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Oh please give me a break! Smith is okay but he barely penetrated the circle of military martial artists in Taiwan. Chang Tung Sheng was a member of the Dai Li, secret police as were a number of others. There job was to assisinate Japanese and Communist members. They were feared.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_Li
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9763.html
Among the Chinese of Taiwan, CMC was better known for his painting and poetry than for his Taijiquan. He was Madam Chiang Kaishek, the President's wife's (Jiang Jieshi) teacher.
Absolutely!
LOL...Chang proved his ability and refused NO challenges ever.
Funny how many things people write and say about others when they are dead and not able to respond:cool:
Poetry is a noble gift...Smith should stick to it.
JD
Get off the koolaide, *******! :rolleyes:
No Koolaide....just able to seperate fact from fiction.
How's your research coming? Website postings proving your obvious skepticism?
Have you ever actually witnessed unusal abilities from Masters who have spent decades working on their Internal power...and are very reluctant to show it off ???? I have.... they have no problem with trusted senior Students and Disciples....but have no interest in amusing the Crowds with Razor Sharp Spears unable to pierce their apples Apple as a Concrete Block is broken over their back by a Sledge Hammer.
Inside Kung-Fu Magazine ran an article 15 years ago or so on Dr Painter's Candle extinshishing demonstration...along with his hooking up some students to some state of the art Medical Equipment, with Western Medical Doctors present...and showed how a simple light to moderate strike on a students Vital Chest area...dropped their blood pressure, increased and made their heart race irractically, and watched over 15 minutes as the students and voulenteers medical condition steadily deteriorated...until the Physicians insisted the experiment be stopped...at which point Dr Painter administered an Herbal Drink, and massage to unblock the meridians and return the voulenteer's to their previous healthy state.
I will try and locate the article, pictures and documented research.
JDK
Royal Dragon
01-04-2007, 02:15 PM
Your source is "Inside Kung Fu?"
Oh Brother....:rolleyes:
lkfmdc
01-04-2007, 02:22 PM
come on! we all know,,,,,, if it is in INSIDE KUNG FU, then is HAS to be true! :p
Piercinghammer
01-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Yao sing:
Richard Pitts went to prison twice for trafficking and distributing cocaine. He was an absolutely lousy martial artist. I can only think of how disappointed and broken his parents where to see what their son had turned out to be.
Hello R.A.F.
Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong branch
Choy Li Fut Hung Sing branch
Yang Tai chi
MonkeyKingUSA
01-04-2007, 02:32 PM
Speaking of conspiracy theories there seems to a few about his predicament.
My family and freinds know of him through Hop Sing, Art of Desire, grew up with or were just freinds of him. I never met him myself but it seems that ever one in Akron has a D. Pitts story or two, he seems to be a local legend.
D. Pitts Jr. was a very colorful character. I am surprised at the number of non-martial artists who had heard of him. I only knew him from the Art of Desire studio in Akron off of Brittain Rd.. In the middle 80's I was living in Ft. Wayne, Indiana and on a trip to Akron to visit family I called the Art of Desire to see if I could train there during my weekend home. I met Richard and we kind of clicked. After that I started bringing select students to Akron so we could all (Art of Desire and my school) cross-train. This was when Richard was married to his first wife and had a son who was also named Richard.
Richard taught two of my students and myself Ong's Iron Body training at that time. Richard also gave me a videotape of some of his top students doing Kwan Ying Do forms.
Richard knew that I had been selling videotapes on the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen form and that I had made quite a bit of money this way. So, he was interested in how to do this himself. I coached him a bit on how I had done it, but I don't think he was as successful. It was after this that he self-published the Kuer Wong book.
It was through Richard that I met Wayne Schultz. Wayne was taking over control of the World Chinese Martial Arts Federation started by a guy named Greco (I never met the guy). Richard was suppose to be the Ohio state representative for the organization. Mike Biggie represented Oklahoma and I represented Indiana. That is how we all got to know each other. Those were some great times.
Later, I moved back to the Akron area where I grew up and Richard and I kind of drifted apart. The next time that I saw him, he and a few of his students were practicing some dark form of martial arts spirituality. And it seems his life went downhill from there. It was so sad. He had been a great friend.
As far as his martial arts ability, Richard had no extraordinary ability as a fighter (sparring-wise). What was extraordinary was the fact that you could not hurt him. He was the toughest man I have ever met and I have met A LOT of martial artists from many different arts. He once told me, "No one can ever hurt me as bad as I hurt myself during training". I have no doubt about this!
The students that my students and I fought were poor to mediocre fighters. Though you have to realize that Kwan Ying Do at that time did not allow sparring. So I think we were the first people they had ever fought against.
Richard later added a boxing ring at the Art of Desire and I think they trained their actual fighting skills more than forms then.
It was actually from Richard's school and influence that I took the motto for my school, "Train Like An Animal". This was printed on a T-shirt and workout uniform that Richard once gave me. It seemed to fit a Monkey style school quite nicely. :)
unkokusai
01-04-2007, 03:18 PM
just able to seperate fact from fiction.
LOL! Apparently not. Say hello to P.T. for me! :rolleyes:
As I've said elsewhere, I really enjoyed the articles that Allen wrote for Inside Kung Fu. But I must confess that I thought their uniforms were a bit outlandish. I remember seeing Allen and his top three students who were all women (how the hell does that work???) and they looked like they were circus performers. Allen was wearing some shiny studded belt. And the women were wearing kung fu trousers with colourful Lycra leotard tops! :confused:
Akronviper
01-04-2007, 03:35 PM
It was through Richard that I met Wayne Schultz. Wayne was taking over control of the World Chinese Martial Arts Federation started by a guy named Greco (I never met the guy). Richard was suppose to be the Ohio state representative for the organization. Mike Biggie represented Oklahoma and I represented Indiana. That is how we all got to know each other.
Interesting, I didnt know Akrons M.A links were so deep and intertwined.
As far as his martial arts ability, Richard had no extraordinary ability as a fighter (sparring-wise). What was extraordinary was the fact that you could not hurt him. He was the toughest man I have ever met and I have met A LOT of martial artists from many different arts. He once told me, "No one can ever hurt me as bad as I hurt myself during training". I have no doubt about this!
That is one thing I have heard about him, His M.A skill was not that great, but it didnt really need to be beacuse you could not hurt him he was like a bull. Ive been told you couldnt hurt him and he was as strong as an ox.
WOW N.E Ohio is really delivering in this thread.
Yao Sing
01-04-2007, 03:45 PM
Piercinghammer
Sounds like that must have been back in the Jay T. Will days. :)
Ving Sing
01-04-2007, 03:46 PM
Speaking of conspiracy theories there seems to a few about his predicament.
My family and freinds know of him through Hop Sing, Art of Desire, grew up with or were just freinds of him. I never met him myself but it seems that ever one in Akron has a D. Pitts story or two, he seems to be a local legend.
I would not say local legend but more like local *******!
I have seen all the jokers in action, and yes ole pitts used to send his monkeys to the local bars to pick on the drunks....The sad thing is half the time they got there a@@ beat. The only thing they had going for them was they had good leg strenght, and where used to getting beat on. Some of you think i may be full of it, but i have been to there school, sparred with alot of them, accutally fought some of them, hell i was over on brown st. in akron where they had there SECRET SOCIETY meetings at Kraus's house. All the characters mentioned in this thread are the main reason martial arts in Ohio have a bad name..
MonkeyKingUSA
01-04-2007, 03:52 PM
Since my buddy Mike opened the box so to speak...:)
According to my past brother-in-law (the Summit Co. deputy sheriff who knew Richard and transported him to prison) Richard's plea bargain for his last incarceration was 20 years. :eek: That was the best deal he got.
He ended up hanging himself with his socks in solitary confinement.
A very sad ending to a tragic story. :( May God have mercy on his soul!
I knew Richard Pitts outside of the martial arts circles through someone who knew him quite well. I had lunch with him once or twice and met him over conversations maybe 10 times or so in the mid to late 80s.
I can only tell you what he conveyed to me and to my friend who was extremely close to him:
"I'll take five punches/kicks to get my one in and that will destroy you!"
"Not one of my underground fights lasted more than a minute!"
His strategy was to attempt to break the leg as quickly as possible.
He would do anything to win, including biting you ear off--not unknown among some martial artists.
He had baby blue eyes and blond hair--loved to go into bars and get mistaken for being gay---in the sense that they thought he was a push over and would challenge him--their mistake.
However, his death in prison, supposedly suicide---hung himself while in solitary confinement--really wasn't his style.
Wayne Schultz once took him to Jou Tsung Hwa's Zhang San Fang festival. Richard decided to try pushing hands---in two seconds he kicked the guy and got him on the ground. He got disqualified and he couldn't understand why sincing winning was the outcome and he dominated! LOL
MonkeyKingUSA
01-04-2007, 05:44 PM
RAF wrote:
"I'll take five punches/kicks to get my one in and that will destroy you!"
Yep, that is the Richard that I knew! :) And the festival incident doesn't surprise me at all.
BTW, two FBI agents tried to arrest him in a bar out of state. He kicked their a$$es and walked out of the bar. :eek:
I can't imagine mistaking Richard for a pushover. He was as wide as he was tall. My Dad said that he believed he played center for the University of Akron Zips (football). Does anyone know if this is true?
As far as suicide being out of character, looking at twenty years in prison and time in soli would do some nasty things to your head. :(
I wonder if Art of Desire still has the hole I kicked in the wall (near the stairs) where I missed one of his student's head and hit the wall instead? Richard was not very happy about that incident, but hey, they were all bigger than little 'ol me. :D
Anyone ever hear from Joe, Perk, or "oops I lost my contact" Marvin (another funny story)?
Akronviper
01-04-2007, 06:11 PM
However, his death in prison, supposedly suicide---hung himself while in solitary confinement--really wasn't his style.
Thats kind of what I was wondering, alot of people belive getting caught transporting someone elses drugs and them being out a lot of money makes for a conspiracy. Some dont think it was self inflicted but then agin Elvis is alive too. Adds to the legend I guess. Love him or hate him one of the few in Akron that many still talk about.
Ving Sing was this about a secret society? Sounds fun :D .
Monky King you think any of those books are floating around or were they like a limited supply thing way back when. Sounds interesting.
The story goes that when they found Richard, he was hanging in some meditative like pose. I can't remember his name but it might be Marvin---about 5 or 6 years ago he came to our school and trained in baji---he was a bouncer---maybe 5'8" but stocky and strong. Extremely polite and likeable. I think Richard was like a father to him---and he told us what I just wrote. However, again, someone outside of all these martial arts circles told a similar tale. Rumors? Legend building? I don't know. They say there was a detective who really had it hard for Richard---very hard and obsessive.
I am looking at Richard's Volume II: Keur Wong: An Introduction to Fighting Techniques.
Its copyright is 1986 and he was 33 at the time. He graduated from the University of Akron with a certified teaching degree in physical education. He was 5'11" and 198 pounds. Says he uses Iron Palm, The Nine Times and meditates with tai chi.
I think that ends about all I can say--again, whether accurate or not, Richard says he had no fear of Gene Chicoine and wouldn't even waste a breath about Allen. I got to the area around 1985 and what a legend Femon Ong was. He significantly influenced both Chicoine and Allen---Some people swear by them others curse them.
I knew a neighbor of Femon Ong and he trained his small body techniques. A friend met someone who had trained the small body techniques who lived in Florida and we also knew someone who was currently teaching it---all three were pretty different in the practice regarding meat, sex and the actual tempo of the exercises.
Who can say what changed and didn't change?
LOL! Apparently not. Say hello to P.T. for me! :rolleyes:
Ok ..I give, you win.;)
Im not going to convince you, so what doyou say a call a truce ?
JD
MonkeyKingUSA
01-04-2007, 08:20 PM
RAF wrote:
The story goes that when they found Richard, he was hanging in some meditative like pose. I can't remember his name but it might be Marvin---about 5 or 6 years ago he came to our school and trained in baji---he was a bouncer---maybe 5'8" but stocky and strong. Extremely polite and likeable. I think Richard was like a father to him---and he told us what I just wrote.
I didn't hear anything about a meditative type pose.
The Marvin that I was referring to was African American and had been a police officer. He lost his job due to his connection with D. Pitts Jr.. I know this because years later I ran into him when he was working as a security guard and he told me about losing his job.
I am looking at Richard's Volume II: Keur Wong: An Introduction to Fighting Techniques.
Yes, that would be the book that I was talking about. 1986 was when I moved back to Akron, so that would be the time frame.
Akronviper,
Richard gave me a copy, but I no longer have it. I don't know how many copies he had made. I wish that I still had a copy. Just for sentimental value. Richard and I went very different paths, but I treasured his friendship and appreciated the hospitality that he showed me and my students.
I never knew about Richard's illegal activities until after his arrest. When I first met Richard, he had a spiritual side to him. I remember that he had shown me some of his philosophical writings. He seemed proud of his Catholic faith. He was proud of his wife and loved his son. I always wondered what changed him.
The positive things that still remain from this time period are my friends, Mike Biggie and Wayne Schultz. I am pleased to see the men and martial artists that they have grown to be.
Richard A. Tolson
Sometime maybe we can delve into my early recollections of a young Tony Yang. :) An outstanding martial artist from the Akron area!
Akronviper
01-05-2007, 11:11 AM
Thanks for sharing your stories guys, I just love this topic and about local martial artist for some reason.
If I find the book Ill let you guys know where. I'm gonna try I've been looking for old demo videos from the local area (Ong, Chicoine, Kruger, Allen) just seems that every one is getting old and all there is is conflicting stories and legends I figure I better start looking around now or they may be gone forever and soon so will the people who know too.
Thanks again and if any one has a cool story feel free to share.
Just how did Green Dragon get such a high profile and mystique abou them in the 80s/90s? Was it just very good marketing? Was it because of their association with Inside Kung Fu magazine? They seemed to come out of nowhere and got famous overnight.
RAF wrote:
[B]......The positive things that still remain from this time period are my friends, Mike Biggie and Wayne Schultz. I am pleased to see the men and martial artists that they have grown to be.
Richard A. Tolson
Sometime maybe we can delve into my early recollections of a young Tony Yang. :) An outstanding martial artist from the Akron area!
Hey Rich, I studied with Sifu Yang about 10 years ago...and more recently with one of his student/teachers Dave Shenk who owns and operates
http://www.bodymindharmony.com/index.php
The teaching was a little too mystical for me as a christian...so I stopped attending. Sifu and I did develop a good friendship at the time..and he is a really good guy.
He and Master Yang have since had a falling out...and Tony moved his School from Canton to Arlingnton St in Akron http://www.wutangcenter.com/
Id love to here any early stories of Sifu that you have....
Here are some pictures http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html
JD
MonkeyKingUSA
01-05-2007, 03:18 PM
Akron Friends,
It sounds like we need a reunion!:) Anyone that is interested, please let me know.
Kal,
I think their fame stemmed from their ads and the fact that they were offering knowledge that many were not. Then stories to IKF were sent in by/about Allen and Chicoine. I cringed when I started seeing stories about Chicoine because everyone in the Akron area knew the kind of character that he was.
One of my kung fu brothers had his school "visited" by some of Chicoine's students. They wanted to fight him. However, my friend was working that particular night and only his students were there. I also had another engagement that night. Those that were there at the next class that I attended probably remember how angry I was when I heard about it. I tried to send a message back to come "visit" my school, but never got a response.
Years later I had a student who was interested in Shuai Jiao. He asked about training with Chicoine. I told him everything that I had heard about him, but he went for an "interview" anyways. After Chicoine bragged to him about sending students to my kung fu brothers' school to beat him up, my student wisely chose not to study with Chicoine and reported what Chicoine had told him. BTW, in case you might question my student's integrity in reporting the events, he is no flunky but rather a superintendant of a local school system.
Prior to 1997 Tony was primarily involved in his family business--Genghis Kahn Restaurant. He taught on weekends. An article a year or two back was written in Inside Kungfu (sorry Gene) about Tony's early days in the United States and the usefulness of his praying mantis training. He and Thomas W. Ruff worked as bouncers at Fireside bar in Canton, Ohio.
After 1997 he opened his school up in Akron and we have our annual tournament (10 years now).
Overall, I don't think we have very many interesting stories to tell--Just trying to pay the rent and make a decent livin. LOL, really.
MonkeyKingUSA
01-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Prior to 1997 Tony was primarily involved in his family business--Genghis Kahn Restaurant. He taught on weekends. An article a year or two back was written in Inside Kungfu (sorry Gene) about Tony's early days in the United States and the usefulness of his praying mantis training. He and Thomas W. Ruff worked as bouncers at Fireside bar in Canton, Ohio.
After 1997 he opened his school up in Akron and we have our annual tournament (10 years now).
Overall, I don't think we have very many interesting stories to tell--Just trying to pay the rent and make a decent livin. LOL, really.
RAF & JDK,
I met Tony in 1986 after I had moved back to Akron. Tony's family was part owners of a restaurant named, The Great Wall. IMHO it was the best Chinese restaurant in the North Canton area. Tony and I used to talk about martial arts during my family's visits to the restaurant. I remember an elderly gentleman used to greet us and bid us farewell. My little girl loved seeing him everytime we went there to eat. She also loved the big fish tanks.
By this time Tony had already done the videotapes for WTN Productions. He was quite proud about the nice payment that he had received. I was kicking myself because they had contacted me when I was selling my Hung Gar tapes in Ft. Wayne, Indiana and I wasn't interested in having them distribute my tapes. Poor business choice on my part.
Tony struck me as a very kind and humble man. Success does not seem to have changed him any. :)
When I first met Tony, he was teaching many students in his backyard. He once invited me to watch a workout and I was impressed.
Now Tony has the main school on Arlington Rd., a very nice facility, and a few branch locations. Like Tony, his studio instructors are very kind and down to earth men. Everytime I see them I am impressed with the caliber of men Tony has raised up.
Tony runs a very nice tournament every year that serves as a memorial to Master Liu. It seems that Tony has never forgotten his martial roots and shows proper respect to the man who was his mentor.
I felt honored that Tony invited me to perform our Monkey style in one of the Master's Demonstrations at his tournament and to act as a judge. Especially since the tournament is attended by instructors and students from throughout the US and foreign lands. This past years tournament had competitors from as far as Alaska and Qingdao, CHINA.
I met Dave Shenk through his health store near Tallmadge Ave.. When I first met him I believe he was still one of Tony's students and was present at the class Tony held in his backyard decades ago. Though I don't really know Dave personally, and am not sure if he would even know me by name, he was very cordial the times that we did talk.
Well, this is all my old brain can remember for now.
Friends,
For those of you not involved in these old stories, I hope you are seeing that many of us in NE Ohio have tried to work together as friends and even as brothers. Don't let some of the bad things you might have heard of our area color your opinion of all of us.
Richard A. Tolson
iron tiger
01-05-2007, 07:30 PM
I remember seeing Allen and his top three students who were all women (how the hell does that work???)
He explains that pretty thoroughly on the Q&A tapes.
Akron Friends,
It sounds like we need a reunion!:) Anyone that is interested, please let me know.
Kal,
I think their fame stemmed from their ads and the fact that they were offering knowledge that many were not. Then stories to IKF were sent in by/about Allen and Chicoine. I cringed when I started seeing stories about Chicoine because everyone in the Akron area knew the kind of character that he was.
One of my kung fu brothers had his school "visited" by some of Chicoine's students. They wanted to fight him. However, my friend was working that particular night and only his students were there. I also had another engagement that night. Those that were there at the next class that I attended probably remember how angry I was when I heard about it. I tried to send a message back to come "visit" my school, but never got a response.
Years later I had a student who was interested in Shuai Jiao. He asked about training with Chicoine. I told him everything that I had heard about him, but he went for an "interview" anyways. After Chicoine bragged to him about sending students to my kung fu brothers' school to beat him up, my student wisely chose not to study with Chicoine and reported what Chicoine had told him. BTW, in case you might question my student's integrity in reporting the events, he is no flunky but rather a superintendant of a local school system.
Sifu Shenk was also visited bytwo of Chicoine's Flunkies one night as he was closing up his Store.
They told him to stop calling himself Mr Kung-Fu....or they would beat him up and wreck his Store/School.
There are numerous other stories I have heard consisting of similiar occurrences and threats...but Sifu Shenk is the only one I know first hand.
Does anyone see a pattern here?????????????????????
Leaving Master Ong after 10 years of sucking him dry of his info...
Getting kicked off the Police Force
Owning a Strip Club
Sending his students to threaten and bully Drunks and other Schools & Teachers
I mean..if it looks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck...etc...
JD
MonkeyKingUSA
01-05-2007, 07:41 PM
JDK wrote:
Sifu Shenk was also visited bytwo of Chicoine's Flunkies one night as he was closing up his Store.
They told him to stop calling himself Mr Kung-Fu....or they would beat him up and wreck his Store/School.
That is why the fashionable martial artist in the Akron area wears Beretta (firearms). :D BTW, did I mention that I am an Ohio Concealed Carry instructor? :)
LOL!:)
Monkeyking, did you used to have your school on S.Arlington in Green back in the mid 1990's????
If so, I and a friend of mine came out and talked to you one evening.
I went to your blog and when I saw your pictures I feel pretty sure we have met.
You and your students practice on gravel which I thought was cool.
BM
RAF & JDK,
I met Tony in 1986 after I had moved back to Akron. Tony's family was part owners of a restaurant named, The Great Wall. IMHO it was the best Chinese restaurant in the North Canton area.
Tony struck me as a very kind and humble man. Success does not seem to have changed him any. :)
When I first met Tony, he was teaching many students in his backyard. He once invited me to watch a workout and I was impressed.
That is the same time period I worked out in Tony's backyard in Canton!!!
I will never forget going up and down his backyard doing tornado kicks!!!
Then I remember we also met somewhere closer to Downtown Canton I believe..inside a Building.
Tony was practicing with rope dart on a chain...I had seen seen that weapon before!
I met Dave Shenk through his health store near Tallmadge Ave.. When I first met him I believe he was still one of Tony's students and was present at the class Tony held in his backyard decades ago. Though I don't really know Dave personally, and am not sure if he would even know me by name, he was very cordial the times that we did talk.[/quote[
I MET Dave at Tony's Backyard workouts! Small world huh? [quote]
Well, this is all my old brain can remember for now.
Friends,
For those of you not involved in these old stories, I hope you are seeing that many of us in NE Ohio have tried to work together as friends and even as brothers. Don't let some of the bad things you might have heard of our area color your opinion of all of us.
Richard A. Tolson
Amen...
JD
MonkeyKingUSA
01-05-2007, 09:23 PM
LOL!:)
Monkeyking, did you used to have your school on S.Arlington in Green back in the mid 1990's????
If so, I and a friend of mine came out and talked to you one evening.
I went to your blog and when I saw your pictures I feel pretty sure we have met.
You and your students practice on gravel which I thought was cool.
BM
LOL! Yes, that was me. We trained outside of my apartment in the driveway. If you can fall and do ditang (groundfighting) on gravel, you can do it about anywhere.
I have a much nicer set up now and would consider it an honor if you stopped by my school in North Canton. PM me for a time and directions if you are interested.
The students I was teaching at that time are now instructors. Their links are at the website.
Piercinghammer
01-05-2007, 10:38 PM
Another note:
Many people have mentioned the Stone warrior exercise. Where did it come from etc. That was completely made up by John Allen. Circa 1978 was when it first started to be taught. It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's grandson does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set.
Knowing these guys, it just goes with being mysterious and rare, the big selling point. They and they alone have the secret teachings of old, and for $69.95 you can also learn the cross section of these rare systems.
I have news for you, take that to Philadelphia or Chicago's Chinatown and start pushing it to the locals
and see how long it takes before you meet up with a couple young men fresh off the boat, that think your making fun of them. See what happens.
Funny story: I am friends with a guy who had studied At Green Dragon years ago. His thing was White eyebrow.
He finished his schooling and moved away from the area. Ended up in of all places Chattanooga Tenn.
For those of you who do not know, there was a for years a nice little Chinese restaurant in that town, the people who ran that restaurant where "for real" White eyebrow folks. My friend found out about it and made it a point to introduce himself. He was invited to visit the class and with excitement he did. He was asked to show the class one of his White eyebrow sets. He did, at least gave part of the opening gestures. He said all he remembers is the group of students that where there, making loud hoots and he was knocked unconscious. He said that he woke up in the trash dumpster outside the back door and the door was locked.
