Tiger: Even handed posts for the most part, but It looks like you let some frustration seep through on a few of your rebuttals. I see that you are newly registered; did you sign up just to defend GD authenticity?

Everyone else: Green Dragon material originates from several very credible sources. Bashing their authenticity also bashes the likes of Gao-Tao Shang, Ark Wong, Tung Shen Chang and others. Lineage isn't everything, but these teachers are very well respected.

Thanks for listening,

IronWeasel

IronFist

12-07-2006, 11:16 PM

IronFist doesn't know jacksh**t about training on the Stone Warrior strength & power set. IronFist---according to his very own words on the subject---never even got to Square 1 on any sort of meaningful experience, let alone 'in depth' know-how or knowledge---with or about the authentic Stone Warrior set or the innumerable benefits it has to offer.

He almost exclusively "watched" or "read" or "heard" about it. Then based part of his criticism of it on some almost entirely irrelevant aspect of Americanized dynamic tension-type exercise.

Cool, I just noticed I was referred to just a few days ago. I know I've made long posts about Stone Warrior before, but I didn't see any of mine in this thread.

Please tell me what I'm missing about Stone Warrior. If you want to debate, I'm game. I can explain for you and back up with science why Stone Warrior will not do what Green Dragon claims. Dynamic tension has its positives but as far as developing raw strength it will not get you very far.

So if you want to discuss this, let's go. If you're going to be a douche about it then forget it.

And wtf is "Americanized" dynamic tension? It's either dynamic tension or it's not. It's like saying American bench pressing is different from Russian bench pressing.

Royal Dragon

12-08-2006, 01:23 AM

Well, it looks like we are going to have to agree that we dissagree.

Ben Gash

12-08-2006, 08:30 AM

No one moves more quickly through complex techniques, with more power & precision, than the more advanced people at Green Dragon. No one.

Then who are the clowns on the tapes?
Suddenly it all becomes clear. We can't know because only you know the real stuff :rolleyes: I love the fact that you presume to lecture Royal Dragon and myself, both experienced practitioners of traditional martial arts, about what TCMA involves :rolleyes:
Expert? **** straight.

B-Rad

12-08-2006, 08:34 AM

RD, you are wrong though in thinking that those principles are universal throughout Chinese martial arts.

Royal Dragon

12-08-2006, 10:42 AM

I have yet to see a Kung Fu style that actually requires arched backs, pulled back shoulders, expanded chest, and sticking the butt out, which is what the practitioners on the GD tapes do.

Round shoulder, sunk chest, stright back and tucked tailbone is a requirement in Tai Tzu. Yes, you see many who do not meet all the requirements, and many teachers do not show that untill you are indoor, but when you look at the masters of the branch they all hold the requirements.

I think many teachers prefer to get the rough system in a student, and then refine from there.

The GD tapes are presenting seniors though, who are intentionally doing the structure backwards, and wrong from what Tai Tzu is supposed to be, which is why they move like crap. You can see this is how they naturally stand when they are in between demo's, so it's something they trained and worked very hard at mastering. This tells me they had very poor teachings.

Royal Dragon

12-08-2006, 11:00 AM

I love the fact that you presume to lecture Royal Dragon and myself, both experienced practitioners of traditional martial arts, about what TCMA involves

Reply]
Yeah, I thought that was laughable too, especially when I am discussing the "meat and potato details" of my position (proving I have more than just basic knowledge on the subject), and he is only making vauge acertations....then claims we don't understand Chinese martial arts.

My first reaction when I saw that was thinking "What a Knob...:rolleyes: "

Knifefighter

12-08-2006, 11:13 AM

I can explain for you and back up with science why Stone Warrior will not do what Green Dragon claims. Dynamic tension has its positives but as far as developing raw strength it will not get you very far.
What are you referring to as dymamic tension? Isometric contractions?

MonkeyKingUSA

12-08-2006, 02:49 PM

I have yet to see a Kung Fu style that actually requires arched backs, pulled back shoulders, expanded chest, and sticking the butt out, which is what the practitioners on the GD tapes do.

Well, if you saw the GD tapes, you have now. :)
Mr. Allen was a direct student of Feeman Ong. All the students that I have seen in Master Ong's lineage use the same posture. So, apparently Master Ong felt the posture was TCMA enough.

Royal Dragon

12-08-2006, 03:14 PM

shuaichiao

12-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Reply]

Everyone else: Lineage isn't everything,

Proven by the quality of the preformances on their videos.

Donkwoon

12-08-2006, 06:43 PM

There is a middle ground here; yes I also have noticed that many of the postures and foot work transitions were wrong, at least according to the way in which I was taught. I still benefited from the first tape and even decided to buy another because I can always adjust that stuff on my own because I'm pretrained so to speak. It's really the experience of learning a new form that I was after. Anyone who is into forms can relate to the experience of being "addicted" to a new set. Even if the new routine doesn't teach any previously unknown techniques, it still brings new interest, life and freshness to one's workout regime. If you live out in the middle of nowhere like I do, you'll realize why the GD catalog can come in handy. (It wouldn't be my first choice for beginners though).

I know this is off topic but some of you guys were writing about SBG. I checked out their website and was impressed. Are those DVDs suitable for training alone or do you absolutely have to have a partner? If this is to much off topic then someone please PM me.

MonkeyKingUSA

12-08-2006, 08:18 PM

If That is what he was doing to Tai Tzu, then his Tai Tzu sucks.

This is the core body structure Tai Tzu is supposed to have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZkQ5qp5nHw

Notice the rounded shoulders, tail bone is tucked. Look close, and you see he does NOT protruded his chest?

Tai Tzu uses the same body as Chen Taiji. Infact, that is where Chen Taiji got it from.

I can't speak for their Tai Tzu performance. I do not know anything about Tai Tzu. I was commenting on whether their posture is up to any Chinese standards.
Since you practice Tai Tzu, I will take your word for it that their stances do not meet Tai Tzu standards.
However, I wasn't impressed with your first YouTube example. Perhaps that is good Tai Tzu movement and upper body, but how he does his stances wouldn't pass the standards of most of the Sifu that I know. Check out the directions his feet are pointing in both his Bow and Arrow Stance and his Horse Stance.

Royal Dragon

12-08-2006, 08:22 PM

However, I wasn't impressed with your first YouTube example. Perhaps that is good Tai Tzu movement and upper body, but how he does his stances wouldn't pass the standards of most of the Sifu that I know. Check out the directions his feet are pointing in both his Bow and Arrow Stance and his Horse Stance.

Reply]
You are correct.

These two sets are wushuised in the fact that they make all the circles exceptionally large in addition to the footwork issues. The core boy is correct though. This performance still blows away the GD examples.

planetwc

12-09-2006, 02:12 AM

Out of curiosity where is the proof that Chen village got their posture and structure from Tai Tzu?

If That is what he was doing to Tai Tzu, then his Tai Tzu sucks.

This is the core body structure Tai Tzu is supposed to have.

Tai Tzu uses the same body as Chen Taiji. Infact, that is where Chen Taiji got it from.

Royal Dragon

12-09-2006, 10:11 AM

Go get the latest issue of Kung Fu Qi Gong magazine. Sal Canzonieri compares his Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set (Indoor version of the ones I linked too), to the really Old Chen set. You can see the entire Tai Tzu form is in there move for move, in order. It just has extra techniques mixed inbetween the Tai Tzu moves. Sal learned his Tai Tzu first, and later learned Chen, so he has a unique perspective.

You can also see the internal aspects of Tai Tzu present in Chen Taiji as well.

I have a friend who does Zhao Bao taiji, and you can clearly see it is a Tai Tzu derived form too. There is too much Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan in it to not be.

I actually suspect (but can't prove) that Zhao Bao, and Chen Taiji evolved independantly of eachother, from Tai Tzu, and later cross pollinated.

The fact that Tai Tzu was one of the foundational arts of Chen Taiji is pretty well known in Chen circles.

B-Rad

12-09-2006, 06:48 PM

Fundemental Chinese martial arts tuck the tail bone, round the shoulder, and sink the chest.

Maybe we're thinking of different things... when I think of tucking the tailbone I think of having the hips thrust forward ala Yip Man Wing Chun http://www.ewtosanmarino.com/WT_file/foto/YipMan/YipMan_Bruce_Brandon.jpg

Similar deal with shoulders (ending up with a hunch back). Quite a few styles and teachers teach students to have an open chest in their form work, pulling the shoulders back some or having a more natural posture with the hips in stance work. Some don't seem to give a s#it one way or another as long as you're not going to extremes... I haven't seen these GD tapes, so I can't say how extreme we're talking in that particular case.

B-Rad

12-09-2006, 06:54 PM

I have a friend who does Zhao Bao taiji, and you can clearly see it is a Tai Tzu derived form too. There is too much Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan in it to not be.

I actually suspect (but can't prove) that Zhao Bao, and Chen Taiji evolved independantly of eachother, from Tai Tzu, and later cross pollinated.

What makes you think that? Also, how do you determine they got these traits from Tai Tzu rather than a Tai Tzu guy coming across taiji at some point in the more recent past? How do you determine timelines?

Royal Dragon

12-09-2006, 07:12 PM

Well, first off the Wing Chun pics seem to greatly over emphisise the tuck. They also are leaning back creating some sort of "inverse" S curve in the spine. Tai Tzu keeps the spine straight.

As for the mechanics, I have seen them in several Tai Tzu lines, that are pretty independant of one another over the years. And the entire Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu form is in the Chen's old form.

See Sal Canzonieri's artical in the most reacent Kung Fu magazine issue.

Also, it seems to be agreed that the Shaolin 32 move Tai Tzu is the oldest. Assuming this is true, it has all the core mechanics in it to evolve into Taiji if one (like a battle wonded retired soldier) were to just play the art only on it's softer side.

Much of the core internal mechanics are also in the Taiji ruler, which was a foundational Taoist Qi Gong in the development of Tai Tzu.

Some might argue that it is actually the Taiji Ruler that found it's way to Chen long fist and then it became Taiji by the blending of the two as well. I don't buy that though.

There are a lot of things to think about, but from what I have seen, the Shaolin 32 being considred the original form and all (960 AD), and the fact that Chen Taiji credits Tai Tzu Chang Chuan as being one of it's major founding influances, AND the original 32 is in the Chen's old form, move for move, it stands to reason.

IronFist

12-11-2006, 01:05 PM

What are you referring to as dymamic tension? Isometric contractions?

I'm referring to the Stone Warrior set that Green Dragon does: basically going through movements with maximal tension. Think like the beginning of Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen (Hung Gar's main form) with the bridge hand thing.

I don't care how much of that stuff you do. It's not going to build insane strength or size like Green Dragon claims. This is irrespective of diet, training, anything. It's not going to do it. I used to be a big Stone Warrior nutrider, too.

IronFist

12-11-2006, 01:22 PM

IronFist

12-11-2006, 02:53 PM

IronWeasel

12-11-2006, 03:52 PM

I'm referring to the Stone Warrior set that Green Dragon does: basically going through movements with maximal tension. Think like the beginning of Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen (Hung Gar's main form) with the bridge hand thing.

I don't care how much of that stuff you do. It's not going to build insane strength or size like Green Dragon claims. This is irrespective of diet, training, anything. It's not going to do it. I used to be a big Stone Warrior nutrider, too.

Remember: It's SUPPOSED to be 'herbally assisted'.

Extra gains to be had that way.

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 04:40 PM

at least according to the way in which I was taught

Smart man.

(It wouldn't be my first choice for beginners though)

On the whole, I'd agree with you on that.

GD has no clue at all either

Completely incorrect. Not many instructors have been around as many MA schools, Chinese & otherwise, worldwide, as has Allen. Who was himself taught by several very highly accomplished Chinese masters...

It looks like you let some frustration seep through on a few of your rebuttals

"Frustration," or incredulous amusement? Most of it's just pretty tongue-in-cheek; I don't expect the larger majority of the "TCM" population to 'get it.' Just wondered if maybe 1 or 2 might. Isn't sounding like it. And if you feel "insulted"---maybe you should take a closer look in the mirror, or at your instructor, before you start pointing fingers. :D

Suddenly it all becomes clear. We can't know because only you know the real stuff

You "can't know" because you haven't done the work.

The knowledge is there for the taking, available to anyone willing to put in the time, sweat, strain, reps, & commitment.

The great Chinese masters didn't write their secrets down or whisper them in anyone's ear: they hid them in the forms.

Fighting forms, and strength & power development forms (they work together).

Please tell me what I'm missing about Stone Warrior...Well, for starters...Actual experience with the program as it's supposed to be done?

By your own admission, you never got to Square 1 with it.

I can explain for you and back up with science why Stone Warrior will not do what Green Dragon claims

In fact your approach is tending to sound much more like a variety of circular reasoning than anything "scientific."

You are aware, I take it, that modern science still doesn't even really know, eg, how muscle building actually occurs? That's pretty well-known in the body building literature, do you have some familiarity with it? Although it's been narrowed down to a couple or so theories about "tissue remodeling" etc.

Dynamic tension has its positives but as far as developing raw strength it will not get you very far

The externally-oriented, isotonically-based movements that make up the Stone Warrior are to be done according to a daily regimen of prescribed reps etc.

And oh yes, it does work. The 90 minutes a day---which is comparable to how long the internally-oriented Iron Vest takes per day, give or take a few---over a period of years (to get the full benefits) may be too much of a time/effort commitment for you (& 99% of all others who try it; no one is disputing that it's not for everyone in that sense), but that doesn't mean the fault lies in the design of the program itself. Not by a long shot.

And it has worked for a number of Green Dragon students who've stuck it out. (But not just GD students exclusively.)

So if you want to discuss this, let's go. If you're going to be a douche about it then forget it.

I really don't care what your opinion about the SW is one way or the other, being as it is, for all intents & purposes, an "argument" totally derived out of ignorance.

I'm curious, though: have you seen their tape on the No Lick Kuen beginner's strength set, the one that includes the lecture on Chinese strength programs?

It's not going to build insane strength or size like Green Dragon claims. This is irrespective of diet, training, anythingThey do point out that maximal benefits only come when the auxillary herbal medicine is used along with it.

