Green Dragon Studios

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed.

..........

[IronWeasel]

Someone needs to start a third green dragon school to maximize the possibilities these threads hold. The new one should promote cocaine usage to achieve one's "taoist pimpdaddy," and teach shaolin mantis catch wrestling.



Too late...it's been done.

They call it Shaolin-Do, don't they?

[Chosen-frozen]

[QUOTE=iron tiger;730087:rolleyes:



Now on to more important matters. Like: Go Buckeyes! (tonight, that is).

:)[/QUOTE]


AMEN!!AMEN!!! Woody Hayes is up in heaven looking down on us all and he STILL hates Michigan...as all right thinking men should.

[teetsao]

does anyone here,use or have ever used green dragon studios, from stow ohio, videos? if you have what do you think of them,ie; teaching modality,validity of material, what were your results?
thanx.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have their IP , their IV and their Stone Warrior.
Well, I should say that I have GM Chicoine's IP and IV THROUGH GD.
The IP and IV are incomplete and we all know why.
The Stone Warrior is OK, I find the Iron Wire Better.
That could be just me.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

They suck. They are very strong, but ultimately that is not enough to compensate for their sheer and utter suckyness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They suck. They are very strong, but ultimately that is not enough to compensate for their sheer and utter suckyness.

he's asking about the videos, not the practioners or your swedish made ***** enlarger.
:D

[shuaichiao]

They're uncoordinated, unskilled and do most of their sets wrong.

[Dale Dugas]

Shuai Chiao,

Give me a call sometime. Would love to meet up as you are very close to where I live.

617-595-8097

[IronWeasel]

They suck. They are very strong,



Yes, yes...the videos are very strong.

[Black Jack II]

swedish made ***** enlarger.

Royal is to cheap to buy a swedish brand, he goes with the much lower grade polish variety that for some odd reason is inserted into the **** hole.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Royal is to cheap to buy a swedish brand, he goes with the much lower grade polish variety that for some odd reason is inserted into the **** hole.

Oi vey !!
:eek:

[IronFist]

I have their IP , their IV and their Stone Warrior.
Well, I should say that I have GM Chicoine's IP and IV THROUGH GD.
The IP and IV are incomplete and we all know why.
The Stone Warrior is OK, I find the Iron Wire Better.
That could be just me.

Why?

Re: Green Dragon: they seem to be one of the only TCMA schools that understands the importance of strength. Whether or not they correctly apply that knowledge is beyond me, tho. I've never sparred with any of them.

[Black Jack II]

I was curious about that to, the Green Dragon peeps, seem to really understand the importance of physical conditioning and the factor it plays out.

You never see them get props for that.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Re: Green Dragon: they seem to be one of the only TCMA schools that understands the importance of strength. Whether or not they correctly apply that knowledge is beyond me, tho. I've never sparred with any of them.

Reply]
I have yet to see a kung fu school that does not have really well conditioned athletes.

[Black Jack II]

I have yet to see a kung fu school that does not have really well conditioned athletes.

LOL.

Your just ****ting around with that statement right?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, Ok, you got me!

Although all the CMA schools I have been in were big on conditioning. I have been in several branches of Master Tsai's system from his old school at Harlem Irving, to the late Master Steven Abatte's school in River Grove to a branch school of Iron Fist, and all were really big on conditioning.

So when you really add it up, pretty much all the CMA schools I have actually been involved in to any extent were all big on conditioning.

[Mas Judt]

I can only judge based on what I've seen:

A Bak Mei tape that looks nothing like Bak Mei, no Bak Mei principles, kinda stupid applications.

A Baji tape that, well wasn't Baji.

A Shuai Chiao tape that pretty much s@cked - but that may have been because it was dumbed down as an 'intro' for the general public. It seemed to me like it s@cked by choice But I could be wrong based on the other tapes.

Some other stuff that looked like some kind of nanquan - that was fun to watch.

The 'rave out' tape where John Allen 'tells it like it is' - and what he has that is good to say is lost by his pounding the table and raving out. I play that one at parties along with the Guy Savelli 'I can turn into a tiger' tape. But you have to be drunk to enjoy them.

I give them props for hardcore conditioning. I think they are misrepresenting themselves with a lot of the tapes - they look like they copied forms without knowing the methods - kind of like Shaolin Do.

Not my cup of tea, but they are not entirely without merit from what I've seen, they just have to get honest on what they really have to offer.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One of the Tai Tzu people I used to have contact with also did Bagua. Actually he was a Bagua guy who also did Tai Tzu. Anyway he has told me on several occasions that Green Dragon filmed him doing a Bagua set at a tournament and them learned the set..intentional marks, erros and left out moves and all...filmed themselves doing the sets and sold the tapes.

[Black Jack II]

I play that one at parties along with the Guy Savelli 'I can turn into a tiger' tape.

Tell me that is not the single greatest thing EVER.:D

The odd thing is, I met some people who have some skill, and they said they once met him in person and the guy seems to be able to handle himself.....must be the D&D lycanthrope abilities

[Mas Judt]

i've heard the same thing. they have even said he's a great guy in person too. just he believes that he can kill goats from a distance.

[IronFist]

I was just searching youtube and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgsKYLfabv4

The rest of the parts are linked from that one. Or you can click these:

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqgT4pKViu8&feature=related

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYLHoaBzlLs&feature=related

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUWPPUJeY0 (this one isn't on the related search sometimes)

I remember when I got this form on VHS way back in the day. I never actually did the form, however.

edit - all these exercises are done for "exactly one minute." How did the ancient kung fu masters keep track of exactly one minute?

Supposedly after 100 days this makes you immune to taking damage in the area around your dan tien and after a year or 3 years or something you cannot be injured by strikes to your torso, and after a while longer it's your whole body.

...and it cuts off right after he says you must eat something afterward. I think on the tape he says to eat a few crackers or something. I can't remember. But I've never heard of any qigong requiring you to eat immediately afterward :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is the man himself, GM Chicoine.
A lot more to IV than is shown, if you are interested in the complete IV program, you can contact Dale Dugas, its the same IV exercises but he also can supply you with the right herbs and such.

[diego]

That is the man himself, GM Chicoine.
A lot more to IV than is shown, if you are interested in the complete IV program, you can contact Dale Dugas, its the same IV exercises but he also can supply you with the right herbs and such.

What's this guy's lineage Sanjuro?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I couldn't even watch the whole thing.

Although the 4th one was more interesting to me. Looks like Choy Lay Fut Qi Gongs, of some sort, to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What's this guy's lineage Sanjuro?

Dale's?
Goes back to GM Chicoine.
GM Chicone is Shuai Chiao

[David Jamieson]

Interesting, but definitely not everything in the IV training that is there.

The Horse stance used is big square horse, so he is basically walking through it and just showing basic shape of some gongs.

Full intensity isn't present although he does mention it.

There was a lot there that I wasn't familiar with and some that I was.

Good find, I imagine they will have it taken down for copyright infringement now. lol

p.s nothing will make you "immune" to anything. I mean, other than vaccinations against vruses. However, this will build on your ability to absorb and shrug off incoming forces.

[Steve Hamp]

I have to chime in on this thread.

I have seen this set many times, I have also seen that it was put on youtube as well. I never learned Iron Vest from the video, I was taught personally. There is more to it than what is shown, but to make a quick comment on what benefits one can receive from this training.

It is true that the exterior will harden, but this can also happen from doing crunches, push ups, and other well known exercises. The real benefit from Iron Vest training, is what you do for your interior.

Here is a article (hopefully not viewed as a shameless plug) that might shed some more light on what I'm getting at as far as Iron Vest training;

http://www.noweightsworkout.com/articles/strengthconditioning.php

I hope this helps,

Steve

[IronFist]

sorry for any typos and lack of capitalization; i'm posting from my blackjack.

1. how will doing IV exercises, which are soft in nature (not requiring much tension) protect u from strikes the same way crunches will?

2. if IV protects u so well, how come professional fighters dont do this kind of training?

i'm just wonderng. i bought both the stone warrior and the iron vest tapes back in the day.