Moral to the story. Be careful what you learn and who is teaching you. when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person. Something as simple as the opening gestures of a form done incorrectly shown to a group of hard core people who have spent their lives doing it, can be taken as an insult.
How are you to know? Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
Wood Dragon
01-06-2007, 12:11 AM
He explains that pretty thoroughly on the Q&A tapes.
Could you give us the Cliff's Notes version?
Does anyone have a list of exactly which Inside Kung Fu issues had articles in them by Choicoine and/or Allen?
I know they had a bi-monthly column in IKF that ran between (I think) 1990 and 92. Does anyone know the exact dates?
iron tiger
01-06-2007, 10:25 AM
It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's nephew does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set
Lolol! But whatever. At the least, thanks for helping confirm certain suspicions I've had about a few things...
Explains some of the times I've been directly lied to by some of the so-called "celebrity" or better-well-known kung fu instructors during visits to their schools. Thanks again.
He explains that pretty thoroughly on the Q&A tapes.
Could you give us the Cliff's Notes version?
While still noting my "puzzlement" as to why 'kal' hasn't already done so, since he seems to've seen those tapes...sure.
Attitude & extremely hard work are the chief criteria for advancement in that school. And women just continually far outdo the men in these areas.
And I will reiterate that, in my experiences there as well as occasional email contacts subsequent of, Bible studies were/are kept separate from what goes on in the MA instruction.
I've got a lot of stories I could tell, too, about a lot of people mentioned in this thread, some which would portray them in a good light, some otherwise, including numerous stories about Chicoine as well as a load of tales about the superlative--unmatched, in fact--skills of Grandmaster Chang and what he was really capable of (something few people really are in a position to understand; no, really! The guy was a phenomenal MA); but I really have no wish to go there.
But I will say that I personally witnessed numberless occasions when some students, or at times guests posing as eager students, got exposed on their b.s. and quickly, um...didn't last so long. And then ran out to tell everyone a completely different version of what'd "actually" transpired. So I take a lot of the claims related here with a very small grain of salt, as most of you clearly do mine...So be it, I don't really care, either.
Fascinating stuff, though, MA in NE Ohio. Wow.
:D
Akronviper
01-06-2007, 11:27 AM
To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's nephew does not recognize Allen in way.
Was Master Ark Wong located in the Columbus area in the late 70's?
Piercinghammer
01-06-2007, 12:08 PM
Akronviper:
The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
.
Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi
Another note:
Many people have mentioned the Stone warrior exercise. Where did it come from etc. That was completely made up by John Allen. Circa 1978 was when it first started to be taught. It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's grandson does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set.
Knowing these guys, it just goes with being mysterious and rare, the big selling point. They and they alone have the secret teachings of old, and for $69.95 you can also learn the cross section of these rare systems.
I have news for you, take that to Philadelphia or Chicago's Chinatown and start pushing it to the locals
and see how long it takes before you meet up with a couple young men fresh off the boat, that think your making fun of them. See what happens.
Funny story: I am friends with a guy who had studied At Green Dragon years ago. His thing was White eyebrow.
He finished his schooling and moved away from the area. Ended up in of all places Chattanooga Tenn.
For those of you who do not know, there was a for years a nice little Chinese restaurant in that town, the people who ran that restaurant where "for real" White eyebrow folks. My friend found out about it and made it a point to introduce himself. He was invited to visit the class and with excitement he did. He was asked to show the class one of his White eyebrow sets. He did, at least gave part of the opening gestures. He said all he remembers is the group of students that where there, making loud hoots and he was knocked unconscious. He said that he woke up in the trash dumpster outside the back door and the door was locked.
Moral to the story. Be careful what you learn and who is teaching you. when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person. Something as simple as the opening gestures of a form done incorrectly shown to a group of hard core people who have spent their lives doing it, can be taken as an insult.
How are you to know? Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?
Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?
iron tiger
01-07-2007, 05:16 PM
when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person
Good thing General Chang limited his teaching then, considering all the diverse forms & styles & systems he had learned & mastered from so many teachers.
But, fwiw, from a post at http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/2717-green-dragon-academy-2.html :
I used to see them in the different martial arts magazines Inside Kung Fu, Inside Karate, Black Belt,etc....I thought they were fake because they would advertise every style of kung fu known to man even some very rare styles
It comes up from time to time in various forums that anyone who claims expertise (or "mastery") in a large number of Chinese styles *must* be fraudulent in some way.
But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.
In what some consider the more "Classically oriented" approaches to learning Chinese forms & styles, a student is properly taught to master the *principles* and fundamental building blocks (stances, punches, kicks, all the blocking techniques and etc) that make up *all* Chinese forms and styles, just as a musician learns scales & riffs & chord progressions. Then the differences, as well as the similarities, between the various styles, is ingrained as the student adds more and more forms from differing (sometimes starkly contrasting) styles to his or her repertoire (when such variety is available in the training). It is "mastery" of all the underlying Chinese fighting & training principles that is of supreme importance in this approach and which provides an important key to understanding such a point of view.
Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers.
Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?
Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum? Or actually watch the Q & A tapes?
Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?
He oversaw everything, at least while I was there. Other students taught some of the beginner's classes--teaching being one of the requirements for rank, there, since in order to be able to teach something you generally have to overlearn it--but in the end it all came back to Sifu Allen.
Leaving Master Ong after 10 years of sucking him dry of his info...
The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.
Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?
Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.
(wink)
Royal Dragon
01-07-2007, 05:35 PM
But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.
Reply]
That is because the pianist can sit down and play each seperate style at the drop of a hat and show he's got the mastery, but when you ask these so called masters of 300 forms, all they can to is show Karate like fundementals, and flavor no matter what form they do.
Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers
Reply]
I have his Tai Tzu tapes. Let me tell you, there are NO Tai Tzu fundementals, principals, or flavor in their form. Some of the choreography is actually Five Animals mixed in where the Tai Tzu moves had been omited, or forgotten. Whoever taught that form did not kow Tai Tzu at all.
It looks like they just had the choreography from somewhere. It looks like the form was filmed at a competition, and then someone with NO Tai Tzu background tried to copy it useing the fundementals of whatever bad karate system they known previously.
Unless someone trained form child hood every day like a full time job, for 20 years there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
iron tiger
01-07-2007, 05:42 PM
there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
You know, that's really about as silly as Fister's premise that a pro athlete would "do anything" to get an edge.
Sorry, but some of you guys really crack me up. If YOU don't know of a way, then clearly NO ONE ELSE does either.
:p
p.s. Incidentally, Allen is a classically-trained pianist.
p.p.s. for kal: Just wondering...Had you considered contacting Dave Cater as to his opinion about Allen's legitimacy? Like what kind of a "reference check" they did before hiring him as a columnist (did you see the one on lineages, btw?) & contributor? Etc?
Royal Dragon
01-07-2007, 05:53 PM
Like David Carter has any credibility here......:rolleyes:
iron tiger
01-07-2007, 06:04 PM
Like David Carter has any credibility here......
Ah, the Royal Drag. genius strikes again!
I said to ask about the process they went through. Who else did they check with, for example? Whatever you might think of Cater, he was in touch with numerous people throughout the CMA. Including, say, Ark Wong. And, um...others. ;)
And as silly as it is (cover story on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, eg), IKF isn't really all that much sillier than any other of the "kung fu" ragazines out there.
:D
Royal Dragon
01-07-2007, 06:15 PM
I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu, especially Tai Tzu.
The point peope make is that he stole forms from competitions, and then tried to copy them to sell on his tapes. Well, I HAVE his Tai Tzu tape, and I can clearly see that noone on that tape knows any Tai Tzu at all. It *Clearly* looks like a KArate guy, wiht really, really bad fundementals copied the choreogrhy only form a tape or book or something. No real Tai Tzu there at all. I don't need to ask anyone anything as I am my own expert on the subject.
iron tiger
01-07-2007, 06:18 PM
I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu etc etc
I guess the main problem I'm having is that I didn't know your other username was kal.
Oh well, gotta go train. But whatta thread!
And peace be wit' you.
:rolleyes:
..Leaving Master Ong after sucking him dry of Info...
The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.
Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?
Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.
(wink)
Rhetorical or not I am answering you....you wrote The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.
That is pure Bull****.
Master Ong was a very giving man. He treated his students like sons...and would give you the shirt off his back.
He taught Chicione a Lifetime of information AND many closely guarded secrets of training..and how did Gene repay him??? Leave him and talk several students into leaving with him . Gratitude huh?...NOT! :mad:
And as for it being "taught wrong".. E-Mail Chicione and he will still admit today that Master Ong used to kick his ass on a weekly basis. Why ? It was Master Ongs last attempt to try and develop some humility in Chicione....but my main point is if what he was teaching was so wrong...Chicoine should have been able to defeat Master Ong...I mean he was taller and an extremely good fighter, and he remains so to this day. I suppose the pictures he keeps at Ho Chun of Master Ong are to remind him of all the incorrect teaching he received huh ??:cool:
I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?
And one last thing...you only adressed one of my descriptions of Chicione,,,
what about the other ones.????
Getting kicked off the Police Force
Owning a Strip Club ( Nice example of morality)
Threatening other Schools and teachers just to bully them
Sending his students to Bars to beat up Drunks to "prove" their technigues worked :confused:
I could add more...but why bother.
You obviously have your mind closed
JD
iron tiger
01-07-2007, 07:57 PM
Funny stuff, JDK.
I did quite a bit of research before I entered Green Dragon, and even more "footwork" afterward, though...
More when time. 'Night!
In a PM e-mail a former martial arts student from the late 70s ask me to post this.
Not sure what his point is but as a favor to him here it is:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm
"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find
a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause,
but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers
them unlimited opportunities for both".
Eric Hoffer
Akronviper
01-07-2007, 09:10 PM
Akronviper:
The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
.
Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi
Thank You Mr. Biggie, Dr. Wu was exactly the man I was thinking of especially because of the Tai Chi training. Just could not remember the name.
Akronviper
01-07-2007, 09:19 PM
I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?
JDK, sounds as if your representing the facts to present your own personal agenda. Just that some of the facts seem to be representing this. :confused:
Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum?
No I didn't. What was the issue and year? I'll try and track it down.
iron tiger
01-08-2007, 10:33 AM
a Lifetime of information AND many closely guarded secrets of training
Oh, baloney. And so what if Ong could kick Chicoine or Allen's behinds waaaay back then? Many parts of your reply don't even quite make sense. And you are unquestionably misrepresenting several facts; easily checkable through other sources had other people been so inclined...
As far as I'm concerned, good enough to just say that some of us define certain words in completely different ways. Words like "generous," for example.
Lot of other ways to determine just how much "correct" teaching Ong actually passed along to his various students, especially for some of us out here who have a pretty good idea about some of the things he was capable of demonstrating (and did, on many occasions).
'Nuff said on that. As "closed mind" is another of those nebulous concepts some of us would seem to define differently.
:rolleyes:
Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum?
No I didn't. What was the issue and year? I'll try and track it down.
Been a long time, but iirr it was Aug '88. But then you have watched those Q & A tapes, no? Or just skimmed through them?
Interesting thread in any event.
Now on to more important matters. Like: Go Buckeyes! (tonight, that is).
:)
Been a long time, but iirr it was Aug '88. But then you have watched those Q & A tapes, no? Or just skimmed through them?
Interesting thread in any event.
Now on to more important matters. Like: Go Buckeyes! (tonight, that is).
:)
Just seen parts of them, and that was quite some time ago.
I do remember being impressed with Allen's public speaking ability.
I have Feb 88 which is the Iron Palm article by Chicoine and Allen. I also have the issues where they describe Exotic Weapons as well as the one from May 1990 with the article about Beginners Learining Chinese Weapons.
I'll have to look for Aug 88.
I also still need to find the one from September 89, which is the article about Strength training.
Like I said above, I have always liked reading articles by Green Dragon.
iron tiger
01-08-2007, 01:10 PM
I have Feb 88
Cool. I missed that one and never found the back ish that had it (even tried going through IKF/Cater but they had none left in stock). I think that, somewhere or other, I have all the rest except maybe the last one (covered Tiger Paws) or two that appeared after I let my script expire.
All (there are quite a few) are Xeroxed copies. Sometime or other (early 90s I think) somebody (ex-GD student and one or two "by extension" people) made a zillion copies of these and passed them around to various people, as I understand it.
I also have quite a few of the old (early 70s/mid 80s?) newspaper articles re: Ong, Chang, Chicoine, Green Dragon, etc., in a box somewhere over the garage? Some I've scanned onto disk, but I'd have to dig 'em out.
I originally got curious about Green Dragon after seeing their demo team perform in the Kent State Student Center Plaza back in about '80 (?). Started asking around (I had many friends & their older brothers who trained in various area schools, including some of the more "well known" ones). Saw that demo team (slightly different make up) perform & answer questions again at an Akron mall.
Joined the Kent Club. Friends & I began comparing notes on our training & what kinds of things resulted from doing some of the forms & exercises. Etc. I'd mostly done boxing (Mancini & Dokes being from Y-town & Akron), weights (Black's Health in Cleveland & a few Akron-area gyms) and pro football (boyhood friend was a kid manager/ball boy for the Browns), so there was quite an adjustment necessary. And so on, to the point of a few expeditions to the West Coast where I was given a couple of comprehensive "tours" of dozens of schools by a couple MA friends as well as several fact-finding "missions" of my own.
Very interesting comparisons between what was going on in some of those schools and what I'd experienced at GD. And heard about regarding Chicoine's school, as I did no training there but have a few acquaintances who did.
In truth there is a lot that I continue to be curious about concerning the full relationship between Allen & Chicoine. From what I do know, however, neither is too keen on the notion that the CMA community as a whole should be "one big happy family" but rather they tend more to the idea that factions along with some disagreement & competitive dissension is a healthier state of things.
Chicoine supposedly swore never to teach a sport approach to MA/Shuai Chiao, one of the conditions for his affiliation etc with GM Chang. Allen doesn't believe in that sport-style stuff, either, as he details (ad nauseum, in some views) pretty extensively on a lot of his tapes. He teaches as he was taught by his better teachers (several Chinese masters): in the "Classical" Chinese tradition, that is, as things were done prior to 1930. And does not, and afaik will not, budge from that approach.
According to that method, beginners are NOTHING, let alone worthy of respect or recognition etc until they EARN it with an amazing amount of work & sweat and PROVE their loyalty over time. People don't like that, or question his approach? Outside of some of his students, he really doesn't give a rat's arse what other people think. But he knows what is taught in other schools and is perfectly capable of demonstrating why he does things differently when someone respectfully asks (they do an orientation with incoming classes where there is a Q & A period, similar to the sessions that were taped for sale, when any question about anything is permitted).
He really isn't the idiot some portray him to be; and he certainly is not a "frustrated paratrooper"; though, for reasons that become clear at the home school (mostly related to the lack of discipline in the "average" beginning student, as well as matters of time, ie getting everything done), he is very military & regimented in his approach. Around his students he's a surprisingly (to some) nice guy, with a very dry sense of humor. And he does know his stuff (and almost everyone else's!)
And he did not "steal" his forms (that one is really, really hilarious, actually), or just "make things up".
I'd seen GM Chang perform before I got into Green Dragon (I knew Chicoine's niece), and then once after at a promotional banquet. And freely admit that I did not really understand what I was seeing at the time, in spite of the fact that he blew my mind. But over the years, and after a lot of hard work on some of those programs (and with the aid of things like Allen's IKF articles) I have a much better understanding of what had been going on.
In my opinion, knowing what people like Chang, Ong, Ark Wong, and a few others (don't even know who's all still alive these days) were really capable of is what's really missing from TCMA teaching these days; or, as Allen puts it, the "demythologizing" of the Chinese martial arts is one (but just one) of the chief problems with them today.
On the other hand, even when I've successfully convinced an occasional training partner of what's possible with some of these forms & programs, they just hardly ever stick with it---despite their enthusiasm and support otherwise---once they see how much work & time it really takes to have success with these things.
I don't really know why Chicoine never entered UFC (or whether Chang would have; he certainly would've won handily---and that's not a remark made lightly) or a similar competition. I've heard from many guys about his closed-door fights. I know that for years he was challenging any & everybody out there to a no-holds-barred rumble, and, again, in all likelihood would've won (the training really does work for the very small handful of people who commit to it, assuming it's been taught corrrectly; and yes, it is a true lifestyle commitment, you can't just do it as any kind of hobby or trophy-hunting sport thing); countless people have related stories & evidence about his fighting skills, and Chang certainly seemed confident of the abilities he made sure Chicoine had before giving him control of the ISCA (& before the Grandmaster's untimely death).
I wish someone would ask him. (Mr. Cater???)
Very long (about 30+ years) story compressed into a couple superficial paragraphs, but hopefully you get the gist. (Boy, this is long! Sorry, but I really don't wanna waste my, or anyone else's, time with all this over & over again.) As has been said, some people will simply never be convinced, no matter what you show or tell them. As evidenced by some of the absolutely remarkable demos Allen & Chicoine used to do.
Anyway, now I really do have to go get ready for the game tonight.
Happy training to you, kal, and to all. Whatever choices you've made along that line.
And Go Buckeyes!
http://www.guba.com/watch/2000790797?duration_step=0&fields=23&mst=63&pp=40&query=bak%20mei&sb=5&set=5&sf=0&size_step=0&o=22&sample=1168528857:6dd811207fa8edbd6a757cea04f9da97 bfe06cc1
This was posted on another forum
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1168468297
_________________________________________
In reference to the thread posted here on this forum:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42096&page=21
iron_silk
01-11-2007, 11:07 AM
It maybe inaccurate and not authentic...but it looks like their students do put in the effort! (i.e. they seem to believe in what they do)
I especially like the first person (girl in aqua blue pony tail) that shows up in the video (and then reappears). She does it pretty good...better then the rest of them. I wonder/hope she went to further her MA.
Found this Green Dragon demo on another forum
http://www.guba.com/watch/2000790797?duration_step=0&fields=23&mst=63&pp=40&query=bak%20mei&sb=5&set=5&sf=0&size_step=0&o=22&sample=1168528857:6dd811207fa8edbd6a757cea04f9da97 bfe06cc1
You can see a very very wide cross section of forms and styles on this link.
One of the women demostrators -- I believe her name is Marge Smith -- looks extremely strong and agile.
Mas Judt
01-14-2007, 08:47 PM
This iis all fine and good - but it does not change the fact that many of the forms and thier applications as demonstrated by Green Dragon are so far removed from the actual (and functional) versions that it is just ridiculous - thier Bak Mei and Xing-yi comes to mind from the ones I've seen.
I have no doubt that they may have something of value, but the proof is self-evident that everything they have is not very good.
Just an oobservation.
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 12:53 PM
as demonstrated by Green Dragon are so far removed from the actual (and functional) versions that it is just ridiculous
Or, vice versa.
;)
lkfmdc
01-16-2007, 01:41 PM
Ah, yes, I remember the justification band wagon in the 90's when similar things were said.....
Thier version of white eyebrow looks NOTHING like white eyebrow. They have a "wu mei" set that doesn't look like wu mei. Pretty much all their stuff looks like variations on the same northern based system. But in a few cases they are simply doing stuff wrong, ie in that clip they are doing bung bo from 7 star mantis, much of it is being done wrong...
Thier studnets look like they train hard, and a lot of the northern stuff is pretty good, why claim to know stuff you clearly don't know?
Royal Dragon
01-16-2007, 01:47 PM
Green Dragon are so far removed from the actual (and functional) versions that it is just ridiculous - thier Bak Mei and Xing-yi comes to mind from the ones I've seen
Reply]
Ditto for the Tai Tzu tapes.
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 01:56 PM
why claim to know stuff you clearly don't know?
Now there is some sweet irony!
;)
lkfmdc
01-16-2007, 02:47 PM
yeah, whatever dude, if you think that stuff is white eyebrow, more power to ya :rolleyes:
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 02:49 PM
more power to ya
That's where the internal strength sets & herbs come in.
:D
Cool. I missed that one and never found the back ish that had it (even tried going through IKF/Cater but they had none left in stock). I think that, somewhere or other, I have all the rest except maybe the last one (covered Tiger Paws) or two that appeared after I let my script expire.
All (there are quite a few) are Xeroxed copies. Sometime or other (early 90s I think) somebody (ex-GD student and one or two "by extension" people) made a zillion copies of these and passed them around to various people, as I understand it.
I also have quite a few of the old (early 70s/mid 80s?) newspaper articles re: Ong, Chang, Chicoine, Green Dragon, etc., in a box somewhere over the garage? Some I've scanned onto disk, but I'd have to dig 'em out.
Would you be able to scan and post some of these articles? I'll be happy to do the same. I also have the one from 1992 that you mentioned which has the White Lotus Tiger Paws. (It's that weapons with two sharp pointed stars on the ends, isn't it?)
Mas Judt
01-16-2007, 04:05 PM
"That's where the internal strength sets & herbs come in."
Now if that doesn't sound like OYD, I don't know what does. But you guys don'y s@ck as much as the OYD, and you definitely don't know Bak Mei.
This enters fantasy land folks, and it is unfortunate because it makes what you have that is good suspect.
IronWeasel
01-16-2007, 05:22 PM
"That's where the internal strength sets & herbs come in."
Now if that doesn't sound like OYD, I don't know what does. But you guys don'y s@ck as much as the OYD, and you definitely don't know Bak Mei.
This enters fantasy land folks, and it is unfortunate because it makes what you have that is good suspect.
Where did you learn your White Eyebrow?
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 05:46 PM
Would you be able to scan and post some of these articles?
Not without IKF's permission, and not feasible time or opportunity wise any time soon. I would like to do it when/if possible, however.
you definitely don't know Bak Mei
Or, maybe you don't; though you may know sport-style BM.
I know that Green Dragon defines the difference between "internal" and 'external' differently than most schools do, too. With good reasons that they are able to demonstrate from a practical standpoint.
Likewise, I have yet to see hardly any other martial arts school train forms the way they do, for the reasons that they do, from the various interrated systems & styles that they do.
Again, that half-second paradigm that guides most of their training.
So it makes perfect sense to me that their performances on the variety of styles that they do goes against the grain & "core thinking" of the mainstream kung fu schools; no big surprise.
lkfmdc
01-16-2007, 06:07 PM
sport-style BM.
it only gets better :rolleyes:
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 06:29 PM
it only gets better
If I ever actually see a kung fu guy fight---even in a sport style tourney, say; let alone as a matter of course---effectively using BM (or some other style) forms, ie the principles that underlie them (and ALL serious kung fu forms, regardless of style), then maybe my opinion would change.
But, there's a reason most people see most kung fu "fighting" as a joke.
Royal Dragon
01-16-2007, 06:44 PM
I know that Green Dragon defines the difference between "internal" and 'external' differently than most schools do, too. With good reasons that they are able to demonstrate from a practical standpoint.
Reply]
That is because they don't know the difference themselves...
Likewise, I have yet to see hardly any other martial arts school train forms the way they do, for the reasons that they do, from the various interrated systems & styles that they do.
Reply]
Well, maybe if they are doing something a certain way, and everyone else is doing it different...maybe Green Dagon is WRONG!
So it makes perfect sense to me that their performances on the variety of styles that they do goes against the grain & "core thinking" of the mainstream kung fu schools; no big surprise.
Reply]
Of course it goes against the grain of mainstream schools, because they are wrong....are you going to sit there and tell a specialist of a certian style that your melting pot of mish mash is done right, and the specialist is wrong? and you wonder why everyone is so critical of Greendragon?
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 06:48 PM
and you wonder why everyone is so critical of Greendragon?
Where did you get the idea that I "wonder" why most mainstream kung fu-ers are criticial of GD? Careless reader?
Happy trails, though, O Royal One.
:rolleyes:
Royal Dragon
01-16-2007, 07:52 PM
Well, maybe because most are critical of Green Dragon...
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 08:12 PM
Well, maybe because most are critical of Green Dragon
Not quite a sensible response to what I said, eh? English is maybe not your first language?