But impressive gains are made even when these aren't available. When you do it the way they tell you to!

You keep leaving out---understandably, I guess, given that you seem to have no real experience with any of these kinds of programs, let alone the one presently under discussion---the fact that the Stone Warrior is also a body hardening & INTERNAL power-inducing program...As well as the significance of that aspect of the training.

And wtf is "Americanized" dynamic tension?

SW is not just a bunch of isotonic exercises, it's a formal Chinese strength & power program; to be done each and every day.

Nor is it intended to be applied with respect to Western, Americanized guidelines about rest, number of reps per set, etc and so on.

Every rep, once you've learned the exercises thoroughly ETC, is to be done with maximum effort.

That doesn't mean that each and every rep will be done at 100% of your max effort when fresh! It means no matter how tired you get (or are, from the previous day's session, eg), you keep giving your all on each rep, whatever that max may be at the time!

* * * * * * * *

So is there no one here who knows about the Chinese half-second paradigm (perhaps your terminology differs? But that shouldn't affect your knowledge of the principle, right?) and how it relates to forms training, Chinese-style fighting, and combat apps?

This is basic stuff. How are you working your forms correctly if you aren't incorporating those kinds of principles into the mechanics of executing each practice rep of a given fighting form?

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Almost forgot, in a coupla his past posts vis-a-vis the Stone Warrior training methodology, IronFist says things like the following:

Just remember to do the exercises half and half on each side (where applicable). On my copy of the tape, they don't show them all this way. For example, the first exercise (the "bear hugging" looking one; I don't know what to call it), that's pretty much done to the front so there's no left or right, although you should alternate which hand goes on top and which way you rotate your hands on each rep. But the second one, which is distinctly different on left/right, do that one one half on one side and then switch your stance and do it half on the other side.

So if I remember correctly it's like a forward bow and arrow stance or something. Do it first with your left foot in front and you swing your right arm over and then up and around while your left arm comes back to cover and then you do the right palm strike. Do half of your reps that way, and then switch to a right foot forward stance and do it on the other side (ending with a left palm strike) for the second half

This is completely INCORRECT! Several of the movements that make up the Stone Warrior set are intended to be done single-sided (done on one side, or with just the one arm, esp if it's an almost pure combat move or, in the case of the one he describes above---Exercise #2---a palm exercise); others are designed to be double-sided (facing each way, alternately).

Partly this relates to the internal aspects of the Stone Warrior program taken as a whole & done over time.

If you don't do it this way you may end up with muscle imbalances and that's no fun

You won't end up with muscle imbalances if you do the Stone Warrior the way it's supposed to be done, ie, do NOT follow IronFist's misguided, even if somewhat understandable from a Western, Americanizing POV, attempts to "correct" the teachings of the ancient Chinese master(s) who developed & perfected this superlative strength & power-enhancement program for use in augmenting your training, health, & fighting ability...

Cheers,
Iron Tiger

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 06:31 PM

The great Chinese masters didn't write their secrets down or whisper them in anyone's ear: they hid them in the forms.
Hiding "secret" techniques in forms... might have well throw them away.

In fact your approach is tending to sound much more like a variety of circular reasoning than anything "scientific."
Science is a very good paradigm to keep one from being bamboozled by charlatans.

You are aware, I take it, that modern science still doesn't even really know, eg, how muscle building actually occurs? That's pretty well-known in the body building literature, do you have some familiarity with it? Although it's been narrowed down to a couple or so theories about "tissue remodeling" etc.
Modern science has a pretty good idea about how muscle building occurs as well as knowing what type of training maximizes it.

The externally-oriented, isotonically-based movements that make up the Stone Warrior are to be done according to a daily regimen of prescribed reps etc.
What is supplying the external resistance? How many reps and sets are being done?

You won't end up with muscle imbalances if you do the Stone Warrior the way it's supposed to be done, ie, do NOT follow IronFist's misguided, even if somewhat understandable from a Western, Americanizing POV, attempts to "correct" the teachings of the ancient Chinese master(s) who developed & perfected this superlative strength & power-enhancement program for use in augmenting your training, health, & fighting ability...
What is your background in strength and conditioning?
Where have you gotten your information on the "western paradigm"?

And it has worked for a number of Green Dragon students who've stuck it out. (But not just GD students exclusively.)
Before/after pics???

Royal Dragon

12-11-2006, 06:34 PM

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 07:09 PM

In fact your approach is tending to sound much more like a variety of circular reasoning than anything "scientific."

Science is a very good paradigm to keep one from being bamboozled by charlatans

The scientific method is an excellent paradigm to avoid being gulled by all kinds of bamboozlers. But having your conclusion embedded in your premise, as it tends to sound like Ironfist has done, is NOT science, but one species of faulty logic & flawed reasoning called circular reasoning.

The secrets are hidden in the forms, available to those students who demonstrate their worthiness by doing the work it takes to get them out.

Forms training, if the forms are authentic & properly done, activates the chi, builds it up, circulates it, builds reflex action into the body, increases overall coordination & power (esp. if the form(s) consists of combinations of linear & circular movements), etc etc etc.

As I was taught, if posterity craps on 'em (ie the forms & proper training on them as well as respect for them), then posterity gets what it deserves (ie the waste & loss of all that knowledge, skill, unusual abilities, etc).

Modern science has a pretty good idea about how muscle building occurs as well as knowing what type of training maximizes it.

Modern science has an incomplete idea about how muscle building can and does occur. It is extremely limited in what it "knows" about isotonically-based types of exercise because it never designs its research parameters around the kinds of 'extremes' some of these Chinese, for example, strength sets employ. And then presumes to extrapolate from far, far too narrow a set of samples.

What is supplying the external resistance? How many reps and sets are being done?

That's been covered.

But, consider something as simple as the Snake Turns Over beginners' strength set/program. You start at 10 per arm and add one rep a day until you get to 100; stay at 100 for 10 days; then cycle back down (ie subtract one rep a day) until you get to something like 35 (varies with the aims of the student, but 35 is a good number if you want to retain what you built up over the time it took to complete the program as prescribed.

That probably doesn't sound like much. Almost everyone gets up to about 50 or so. Then, they hit a HUGE wall, and hardly anyone ever makes it through to completing what is by comparison a very simple & low-demand daily program.

Let alone the 36 reps per 21 exercises the Stone Warrior requires as its BASE number of minimum reps per day (some students have done it into 100+ reps per exercise!)

So these things are quite a bit harder than they look---or sound. Hardly that much of a surprise, then, that people who finish them get an unusual set of results from them, eh?

haveing done weight lifting too, Dynamic Tension is slow, and in efficient

Based on over 30 years of experience in various sports---including powerlifting--- competitor, coach, ref (up to and including the Div1 level), it is correct that weights are faster in the short run. But the Chinese isotonic programs---done as formal programs, not just exercise routines---eventually catch and far surpass what is possible with weights: especially if you're talking about benefiting your CMA.

They include internal aspects of various kinds---depending on the particular program---that weights etc simply do not.

Before/after pics???

lol! Even better, I thought, were the differences in appearance of some of the demonstrators on the GD tapes that were shot earlier on in their production series as compared to how they looked a couple or so years into the taping.

Some of their women compete from time to time---at least they used to---in benching competitions. And did pretty well, considering what a low priority it was for them (like brick breaking; done just to show the other things are working the way they're supposed to).

* * * * * * * *

Wow, this discussion board is the most challenging, from a purely technical standpoint, to post on than any other I've ever tried to participate in (usually football & weighttraining-related boards). I get logged out every time I hit 'Submit' (luckily I take the precaution of copying my post before I do this) and everything opens so slowly, is it always like this? Very, very frustrating. Just wondering.

Also I like how I get personal messages from people who support my views on the open board but who for some reason aren't willing to do it publicly (par for the course on MA boards, btw). Funny stuff!

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 08:07 PM

Based on over 30 years of experience in various sports---including powerlifting--- competitor, coach, ref (up to and including the Div1 level)...!
Which sports and competitions were you involved with?

...it is correct that weights are faster in the short run. But the Chinese isotonic programs---done as formal programs, not just exercise routines---eventually catch and far surpass what is possible with weights...
If this was the case, don't you think the Chinese would be dominating all strength related sports?

IronWeasel

12-11-2006, 08:16 PM

Stone warrior just sounds like some form of SanZhen to me. I have done dynamic tension exercises through Sanzhen, and I did get stronger. However, haveing done weight lifting too, Dynamic Tension is slow, and in efficient.

Weights will do in 3 months, what dynamic tension will do in 9

I just wanted to point out that isotonic tension exercises also increase muscle density. A large part of this depends on the range of motion within the exercise.
'Snake Turns Over', for example, built some muscle for me, but it also made my forearms HARD. When blocking and striking with the arms, 'nothing short of a crowbar can hurt your arm'(they said...) and it was true. I was surprised.

I've done weight training for my forearms etc...but NOTHING has ever conditioned my arms in such a unique manner. The 'crowbar' line above is not a wild claim, but something you will notice after about 60 days or so with Snake Turns Over.

It also builds a mean grip...

You will notice that different tension programs will produce a different set of results, with some focusing on arms, others generalizing on the whole body.

Iron Weasel

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 08:20 PM

If this was the case, don't you think the Chinese would be dominating all strength related sports?

Of course not.

Being Chinese doesn't make a person more likely to stick with these kinds of programs, why would you think that? Especially in today's world.

:D

Happy training, though, Kf.

;)

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 08:31 PM

Being Chinese doesn't make a person more likely to stick with these kinds of programs, why would you think that? Especially in today's world.
Are you kidding?

Anyone who has competed with any regularity knows there are innumerable competitors, both amateur and professional, who will do almost anything to have an advantage, especially if it means dominating your opponents. I've seen 60 year-old businessmen run 90 miles a week just so they can shave a few seconds off their 10K race times.

Elite athletes who wouldn't be willing to stick with a truly advantageous program- whom are you trying to fool?

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 08:32 PM

isotonic tension exercises also increase muscle density

The 'crowbar' line above is not a wild claim, but something you will notice after about 60 days or so with Snake Turns Over

Completely true! Congratulations, IW.

I've doubled & tripled the Snake Turns Over at various periods in my training history (and coupled one double program with a low-stance base).

As you might imagine, based on your own experiences with the 'base regimen,' it isn't long before you're running out of willing training partners for contact drills.

I would do a variant on the 3 star contact drill using a baton, rotating that every few days with a very rigorous session with solid iron bars of varying weight & thickness/length/density. Very, very difficult to 'tenderize' the bridge of the forearm, but once I did, the next few days of Snake Turns were felt deep down and the hardening effect multiplied way over & above the norm.

All this from a simple (in design) beginner's program.

And of course though a beginners' level set, it also has an internal component & effect, if one is able to complete all the reps. Right, IronWeasel?

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 08:39 PM

Elite athletes who wouldn't be willing to stick with a truly advantageous program- whom are you trying to fool?

Unfortunately, Knifefighter, you're not as smart as you think; only smart enough to outsmart yourself. But that's all right.

You clearly haven't had as much experience with 'elite' athletes---or a realistic evaluation of their true mindsets---as you'd like to think.

This stuff doesn't come in pill form. Even when pills, in the form of some of the medicines, are used to augment the hard work.

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 08:41 PM

Completely true! Congratulations, IW.
LOL @ "muscle density".

There is hypertrophy, which is increasing the size of the muscle fibers. This is the main way in which muscle size incrases. There is also hyperplasia, which is increasing the number of muscle fibers. It is debatable whether or not this can occur in humans, although there are a few studies which show it may occur in elite level bodybuilders.

That's it... There is no such thing as increasing muscle density

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 08:51 PM

That's it... There is no such thing as increasing muscle density

:eek: Next you'll be telling us there's no such thing as the Tooth Fairy!

I remember about 20 or so years ago when there was "no such thing" as regrowing brain cells or regenerating cortical neurons either.

Although one of my CMA had assured me that, in fact, it could and often did occur' as a result of some of the training we were doing, surprisingly enough.

Sho' nuff, coupla years later...Western scientists "discovered" this fact as well.

I'm sure you can connect some of the rest of the dots by yourself.

iron tiger

12-11-2006, 09:02 PM

who will do almost anything

Exactly: "almost."

I've seen countless examples of the kind of thing you mention (runners). In several different sports.

My theory is that it is the psychological component of the demands these programs make that seem to rule them out for the 'elite' people you allude to (to make a long story short).

The daily time demands notwithstanding.

Besides, who are you kidding? It's hard enough to find Chinese martial artists who will stick with these Chinese martial arts forms & programs! Which is why I had to laugh when I read the objection!

Sorry, man; you really don't get what this stuff is about.

It ain't no reindeer games, that's for sure.

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 10:31 PM

My theory is that it is the psychological component of the demands these programs make that seem to rule them out for the 'elite' people you allude to (to make a long story short).
The daily time demands notwithstanding.
Besides, who are you kidding? It's hard enough to find Chinese martial artists who will stick with these Chinese martial arts forms & programs! Which is why I had to laugh when I read the objection!.
Let's assume for a second that the super duper isotonic external resistance stone training did actually work- even though it goes against everything we currently know about strength training.

You can have the best program in the world, but if almost no one will stick with it because of the "daily time demands" and the "psychological component", for all intents and purposes, that would make it just about completely worthless for most people.

Knifefighter

12-11-2006, 11:10 PM

Even when pills, in the form of some of the medicines, are used to augment the hard work.
Let me guess... I can buy these super duper enhancing medicines directly from Green Dragon when I purchase the tapes.

Has anybody else figured out that this "Iron Tiger" person is the head of Green Dragon?

There must be a tremendous number of suckers out there if you are making serious bank on this snake oil BS.

IronFist

12-11-2006, 11:33 PM

Sorry for the triple post on the previous page. I was posting at work and it took 30 minutes to load, and so I tried it again and again and it seems they all went through.

I will try to address this thread tomorrow at work if I have time in between meetings (and if it lets me post). I know the Snake Turns Over set, too.

btw, another Green Dragon student told me to reverse the Stone Warrior stuff so everything is perfectly symmetrical.