[oasis]

incidentally, they're (http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/sifusbio.htm)

back online

[Steve Hamp]

1. how will doing IV exercises, which are soft in nature (not requiring much tension) protect u from strikes the same way crunches will?

2. if IV protects u so well, how come professional fighters dont do this kind of training?

i'm just wonderng. i bought both the stone warrior and the iron vest tapes back in the day.


1) What happens (even though the exercises are "soft") is the organs are being "lifted" and protected by the ribs, also, the solar plexis becomes very hard.

2) The traditional way takes 1 1/2 hours per day everyday to perform.

Steve

[IronFist]

1) What happens (even though the exercises are "soft") is the organs are being "lifted" and protected by the ribs, also, the solar plexis becomes very hard.

2) The traditional way takes 1 1/2 hours per day everyday to perform.

Steve

1. Can you describe the manner by which the solar plexus becomes very hard?

2. Pro fighters spend more time than that training all day anyway. I'd spend 90 min a day for invulnerability. I don't know why pro fighters don't.

[IronFist]

incidentally, they're (http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/sifusbio.htm)

back online

Awesome. I always wished they had a website back in the day. Now I'm gonna spend some time looking around it.

Regardless of how I feel about TCM, I have always agreed with Green Dragon's philosophies on strength (ie. most people don't have enough to make their techniques work), and so for that reason I always thought they were cool.

edit - I also always loved their c.ocky attitude :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

1. Can you describe the manner by which the solar plexus becomes very hard?

2. Pro fighters spend more time than that training all day anyway. I'd spend 90 min a day for invulnerability. I don't know why pro fighters don't.

From what I gather, because it is "low impact" it takes longer to see results, though theymay be "better and longer term" and they don't "damage" the body like convential methods do.
Most fighters may not have a 2 year career, they look for immediate results.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people always use the example of pro fighters when questioning certain advanced TMA regimes and rightly so in certain ways.
But we have to remember that pro level fighters are looking for the biggest bang for their buck in the shortest period of time.
Many TMA regimes tend to be slow in terms of progression, they are things done for the "long run".
IP, IV, Golden bell are not things that are done for "immediate gratification".
There are other programs designed for that.

[Eric Olson]

incidentally, they're (http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/sifusbio.htm)

back online


I have never heard of either of these CLF forms. And I did a pretty exhaustive cross branch study several years ago.


I Nan Kuen (One South Fist )
$39.95
Choy Li Fut


A physical strength and body hardening form from Choy Li Fut. The set is designed to work the hands, wrists, arms, and shoulders primarily. It concentrates on hardening the bottom (soft area) of the forearms for use in all hook blocking movements, as well as for grip strength for grabbing and any technique involving Crane hand applications. The bottom of the forearms become like concrete in several months of hard work and can then be used as effectively as the ''bridge'' part of the forearm. Simple in structure, but very result producing in a short time! Excellent foundation for the 2-man contact drills listed in Section I.



Dai Hung Kuen (76 Step )
$39.95
Choy Li Fut


Primarily advanced in classification because of the stamina required to complete it while maintaining full power and good speed all the way through. Known in some circles as the 76 Step set, since the master who introduced it from the Orient taught it with that many counts-- it is actually longer! Strong Choy Li Fut influence, especially in stancework, and definitely builds energy into the body over time.

[IronFist]

The only things I've ever seen from Green Dragon are:

- Their intro vid
- Stone Warrior
- Iron Vest
- Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting

Keeping that in mind, I've heard from people on this forum that their forms aren't that good. I've never seen any so I have no comment. I think someone said their Taiji or Bagua was especially bad.

Anyone?

[Henry123]

I'm just curious what do others think of "Green Dragon" videos in general?
They are not making up forms are they???? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only videos I have seen of GD are the ones done by GM Chicoine, the IP and IV ones.
Perfectly fine.
The rest, I have no idea.
Supposedly their "Stone warrior" is comparable to the Iron wire, but even though I have the DVD that a friend sent me, I have yet to see it.
Perhaps I should make the effort to.

[David Jamieson]

I'm just curious what do others think of "Green Dragon" videos in general?
They are not making up forms are they???? :confused:


all forms, regardless of the system are "made up".

Being "made up" doesn't diminish anything. Our entire world that we create and live in is "made up".

Ineffective is the term that should be used and if that is the case, then case in point examples are helpful.


forms nagging is silly. I mean, yeesh, It's a "form" an empty shape that you fill with intention and use as a vehicle to ingrain skills. If it's ineffective in what it produces in you, then you'll be the only one who knows that. :)

well, you and the guy who kicked your ass and everyone who saw him do it that is. :D

[SoCo KungFu]

I've seen some of their stuff

The GD intro vid has some entertainment value. Check out John Allen's right bicep when he's demo'ing the mook jong. :D

That Pa Chi set that I have never seen anyone else perform is done very muscle based. However if you look at Adam Hsu, he has a whipping energy like what you would find in taiji. A pa chi guy I know in FL performs the same way. So take that for what you will.

Stone Warrior set is very yang. I wouldn't say its like Iron Wire. Most breath is done with "ha" sound, which to my understanding is utilizing the "heart" chi. I haven't seen the SW vid though, just someone that had it perform the routine.

I will say this. From the people that are in the demo, they are all quite well built. Although I don't buy for a second to the claim they all got that way strictly from Stone Warrior. From what I can gather of John Allen's intro speech, they do lean to forms a little more than I like. He doesn't speak to much of sparring and such. Although if forms is your preferred flavor, then their form development system is pretty good, you will definitely know your form if you do it like they say to do so.

I do like how John Allen tells it about strength training. I have some of his old articles for the mags he used to write before he got the boot for causing all the controversy. I thought they were pretty cool.

[Yao Sing]

There was a thread about this awhile back with links to some video clips of a few forms and their apps. As I recall most of the opinions ranged from poorly copied forms ripped from other styles to incorrect interpretation of the apps.

Kinda like copying forms from other styles but using your existing style to interpret the moves. Sounded to me like the accusations leveled at Shaolin Do.

Since I don't know anything about the styles those sets came from or how they should be performed (or the associated apps) I can't give an informed opinion but, like SD, it did look like a Karate guy doing Kung Fu. They seemed to be more yang oriented.

On the plus side they did have workable apps for all the moves whether they were 'correct' for the style or not. I always wonder whether that really matters. If you can use a move in a way that's different than the original intent (and it works) does it really matter that it's 'wrong'?

I've seen 'correct' and accepted apps for moves that I can't believe serious fighters still cling to and pass on to others.

Anyhow, do a search for Feeman Ong (?). I think it was in the Southern forum and was an offshoot of the discussion about Ong. Not sure if I got his name right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any links to those articles?

[David Jamieson]

any given move inside of pretty much any given kungfu set will generally and as a rule of thumb have more than one application to the move.

so if you learned one, and saw someone else doing another, you may have an inclination to perceive what they do as wrong.

however, the proof can only be rendered out by actual use of both in a realistic setting.

Not to mention, if you're in a school, club etc, does everyone in your club do the forms the same?

in my experience, everyone has a different flavour with different emphasis on different things inside the same form. especially in the learning and early stage of practice. After a few years of refinement of a given form, the shape and sequence will be more similar, but there will still be differences in forces used. It's the thing about being stylistic in the first place.

[Yao Sing]

Any links to those articles?

Why do peeps always want things handed to them on a silver platter? Just click on "Search" and type in Feemon Ong.

I think the vid links are in the "Who is Femon Ong?" (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2195&highlight=feemon+ong) thread or they might be in the "Green Dragon Studios" (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42096&highlight=feemon+ong) one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do peeps always want things handed to them on a silver platter? Just click on "Search" and type in Feemon Ong.

I think the vid links are in the "Who is Femon Ong?" (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2195&highlight=feemon+ong) thread or they might be in the "Green Dragon Studios" (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42096&highlight=feemon+ong) one.

I though you had stuff beyond what was here.
And don't get snippy with me young man !
:D

[Yao Sing]

Sorry, I was groucho that day (today I'm chico). I get the same thing from my wife's work. Because I'm in computers they ask me all kinds of questions that I just look up on the Internet then holler at them for asking me instead of looking it up themselves.