Either way, RD, it's now very painfully clear that I gave you much more credit than was justified.
My mistake.
;)
lkfmdc
01-16-2007, 08:23 PM
blah!
on one side, you have 99 bak mei schools whose technique all looks the same
on the other side you have green dragon with it's bak mei which looks like all it's other forms
hmmmmmm.... which should you question?
IronWeasel
01-16-2007, 08:35 PM
blah!
on one side, you have 99 bak mei schools whose technique all looks the same
on the other side you have green dragon with it's bak mei which looks like all it's other forms
hmmmmmm.... which should you question?
Okay...I'll bite: who are these Bak Mei schools? I'd like to see what THEIRS looks like.
Where did you learn your Bak Mei?
iron tiger
01-16-2007, 08:37 PM
hmmmmmm.... which should you question?
Ummmmmmmm...the people who say the Earth is flat? Or that it's at the center of the universe, and the Sun and all the other planets go around it? Or the people who say man never really landed on the Moon?
If you get my drift.
Nighty, night, lkf.
:rolleyes:
(Incidentally, the logical error you happen to be guilty of above is: Appeal to "authority.")
lkfmdc
01-16-2007, 08:50 PM
Rev Jones would be proud, now run back to you kewl aid :rolleyes:
IronWeasel
01-16-2007, 09:09 PM
blah!
on one side, you have 99 bak mei schools whose technique all looks the same
on the other side you have green dragon with it's bak mei which looks like all it's other forms
hmmmmmm.... which should you question?
Okay...I'll bite: who are these Bak Mei schools? I'd like to see what THEIRS looks like.
Where did you learn your Bak Mei?
Lama Pai Sifu
01-16-2007, 09:22 PM
Okay...I'll bite: who are these Bak Mei schools? I'd like to see what THEIRS looks like.
Where did you learn your Bak Mei?
Here are some Bok Mei clips that are very good. Although there are always differences from school to school, all these school embodie certain principles, and you'll admit, they all resemble each other pretty closely.
Green Dragon, however, does not even look like anything I've ever seen before. And I don't mean that in a good way. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4dh7p7YU3U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lji8_uf1ljE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAw3UofFo4A&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Gr5ae2EEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmQO-0trvgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjleYT8oSog
These are just a few, you can find plenty on youtube. :)
cjurakpt
01-16-2007, 09:29 PM
Okay...I'll bite: who are these Bak Mei schools? I'd like to see what THEIRS looks like.
pretty good example of what the style looks like...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAw3UofFo4A&mode=related&search=
cjurakpt
01-16-2007, 09:37 PM
Now there is some sweet irony!
;)
where's the irony? last i checked, Dave's claims as to what he knows are based on...gasp...what he actually learned!
anyway, all the GD stuff has pretty much the same flavor - looks very Northern; never mind that from a movement analysis perspective, they are operating out of some very interesting principles (which may just be another example of how GD does everything "different" from everyone else)
Royal Dragon
01-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Except for the first one, all of these were very good.
You can really see the structural alignement, and use of internal power in the movements. watch the back and spine. You can see the connectiveness, and core body really being the source of thier power.
The Green Dragon stuff is all arms, and disconnected. It's not even the same style of motion in any way, shape or form.
The same goes for Green Dragon's Tai Tzu. It's all disconnected, no core body power. They don't even have the basic body structure for Tai Tzu. Thier forms look like a dancer had learned them from a video of a competition, but has no real core understanding of the art...our group has 9 month students who have a better mastery of thier core system.
I can see the Green Dragon guys train real hard and all, but it's pretty much just made them "Really Good at Being Really Bad"
anyway, all the GD stuff has pretty much the same flavor - looks very Northern; never mind that from a movement analysis perspective
Reply]
It's not any Northern looking art I have ever seen.
"Really Good at Being Really Bad" is a trademarked phrase of Monkey slap - used with permission
Akronviper
01-16-2007, 09:58 PM
I think you have to look at the forest through the trees with their stuff. Its a good way to find many different styles at one place and see if it intrests you. Then you can find a teacher in this art. You have to remember this was the eightys way before the web, so finding diffrent styles usaly ment whats in the phone book.
Its a money maker becase no matter how bad it is by the time you know its not the best, your money is gone. The good things they do have is their core style and power excercises (body and palm is the best to come out of there). but even thier best cant be learned from a tape.
You cant really belive that a school could study so many styles and be good at any (student of many, master of none) its just common sense. who is going to be so good that they could teach Mantis, xing yi, shaolin, wing chun..... from a tape. It takes many years just to be decent at just one of the arts let alone 30 or so. Allen isnt superman and I dont belive he's trained with a master in any of these arts just Ong and a dissputed teaching from Wong.
Let the sheep belive what they want, just means that on the street you can defeat them as they use thier authentic art..
Mas Judt
01-17-2007, 01:42 PM
Response to Iron Weasal:
where did I learn Bak mei?
I learned Bak Mei Wu Dip Sau from 'Uncle' Jack Moy in schaumberg IL. Never finished the system, but worked South Mantis (Chu Gar) with another student of his (Who is an exceptional Hakka style teacher). I don't see myself as a Bak Mei expert - but I know the basics of the method, and have encountered multiple other schools such as Sifu Zhang in San Francisco. Oh, and watched plenty at demos I took part in.
The Green Dragon Bak Mei exhibits none of the characteristics of the style as it is practiced by any legitimate Bak Mei school.
It is as much Bak Mei Pai as Mcdonalds is Haute Cuisine.
If you don't like to hear that, just demonstrate your Bak Mei at a legite school, but be careful, as these guys do fight at the drop of a hat.
Mas Judt
01-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Now in true GD practice, I expect them to toss insults at my teacher telling me they did not know anything... :rolleyes:
lkfmdc
01-17-2007, 01:52 PM
only GD knows the "real stuff"... the rest is just "sport bak mei" :rolleyes:
Shaolinlueb
01-17-2007, 02:03 PM
i liked thier southern mantis. at least it was prettier then what is out there now for southern mantis :)
lkfmdc
01-17-2007, 02:06 PM
it was prettier then what is out there now
oh, for sure, pretty is what you need to look for in a CMA
Royal Dragon
01-17-2007, 03:24 PM
i liked thier southern mantis. at least it was prettier then what is out there now for southern mantis
Reply]
What Southern mantis? I heard them talk about it in the clip, but I never saw any. I kept waiting to see some, but there is none on that clip. They just talk about it.
Mas Judt
01-17-2007, 04:23 PM
Based on the tapes I've seen of other stuff, it seems unlikely that they could perform S. Mantis - the mechanics are very different from how the GD guys move.
IronWeasel
01-17-2007, 06:20 PM
Here are some Bok Mei clips that are very good. Although there are always differences from school to school, all these school embodie certain principles, and you'll admit, they all resemble each other pretty closely.
These are just a few, you can find plenty on youtube. :)
Thanks for the info. It's nice change of pace to see some thoughtful commentary (video in this case) instead of the usual drive by bashing.
Ironweasel
IronWeasel
01-17-2007, 06:25 PM
Response to Iron Weasal:
where did I learn Bak mei?
I learned Bak Mei Wu Dip Sau from 'Uncle' Jack Moy in schaumberg IL. Never finished the system, but worked South Mantis (Chu Gar) with another student of his (Who is an exceptional Hakka style teacher). I don't see myself as a Bak Mei expert - but I know the basics of the method, and have encountered multiple other schools such as Sifu Zhang in San Francisco. Oh, and watched plenty at demos I took part in.
The Green Dragon Bak Mei exhibits none of the characteristics of the style as it is practiced by any legitimate Bak Mei school.
It is as much Bak Mei Pai as Mcdonalds is Haute Cuisine.
If you don't like to hear that, just demonstrate your Bak Mei at a legite school, but be careful, as these guys do fight at the drop of a hat.
Well it's nice to hear an opinion from an actual student of the style, instead of six MMA guys.
Thanks,
Ironweasel
IronWeasel
01-17-2007, 06:26 PM
Now in true GD practice, I expect them to toss insults at my teacher telling me they did not know anything... :rolleyes:
And there's the drive by...
lkfmdc
01-17-2007, 06:39 PM
Well it's nice to hear an opinion from an actual student of the style, instead of six MMA guys.
me - my sifu - chan seung dik - cheung lai chung
but I'm just a MMA guy :rolleyes:
Shaolinlueb
01-17-2007, 08:41 PM
oh, for sure, pretty is what you need to look for in a CMA
duh!!! who cares about the effectiveness, not like anyone actually knows how to train applications these days. as long as my arms flale around in circles. :p ;) :D
Mas Judt
01-17-2007, 09:49 PM
No drive by. One the tools from ohio kept writing snotty letters to IKf, and when they could not win with logic or facts, they resort to 'my teacher knows your teacher. His only claim to fame is big library of books' or some such cr@p. THAT stupidity was caused by cries of 'racism' on the part of the Chinese teachers not recognizing the greatness of the GD & GC.
Well, watching the GD tapes, I'm prety sure 'racism' was the least of the things inhibiting thier 'recognition.'
iron tiger
01-18-2007, 01:48 PM
The Green Dragon stuff is all arms, and disconnected
Hmmm. Not taught that way at all, in fact they are constantly correcting students who are "all arms" (often due to a boxing background, eg) or lacking coordination among body parts (esp. not using the legs). I wonder if there's just a difference in perceiving what's going on in the varying performance examples; I don't see "all arms" and "disconnectedness" at all in the GD tapes.
In fact, I don't really see those traits in most schools' performances. It's a lack of power coupled with a perceived (and experiential when doing drills with some of their students) lack of comprehension of the combat principles.
Anyway, maybe my goals were just different than the typical prospect when I started off. The upshot was, it quickly became clear that the common, "mainstream" kung fu schools' approaches were NOT going to help me achieve those goals. Green Dragon's methods did/are still doing it.
Caveats: As I already said in a previous post, GD tapes are probably not the best for absolute beginners. It's hard learning off tape. But they themselves pointed this out (tape? one of Allen's IKF articles?) at some point. And they do (or at least would at one time) recommend schools in one's area who in their opinion follow the same training philosophies & philosophies.
2. Again, monster strength/power programs like Stone Warrior or even the Iron Buddha strength set are very hard to do for people who haven't accustomed themselves to knowing how to apply, and sustain, proper tension for the duration of the daily performance on these things. If you have an interest in giving these things an honest shot, take this into account and don't be afraid to gradually orient yourself into them with less demanding things like the Snake Turns Over or the No Lick Kuen, which will still give you good results while setting you up for the much more challenging things that are out there.
Nice chatting here with some of you guys, and good luck with your own training goals.
(bow out)
Royal Dragon
01-18-2007, 02:09 PM
Hmmm. Not taught that way at all, in fact they are constantly correcting students who are "all arms" (often due to a boxing background, eg) or lacking coordination among body parts (esp. not using the legs). I wonder if there's just a difference in perceiving what's going on in the varying performance examples; I don't see "all arms" and "disconnectedness" at all in the GD tapes
Reply]
Oh dear lord......:rolleyes:
The seniors are the ones doing the tapes, they are some of the most disjointed, unconnected "All Arms" *Performers* I have ever seen. They are as bad as OYD.
If they got actual corrections in thier form, structure, and mechanics, the *Seniors* who are demonstraiting on these tapes would show it..and they clearly don't...
2. Again, monster strength/power programs like Stone Warrior or even the Iron Buddha strength set are very hard to do for people who haven't accustomed themselves to knowing how to apply, and sustain, proper tension for the duration of the daily performance on these things.
Reply]
That is why most people lift weights. You get better "Monster" strength results with only 20-30 minutes of work, 3 X a week...
If you add 20 minutes of a dynamic tension set like SanZhen to the end of your 20 minutes of weights, you get the body hardening too...with 40 minutes of work 3X a week...
Now you can use all that extra time to work skills....or God forbid...some fundementals...
MonkeyKingUSA
01-18-2007, 02:13 PM
Iron Tiger,
Though I either know or at least have met all the principle players in the Akron area, I have never had the opportunity to meet Sifu Allen. I hope someday to have that opportunity.
The only videos I have seen from the Green Dragon group were the Eight Immortals and Northern Monkey videos that I borrowed from one of my students. Since I have no expertise in the Eight Immortal sets I have little frame of reference for comparison. However, the Northern Monkey set, though very different from the Monkey sets our group practices, was nicely done. The applications were excellent and similar to how we interpret Monkey boxing. I don't know what my student paid for the video, but I thought it was put together well. Several camera angles of the sets, and easy to understand applications made for a nice viewing experience. :)
Richard A. Tolson
lkfmdc
01-18-2007, 02:45 PM
in fact they are constantly correcting students who are "all arms" (often due to a boxing background, eg)
you don't know much about western boxing, do you? :rolleyes:
Royal Dragon
01-18-2007, 03:10 PM
lkfmdc,
I was going to say the same thing, but I myself don't have much boxing experiance.
iron tiger
01-18-2007, 04:41 PM
Time for a quick p.s.---
you don't know much about western boxing, do you
Anybody who's been around Western boxing much at all, especially from a training standpoint, who has a lick of sense & insight usually figures out pretty fast that probably at least 90% (conservative number there) of people who get into boxing really never learn how to use the legs to generate more power for their punches; all arm and shoulder.
Same holds true for all kinds of other Western sports: few baseball players other than pitchers throw very effectively from the legs (you see this a lot in athletes who try to throw the javelin; all arm & shoulder, not many who throw WITH the legs), most use all arm to wing a football, etc.
Even more so are *most* (and 90% would be low) people who get into the martial arts. Almost all of them never learn to punch from the legs effectively, or how to coordinate their upper & lower body while maneuvering as they maintain the principles of attack and defense that their forms are designed around; except sometimes when they're doing some kind of drill, in the gym or dojo or wherever, and *outside* of a real fighting situation where the opponent is honestly trying to hurt them.
They start fighting and immediately go into sport mode. The forms work, etc, becoming practically nonexistent & next to completely meaningless. Especially the longer the fight goes on (remember, the old Chinese used a half-second model!); just watch them---you will see what I mean. Especially if you have a chance to look at Green Dragon's '3 techniques from 12 styles' tape: that's pretty close to what Chinese fighting is supposed to look like...like it or not.
So I'm not surprised that the real basis for the analogy went right over lkf's head; he obviously doesn't know much at all about Western boxing from the standpoint of the typical boxer.
The seniors are the ones doing the tapes, they are some of the most disjointed, unconnected "All Arms" *Performers* I have ever seen. ..If they got actual corrections in thier form, structure, and mechanics, the *Seniors* who are demonstraiting on these tapes would show it..and they clearly don't
This is the reaction of the typical mainstream kung fu guy. What is obvious is that he really has no idea at all what he is seeing: no understanding of the half-second paradigm (which involves a number of strategic & tactical objectives the fighter is required to carry out in a half-second or less; good senior students get more of them done faster, but 1/2 sec. is the max to be in the Chinese paradigm. Ong was amazing at this, Chang quite simply mind-blowing in what he could do) and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.
Just go to any tournament and see: no matter how these guys claim they train, when they get into a fight, it's 99.9% sport-style techniques, Western boxing or wrestling (or karate) maneuvering, etc.
The very few exceptions of guys who've done okay fighting are people who do it with no Chinese (I don't mean the mainstream approach that they don't know is incorrect because they've usually never seen it correctly done) techniques to really speak of and, regardless, would've been pretty good fighters no matter what kind of school they came through; ie it isn't really the kung fu---the forms work, the power programs, the maneuvering drills, etc---that is the cause of the success in any meaningful way at all.
One of the many, many things I appreciated about Green Dragon was that as we were taught how to do things from the classical Chinese standpoint, they also always taught how other schools did things--and WHY (or why not)--so we could understand the sometimes severe limitations in many of those (sport style, or, a lot of times, artsy-****sy) approaches; not just theoretically or in a dismissive, belittling way, but from a solid practical side in terms of health or, especially---they are the martial arts, afterall---combat applications & fighting; ie consequences.
One final side note (that I keep forgetting to add): when you're doing a real internal Chinese power program (building chi for use in health & fighting) the way you're supposed to, there is a lot going on inside you that you might not be able to feel or perceive for quite awhile---depends how hard you're working, how much time per day, # of reps, etc---especially when you're doing something that's mostly external in its design, or, even when you're doing something that's 100% internal! But it is going on! Some people get discouraged and give up WAY too soon, like with the Snake Turns Over they never even really get halfway through the program (which is sometime in the 70s in terms of reps) and stop. You gotta hang in there and work 'em!
You get better "Monster" strength results with only 20-30 minutes of work, 3 X a week...
Wrong. Although some strength gains happen more quickly using weights. But, as I've already said before (and people like RD ignore because they have no real experience with Chinese power training at all, as the Chinese used to actually do it), in the long run things like Stone Warrior take you FAR past anyplace weights would have, especially from a CMA perspective.
Because they really will build up & circulate the chi for use in fighting & health; if you do them the way you are supposed to.
Don't cheat on the tension or skip days or stop just because your hands are cramping or are fatigued to the point you can't make a fist 100% right (though you do your best to maintain proper form at all times) or let yourself ride up too high in your stance, like most Western approaches to exercise teach you. The common Western approach to things like these just won't work at all for some of these things, particularly the better things.
I have never had the opportunity to meet Sifu Allen. I hope someday to have that opportunity
I really hope you get that chance, King; I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised once he sees you're humble, sincere, and respectful. The man knows his stuff, and he's had a major, and positive, impact on a lot of peoples' lives that goes far beyond just the Chinese martial arts training.
Gotta go, have fun, but work hard, in your training, guys.
lkfmdc
01-18-2007, 05:09 PM
Anybody who's been around Western boxing much at all, especially from a training standpoint, who has a lick of sense & insight usually figures out pretty fast that probably at least 90% (conservative number there) of people who get into boxing really never learn how to use the legs to generate more power for their punches; all arm and shoulder.
Let me correct what I wrote, you know NOTHING about western boxing :rolleyes:
iron tiger
01-18-2007, 05:20 PM
Let me correct what I wrote, you know NOTHING about western boxing
Not even worth a response anymore.
The good news is, a few other people are starting to figure out that lkf & RD don't really have much at all of any substance to say.
So thanks, lkf, it's appreciated!
;)
lkfmdc
01-18-2007, 05:23 PM
Dude, I'll be blunt, you come off as the guy who has only trained kung fu in one school and simply spouts the crap his one teacher told him :rolleyes:
It's correct, there is no point responding to you, the content of your posts demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about.
Royal Dragon
01-18-2007, 05:29 PM
I just noticed that Iron Tiger writes exactly the way Allen talks on the Tai Tzu tapes I have.........
Anybody who's been around Western boxing much at all, especially from a training standpoint, who has a lick of sense & insight usually figures out pretty fast that probably at least 90% (conservative number there) of people who get into boxing really never learn how to use the legs to generate more power for their punches; all arm and shoulder.
Reply]
You know, I may not have much boxing experiance myself, but comming from Chicago, I HAVE crossed hands with boxers before. I never met one that was only hsoulders. Boxers have full body mechancis and power generation. You are reveling your ignorance wiht the above comments.
>>Same holds true for all kinds of other Western sports: few baseball players other than pitchers throw very effectively from the legs (you see this a lot in athletes who try to throw the javelin; all arm & shoulder, not many who throw WITH the legs), most use all arm to wing a football, etc.
Even more so are *most* (and 90% would be low) people who get into the martial arts. Almost all of them never learn to punch from the legs, except sometimes when they're doing some kind of drill, in the gym or dojo or wherever, and *outside* of a real fighting situation where the opponent is trying to hurt them.
Reply]
You don't get out of your Green Dragon cave much do you?
>>They start fighting and immediately go into sport mode. The forms work, etc, becoming practically nonexistent & next to completely meaningless.
Reply]
Hmm, maybe I have seen much better Kung Fu than you?
So I'm not surprised that the real basis for the analogy went right over lkf's head; he obviously doesn't know much at all about Western boxing from the standpoint of the typical boxer.
Reply]
:rolleyes:
Quote:
The seniors are the ones doing the tapes, they are some of the most disjointed, unconnected "All Arms" *Performers* I have ever seen. ..If they got actual corrections in thier form, structure, and mechanics, the *Seniors* who are demonstraiting on these tapes would show it..and they clearly don't
This is the reaction of the typical mainstream kung fu guy.
Reply]
No, this is the reaction of someone who has been in the martial arts since 1989, and has seen some really darn good Kung Fu.
What is obvious is that he really has no idea at all what he is seeing:
Reply]
You got that right....I don't know what that cluster **** of a demo was that I saw on the Green Dragon tapes. No sense of proper body structure, or alignment. I mean, it made me cringe watching it. It was the worst Tai Tzu I have ever seen...and ditto for the GD links posted in this thread.
no understanding of the half-second paradigm (which involves a number of strategic & tactical objectives the fighter is required to carry out in a half-second or less; good senior students get more of them done faster, but 1/2 sec. is the max to be in the Chinese paradigm. Ong was amazing at this, Chang quite simply mind-blowing in what he could do) and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.
Reply]
Allen, if you had even a half baked idea of what you are talking about, you would easily be able to see from the horrible skelital alignment of your students, that you don't know anything about Chinese power generation yourself, and thearfore have not imparted it to them.
Just go to any tournament and see: no matter how these guys claim they train, when they get into a fight, it's 99.9% sport-style techniques, Western (or karate) maneuvering, etc.
Reply]
I have not really noticed that myself. So far Kung Fu guys move, and fight like Kung Fu guys. In Chicago we have a generation of gus who all came from a Karate background, and THEY fight like you described, but everyone else fights pretty much how they train.
The very few exceptions of guys who've done okay fighting are people who do it with no Chinese (I don't mean the mainstream approach that they don't know is incorrect because they've usually never seen it correctly done) techniques to really speak of and, regardless, would've been pretty good fighters no matter what kind of school they came through; ie it isn't really the kung fu---the forms work, the power programs, the maneuvering drills, etc---that is the cause of the success hardly at all.
Reply]
You know, you can watch San Shou/Sanda and Kuo Shou and see plenty of real Chinese Kung Fu in action. I don't know where you have been hideing, but I think it's time you step out of the 1970's Karate trounaments you seem to be stuck in,and see how much really good Kung Fu has made it's way to the US in the last 30 years.
One of the many, many things I appreciated about Green Dragon was that as we were taught how to do things from the classical Chinese standpoint,
Reply]
If that is so, why do your student arch thier backs so much? Why do they expand thier chests, and pull back ther shoulders? Why do they stick thier butts out so much? I mean, its not that they just fail the proper *Classical Chinese* requirements, they actually go as far as they can in the OPPOSITE direction. How can you expect anyone to buy the load you are shoveling when the vids of your students, with every structural flaw and violation of correct Chinese principals there is, are right there for everyone to see?
they also always taught how other schools did things so we could understand the limitations in many of those approaches; not just theoretically or in a dismissive, derisive way, but from a practical side in terms of health or, especially---they are the martial arts, afterall---combat applications & fighting.
Reply]
Something tells me you were not taught how other schools did anything....
One final note that I keep forgetting to add: when you're doing a real internal Chinese power program (building chi for use in health & fighting) the way you're supposed to, there is a lot going on inside you that you might not be able to feel for quite awhile---depends how hard you're working, how much time per day, etc---especially when you're doing something that's mostly external in its design. But it is going on! Some people get discouraged and give up WAY too soon, like with the Snake Turns Over they never even really get halfway through the program (which is sometime in the 70s in terms of reps) and stop. You gotta hang in there and work 'em!
Reply]
Like I have said, I have done dynamic tension set before, for quite a long time....your *Stone Warrior* is nothing special. It's the same as SanZhen in it's effects on the body.
Quote:
You get better "Monster" strength results with only 20-30 minutes of work, 3 X a week...
Wrong. Although some strength gains happen more quickly using weights. But, as I've already said before (and people like RD ignore because they have no real experience with Chinese power training at all, as the Chinese used to actually do it), in the long run things like Stone Warrior take you FAR past anyplace weights would have, especially from a CMA perspective.
Reply]
Sorry dude, you are wrong...
Because they really will build up & circulate the chi for use in fighting & health.
Reply]
So does anything you do that builds muscles, and cardio...