Anyway tho, it's my bedtime. I'll try to write more tomorrow.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 02:26 AM

Yikes!! I am pretty much in agreement with Kinfe Fighter here, the Apocolypse must be comming!!

'Snake Turns Over', for example, built some muscle for me, but it also made my forearms HARD. When blocking and striking with the arms, 'nothing short of a crowbar can hurt your arm'(they said...) and it was true. I was surprised.

Reply]
I noticed this when I did a good course of SanZhen myself. Although I stopped it, and softened back up pretty quick, I can see how prolonged training would make good results in the hardeneing department, especially if combined with striking exercises.

Elite athletes who wouldn't be willing to stick with a truly advantageous program- whom are you trying to fool?

Unfortunately, Knifefighter, you're not as smart as you think; only smart enough to outsmart yourself. But that's all right.

You clearly haven't had as much experience with 'elite' athletes---or a realistic evaluation of their true mindsets---as you'd like to think.

Reply]
Knife Fighter is right. I know in the Olympic gymnastics world the hgh level gymmnasts do what they can to get the edge over ther competition. I've even seen clubs bring in coaches all the way from Romania.

Based on over 30 years of experience in various sports---including powerlifting--- competitor, coach, ref (up to and including the Div1 level), it is correct that weights are faster in the short run. But the Chinese isotonic programs---done as formal programs, not just exercise routines---eventually catch and far surpass what is possible with weights: especially if you're talking about benefiting your CMA.

Reply]
No way, sorry, it does not work that way. You cannot surpass weights.

They include internal aspects of various kinds---depending on the particular program---that weights etc simply do not.

Reply]
You can build internal with weights as well, buy useing routines that add progressive resistance to your internal mechanics. That is why Kettle Bells are so popular with martial artists.

There isn't anyone who could compare to an old school strong man, or powerlifter for raw strenght. You are deluded if you think otherwise.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 02:35 AM

But, consider something as simple as the Snake Turns Over beginners' strength set/program. You start at 10 per arm and add one rep a day until you get to 100; stay at 100 for 10 days; then cycle back down (ie subtract one rep a day) until you get to something like 35 (varies with the aims of the student, but 35 is a good number if you want to retain what you built up over the time it took to complete the program as prescribed.

That probably doesn't sound like much. Almost everyone gets up to about 50 or so. Then, they hit a HUGE wall, and hardly anyone ever makes it through to completing what is by comparison a very simple & low-demand daily program.

Let alone the 36 reps per 21 exercises the Stone Warrior requires as its BASE number of minimum reps per day (some students have done it into 100+ reps per exercise!)

So these things are quite a bit harder than they look---or sound. Hardly that much of a surprise, then, that people who finish them get an unusual set of results from them, eh?

Reply]
What you propose would take an insane amount of time, better spent on skill building. You could get more strength faster with weights. If you don't like barbells, use the locks, they are more sport specific anyway.

I have noticed that useing Dynamic tension imediately following a weight lifting session speeds development to a degree, but it's still the weigths that did the brunt of the gains. I still say it is better to use the dynamic tension stuff to augment other methods.

Let's assume for a second that the super duper isotonic external resistance stone training did actually work- even though it goes against everything we currently know about strength training.

You can have the best program in the world, but if almost no one will stick with it because of the "daily time demands" and the "psychological component", for all intents and purposes, that would make it just about completely worthless for most people.

Reply]
Well said. You could hit the weghts for 40 minutes, and get faster strength results, and spend the saved time on skill work.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 02:50 AM

Let me guess... I can buy these super duper enhancing medicines directly from Green Dragon when I purchase the tapes.

Has anybody else figured out that this "Iron Tiger" person is the head of Green Dragon?

Reply]
My thoughts exactly.

As for the herbal medicines. They are common in Chinese martial arts, and are very effective. Thye are not exclusive to Green Dragon. My system has a number of them as well. I have the recipies though, so I just order the herbs in bulk real cheap and make them myself.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 03:00 AM

I remember about 20 or so years ago when there was "no such thing" as regrowing brain cells or regenerating cortical neurons either.

Although one of my CMA had assured me that, in fact, it could and often did occur' as a result of some of the training we were doing, surprisingly enough.

Reply]
And how did this CMA know this? Was he some sort of research Scientists, in a postion to look at brains all day and see first hand that certian exercises had this effect? Or was he just talking out his ass and by freak luck said something right?

Ford Prefect

12-12-2006, 07:49 AM

LOL @ "muscle density".

There is hypertrophy, which is increasing the size of the muscle fibers. This is the main way in which muscle size incrases. There is also hyperplasia, which is increasing the number of muscle fibers. It is debatable whether or not this can occur in humans, although there are a few studies which show it may occur in elite level bodybuilders.

That's it... There is no such thing as increasing muscle density

KF,

Hypertrophy increasing the size of muscle fibers is referred to as myofabrillar hypertrophy. This could be said to make the muscle denser since there is very little physical size gain when this happens.

There is also hypertrophy of muscle sarcoplasm (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy), which is a non-contractile element of the muscle that is responsible for storing/delivering muscle glycogen. It is a type of endoplasm that surrounds the myofabrils themselves. This is what is commonly thought of as muscle growth since the physical size gain can be substantial, and it is the primary hypertrophy mode of bodybuilders.

Unfortunately, the typical mode of hypertrophy taught in many personal trainer courses and even in some university sports science classes is called sarcomeric hypertophy, which obviously includes myofabrils and sarcoplasm. In essence, it is catch all term for changes that occur in both myofabrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

True, hyperplasia, is still well in question in humans. Perhaps if we mate with cats or rats. ;)

Knifefighter

12-12-2006, 10:11 AM

Hypertrophy increasing the size of muscle fibers is referred to as myofabrillar hypertrophy. This could be said to make the muscle denser since there is very little physical size gain when this happens.

There is also hypertrophy of muscle sarcoplasm (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy), which is a non-contractile element of the muscle that is responsible for storing/delivering muscle glycogen. It is a type of endoplasm that surrounds the myofabrils themselves. This is what is commonly thought of as muscle growth since the physical size gain can be substantial, and it is the primary hypertrophy mode of bodybuilders.
While it is true the the aqueous portion of the cell is responsible for a large portion of hypertrophy, especially in the short term, there is no evidence that the myfibrils become more dense as a result of training. There is no way to change the structure of a contractile protein such as myosin or actin to make it more dense, as it would then be a completely different protein.

Hypertrophy itself is evidence that increasing cell density does not occur. Training increases the components of the fibers (the contractile proteins, capillaries, glycogen and fat). None of these components can be altered in terms of density, which is why the muscle must increase in size (fitting more stuff inside the cell- kind of like blowing up a balloon).

Unfortunately, the typical mode of hypertrophy taught in many personal trainer courses and even in some university sports science classes is called sarcomeric hypertophy, which obviously includes myofabrils and sarcoplasm. In essence, it is catch all term for changes that occur in both myofabrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
That is because, functionally, you really can't distinguish one from the other. There is no special training routine that will increase only the size of the myofibrils.

Ford Prefect

12-12-2006, 11:57 AM

While it is true the the aqueous portion of the cell is responsible for a large portion of hypertrophy, especially in the short term, there is no evidence that the myfibrils become more dense as a result of training. There is no way to change the structure of a contractile protein such as myosin or actin to make it more dense, as it would then be a completely different protein.

Hypertrophy itself is evidence that increasing cell density does not occur. Training increases the components of the fibers (the contractile proteins, capillaries, glycogen and fat). None of these components can be altered in terms of density, which is why the muscle must increase in size (fitting more stuff inside the cell- kind of like blowing up a balloon).

It really depends on the definition of "more dense". If by more dense, you are talking about the muscle fibers remaining the same exact size but getting heavier, then you are right. If you are talking about muscle fibers growing an extremely small amount, but there being more myofabrils per unit of measurement than in comparison to an untrained individual than I am correct. Kind of semantics thing that can go in circles for days, so I'm really not interested in continuing it.

That is because, functionally, you really can't distinguish one from the other. There is no special training routine that will increase only the size of the myofibrils.

Actually there is. Because of the nature and function of muscle sarcoplasm, it will undergo hypertrophy when energy demands of the muscle exceed it's energy store. Commonly ways to initiate this is to work to failure and work in the higher rep ranges (8-20) Similarly, myofabrils will grow in number when the contractile capacity of the muscle itself is challenged. To enduce such change, one can work consistently in the lower rep ranges (1-6).

While attempting to enduce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, you will undergo some myofabrillar as well. The inverse is generally not true though, or if so, it is to a far lesser degree. It's not like myofabrils and sarcoplasm hypertrophy uniformally whenever hypertrophy occurs regardless of training program. Each has it's own function in muscles, thus each will be effected by differently by the same stimuli.

IronFist

12-12-2006, 12:23 PM

IIRC there's no evidence that dynamic tension (muscles working against themselves) actually leads to increased strength. You need progressive overload from an external source.

I will give you that Stone Warrior, Snake Turns Over, and etc., give you good muscular endurance. I don't know many people that can sustain constant tension for 90 minutes. But by definition you cannot train hard AND long. If you are holding tension for 90 minutes, you are not using much tension. A powerlifter, one of the strongest people on the planet, does sets with 1-5 reps to enable him to use heavy weights. These sets last maybe 10-20 seconds tops because while using heavy weights you cannot go for very long. By the same logic you cannot sprint a marathon.

Why is this important? Because of S.A.I.D. (specific adaptations to imposed demands). Your body gets better at what you make it do. This is why marathoners don't train for marathons by running sprints. This is why powerlifters don't do sets with low weights and high reps. Your body gets STRONGER by fighting against heavy resistance. If you can go for 90 minutes then it is not "heavy" by definition. Factor in that you're not even using an external source of resistance and you have a program that will generate minimal, if any, STRENGTH gains.

Muscular endurance? Yes.
Muscle "hardness?" Probably (conjecture)
Strength? Minimally.

Take a 120 pound noob who can bench 80lbs. Make him do ONLY Stone Warrior as his only form of strength training for a year. After a year he might be able to bench 100 or 110, but he'll have crazy muscular endurance.

Take that same 120 pound noob and put him on a powerlifting program. After a year he'll be benching 160+ with minimal weight gain but he'll probably have crap endurance.

Why? S.A.I.D.

The first noob was never exposed to heavy weights and thus he never developed much strength. He was exposed to work requiring lots of endurance and thus he developed lots of endurance.

The second noob was exposed to heavy weights and thus he developed much strength. He was never required to do anything requiring endurance so he didn't develop any.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 12:49 PM

What if one trains for strength AND endurance?

IronFist

12-12-2006, 03:50 PM

What if one trains for strength AND endurance?

Then one would need strength building stimuli and endurance building stimuli.

But both goals cannot be achieved maximally. Chances are (except in the case of crazy genetics), someone is not going to be a champion sprinter AND marathoner, or at least not at the same time. Sometimes a happy medium can be reached.

iron tiger

12-12-2006, 07:19 PM

1) The Stone Warrior works just as advertised. But as has been said, it isn't for everyone.

The only other thing I'd add is this caveat: it's an advanced-level strength & power set. Taking it on too early in your training career is an almost certain recipe for failure. Work through a beginner's whole body set like the No Lick Kuen, combined with maybe the Snake Turns Over, to learn how to apply that kind of tension the way it's required in order to have success with the more comprehensive things like the Goun Gee Kuen or Stone Warrior.

Of course don't shortchange the Iron Buddha strength set, either; just remember it takes 3 years to get from it what it's designed to provide. Whereas the genuine Stone Warrior will keep giving results for the rest of your life.

Results FAR in excess of anything you could ever get out of weight training; especially from an internal power standpoint, something Royal Drag., IF, and Knifer---regardless of what they'd like to believe about themselves---clearly have almost zero actual experience with or meaningful knowledge of.

2) For some of the more ambitious people out there who may have some curiosity about the type of training (Chinese martial arts in the classical tradition, ie as it was done prior to about 1930; pre-Americanization ;) ) alluded to in some of these posts:

Get hold of about 4 or 5 authentic Chinese fighting sets (preferably at least one of them advanced level), the Snake Turns Over strength set, and the No Lick Kuen whole body strength set.

Learn all the steps thoroughly. Do at least 40 reps per day, every day, of each of the fighting forms (you can break it up into 2 or 3 training sessions); and do the two strength programs (Snake Turns Over takes about 35 minutes a day to do the 100 reps at that point in the program; No Lick Kuen will take roughly half an hour or so to get its 10---minimum---in.

Do this for 8 months. See what happens.

It won't be a waste of time. And it will give you some very small taste of what serious training can be about.

Just a suggestion. Not the best way, but it's about the minimum you can do and still expect to get some kind of, shall we say, 'noticeable' benefits from such an approach to this kind of material.

1 out of 100. It's not for everyone. Maybe the sport styles & recreational approaches are more your thing; such is life.

And you'll notice that, still, not one of these guys has said a single thing about that half-second paradigm in Chinese fighting.

;)

3) Me, the head of Green Dragon? Not hardly. But I did what they told me, even when I had to take a lot of it on faith, and against what I thought I "knew" about strength training, hard work, etc, and found out that people like Ark Wong, Feman Ong, Master Kao, Grandmaster Chang, & others did know what they were doing when they passed some of their teachings along to guys like Allen & Chicoine.

Good luck in your training.

Knifefighter

12-12-2006, 08:01 PM

1) And you'll notice that, still, not one of these guys has said a single thing about that half-second paradigm in Chinese fighting
Never heard of it... maybe you could explain it.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 09:08 PM

Give me ONLY the Tai Tzu 32 move form, a set of Chinese locks, a fallen tree branch, and some string, and I can train some guys that will smoke your 8 monthers, in 6 months......

I don't even need a training hall, just a good forest preserve, or park.

IronWeasel

12-12-2006, 09:48 PM

IronWeasel

12-12-2006, 09:56 PM

Well said. You could hit the weghts for 40 minutes, and get faster strength results, and spend the saved time on skill work.

Stone Warrior , etc. DO take a large amount of time. Snake Turns Over takes about 20-25 seconds per rep (1 rep being right arm and left arm). So by the time I realized the resilts I was up to 60-70 reps, which is 20 minutes or so. Once you complete the Program, your arms stay hard for a long time and you can fall back to 'maintenance' amounts if training time is an issue.