So who's going to post the video links when they find them? I'm waiting. :p

[IronFist]

So who's going to post the video links when they find them? I'm waiting. :p

Me too. Green Dragon Studios threads are my favorite.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

all forms, regardless of the system are "made up".

Being "made up" doesn't diminish anything. Our entire world that we create and live in is "made up".

Ineffective is the term that should be used and if that is the case, then case in point examples are helpful.


forms nagging is silly. I mean, yeesh, It's a "form" an empty shape that you fill with intention and use as a vehicle to ingrain skills. If it's ineffective in what it produces in you, then you'll be the only one who knows that. :)




David J.,

I am hot and cold on your posts usually. Most times I agree with you, but some days I think you are a tool. (I'm sure your feelings toward me are quite recipricol) Today is NOT one of those days. I really dug how you phrased the above bold text. You can be a prophetic and insightful Muther ****er from time to time. Kudos to you.

No intent to offend, if you know me even a little from my posts, I call 'em like I see 'em.

[Joecjr409]

I have a copy of one of Richard Pitts books if anyone is interested in copying it or taking a look at it .You can contact me here with your email

[pateticorecords]

International Federation of Chinese Martial Arts presents:
39th Annual Green Dragon Martial Arts Tournament
Celebrating 39 Years of Tournament Excellence
Bordentown Middle School (Formerly High School),
Dunns Mill Road Bordentown NJ
(Just minutes from Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike)
GPS 40.1301231384277 -74.712043762207

Saturday April 21, 2012


OPEN TO STUDENTS OF ALL STYLES!!!!
Come see and compete against the area's best martial artists of all ages in weapons, empty hand & point sparring events!
For More Information Contact:
Grandmaster SL Martin @ 609-367-5262 or 609-324-03

One or All Events $45.00
Registration Open at 9:30 am
Weapons Divisions start at 11:00 am
Spectator Fee $5.00


Dear Instructors, Teachers and Martial Arts
Students,
I would like to extend this personal invitation
for your attendance at the Annual Green
Dragon Martial Arts Tournament. This year's
event will be held on Saturday, April 21st at the
Bordentown Middle School in Bordentown, NJ,
just minutes from the NJ Turnpike. This event
will be highlighted by first rate Olympic Style
Medals and outstanding local and regional
competitors. There will be a Grand-
Championship Trophy awarded for Adult Black
Belt Forms, Weapons and Black Belt Fighting
Competitions. This year’s awards will be first
rate in keeping with the reputation of this
event. This will be a U.M.A.R.A. sanctioned
League Tournament. Additionally, points will
be awarded for tally in the overall U.M.A.R.A.
2012 League Standings.
http://www.umara2000.com/tournaments/tournamentlist.html

[pateticorecords]

Anyone planning on going to this tournament?
Has anyone attended in the past?

[pateticorecords]

Some videos I found of previous years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeZIjwic83M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRBuwnaf8hs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjRgdT0G5vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rdn1ktEj5w

[IronFist]

This isn't Green Dragon Studios under Sifu John R Allen, is it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This isn't Green Dragon Studios under Sifu John R Allen, is it?

Allen's Green Dragon is in Ohio if I recall correctly.

[pateticorecords]

Here is the info I found...

The Green Dragon School is the official headquarters for the United States Chung Kuo Chung KUOSHU Federation, which was chartered by Grandmaster W. F. Hung of Taichung, Taiwan, R.O.C. in 1970. The Director and Chief Instructor is Grandmaster S.L. Martin, Jun Hu, Lao Tzu. Grand Master S.L. Martin began his Martial Arts training in 1955 and has studied exclusively in the far east under noted Asian Grandmaster. In addition to his extensive travels and studies, Master Martin was officially adopted into the “hung” family in 1995 and given the name of “Hung, Jun-Hu”. He was also officially awarded the banner of the “Taichung Hsueh Dau Kwang” organization and authorized as the U.S. Grandmaster of the Taichung Fukien White Crane System. Master Martin holds a New Jersey State Teaching Certificate and is a graduate of instructional programs for the F.B.I, Military Police, Special Forces, medical institutions, academic institutions, and countless military and civilian students. He is the recipient of more than thirty military awards and decorations, a Vietnam Veteran, and a retired serviceman who served more than 23 years of active service, two of which were served in a combat zone. He is the United Martial Arts Referees Association (a multi-style Referees Organization). He was inducted into the “Inside Kung Fu” magazine’s “hall of fame” as the “Instructor of the Year-2000”. Additionally, he was honored by the New Jersey State Assembly with an official proclamation recognizing his contributions to the citizens of the state of New Jersey for 30 consecutive years. He was also recently honored with an induction into the “Kuoshu Hall of Fame” for the year 2002 by the United States Chinese Kuoshu Federation.

http://flyingdragonschool.com/AboutGrandmaster.aspx

http://chinglungifcma.com/ifcma_instructors.htm

[mooyingmantis]

Allen's Green Dragon is in Ohio if I recall correctly.

That is correct. The last that I heard he was located in Stow, Ohio. It is about a half an hour from where I am located.

[pateticorecords]

Some videos of this year's tournament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zu3HjpNXU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjnDFEpFPvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcpvKze6XUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzY0TdUBB2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJAE2dqIWA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE8IU7y1BU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh60eSPW9NE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca4AFXPzH4E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO722DmTZ1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbqdGo8xxA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUlLYVWzjOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxwWPx7zzw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiZ75KbUqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWikgxC5lwc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4gw1QBuzXE

[IronWeasel]

Rheo Blair has a www site devoted to him. As with Allen, he says he got nowhere until
the right food supplements were provided. There is also Alan Calvert's final book
to be considered on this subject


Awesome!

I'll purchase all of your items....

[Lucas]

Not if I do first! Race ya!

[kfman5F]

What forms were you reviewing? As far as I know, most of their material was taught by Feeman Ong, Ark Wong and Kao Tao-sheng...all respectable teachers.
(not trying to start a lineage thread)...

Could you choose a form and direct me to a source of instruction (hopefully a vid tape) that I could use to compare the differences?

Look at Butterfly Hand from GD and Butterfly Palm from Wing Lam Enterprises.
Same form.

I'm not doubting your observations, but I'd like to see the form executed the proper way, which ever it may be.

Thanks,

Ironweasel


Anything I have seen of their kung fu has no resemblance to the Five Family Style taught by Ark Y Wong. To me it's a bunch of flash that looks good to beginners with no prior experience.

[IronWeasel]

Anything I have seen of their kung fu has no resemblance to the Five Family Style taught by Ark Y Wong. To me it's a bunch of flash that looks good to beginners with no prior experience.



The only one that pops into my head is the 5 Family Baton form. An out take from that form is on their 'Intro' video.

The majority of the instructional video material is from Femon Ong, though.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Not sure if it's been posted or not yet in this long thread but they have a website now:

http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

[Raipizo]

The only one that pops into my head is the 5 Family Baton form. An out take from that form is on their 'Intro' video.

The majority of the instructional video material is from Femon Ong, though.

You can go earn from them at akron university. I never noticed but you don't live that far from me weasel.

[YouKnowWho]

wow, funny how his nipple just hangs out there like a b-porn movie (no disrespect to the master)...:rolleyes:

goofs eveyware

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3803&d=1179075018

It's so funny for you to make this comment without any knowledge about how a Chines Shuai Chiao jacket suppose to look like. The old man supposed to expose both nipples and not just one. It's traditional Chinese custom.

Only girls are allowed to hide their nipples under a Shuai Chiao jacket.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2114/changpic01.jpg

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5773/scjacket.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2168/mscguy.jpg

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7289/sanpuyin1.jpg

[IronWeasel]

You can go earn from them at akron university. I never noticed but you don't live that far from me weasel.


I joined Green Dragon back in '89 when I was at Akron U.

I live just south of Akron now.

Where abouts are you?

[Raipizo]

A little past concord.

[Faruq]

Not sure if it's been posted or not yet in this long thread but they have a website now:

http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

So I guess the one in Chicago is the Green Dragon Society, while this one's Green Dragon Studios. I don't think the one in Chicago is still extant, so they definately wouldn't have a website.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

So I guess the one in Chicago is the Green Dragon Society, while this one's Green Dragon Studios. I don't think the one in Chicago is still extant, so they definately wouldn't have a website.

