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Stranger
09-30-2001, 03:35 PM
Pretty much the same as the subject. Any additional info or personal experiences training with either party would be appreciated. Thank You.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

neptunesfall
09-30-2001, 04:43 PM
as far as i know, sifu gene chicoine studied under sifu john allen.

Stranger
09-30-2001, 05:30 PM
I thought Chicoine was the teacher in that duo. :confused:

Can you tell any more details? :)

Is Chicoine legit? Is Allen legit?

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

Dale Dugas
09-30-2001, 05:52 PM
Master Gene Chicoine is senior to Sifu John R. Allen. Neptunesfalls, you are incorrect stating that Master Chicoine studies under Sifu John R. Allen. Both of these men have studied under Fee Mon Ong who was legendary in Ohio.

Master Chicoine then met Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng who was the leader/family head of Baoting Shuai Chiao. Master Chicoine is the present day leader of the International Shuai Jiao Association. GM Chang gave him the keys the association. Not bad in my book.

I have the utmost respect for both men. But its a little rude to put Master Chicoine under Sifu Allen.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

Water Dragon
09-30-2001, 09:39 PM
LOL :D

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

IronFist
09-30-2001, 10:37 PM
on the Iron Vest tape by Green Dragon, I believe that it's Gene who demonstrates it (although I can't understand his name when he says it, but it sounded like Gene Chicoiwhoever)

Iron

Sihing73
10-31-2001, 09:59 PM
Hello,

I was curious if anyone had the address or a phone number to contact the Green Dragon Studios. I believe they are or were located in Ohio. This is Gene Chicone and John Allens group and produced a series of videos to include Stone Warrior. Anyhow, if anyone can provide a contact method I would appreciate it.


Peace,

Dave

kungfu cowboy
10-31-2001, 10:59 PM
Hi Dave,

I don't think they are currently in the same organization, although they may have been in the past. John Allen is supposedly based in Stow, but I have never found a school. I think he teaches at a kung fu club at Kent State. I always see flyers, but never checked it out. I do have this though:

Green Dragon Studios
c/o Sifu John R. Allen
PO Box 1601
Stow, OH 44224

And Chicone can be reached at:

World Headquarters:
Ho Chun
P.O. Box 9254
Akron, Ohio 44305
Email:info@shuaichiao.com

I know there is a phone number for Chicone's school, and a real address, but I can't find them. Will try later.

Sihing73
11-04-2001, 10:44 PM
Hi KungFu Cowboy,

Thanks for the info I really appreciate it.
If you do find a phone number I would appreciate that as well.

I have never had any dealings with Green Dragon but have heard some good things from others. I am interested in possibly checking out some of the videos they offer.


Thanks again.

Peace,

Dave

IronFist
11-04-2001, 10:53 PM
Sifu Allen's number is unlisted.

A few years ago I did the Stone Warrior program for a little over a year. I've written a lot about it on the training forum. Do a search for "Stone Warrior" by "IronFist"

Their school is pretty hardcore.

Iron

Sihing73
11-04-2001, 11:21 PM
Thanks Iron Fist,

I will take a look at what you wrote. I am interested in seeing what it is all about as some have said some very good things about it. Anyhow thanks and I will do the search.

Peace,

Dave

IronFist
11-05-2001, 12:31 AM
If you get anything from him, or do Stone Warrior, definately tell me what you think ok?

I want to compare experiences with someone who has done Stone Warrior, and here I only know one other person and he doesn't post very much o.O

Iron

yenhoi
11-05-2001, 01:14 AM
I bought the stone warrior tapes (multiple tapes?) I havent opened the box yet.

Im not sure If I am going to use them, my buddy might, by I am aware that the techniques might affect the sensativity in my forearms.

I am very interested in this type of (dynamic tension?) training.

strike!

kungfu cowboy
11-05-2001, 11:38 AM
This should be the number for the school.


330-253-4656
Fax: 330-633-2360

Sihing73
11-05-2001, 04:55 PM
Hi KFCB :D

Thanks for the information. I will be contacting them shortly.

Peace,

Dave

IronFist
11-06-2001, 01:13 AM
Stone Warrior was one tape when I did it.

Maybe you got something else?

Iron

yenhoi
11-06-2001, 04:43 AM
One tape, a t-shirt, a notepad, some other literature (flyers?), and two squeeze-ball things that say "Stone Warrior" on it.

:D

strike!

IronFist
11-06-2001, 08:15 AM
squeeze ball things? ****, I must have gotten ripped off when i ordered it a few years ago.

i want my squeeze balls!!!