Don't cheat on the tension or skip days or stop just because your hands are cramping or are fatigued to the point you can't make a fist 100% right (though you do your best to maintain proper form at all times) or let yourself ride up too high in your stance, like most Western approaches to exercise teach you. The common Western approach to things like these just won't work at all for some of these things, particularly the better things.
Reply]
We are not talking *Western* Approaches here, we are talking Chinese. The CORE of Chinese Kung Fu is in the body mechancis. Strength of those mechanics is important too, but the essence is the mechanics themselves.
The mechancis of *Chinese* martial arts is based on a certian structure of skelital alignment, which is not only totaly lacking in the SENIORS of Green Dragon, it is readily apparent that they worked very hard to develop themselves in the OOPOSITE direction, to the point where every possible flaw one could fine is magnifed to a great degree (Backs arched, chest out, shoulder back, butt out - all WRONG for Chinese Kung Fu)
Quote:
I have never had the opportunity to meet Sifu Allen. I hope someday to have that opportunity
I really hope you get that chance, King; I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised once he sees you're humble, sincere, and respectful. The man knows his stuff, and he's had a major, and positive, impact on a lot of peoples' lives that goes far beyond just the Chinese martial arts training.
Gotta go, have fun, but work hard, in your training, guys.
Reply]
Umm Ok Allen.....
Oh, just a note, if you are gong to pretend you are someone besides yourself, to prop yourself up, try writing in a style that ISN'T exactly like you talk.....
Royal Dragon
01-18-2007, 05:32 PM
Really, Allen your Kung Fu is as bad as my spelling and typeing...stop arguing with us and go find a good teacher!.
iron tiger
01-18-2007, 05:33 PM
If I'm remembering it correctly, I think the appropriate response to the last three posts goes something like, "I am rubber and you are glue..."
And sorry, RoyalD, I ain't Allen. But thanks for the compliment.
:D
Golden Arms
01-18-2007, 05:50 PM
Without reading the whole thread, but a decent part of it I have the following to say about the videos I saw:
The performances were OK in that the people seemed to have decent flexibility, athleticism and balance.
The body mechanics were poor to alright, but nothing I would put down as something to aspire to learn.
I cant speak of the actual styles, because the only one I have heavy experience with, variants and all, is Hung Gar, and I am reasonably sure that I saw no Hung in there, unless I am mistaken. So who knows, maybe that is what Northern Kung Fu looks like, or maybe not, I have definately seen worse at tournaments in forms performances. Overall, it was just exceedingly average, but I cant quite pinpoint what didnt feel right about it. Was there any Hung in there?
SifuAbel
01-18-2007, 06:01 PM
Really, Allen your Kung Fu is as bad as my spelling and typeing...stop arguing with us and go find a good teacher!.
Dude, I'm BEGGING you. Use the QUOTE /QUOTE in brackets []
PLEASE!!!!
Royal Dragon
01-18-2007, 07:39 PM
Never!! :d
Umm Ok Allen.....
Oh, just a note, if you are gong to pretend you are someone besides yourself, to prop yourself up, try writing in a style that ISN'T exactly like you talk.....
Is it really John Allen? :confused:
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 04:31 AM
first, I'd like to ask about what exactly is the difference between "Chinese" and "Western" posture and mechanics? as far as I can tell, while the way in which the descriptions of how to get to the proper dynamic alignment are different (Chinese descriptions tend to be somewhat more metaphorical), the desired end result is the same; the whole "ancient Chinese secret" schtick is just a lot of mumbo to try to put someone off when they see something that looks strange: the body is the body - there is nothing more secret or occult about body mechanics that the Chinese have figured out that other's have not, and that is a fact;
that said, from any perspective, the alignment and integration of the performers is essentially non-existant (and spare me the "you don't know what you're looking at" schtick: I know exactly what I am looking at, from a variety of pespecives); I don't know (or care) about any sort of 1/2 second rule (and if this is a classical Chinese concept, please give the characters for that particular saying...in fact, are you capable of stating ANYTHING in Chinese at all, since you repeatedly claim that you are studying a classical system - I don't know of ANYONE who has studied a classical system who hadn't learned at least some principles, concepts in the original language...)
I pray that the days of "this is so super secret that you could never hope to understand it" are almost over - the sooner people get real about things like "internal training" and realize that it can be very nicely described in a non-mumbo jumbo context, the sooner we will be rid of guys like Iron Tiger...
iron tiger
01-19-2007, 09:45 AM
Don't see where anyone said anything about anything being 'secret' let alone 'super secret.'
But it's a fact that many Chinese teachers held back some of the more "unconventional" training methods even after the decision had been made by some of them to teach non-Chinese back in the ca. mid-60s.
Ong, for example, died without passing on a lot of what he actually knew.
The hard work & humility provisos keep the majority of other contemporary kung fu students from ever accessing some of the "super secret" info that has been made available in a very small handful of schools.
Didn't say "all boxers fail to punch from the legs" etc, nor was "all" ever meant to mean "a subset of all people who box" et al.
But it's a fact that some of the skills overviewed (ie pitchers & javelin throwers driving from the legs, good boxers, et al) require more time & work to achieve than the handful of practice sessions many people seem to believe are needed.
And there are schools out there training the internal (ie chi) side of the arts no matter what you may care to believe.
there is nothing more secret or occult about body mechanics that the Chinese have figured out that other's have not
The problem is that so few people actually use many of the more technical, in terms of body mechanics, insights the Chinese pioneered and utilized. You very rarely see many of these kinds of things occuring in Western sports, and when you do it's most often in the more highly technical events like Olympic weight lifting or track's field events. Certainly not in MA combat tournaments nowadays.
And it's a fact that fighters like Feemon Ong and Tung Shen Chang had more going on than mere 'body mechanics' when they trained & fought.
the sooner we will be rid of...Iron Tiger
That is not a problem at all. Peculiar that this would be an issue for you, though, rather than just ignoring the thread; when the content is actually read carefully at all.
Is it really John Allen?
Amazing.
(Final bow out)
:)
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 01:44 PM
(remember, the old Chinese used a half-second model!)
could you please provide some sort of citation / reference to this? if it is in fact an old Chinese concept, there ought to be some sort of aphorism stating it
if you have a chance to look at Green Dragon's '3 techniques from 12 styles' tape: that's pretty close to what Chinese fighting is supposed to look like...like it or not.
"supposed" to look like? man, you have bought into the whole schtick hook, line and sinker - Chinese fighting isn't "supposed" to look like anything except the guy who wins walking away in one piece as much as possible
This is the reaction of the typical mainstream kung fu guy. What is obvious is that he really has no idea at all what he is seeing: no understanding of the half-second paradigm (which involves a number of strategic & tactical objectives the fighter is required to carry out in a half-second or less; good senior students get more of them done faster, but 1/2 sec. is the max to be in the Chinese paradigm.
again, what is the reference source for this? what style espoused this? wht are the characters for this?
Ong was amazing at this, Chang quite simply mind-blowing in what he could do)
against compliant, non-resisting opponents, I;m sure they looked awesome...
and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.
ok, again, what are these "principles"? every style that I know of that is CMA that has a list of principles will have a series of key sayings or words: for example, the taichi I practice has our "10 Principles" that talk about alignment, structure, movement, etc. - I can name them, write them, etc. - why can't you, if you are so well versed in your system?
The very few exceptions of guys who've done okay fighting are people who do it with no Chinese (I don't mean the mainstream approach that they don't know is incorrect because they've usually never seen it correctly done) techniques to really speak of and, regardless, would've been pretty good fighters no matter what kind of school they came through; ie it isn't really the kung fu---the forms work, the power programs, the maneuvering drills, etc---that is the cause of the success in any meaningful way at all.
this is almost incoherent - are you saying that some people are natural fighters no matter what they do? if so, I agree, which further illustrates my point that there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
One of the many, many things I appreciated about Green Dragon was that as we were taught how to do things from the classical Chinese standpoint,
so, you must have learned some Tao Te Ching? I Ching? the Sun Tzu? what EXACTLY makes what you learned "classical"?
they also always taught how other schools did things--and WHY (or why not)--so we could understand the sometimes severe limitations in many of those (sport style, or, a lot of times, artsy-****sy) approaches; not just theoretically or in a dismissive, belittling way, but from a solid practical side in terms of health or, especially---they are the martial arts, afterall---combat applications & fighting; ie consequences.
gimmie a break - the ol' "why we are better than everyone else" routine - if you haven't figured out the inherent fallacy of this construct, you are so far gone as to barely be worth the trouble pointing it out to...
One final side note (that I keep forgetting to add): when you're doing a real internal Chinese power program (building chi for use in health & fighting) the way you're supposed to, there is a lot going on inside you that you might not be able to feel or perceive for quite awhile---
total BS - a nice way to lead on the trusting nervous beginner - like the Emperor's clothes, you prey on someone's insecurities - let me guess - the instructors knew better than the student what was happening inside them, right? total cr@pola - it's the same schtick a lot of energy healer types pull on patiens - totally unethical and bogus; you obviously have no idea of what constitutes "real" internal - not from a Chinese perspective, not from a western one either, otherwise you would know better than to say something as ridiculous as that;
Wrong. Although some strength gains happen more quickly using weights. But, as I've already said before (and people like RD ignore because they have no real experience with Chinese power training at all, as the Chinese used to actually do it), in the long run things like Stone Warrior take you FAR past anyplace weights would have, especially from a CMA perspective.
why? what is so special about doing something without weights versus with weights? muscle physiolog is pretty specific, and depending how you train, specific things happen - isometric versus isokinetic, etc. - you get neurological (the initial boost is due to increased neural recruitment, not hypertrophy) and then fiber changes, in that order, and that's it - and again, you make this general statement about how the Chinese do it - which Chinese? how can you possibly presume to lump the entire country into this? ludicrous
Don't see where anyone said anything about anything being 'secret' let alone 'super secret.' But it's a fact that many Chinese teachers held back some of the more "unconventional" training methods even after the decision had been made by some of them to teach non-Chinese back in the ca. mid-60s.
who? which teachers? how do you know this? a total generalized, unbsubstantiated BS comment if ever there was one - some probably held stuff back, but beyond that, you can't say for sure unless you know something specific, which I doubt you do
Ong, for example, died without passing on a lot of what he actually knew.
how do you know this? if he died without passing it on, then theoretically you wouldn't know it existed - unless he said something on his deathbed to that effect? more BS...
The hard work & humility provisos keep the majority of other contemporary kung fu students from ever accessing some of the "super secret" info that has been made available in a very small handful of schools.
my point is that, intrinsically, there is no such thing as "super secret", except what some one tells you is "super secret" - I mean, someone, somewhere had to discover the info at one point, so obviously anyone else has the same potential...and again, you make a very generalized unsubtantiable statement that is remeniscent of '70's KF Theater mumbo - which "small handful" of schools? be specific if you want to make statement that we should take as credible
And there are schools out there training the internal (ie chi) side of the arts no matter what you may care to believe.
yes, there are - but what is "chi"? it's not some mystical force - it's simply a metaphorical decription of the net set of functional interrelationships in the body, including musculoskeletal, neurological, vascular, lymphatic, digestive, endocrine, circadian, connective tissue, emotional, etc. - and it also relates to the efect of the external environment as well - weather, food, terrain, planetary, gravitational etc. - if you think chi is somesort of independently existing magical energy, you're living in a fantasy land; and being such as it is, anyone can cultivate it in any number of ways, as well as independently arrive at more subtle ways of doing so, provided they spend the time listening a bit more closely to themselves
The problem is that so few people actually use many of the more technical, in terms of body mechanics, insights the Chinese pioneered and utilized.
bull c@p - there are many other cultures that approach body mechanics that have done so well before or at least at the same time and independently: take a little look at physical culture history of Greece, Egypt, Persia and India for starters and their is plenty of evidence to that effect
And it's a fact that fighters like Feemon Ong and Tung Shen Chang had more going on than mere 'body mechanics' when they trained & fought.
total BS: what do you mean "mere" body mechanics? your characterization of body mechnics as being somehow inferior to somethng else (there is nothing else, sorry) belies your bias; there is no evidence of your notion that there is somesort of extraordinary, paranormal component to traiing, fighting, etc. that you guys think exists; and BTW, when / where did either of these guys fight? and against whom? 30 years ago, maybe they took on a bunch of hypnotized kung-fooey types, but I suspect that their "special" training wouldn't do much for them in todays MA environment...
That is not a problem at all. Peculiar that this would be an issue for you, though, rather than just ignoring the thread; when the content is actually read carefully at all.
the content is read very carefully, and the outcome is that you have a tremendous propensity to overgeneralize, cite as fact highly non-specific information, and have a fantastical, romantic notion of what constitues things like "internal" training;
Amazing. (Final bow out)
THAT would be amazing...
Judge Pen
01-19-2007, 03:19 PM
I haven't read this thread in a while, but the following quotes from cjurakpt are some of the best, most concise statements regarding CMA fighting and the definition of chi that I've seen in the 4 years I've frequented this forum. Really good stuff.
Fighting:
"supposed" to look like? man, you have bought into the whole schtick hook, line and sinker - Chinese fighting isn't "supposed" to look like anything except the guy who wins walking away in one piece as much as possible
and Chi:
yes, there are - but what is "chi"? it's not some mystical force - it's simply a metaphorical decription of the net set of functional interrelationships in the body, including musculoskeletal, neurological, vascular, lymphatic, digestive, endocrine, circadian, connective tissue, emotional, etc. - and it also relates to the efect of the external environment as well - weather, food, terrain, planetary, gravitational etc. - if you think chi is somesort of independently existing magical energy, you're living in a fantasy land; and being such as it is, anyone can cultivate it in any number of ways, as well as independently arrive at more subtle ways of doing so, provided they spend the time listening a bit more closely to themselves
Akronviper
01-19-2007, 03:20 PM
total BS:...... BTW, when / where did either of these guys fight? and against whom? 30 years ago, maybe they took on a bunch of hypnotized kung-fooey types, but I suspect that their "special" training wouldn't do much for them in todays MA environment...
cjurakpt, to question Grandmaster Tung Sheng Ch'angs ability shows that you have no knowledge of this subject at all. Do some research, to question his abilitys then and now (if he was alive) is to say the Roman empire was a joke, Gangus Kahn would be a wuss today, Alexander the Great would not be so great now because they all fought a bunch a of hypnotized farmers..
BTW: To lump Ong and Chang into the same statement is an insult to Chang.
IronWeasel
01-19-2007, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;732774]
"supposed" to look like? man, you have bought into the whole schtick hook, line and sinker - Chinese fighting isn't "supposed" to look like anything except the guy who wins walking away in one piece as much as possible
Schtick? Do you think that a fight btw two joes on the street would look the same as two trained chinese stylists? By "look" he may be referring to the tactics and techniques employed.
again, what is the reference source for this? what style espoused this? wht are the characters for this?
I read: "Someone please teach me some Kung Fu."
there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
I cannot disagree more. There are several advantages.
who? which teachers? how do you know this? a total generalized, unbsubstantiated BS comment if ever there was one - some probably held stuff back, but beyond that, you can't say for sure unless you know something specific, which I doubt you do
This reads: Prove everything to me, or I refuse to believe.
maybe they took on a bunch of hypnotized kung-fooey types,
Such denial here...ALL just bashing...
QUOTE]
Royal Dragon
01-19-2007, 04:34 PM
there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
I cannot disagree more. There are several advantages.
Reply]
Unfortunetly green dragon does not show any chinese body mechanics.
IronWeasel
01-19-2007, 05:00 PM
there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
I cannot disagree more. There are several advantages.
Reply]
Unfortunetly green dragon does not show any chinese body mechanics.
If you're a student of Chinses martial arts you should be able to name a few advantages yourself. Don't just use a one-liner to Troll against Green Dragon...
I'm talking about CMA in general.
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 05:46 PM
cjurakpt, to question Grandmaster Tung Sheng Ch'angs ability shows that you have no knowledge of this subject at all. Do some research, to question his abilitys then and now (if he was alive) is to say the Roman empire was a joke, Gangus Kahn would be a wuss today, Alexander the Great would not be so great now because they all fought a bunch a of hypnotized farmers..
first off, you are not incorrect - I have very little personal knowledge of GM TSC - but that's all the more reason to question - that is, someone makes a statement regarding his supposed extraordinary abilities (he fought with more than "mere" body mechanics - whatever the heck that means - and was ubelieveable, inscutable, unsurpassable, whatever - if someone is going to say that so-and-so was a great fighter, then it behoves them to provide some evidence to that effect; and to suggest that he is above questioning, that is the mark of a true zealot...
anyway, provide some info beyond opinion and conjecture (c.f. - when someone quetions Chan Tai Shan's capacity, there are actual events to which one can point - Ross is the archivist, he can give you specifics) - if he was so amazing, then there would have to be specific instances where he demonstrated it to / with peole who weren't his students who were really trying to hurt him; if he was so famous, there should be evidence of that; BTW, as for my doing research - you are the ones making the claims: back them up if you don't want to be questioned
as for your ridicuous analogy to the above mentioned historical figures: if in 2,000 years, anyone remembers who the heck GM TSC was, then I would certainly concede him in the same class as Rome, Ghengis and Alex; but you and I both know that will not be the case, so please spare me the comparison;
BTW: To lump Ong and Chang into the same statement is an insult to Chang.
I don't know anything about one relative to the other and don't really care; but the same goes for Ong as well
IronWeasel
01-19-2007, 06:32 PM
first off, you are not incorrect - I have very little personal knowledge of GM TSC - but that's all the more reason to question - that is, someone makes a statement regarding his supposed extraordinary abilities (he fought with more than "mere" body mechanics - whatever the heck that means - and was ubelieveable, inscutable, unsurpassable, whatever - if someone is going to say that so-and-so was a great fighter, then it behoves them to provide some evidence to that effect; and to suggest that he is above questioning, that is the mark of a true zealot...
anyway, provide some info beyond opinion and conjecture (c.f. - when someone quetions Chan Tai Shan's capacity, there are actual events to which one can point - Ross is the archivist, he can give you specifics) - if he was so amazing, then there would have to be specific instances where he demonstrated it to / with peole who weren't his students who were really trying to hurt him; if he was so famous, there should be evidence of that; BTW, as for my doing research - you are the ones making the claims: back them up if you don't want to be questioned
Don't just sit there waiting for us to spoon feed you. Do some research, my man...Chang is quite famous. Google...
Royal Dragon
01-19-2007, 06:35 PM
If you're a student of Chinses martial arts you should be able to name a few advantages yourself. Don't just use a one-liner to Troll against Green Dragon...
I'm talking about CMA in general.
Reply]
Ok, as to advantages, I think that it's just more of a Chinese like to do things thier way, and others prefer to do things according to thier own methods more than what is better, or more advantagous.
As for what Chinese structure and mechanics are:
First off, the body is held with the tail bone tucked, shoulders rounded, chest sunk and back straight. It is very simialr to the "Hollow" position a Gymnast uses, and also seen in high level boxers and MMA fighters. This aligns the body so the skeletal system is positioned with the greatest possible mechanical advantage in realtion to the opponent.
Power is generated by opening, and closeing Qua. Arms move in conjunction with the legs, one thing moves, everything moves. This unity of motion gives the effect of making the whole body one huge muscle in action, and allows much greater strength to be issued, in a much shorter space of movement (No wind up needed).
The internal styles take it a few steps further by adding a vertical expansion/contraction motion similar to an accordion. This has a power multiplying effect on power generated by the Qua, arms, and legs (and is uniquely Chinese as far as I can see).
In order for this method of movement to work, The body structure must be as described. If the skeleton is out of alignment in anyway, it throws it all off as you loose the leverage and connections.
Green Dragon's skeletal alignment is in total opposition to what is needed. They don't tuck the tail bone, infact they go the opposite direction and stick it out. They don't round the shoulders, they go the opposite, and pull them back. They don't sink the chest, they go the opposite and puff it out. Their back is not straight, and aligned, instead it is actually arched and not even neutral. It's like all the BASIC principals of fundemental Chinese body and skelital alignment is not only not there, but it seems they have worked real hard to do the exact opposite of what is required. Thearfore, they can't, and don't have the "Classical Chinese mechanics". As they claim.
One only needs to see the clips of the Bak Mei posted earlier in this thread to see what the "Classical Structure & Mechanics" are, and then compare to the Green Dragon demo clip to see the difference.
Green Dragon goes on, and on and do talk a good game about how they do the "Classical Chinese" thing, but when you actually LOOK at what they do, everything is all wrong. This is why everyone says they suck.
I hope this answers your question.
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 06:42 PM
"supposed" to look like? man, you have bought into the whole schtick hook, line and sinker - Chinese fighting isn't "supposed" to look like anything except the guy who wins walking away in one piece as much as possible
Schtick? Do you think that a fight btw two joes on the street would look the same as two trained chinese stylists? By "look" he may be referring to the tactics and techniques employed.
no, that's not what I am saying: that's the difference between untrained and trained fighters; the difference between trained CMA stylists and trained MA from other styles won't look as different, because the principles that will make one successful in a fight are the same across the board - there may be differences in technique, but then you certainly can't lump ALL CMA under the rubrick of "Chinese fighting" - to say that a Ba Gua fighter will look anything like a Hung Ga fighter is absurd (although given the generic way in which GD does their forms, it wouldn't be surprising if you did): they would look as different as a Bok Mei from a karate fighter - if there is the same degree of differentiation within CMA, you certainly can't use the analogy successfully between CMA and othere MA
again, what is the reference source for this? what style espoused this? wht are the characters for this?
I read: "Someone please teach me some Kung Fu."
are you really that stupid or just faking it? do you REALLY think that is my agenda? why can't you answer a simple question, one that anybody from a legitamate system would be able to answer?
there is nothing particularly unique about "Chinese" versus non-Chinese fighting in sofar as conferring some sort of specific advantage over another way
I cannot disagree more. There are several advantages.
ok, such as? why do you think studying a CMA would confer you any more advantage than studying a JMA? or a FMA? and I am not asking to "learn kung fu"...:rolleyes:
who? which teachers? how do you know this? a total generalized, unbsubstantiated BS comment if ever there was one - some probably held stuff back, but beyond that, you can't say for sure unless you know something specific, which I doubt you do
This reads: Prove everything to me, or I refuse to believe.
are you 4 years old? that would make sense actually, since at that age you wouldn't have covered reading comprehension in school yet...
I like your tactic of hyperbolizing things - let me bring you back down to earth: do you really think that, in this day and age, anyone is going to take you the least bit seriously if you make generalized comments about unamed teachers and their secretive agendas? hey, the '70's called, they want their BS back...
and you seem to be suggesting, by your of so clever answer, that anyone should just believe what you say because, well, because you say it! what a concept...
again, if you make a generalized unsubstantiated comment, there is no reason for me or anyone else to believe it; if you don't want to provide specifics, fine, don't but then someone is gonna call BS
maybe they took on a bunch of hypnotized kung-fooey types,
Such denial here...ALL just bashing...
denial? such as I deny you the opportunity to say a load of crap and not be questioned on it? ok, that's denial
bashing? if you mean bashing a load of romantic horse pukey and trite stereotypes, darn straight, I'll bash it all over the place; so spare us the appeal for sanitydefense...
let's face it you Iron Tiger / Weasel (I suspect they are one and the same) need to crawl back into your world of chop sockey fantasy and enjoy your life there - if you stick your head out into the real world spewing sillness of this sort, you won't last long: nebulous comments about nameless teacher's practices, claiming "classical Chinese" training without being able to cite anything classical at all, sidestepping questions with "look at how mean they are" snippets - it's all tired out and boring, and that's just how it is, sorry to say
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 06:45 PM
Don't just sit there waiting for us to spoon feed you. Do some research, my man...Chang is quite famous. Google...