Yeah, Green Dragon Studios is the one in Ohio with Sifu Allen.

Black Dragon Society is the one that was in Chicago with Count Dante.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, Green Dragon Studios is the one in Ohio with Sifu Allen.

Green Dragon Society is the one that was in Chicago with Count Dante.

I thought that was the BLACK dragon society?

[IronWeasel]

A little past concord.


I used to play paintball near you, in Chardon.

Howdy, neighbor!

[Raipizo]

Nice to see some Ohioans on here lol.

[Raipizo]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3803&d=1179075018

It's so funny for you to make this comment without any knowledge about how a Chines Shuai Chiao jacket suppose to look like. The old man supposed to expose both nipples and not just one. It's traditional Chinese custom.

Only girls are allowed to hide their nipples under a Shuai Chiao jacket.



He's just a little shy, it's his first time. Anyway the bearded guy made me laugh

[Raipizo]

I used to play paintball near you, in Chardon.

Howdy, neighbor!

Just wondering, do you go to the Great lakes Kung fu tournament in April?

[IronWeasel]

Just wondering, do you go to the Great lakes Kung fu tournament in April?


Yep.

Most of the Shuai Chiao competitors went out to 'Gusto', for dinner afterwards. Make sure you join us next time.

:)

[mooyingmantis]

I have a copy of one of Richard Pitts books if anyone is interested in copying it or taking a look at it .You can contact me here with your email

Richard and I were friends in the middle 1980's and trained together a few times. I have all three of his books.

[Raipizo]

Yep.

Most of the Shuai Chiao competitors went out to 'Gusto', for dinner afterwards. Make sure you join us next time.

:)

I don't compete I'm just a spectator :( lol. Hoping to join a school soon though :D

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I thought that was the BLACK dragon society?

You are correct. I think it's Black Dragon Fighting Society.

They were rivals with the Green Dragon Society.

I had a Google suggestion of "Count Dante Green Dragon Society" so I assumed it was his. I should do more research before I post.

http://i.imgur.com/Pdg69.gif

I think BDFS sued Ashida Kim because he was using their logo or name or something on his website like 10 years ago.

Once again, for clarification:

Green Dragon Studios = Ohio, Sifu Allen http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Green Dragon Society = Chicago, rivals with Black Dragon Fighting Society http://www.greendragonsociety.com/

Black Dragon Fighting Society = Chicago, Counte Dante (John Keehan), rivals with Green Dragon Society http://www.theblackdragonfightingsociety.com/

[Kevin73]

What I want to know is, how did he get proper training in ALL these different forms from very divergent styles?

http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/formsindex.asp

[Dale Dugas]

Why don't you ask him?

Why are you asking questions on a forum when they should be directed to Shifu John Allen?

Their website is here: http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Contact them at: support@greendragonkungfu.com

[Faruq]

You are correct. I think it's Black Dragon Fighting Society.

They were rivals with the Green Dragon Society.

I had a Google suggestion of "Count Dante Green Dragon Society" so I assumed it was his. I should do more research before I post.

Once again, for clarification:

Green Dragon Studios = Ohio, Sifu Allen http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Green Dragon Society = Chicago, rivals with Black Dragon Fighting Society http://www.greendragonsociety.com/

Black Dragon Fighting Society = Chicago, Counte Dante (John Keehan), rivals with Green Dragon Society http://www.theblackdragonfightingsociety.com/

Quite intriguing:

Third in the series, this DVD is full of action sequences illustrating controlling power over a foe. This and each future instructional DVD in this series will concentrate upon an aspect of control previously touched upon or not yet even mentioned in earlier Controlling Moves DVDs.
This advanced training lesson includes the 'Distance Factor' in combat. A subject not previously discussed, although it has been repeatedly shown without comment.
Historically, what would become known as the Green Dragon Society or the Ch'ing Pang, was utilized by the Ming Dynasty as paid bodyguards to the royal family. They were the Secret Society of the Ming and constantly sent as spies, infiltrators, mercenaries, military commanders or advisors and assassins. The Mantis and Snake Styles were especially skilled as assassins. All members of the Society held rank in both the Ch'ing Pang and the military as officers.
After the Manchu takeover in the Tsing Dynasty the Greens were out of work and persecuted. From then on the organization worked against the hated Manchu foreigners. The Green Dragon went deep underground and became more even than a Secret Society, they became an invisible power that was feared far and wide even to the very throne. Something that had no substance, yet was everywhere!
Some Green Dragon Society members worked in those hard times as mercenaries or caravan guards traveling along the ancient Silk Road. Over vast distances, in strange lands, they often learned other martial arts, languages and culture. After years, or even decades of arduous travel, filled with hardship, danger, and adventure, these wandering monks eventually returned to the secret meeting places of the Society with the knowledge they had learned.

The Black Cobra is the "King" of the Snakes. Yet the Python is the "Tiger" of the Snakes. The Python has a lithe strength used in a fluid, dynamic, powerfully swift manner. The Python is a body contact close fighter and wraps his attacks around his foe. This is an internal/external level of fighting Art. T'iao Ho Ch'uan Tao, Animal Systems of Chi Tao Gung-Fu. There are 8 Major Animal Systems in Chi Tao. There are 8 Sub-Styles for each Animal Style.
The coiling Python is the Master of take downs, locks and holds, specializing in arm break controls of intense agony. The Python uses paralyzing and incapacitating strikes to vital points. The Master of strangulation, suffocation and brain oxygen deprivation, the Python creates "shock" in his adversary, followed by circulatory collapse and heart failure. The Python attacks vital points diaphragmatic and solar plexus for respiratory paralysis. The Style uses the most sophisticated, highly advanced neck break moves in the Art of Chi Tao.
DVD Includes: Extensive explanation of Python Style and movement. Full demonstration and application of Python Style fighting.
3 Python Forms.
Forms are complete and traditional Green Dragon mid-level fighting.
#1 'Crushing Tiger Bone' Deadly powerful form where the attacker drowns to death in his own blood.
#2 'Python in Mulberry Tree' Throat crushing, strangulation and suffocation Python Form.
#3 'Encircle Wild Boar' Take down neck snapping, throat crushing, finishing moves.

What should you expect when you study at the Green Dragon Society?
The Green Dragon Society offers many fields of study at multiple levels. This information is best reviewed on pages listing our Teachings.

We do not allow you to take a "free trial lesson" or view a class. We do not need to prove ourselves to you nor allow you to watch our students practice like "monkeys in a zoo". It is disrespectful to them. If you become a student you will be given the same respect. Students are not a form of advertisement, though they are a living example of our teachings. Within our organization respect and honor are important functions.

[Dale Dugas]

not so much.

[Faruq]

not so much.

Does that mean you won't be purchasing any of the instructional DVDs, Dale???!!! I'm pretty sure everyone else here will be, so you'd better get on board quickly, or get left out!

[Kevin73]

Why don't you ask him?

Why are you asking questions on a forum when they should be directed to Shifu John Allen?

Their website is here: http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Contact them at: support@greendragonkungfu.com

That was more a rhetorical question. I know his background and who he learned from and how they have gotten some of their material.

[Faruq]

Once again, for clarification:

Green Dragon Studios = Ohio, Sifu Allen http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/

Green Dragon Society = Chicago, rivals with Black Dragon Fighting Society http://www.greendragonsociety.com/

Black Dragon Fighting Society = Chicago, Counte Dante (John Keehan), rivals with Green Dragon Society http://www.theblackdragonfightingsociety.com/

What the Green Dragon Society's website seems to be describing is the use of spirit possession for their martial arts as Bawang said the Mongolians and Manchurians practiced, but mixed with some Cantonese terms as well.

[boxerbilly]

Hi, second post here.

I've read around here and elsewhere on Mr. Allen and Chicoine and the Studio.