Just TRY it...

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 10:03 PM

I have San Zhen in my Southern Tai Tzu system. It's a dynamic tension set too.

I have experiance the hardening effect from it, but in all honesty, I am persuing the internal side of my style now, and all that tension just messes me up.

Lohan Fury

12-13-2006, 12:51 AM

I've been through the Stone Warrior program. I started it at 9 reps and built up to 47 reps. I definitely felt a difference, and my Sifu will vouch for me on that. As a side note I was lifting weights and did lots of Tai Chi in conjunction with S.W. At the 36 rep mark it takes about an hour and a half to finish. That being said you can imagine what it would be like at 100+ reps PER DAY! No thanks..;)

"Everything in moderation". At the end of S.W. you have your blood pressure going through the roof, and you've spent a ton of Yang energy. Without some sort of balance you are only hurting yourself.

Dynamic tension is great not because it creates more muscle or even a more dense muscle, but because you trigger your nervous system into simply using more of the muscle that is already there! Our comrade Pavel explains that idea in his book "Power to the People", which I'd recommend to anyone practicing tension exercises.

Just keep in mind there is "no end all be all", only small pieces to a bigger puzzle..

_/\_

IronFist

12-13-2006, 09:18 AM

^ LF did you do the exercises one sided, or did you do them symetrically?

Everyone else, if SW principles worked so soundly, professional and olympic athletes would be using them. There's a reason strongmen don't do SW. There's a reason powerlifters don't do SW. There's a reason UFC fighters don't do SW or incorporate its principles. Think about this for a sec: For many of these people, their livelihood depends on their athletic performance. If they perform well, they get paid, they eat, they live. If not, they have to find themselves new jobs. These people do whatever it takes to get the edge. They risk their professional and personal careers by using designer drugs (and masking agents, hehe). They have professionals (and I don't mean the kind you find working at your city's gym) designing their nutrition programs. Their programs are designed based on decades of sport science research. If constant dynamic tension was the most efficient method of any sort of development, these people would be doing it.

It's better than nothing. If I had no weights or anything else I would probably do SW. But because I have weights, I can achieve better results in less time.

I know how you feel. I used to do iron body (Wing Lam's kind with the internal exercises, bags, and jow) and SW every day. I know the arm hardness that you're talking about (of course, mine were already conditioned to take hits because of the iron body). When I flexed my forearm it was like a rock (and tiny). I used to talk **** about weightlifting and weight lifters. I used to think that my kung fu was effective in a real fight and grapplers could be stopped by kneeing them in the face when they came in for a take down. Then I got schooled in an MMA gym by someone in their first MONTH of training. Then I realized I got more out of weightlifting in a month than I did out of SW in a 6 months. My muscles are still 90% as "hard" as they were when I was doing SW, except I'm much, much stronger now, and I no longer hold any of the erroneous beliefs about weight training that permeate through the MA world.

If it works for you then keep doing it. I'm going to keep lifting weights and trying to find an MMA school around here so I can start training again because that's what works for me.

But when you're debating, you need more than conjecture to back up your points.

Knifefighter

12-13-2006, 11:18 AM

There will probably always be a market for people who want to believe they will get an advantage by using some ancient secret training method.

As PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

I think I am going to market the ancient "training by osmosis" program that I have been using only for myself and a few close disciples up until now. This was a secret method used by the very first Shaolin Monks to transfer their lifetime of learning to their students...; lots of mystical incantations, herbs, and specialized forms. It far surpasses any training method that is currently being used. I have had the original scrolls for some time, but am only now thinking about releasing these secrets.

Royal Dragon

12-13-2006, 11:56 AM

Your ancient *Osmossis* will NEVER beat my Caveasaurus Combat!! :D

Knifefighter

12-13-2006, 12:36 PM

Your ancient *Osmossis* will NEVER beat my Caveasaurus Combat!! :D
Training by osmosis is far superior and I can prove it to you. I will send you the entire program, including all the natural herbs at a special discounted price of only $399.00 plus monthly payments of $59.95. I guarantee you will see phenomenal results better than anything you could hope to achieve with anything else. Just use it for the requisite six years that it takes for it to have an effect.

All you have to do to get started is to email me your bank account number, the routing code, your social security #, your mother's maiden name, and your pin #.
If you are not completely amazed by your results after six years, I will send you your money back.

Royal Dragon

12-13-2006, 12:49 PM

Well, I guess I can't beat that pitch!!

My routing number is........

IronFist

12-13-2006, 11:27 PM

All you have to do to get started is to email me your bank account number, the routing code, your social security #, your mother's maiden name, and your pin #.
If you are not completely amazed by your results after six years, I will send you your money back.

Zomg! Are you Nigerian royalty?

Royal Dragon

12-14-2006, 01:25 AM

Doubt it, but I bet he is a Nigerian banker for a reacnetly deceased oil tycoon!

Lohan Fury

12-14-2006, 02:05 AM

^ LF did you do the exercises one sided, or did you do them symetrically?

I've always alternated sides halfway through. It just doesn't make sense at all to train one side of your body and neglect the other. ;)

I'm still skeptical about the claims to students performing 100+ reps a day. 47 reps took around 2hrs, so 100.. 4hrs or more of nothing but tension!?? There's no way that's healthy. Hope that student is prepared for an unexpected stroke or something of the likeness. (not to mention I'd rather spend 4hrs on something more worth that amount of dedication) :D

_/\_

Royal Dragon

12-14-2006, 06:51 AM

I wouldn't do more than 40 minutes. Whne I did SanZhen, is was exaughsted in 40 minutes. When it got easier, I just tensed up more to increase the difficulty, so in 40 minnutes I was wiped out still.

iron tiger

12-19-2006, 08:49 PM

There's a reason strongmen don't do SW. There's a reason powerlifters don't do SW. There's a reason UFC fighters don't do SW or incorporate its principles ETC

Of course. The list of "reasons" is virtually infinite. But none of them have to do with the Stone Warrior 'not working.'

Give me ONLY the Tai Tzu 32 move form, a set of Chinese locks, a fallen tree branch, and some string, and I can train some guys that will smoke your 8 monthers, in 6 months......

Of course, what was suggested as an 8 month orientation was not for fighting purposes; it was just about the bare minimum a serious, dedicated, hard-working martial arts student would likely need to do in order to discover for him-or-her self that none of the self-proclaimed 'experts' posting here know a thing about what actually happens to/in your body in training on these things the way one is supposed to (as opposed to how most CMA students wish it were done).

Assuming that one undertook the forms & reps per day along with the Chinese strength sets suggested & as specified using no slack time or easy reps or letting up on the tension etc.

And how did this CMA know this? Was he some sort of research Scientists, in a postion to look at brains all day and see first hand that certian exercises had this effect?

Many of the old masters knew about this, and other, effects induced by proper training. And passed the knowledge down the line in certain cases.

The long history of the CMA includes a large percentage of varying kinds & levels of brutality, for those who need reminding.

But by definition you cannot train hard AND long

Actually you can. If by 'hard' you mean with maximum effort, whatever your ultimate max may be on a given rep.

But few, if any, athletes can start out with this kind of capability. You have to start slowly and gradually build up to it. There's very little carry over from experience in things like weight lifting, btw, you have to really teach your body how stay properly tensed (paradoxically under a kind of relaxed tension) maximally while still allowing correct movement to take place.

It's worth noting: lifting weights is almost all rest; very little of each movement requires maximum effort, although this can vary depending, eg, on how you happen to be working the negative part of a rep etc. Whereas these isotonically-based exercises, particularly when done as full-blown programs as opposed to mere occasional collections of exercises, are 100% work done with total effort.

Every muscle. From the toes to the head. Every day.

I have experiance the hardening effect from it, but in all honesty, I am persuing the internal side of my style now, and all that tension just messes me up

Contrary to popular belief, the two (internal & external) are neither antithetical nor mutually exclusive of each other. Many authentic Chinese strength & power programs build both simultaneously; the Stone Warrior (eg exercises #8 & 19), for instance.

;)

And while I would tend to believe you may have experienced some of the hardening effects from some of the more widely utilized types of dynamic tension exercises, everything else you say makes it a virtual certainty that you have no where near experienced the complete hardening effects of such programs.

I've been through the Stone Warrior program. I started it at 9 reps and built up to 47 reps

I sincerely doubt it. That it was done correctly, that is, if in fact it was done at all, daily, at maximum tension, for the period of time it would require to build from 9 reps per exercise to 47.

Just about impossible to get to that number, correctly done, without inducing some of the collateral internal effects.

:D

My muscles are still 90% as "hard" as they were when I was doing SW

More direct evidence that your 'in-depth' knowledge of SW is utter b.s. Again: in truth, you never got to square 1 with it. And I'm pretty well certain you didn't complete the Snake Turns Over program, either. Otherwise you'd have something to say about it's internal aspects. ;)

As PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

And 99 out of 100 of them call themselves "traditional Chinese martial artists" when in fact the majority of their training is Westernized & karate-fied...

4hrs or more of nothing but tension!??

No--movement under tension. :D

There's no way that's healthy

Demonstrating, yet again, that there's no way any of you guys knows a darn thing about the internal aspects of these sets; ie that, if you did do try them to various extents, you certainly didn't do them correctly or finish them out.

It is true that in many cases it's the teaching which is at fault; but it's also obvious that there's usually a heckuva lot of "cooperation" on the part of such instuctors' paying students, too.

You can have the best program in the world, but if almost no one will stick with it because of the "daily time demands" and the "psychological component", for all intents and purposes, that would make it just about completely worthless for most people

Who said this stuff was for "most people"? It is not, especially if all you are interested in are the sport styles & approaches.

Then I realized I got more out of weightlifting in a month than I did out of SW in a 6 months

I still say it is better to use the dynamic tension stuff to augment other methods.

Well said. You could hit the weghts for 40 minutes, and get faster strength results, and spend the saved time on skill work.

Sure, if sport style or Westernized CMA & the relatively low-level skill level it/they require is your preference, weights are better. But I thought I had already said that (in various ways; eg "1 out of 99" etc).

Clearly, weights are better for most of the people who frequent most of the internet MA boards.

But every now & then, an IronWeasel type does pass through. And those are the guys, the rare exceptions, the ones who structure their training & goals around things like the Chinese half-second paradigm from very early on, some of us are directing the info to.

But best of luck in your training whatever choice you make.

Royal Dragon

12-19-2006, 09:05 PM

And how did this CMA know this? Was he some sort of research Scientists, in a postion to look at brains all day and see first hand that certian exercises had this effect?

Many of the old masters knew about this, and other, effects induced by proper training. And passed the knowledge down the line in certain cases.

Reply]
And exactly *How* did they know this? Did they have ancient electron micorscopes coupled with Exray, or MIR machines to measure the cellular growth in the human brian when they trained?

How did they figure it out? You can't just majically *Know* something that is going in on the INSIDE of a sealed skull, on the cellular level.

If that were possible, we would not need MRI's Exrays, or Ultra sound to diagnose patients today....

Royal Dragon

12-19-2006, 09:09 PM

It's worth noting: lifting weights is almost all rest; very little of each movement requires maximum effort, although this can vary depending, eg, on how you happen to be working the negative part of a rep etc. Whereas these isotonically-based exercises, particularly when done as full-blown programs as opposed to mere occasional collections of exercises, are 100% work done with total effort.

Every muscle. From the toes to the head. Every day.

Reply]
You cna't do maximum effort, and be able to perform for any length of time.

Also, without recoverytime, the body will not develop quickly, and will be suseptable to injury. You cannot go 100% 7 days a week, and expect to perform at your full potential. You get more development during rest that you did during the exercises you are resting from.

This has nothig ot do with Chinese, or Western thinking, it's a biological fact that cannot be disputed.

iron tiger

12-19-2006, 09:12 PM

How did they figure it out?

Think about it. I did give you a clue.

iron tiger

12-19-2006, 09:16 PM

You cna't do maximum effort, and be able to perform for any length of time.

Also, without recoverytime, the body will not develop quickly, and will be suseptable to injury. You cannot go 100% 7 days a week, and expect to perform at your full potential. You get more development during rest that you did during the exercises you are resting from.

This has nothig ot do with Chinese, or Western thinking, it's a biological fact that cannot be disputed.

Sorry, Kemosabe; wrong on all counts. Just another set of 'arguments from ignorance'.

You guys don't know the exceptions because you confine yourselves to the everyday, commonly accepted 'facts' and approaches to training. The old Chinese, thankfully, did not.

Sweet dreams.

Knifefighter

12-19-2006, 09:53 PM

Of course, what was suggested as an 8 month orientation was not for fighting purposes; it was just about the bare minimum a serious, dedicated, hard-working martial arts student would likely need to do in order to discover for him-or-her self that none of the self-proclaimed 'experts' posting here know a thing about what actually happens to/in your body in training on these things the way one is supposed to (as opposed to how most CMA students wish it were done).
Since you are also representing yourself to be a "self-proclaimed expert", maybe you could post your resume to provide some substantiation to your claims.

Knifefighter

12-20-2006, 05:46 PM

TTT for IT's resume.

Yao Sing

12-20-2006, 05:55 PM

Let me translate that request for iron tiger.

How many guys have you beat up in an MMA match?
:)

Knifefighter

12-20-2006, 06:47 PM

Not at all.

Just some verification he has some clue about which he is talking other than being the man behind the curtain selling snake oil.

Competition record in strength sports (he stated he had competed in a variety of athletic events, including powerlifting), background in strength and conditioning, pictures showing the results of his training- those would all give evidence of credibility and could be checked.

However, I'm betting he is just a flabby, out of shape kung fu teacher trying to sell a product that he really has no experience with in terms of actually using.

iron tiger

12-20-2006, 08:51 PM

pictures showing the results of his training

Very well, then. Here is the most recent relevant photo handy:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/tamingthetiger/manofsteel.jpg

Since you are also representing yourself to be a "self-proclaimed expert"

Which of course I did not do at all. Guys like GM Chang, Master Ong, etc, are the experts. And Chicoine & Allen and many of their students certainly have a more comprehensive knowledge & experience with real Chinese kung fu than I ever will.