I luv it - what planet are you from? in the REAL WORLD when you make a claim and someone questions you on it, YOU are the one upon whom the task of providing evidence rests: in law, medicine, academia, etc., there is no single professional who would last more than a second if they presented something and when asked to substantiate it would EVER dream of telling the questioner "go look it up yourself" - (ever heard of the term "burden of proof"?)
so that BS argument doesn't work, sorry
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 06:54 PM
First off, the body is held with the tail bone tucked, shoulders rounded, chest sunk and back straight. It is very simialr to the "Hollow" position a Gymnast uses, and also seen in high level boxers and MMA fighters. This aligns the body so the skeletal system is positioned with the greatest possible mechanical advantage in realtion to the opponent.
and if you know anything about Western methods of working with postural alignment, such as Rolfing, osteopathy, Feldenkreis, Alexander Technique to name a few, they say just about the same thing, but using different terms / images; so it would appear that these principles are not unique to CMA, they are actually pretty universal (oh, yoga / kalari also...and well before the Chinese, BTW)
Power is generated by opening, and closeing Qua. Arms move in conjunction with the legs, one thing moves, everything moves. This unity of motion gives the effect of making the whole body one huge muscle in action, and allows much greater strength to be issued, in a much shorter space of movement (No wind up needed).
The internal styles take it a few steps further by adding a vertical expansion/contraction motion similar to an accordion. This has a power multiplying effect on power generated by the Qua, arms, and legs (and is uniquely Chinese as far as I can see).
In order for this method of movement to work, The body structure must be as described. If the skeleton is out of alignment in anyway, it throws it all off as you loose the leverage and connections.
if you understand how the connective tissue system works in conjunction with the neuromuscular system, in context of tensegrity / complexity theory, and how it relates to the breathing mechnanism / respiratory diaphragm, and how it relates to ground reaction force propagating through the system, then you are able to describe in very concrete terms this whole concept without referencing Chinese concepts at all...
Green Dragon's skeletal alignment is in total opposition to what is needed. They don't tuck the tail bone, infact they go the opposite direction and stick it out. They don't round the shoulders, they go the opposite, and pull them back. They don't sink the chest, they go the opposite and puff it out. Their back is not straight, and aligned, instead it is actually arched and not even neutral. It's like all the BASIC principals of fundemental Chinese body and skelital alignment is not only not there, but it seems they have worked real hard to do the exact opposite of what is required. Thearfore, they can't, and don't have the "Classical Chinese mechanics". As they claim.
but when you actually LOOK at what they do, everything is all wrong. This is why everyone says they suck.
and everything they do, from a postural analysis / biomechanical perspective used by the above mentioned folks, is essentially the opposite of what is considered appropriate / optimal for health, balance, efficiency, etc.; which means that if someone who works with people that way who had no experience in CMA, but who was very connected and aligned saw that, they would say the same thing as RD
lunghushan
01-19-2007, 06:58 PM
First off, the body is held with the tail bone tucked, shoulders rounded, chest sunk and back straight. It is very simialr to the "Hollow" position a Gymnast uses, and also seen in high level boxers and MMA fighters. This aligns the body so the skeletal system is positioned with the greatest possible mechanical advantage in realtion to the opponent.
For the last fricking time ... Green Dragon does everything necessary to make their Kung Fu women look BETTER. They puff out the chest, enhancing the display of the bust. They stick out the butt, which makes the butt look bigger.
You don't buy a Green Dragon tape to learn martial arts. Who the heck would learn martial arts off of a video tape anyway? Isn't it obvious why they sell these things and have so many women displaying the forms and techniques?
It's like that movie, what was it called, "Behind the Green Door?" "Green Dragon Studios".
Royal Dragon
01-19-2007, 07:10 PM
if you understand how the connective tissue system works in conjunction with the neuromuscular system, in context of tensegrity / complexity theory, and how it relates to the breathing mechnanism / respiratory diaphragm, and how it relates to ground reaction force propagating through the system, then you are able to describe in very concrete terms this whole concept without referencing Chinese concepts at all...
Reply]
I agree, but I only know the Chinese termonology for the descriptions (Sort of)...and then *Try* to translate it into something comprehendable to those who do not understand in those terms. I am not sure I am comming cross properly, but I try.
Knifefighter
01-19-2007, 07:12 PM
Do you think that a fight btw two joes on the street would look the same as two trained chinese stylists? By "look" he may be referring to the tactics and techniques employed.
Usually the two joes on the street look better. Especially when compared to the CMA
"fighters" who claim to have super secret, ancient Chinese techniques that are different than what other fighters use.
Royal Dragon
01-19-2007, 07:14 PM
You don't buy a Green Dragon tape to learn martial arts. Who the heck would learn martial arts off of a video tape anyway? Isn't it obvious why they sell these things and have so many women displaying the forms and techniques?
Reply]
We are not talking about learning from thier tapes, at least I am not. We are talking about learning from them PERIOD.
I don't advise learning form Green Dragon, live or otherwise. They have no fundementals.
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 07:30 PM
Usually the two joes on the street look better. Especially when compared to the CMA
"fighters" who claim to have super secret, ancient Chinese techniques that are different than what other fighters use.
ha! an even better answer than mine! KF, what is wrong with these people? you can't even make the argument that it's because they are "traditionalists" - I mean, Dave, Mike and I are all "traditionally" CMA trained, and enjoy learning / practicing / teaching that aspect to varying degrees, but at the same time, we all know that reality is reality...maybe it's a fly-over country thing?
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 07:34 PM
if you understand how the connective tissue system works in conjunction with the neuromuscular system, in context of tensegrity / complexity theory, and how it relates to the breathing mechnanism / respiratory diaphragm, and how it relates to ground reaction force propagating through the system, then you are able to describe in very concrete terms this whole concept without referencing Chinese concepts at all...
Reply]
I agree, but I only know the Chinese termonology for the descriptions (Sort of)...and then *Try* to translate it into something comprehendable to those who do not understand in those terms. I am not sure I am comming cross properly, but I try.
no reflection on your knowledge base, which seems more than sufficeint (and I would defer to you, in the sense that if you don't even think that GD stuff has a Northern flavor to it, I won't argue): what is important is that these concepts CAN be described without reference to Chinese terminology - you are obviously not blind to that possibility, and so if / when something that fits the bill comes along you are able to make an intelligent, reasonable assessment of the situation on its own merits, as opposed to some knee jerk, head in the sand response...
lunghushan
01-19-2007, 08:05 PM
ha! an even better answer than mine! KF, what is wrong with these people? you can't even make the argument that it's because they are "traditionalists" - I mean, Dave, Mike and I are all "traditionally" CMA trained, and enjoy learning / practicing / teaching that aspect to varying degrees, but at the same time, we all know that reality is reality...maybe it's a fly-over country thing?
I don't know what to say except that I have some GD studios tapes -- I thought I threw them out but in fact I put them in a bag in my garage.
a) That guy Allen just talks way too much. and b) Yes they do seem to have a paratrooper mentality -- at least in the way he holds himself, it's very different.
But one has a chick breaking a slab of concrete -- that's a pretty good tape -- I've never seen a chick do that.
KF -- I don't know what to say to you. Like I said, I agree with your basic premise that a lot of CMA people can't fight worth crap, but I don't know what to do about it. Endless complaining about it isn't going to help matters any.
Fact is, bare-handed fighting just isn't that useful anymore in society, and people want to be entertained. They don't know a real fight from a real anything else ... they watch T.V. and movies and think that wushu choreographed sequences is the real deal.
But finding real fighting oriented schools that aren't just kickboxing IMHO is kindof hard. There's a Wing Lam school nearby that I'd go to and the instructor seems cool but he just talks way too much and only has sparring once in a while. (Not that I'd want to go spar anyways since the entire disease thing).
The body method (shen fa) in all their videos that I have at least seems to be the same. I don't think you'd do Bak Mei with the same body method as White Lotus Continuous Palms -- but what do I know. I've run into other teachers who do all their forms the same and they have had different, real, teachers, so ... ???
lunghushan
01-19-2007, 08:15 PM
Anyways, if you're looking for KF tapes, I personally would recommend Wing Lam's over these. Because a) He does the stuff b) He doesn't talk on and on. Chicoine and Allen seem to talk way too much. I don't really like taking martial arts from non-Asians because they just seem to blather on and on for hours, which really cuts into training time.
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 08:27 PM
That guy Allen just talks way too much.
agreed; I remember seeing him going on and on about this "excellent, EXCELLENT" style and whatnot - very funny...
IronWeasel
01-19-2007, 09:09 PM
I luv it - what planet are you from? in the REAL WORLD when you make a claim and someone questions you on it, YOU are the one upon whom the task of providing evidence rests: in law, medicine, academia, etc., there is no single professional who would last more than a second if they presented something and when asked to substantiate it would EVER dream of telling the questioner "go look it up yourself" - (ever heard of the term "burden of proof"?)
so that BS argument doesn't work, sorry
ORLY?? You want ME to provide YOU with evidence of every reference that I make? C'mon...we'll be here all day googling and typing. If some point that we make is critical to the discussion, then fine. But you call for proof for nearly everything. Asking you to google some of this info on your own is "B.S."?
Can we get back to the actual discussion, plz?
Royal Dragon
01-19-2007, 09:22 PM
what is important is that these concepts CAN be described without reference to Chinese terminology -
Reply]
Absolutely it can. The human body, is the human body reguardless of language or national origin.
you are obviously not blind to that possibility, and so if / when something that fits the bill comes along you are able to make an intelligent, reasonable assessment of the situation on its own merits, as opposed to some knee jerk, head in the sand response...
Reply]
Thank you.
IronWeasel
01-19-2007, 09:29 PM
no, that's not what I am saying: that's the difference between untrained and trained fighters; the difference between trained CMA stylists and trained MA from other styles won't look as different, because the principles that will make one successful in a fight are the same across the board - there may be differences in technique, but then you certainly can't lump ALL CMA under the rubrick of "Chinese fighting" - to say that a Ba Gua fighter will look anything like a Hung Ga fighter is absurd (although given the generic way in which GD does their forms, it wouldn't be surprising if you did): they would look as different as a Bok Mei from a karate fighter - if there is the same degree of differentiation within CMA, you certainly can't use the analogy successfully between CMA and othere MA
There are empty hand combat advantages that I have learned from Chinese styles that are absent from western and Japanese styles.
are you really that stupid or just faking it? do you REALLY think that is my agenda? why can't you answer a simple question, one that anybody from a legitamate system would be able to answer?
Some of your posts seem to reflect an education and are well thought out. And then some come out like the above.
are you 4 years old? that would make sense actually, since at that age you wouldn't have covered reading comprehension in school yet...
And again...
I like your tactic of hyperbolizing things - let me bring you back down to earth: do you really think that, in this day and age, anyone is going to take you the least bit seriously if you make generalized comments about unamed teachers and their secretive agendas? hey, the '70's called, they want their BS back...
I never said anything about secrets and agendas. Someone else's post maybe?
and you seem to be suggesting, by your of so clever answer, that anyone should just believe what you say because, well, because you say it! what a concept...
again, if you make a generalized unsubstantiated comment, there is no reason for me or anyone else to believe it; if you don't want to provide specifics, fine, don't but then someone is gonna call BS
Jeez, man...If I told you that I lift weights and my muscles get bigger, do I need to attach documentation from Flex magazine or something?
I'm not trying to trick you. What, specifically, did you need proven?
denial? such as I deny you the opportunity to say a load of crap and not be questioned on it? ok, that's denial
bashing? if you mean bashing a load of romantic horse pukey and trite stereotypes, darn straight, I'll bash it all over the place; so spare us the appeal for sanitydefense...
I'm not sure where 'romantic' and ' horsepukey' came in here, but can we steer this back to CMA?
let's face it you Iron Tiger / Weasel (I suspect they are one and the same) need to crawl back into your world of chop sockey fantasy and enjoy your life there - if you stick your head out into the real world spewing sillness of this sort, you won't last long: nebulous comments about nameless teacher's practices, claiming "classical Chinese" training without being able to cite anything classical at all, sidestepping questions with "look at how mean they are" snippets - it's all tired out and boring, and that's just how it is, sorry to say
Well....I'm not the same guy as Iron Tiger, but since Doowai in't in this thread, there's got to be SOME conspiracy theory. No one has remained 'nameless'...not sure where you're coming from there. I'll answer all questions directly...no sidestepping here. Just tell me what is bothering you and I'll do my best to clarify.
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 10:10 PM
IW seems to want to be reasonable - to wit:
I'll answer all questions directly...no sidestepping here. Just tell me what is bothering you and I'll do my best to clarify.
ok, let's look at some simple ones regarding stuff IT wrote:
it's a fact that many Chinese teachers held back some of the more "unconventional" training methods even after the decision had been made by some of them to teach non-Chinese back in the ca. mid-60s.
which teachers? what specifically was held back? how is this known?
Ong, for example, died without passing on a lot of what he actually knew.
how is this known? how is it verifiable? or is it conjecture?
The problem is that so few people actually use many of the more technical, in terms of body mechanics, insights the Chinese pioneered and utilized.
which Chinese? when? what "technical insights" specifically? in my Taichi system we have 10 principles regarding this, any of which I could easily reference and comment on...
And it's a fact that fighters like Feemon Ong and Tung Shen Chang had more going on than mere 'body mechanics' when they trained & fought.
a fact? well, first, what does "more than mere body mechanics" mean? how is it a fact that they used this? as for fighting, in what venues did they fight where this was observed? who did they fight?
and how it relates to true Chinese fighting & principles; no understanding whatsoever of true Chinese maneuvering and how it is supposed to occur; no grasp of what is going on from a power-delivery standpoint at all.
what are the "true" principles of which he speaks? how are they given in terms of Chinese characters? what is the source of these principles?
now back to you:
There are empty hand combat advantages that I have learned from Chinese styles that are absent from western and Japanese styles.
such as? which CMA styles/ which JMA styles? what specific advantages?
in regards to my coment "are you really that stupid or just faking it? do you REALLY think that is my agenda? why can't you answer a simple question, one that anybody from a legitamate system would be able to answer?", you wrote:
Some of your posts seem to reflect an education and are well thought out. And then some come out like the above.
well my response was to your comment below in regards to when I asked a question about supplying a specific reference for the supposed "true Chinese principles", you stated:
I read: "Someone please teach me some Kung Fu."
so you got to be the first a$$-wipe out of the gate in terms of dodging the question and belittling the questioner...what do you expect? of course, you could have taken the opportunity to actualy cite a source / give a specific example, but that would have been too much work I guess...
there's more, but let's start easy first
Akronviper
01-19-2007, 10:18 PM
I luv it - what planet are you from? in the REAL WORLD when you make a claim and someone questions you on it, YOU are the one upon whom the task of providing evidence rests: in law, medicine, academia, etc., there is no single professional who would last more than a second if they presented something and when asked to substantiate it would EVER dream of telling the questioner "go look it up yourself" - (ever heard of the term "burden of proof"?)
so that BS argument doesn't work, sorry
Grand Master Tung Sheng Ch'ang was born in 1908, the year of the Monkey, in Hopei Province in the northeastern section of China, long known for the great martial artists produced there. Of all the masters coming form this region over the past 2,000 years, one of the most pre-eminent is the legendary Grandmaster Tung Sheng Ch'ang, perhaps the greatest fighter in the last 300 years irrespective of style and certainly the most tested and proven one in this century.
Grandmaster Ch'ang started serious training in Kung-Fu in 1915 when he was 7 years old. He learned the basics from his father and grandfather, but later, his teacher was the famous Master Chang Feng- yen who was well know as the foremost expert in Pao-Ting Shuai-Chiao, the fastest and most powerful of the three main branches of the ancient art. Chang Feng-Yen was the top disciple of Ping Jing-yee who, like Grandmaster Ch'ang, was a legend in his own time. General Ma, the first of the great masters to compile ancient Shuai Chiao techniques for publication, was another prestigious student of Ping Jing-Yee.
Grandmaster Ch'ang has often stated that Master Chang Feng-Yen was the best teacher in that time regardless of style, and as a result, many of the most promising young students wished to study with him. Of many who came before Master Feng-Yen to exhibit their basic skills, very few were chosen. Grandmaster Ch'ang was not only one of those few, but by the time he was 17, he was already declared a Master himself. He had attained proficiency unmatched by any of his peers, was the favorite pupil of Master Feng-yen, and had married his Master's second daughter.
When Grandmaster Ch'ang was about 20 years old, he left Hopei Province and went to Nanking to study at the central Kuo Shu School, the best in all China, in order to learn all the major styles of Kung fu. Since the best instructors and students from every major style were represented there, admission was an honor and it exposed the practitioner to the widest possible cross-section of Chinese Marital Arts knowledge that could be found anywhere. In a phrase, if it wasn't practiced there, it probably wasn't worth much. Once again, Grandmaster Ch'ang's compatibility's were such that after 5 years of training with the best students in all China, he emerged at the head of the program and became a teacher of the Shuai Chiao Department, having also mastered the styles of Hsing Yi, Lo Han, Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and most elements of Shaolin in addition to his own.
At one point, he went to challenge the Mongolian champion at their annual meet in Chang-Chia-Kua. In doing so, he had to fight the well know Hukli, a giant of a man standing well over six feet tall and weighing almost 400 pounds!
Grandmaster Ch'ang agreed to use only wrestling techniques, and despite the difference in size, repeatedly countered dozens of attacks by the Mongolian champion while throwing him down again and again with a variety of beautifully executed moves.
In 1933, at the age of 25, Grandmaster Ch'ang entered the fifth national Kua Shu Elimination Tournament in Nanking. This no holds barred competition involved over 1,000 participants and included masters in all major styles from all over China battling each other of supremacy in all-out combat. Grandmaster Ch'ang won all of his matches, including one over his archrival, Liu Chiou-Sheng, and emerged as the Heavyweight Grand Champion. Significantly, this was the last great tournament of its kind where masters who were trained in the old ways fought in an anything goes matter to determine the very best among them. This national meet was considered to be the severest test of the ability, strength, and skill of any fighter and the winner was fully acknowledged to be the undisputed champion of all China. Such open, free style, no holds barred tournaments on that scale were never held again, leaving Grandmaster Ch'ang the last truly tested fighter open to challenge by anyone regardless of style or system!
Both before and after his brilliant victory in the national tournament, Grandmaster Ch'ang traveled frequently. His intent was to seek out different teachers all over mainland China that were known to be famous for certain techniques or movements. It has been said that he studied with most of the best living masters, humbly playing the role of student even though he could defeat them. He continued this quest until he learned the specialties of the 70 different teachers and was satisfied that the techniques he know were the best in existence.
During World War II, Grandmaster Ch'ang trained elite units of the military where he eventually rose to the rank of Lt. General. His exploits during this time are a story alone and would take a book to recount. Just one aspect of his many experiences involved challenging all of the top Judo experts at the Kuang-Si Province prison camp. Over a thousand prisoners were interned there and amused themselves by practicing Judo all day long. After challenging and beating the Chinese guards, they were confronted by Grandmaster Ch'ang who had heard of the prowess while teaching in Kue-Lin, the capital of Kuang-Si Province. Grandmaster Ch'ang fought every one in turn, including three high-ranking champions, Hakayama Taido, Hisa Kuma, and Hichi Masao, and defeated each of them handily.
In 1948, the national athletic meet was held in Shanghai. Unlike the tournaments before the war when hundreds of great masters were still living (many died in the war), the meet was not an open, free-style, anything goes contest. In conjunction with this major change, Shuai-Chiao was now an independent contest. No other styles were allowed as with the last Kuo Shu Elimination Tournament mentioned earlier. Even with the limitations, the scope of the contest was large. Participants came from 32 provinces, 12 special municipal cities, 9 overseas Chinese teams, and 58 military police units! Grandmaster Ch'ang, now 40 years old, represented the army and easily won the overall championship, proving he was still the number one even after 15 years had passed!
Having won two national tournaments and proven himself countless times in matches, both friendly and otherwise, Grandmaster Ch'ang went on to teach at the Central Police Academy in Taipei for nearly 30 years. During that time he was also Chief Official for all of the national tournaments on Taiwan and Shuai Chiao advisor for the military, police, and the educational system. Though many Kung-Fu styles are taught in Taiwan, none have the prestige of Shuai Chiao. The Taiwan Shuai Chiao Association boasts over 30,000 members, which makes it the largest Chinese martial arts organization in the world!
In April, 1975, Grandmaster Ch'ang, then 68 years old, was invited to Morocco to give an exhibition of the Chinese arts to the King (Grandmaster Ch'ang's faith was Islam). During his visits, a 4th degree Tae Kwon Do instructor in service to the King as head of his personal bodyguards challenged Ch'ang and Ch'ang accepted. The match lasted only seconds as Grandmaster Ch'ang deftly dodged the attack of the Korean and knocked him unconscious with a slap of the hand! Obviously, the years had not diminished the physical power and skills acquired from being trained by masters from the previous century, the likes of which now exist only in a small handful of very old men.
In February 1982, the Grandmaster organized the International Shuai Chiao Association and spent much of the time promoting his art by traveling throughout the world giving demonstrations, workshops, and seminars. In June, 1986, at the age of 78, the martial arts world was saddened by his untimely death.
The extent to which Grandmaster Ch'ang was respected, revered, and feared by the Chinese martial arts community is incalculable. He was literally regarded as a national treasure by Taiwan and was the only Master to be granted Red, White, and Blue Belt, the national colors of Taiwan. The belt was buried with him and will never be awarded again. Since the knowledge and the caliber of men needed to train someone as Grandmaster Ch'ang was trained no longer even exist, the 10 Degree was retired upon his death. Ten years later the belt was rewarded to Grandmaster Gene Chicoine in 1996 at the national remembrance of Grandmaster Ch'ang. Some say that as much at 60% of all Kung-Fu knowledge that existed in the earlier years of this century went to the grave with Grandmaster Ch'ang!
http://www.shuaichiao.com/
http://www.kungfu.org/chang.shtml
http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/history.html
http://www.shuai-chiao.org/shuaichiao_home.htm
http://www.mg-3d.com/
Also check out Smiths book on famous chinese masters, Chang also wrote a book if you read Chinese, David Lin will be putting out a book this year also.
The Ong comment wasnt for you but to understand Ong may help understand a peice of the GD puzzle since Ong was a teacher of Allen. It good to know all info prior to bashing..
http://www.kwanyingdo.com/feemanong.htm
cjurakpt
01-19-2007, 10:34 PM
thank you for the info and citations
in regards to the large scale public events you cite at which GM Chang fought and won, they are most likely verifiable by independent sources; obviously his being honored by legitamate organizations such as the Taiwanese goverrnment support this as well
so the point that GM Chang was, as stated, a great fighter, is unquestionably a legitamate one
I would, however, still take issue with Iron Tiger's comment that what he did was beyond "mere body mechanics"; he sounds like someone who trained very hard and very well in arts that emphasized applied biomechanics on a regular basis (e.g. - Shui Chiao); so for him to have developed his mechanics to the point where they seemed "greater than the sum of their parts" is not unreasonable - but barring supernatural intervention, to say it was more than that makes no sense (e.g. there is nothing in his bio that suggests he was into esoteric tantric taoist practice, for example); in my personal experience with two teachers of that generation (Chan Tai Shan and BP Chan), they were both regarded as being very skilled, and it always boiled down to proper useage - which they had integrated to the point where they were effortless and thus highly efficient - nothing more, nothig less
again, I appreciate your post: you obviously understand the way in whcih an argument is properly coducting
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 10:18 AM
now back to you:
such as? which CMA styles/ which JMA styles? what specific advantages?
there's more, but let's start easy first
Alrighty...
The following are found predominantly in Chinese but not in Japanese/Western styles:
Emphasis on leg strength: Helps rooting, generates pover and stability, eases maneuvering in low stances (which makes defending the whole body, especially the lower gate, easier with less area to cover with blocks.)
Body conditioning: Tension exercises make the body resistant to damage. Very helpful if you practice a striking style. It develops a srtong grip, important if you employ a grappling style.
Tactics: Circular blocking and redirecting, very much more of this in Chinese styles than Japanese/Western. Closing the centerline: this tactic has personally worked for me better than the punch for punch, toe to toe centerline dominance. Closing the centerline movements are built right in to many forms, so that they seem to have been intended for that kind of use.
Waist involvement: The Karate and Tae Kwon Do instruction that I rec's de emphasized waist involvement in punching. They keep the shoulders square and punch with the arm. Turning the waist and shoulders as in CMA gives a faster punch with more range and power.