I have purchased some of the videos Mr. Allen sells. Stone Warrior. 5 Animals. 9 Powers. Teet Sao. Fighting Fundamentals. And 2 other form videos whose name escapes me at present. I have never studied kung fu. I did train in Shaolin Kempo and there is some kung fu like movements in some of it. My primary method and the longest I did continues was boxing. A bit under 5 years amateur. Im in my mid 40's now. And that was long ago.

Anyway, to my eyes I like what I see. They are fit. The people doing the forms look great. The forms look very difficult and appears one would need to be in very good shape to do them. He showcases woman often and they are impressive in forms and Iron Palm breaks as was Mr. Allen.

I currently am doing 9 Powers and certain movements out of 5 Animals. A back and neck injury prevents me from doing certain movements at this time.

Others thoughts on them? Have they changed from the previous post I have read here and elsewhere?

Also, has anyone seen or own the Iron Palm video Mr. Allen and Mr. Chicoine used to sell? I can't find it for sale any place. Can anyone tell me what is on it. Your thought on the methodology used,etc.

Thanks.
Bill

[GeneChing]

It's always best to search (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/search.php) first, before posting. We have many topics here that have been discussed for over a decade. Our best resource is our archive. I took the liberty of merging your query with one of our longstanding threads on the topic.

[IronWeasel]

Hi, second post here.

I've read around here and elsewhere on Mr. Allen and Chicoine and the Studio.

I have purchased some of the videos Mr. Allen sells. Stone Warrior. 5 Animals. 9 Powers. Teet Sao. Fighting Fundamentals. And 2 other form videos whose name escapes me at present. I have never studied kung fu. I did train in Shaolin Kempo and there is some kung fu like movements in some of it. My primary method and the longest I did continues was boxing. A bit under 5 years amateur. Im in my mid 40's now. And that was long ago.

Anyway, to my eyes I like what I see. They are fit. The people doing the forms look great. The forms look very difficult and appears one would need to be in very good shape to do them. He showcases woman often and they are impressive in forms and Iron Palm breaks as was Mr. Allen.

I currently am doing 9 Powers and certain movements out of 5 Animals. A back and neck injury prevents me from doing certain movements at this time.

Others thoughts on them? Have they changed from the previous post I have read here and elsewhere?

Also, has anyone seen or own the Iron Palm video Mr. Allen and Mr. Chicoine used to sell? I can't find it for sale any place. Can anyone tell me what is on it. Your thought on the methodology used,etc.

Thanks.
Bill




Go here:

http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/


Send an email. They sell a few things that aren't listed on the website.

[boxerbilly]

Thank you Iron Weasel.

Are you Steve Hamp?

[IronWeasel]

Thank you Iron Weasel.

Are you Steve Hamp?



No, My name's Mike.

I have never met Steve, although we have corresponded via e-mail, and trained with some of the same people.

[boxerbilly]

No, My name's Mike.

I have never met Steve, although we have corresponded via e-mail, and trained with some of the same people.

Mike, I was reading through the archives a couple of days ago and I believe it was you that stated you learned 3 different snake turns over exercises.
I know the one Allen shows on his video. And the one Hamp calls arm grabs. Its slightly different.

If I have the poster correct, could you tell/ describe the versions you learned please.

[CatBrother]

I started reading this thread a few years back, saw that it died off, glad it's been kinda/sorta revived.
My own experience with Green Dragon Studios – I had a subscription to IKF back in the 80's, saw the first GD ads, saw them get high ratings for their vids, even asked a couple people if they'd go in on the Stone Warrior program with me ($100, in mid-80's dollars, which was no joke), then later ordered from them in the 90's. GD appealed to that side of me that many of us can identify with, what I think of as 'Saturday Shaolin Syndrome,' the belief that some wacky exercise that you saw in a weekend kungfu movie, usually involving sand, water, or candles, will make you an invincible buttkick machine, much faster than a weight set and power rack.
Re my order – It was literally a year and a half late (they said their tech had been damaged by lightning), and when it arrived wasn't what I'd asked for, and there was nothing extra added in for the inconvenience. That sucked, but as a poster here noted, you were literally nothing to them until you'd 'proved yourself,' not a real great business model for a retail operation.
Coming from a Wing Chun background, I'd wanted to see their complete butterfly swords video. What arrived was some basic form that could be done with the swords or with sai, I found it lacking in a lot of basic details, such as the technique for reversing the weapon, and John Allen's sonorous voice-over annoying. Really, I learned more that could be applied with those two weapons in my first arnis lesson.
A few observations on GD, from the persective of 30+ years. I've been a professional fitness trainer for going on 25 years, and started Wing Chun at age 16, and received my Master's in Traditional Chinese Medicine in '01 and have practiced that professionally since as well.
GD is all about forms. In the 'intro tape,' Allen says, and barks and bellows into the camera, that forms will imprint reflexes into the body. “If there had been a better way to train, they would have come up with it. YOU – do not have to make the mistake of not doing forms!” Show of hands, who remembers this? One poster on this thread, page 12 I think, upbraided a commenter for not having done long hard work on forms, and so, how could he say that they're no good? And Iron Tiger renewed the claim that forms 'put reflexes into the body.'

It's an old, tired argument, but here's my take – We can say it's no good, because this principle is not used for any other sport, especially a combative one.
Man, when I first heard about forms giving you reflexes, I was a skinny geeky weak teen, extremely uncomfortable in regular jock culture. I would have looooved it if I could go down in my basement, practiced alone, and come out with 'reflexes' to defeat attacks. Of course, by that logic, if tennis was my game I could also go down in my basement, swing a raquet (no ball needed!) in a highly stylized manner, over and over, and come out and deal with balls hit at all speeds and from all directions. Nobody even tries to punch your face in tennis! Of course, if you said that you were going to devote a significant portion of training time to doing stylized moves with no ball, you'd be roundly seen as crazy.
If 'forms' put reflexes into the body, it should work with any reactive sportl. It doesn't, and I don't have to spend 5 years with a baseball glove on my hand, scooping up imaginary grounders, to prove it.
Does anybody go for this, anymore?
You can sell forms, especially if you claim that you're the only one that has the good ones.
We now live in the world that GD claimed to want.
If you remember the old GD ads and articles and whatnot, they rode the 'Chinese MMA' exploits of Chang Dong-Shen like a rented mule. 'Yeah, you modern-day sissies, with your jiveass tournaments, Chang went down to Nanking and took on all comers. We would be doing the same, but now it's all touch fighting..' It's fine to sneer at 'tournament fighters,' but they based their own street cred on Chang's tournament(s).
Of course, now with MMA, you have the perfect vehicle to test-drive your Suai Chiao + traditional kung fu. One poster here has posited that if he were alive, Chang would enter and easily win. Well...
It's important to remember, that GD showed by their actions that they wanted two things very badly – recognition, and money. They got magazine columns, loudly complained about getting jobbed at tournaments, loudly complained when they lost the columns, and took out very large ads. For the time, their vids were hella expensive, and you were told that you needed a bunch of them. These guys were not hermetic recluses, or Ark Wong still charging what he charged 50 years ago. Neither of these is a bad thing, imo. But -
You know what would really get the respect and $ rolling in, what worked for this little-known group called the Gracie Family? Public competition against different styles. Chang's dead though, ...man, if only he had some really close students, adopted sons, even, who'd faithfully trained in his way and could show it to the world. They'd done the dynamic tension work, and forms thousands of times, and they'll show these modern-day clowns with their free weights and Thai pads what's what! (crickets.) For guys 'not interested in sports trophies,' GD was plenty glad to glom on to Chang's MMA experience, and use that as a badge of authenticity. Since that competition wasn't for revenge or war, what was that Nanking tournament if not a sports competition?
Let's get real here. If GD entered a fighter who'd trained in say, White Crane, and strengthened with Stone Warrior, and he cleaned house in the Octagon, everybody would be training White Crane later that week. This fine ancient tradition would be saved! Gene Chicoine goes in, absorbs multiple strikes without blinking thanks to Iron Vest, who wouldn't start Iron Vest, even though it takes years?
Taking out a full-page ad in IKF and other publications, “The Real Old School Challenges the New Pretenders,” with a pic of Allen wearing one of his little brother's t-shirts and scowling..Hell yes, I'd watch that. Everyone would.
If Chang's methods worked then, they should work now, and there are people who've pretty much dedicated their lives to training His Way. If they started winning fights, either with MMA or having, say a boxer using circular techniques, 'much more effective than straight-line techniques' beating the crap out of Andre Ward, well, Traditional CMA would blow up like the Hindenberg. They'd show that their work was worth all the time put in on forms and stances, and have a whole new generation keeping their ideas alive.