But I do know the difference between you guys' horses[...] and TCMA Shinola.

;)

Knifefighter

12-20-2006, 09:58 PM

Very well, then. Here is the most recent relevant photo handy:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/tamingthetiger/manofsteel.jpg)

Yeah, I'd say that looks about right based on the BS you have been spewing.

Royal Dragon

12-21-2006, 09:12 AM

But I do know the difference between you guys' horses[...] and TCMA Shinola.

Reply]
Apparently not.

ekaltenborn

12-21-2006, 10:11 AM

I used to work in a health club in the Akron area and a young man used to come in and work on his sets that he learned at the Green Dragon Kung Fu group that met at Kent State.

While the young man was very pleasant, and passionate about what he did, he had a very closed mind, and was not very skilled.

He worked very hard at his forms but even after a couple years of seeing him train, he did not get any better. The sets were still very rigid, and lacked power.

Truly I havent seen anyone with significant understanding of how to extract the tactics from the sets and make them actually work come out of that group. Even the students that were self proclaimed "advanced students" were slow and rigid.

There used to be stories going around town about Mr. Allen's "disciples" doing his yard work, house work, etc... Strange...

I would however, if the stories are true... love to find hout how he got them to buy into that deal... I would love to finjd a way to get out of cutting my lawn!:D

IronWeasel

12-21-2006, 04:20 PM

Even the students that were self proclaimed "advanced students" were slow and rigid.

Fistly: People who go around 'self proclaiming' about how advanced they are, usually aren't. I hope you haven't based your opinions on some smooth talking beginners. The ranked students that I have observed demonstrated good form and power.

There used to be stories going around town about Mr. Allen's "disciples" doing his yard work, house work, etc... Strange...

I would however, if the stories are true... love to find hout how he got them to buy into that deal... I would love to finjd a way to get out of cutting my lawn!:D

Some of this is true. Sifu Allen wanted the students to show respect to their instructors similar to a traditional school in China. Students would volunteer their time to clean up, and maintain the school (just like some people do at their local church). I've heard of this a lot from Karate schools as well.

ekaltenborn

12-21-2006, 04:34 PM

ok... I tried to be politically correct....apparently you couldnt see through the lines...

most of what I have seen from there is low grade dog**** kung fu...

In my opinion, having a student come to your house and do your chores is simply an exploitation of their naivete.... unethical to say the least.

How can you compare it to a church?...... a martial arts school is nothing like a church....

:rolleyes:

IronWeasel

12-21-2006, 04:46 PM

ok... I tried to be politically correct....apparently you couldnt see through the lines...

Apparently?? C'mon...you're not gonna turn this into one of THOSE threads are you? Would you like to discuss some content, or just do a little bashing? I can read all of the likes just fine, thanks for asking.

In my opinion, having a student come to your house and do your chores is simply an exploitation of their naivete.... unethical to say the least.

How can you compare it to a church?...... a martial arts school is nothing like a church....
:rolleyes:

Ever clap the erasers in school? Wash the chalkboard? You spend time wearing and tearing, sweating and bleeding at the training facility...clean up after yourself.
It's just being polite...I don't mind sweeping up after class.

You can do his laundry, tho. ;)

ekaltenborn

12-21-2006, 04:52 PM

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 05:04 PM

Royal Dragon

12-21-2006, 05:31 PM

They don't have all the corrections themselves anyway, so learning it from them live would be no different than learning from thier videos.

IronWeasel

12-21-2006, 05:59 PM

oh no... not going to be THAT kind of thread at all...

Please, enlighten me as to the content....where does it come from... ?... Who can attest to its legitimacy?...

What exactly can a person who starts studying with that gruop expect to learn?....

Well, I guess this is where lineage comes in to play. Sifu allen's teachers: Feemon Ong, Gao-dao Shang, Ark Wong, Chang Dung Sheng, etc. Ong seems to get some bad press on this forum, but all are credible sources of material and well known and respected. Do you agree with me that these are legitimate sources of Chinese martial arts?

A student should expect to learn the complete authentic material, combat applications as well as the ability to derive applications from other material on their own...just to scratch the surface.

IronWeasel

12-21-2006, 06:03 PM

Bottom line about Green Dragon studios is ... why do you want to learn off of videos anyway?

Do you really think you can get forms off of videos, without the instruction of a live teacher and corrections and all of that?

Good point. I feel that a live teacher is critical to proper training and instruction. After a some years of learning forms, I have improved my ability to interpret the combat applications withinn them. I use a few of their video tapes to supplement the training that I have received in person.

As far as corrections...I know what to look for when I crtique other people, so MY performance shouldn't be TOO bad. A brutally honest critique once in a while WOULD be nice, though.

IronWeasel

12-21-2006, 06:11 PM

They don't have all the corrections themselves anyway, so learning it from them live would be no different than learning from thier videos.

They don't have all the corrections, anyway??:rolleyes:

You must be reading from the "Great Big Book of Kung Fu Corrections".
It tells you which 'corrections' that Green Dragon has and which ones they don't.

That way you can make sweeping generalizations on the internet and ACTUALLY cite a source!

Yer killin' me, man!!!

Seroiusly, R.D....help me to understand the weakpoints in my training. No bashing... If you have a criticism, be specific, so that the deficience can be corrected.

Thanks.

IronWeasel <--- goin' Christmas shoppin'. Wish me luck...

Knifefighter

12-21-2006, 06:28 PM

....help me to understand the weakpoints in my training. No bashing... If you have a criticism, be specific, so that the deficience can be corrected.

After a some years of learning forms, I have improved my ability to interpret the combat applications withinn them. I use a few of their video tapes to supplement the training that I have received in person.
If you are spending your time trying to interpret movements from forms, that's exactly what is wrong with your training.

Yao Sing

12-21-2006, 06:30 PM

As far as corrections...I know what to look for when I crtique other people, so MY performance shouldn't be TOO bad. A brutally honest critique once in a while WOULD be nice, though.

Have you posted a clip yet?

lunghushan

12-21-2006, 06:33 PM

They don't have all the corrections, anyway??:rolleyes:

You must be reading from the "Great Big Book of Kung Fu Corrections".
It tells you which 'corrections' that Green Dragon has and which ones they don't.

That way you can make sweeping generalizations on the internet and ACTUALLY cite a source!

I had a few of their videos that I bought off of EBay, but I tossed them. I don't really think they are useful. The apps they had were pretty okay, I guess, but not something I'd really want to study. The forms, were, well I don't think you can learn forms off of video.

One had a chick breaking a concrete thingey. That one was pretty good just in that I'd never seen a chick do that before.

RAF

12-21-2006, 10:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8B__zA6KM&mode=related&search=

I don't think Femon Ong's material ever had this flavor although his son Steven may have studied under Gao Dao Sheng. Gao Dao Sheng taught publicly in the park at Taiwan.

If you scroll down, you will see Tony Yang with Gao Dao Sheng. They taught next to each other in Taiwan.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/photos/masteryang/masteryang.htm

Sal Canzonieri

12-22-2006, 12:10 AM

Well, I guess this is where lineage comes in to play. Sifu allen's teachers: Feemon Ong, Gao-dao Shang, Ark Wong, Chang Dung Sheng, etc. Ong seems to get some bad press on this forum, but all are credible sources of material and well known and respected. Do you agree with me that these are legitimate sources of Chinese martial arts?

A student should expect to learn the complete authentic material, combat applications as well as the ability to derive applications from other material on their own...just to scratch the surface.

Sorry for butting into this, but:
yes, they are legitimate sources of CMA, but all I or most people have ever seen of Green Dragon's forms is their videos, and unless they were deliberately done 'wrong' so that people couldn't 'only' learn the form from the video, these forms
are pretty terrible in the fact that they are mostly well known forms that look barely executed to standard.

I've judged tournaments for many years, etc, etc, and never have I seen these forms done so stiffly, so out of character with the styles that the came from.
That's my personal opinion.

I've shown the videos to people from those styles, and until I showed them the title of the form on the video, they could not figure out what form they were seeing.
For example, the Ba Ji Quan form, shows nothing of the flavor of any Ba Ji I have done or others I have seen do, all the GD tapes I have seen look like
Chinese forms done like Karate forms, with all the flavor, the body mechanics of karate.

Maybe Green Dragon school has fantastic stuff that they teach their students, the only thing I am saying is that their videos just don't show it and make poor ambassadors for the school.

ginosifu

12-22-2006, 05:29 AM

ekaltenborn

12-22-2006, 07:16 AM

Very well said Ginosifu. Like i said in my original post, I have seen these guys around for years when I lived in Akron. They are very passionate about what they do. Theres no doubt they train hard. I just cant see the combatives... A very good instructor once told me, martial arts is something you do with someone (a sport).... combatives are something you do to someone... I just dont see the combatives there. I see a bunch of half baked forms... In short I agree with you, if Mr. Allen can show some legitimate kung fu, that he can effectively extract combative tactics out of and know what it means and does... I would love to see it!! Until that time, I guess my opinion remains that its mostly his interpretation of something he saw on video.

Royal Dragon

12-22-2006, 07:27 AM

That way you can make sweeping generalizations on the internet and ACTUALLY cite a source!

Reply]
I am going off of the tapes that are put out, and I site myself and my 17 uears of experiance in the martial arts as my source.

>>Yer killin' me, man!!!

Seroiusly, R.D....help me to understand the weakpoints in my training. No bashing... If you have a criticism, be specific, so that the deficience can be corrected.

Reply]

I explained this before. Chinese martial arts round the shoulders, sink the chest, keep the back straight, and tuck the tail bone. Green dragon perfromers do the exact opposite, which is totally wrong for ANY athletic endeavore, let alone Chinese martial arts.

Instead of rounding the shoulders, they pull them back as much as they can. Instead of sinking the chest, they puff it out (Do you guys even know what sinking the chest is?) Instead of keeping the back stright, they arch it back, instead of tucking the tail bone, they stick the butt out.

All of thier basic FUNDEMENTAL body structure is 180 degrees wrong for Chinese martial arts. Even MMA guys get it right, and even the ones that don't get it right are at least neutral. Green dragon guys not only fail to hold the propper structure, but they go one step worse than most and actually exagerate the improper strucure in the wrong direction.

I have not even gotten into the Mechanics of thier movement (Which is based on the foundation of body structure) which is even worse.

And I don't believe that they do it wrong for the tape. It can be seen by how they move during unconcious actions that they have trained long, and hard to be this bad.

The one positive I can offer is that they did seem to be very strong, and highly condiditoned. But I do take offence with thier attitude that they are the only ones. I have yet to find a Kung Fu school without highly conditioned practitioners, especially amongst the seniors. Heck, even OYD has strong, highly conditioned practitioners thru out it 's ranks.

Face it, Green Dragon is just not *All That*

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 07:32 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8B__zA6KM&mode=related&search=

I don't think Femon Ong's material ever had this flavor although his son Steven may have studied under Gao Dao Sheng. Gao Dao Sheng taught publicly in the park at Taiwan.[/url]
Does anyone really think that fighting will be anything like what was shown there?

RAF

12-22-2006, 08:05 AM

No because Gao Dao Sheng is showing applications.

The flavor would look more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG3533Rktzg&NR

However, as Richard (****ie) Pitts once told me, his fights never lasted more 2 or 3minutes.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 08:29 AM

The flavor would look more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG3533Rktzg&NR
Those techniques don't seem to be that much different than the "no power punches" that the guy who fought Kimbo was using... the ones that everyone is saying were completely ineffective.

Ben Gash

12-22-2006, 08:53 AM

Does anyone really think that fighting will be anything like what was shown there?

Only you would rag on the fighting skills of a 90 year old man :D

RAF

12-22-2006, 09:41 AM

Whatever:)

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 10:51 AM

Only you would rag on the fighting skills of a 90 year old man :D
Not ragging on his skills, but, rather, the bs techniques that are supposed to be applicable to fighting.

Royal Dragon

12-22-2006, 11:45 AM

How is gaining position on an opponent, and then breaking thier knee (as seen in the old man clip) *Not* applicable to fighting?

Akronviper

12-22-2006, 12:10 PM

The tapes are meant to make a profit, but more importantly to show people many differnt types of martial arts. Are GD masters of all of them? No. Allen is more about Quanity than Quality in this respect. They may very well get much of their material from tapes and demo's. Some credit should be given to them for gathering their extensive library, but any one who would learn from tapes or belive that GD are masters at every thing show is a fool. They should be used a tool to familiarise your self with a system and nothing more.

There has been no GD students on the forums to really say what the school ciriculum actully is, I would assume that most is
Kwan Ying Do from Ong. Allen had met Chang, but I dont belive that Allen ever was taught any thing by him (lets hope not....)

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:14 PM

How is gaining position on an opponent, and then breaking thier knee (as seen in the old man clip) *Not* applicable to fighting?

You're not going to be able to get to that position unless someone lets you or is an 8 year-old girl.

LOL at just being able to hold someone's arm like that and kick at them and supposedly "break" their knee.

SifuAbel

12-22-2006, 12:25 PM

Knifey's knees are made from a space age polymer formula designed to go in all directions and spring back from any impact with reciprical force. Also he has implanted a gyro chip that provides an electromagnetic gravity field so he cannot be moved.

Also, due to his time in area 51 all of his upper body joints were replaced with cyborg strength hydro servos that are only movable through brain wave signals. But with age, unfortunately, his brain has shriveled a bit and they don't work like the used to.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:28 PM

I explained this before. Chinese martial arts round the shoulders, sink the chest, keep the back straight, and tuck the tail bone. Green dragon perfromers do the exact opposite, which is totally wrong for ANY athletic endeavore, let alone Chinese martial arts.

Instead of rounding the shoulders, they pull them back as much as they can. Instead of sinking the chest, they puff it out (Do you guys even know what sinking the chest is?) Instead of keeping the back stright, they arch it back, instead of tucking the tail bone, they stick the butt out.

All of thier basic FUNDEMENTAL body structure is 180 degrees wrong for Chinese martial arts. Even MMA guys get it right, and even the ones that don't get it right are at least neutral. Green dragon guys not only fail to hold the propper structure, but they go one step worse than most and actually exagerate the improper strucure in the wrong direction.