Leg attacks: With all the stretching and high kicking the Japanese arts emphasize head attacks. Nothing says goodnight quite like a heavy roundhouse to the noggin...but it leaves you very vulnerable, so you'd better K.O. or you're wide open. CMA attacks the legs, knees and employs low sweeps, they might not K.O. you, but they are effective more often than the one-kick-one-kill. I've heard that kicking to the head is tantamount to puching someone in the foot.
This post is long enough for now...hope this helps.
Knifefighter
01-20-2007, 10:29 AM
Body conditioning: Tension exercises make the body resistant to damage. Very helpful if you practice a striking style. It develops a srtong grip, important if you employ a grappling style.
Pretty much every western style from boxing, to wrestling, to BJJ, to kickboxing emphasizes conditioning.
Waist involvement: The Karate and Tae Kwon Do instruction that I rec's de emphasized waist involvement in punching. They keep the shoulders square and punch with the arm. Turning the waist and shoulders as in CMA gives a faster punch with more range and power.
Boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai all are based on hip/waist involvement.
Leg attacks: With all the stretching and high kicking the Japanese arts emphasize head attacks. Nothing says goodnight quite like a heavy roundhouse to the noggin...but it leaves you very vulnerable, so you'd better K.O. or you're wide open. CMA attacks the legs, knees and employs low sweeps, they might not K.O. you, but they are effective more often than the one-kick-one-kill. I've heard that kicking to the head is tantamount to puching someone in the foot.
The kicks of Muay Thai are predominantly to the legs.
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 10:34 AM
Pretty much every western style from boxing, to wrestling, to BJJ, to kickboxing emphasizes conditioning.
Of course they do. I'll bet that you, yourself, have even done some conditioning in your lifetime. Thank you for taking time out of your busy Saturday to post.
BTW...that's not the kind of conditioning that I mentioned in my post, tho.:o
Knifefighter
01-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Of course they do. I'll bet that you, yourself, have even done some conditioning in your lifetime. Thank you for taking time out of your busy Saturday to post.
BTW...that's not the kind of conditioning that I mentioned in my post, tho.:o
Oh yeah, I forgot... you are talking about the BS Green Dragon pseudo-conditioning stuff.
That's not CMA, though. That's made up Americanized money making scam stuff.
lkfmdc
01-20-2007, 10:56 AM
The pseudo CMA Green Dragon crowd is almost as amusing as the BBM crowd, but I feel I can make a few more useful comments
Do not confuse Chang Tung Sheng with Allen and his crowd. At best, Allen met Chang a few times through Gene Chicoine. Should I remind the world that Allen and Gene got caught with that doctored photo they used to use, the one where they put Chang in between them to make it seem like Chang endorsed their stuff... or worse, that it was Chang's material
Funny thing how they got caught, they forgot that under Chang's arm the background was different and never touched it up :D
I have trained with a number of people who were direct studnets of Chang. Chang was a grappler, a NO NONSENSE grappler, sort of a MMA type really. He had good body mechanics and trained with lots of live wrestling. He also had lots of real world experience from his military/police work. He also HATED the Chi mumbo jumbo and spoke out against it his entire life
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 12:00 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot... you are talking about the BS Green Dragon pseudo-conditioning stuff.
That's not CMA, though. That's made up Americanized money making scam stuff.
You know...your posts have no meaningful content. All you do is cry "B.S." and throw out personal attacks. At least cjurakpt et. al. will acknowledge and move the thread foreward once their questions are answered.
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 12:11 PM
The pseudo CMA Green Dragon crowd is almost as amusing as the BBM crowd, but I feel I can make a few more useful comments
Do not confuse Chang Tung Sheng with Allen and his crowd. At best, Allen met Chang a few times through Gene Chicoine. Should I remind the world that Allen and Gene got caught with that doctored photo they used to use, the one where they put Chang in between them to make it seem like Chang endorsed their stuff... or worse, that it was Chang's material
Funny thing how they got caught, they forgot that under Chang's arm the background was different and never touched it up :D
Got caught with a doctored photo? Chang DID endore their "stuff".
Why do you post claims like this? What you're doing is this sifu or that lineage false. When others have cast doubt onto YOUR sifu, you became verbally abusive in the forums. Why, then, would you do the very same thing?
lunghushan
01-20-2007, 12:22 PM
This discussion is really starting to heat up. LOL
Hey, anybody know about those Shuai Chiao guys up in Salem, NY? I ran into their school in upper Westchester a long time ago. They seemed to train in the funny jackets and all that, but it was so far from civilization as to be an impossible commute.
Here, these guys ... looks like they moved their school. They also claim to be from the Chang Tung Sheng.
http://www.kungfu.org/grand.shtml
iron tiger
01-20-2007, 12:39 PM
but what is "chi"? it's not some mystical force
Correct. It's a kind of bio-electricity.
To lump Ong and Chang into the same statement is an insult to Chang
Very true in most cases, but whatever else you might want to say about him, Ong did know how to fight (in the old Chinese tradition & paradigm) and was very accomplished relative to almost everyone you see around today.
That said, he was light years behind Grandmaster Chang's astounding knowledge & level of skill.
lunghushan
01-20-2007, 12:53 PM
Very true in most cases, but whatever else you might want to say about him, Ong did know how to fight (in the old Chinese tradition & paradigm) and was very accomplished relative to almost everyone you see around today.
That said, he was light years behind Grandmaster Chang's astounding knowledge & level of skill.
Okay, that's great. Ong did this, Chang did that ... who the hell cares what any of them did.
What do YOU do? What do YOU offer? How effective is YOUR stuff? All this talk of old masters is kindof stupid.
lkfmdc
01-20-2007, 01:33 PM
Got caught with a doctored photo? Chang DID endore their "stuff".
Why do you post claims like this? What you're doing is this sifu or that lineage false. When others have cast doubt onto YOUR sifu, you became verbally abusive in the forums. Why, then, would you do the very same thing?
I trained with Jeng Hsin Ping, do you know who that is? The various stuff that Allen peddles did NOT come from Chang. And he backed away from claiming that years ago when he got caught.
The doctored photo used to be on all the ads, then suddenly is disappeared. Are you so blind you don't wonder why the pic is NEVER used anymore?
Chang didn't do Bung Bo, he didn't do wu mei, he didn't do bak mei, he didn't do any "southern intellectual fist" LMFAO :rolleyes:
Chang didn't even believe in iron palm....
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 01:42 PM
I trained with Jeng Hsin Ping, do you know who that is?
Yes.
The various stuff that Allen peddles did NOT come from Chang. And he backed away from claiming that years ago when he got caught.
I've never heard him claim that. His claim was that Chang 'corrected' some of the material that was taught by Ong. Chang must have known SOME of the same material to do that. Chang was also behind the Yang style Tai Chi that Allen does.
The doctored photo used to be on all the ads, then suddenly is disappeared. Are you so blind you don't wonder why the pic is NEVER used anymore?
I'm Blind? You have me writhing in the grip of your logic...
The 8x10 (or so) was hanging in the office.
Chang didn't do Bung Bo, he didn't do wu mei, he didn't do bak mei, he didn't do any "southern intellectual fist" LMFAO :rolleyes:
No one said that he did.
Chang didn't even believe in iron palm....
That topic is being beat up in other posts.
lkfmdc
01-20-2007, 01:46 PM
The 8x10 (or so) was hanging in the office
Then walk up to it and ask yourself, why is the background under CHang's arms radically different than the background behind both Allen and Gene Chicoine?
IronWeasel
01-20-2007, 02:59 PM
Then walk up to it and ask yourself, why is the background under CHang's arms radically different than the background behind both Allen and Gene Chicoine?
Not really sure why you're focusing on the photograph. Are you trying to imply that the Discipleship is fictitious because you don't like the looks of a photo?
There aren't many pictures of me at work. We must conclude that I am unemployed!
I remember that photograph. It's the one where Allen still has a beard, right?
I'll see if I can dig one out of my old magazines.
I recall that in the ad that went with that photo, it said Allen was a 7th degree and Chicoine was a 9th degree.
What were those grades actually in? (SC?) and who awarded them?
Akronviper
01-20-2007, 10:40 PM
The pseudo CMA Green Dragon crowd is almost as amusing as the BBM crowd, but I feel I can make a few more useful comments
Do not confuse Chang Tung Sheng with Allen and his crowd. At best, Allen met Chang a few times through Gene Chicoine. Should I remind the world that Allen and Gene got caught with that doctored photo they used to use, the one where they put Chang in between them to make it seem like Chang endorsed their stuff... or worse, that it was Chang's material
Funny thing how they got caught, they forgot that under Chang's arm the background was different and never touched it up :D
I have trained with a number of people who were direct studnets of Chang. Chang was a grappler, a NO NONSENSE grappler, sort of a MMA type really. He had good body mechanics and trained with lots of live wrestling. He also had lots of real world experience from his military/police work. He also HATED the Chi mumbo jumbo and spoke out against it his entire life
Very well said, the Chicoine/Allen relationship was one of bussiness and was ended quickly.
The martial arts Allen knows is to be blunt a half ass Shaolin version from Ong. The remaing material is stolen, borrowed or whatever. Seeing that he sells this for $80 a tape it dosnt really matter how good it is because its just a business.
It may be hard for many to come to terms with this because know one belives their teacher is not the best thing out there, if you did you would'nt be there.
Is there usefullness in the tapes? yes. Are they the greatest? No. Should one use the tapes for learning purposes? absolutly not....
Lama Pai Sifu
01-20-2007, 11:03 PM
Correct. It's a kind of bio-electricity.
Very true in most cases, but whatever else you might want to say about him, Ong did know how to fight (in the old Chinese tradition & paradigm) and was very accomplished relative to almost everyone you see around today.
That said, he was light years behind Grandmaster Chang's astounding knowledge & level of skill.
Iron Tiger, you make many claims as if you have seen these things first hand; whom did you train with? Did you train with Chang or Ong? What knowledge of other styles/sifu do you have, to say these things?
If you only trained with Allen, how can you state these things as 'fact', when what you are really doing is repeating what you have been told by Allen. If this is the case, you should preface these statements with; "J. Allen told me....".
And even if you only saw either of these men demo something...what is your experience or frame of reference to make such bold statements??
Not hating...just asking legit questions.
cjurakpt
01-21-2007, 05:14 AM
Correct. It's a kind of bio-electricity.
no, it's not; "bio-electricity", or the electrical current that occur naturally in the body and that is easily measureable (and yes, many "classical" acupuncture points do display differences in electrical potential relative to areas around them), is not qi, in terms of the overall concept of the metaphor; again, if you really understand what qi "is", you realize it's not an objectifiable "thing" - it is a descriptive metaphor for a set of functional interelationships in the body as it relates to itself and to the outside world; it is a functional model that, when followed with appropriate internal consistency in context of Chinese body view / medicine, yields a reasonably predictive degree of diagnositic, therapeutic and prognostic information
MonkeyKingUSA
01-21-2007, 10:29 AM
cjurakpt wrote:
...if you really understand what qi "is", you realize it's not an objectifiable "thing" - it is a descriptive metaphor for a set of functional interelationships in the body as it relates to itself and to the outside world; it is a functional model that, when followed with appropriate internal consistency in context of Chinese body view / medicine, yields a reasonably predictive degree of diagnositic, therapeutic and prognostic information
And this definition is based on what? What is your source? You say this as if it is a proven fact. Can you provide evidence?
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. But since you act as if you are speaking with authority, I wonder where that authority and certainty comes from. :)
Since your profile doesn't tell us anything about you and you do not give your real name, we do not know if you have the background to make this judgement for us. Are you a scientist, a master of qigong, or a doctor of TCM?
No offense intended, but when you make a statement like "if you really understand what qi is" you set yourself up as an expert on the subject. So we would like to know the basis of your expertise.
Thanks in advance!
Richard A. Tolson
Ironman
01-21-2007, 11:51 AM
cjurakpt wrote:
...if you really understand what qi "is", you realize it's not an objectifiable "thing" - it is a descriptive metaphor for a set of functional interelationships in the body as it relates to itself and to the outside world; it is a functional model that, when followed with appropriate internal consistency in context of Chinese body view / medicine, yields a reasonably predictive degree of diagnositic, therapeutic and prognostic information
And this definition is based on what? What is your source? You say this as if it is a proven fact. Can you provide evidence?
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. But since you act as if you are speaking with authority, I wonder where that authority and certainty comes from. :)
Since your profile doesn't tell us anything about you and you do not give your real name, we do not know if you have the background to make this judgement for us. Are you a scientist, a master of qigong, or a doctor of TCM?
No offense intended, but when you make a statement like "if you really understand what qi is" you set yourself up as an expert on the subject. So we would like to know the basis of your expertise.
Thanks in advance!
Richard A. Tolson
Great questions, MonkeyKingUSA. It is pretty evident that he knows very little about chi or chi cultivation. Yes we all have chi. It is the life force. Chi Kung is a means to cultivate chi. It is a mystery to most especially to those who have not been exposed. :)
iron tiger
01-21-2007, 01:19 PM
If you only trained with Allen, how can you state these things as 'fact', when what you are really doing is repeating what you have been told by Allen. If this is the case, you should preface these statements with; "J. Allen told me....".
I didn't take his word for it alone. I would think that that would be clear from some of my other posts, if not, oh well.
I did the work on the programs alluded to in a coupla threads. They work, if you do.
Also I must respectfully disagree with AkronViper on several points...Or has he actually trained under Allen, on GD's material, in the past; rather than just going by word-of-mouth?
The bulk of Allen's material did *not* come from Ong.
:)
MonkeyKingUSA
01-21-2007, 05:12 PM
Ironman wrote:
Great questions, MonkeyKingUSA. It is pretty evident that he knows very little about chi or chi cultivation. Yes we all have chi. It is the life force. Chi Kung is a means to cultivate chi. It is a mystery to most especially to those who have not been exposed.
As I stated above, I am not necessarily disagreeing with cjurakpt. However, that is one interpretation of qi. Qi is many things to many people. Whether a matter of fact, faith, or fiction I believe it is still "up in the air" enough to be open to various opinions on the matter. After 33 years of experience in CMA I still am wary of being too opinionated on the matter.
Richard A. Tolson
cjurakpt
01-21-2007, 07:00 PM
And this definition is based on what? What is your source? You say this as if it is a proven fact. Can you provide evidence?
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. But since you act as if you are speaking with authority, I wonder where that authority and certainty comes from. :)
Since your profile doesn't tell us anything about you and you do not give your real name, we do not know if you have the background to make this judgement for us. Are you a scientist, a master of qigong, or a doctor of TCM?
No offense intended, but when you make a statement like "if you really understand what qi is" you set yourself up as an expert on the subject. So we would like to know the basis of your expertise.
Thanks in advance!
Richard A. Tolson
no offense taken; it's an opinion, one that is based on a personal investigation / experience; the "authority" is that as I have seen a lot of very sloppy use of the term qi in my life, often as a fall back / default / back door way of describbing things when people run out of terms from a western perspective, I have spent time reading, practicing etc. to try to come up with something more appropriate, a way to "translate" the concept from a Chinese paradigm to a western one; take it as authority or not, that's up to you; as for "evidence", it is sort of backwards: since there is no extant, well-designed study that has ever definitively shown "qi" as some sort of independent, separate "thing", and if we are willing to buy into the whole concept, then I would suggest (there, better?) that looking at it from a functional perspective might yield a bit more fruit than looking for some sort of "other" force that you can measure with a machine; to call it "bio-electricity" doesn't quite do it justice, it's the reducing the phenommenon to something quantifiable; and I think this is not contradictory to Chinese thought, which is based on metaphor and ambiguity to a certain extent: e.g. - one character, multiple shades of meaning that are CONTEXT driven - same with moves in forms: one move, multiple applications; so if you take that and apply it to "qi", then the notion that it is one "thing" doesn't really jive - of course, TCM texts describe many types of "qi", which is why the functional description makes sense...
cjurakpt
01-21-2007, 07:05 PM
Great questions, MonkeyKingUSA. It is pretty evident that he knows very little about chi or chi cultivation.
and how exactly is that evident?
Yes we all have chi. It is the life force.
please - that's the typical, sloppy, non-specific type of "reasoning" that all you part-time amateur "healers" fall back on - no attempt at intellectual rigor, it's all warm and fuzzy to you guys;
Chi Kung is a means to cultivate chi. It is a mystery to most especially to those who have not been exposed. :)
or maybe it's not as mysterious as all that, but then again, admitting that kinda takes away from your special status...
Lama Pai Sifu
01-21-2007, 07:11 PM
Iron Tiger, you make many claims as if you have seen these things first hand; whom did you train with? Did you train with Chang or Ong? What knowledge of other styles/sifu do you have, to say these things?
If you only trained with Allen, how can you state these things as 'fact', when what you are really doing is repeating what you have been told by Allen. If this is the case, you should preface these statements with; "J. Allen told me....".
And even if you only saw either of these men demo something...what is your experience or frame of reference to make such bold statements??
Not hating...just asking legit questions.
IRON TIGER,
I see that you mentioned my post, but did not address the questions - you moved onto something else. Please read it again and, if you don't mind, share the answers with us. Most specifically, whom did you train with?
cjurakpt
01-21-2007, 07:23 PM
Since your profile doesn't tell us anything about you and you do not give your real name, we do not know if you have the background to make this judgement for us. Are you a scientist, a master of qigong, or a doctor of TCM?
sorry, I missed this part - never let it be said that I hide behind anonymity
a) I do give my real name: cjurakpt = Chris Jurak, PT;
b) my qualifications are that I am a NYS licensed physical therapist with 12 years experience (http://www.nysed.gov/coms/op001/opscr2?profcd=62&plicno=015172)
and am an affiliated Dan Tao teacher / certified qigong therapist under Master Sat Hon (http://users.erols.com/dantao/ - scroll down the home page, I am the guy in the picture sitting to the left of Master Hon - my name's not there, but you could e-mail him and ask, he'd verify it for you)
c) I would not qualify myself as a master of anything, but I have over 20 years experience in the field of CMA, including tai chi and qigong; my other area of experience is in a variety of hands on therapies, including TCM (tui na, dim yuht, jing gwat), and osteopathic (cranial, visceral, strutural, etc.);
so those are my credentials - whether that qualifies me to say anything is up to you, but at least it's verifiable - unlike certain NAMELESS, UNLICENSED individuals who have no notion of professional ethics, conduct or accountability...
cjurakpt
01-21-2007, 08:07 PM
to put a finer point on it, let's ask Ironman some reasonable questions:
in regards to your "healing" knowledge:
1) with whom did you train? are they certified / qualified to teach by any licensing authority? did you have any internships of supervised practice?
2) are you licensed? if so, by whom? if not, by what authority do you practice medicine? are you aware of the laws in your state that limit certain types of practice to licensed individuals? are you insured? what happens if a patient is dissatisfied with your treatment or has a negative response?
3) how many patients / clients do you see per day / week on a regular basis? how do you advertise?
4) what sort of diagnostic criteria do you use? tongue? pulse? history? are you able to incorporate things such as bloodwork, radiographs etc. into your practice if someone brings them with him?
5) what sort of continuing education do you do to stay curent in the field?
6) when you prescribe herbs, how do you reference current information such as the known interractions between herbs and prescription meds?
7) what do you advise patients to do if they have a bad reaction to anything you do / give to them? what did you do the last time a person had a negative response to your treatment?
8) under what circumstances would you refer someone out to a more qualified professional because the problem they cam to you with was outside your scope of "pactice"?
9) let's try a simple hypothetical question: a patient with dx. of rheumatoid arthritis comes to you after failing to get any lasting relief with "conventional" therapies; during your evaluation, they report having recently had intermittent yet recurring symptoms of nausea, tingling of the lips / tongue and tunel vision when they look down, such as when trying to put on their shoes;
a) what would you ask them to do actively to assess this? what would you do passively to assess this?
b) if the two tests were positive, what do you suspect would be happening based on this?
c) what treatment might you give based upon a positive result?
these are all basic, standard questions that anyone in the legitamate healthcare field would easily be able to answer, because that's what happens when you are trained and supervised by competant individuals who practice under the notion of accountability and transparancy;
and before you go bashing the "establishment" and decrying the licensing procedure, let me ask you, would you have the temerity to practice law, engeneering, architecture or any other profession without a license? why then is it suddenly ok to do so with medicine?
Akronviper
01-21-2007, 09:02 PM
Also I must respectfully disagree with AkronViper on several points...Or has he actually trained under Allen, on GD's material, in the past; rather than just going by word-of-mouth?
The bulk of Allen's material did *not* come from Ong.
:)
I have done some G.D. material in the past (2 semesters in college through their Kung Fu Club at Akron U). I have an uncle and cousin who both have studied under Allen. My father and other uncle have both trained under Ong and were around in the Hop Sing days. I have also trained shortly under Kreuger (one of Ongs students like Allen) and I have a couple freinds who study under Waisel currently.
None of these people can say who Allen has definatly studied under besides Ong except for Chang which I know is wrong. I have yet to have a GD student clear this up.
I'm not saying that Allen is a bad martial artist (he would woop my a**), but he does not personanly know much of the material they sell, which is evident from the responses in this thread and common sense will tell you that know one can be proficeint enough in that many arts that they sell as teaching materials.
Generally speaking to understand an art enough that you could teach it you would at least spend 10 or so grueling years learning it. There isnt that much time from when Allen left Ong in 76 to 78 to learn that much stuff by the mid 80's when they began seling tapes.
Allen is a smart man when it comes CMA and he is thirsty for knowledge and credit is due to him for creating the vast library they have. Just dont pass them as being the best performance ever. They show the art, but if you learn from a tape of that quality you will get hurt in the streets. Heck I own probablly 10 GD vids but I take them at face value
And please no one take what i'm saying as attack on anyone, just giving my info, oppion and looking for answers.
Golden Arms
01-22-2007, 11:49 AM
In this day and age, with youtube and other easy information just a click away, I am always amazed at how people can argue things like this so blindly. Yes you can learn a bunch of martial arts on the surface level and do them by rote (the forms), but that has nothing to do with mastery over said arts, each could take a lifetime, including boxing, wrestling, etc. They all also have their own unique postural requirements, mindsets, etc that need to be developed, and these are just as much the arts the "moves" are.
And the Qi/Chi stuff spouted here was pretty typical nebulous stuff so far...Except for Cjurakpt, he said it pretty well. There is a pdf any one of you can download that has a great discourse on Chi and the chinese views on what it is, I would recommend anyone serious about furthering their knowledge of what it is, take a quick read, it will help you out a lot if you dont speak/read the native chinese languages.
it can be found here:
http://www.hkhunggar.com/chi.htm
Some good Bak Mei for example, can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Gr5ae2EEI
And here: (This one is worth the wait)
http://www.6rooms.com/watch/105606.html
Contrast those body mechanics with what you see in the GD videos, and maybe you can see why people are saying its poorly done Chinese martial art.
MonkeyKingUSA
01-22-2007, 02:36 PM
Cjurakpt,
Thank you for your very up front and clear answers! :)
As I said my post was not meant to offend, just to ask where you got your authority to speak so definitively on the subject. Looking at the background that you offer I think that you do have the authority to offer your opinion with authority.
Thank you again for your polite responce!
Richard A. Tolson
cjurakpt
01-22-2007, 02:44 PM
MK
You are welcome; again, you asked very appropriate questions in a straightforward manner and there was no offense perceived or taken in the least
Hi cjurakpt
I quite like your definition of qi as a "descriptive metaphor for a set of functional interelationships in the body."
Makes a lot of sense and cuts through a lot of the mysticism.
But I was wondering, if qi is not actually an independent energy or "substance" for lack of a better word, what does that mean about qi cultivation methods? Is there then actually such a thing? How do you cultivate something wihich is just a metaphor?
ChuangkTzu
01-29-2007, 12:31 PM
Iron Tiger:
Would you happen to know if Sifu Allen trained with Willem Reeders? Reeders was raised in Indonesia (Java) and was Dutch/Chinese. Reeders was trained by his great Uncle Liu Siong who taught both Kung-Fu and Kuntao. I've been told Reeder's often referred to his uncle's art as Southern Shaolin, an older version of Hung Gar. There are two main reasons I feel Allen most likely trained with Reeders.