Yes, yes, we know that GD 'only keeps 1 out of 100 students.' Well, they got a few students now, who are presumably down with the GD way. Let them run free! If they 'don't fight like tournament fighters,' but presumably can still fight, wouldn't this be a huge advantage? If they can't fight in tournaments, and Chicoine swore he'd never teach Suia Chiao for 'sporting purposes,' for what are they training to fight? The bugs from 'Starship Troopers?' It's not like all Chang's matches were to the death.
“In 1933, at the age of 25, Grandmaster Ch'ang entered the fifth national Kua Shu Elimination Tournament in Nanking. This no holds barred competition involved over 1,000 participants and included masters in all major styles from all over China battling each other of supremacy in all-out combat.” Well, 'all-out” is kind of vague, but what's the diff between this and MMA, a.k.a. A sporting event?
Judo is a throwing and grappling style that started as jacketed wrestling, and it a (somewhat surprisingly) big part of MMA now. Rhonda Rousey's certainly on a tear with it, why not Chicoine's SC? There's a big difference between the point fighting common in the 80's, and the MMA rules of no groin shots/fishhooking/eye gouges/(and now) headbutts.
Incidentally, the whole '1 out of 100' thing is a little tired, given that that's the retention rate for most boxing gyms, or martial arts schools that require contact competition like kyokushinkai or BJJ. You know how long it takes, in a serious school, to just get a BJJ blue belt? When you stop comparing yourself to strip mall McDojos, so 1980's, this particular brag goes way down.

[CatBrother]

Strength training - I learned what GD sells as Stone Warrior from Sifu Charles Chi in Long Island. He called them Iron Buddha exercises, said he learned them from Kam Yuen. When I finally got my hands on the GD SW tape, it was the same stuff. I've always thought it was pretty bogus that GD said, regarding breathing, 'well, there are lots of opinions on how to breathe, so we won't address it at all.'
I worked up to 12 reps of everything, which took about 45 minutes. According to some posters here, this makes me incapable of commenting on SW. And yet I can start with lighter weights in kettlebell, free weights, sandbags, whatever, and realize gains right off the bat.
You can take this how you want it, but since then I've become intimately familiar with weights, with kettlebells, weighted clubs, sandbags, throwing dummies, the whole deal. My conclusion – you have to actually move force in a certain direction to get that particular strength, like for lateral strength doing a cable 'wood chop,' versus just tightening your muscles and twisting side to side as in one of the Basic Strength Exercises from GD. There is some unusual stuff out there for strength, like the items mentioned above, and I still think that the internal sets that involve specific breathing may well have a lot of value, but I have to strongly question spending the amount of time SW calls for (and some here have commented that 90 minutes may well not be enough!) when fight gyms around the country are cutting down on the more exotic, Crossfit-style conditioning in favor of just doing the **** art, bag work, pad work, partner work, all that.
I recommend Dan John's 'Easy Strength' for an in-depth but accessible exploration of this subject.

Having re-read the entirety of this thread, it seems obvious that the reply to hat will continue to be, well, you weren't doing it hard enough, long enough, and if you do, you'll achieve gains well beyond standard conditioning. I submit that it's incumbent on GD to produce fighters who toss their opponents around like dolls, a la Valery Federenko, before we're obliged to believe that. And vids of Federenko's lo-tech training are there for all to see on Youtube.

Don't have a big dismount, except I'd like to hear what the GD seniors say when they're asked, in all seriousness, why they're not tearing up the UFC.
Oh yeah, authenticity...can't comment on a lot of the styles mentioned in this thread, but I got the GD mailer for awhile, after ordering that one tape, and Allen, on the subject of Wing Chun, said, “No matter how you slice it, Wing Chun is a hard, power-on-power style.” This is so ridiculous, I can't believe it. Anyone who's taken a single WC class would know better, it's all about re-directing energy, and if you try to do it like Shotokan or something, of course you'll look like you're doing the Robot, and your stuff won't work. Hearing this bosh, from a guy who frequently spoke, and yelled and hollered, that he knew more about CMA than you or anyone else, was a major red flag.

[boxerbilly]

Hi CatBrother. Please add more. I do have one comment regarding Wing Chun. I don't have any tape Allen states WC is power on power. So I will take your word for it. But, based on some recent WC videos I posted in the WC sub forum. Those guys were pretty much power on power. Did not see a lot of that so called redirecting, tans and paks. I guess they did not do their chi sao practice? Nope, what I saw was guys using their guard to control the center line. The better ones pivoted to face. Some got ran backwards. I was thinking, sidestep.

All in all what I did see was in my opinion guys using their art against karate and doing rather well. I was impressed. Who ever taught them understood how to fight and did not waste time with things that may not work as directed in WC. But, Ive never taken a WC lesson so, take that with a grain of salt. I have done my best to take guys heads off and same to me. Again, I was impressed. But, it look mainly power on power. Beating the other guy to the punch. That guard slows the action down much of the time. Hitting more. Forward advance whenever possible. WC running backward loos to be not a good idea. So either Allen is correct regarding his observations of WC or these players were bad WC guys because they kept it basic, brutal and in your face. It looked a power art to me. Maybe that's how it should be done?

If so, then what is the other stuff for? Pre fight set ups? Over aggressive handshakes? Why did they not use the other stuff? Or did I just not understand what I saw because I never actually learn it?

Also, do you recall the video Allen stated WC is a power art?

I am actually enjoying Allens DT sets. Im no forms man. Never was. You can check my best weight lifts in Bawangs thread. Nothing great.

Just a thought, I wonder if Dale does STO and such still. Im sure he learned it. And his thoughts on the benefits of that or other exercises.

Also, can you tell me more about Iron Buddha exercises, from Kam Yuen. It looks like Allen may have combined individual exercise sequences ( like STO ) into one long set. Which is fine. I don't see why he could not do so? He would not be the first to create a set. And it is not a fighting form per say.

Thanks.
Billy

[mickey]

Greetings and Welcome to the forum CatBrother,

What you write about Green Dragon is a challenge facing A LOT of kung fu schools and it has been facing them for decades in this country and much longer, going all the way back to China.

One Green Dragon article you may have missed wrote about how they trained powerlifting. They were and probably still are about strength training.

The connection between Kam Yuen and Stone Warrior is an interesting one. I would like to hear more about this as well.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

My understanding is Allens school did have a weight room. Probably a nice one. Allen himself was a Olympic style weightlifter in his youth. He stated on one of the Q&A's I believe that if a student was real weak, woman especially he might have them do a few months of weights and then to focus more on the DT/breathing sets. Of course he said anyone can use the weights but he felt the time would be better spent on the dt sets, if I recall correctly.

[boxerbilly]

Now, the better illustrate my question id Allen was so wrong.

Where was this stuff in those fights? Or is that stuff you can only do if you preempt? Other guy is not ready at all? That's what I think! Its like Kenpo. For fighting a match, good luck with this stuff below. You can try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSqNRagw0NE

So why does he do none of this? Why is he POWER fighting? Is his wing chun bad or is Allen correct and fighting wing chun is a power art?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every MA is a power art, to think otherwise is just silly.
HOW you apply that power is what makes a MA distinct from another.

[Mor Sao]

I learned from Shifu Gene Chicoine not Shifu John Allen.

Shifu Chicoine and Allen had a serious falling out, hence you do not see Allen associated with the ISCA any longer.

No idea what Allen teaches, but for the record I never trained with him or his material other than purchasing some tapes that were labelled as South Mantis and it was most definitely not South Mantis.