Okay, well that position as you put it just happens to enhance what bust the female performers are showing, as well as make their butts look bigger.

I thought that was the point of the tapes. You aren't supposed to take them seriously, are you?

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:39 PM

Knifey's knees are made from a space age polymer formula designed to go in all directions and spring back from any impact with reciprical force. Also he has implanted a gyro chip that provides an electromagnetic gravity field so he cannot be moved. .
It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with BS theoretical pretend fighting techniques. If that stuff worked the way that was shown on the video, in this age of omnipresent fighting clips all over the internet, don't you think there would quite a few examples of that kind of stuff being used for real?

Royal Dragon

12-22-2006, 12:47 PM

Ok Knifie, lets see you take a kick to the side of the knee and be un injured.

SifuAbel

12-22-2006, 12:48 PM

Royal Dragon

12-22-2006, 12:50 PM

It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with BS theoretical pretend fighting techniques. If that stuff worked the way that was shown on the video, in this age of omnipresent fighting clips all over the internet, don't you think there would quite a few examples of that kind of stuff being used for real?

Are knee shots legal in UFC? Wow, I did't know that!! I thought there was no video of knee breakes, because no one did them, because they were against the rules!

Yah learn something new every day around here!! :p

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 12:54 PM

Knifefighter you think those techniques on those videos are fake? Some chick beating up on a guy?

Bottomline is when I bought a couple of those, I put them in the VCR. It was obvious in about 10 minutes that this is the KF equivalent of softcore porn. Girls beating up on guys, sticking their chests out and butts out while doing the forms, breaking slabs of bricks.

Now if they were only wearing bikinis ...

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 12:57 PM

Ok Knifie, lets see you take a kick to the side of the knee and be un injured.
Bwhahahahaahaha!!!! I've been fighting in events that allow kicks to the side of the knees for years. So far, I have yet to see someone's knee blown out from that kick.

Of course, the pretend fighters think that real fighting is like that clip where the opponent just stands there with his knee locked out while one throws the kick.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:01 PM

Bwhahahahaahaha!!!! I've been fighting in events that allow kicks to the side of the knees for years. So far, I have yet to see someone's knee blown out from that kick.

Of course, the pretend fighters think that real fighting is like that clip where the opponent just stands there with his knee locked out while one throws the kick.

There's a TKO with Dan Severn where he couldn't continue the match from just such a kick in a UFC match. Can't remember who kicked him, though.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 01:05 PM

There's a TKO with Dan Severn where he couldn't continue the match from just such a kick in a UFC match. Can't remember who kicked him, though.
Can you get your knee blown out with a kick? Absolutely.

Is it the "deadly" techique that most pretend fighters think it is? Absolutely not.

However, if one does manage to end the fight with a kick to the knee, it's not going to be while holding the opponent's arm like what was shown in that video.

Akronviper

12-22-2006, 01:09 PM

Just recently Mirco Crocop TKO'ed someone with a knee kick.

Royal Dragon

12-22-2006, 01:13 PM

Is it the "deadly" techique that most pretend fighters think it is? Absolutely not.

Reply]
Ur a total Knob, no one said it's the super deadly technique you moron!! It's one of many techniques that one can use.

Lord, if everyone depended on only one technique, martial arts (MMA included) would be all about trying to do nothing but arm bar eachother.

Could you see a UFC fight where they didn't bother to punch, or kick, or do anything but Arbars, becasue Armbars were cncidred the best all encompasing super duper dealy technique!! Wouldn't that be funny?

Yet Knife fighter expects us to think and to fight only with knee breaks (specifically the one shown in the clip)because he likes to fantasize that we only use things we consider ubber deadly and secret!

Nope, Kung Fu don't use footwork, or set ups, or punchs, or Kicks, or throws, nope we only use useless knee breaks!!

and occasionally we poke people in the eye..........

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:14 PM

Can you get your knee blown out with a kick? Absolutely.

Is it the "deadly" techique that most pretend fighters think it is? Absolutely not.

However, if one does manage to end the fight with a kick to the knee, it's not going to be while holding the opponent's arm like what was shown in that video.

Well it's just interesting that you call it a pretend fighters deadly technique when it's one of the most commonly used non-hand sport fighting techniques, at least from UFC and kickboxing.

Anyway, I'll be the first to admit that most 'pretend' as you call them fighters probably don't get any time in a stress tested environment, but I don't think you can judge if it works or not from the lack of use in a sport environment. (Especially since this particular one is used in a sport environment all the time).

But I will agree with your overall point, which is I think, that a lot of KF fighters don't stress their stuff so don't know if it will work and it probably won't for them.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 01:22 PM

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 01:30 PM

I'll make it simple and go back to my original statement.

Real fighting does not happen the way that was shown on that video. Many of those techniques were unrealistic in the way they were shown.

Pretend fighters will not understand what I am talking about.

I don't really like the cross and inside techniques there because they seem to leave the user pretty open, but those seem to be pretty standard techniques.

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 04:49 PM

Sorry for butting into this, but:
yes, they are legitimate sources of CMA, but all I or most people have ever seen of Green Dragon's forms is their videos, and unless they were deliberately done 'wrong' so that people couldn't 'only' learn the form from the video, these forms
are pretty terrible in the fact that they are mostly well known forms that look barely executed to standard.

I've judged tournaments for many years, etc, etc, and never have I seen these forms done so stiffly, so out of character with the styles that the came from.
That's my personal opinion.

I've shown the videos to people from those styles, and until I showed them the title of the form on the video, they could not figure out what form they were seeing.
For example, the Ba Ji Quan form, shows nothing of the flavor of any Ba Ji I have done or others I have seen do, all the GD tapes I have seen look like
Chinese forms done like Karate forms, with all the flavor, the body mechanics of karate.

Maybe Green Dragon school has fantastic stuff that they teach their students, the only thing I am saying is that their videos just don't show it and make poor ambassadors for the school.

Don't be sorry, that was well said. What I am looking for is a video source showing the 'right' way to do a specific form that GD also has on video, so that I can see the differences in the movement, characteristics, etc.

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 04:52 PM

Have you posted a clip yet?

Nope. Just form work and occasional sparring.

anyone have Kimbo's phone number?:D

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 05:16 PM

I explained this before. Chinese martial arts round the shoulders, sink the chest, keep the back straight, and tuck the tail bone. Green dragon perfromers do the exact opposite, which is totally wrong for ANY athletic endeavore, let alone Chinese martial arts.

Face it, Green Dragon is just not *All That*

Well, I strongly disagree with you on this point. GD aside, proper ergonomics for lifting include arching the back slightly, which will shift your posture such that your shoulders will be pulled back (slightly), and your butt will 'stick out' (slightly). Just think of deadlifts, for example: no rounding of the upper back, slight arch in the lower lumbar. Move a heavy load with your tailbone tucked and you'll injure your lower back.

Don't take my word for this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/back_pain/preventionback_posture.shtml

Avoid rounding the shoulders
Don't hunch your back
etc...

someone else wanna chime in on this?

Yao Sing

12-22-2006, 05:19 PM

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 05:28 PM

Guess I misunderstood. Thought you wanted feedback but didn't remember seeing a video clip from you.

So you're wanting a comparison of GD forms from the video with forms from the styles they represent? What forms are on the video?

Your not looking to fight Kimbo are you? :confused:

No, you didn't misunderstand. We used to fractice formwork and get critiques on our perfomance, and also do a little sparring and get critiques and advice on our use (or misuse) or combat applications.

I would ALSO like to paruse some videos of other performances of GD forms to compare.

As for Kimbo...If it's not against the rules, I'll take out his knee, and send the prize money to Knifefighter so that he can buy some Green Dragon Tapes!:D

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 06:12 PM

Not if its not taught.
Hey that's a new one.

Haven't heard that one before.

Now the reason kung fu techniques aren't used for real is because they aren't being taught... Bwhqhahaahahahaha!!!!!

+1 for originality.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:16 PM

Well, I strongly disagree with you on this point. GD aside, proper ergonomics for lifting include arching the back slightly, which will shift your posture such that your shoulders will be pulled back (slightly), and your butt will 'stick out' (slightly). Just think of deadlifts, for example: no rounding of the upper back, slight arch in the lower lumbar. Move a heavy load with your tailbone tucked and you'll injure your lower back.

Don't take my word for this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/back_pain/preventionback_posture.shtml

Avoid rounding the shoulders
Don't hunch your back
etc...

someone else wanna chime in on this?

I can't believe we're arguing about this. Doing forms is not deadlifting.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:17 PM

Hey that's a new one.

Haven't heard that one before.

Now the reason kung fu techniques aren't used for real is because they aren't being taught... Bwhqhahaahahahaha!!!!!

+1 for originality.

He has a point, though. A lot of you see the apps in the dog style video or this mantis stuff and from your comments a lot of you, it sounds like you're seeing it for the first time.

Well, why is that? Because a lot of schools do their forms and when they spar they just do kickboxing. They don't know the apps for their forms.

Knifefighter

12-22-2006, 06:17 PM

GD aside, proper ergonomics for lifting include arching the back slightly, which will shift your posture such that your shoulders will be pulled back (slightly), and your butt will 'stick out' (slightly). Just think of deadlifts, for example: no rounding of the upper back, slight arch in the lower lumbar. Move a heavy load with your tailbone tucked and you'll injure your lower back.
someone else wanna chime in on this?
Head up, slight extension in the spine, shoulders over the hips, knees bent- great for lifting and grappling.

That would be great posture if yours was primarily a grappling style.

However, when striking is concerned, it is the opposite- chin down, shoulders up and forward, spine in forward flexion, knees less bent.

This is one of the things that makes MMA so challenging, you've got several opposing biomechanical dynamics to work with.

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 06:34 PM

Head up, slight extension in the spine, shoulders over the hips, knees bent- great for lifting and grappling.

That would be great posture if yours was primarily a grappling style.

However, when striking is concerned, it is the opposite- chin down, shoulders up and forward, spine in forward flexion, knees less bent.

This is one of the things that makes MMA so challenging, you've got several opposing biomechanical dynamics to work with.

Ask somebody to explain to you hakka's sink float spit whatever. I don't do hakka but somebody on here must.

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 09:00 PM

Doing forms is not deadlifting.

Just the kind of insight that I expect from the internet.
:rolleyes:

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 09:20 PM

Just the kind of insight that I expect from the internet.
:rolleyes:

I dunno what to say Iron Weasel. If you want to stuck out your butt there's one school where they practice it.

They call their school 'vertical force' or something, so it sounds right up your alley.

http://www.guensystem.com/vertical_gallery.html

IronWeasel

12-22-2006, 09:57 PM

I dunno what to say Iron Weasel. If you want to stuck out your butt there's one school where they practice it.

They call their school 'vertical force' or something, so it sounds right up your alley.

http://www.guensystem.com/vertical_gallery.html

Well...Martial Arts/****erotica...all in one. Did ya learn about this website in prison??

"Hold him still, si I can tuck his tailbone!" -- Lunghushan, Cell block B

lunghushan

12-22-2006, 11:31 PM

Well...Martial Arts/****erotica...all in one. Did ya learn about this website in prison??

"Hold him still, si I can tuck his tailbone!" -- Lunghushan, Cell block B

No, through heated discussion with Lonnie, the guy in black on page 4, I think, about their sticking their butts out.

You want someplace that AGREES with your premise, here it is. The ONLY place that I know of that AGREES with you.

Just thank the Internet. :)

TAO YIN

12-23-2006, 12:47 AM

Lunghushan,

I am confused...

Knifefighter, in practical terms, just explained what hakka players do. Why does he need another explanation?

lunghushan

12-23-2006, 12:58 AM

Lunghushan,

I am confused...

Knifefighter, in practical terms, just explained what hakka players do. Why does he need another explanation?

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounded like he was saying MMA players do this and not KF.

Not being Hakka I don't think I'm the best person to explain anything Hakka to him.

Royal Dragon

12-23-2006, 01:03 AM

The structure Knifie described is universal, to any discapline. Even in gymnastics. They call it the Hollow position.

Gymnasts actually use the Green dragon structure too, when they do thier artistic poses, but when it's gets time to get down to business to do thier stunts, the Hollow postition is the name of the game, and that is rounded shoulders, sunk chest stright back, and tucked tail bone.

TAO YIN

12-23-2006, 05:15 AM

:confused:

I realize I showed up here late, but it seems the talk is about structure. It's beyond impractical to use the same structure in punching that you do in grappling, and vice versa. If you punch someone with your butt stuck out, your head stuck up, your back as straight as a string, and your knees quite bent, there will not be much power in your punch.

If you try to wrestle someone to the ground, especially someone who's putting pressure on you, with your butt tucked in, your chin down, your back hunched, and your knees slight bent, well...Good luck on figuring out how to get out of that double leg take down. Better yet, enjoy that knee before the throw.

As for the tun tou fou chum of the hakka players, its just another way of talking about proper natural body mechanics. Any fighter should want to get the best natural body mechanics they can when in combat, no matter the movement. You can hit a person any way you want to. It's possible to stand on one leg and give a powerful hit. It's possible to jump up in the air and grapple on the way down. I would rather not complicate things to those extremes though, but that is just me. Heell, I dunno...

IronFist

12-25-2006, 08:10 PM

This thread delivers.

Dark Knight

12-28-2006, 07:42 AM

"Are knee shots legal in UFC? Wow, I did't know that!! I thought there was no video of knee breakes, because no one did them, because they were against the rules!"

A knee kick is not an end all that many people think. Leg kicks are allowed in UFC, Mo Smith made Tank Abbot quit at one from leg kicks, but he kicks at 80mph.

kicks to the side and back of the knee are common.

I own many GD tapes, I like Chinese MA's, I would study with them if I was near them because I do like what they do, but the techniques will not work as they are shown.

Knife Fighter is right.

Yao Sing

12-28-2006, 08:11 AM

A knee kick is not an end all that many people think.

I see this kind of response quite often on here and I really don't see it as appropriate. Every time some, usually Knifefighter, makes a claim something is useless the comment like 'it's not a fight ender' usually pops up.