Iron

kungfu cowboy
11-06-2001, 11:03 AM
You know that's illegal in most states!! :p

Kristoffer
11-06-2001, 02:05 PM
lol

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

Fu-Pow
11-06-2001, 09:49 PM
What is stone warrior?

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

IronFist
11-06-2001, 10:01 PM
Hang on I will cut part of my post about stone warrior.

I'd bump it, but it's in the wrong forum :P

brb

Nah, actually I'll make it its own topic.

Iron

Polaris
11-13-2001, 01:15 AM
Does anyone know if the school in Stow teaches Iron Palm/fist/body etc.? It seems like they offer a lot. Also, is there actually an organized process of Iron Fist like there is Iron Palm, or is there only the crude method that Pan uses? I would be interested in it, but I certainly don't want my hand looking like that.

KC Elbows
11-13-2001, 01:19 AM
I know there's other versions of iron palm then Pan Qing Fu's. Most versions I've seen try to avoid that kind of malformation, but I wouldn't want to get hit with those knuckles, either.

IronFist
01-27-2002, 11:56 PM
Dŕmn, I think they must spend too much time training and not enough time checking their mail. The first time I ordered a Green Dragon Studios catalog (in 1998) it came in like 3 weeks. I never got any more catalogs from them, and a few months ago I sent in one of their ads for another catalog and I haven't heard anything yet.

Maybe I píssed them off that one time when I wrote a letter to them years ago asking Sifu Allen a few questions about Stone Warrior. Someone once told me that he personally replies to letters, even if it takes a while. Uh, I guess he's like 3 years behind on answering his letters :)

Anyway, anyone hear anything from them recently?

Iron

WhtLotus
01-31-2002, 05:40 PM
All I know is that a few people are starting Iron Palm training soon in the Green Dragon program. I'm not sure if he teaches anything like Iron Fist, etc... I haven't been in the program that long.
:o

Royal Dragon
01-31-2002, 07:50 PM
Iron Fist is just Iron plam only hitting the mung bean bag (gravel or shot depending on what stage your in) with the fist instead of the open palm. Some schools hit the bag with the back of the hand and then the knuckels and fingers to harden the hitting surface used by a fist. It's nothing special or different. Any Iron Hand system contains it. Infact most of what people call Iron Palm is really the entire Iron Hand system and not just the Iron palm by it self.

RD

Joe Mantis
04-03-2002, 09:47 PM
How many of you are Green Dragon extension family members?

Has anyone obtained a copy of the training manual given to students? I'm not sure if it is only available to those students training in house.

How about the 1000 reps program? any info on that?

I think that Sifu Allen lays it on the line and that kung fu is hard work and if one wants good results one must work for it.

I'd be interested if anyone would post their experiences with Green Dragon.

thanks.

IronFist
04-03-2002, 10:11 PM
Green Dragon training manual? Can someone hook me up?

IronFist

David Jamieson
04-04-2002, 01:42 AM
Green Dragon eh?

There are few places that bear this name. Not all o them are related in any way.

Green Dragon is a fairly generic Kung Fu name when you think about it. i can think of three seperate "Green Dragon" schools.
Come to think of it, black dragon was popular once as well as red dragon, gold dragon and so on.

I myself have been taught "Green Dragon" stuff.

The "tapes" are not the be all and end all of that name, though they do have a fair reputation with the quality of instruction given on their tapes.

peace

WhtLotus
04-04-2002, 09:14 AM
I got a basic "training manual" when I started... it's just three pages of basic opening warm-up schtuff. We keep our own manuals/notebooks in the school... we're expected to bring a notebook, and since we learn forms step-by-step, we write them down in there, and it becomes our own personal manual. I think that's what you mean, right?

I have a handout that Sifu Allen typed up outlining the 1,000 reps program, if I could only find where I put it. :o

Hey, I'm going to the school tonight to get some information on this nutritional company that the Sifu likes, so I'll see what I can do, if y'all are interested.

Dark Knight
04-04-2002, 09:32 AM
I have many tapes from him. I like his approach.

He belives a good big man will beat a good small man. His strengthening tapes are good.

if you have been thinking of buying his tapes I reccomend them.

Sean the Black
04-04-2002, 02:22 PM
cool I was looking at getting some tapes from Green Dragon...was wondering how good they were...thanks guys

elua
04-04-2002, 03:25 PM
Which Green Dragon? The Chi Tao Chuan Green Dragon of the Count Dante days?

Sean the Black
04-04-2002, 03:41 PM
say what? :confused:

Dark Knight
04-04-2002, 03:43 PM
I dont own any of the beginner ones. but the advanced ones are very good. The forms are not show forms they are actual combat forms and the technique breakdown is excellent.