[boxerbilly]

Well I hope CatBrother sticks around. He makes good arguments. I asked a friend who also has Allens Q&A if he recalled Allen stating WC was a power art. He did not so probably not on any of the tapes we have of him. He said Allen mentioned he believed WC was not fully taught to Yimm Wing Chun. The lady who taught here did not complete the training for whatever reason? Maybe one had to leave the area? He Allen thought it was a basic art . Only 3 sets. I think that actually varies depending on the linage. He may be referencing Yip Man linage? I think that WC may come from White Crane so perhaps Yimm was learning white crane and it got cut short? I really do not know. Does anyone? He also said Isshin Ryu was a system with only 8 forms. Not including the weapons forms. A system I did study.

Anyway, CatBrother. Nice posts. I liked them. Makes people think and question.

Sanjuro_Ronin, I tend to agree with you. I've seen vids of Tai Chi guys that get real hard. It hard for someone from my back ground to see the softness that may still be there.

Dale, thanks. Do you still include those tension sets and exercises in your training? If so, what benefits do you believe you receive? Allan states in 9 Powers after a month of STO a person should be able to break a single block. At 2 months, 2 blocks. At 3 , 3 blocks. I'm sure there comes at time that no longer grows equally.
Personally, aside from maybe a straight down shot with the palm heel, I'd skip trying any other kind of hand formations. No way Im slapping. Not with out training the hand.

[CatBrother]

Hello, all, thanks for the very friendly welcome.*
re Kam Yuen - All I can say is that Sifu Chi said that that's who taught him "Iron Buddha exercises,' which are identical to GD's SW, same order and everything, and Chi expressed some disbelief that anyone could get those exercises from anyone but Kam Yuen. Kam also taught him the White Lotus Palms, which I thought was interesting.*
Regarding GD and weight training -
Weights were mentioned in one of the mailers I got; free weights were a preference, as were lower body work (SQUATS was written like that, all caps). Master Ong was described as having strength 'like a competitive powerlifter.' OK, full marks for that.
*But*it points out one of the problems I have with GD - layering training modality upon modality like a Dagwood Bumstead sandwich (ask your parents, kids). There're only so many hours in the day, and we've all only got so much recovery ability. Someone needs to make like that Anglican bishop who calculated how old the world was according to the Bible, and figure out how many hours a day GD students are doing forms and dynamic tension and weapons, all the stuff (presumably) on top of bag and pad work, and partner work/sparring, Snake Turns Over, AND the Iron Buddha strength set, AND the Hung Gar strength set, maybe the Snake health set...and weight training goes where?*
* * *You can't really say "Oh yeah, we have that too," if there's no time, and no energy for anything else, and as Iron Tiger has mentioned repeatedly, they expect full, 100% tension, the whole set, and for you to come back next day and do it no matter how to' up you are from the previous day.
* * The Crossfit-ization of sports training has led many, and at one time I was among them, to something different yet parallel to GD's training style - more and more neato-torpedo exercises, taking up more and more of your training time and energy. I've been as guilty of this as anyone, and I own my own gym crammed with both traditional free weight stuff and with exotica like clubs, bags, bands, log bars, rings, Battling Ropes, a beer keg with 100lb of water in it, yeah, I've got it all.*
* * *I currently compete in dragon boating, have for about 8 years, and in the last couple years have been dragged (kicking and screaming) to the realization that I can deadlift 2.5 times my bodyweight and can pump myself up like an air hose, I was getting skunked in time trials, repeatedly, by guys who simply paddled more than me, were often 10+ years older (I'm 49), and weren't about to start deadlifting anytime soon.My experience has been echoed by athletes who've pursued ball-breaking 'metcon' workouts instead of just getting better at their sport, which is why it's been a truism that there are no high-level athletes doing Crossfit (as written on their main site) as their conditioning.
Again, full marks to GD for saying 'strength is important!'; one of the many grudges I hold against my first school is sneering at weight training and telling us it would slow us down, back when I had the equivalent of a steroid cycle pumping through my veins. In the late 80's/early 90's, for those not in the sporting world at the time, it was a fairly radical thing to say that strength training would improve your sport, most sports-science 'authorities,' at least in this country, were saying just the opposite.
In pretty much any sporting activity, strength training is essential, unless you're a physical outlier or an utter natural at the game. I'm neither, and strength training has allowed me to stay in the upper third of our little paddling group.
The question is, how best to gain that strength, and how much time to devote doing so. Pro fighters aren't exactly twiddling their thumbs, wondering how to kill some of the vast amounts of idle time they have. The rest of us have jobs and lawns and relationships to deal with.
A few years ago, one of the regular writers on the fitness/bodybuilding site Tnation (Chad Waterbury), who was looking to increase his visibility as a trainer of fighters, gave a list of strength standards he felt an in-shape fighter should be expected to meet. He was immediately informed by readers of just how few the current crop of UFC superstars (guys who not only train a ton but are on what we in the training biz call 'Mexican vitamins,' a ha ha ha) would meet his standards, and how much of their time and energy they'd have to devote just to improving their powerlifting, to do so. Also, many accounts of both pros and skinny Mexican amateurs who didn't look like they could whip cream with an outboard motor, but could beat you like you stole something.
“Powerlifting is a sport, but athletes are not powerlifters” is a quote that resonated quite well with me. More strength is great, but you don't get to just add it like you're beefing up your Dungeons and Dragons character. At a certain point, the chase for strength, and there are many definitions of 'strength' indeed, takes away from pursuit of other qualities, one of those 'a tripod has three legs' things. A certain level of strength is necessary, unless your skills are out of this world, but every boxing and wrestling gym has had bodybuilders swagger in the door thinking they're gonna own the place, and slink out the same door with bruises and new humility.
The question of 'how much strength is enough,' for any particular activity, is an ongoing debate, but we're kind of past 'more is better.' I again recommend Dan John's “Easy Strength” to martial artists and athletes of any stripe.
So, if they GD guys had a gym, bully for them. If they put their people on a hybrid powerlifting/martial arts quality-improving program, full marks. But daily hours of dynamic tension + gym work, don't think so, you'd have to be skimping somewhere. If not, well, as the song says, we'd all love to see the plan.
I have to strongly question, as previously noted, the strength acquired by actually rooting and moving a cable, a kettlebell, or a club laterally or at an angle, and I've done a lot of it, and tensing and rooting, and just doing it in the air. It's much the same difference as doing a form and pretending to block and counter an attack, and having your buddy put on 16 oz gloves and shin pads, and trying to put one on your nose while you block and oblique kick him low. Done a lot of that, too.
More on the subject of 'hard wing chun' later.

[Mor Sao]

paragraphs are your friends.

What I meant to imply is that Shifu Chicoine does not teach Stone Warrior and other silliness. He said it was was bits and pieces of things from others. I tend to agree.

I have never trained in SW nor do I see any reason to.

tension sets are great but not the be all that many want them to be. You need to add to your resistance training and your body can only take you so far.

I train bodyweight, weights, rubber bands, KBs, Indian Clubs and other training tools. I also train my basics.

There are not secret sets. The secret is train and when you adapt to change it up and come at from other angles.

And I would always pick South Mantis over Wing Chun anyday.

[CatBrother]

Hey, I might like Southern Mantis best too, if I ever got to study it. All I know about it comes from an IKF article from the early 80's, where the teacher talked about how they had many more 'powers' than Wing Chun. Seemed like a nifty style... I know I took his 'you train for short power, you get short power' injuction to heart, hitting my earliest punching bag, which happened to be 3 layers of shag carpet hung vertically in front of a brick support pillar in the basement.

I remember on the 'compilation tape' you got with your first GD order, we saw Allen doing a 5-part sequence on the mook jong, declaring that 'this is far superior to the Wing Chun everyone is so fond of for so reason,” which was odd, because each of the five movements was (also) a Wing Chun move. He threw in some cranky 'and this is how I want it done!' bit as well, as though his students might spontaneously break into Jazz Hands for the fun of it, and I remember thinking, get invited to a lot of parties, Johnny?
Did GD ever put out a wooden dummy tape? Not in their current catalog, but I thought I remembered one.