The thing is fights consist of a lot more than 'fight ender' and I doubt anyone is claiming a lot of these moves are the 'end all' of fighting.

Nobody expects a knee kick to end a fight but it certainly can (possible, not a guarantee) inflict damage and set up more damaging moves.

I think the knee kick is more in line with use against an untrained, unconditioned fighter that's not prepared to deal with leg attacks.

A lot of these moves have their place in a fight and it helps if you have enough of an arsenal to draw for depending on the situation. Fight ending moves usually need a set up or diversion to be successful.

They all work in conjunction and taking a move on it's own and relying on that to save your butt is not a safe strategy.

Dark Knight

12-28-2006, 09:05 AM

Nobody expects a knee kick to end a fight but it certainly can (possible, not a guarantee) inflict damage and set up more damaging moves.

I have used a knee strike to set up other attacks. I agree it has a lot of value.

But there are a ton of TMA people who never fought who want to belive they can beat any MMA fighter with a quick kick to the knee because MMA is a sport and they study a true combat style.

I also hear alot how many of these people (and they are on this forum) say that if eye strikes were allowed everything would change or if groin strikes were allowed.

(In the early UFC's groin strikes were alowed)

You say no one expects a knee kick to end a fight, but so many do.

IronFist

12-28-2006, 12:16 PM

But there are a ton of TMA people who never fought who want to belive they can beat any MMA fighter with a quick kick to the knee because MMA is a sport and they study a true combat style.

I used to be like that. Then I got schooled by a noob MMA fighter and I changed my opinion very quickly.

Lohan Fury

01-02-2007, 01:23 PM

I sincerely doubt it. That it was done correctly, that is, if in fact it was done at all, daily, at maximum tension, for the period of time it would require to build from 9 reps per exercise to 47.

Just about impossible to get to that number, correctly done, without inducing some of the collateral internal effects.

:D

You can doubt all you want there, buddy. I don't need someone to come onto a forum and tell me what I have and have not done. It appears to me that you're feeling threatened as someone has stepped up having performed this exercise and has actual first hand experience of it.

Anyone with minor qigong experience will notice how unbalanced this exercise will make you. Judging by your comments towards me iron tiger, you know this as well. John Allen is a prime example of this- How many people have watched one of his videos and thought he could at any moment defecate a brick? This is not an attack on his authenticity or skill nor anything other than a mere observation of his demeanor.

All in all there are much better tension sets out there imho. Sets that focus on yin energy as well as the yang; sets that focus on use of the legs in more than just stances; sets which don't leave you feeling like you're on steroids; sets which focus on BOTH sides of the body equally and don't require modification to that effect.

You can doubt as much as you want, my friend. I'm not here to prove myself to you. I'm not saying John Allen is a phony, nor do I care. I do have doubts as to the truths of some claims made by Green Dragon, but that's only because I have in fact trained s.w. as I said and I know just how taxing such an exercise can be.

Iron Tiger's comments only further reinforce the point I was making. If it's so unbelievable that an average joe such as myself could reach 47 reps, then what makes Green Dragon so special they can easily double that amount as if it was a walk in the park? ESPECIALLY if I am doing it wrong as Iron Tiger claims and it still took me over 2 HOURS to complete 47 reps!!!???

Believe what you want to. I merely posted to give my $0.02 on the matter. Take it for what it's worth...

iron tiger

01-02-2007, 09:54 PM

You can doubt as much as you want, my friend

And I will; easy to do based on your info (as well as lack thereof). But it's nice to have your permission to do so, thanks.

Hope everyone else had a nice & productive holiday, too. Interesting reading. Not much new, but interesting nonetheless.

And btw, regarding one post: Allen did receive some instruction from Chang, as well as meet him.

Regarding one other: I've been in LOTS of high-profile CMA etc schools, and there are a TON of them who aren't as 'in shape' or well-conditioned as they seem to believe. So it's no surprise that so many students out there have some of the 'opinions' they do about...various things.

About the GD 'curriculum': covered fairly extensively not only in the Inside Kung Fu cover story some years back (Dave Cater certainly endorses and supports what they do, fwiw), but I've also seen it written about in some depth on other sites now & then (although it was a friend who steered me to those; don't spend a lot of time online; and have finally reached my frustration maxpoint in terms of re-logging in every time I try to post something here, wow).

In closing, there's clearly a whole lot of stuff just simply not being taught, or taught properly when it is, out there; particularly, imho, in terms of what can be done in terms of building up and using the chi and how some of the forms training will do that.

Too, too bad. But it doesn't mean that no one is learning it.

Oh, glad you liked the pic; thought it might give you some comfort. And about all those MMA-ers I've "beat up": what I will say is, at least I'm sure I don't harbor any false sense of security about what I can do.

I'd go into the forms, chi & various mechanics (eg Green Dragon's stance is absolutely correct for the way they fight, especially in terms of drawing power from the legs while maneuvering) more in-depth but you guys obviously aren't at all interested in 'content' except for more ways to apply your excellent 'selective thinking' skills. So be it. Gotta follow your bliss, I suppose.

Take care, and get those reps in, you who know what I mean.

:D

"Ignorance is bliss..."

JDK

01-03-2007, 03:43 AM

Bulls**t. Allen & Chicoine left Ong's program of their own accord.

Bulls**t on top of the bulls**t.

Wow, do any of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about with regard to Green Dragon, their material, Allen & Chicoine & their true relationships to Ong & Chang, or is it all just smoke, hot air, and b.s.? Or as in your case, plain lying.

Or can you provide details on how you were able to "trace" that--or any other--set to a Femon--not "Freeman"--Ong originally out of Anywhere?

Didn't think so.

Incorrect. One of the multitude of reasons Allen left Ong's school. Closer to the mark on the 'ET Al' portion of your post, however (Wong, Kao T-S).

Gee, I wonder why they left? ;)

Ridiculous. Had to laugh when you gave yourself away so early on with the 'low ranking' qualifier.

I'm curious. Just how s-l-o-o-o-o-w-l-y did he explain his reluctance to perform, and why did you question his claim of having studied at GD rather than taking him so much more seriously than you did your own ignorance at what may actually transpire there in the way of teaching?

Now this is interesting. You do know, though, don't you, that the domain you provided was originally registered way back in 1997, right? Whereas it's 2006 now. When did you receive this "new" catalogue?

I highly doubt it. I used to train there, though (the Home School after a probation period through the Kent Club). And I know several other people who did and/or still do. But what makes you think one of their "reps" would reply in that way on that topic?

See, there's the key to at least 99.9% of the b.s. most of you guys are spewing about the school, its head instructor, the material they provide, and so forth--

"watched"

It's always "watched," or "read about" or "heard."

Never: dedicatedly worked & strained & sweated my little tail off each and every day in learning and perfecting some samples of their fighting sets and strength & power-building material.

Most laughable: IronFist's assertion that he's posted "in depth" posts about the Stone Warrior set elsewhere on this, or any other, board or forum.

IronFist doesn't know jacksh**t about training on the Stone Warrior strength & power set. IronFist---according to his very own words on the subject---never even got to Square 1 on any sort of meaningful experience, let alone 'in depth' know-how or knowledge---with or about the authentic Stone Warrior set or the innumerable benefits it has to offer.

He almost exclusively "watched" or "read" or "heard" about it. Then based part of his criticism of it on some almost entirely irrelevant aspect of Americanized dynamic tension-type exercise.

And yet, his attitude is representative of the typical martial arts student---and many, many instructors---out there.

Wow.

Like Sifu Allen says, Green Dragon keeps about 1 out of every 100 who start in on what they offer in the way they offer it. You don't have to read many posts on very many MA discussion boards to figure out some part of why this holds true now, just as it did in the days of old.

If I may....let me clear up a few misconceptions.

Chicione & Allen were told to leave by Master Ong....period.

To this day if you ask Chicione he will be the first to say, that s much as a bad-ass as he was and still is....Master Ong threw him around on a weekly basis..and he was no match for Master Ong's fighting prowess.

Anyone on this thread with knowledge of the Old Ways...know that one of the reasons training took so long in the Old Days is that a students character was watched and studied as closely by the Master as the students skill and ability.

Even today...many Masters will not reveal certain things to students until they have had a long term association and friendship with them. Why? Because Dim Mak and other dangerous internal practices are a disaster if passed on to the wrong person{s) The Old Masters knew this..so they chose their senior students very carefully.
This was the case with Master Ong...and many others today who sill teach by the same principles. Unfortunetley with the combination of the Internet and many more teachers coming to America since the 1960's and financial agenda's and a desire to hold onto students...training is often vastly "speeded up" so as to keep the student happy.

Master Ong's style was not perfect...nor was it pure. It is indeed a mixture of several teachers training he had over his lifetime.
Sometimes great Masters/ Fighters are not great teachers. This , in my opinion is the case with Kwan-Yin-Do.

If you want to see a true representation of the Style and its many strengths,
attend a demonstration by Stephen Ong,.. Feemon's son. He was awesome at age 20...I can only imagine his capabilities now. He is one of the nicest guys you ever want to meet on the street. ( My wife and he attended High School together)

But when it comes time for class...he is all business. Strict, Traditional and fair.
He will not however "speed up " training nor compromise his standards.
As a result....the School has few students left...which is OK, it is a loss to the many students who could be helped by Stephen's Knowledge and teaching ability...Stephen has gone on with his life and is very successsful. Kwan-Yin-Do is not a business to him...he would rather take its training secrets to his grave, rather than dishonor his father's memory or those of the Masters who have gone on before.

In a perfect world...Chicione, Allen, **** Pitts ( deceased), Wayne Shultz, Ed & Don Niam,Dave Shenk , Al Wasil, Bob Kruger and others should have been humble enough to allow Master Ong's son to continue Leading the School after his fathers untimely death.

But...everyone went their seperate ways...with varying degree's of success.

Many owe alot of their early training and foundation in the Arts to Master Ong. and several keep his pictures up on the walls of their Training Halls. He treated them like sons..and would give them the shirt off his back.

Bottem line...take what you can from Allen's Green Dragon tapes and seek out true masters with a true traceable Linage.

Student Forever

kal

01-03-2007, 04:38 AM

JDK

01-03-2007, 05:00 AM

Why were Chicoine and Allen told to leave?

I also noticed that these two --especially Chicoine -- don't seem to mention Feemon Ong by name in their writings.

Chicoine only seems to refer to Chang Tung Sheng.

Unacceptable behavour, bad additudes...and a growing rebellous attitude towards Master Ong. Also they believed they had learned all they could from Ong...and wantd to increase their knowledge.....I cant blame them for that.

Chicoine met up with Master Chang and HE became his new Master.
Chang ( undefeated Free-Style No Holds Barred Fighter in China for almost 50 years) added so much knowledge to Chicoine in Shuai Chiao and other Styles..that Chicoine totally devoted himself to Chang.
Here is an article on Master Chang http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/tung-sheng-chang%20.htm

AND some Pictures of him http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=GRAND+MASTER+TUNG+SHENG+CH%27ANG+&btnG=Search+Images

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9234/changcz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Akronviper

01-03-2007, 08:35 AM

My understanding by many people at the school at the time of the breakup is they left due to other reasons, but there is allways two sides of the story and will always be it just depends on what side your on.

I know Allen had met Chang on occasions but his training from him is very little if not none. If you look at the GD Xing yi tapes you would at least hope his training was that.

Chicoine and Allen left prior to the death of Ong and I dont belive Pitts ever really associated his school with Ongs.

Knifefighter

01-03-2007, 11:02 AM

]Even today...many Masters will not reveal certain things to students until they have had a long term association and friendship with them. Why? Because Dim Mak and other dangerous internal practices are a disaster if passed on to the wrong person{s)
I'm amazed that in this day and age, people still believe this bulls$hit.

Sure is a great way for charlatans to make money off of gulluible suckers, though.

unkokusai

01-03-2007, 11:42 AM

I used to be like that. Then I got schooled by a noob MMA fighter and I changed my opinion very quickly.

Well, that's pretty honest.

JDK

01-03-2007, 01:00 PM

I'm amazed that in this day and age, people still believe this bulls$hit.

Sure is a great way for charlatans to make money off of gulluible suckers, though.

Really ?????

Ok, I'll set aside the Legendary death touch for now( even though it IS a viable study of the dark side of Martial Arts)...but if you know anything about QiGong Training and how harmful it can be to practice incorrectly, you might change your opinion on it being bull****.

When you get deep into Meditation and the worship of some of these ancient gods ( demon spirits really) you are asking for trouble.

Mosy of these Old Training Methods have already been taken to the Grave by deceased Monks....plus very few ( if any) student today is willing to practice diligent everyday for 10 years on one specific technique...Master Chang was willing however...and he was able to wrap his leg around a smal tree and pull it from the ground roots and all! :eek:

His reasoning ? Here is his own words Ten Years is going to pass if you Practice this everyday or not....so why not have a devastating Technique at the end of ten years.

Simple ???? You bet. Hard to do.....absolutely.

THAT is why there are so few Chang Dung Shengs in Martial Arts History.

Man is made of 3 parts..Body, Mind and Spirit.
Our Medicine is a little over 200 years old....Chinese Medicine goes back 5000 years.

Do some research my friend...and then explain to me how Sifu John Painter of Texas is able to extinquish a candle, on the other side of a wall using Chi Kung.

JD

unkokusai

01-03-2007, 02:17 PM

............oh brother............................:rolleyes:

MonkeyKingUSA

01-03-2007, 02:23 PM

In a perfect world...Chicione, Allen, **** Pitts ( deceased), Wayne Shultz, Ed & Don Niam,Dave Shenk , Al Wasil, Bob Kruger and others should have been humble enough to allow Master Ong's son to continue Leading the School after his fathers untimely death.

I wanted to clear things up a bit on the Feeman Ong issue stated above.

Richard Pitts Jr. was a student of Gene Chicoine's when Gene Chicoine was with Feeman Ong. Richard was not a direct student of Feeman Ong. Richard went on to start his own style which he called Kuer Wong (sp?). He self-published a book about this style in the mid to late 80's.

Wayne Schultz began training in Wing Chun after the death of Feeman Ong. That is what he teaches (among other things) today.