1. I know he trained with Ting Fong Wong in Buffalo N.Y. He would no doubt have heard of Reeders during his time in Western N.Y. Both masters were legendary in that area. (Reeders taught in Dunkirk N.Y.) Both Reeders and Allen shared a love for weapons. I know Reeders' favorite weapons were the Chinese Iron Rulers or Sai-type weapon. GD teaches two master's level sai-type weapon sets (Double Iron Rulers Seek the Tiger, and Double Iron Rulers Seek the Dragon). In the GD brochure, their description states the sets come from the little known Wanderer's style which is a Southern Shaolin derivative. A friend of mine witnessed Master Reeders demonstrate more than one sai form and said his performce was phenomenal. Most likely the two forms mentioned above were passed down to Reeders from his great uncle.
2. I became good friends with two people who trained in Reeders' system. One trained with Reeders himself for over three years (1969-1972) until Reeders moved to Albuquerque, N.M. The other trained with Jerry Bradigan who was an advanced student of Willem Reeders. Back in the late 80's and early 90's nobody I knew except for the two guys I later befriended was aware of the 3 cardinal priciples of Chinese fighting: Crossing your opponents centerline at the earliest opportunity, using the "three-count minimum" in both attack and defense and using the principle of constant penetration. They not only understood it, but described it very close to the way I learned it on the Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting Video Tape. Both had never even heard of Green Dragon. Later after having trained at Chung Sing and after talking to numerous others who trained in the Kwan Ying Do system, nobody really understood the significance of these three principles. They went on to say it was never taught.
I have enjoyed your posts and look forward to your take on the above question.
Thank you,:)
Chuang Tzu
ChuangkTzu
01-29-2007, 12:52 PM
I've gotten to meet and in some cases know, many of the people mentioned in this thread. As a result, this has been a fun read. I'm finally going to take some time to give my own two cents.
I first became aware of Green Dragon and Sifu Allen from his ads in IKF magazine and his subsequent articles. I found it refreshing to actually read a well-written article in a martial arts magazine. I enjoyed his articles so much, I placed my first order in the late 1980's. I still remember the first time I watched the Fundamentals of Empty Hand fighting video. After all these years, I still think it is one of the best videos on the market for the principles it contains. I really don't think GD has gotten the credit they deserve for raising the bar on martial arts instructional videos. They were really the first to show multiple views, including by segments, in addition to a complete program of combat applications. I also always enjoyed the narration Sifu Allen provided on all his videos. So even if you don't like GD or agree with their form, body alignment, combat applications, etc., I think they forced their competitors to increase the instructional quality of their videos.
After having purchased many of their videos, I actually started in their Kung-Fu club at Kent State University. I think there were approximately 80 people who started, and only 6-7 of us made it through the almost 3 month probationary period, and into the main studio. I felt a great deal of satisfaction being invited into the main studio. A few others made it through the physical demands of the club, but were not invited into the main studio because of their attitude. I really don't have anything negative to say about my experience there. In fact, if Sifu Allen hadn't moved to Edinburg, I might still be there. One observation I would make however, is that in my opinion, the reason their "women make monkeys out of the men" as Sifu Allen has often said, is because over the long haul, most men aren't going to put up with his organizational pyramid bull****. A new or intermediate student could never go up to Sifu Allen and initiate a conversation. You had to go through the senior students first. They would ask Allen if they thought your question was "worthy". They would then come back and give you his answer. Very military-like and after awhile, that has got to get old. In any event, they definitely train hard and run a very organized and structured school.
ChuangkTzu
01-29-2007, 01:16 PM
After it was announced, Sifu Allen was moving to Edinburg, I needed to find a closer place to train. I had a good friend who was learning Tai Chi at Bob Kreuger's Yee Sing School. He highly recommended this school, so I decided to check it out. It was located at 779 N. Main Street in Akron. I have to admit, the studio itself was really cool. It was up on the 3rd floor of an old Masonic Temple. The training floor was huge and there was raised theater-like seating surrounding it. The people there seemed friendly and the whole atmosphere had a nice vibe to it. I told Mr. Kreuger that my friend had recommended his school and he was very cordial and polite. I thought to myself "this might be my new Kung-Fu school". Then class started, and it became apparent that it wouldn't be. The opening warm-up was semi-structured i.e. stances, etc., but the rest of the class was like the blind leading the blind. There was NO instruction. The students were trying to remember moves of a form they were working on, and it was almost painful to watch. Half way through the class, one of Mr. Kreuger's advanced students performed Fa Kuen and Gok Fee Kuen. In all fairness, the guy did a pretty nice job. Then he and Mr. Kreuger went back to Kreuger's office and left the students on their own again. Coming from GD (order and structure), I just couldn't stomach that.
I had passed Alex Wasil's Wing Sing School on my way to Kreuger's School. The following week, I went to check it out. At GD, we were required to bring a training manual to all classes. Out of habit, I brought a notebook with me to take notes of the class. Looking back, it was very funny. Alex Wasil thought I was a spy from another school since I was taking notes. He brought me into his office to interrogate me. His studio was dark and depressing and his students (including his son) seemed to be genuinely intimidated by him. The quality of his students was poor in my opinion. I was very depressed when I got home that evening, knowing there was no way I could train at either of those schools. If I couldn't be at GD, I at least wanted to train in the Kwan Ying Do system, because of all the stories I had heard Sifu Allen tell of Master Ong. I went to the Yellow Pages and began to search. That is were I found the Chung Sing School of Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Mr. Kreuger's and Al Wasil's large yellow page ads, Chung Sing only had one line. I called and spoke with Mr. Bob Keen. I asked permission to watch a class and he said I should come by whenever it was convenient for me. I went to a Tuesday night class and was impressed. Sifu Allen demanded a student's respect. Mr. Keen didn't, but had it nevertheless. I was so impressed that a man in his mid 60's at the time (now 77), was doing everything the students were doing ie. low stances, opening warm-up, arm grabs, three star, etc.
Running out of time, I will finish post later tonight or tomorrow.
Chuang Tzu
ChuangkTzu
01-30-2007, 11:08 AM
A continuation from my previous posting.
At Chung Sing, we learned many tokens or forms. Mr. Keen also taught a lot of line drills similar to what GD shows on their opening warm-up tape. I always enjoyed his line drills and what he referred to as "Pier 9" or fighting techniques. Although the 3 cardinal principles of Chinese fighting were not taught, most of his fighting techniques contain their principles nevertheless. Mr. Keen was always generous with his time and very patient. I don't ever remember seeing him in a bad mood. You also never heard him say a bad word about anybody. He might be the most humble man I've ever met. It is funny, I've met many people from the different Kwan Ying Do schools, and I have never heard anyone from those schools say anything negative about Mr. Keen. Without a doubt, that is not the case with the others: Allen, Chicoine, Kreuger, and Wasil. When the other men were brought up, it was all or nothing. The people either love them, or couln't stand them. I'll always have fond memories of my time spent at Chung Sing.
Chuang Tzu
ChuangkTzu
01-30-2007, 11:26 AM
The first time I saw Stephen Ong perform, my first thought was "he doesn't move like the other Kwan Ying Do people I've seen" (GD included). When Stephen demonstrates a form, he produces a coordinated, explosive, Fa-Jing-type power. The first time I saw Mike Biggie perform, my response was "Whoa!". Biggie produces the same explosive power, but in my opinion, it is even more evident.
It is obvious Sifu Allen, his GD students, and many of the Kwan Ying Do people have a healthy measure of external strength. I think Royal Dragon is accurate, however, when he describes GD's body alignment and structure. There is no doubt their strength developing forms (Goun Gee Kuen, Teet Lo Han Chin Ch'uan, and Stone Warrior) have paid dividends for them. It's obvious they can generate power, even from unorthodox positions. Is this desireable? Yes. Would I rather have the explosive Fa-Jing power Biggie and Ong possess? ABSOLUTELY! I feel GD and Chung Sing have much to offer. Knowing what I know now, however, it would have been nice to have started training with Biggie from the getgo.
Mike is dedicated to Kung-Fu and he is not afraid to share and teach his knowledge. His power transfers to weapons work as well. I remember stopping by late one Thursday night when he was in the process of opening his new school. He happened to be putting some of his weapons up on the wall. As I walked in, he was holding a Tiger Fork. This wasn't a wushu model, this sucker looked and later felt heavy. I asked him if he liked the Tiger Fork, and his response was "Do you want me to show you?" He proceeded to do a form. It was impressive. I have a copy of a Kwan Ying Do demonstration from 1983. On the tape, Al Wasil demonstrates a Tiger Fork form. It was like grade school compared to Mike's performance. Mike plays both Praying Mantis and Choy Li Fut. Although he is equally adept at both, I really enjoy watching him play his Choy forms. He knows his applications as well. I first became acquainted with Mike through a guy I met who had been a Yee Sing student for many years. He had attained black belt status, but learned he couldn't apply any of it when he met Mike. Biggie will play hands with you, and feed you back the amount of energy you feed him. It's a humbleing experience, but at the same time, a real eye-opener. I think North-East Ohio is fortunate to have someone of Mike's caliber teaching openly. Got to run.
Chuang Tzu
iron tiger
01-30-2007, 11:56 AM
There is no doubt their strength developing forms (Goun Gee Kuen, Teet Lo Han Chin Ch'uan, and Stone Warrior) have paid dividends for them
But why not you??
Knifefighter
01-30-2007, 11:58 AM
The first time I saw Stephen Ong perform, my first thought was "he doesn't move like the other Kwan Ying Do people I've seen" (GD included). When Stephen demonstrates a form, he produces a coordinated, explosive, Fa-Jing-type power. The first time I saw Mike Biggie perform, my response was "Whoa!". Biggie produces the same explosive power, but in my opinion, it is even more evident.
It is obvious Sifu Allen. his GD students, and many of the Kwan Ying Do people have a healthy measure of external strength.
He proceeded to do a form. It was impressive.
You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.
Royal Dragon
01-30-2007, 12:14 PM
You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.
Reply]
That is not nessasarily true. You can look and see how well rooted they are, and how structurally aligned they are. You can watch thier movement and see if they have good mechanics or not. If they do, you know they have functional power, if the don't, you know they don't have it.
If you have someone who is clearly strong (Benchs 450 for example), but does not have funtional use of that strength, the first thing a good coach looks at is his structural alignment, and body mechancis. It is a visable thing that simple observation can spot.
Of course, if you are physically weak to begin with, even if your structure and mechanics are perfect, you still need to do some sort of progressive resistance exercises to develop your strength in the first place.
Propper structure, and mechanics are what makes Strength functional, or not. You can clearly see that in empty hand movement. You can't really judge fighting skills by looking at a persons form, but you can definately judge functional strength, and coach it's improvement through observation.
Black Jack II
01-30-2007, 12:20 PM
If you have someone who is clearly strong (Benchs 450 for example), but does not have funtional use of that strength, the first thing a good coach looks at is his structural alignment, and body mechancis. It is a visable thing that simple observation can spot.
Bench is bad choice for that statement bro. Bench is a compound movement which is all about functional strength. A better statement may be a isolation curl or something.
Knifefighter
01-30-2007, 12:22 PM
That is not nessasarily true. You can look and see how well rooted they are, and how structurally aligned they are. You can watch thier movement and see if they have good mechanics or not. If they do, you know they have functional power, if the don't, you know they don't have it.
That's what the B.S. forms people would like everyone to believe.
And that's exactly the reason so many TMA people get completely schooled when they fight a fighter.
Royal Dragon
01-30-2007, 12:40 PM
A Bench does not really engage the whole body, Just the upper body. Functional strength is basically useable strength, which mean the whole body must move in harmony, not isolation. The Curl however is an even better example than mine, as it isolates even more then a bench does.
That's what the B.S. forms people would like everyone to believe.
And that's exactly the reason so many TMA people get completely schooled when they fight a fighter.
Reply]
No, not really. Bad coaching is the real reason. Not enough two man application practice, and not enough resisting free sparring. Guys that do all that fight really well, as you can see in San Shou.
Many modern martial art schools are catering to the beginner/health/ hobby market. You cannot compare them to fight schools. A good fight school will produce fighters, it does not matter wheather they teach TCMA, or some form of MMA.
iron_silk
01-30-2007, 01:55 PM
You cannot tell if someone has functional power by watching him do a form.
From my limited experience when I see practicioners from the same schools (and different schools) perform a fist set (etc) I do notice a difference.
I notice those who actively spar and those who do not tend to play their set differently. Now this isn't completely true in every case but there seems to be a trend that if they to apply and spar they seem to perform their set with more aggressive manner than those who do not.
I verified by asking the practicioners. I may be wrong but has anybody else notice this?
Black Jack II
01-30-2007, 02:35 PM
Royal,
Could it be your confusing functional strength with a overall display of focused athletics?
Mas Judt
01-30-2007, 03:19 PM
I think you need to ask 'functional' for what?
RD - you are referring to 'refined' strength - KF - is talking about using it in a fight. (I think, based on his previous posts)
If you really want to know if you can project your 'refined' strength and make it truly 'functional' - free-fighting can go a long way to helping you make what you are trying to do real.
A continuation from my previous posting.
At Chung Sing, we learned many tokens or forms. Mr. Keen also taught a lot of line drills similar to what GD shows on their opening warm-up tape. I always enjoyed his line drills and what he referred to as "Pier 9" or fighting techniques. Although the 3 cardinal principles of Chinese fighting were not taught, most of his fighting techniques contain their principles nevertheless. Mr. Keen was always generous with his time and very patient. I don't ever remember seeing him in a bad mood. You also never heard him say a bad word about anybody. He might be the most humble man I've ever met. It is funny, I've met many people from the different Kwan Ying Do schools, and I have never heard anyone from those schools say anything negative about Mr. Keen. Without a doubt, that is not the same with the others: Allen, Chicoine, Kreuger, and Wasil. When the other men were brought up, it was all or nothing. The people either love them, or couln't stand them. I'll always have fond memories of my time spent at Chung Sing.
Chuang Tzu
Sorry you had to through the painful process of seeing the bad off-shoots of Master Ong's School. ( I could have saved you the trouble if we knew each other)
Bob Keen IS one of the nicest , most polite AND proficient martial artists and human being I have ever met and the had the privilage of trianing under. The last time I saw him was his 70th Birthday Party during Chinese New Year at the Silver Pheasant Restuarant in Stow. He still looked great.
I decided to try and "take him on" one time in class ( friendly and respectful of course) in 3 Star Blocking Exercise. He was about 68 at the time.
I had gotten the reputation of being pretty strong with my technigues and was asked to do a demonstration as a White Belt/
Anyways....to put it simply..MY FOREARMS STILL ACHE FROM THAT FOOLISH ATTEMPT OF MINE :eek:
He didnt bully me ( although he had every right) he simply matched..and then took it up a notch everytime I did. I tell you I used my waist, legs, low stance, everything thing I knew to generate power...while this 68 year old man reamained calm and nearly broke my arm!!!!!!!!!!!:o
As for Stephen Ong...all one has to do is watch him teach or perform a token to KNOW beyond any doubt that he has functional, expolsive, quick, fexible
and devesating power and speed.
I remember a particuliar "Fish Token" he performed at a demonstration when he was about 19. WOW. He literally took the entire audience by surprise as he seemed to effortlessly leap 6 feet into the air,spin 180 degree's while being horizontle to the ground,with his ankles crossed and land as softly as a Cat. ( I later learned that particuliar move's martial application was wrapping your legs around your opponents head and twisting his neck , thereby flipping his body !:eek:
Bob Keen is an instructor who has taught in obscurity and desired no fame or noteriety, I think its time I visit him.
I too have very fond memories of Chung Sing...and I can almost assure you that if I walked in tonight Bob would say " Where the hell ya been? get your ass out here and and start working out!" while flashing that sublte grin of his.
JDK
ChuangkTzu
01-31-2007, 09:21 AM
Bob Keen IS one of the nicest , most polite AND proficient martial artists and human being I have ever met and the had the privilage of trianing under. The last time I saw him was his 70th Birthday Party during Chinese New Year at the Silver Pheasant Restuarant in Stow. He still looked great. JDK
I could be wrong, but I remember his 70th birthday party being at the Galaxy Restaurant in Wadsworth. He sure doesn't look his age, does he?
ChuangkTzu
01-31-2007, 09:49 AM
At a Q&A session I was attending (also on the Q&A video tapes), Sifu Allen mentioned having an extensive film library of Master Feeman Ong. Evidently, they had yearly demonstrations, which Allen helped film. He spoke of the huge difference between Ong and the so-called "celebrity masters" on the west coast (Ong being much better). After seeing his son Stephen perform, I regret never having had the privilege of seeing the Master Ong footage. At the end of the 1983 Kwan Ying Do demonstation video, Master Ong does break numerous bamboo rods (which are being held up only with newspaper), without ripping the paper. Unfortunately, there is no forms footage of Master Ong on this tape, due to a severe ankle sprain he sustained a few weeks earlier. You see him favoring his ankle as he walks up to the bamboo rods, and he actually slips and falls at one point during the rod-breaking performance.
I'd be curious if anybody in this forum has seen the footage, or has witnessed Master Feeman Ong perform live.
It has often been questioned on this forum if Allen really did train with Ark Wong. He mentioned it more than once at the Q&A sessions I had attended. I don't remember if he mentions that on the Q&A video tapes. If I remember correctly, he started, during his summer vacations, making treks out to California to train with Wong. I think he stated he had been with Ong approximately 4 years when he started training with Wong. He always spoke highly of Wong, and agreed with him regarding many things, including weapons training: You don't need years of empty-hand forms to be able to start weapons training. I have corresponded with a guy who trains in the Five Family/Five Animal Style. He told me he highly doubted Allen trained with Wong prior to watching the Q&A video tapes. After watching the tapes, he feels almost positive he DID train with Wong.
Chuang Tzu
ChuangkTzu
01-31-2007, 09:49 AM
At a Q&A session I was attending (also on the Q&A video tapes), Sifu Allen mentioned having an extensive film library of Master Feeman Ong. Evidently, they had yearly demonstrations, which Allen helped film. He spoke of the huge difference between Ong and the so-called "celebrity masters" on the west coast (Ong being much better). After seeing his son Stephen perform, I regret never having had the privilege of seeing the Master Ong footage. At the end of the 1983 Kwan Ying Do demonstation video, Master Ong does break numerous bamboo rods (which are being held up only with newspaper), without ripping the paper. Unfortunately, there is no forms footage of Master Ong on this tape, due to a severe ankle sprain he sustained a few weeks earlier. You see him favoring his ankle as he walks up to the bamboo rods, and he actually slips and falls at one point during the rod-breaking performance.
I'd be curious if anybody in this forum has seen the footage, or has witnessed Master Feeman Ong perform live.
It has often been questioned on this forum if Allen really did train with Ark Wong. He mentioned it more than once at the Q&A sessions I had attended. I don't remember if he mentions that on the Q&A video tapes. If I remember correctly, he started, during his summer vacations, making treks out to California to train with Wong. I think he stated he had been with Ong approximately 4 years when he started training with Wong. He always spoke highly of Wong, and agreed with him regarding many things, including weapons training: You don't need years of empty-hand forms to be able to start weapons training. I have corresponded with a guy who trains in the Five Family/Five Animal Style. He told me he highly doubted Allen trained with Wong prior to watching the Q&A video tapes. After watching the tapes, he feels almost positive he DID train with Wong.
Chuang Tzu
iron tiger
01-31-2007, 10:36 AM
I think he stated he had been with Ong approximately 4 years when he started training with Wong
One of many possible examples of why some peoples' "timelines" given in this thread regarding Sifu Allen's training/acquisition of Chinese forms is incorrect.
Among many other assumptions & presumptions & outright little white lies.
;)
And ChuangkTzu, it does strike me as somewhat curious that you would've trained at Green Dragon for any amount of time without exposure to power sets or exercises aside from those alluded to in the articles & tapes; let alone the lack of reference to some of the benefits such exercises/programs provide---for students who stick 'em out---over & above the merely 'external' ones.
Just an observation.
:confused:
Nevertheless, good luck to you in your own training et al.
:)
I could be wrong, but I remember his 70th birthday party being at the Galaxy Restaurant in Wadsworth. He sure doesn't look his age, does he?
I could be wrong which birthday I attended with my wife ( she went to School with Stephen at Norton) but yes.....he doesnt look anywhere near his age.
JDK
What is the truth behind why Green Dragon's column was dropped from Inside Kung Fu?
When it happened, the editor claimed that it was merely the result or reorganising or format change.
However, Allen has said that it was as the result of several high profile Chinese teachers on the West Coast that had demanded that IKF stop his column.
What's the truth?
And who were these prominent and influential West Coast Chinese teachers? Doc Fai Wong and Adam Hsu maybe?
Another thing: I have found an old advert in IKF showing the photo of Chang Tung Sheng between Allen and Chicoine and it does indeed look like the background wall under Chang's arm is different to the rest of the picture! Was that photo actually doctored after all?
.... After seeing his son Stephen perform, I regret never having had the privilege of seeing the Master Ong footage. At the end of the 1983 Kwan Ying Do demonstation video, Master Ong does break numerous bamboo rods (which are being held up only with newspaper), without ripping the paper. Unfortunately, there is no forms footage of Master Ong on this tape, due to a severe ankle sprain he sustained a few weeks earlier. You see him favoring his ankle as he walks up to the bamboo rods, and he actually slips and falls at one point during the rod-breaking performance.
I'd be curious if anybody in this forum has seen the footage, or has witnessed Master Feeman Ong perform live.
Chuang Tzu
I was at that very Demonstration!! It was held in the Auditorium of Catholic Church/School in Akron.
And you are right, Master Ong had sprained his ankle and yet still broke most of the bamboo rods with his Sword, until he slipped and fell...but he got up, and finished slicing the last 2 or 3 rods.
Also, that was the first time I witnessed Bob Keen have the point of a sharp sword placed on his throat, while a student broke a concrete Slab over his back.
I remember going down to the demo area with my buddy and showed him the sharpness of the spear...the slight read spot on Bob's throat..and also the Bricks that had been broken with a side knife-hand..ala Gene Chicione.
http://www.shuaichiao.com/
It was a good night I will never forget..and only served to help me train harder
so I could be in the next Demonstration.
I believe Master Ong's Daughters performed that night also.and they were great in their own right. Smooth, flexible, quick and explosive.
JDK
Piercinghammer
01-31-2007, 08:47 PM
Interesting thing, a friend of mine who was the last person to be promoted to black sash level by Feeman Ong related the story from the County Coronor
that the sprained ankle and the fall at that demo in 1983 where the two things that probably killed Feeman.
Apparently Feeman was a diabetic and would not take his insulin unless he absolutely had to. It was said that he probably had a clot in his leg and the fall
at the demo started it moving. A few days later....... well, the late Feeman Ong.
Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang tai Chi
ChuangkTzu
02-01-2007, 08:23 AM
[. If I remember correctly, he started, during his summer vacations, making treks out to California to train with Wong. I think he stated he had been with Ong approximately 4 years when he started training with Wong. He always spoke highly of Wong, and agreed with him regarding many things, including weapons training: You don't need years of empty-hand forms to be able to start weapons training. I have coresponded with a guy who trains in the Five Family/Five Animal Style. He told me he highly doubted Allen trained with Wong prior to watching the Q&A video tapes. After watching the tapes, he feels almost positive he DID train with Wong.
Chuang Tzu[/QUOTE]
That's why I started the sentence with "If I remember correctly", and not "I know for a fact". In any event, I took notes at all the Q&A sessions I attended, and like the Q&A tapes, I feel I learned a lot from them. Who knows, I might even have the dates and timelines in my notes. My point was, it has often been questioned in this forum if Allen really did train with Ark Wong. It has always been my opinion that he did.
Since you seem to know so much about GD and Sifu Allen, maybe you could help us all out and give us the actual timeline. :)
Chuang Tzu
ChuangkTzu
02-01-2007, 08:55 AM
[QUOTE=iron tiger;
And ChuangkTzu, it does strike me as somewhat curious that you would've trained at Green Dragon for any amount of time without exposure to power sets or exercises aside from those alluded to in the articles & tapes; let alone the lack of reference to some of the benefits such exercises/programs provide---for students who stick 'em out---over & above the merely 'external' ones.
Just an observation.
:confused:
Nevertheless, good luck to you in your own training et al.