As a professional practitioner of Chinese medicine, I often field critiques from people saying how they think TCM is a bunch of old-world hooey, to which I honestly reply, at least to myself, “If what I knew about TCM was what you 'know,' I'd think it was a sack of BS, too.” Wing Chun is much the same; if what you know about it is what you hear about online and Joe Rogan podcasts, I don't blame anyone for thinking there ain't much there there.

Re Allen's critique – It was written, have no idea of what he said on video, and yes, he said that the female progenitor of the system didn't finish her instruction under Ng Mui, and thus had an incomplete system. He didn't say, somebody, somewhere, is using this stuff as a hard, power-on-power system, I don't think anyone could argue with that. People are using Tai Chi like that, and someone is somewhere grinding thru the Soft-As-Clouds Fist as taught at the Fluffy Bunny Monastery in Honan.
Allen was claiming that's how the style was designed, which is rubbish. The blocks flat-out don't work ********-hard unless you're a good deal stronger than your opponent. The tan sao is enough to re-direct energy, it can't stop it. Ditto the lan sao (which I've seen written as larp sao, also). If you're not a gorilla, you can't grab an arm travelling the other way and pull it whilst punching, lop sao. Even at my first, sub-standard school, we had this beaten into our heads from day 1.
On the dummy, if you're doing WC, you're not supposed to be battering the arms, but sliding around them. I was told that they represented the arms of someone too big/strong to move, YOU had to do the moving.

It's like an epee – long, stiff, no edge, just a point, like a foil on steroids. Can be a dangerous weapon, if you hit someone in the eye or something, but you ain't gonna chop off an arm with it.
Allen's critique was like hearing a guy say – “I know all about fencing. My master was a great fencer, defeated people from all over, transmitted to me the TRUE secrets of fencing, which you poor saps are ignorant of, and no matter how you slice it, an epee is only good for cutting and chopping attacks.”

Some big strong guys might well be doing WC in a 'hard' way, but IMO the moves aren't well suited to that. The blocks only work as re-directions, vs a Kali-style destruction where you're trying to bang into the incoming limb, and the sticky hands, which I do find valuable in being able to 'listen' to someone's energy and send it off, don't work if you're tense.
For me, Wing Chun is not a complete art, and one of the reasons I took to Sifu Chi was his open-mindedness about this, he'd gotten there before me. He had trained WC under multiple teachers, had also been trained in boxing by Cus D'Amato (Floyd Patterson, Mike Tyson) in the military, been East Coast Military Boxing champ twice. He talked about being all 'WC beats everything!,' then taking class from Chai Sirisute, who told him to come at him like a boxer, and when he did kicked him in the leg so hard he thought he might pass out. “Muay Thai can contribute strength and power to our martial art, two areas where it was sorely lacking,” is what Chi said to me.
To his credit, though he's kicked much anus himself, Chi has never shied away from relating when someone else has knocked him on his ass, Chai and Randy White come to mind. And then he stayed and learned those arts.
Anyone who says that WC needs some additions, especially in these days where anyone might go for a takedown, based on what they've seen on the UFC, will get no argument from me.

[boxerbilly]

Dale thanks.

Cat thanks

I'm no big fan of Joe Rogan. I seldom watch him. He does make good points though.

I hope no one think's I am bashing Wing Chun. I am not. Do what you like. If you believe in it and enjoy it and it gives you what you currently want out of it. You made the right choice. Really it depends on what you are training for. In the fights I posted. Much is useless for those events. So, if a WC guy wants to try other styles with rules in place, those videos may be a good thing to model after. Tweek where you see room for improvement.

As a friend just wrote me today. "The ring is a proving ground for the FIGHTER and not the ART. Fighting is a war of attrition. You have to be able to absorb tremendous punishment and I think it's more God given ability then anything that can be trained into you.Some of the best skilled boxers still feel to pieces when they got tagged on the chin by less skilled fighters."

I think there is a lot of truth in his statement. I've bounced a lot off him over there years. I appreciate his input always.

I sent him a link to the last page because I was impressed by Cats, posts. He was as well by the way.

[-N-]

Fighting is a war of attrition.

Unless you have adopted maneuver warfare.

What's old is new again. Good enough for the US military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare

attrition warfare - size and strength
maneuver warfare - training and technical skills

[CatBrother]

Hi, Billy.
Yeah, don't think I'd go beach timeshares with Rogan, either. When talking about the applicability of arts, whether it's WC or something from GD, questions have to be asked.
No question, you have to know what you're training for, another gripe I have with my first school – Is it an art, a sport, exercise, self-defense, battlefield combat? We've all encountered schools that claim to be all of these. To my mind, a baseball bat is a great weapon for self-defense, simple, don't have to load it, multiple hitting surfaces. But you won't learn to fight with one in a streetfight, by playing baseball. A lot of traditional training seems to have you running the bases, rather than, say, hitting a heavy bag with the bat.
No question, the ring is good for showing a lot of stuff, but even the Octagon allows stuff that wouldn't fly in the real world, like chasing someone on your butt because you want to grapple, not stand up with them. Or planning to wear someone down over ten minutes. Or just punching them repeatedly in the head, with your fist.

I also don't think we can generalize, but so much, about WC, or really any art. How many WC federations are there, now? My first school was Yuen Kay San (sp?), and they told us that Yip Man was a conniving cheat who got thrown out of the system, and if we ever encountered Yip Man people we'd beat them so bad we'd change their past. Charles Chi had learned from from Yip Man people, and I'm fully confident that he'd beat my first teacher so bad his dog back home would drop a turd in the shape of a praying Jesus.
You can't talk about WC or whatever like you'd say '10cc of pennicillin,' it always comes back to the person doing it. See also, systems of strength training, of massage, of acupuncture, all of which I do professionally, all of which I've observed a myriad of permutations in students of the same teacher. There’s probably guys out there who do WC in a manner I’d think of overly stiff, but they succeed by running up on people with the chain punch and have learned or intuited how to deal with the defenses coming in.
Chi's observation that WC was lacking strength and power was not a little transgressive, itself. His WC 'was not of the mainstream,' as they say in the movies, but at the end of the day, I'm not the member of the WC Clan, or any clan, I'm a guy who's genetically better suited to be a poet than a hand-to-hand fighter, who doesn't want to just roll over in a physical confrontation.

[mickey]

Good Gosh!

What is with you mid lifers? Is Andro on pause? :D


mickey

[CatBrother]

Are you the Mickey on IGX?
Just asking.

[boxerbilly]

Unless you have adopted maneuver warfare.

What's old is new again. Good enough for the US military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare

attrition warfare - size and strength
maneuver warfare - training and technical skills

Nice catch. Knowing him for as long as I have, I understand what he means.

For most of us, both matter.

[boxerbilly]

Well I sure hope you stick around and add Cat.

Thanks.

[mickey]

Hi CatBrother,

No, I am not.

What in the world is IGX?

Nevermind, found it: IronGamex.

Not a member there.


mickey

[Kevin73]

Sorry for the thread necro.

came across it as an old thread I had posted on and was re-reading through it.

found out that Sifu Allen passed last year.

https://greendragonkungfu.com/blogs/from-the-sifu/celebrating-the-life-of-sifu-john-r-allen-5-21-39-2-11-20

[GeneChing]

Secondly, we did post a thread on Allen Sifu when we heard news: Sifu-John-Allen-(1939-2020)-Rest-In-Peace (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?72004-Sifu-John-Allen-(1939-2020)-Rest-In-Peace)

[YinOrYan]

Secondly, we did post a thread on Allen Sifu when we heard news: Sifu-John-Allen-(1939-2020)-Rest-In-Peace (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?72004-Sifu-John-Allen-(1939-2020)-Rest-In-Peace)

I remember the Intros to his video tapes were always entertaining. Before YouTube existed, his videos were the only way to easily see some forms. I always wondered about that White Lotus Kung Fu described as follows:

"White Lotus Combined System is a blend of N. & S. 5-Animal Shaolin family material representing 30+ different styles from every area of China - not to be confused with the single style of that name or individual schools or the society of that name."

Is this the same system created by Douglas Wong who also combined "styles from every area of China" that had passed though the Los Angeles area, and called it White Lotus?

...and please lets not rehash WHY anyone would choose the name White Lotus. There's are other threads full of that!