Neither have taken away anything from Stephen Ong.

iron tiger

01-03-2007, 02:37 PM

I know Allen had met Chang on occasions but his training from him is very little if not none

From what I understand, in relation to the sum total of Allen's training, what he actually learned from Chang constitutes a small percentage. But Chang did correct a lot of improper teaching Allen had received from other Chinese masters/teachers; including some of the material from Ong.

If you look at the GD Xing yi tapes you would at least hope his training was that

Those tapes I've not seen. But I do have an internal power exercise from Hsing I by way of Green Dragon, and it's one of the most potent things, from an internal power building perspective, I've ever tried, especially in terms of its utter simplicity.

Chicoine and Allen left prior to the death of Ong

According to everything I've heard, read, and know, that is true. Covered pretty extensively by Allen himself in various forums.

Ong was stingy with his knowledge--to say the least. Not to take anything away from his fighting skills, which were extraordinary (as Allen et al would be the first to tell you); and yet paled in comparison to what Grandmaster Chang was capable of.

kal

01-03-2007, 02:53 PM

Here is his own words Ten Years is going to pass if you Practice this everyday or not....so why not have a devastating Technique at the end of ten years.

That's brilliant! probably one of the best sayings I've heard.

kal

01-03-2007, 03:00 PM

According to everything I've heard, read, and know, that is true. Covered pretty extensively by Allen himself in various forums.

Ong was stingy with his knowledge--to say the least. Not to take anything away from his fighting skills, which were extraordinary (as Allen et al would be the first to tell you); and yet paled in comparison to what Grandmaster Chang was capable of.

On one of the Green Dragon tapes which is a Q&A session, Allen freely admits that he left due to disputes with Ong and jokingly refers to himself as a maverick! He did make clear later that he had very good reasons for leaving.

He also spoke about how Ong would compare with the top-profile CMA people in the USA at the time of the tape (late 80s). He talks about a video called "Living Legends of Kung Fu" which featured some well-known masters, but who would not even be in Ong's league. He said that Ong would destroy all of them within 5 minutes all at the same time.

The "Living Legends" tape in question features Adam Hsu, Brendan Lai, Chan Pui and Doc Fai Wong! Make of that what you will!

kal

01-03-2007, 03:54 PM

Found this on another forum (3rd post from bottom)

http://www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=8&Topic=2613

Very serious about Bible study and Christianity, too. It is not pushed on students, but available after training and really comprises the belief system of the core group.

I always wondered what this "core group" was that John Allen used to talk about. (Green Dragon had a hierarchy with himself the top, disciples next, core group next and then everyone else at the bottom.) Not sure I like this Bible study business.

On another topic, what happened to Gene Chicoine's links with Green Dragon? Did they part ways?

MonkeyKingUSA

01-03-2007, 04:08 PM

Was anyone else around when Gene Chicoine's kwoon was a church building and the school was called Hop Sing? That was before the Chicoine/Ong breakup.

RAF

01-03-2007, 04:40 PM

Chicoine and Allen wrote a fairly ****ing letter in Inside Kungfu in the 1980s stating the complete opposite of their views on Femon Ong's martial arts skills.

They repudiated everything they learned, stating that it was inferior and taught incomplete. The shuai jiao master had to recorrected everything they learned from scratch.

I saw Richard Pitts before he went to prison for the last time---FWIW, he didn't have many pleasant things to say about Chicoine and would even comment on Allen. Richard also told me that he had trained directly under Femon for a short time because of what happened between him an Chicoine.

Adam Hsu was partially responsible for getting Gene Chicoine to Taiwan.

Mas Judt

01-03-2007, 04:40 PM

When did Chicoine first open his p0rn shop? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ving Sing

01-03-2007, 05:07 PM

This has to be the best topic on this forum....:D Very entertaining. I will have to check back and see if you guys start talking about teleporting from one place to another, or even levitating:eek:

Yao Sing

01-03-2007, 05:11 PM

No need to check back, we'll contact you telepathically when that discussion starts. :D

Akronviper

01-03-2007, 05:35 PM

Adam Hsu was partially responsible for getting Gene Chicoine to Taiwan.

If you dont mind me asking who is Adam Hsu, I know I have heard the name before but I dont know much about him.

RAF

01-03-2007, 05:40 PM

FWIW, Richard Pitts, at the time I mentioned in the previous post, was extremely respectful of Femon Ong and said nothing bad about him.

RAF

01-03-2007, 05:42 PM

Adam Hsu:

http://www.adamhsu.com/

MonkeyKingUSA

01-03-2007, 05:50 PM

RAF wrote:
I saw Richard Pitts before he went to prison for the last time---FWIW, he didn't have many pleasant things to say about Chicoine and would even comment on Allen. Richard also told me that he had trained directly under Femon for a short time because of what happened between him an Chicoine.

RAF,
Thanks for the added info. Richard had never mentioned his direct training with Feemon to me. As far as Chicoine, Richard told me that Chicoine had given him an herbal formula that had almost killed him.
Something kind of ironic, the deputy sheriff that transported Richard to prison the last time was a past Hop Sing student decades ago (and my past brother-in-law). Not trying to start a conspiracy theory, I just thought that it was ironic.

BTW, anyone else ever hear the rumor of Ong's top students trying to resurrect his dead body with acupuncture and herbs? Akron has some INTERESTING stories/rumors!

Ving Sing,
Everyone knows that TRUE TCMA practitioners only levitate in months starting with J.

RAF,
It was good to see you again at Tony's last tourney!

IronWeasel

01-03-2007, 08:18 PM

Ong, Pitts, Chicoine...

I've always heard that they were awesome fighters, so SOMETHING about the training in the Akron area must be working!

As for blowing out candles thru walls...well...call myth busters. Let Knife Fighter cup his hands around the flame just to be sure there's nothing funny going on. When the flame goes out, the ultimate TCMA skeptic will finally throw away his autographed Royce Gracie bobble head doll.:)

JDK

01-03-2007, 08:24 PM

:rolleyes:
............oh brother............................:rolleyes:

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/drp.htm

Read, Study and learn smart ass.:cool:

JD

Knifefighter

01-03-2007, 08:34 PM

As for blowing out candles thru walls...well...call myth busters. Let Knife Fighter cup his hands around the flame just to be sure there's nothing funny going on. When the flame goes out, the ultimate TCMA skeptic will finally throw away his autographed Royce Gracie bobble head doll.:)
Considering the fact that my brother is a professional magician and can do all of what the mystical CMA "grandmasters" claim they can do, plus more, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

RAF

01-03-2007, 09:09 PM

RAF wrote:
I saw Richard Pitts before he went to prison for the last time---FWIW, he didn't have many pleasant things to say about Chicoine and would even comment on Allen. Richard also told me that he had trained directly under Femon for a short time because of what happened between him an Chicoine.

RAF,
Thanks for the added info. Richard had never mentioned his direct training with Feemon to me. As far as Chicoine, Richard told me that Chicoine had given him an herbal formula that had almost killed him.Something kind of ironic, the deputy sheriff that transported Richard to prison the last time was a past Hop Sing student decades ago (and my past brother-in-law). Not trying to start a conspiracy theory, I just thought that it was ironic.

BTW, anyone else ever hear the rumor of Ong's top students trying to resurrect his dead body with acupuncture and herbs? Akron has some INTERESTING stories/rumors!

Ving Sing,
Everyone knows that TRUE TCMA practitioners only levitate in months starting with J.

RAF,
It was good to see you again at Tony's last tourney!

Richard, yes that is why Richard Pitts told me he got to train under Femon---the result of the poisoning.

I know the secretary who worked at the coroner's office at that time---indeed they did try to use herbs to resurrect Femon Ong but they of course were stopped from doing it.

Hope to see you next year too!:)

JDK

01-04-2007, 03:35 AM

Was anyone else around when Gene Chicoine's kwoon was a church building and the school was called Hop Sing? That was before the Chicoine/Ong breakup.

Yep...it was beind the Dairy Queen in Mogadore.. a real rural small town just outside of Akron.

It was there during the 1970.s..he began to send his students to Bars to "test" their fighitng skills on untrained drunks.

Master Ong told him to stop....this is one of the controversies that began to brew betwen them.

I remember Chicione's reputation as a bad-ass began to really grow then.
Did I mention he was kicked off the Police Department for excessive force
( among other things)? And remember,,,,,this was the 1970's when excessive Force was not common among Police.

F.Y.I Interestingly enough, Master Ong was working as a Balif for the Akron Court System at the time...he was asked to teach the other Balifs and Police Officers how he was able to so easily remove criminals from the Courtroom who had become too violent or were cursing at the Judge,...he was happy to spend his own time doing so.

Later ...Chicoine was asked to teach prisoner control technigues to the Tiawan Police Force
Which I believe he is still involved with.

JD

JDK

01-04-2007, 03:52 AM

That's brilliant! probably one of the best sayings I've heard.

I thought so too Knifefighter.
But that is the simple direct teaching and thinking that Master Chang had.

You can plenty about Chang's life...and how he remained robust and healthy right up to his death.

Chicione, Ong, Allen and the rest KNEW Chang had spent his life traveling , absorbing the best techiques from hundreds of Styles..and that in no-hold-barred-matches in China ( even more brutal and with no rules that today's UFC) Chang had never been beaten.

At age 65....the above mentioned men feared him...and rightfully so.:)

He was one in a million....

JD

JDK

01-04-2007, 04:05 AM

Considering the fact that my brother is a professional magician and can do all of what the mystical CMA "grandmasters" claim they can do, plus more, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Please..I invite you NOT to takem my word for it...study yourself to get to the facts.

Again...it is one's choice to research, study and learn..or listen to rumors, gossip and inuendos.
I know there are plenty of thieves out there who just want to "mistify" the study of Chi Kung, and seperate us from our money!!!!:D

I believe however...that Dr Painter is not one of them.

DR. JOHN PAINTER
Dr. John Painter began training in the Chinese arts of taijiquan, baguazhang, xingyiquan, acupressure, Chinese massotherapy, herbs, traditional weapons, and neigong in 1957 with Li, Long-dao from the Emei mountain region of Sichuan Province. Dr. Painter holds a Ph.D. in naturopathic medicine from Sussex College in England.
He has been teaching Chinese internal martial arts and qigong for over 30 years. He instructs baguazhang, xingyiquan, qigong and Daoist courses at the Gompa Center in Arlington, Texas. He has been a bodyguard for numerous film and television stars and has appeared in three full-length motion pictures as an actor. Dr. Painter has also been interviewed on national television and magazines like Vogue and National Star, promoting the internal arts. His specialty is baguazhang, a Chinese internal system.

As a captain in the American Rangers Martial Law Enforcement Institute, Dr. Painter instructs law enforcement officers throughout the United States in defensive tactics called PKC (TM) based on baguazhang and xingyiquan. Dr. Painter was elected to the Inside Kung Fu Hall of Fame and was called one of the most sought after Chinese martial arts seminar instructors in America by Black Belt magazine.

After the September 11 tragedy, Dr. Painter became heavily involved with developing special methods for the nation’s security law enforcement agencies and has been recommended to the FAA by the US Marshals service as a trainer for the US Air Marshals programs. Doctor Painter is also a member of the board of advisors for the American Society of Internal Arts.

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/welcome.html

JDK

01-04-2007, 04:17 AM

Richard, yes that is why Richard Pitts told me he got to train under Femon---the result of the poisoning.

I know the secretary who worked at the coroner's office at that time---indeed they did try to use herbs to resurrect Femon Ong but they of course were stopped from doing it.

Hope to see you next year too!:)

True.
Except the hebs and acupunture attempts started in Master Ongs Basement where he collapsed.

I cannot verify the poisen story...but I know Feemon had taught Chicone alot of herbal Medicine, many of the ingredients having to be bought from Taiwan or China at the time)...and as most informed internal Artists know...these formulas of herbs can be used for enhancement of health....or can make one sick.

**** Pitts School was on Brittian Road in Akron...and I got to read a copy of his paperback book called White Tiger ( I believe) ..many of the stances and training were directly from Kwan-ying-Do, and he even thanked Master Ong in the forward section of the Book if I remember correctly.

He too was a good fighter......unfortunately drugs became his downfall.

Sad.......

JD

Akronviper

01-04-2007, 09:59 AM

Something kind of ironic, the deputy sheriff that transported Richard to prison the last time was a past Hop Sing student decades ago (and my past brother-in-law). Not trying to start a conspiracy theory, I just thought that it was ironic.

Speaking of conspiracy theories there seems to a few about his predicament.

My family and freinds know of him through Hop Sing, Art of Desire, grew up with or were just freinds of him. I never met him myself but it seems that ever one in Akron has a D. Pitts story or two, he seems to be a local legend.

Yao Sing

01-04-2007, 11:06 AM

Don't keep us in the dark, tell a few of them. Why did he go to prison?

kal

01-04-2007, 11:21 AM

unkokusai

01-04-2007, 12:12 PM

:rolleyes:

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/drp.htm

Read, Study and learn smart ass.:cool:

JD

Get off the koolaide, *******! :rolleyes:

RAF

01-04-2007, 12:20 PM

Strange that Robert W. Smith doesn't really same to rate Chang Tung Sheng as highly as Choicoine and Allen do. In Smith's book Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods he doesn't seem to think all that much of shuai chiao. He writes how he believes it is inferior to judo and claims that he was consistently able to beat Chang's students using his judo. He does admit though that Chang, being a Muslim (which I didn't know), was extremely disciplined. He goes on to say that he was a good fighter, but that he does not regret passing up the opportunity to train under him in order to follow Cheng Man Ching. The impression Smith gives is of a competent teacher and fighter, but not anywhere near the same legendary image you get from other sources.

Oh please give me a break! Smith is okay but he barely penetrated the circle of military martial artists in Taiwan. Chang Tung Sheng was a member of the Dai Li, secret police as were a number of others. There job was to assisinate Japanese and Communist members. They were feared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_Li

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9763.html

Among the Chinese of Taiwan, CMC was better known for his painting and poetry than for his Taijiquan. He was Madam Chiang Kaishek, the President's wife's (Jiang Jieshi) teacher.