:)[/QUOTE]
I'd be happy to elaborate if you could oblige and answer my question first.
You know, the one posted 3 days ago regarding Sifu Allen and Willem Reeders;)
Chuang Tzu
iron tiger
02-01-2007, 12:51 PM
I'd be happy to elaborate
Didn't ask you to. It was just an observation.
;)
& fwiw: Nor was the timeline comment addressed to you.
IronWeasel
02-03-2007, 10:06 AM
To those of you who know Bob Keen and Stephen Ong, why don't you rerer them to this forum and ask them to post once in a while. That would provide a good knowledge base and keep some of those 'speculation threads' from getting too long.
mickey
02-06-2007, 01:55 AM
Greetings,
I think Royal Dragon is right on this one: iron tiger is Sifu Allen.
mickey
ChuangkTzu
02-06-2007, 01:00 PM
Greetings,
I think Royal Dragon is right on this one: iron tiger is Sifu Allen.
mickey
Mickey,
I think most of the people following this thread feel the same way. So
as far as I'm concerned,he can post as Iron Tiger, IronWeasel or Lotus Storm, it
makes no difference to me. I do enjoy his insights however, so I hope he continues posting.
Chuang Tzu
IronWeasel
02-06-2007, 05:45 PM
Hi, guys...
FYI, I seriously doubt that Iron Tiger is Sifu Allen. If it's that important to you, maybe he'll identify himself. You can always ask.
Iron tiger sounds more like a Green Dragon student who enjoyed his experience there and is just encouraging others to see the positive.
Royal Dragon
02-06-2007, 06:17 PM
But his writing style is exactly the way Allen speaks on his tapes...
IronWeasel
02-06-2007, 06:35 PM
But his writing style is exactly the way Allen speaks on his tapes...
It is similar. Sifu Allen is a very good speaker and instructor. He organizes his thoughts well and can convey information in an effective manner.
I think that Iron Tiger's writing style is similar because he is using some of Allen's exact phrases. I do too, if I can't think of a better way to say it, or if paraphrasing doesn't paint as good a picture.
ChuangkTzu
02-07-2007, 08:08 AM
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;733283]Iron Tiger, you make many claims as if you have seen these things first hand; whom did you train with? Did you train with Chang or Ong? What knowledge of other styles/sifu do you have, to say these things?
If he won't respond to questions like these, what makes you think he
would identify himself? I think it's pretty obvious that Iron Tiger is sifu Allen.
Just like he was Lotus Storm in 2005.
Chuang Tzu
mickey
02-07-2007, 11:11 AM
Well,
I hope that he does come back to the forum and share his viewpoints.
mickey
iron tiger
02-08-2007, 03:57 PM
iron tiger is Sifu Allen
I think most of the people following this thread feel the same way. So
as far as I'm concerned,he can post as Iron Tiger, IronWeasel or Lotus Storm
Darn split-personality must be acting up again!
Sorry, guys; I'm just me.
Although I do know lotus storm, we train together at (rare) times and have corresponded often.
iron tiger
02-08-2007, 04:05 PM
I hope that he does come back to the forum
:D
and share his viewpoints
Not going to happen.
Did it on a challenge (from lotus storm, in fact). Awoke a sadder, but wiser, man just a few morns later.
ChuangkTzu
02-09-2007, 12:10 PM
Darn split-personality must be acting up again!
.
Maybe the split-personality is the result of being a frustrated paratrooper.:D
ChuangkTzu
02-09-2007, 12:19 PM
!
Sorry, guys; I'm just me.
.
Whatever. :rolleyes:
If you want to believe we're that naive, so be it. What remains obvious however, is that Iron Tiger IS Sifu Allen. But Lotus Storm, hmmm... maybe he's Allen's mini-me.:D
Chuang Tzu
Li Ma-Keh
02-14-2007, 11:13 PM
Ni hao, I am an old' Hep-Sing/Green Dragon student. I was there for aprx. 8yrs., and 'my' experiance there was Very positive! The Southern Shao-Lin/Tien Shan Pai style strength-training was incredibly hard! The foundation it laid for the other styles I trained in was thee' Best! Si-Fu Allen was as strong as an Ox,..as well as Master Ong! I left Si-Fu Allens' school in a professional/friendly way, in-order to pursue Jazz Guitar at Y.S.U., then trained with Coach-Jimmy Yee in Chicago,.. now I'm an 'indoor' 13yr. student of Si-Fu Nick Gracenin's. So, I've seen alot of things in my 35yrs. of training, and 'my' comment is; Try it, experiance it first, then judge it. i would bet that most of you poisen-pen people that spend too much time on youtube',.lol', wouldn't be able to keep up with the training at Green Dragon. Master Ong trained at 'Bai-Yun Tsz',(White Cloud Temple) in Southern China and also with Master Gao Dao-Sheng in Taiwan. Just because 'you' don't see something that looks familiar or the 'same' as you're used to seeing, doesn't mean it isn't authentic. Every town & village in China & Tai-Wan has a little different 'take' on many styles! The thighs-parallel stances of Master Gaos',( known back then as Master Koas' Stances), alone' would send most of you home! So,Train Hard,...HARDER!,...lol' Dzi Djyen, Li Ma-Keh
Royal Dragon
02-15-2007, 03:52 AM
I used to do thigh parallel Horse for 10 minutes and not break a sweat...ur too easily impressed me thinks...
Iron Ma Bu btw is actually much harder just a bit above parallel...
Li Ma-Keh
02-15-2007, 07:11 AM
uhm',..Iron Horse-Stance is 'one' stance,..lol'! Master Kao's Stances included NINE different stances, sided to side, for five mins.' each! Don't take my word for it,..ask ANY 'Green Dragon alumni! Like I stated; 'just because it is something you don't know about, doesn't mean it isn't REAL',....Try it first, then judge it'. uh',..oh yeah' 'Me Thinks',...lol'. Li Ma-Keh.
uhm',..Iron Horse-Stance is 'one' stance,..lol'! Master Kao's Stances included NINE different stances, sided to side, for five mins.' each! Don't take my word for it,..ask ANY 'Green Dragon alumni! Like I stated; 'just because it is something you don't know about, doesn't mean it isn't REAL',....Try it first, then judge it'. uh',..oh yeah' 'Me Thinks',...lol'. Li Ma-Keh.
Thank you Li Ma-Keh.....you saved me a post and took the words right out of my mouth~;)
JDK
Royal Dragon
02-15-2007, 08:20 AM
Choy Lay Fut's 18 Louhan hands is THIRTY SIX postures held 10 minutes each (18 done both sides).....you are too easily impressed. :rolleyes:
You may not be aware of this, but this is not the 1970's, there is great Kung Fu all over now.
Hell, even Chung Moo Quan did Pargey (9 stances, both sides = 18) holding each for 5 minutes. It's a common practice in Kung Fu. Those who do it wrong end up sucking reall bad like Green Dragon guys do.
Li Ma-Keh
02-15-2007, 11:22 AM
R.D., well',...uh',...whatever! I didn't say Master Gao's stances were the 'ONLY' ones!!?,...geeezsh',...LOL'! I'm aware of what year it is',.( Jhu Nien),..lol' I KNOW there is Great Kung-Fu all around',...that wasn't my point or discussion, Anyway,...'you train the way you want,..& I'll train the way 'I' want. Peace,Li Ma-Keh
ChuangkTzu
02-15-2007, 11:59 AM
Should I remind the world that Allen and Gene got caught with that doctored photo they used to use, the one where they put Chang in between them to make it seem like Chang endorsed their stuff... or worse, that it was Chang's material
Funny thing how they got caught, they forgot that under Chang's arm the background was different and never touched it up :D
Due to the blizzard-like conditions that swept through Ohio yesterday, I had
the day off like everybody else. I had some time to dig out some old issues
of Inside Kung-Fu magazine and look for the old Green Dragon ad with the
supposed "doctored" photo. If anybody has the Feb 1988 issue ( Master Chicoine
is on the cover), its obvious the photo in the GD ad containing Chang, Chicoine and Allen, has been altered.
There is an article entitled " Controversy Erupts Over Shuai Chiao Leadership"
in the same issue. The article is written by William Barret and Dave Cater. It
contains many photos of Grandmaster Chang courtesy of Master Chicoine,
Daniel Weng, Bob Sbarge and Eric Sbarge. On page 41, one of the photos
courtesy of Master Chicoine, contains both Chicoine and Chang. You can tell
they took this picture, cut Grandmaster Chang out, and placed him in between
Chicoine and Allen in the GD ad photo.
Check it out. Without a doubt, it's the same picture of Chang in both photographs. I'm not questioning Master Chicoine's credentials or those of Sifu Allen for that matter. In fact, the article makes it pretty clear Master Chicoine is the true successor to Grandmaster Chang. I'm only stating that lkfmdc was right. The photo in the ad was definitely altered.
Chuang Tzu
Li Ma-Keh
02-15-2007, 03:01 PM
I seem to remember hearing something about that, but it was after I had left,..whew',..lol' Li Ma-Keh
Akronviper
02-15-2007, 04:16 PM
Do you guys think that the primary reason for stance training is to strenghten the legs. I think that it is a result but the primary use is to build up ones will or ability to perform through pain.
O.T but just a thought
Li Ma-Keh
02-15-2007, 04:47 PM
I agree that it is two-fold!!! Leg strength AND mental/physical Discipline!!! No matter 'whos' stances 'or' postures of any height , you hold,....it's a 'feeling' as explained by C. Jung that the monks had to endure! But,..with excellent results,...again', no matter 'whos' stances/postures/static programs you train under,(as long as the mechanics of healthy posture and alignment are correct). Li Ma-Keh
Royal Dragon
02-15-2007, 06:09 PM
,(as long as the mechanics of healthy posture and alignment are correct). Li Ma-Keh
Reply]
That is just it though, The guys at Green dragon have a totally WRONG body structure, and since the mechanics are built on the structure, their mechanics are wrong too. Who cares how long they hold what, and how much mental fortitude it builds, if it's wrong, it's wrong, and those who practice wrong, no matter how hard they do so...suck.
Stance work is first and foremost to develop good structure and skelital alignment. Building strength, and more so endurance and mental toughness is secondary. If you hold a horse stance for 10 minutes with your back arched, shoulders back, chest out, then you are wrong, and you are reinforceing how wrong you are. Someone who does not hold at all is better off than you because they aren't trying as hard as they can to be as wrong as possible.
Now, the guy who keeps to the principals and holds for 10 minutes is the one who will get all the bennifits, and it will show in everything else they do. What all of the seniors on Green Dragon tapes show, are exagerated erros that are in total opposition to what things should be. You can tell by LOOKING at them they trained very hard under someone unqualified to teach Chinese martial arts, and have perfected every basic alignmental flaw there is to a very high degree.
Li Ma-Keh
02-16-2007, 06:31 AM
R.D., I agree to the point that if your posture is incorrect, you will NOT get the total benefit of the exercise, and in some cases could hurt or injure yourself,ie; small of back, knees, ankles, are the most evident, BUT,...there were/are MANY schools, from China, in the old' days especially, with incorrect posture & alignment issues that can still 'kick-butt',...lol. That doesn't mean that it's 'right',....it just shows that , if 'that' was what was passed-on to the student,...that's what will happen in their forms as well. Now',..I NEVER said that Green Dragon had good posture or correct alignment ,(especially in their Internal sets), BUT,.. they can still kick-butt,...lol'. It might not be as' efficient as someone who has trained with perfect posture,..but, I wouldn't want to stand in the way of a punch.kick or fore-arm block. Most of the posture problems look like people who lift-weights alot and over emphisize the 'Yang',..(and they do',..granted). But, EVERYBODY,..has Yin & Yang issues somewhere,..NOBODY is perfect,....it takes TIME to learn all of the correct structures or advanced-changes in joint line-up that has happened over the last thirty years. Don't forget,..if your instructor doesn't know,...or if his instructor 'won't' tell them,..then it won't get passed on. I've seen many 'Masters' of ALL styles,schools and areas that have 'some' gliches'. But, we train to improve and learn. Everything changes in it's own time, so maybe one day? Li Ma-Keh
ChuangkTzu
02-17-2007, 07:46 PM
At a Q&A session I was attending (also on the Q&A video tapes), Sifu Allen mentioned having an extensive film library of Master Feeman Ong. Evidently, they had yearly demonstrations, which Allen helped film. He spoke of the huge difference between Ong and the so-called "celebrity masters" on the west coast (Ong being much better).
Li Ma-Keh,
I've enjoyed your take on your GD experience. It sounds like you also first fell
in love with kung-fu through GD. Being an indoor disciple of Sifu Gracenin, I'm
sure you have competed in many tournaments. Being with Sifu Allen for 8 years,
I'm sure you've also witnessed Master Ong perform. I'm curious, in your opinion,
is Sifu Allen's assessment accurate?
How would you compare Master Ong to the celebrity masters of today?
Chuang Tzu
Li Ma-Keh
02-18-2007, 02:37 AM
Chang-Tzu, Well, first you have to strip-away the "I witnessed",.from the 'Legendary" stories,...(which may or may-not be true?),....I got to see Master Ong many times , as well as his son & daughters twice,....Master Ong was Very Good at Southern Hand styles, and he was quick as lightning! I witnessed him cutting bamboo rods with a sword,(old clunky' hard sword), that was suspended from strips of Paper, without tearing the paper! I saw the kids' do forms at two different Kung-Fu demos.' ,....the daugthers did Southern style & Stephen did 'modern' Wu-Shu. As I mentioned before,.THEY moved Completely different then the rest of the Kwan Ying Do family,..which led me later-on' to train with Jimmy Yee,(asst.' Coach at Wing-Chun in Chicago),...then Si-Fu Gracenin in '92. Now,...trying to compare Master Ong with 'other' masters,....really each true Master I've witnessed is REALLY good at one or two things ,(which is normal),..and they are all different. I was able to witness Masters'; Chan Tai-San, Madame' Wong Ju-Rong, Chen Xiao-Wang,Bow Sim-Mark,Chang Dang-Shan,He Wei-Chi,...etc.'. Some of them,(including Si-Fu Gracenin), are/were Really good at Several styles ,(keeping the FLAVOR of the style correct!), which is Very hard, because most people in general have a hard time keeping the 'flavor' of the different styles correct! It would be like going to a restaurant, and ordering spagehtti',..& it taste like a cheesburger,...next time you order baked cod & it taste like a cheesburger?,...everything taste the same, even though it is a Master Chef cooking these things,...lol'. Most of us,(including me,..lol), are Happy/Content to get one style to look/move/smell' like it's suppose to,..lol. So, I guess I can't really give a good comparison,...other than than they are ALL better than me,(including the late' Master Ong), ...and I'm no celebraty,..lol'. Li Ma-Keh
Due to the blizzard-like conditions that swept through Ohio yesterday, I had
the day off like everybody else. I had some time to dig out some old issues
of Inside Kung-Fu magazine and look for the old Green Dragon ad with the
supposed "doctored" photo. If anybody has the Feb 1988 issue ( Master Chicoine
is on the cover), its obvious the photo in the GD ad containing Chang, Chicoine and Allen, has been altered.
There is an article entitled " Controversy Erupts Over Shuai Chiao Leadership"
in the same issue. The article is written by William Barret and Dave Cater. It
contains many photos of Grandmaster Chang courtesy of Master Chicoine,
Daniel Weng, Bob Sbarge and Eric Sbarge. On page 41, one of the photos
courtesy of Master Chicoine, contains both Chicoine and Chang. You can tell
they took this picture, cut Grandmaster Chang out, and placed him in between
Chicoine and Allen in the GD ad photo.
Check it out. Without a doubt, it's the same picture of Chang in both photographs. I'm not questioning Master Chicoine's credentials or those of Sifu Allen for that matter. In fact, the article makes it pretty clear Master Chicoine is the true successor to Grandmaster Chang. I'm only stating that lkfmdc was right. The photo in the ad was definitely altered.
Chuang Tzu
Thanks for confirming that.
I must admit, I am rather disappointed in the Green Dragon people for doing that.
This has nothing to do with credentials or ability or strength or anything like that.
But altering a photo like that shows a lack of integrity.
Do you guys think that the primary reason for stance training is to strenghten the legs. I think that it is a result but the primary use is to build up ones will or ability to perform through pain.
O.T but just a thought
In Traditional Chinese Martial Arts...Stance Training is essential.
To try and practice forms or learn to move and fight without first laying the Foundation through Stance Training, will yield far less results than intended by the Old Ways.
Like a House...the Pouring of the Footers and Foundation are what the rest of the Home is built upon. If the Foundation is weak, cracked, or done improperly....EVENTUALLY you will see resulting damage to other parts of the House.
Simple example I use when my son ( who can strike hard and take a good punch but refuses any Martial Arts Training)
I demonstrate this to my 17 year old son (Height 6'2.. weight 205) and my Brother ( Height 6'..Weight 245) by having them hold a Body Shield I have, I tell them to brace themselves..and I strike the Shield with my Legs STRAIGHT, using only my arm and waist power. ( I do both hand and Kick strikes)
Then I strike with the exact same intensity with knees bent, body lowered and centered...and the results are dramatic.
*This Was Kinda Funny*:D
One time I warned my brother, who was standing behind and holding my 60 Pound Heavy Bag suspended from the Ceiling, helping me train...to really brace Himself, because I was going to execute my best front Kick, I had just warmed up for about 30 minutes..and I wanted to do ..well.. I guess the Weighlifting Equivilant of a One Time Maxium Rep Test..before pre-exhasting my Muscles...so ( now remember I warned him twice..and the second time he got annoyed at me and said " Just Kick the **** Bag ...Im braced!!!!!!!:mad:
So I did...:D
Have you ever experienced a particuliar punch or kick where you just hit the sweet spot? ...Got "ALL OF IT"? .....Really got into that one!" I mean timing, Full concenration,my body weight, all my power hitting the Bag at the right second ????
My Weight workout room is a little cramped in that I have the Heavybag about 6 Feet
in front of my Smith Machine and Free weights...I leave the rest of the Basement open for forms, Boxing and my other non-weightlifting workouts..It is usually not a problem.
The Kick knocked him backwards about 7 feet ( one foot too much) and sent him sprawling head over heels into the wall of my Basement (about 15 feet away) after hitting my Smith Machine, Bench Press and some Curl Barls on the Floor.:o
He was furious!!! I said "Jim...I warned you TWICE and you yelled at me to just kick the !#$@ Bag! Why are you mad at me ? He left my house in a huff
and my son started cracking up after he left and we saw he wasnt hurt just his Pride)
Anyways...here is article by Adam Hsu..he touches on the Importance of Stance Training..
http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/int_adamhsu1.htm
JDK
More comprehensive......
http://www.adamhsu.com/classes/classes.htm
JDK
Royal Dragon
02-19-2007, 10:55 AM
I agree on the importance of stance training. Just look at my avatar.
Just found this on Amazon. Is this the famous Stone Warrior program that was written about so much by John Allen and Gene Chicoine of Green Dragon Studios?
http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Chinese-Strength-Health-Program/dp/B0006A5NTC
I have become rather interested in the Stone Warrior program. I recognise that a gain in strength would be very beneficial, and I was impressed by what I read by John Allen regarding the Stone warrior.
mickey
04-09-2007, 10:41 AM
Hi kal,
Same set. This dvd has been out a few years. Sifu John Allen still sells his tapes, by the way. He advertises in IKF.
mickey
Akronviper
04-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Same one, I think this guy just copied the GD tape because it is exactly the same. Alot of his tapes look to be GD copies. Just buy a GD one on ebay for less.
IronWeasel
05-13-2007, 09:53 AM
I remember that photograph. It's the one where Allen still has a beard, right?
I'll see if I can dig one out of my old magazines.
I recall that in the ad that went with that photo, it said Allen was a 7th degree and Chicoine was a 9th degree.
What were those grades actually in? (SC?) and who awarded them?
I hate dragging up old threads, but I recently happened across the IKF ad that everyone said was doctored up. Then I found the original photo of GM Chang.
Check the website:
http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/
Loads and loads of videos and DVDs for sale, although the Stone Warrior looks a bit expensive at $100.
IronWeasel
05-24-2007, 06:46 PM
Yep. Nice site.
Welcome to the 90's
dang, they seem to know a little bit about everything.
Ben Gash
05-25-2007, 03:58 AM
^that's exactly what I thought :rolleyes:
Samurai Jack
05-25-2007, 04:36 AM
I like thier 1000 reps program here:
http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/1000reps.html
I'd like to use it on my Iaido forms.
SaintSage
05-25-2007, 09:09 PM
You do that many reps with Iaido and I think you will transcend Budo, not to mention time and space as well.
Fighting_Lad
09-02-2007, 05:42 PM
on the Iron Vest tape by Green Dragon, I believe that it's Gene who demonstrates it (although I can't understand his name when he says it, but it sounded like Gene Chicoiwhoever)
Iron
Yes, I think this is a valid point. I think Gene probably does demonstrate it - lol I can't understand his name either.
Johnny Tsai
09-02-2007, 06:13 PM
Do either have connection/ties to the Green Dragon Society in Chicago?
RD'S Alias - 1A
09-02-2007, 06:21 PM
No, these are completely different groups.
The Chicago Green Dragons are legendary, The Green Dragon studios in Ohio (Allen's) on the other hand, is known most for copying Forms filmed at competitions and then working them out off the film and selling them from adds in Inside Kung Fu.
I have his Tai Tzu tapes...beyond horrible.
BruceSteveRoy
09-02-2007, 06:39 PM
old thread is old
RD'S Alias - 1A
09-02-2007, 06:56 PM
I love it when 6 year old threads are revived!!
bodhitree
09-02-2007, 07:00 PM
I love it when 6 year old threads are revived!!
fighting lad/mega_fist/mega-foot/mega-warrior/john takeshi discovered how to revive old threads.
Stranger
09-03-2007, 08:17 AM
I have risen.
:wipes dust off:
tyronedaremo
10-22-2007, 02:39 PM
Hello. I saw a few posters on this old thread asking about GDS, but most of them such as Akron viper have no contact information. I also saw a few posts against GDS. Such as the one with negative remarks about GDS long fist forms.
anyhow, if anyone is interested in disscussing GDS with me. my email is tyronedaremo@aol.com. My connection with them is as follows; I spent 3-4 years from about 1982 till 1986 in study with a former student-teacher from GDS from their Chicago location days. this was before their videos were made public and I obtained materials from them only with letter of reccomendation from my teacher in 1985-86. Over the years since they went public i purchased alot of videos to suppliment my own training. I cannot speak for the school , but can happily share from my time and training what information I can provide.
BTW-My training and experience is not limited to GDS, during 1982-1987 I also trained with a teacher who had a jun Fan instructor, jeet kune Do instructor and was a Kempo stylist before learing JKD principles. I also studied Kempo with Earl Marvin, deceased now, but I believe he was either a first of 2nd generation student of Ed Parker. I also studied Nin jitsu , Koga Ryu, under Steve Miller who was a student under Ronald Duncan. I also studied Tae kwon Do under the Alstons who learned from Jhoon Rhee. Aside from these i have also had training in Boxing, Aikido, and Shotokan among other things.
I look forward to any disscussions.
Have a great Day!
Ty
diego
10-22-2007, 02:49 PM
I hate dragging up old threads, but I recently happened across the IKF ad that everyone said was doctored up. Then I found the original photo of GM Chang.
wow, funny how his nipple just hangs out there like a b-porn movie (no disrespect to the master)...:rolleyes:
goofs eveyware
IronWeasel
10-22-2007, 03:50 PM
Hello. I saw a few posters on this old thread asking about GDS, but most of them such as Akron viper have no contact information. I also saw a few posts against GDS. Such as the one with negative remarks about GDS long fist forms.
anyhow, if anyone is interested in disscussing GDS with me. my email is tyronedaremo@aol.com. My connection with them is as follows; I spent 3-4 years from about 1982 till 1986 in study with a former student-teacher from GDS from their Chicago location days.
Chicago days? Are you thinking of the 'Green Dragon Society'?
KC Elbows
10-22-2007, 04:19 PM
Someone needs to start a third green dragon school to maximize the possibilities these threads hold. The new one should promote cocaine usage to achieve one's "taoist pimpdaddy," and teach shaolin mantis catch wrestling.
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