If you get them and show up at your school doing these techniques people will be impressed.

they are not the end all of information, but they are good.

elua
04-04-2002, 03:46 PM
Yes. The Green Dragon Society of Chicago that was involved in the Great Dojo wars with Count Dante (John Keehan).

Sean the Black
04-04-2002, 03:49 PM
well the one I'm thinking of is in Ohio I believe

Ao Qin
04-04-2002, 07:03 PM
Just wanted for clarify to anyone interested;

The "Green Dragon Kung Fu Group" in Canada was so named by Master Wong Cheun Yip of Toisan, China, and carried into Canada by Master (Mark) Chan Yin Wah of Edmonton, in the 1960's. The name has special connotations (cultural and martial) which reflect the flavour of the style. We have schools across Canada and the United States. The school's name is still used as such in China.

As Kung Lek pointed out, there are several schools which also use this name in the United States, but are entirely unrelated and unaffiliated.

Just a caution in terms of "extension" groups.

Thank you, Ao Qin

IronFist
04-04-2002, 07:14 PM
Hey guys, originally he meant Green Dragon STUDIO in Ohio. This was given away by the reference to Sifu Allen.

Seriously now, someone send me a copy of this manual.

IronFist

Joe Mantis
04-04-2002, 08:52 PM
Green Dragon Studios in Ohio....
that is the one.

Anyway, I bought the two tape lecture series with John Allen and in that he mentions a training manual. I'm seeking information about it. I'm not sure if it is okay to ask him directly. I'm not sure about what he expects in terms of protocol with extension family etc.

BSH
04-04-2002, 10:09 PM
We had a green dragon black belt join our school for a year. All she was interested in was forms and she was petrified of sparring with anyone even though everyone she sparred with had good control and would not hurt her.

From her I got the impression that Green Dragon was interested in taking anything they could from authentic Kung Fu schools and claiming it under Green Dragon. I hope this is the wrong impression, because I wasn't impressed. We had so much more to offer that she wasn't interested it. In the words of a great many great people, she limited herself with self-doubt and lack of faith.

Oh well, I still learned a lot from her as I hope I will learn from everyone who walks through the doors of my school.

IronFist
04-04-2002, 11:09 PM
Joe Mantis, check your PM's.

IronFist

neito
04-05-2002, 01:33 AM
AO QIN- i train at green dragon in edmonton. you train at thewinnipeg kwoon i assume?
- one of my instructors as got some nasty e-mails from people who thought he was involved with some other "green dragon"

IronFist
04-09-2002, 11:03 PM
Joe check your PM again...

IronFist

IronFist
04-09-2002, 11:04 PM
Joe check your PM...

IronFist

Joe Mantis
04-10-2002, 05:17 PM
Iron Fist,

Sorry, haven't been on in a while.
I'll check the pm now.
peace

David Jamieson
04-10-2002, 05:51 PM
Count Dante was the black dragon society comic book guy with the wolfman jack look. "The most dangerous man alive...ever" "Really!...just ask him!"

I've seen John Allen's ching lung pa kua tapes and they're pretty good tapes. The kuas are broken down and explained in a easy to understand way.

I haven't seen any of the north shaolin tapes they offer though and i am not certain of which north shaolin style it is. anybody know this?

peace

elua
04-10-2002, 07:47 PM
Correct give the man a prize! Actually pre-black dragon society days(Ashida Kim now heads the BDS lol) he was an instructor under Robert Trias and trained with James Lee. Black Dragons and the Green Dragons(Chi Tao Chuan) had the now infamous war in which one of the Green Dragons were killed with a katana. Count Dante was an international hair-dresser who died of a bleeding ulcer. Excellent example of fact being stranger than fiction.

Joe Mantis
04-10-2002, 08:03 PM
Hey Guys thanks for participating in this thread.

I still would like to know who else has a training manual from GD.

Also I would like to keep this thread focused on GD studios and their material. Sorry but unfortunately my time is very limited and I would appreciate if everyone would post only to what is pertinate to this thread.
Thanks again for your help.

Black Jack
04-10-2002, 08:05 PM
It was not a katana. It was a dagger.

Joe Mantis
04-10-2002, 08:32 PM
Did anyone get Tam Tui material besides the exercises?

How about White ape steals the peach?

If so what are your impression of the material?

Ao Qin
04-10-2002, 09:03 PM
Hi Neito,

Yes, I am from Winnipeg - hope to see you next month!

Please give my fondest regards to the boys and Sifu Chan - feel free to email me...

Cheers - kevin

KBarkman@gov.mb.ca

elua
04-11-2002, 06:54 AM
BlackJack - You could be correct as I wasn`t there. I did however get my info from someone who was. It was his good friend that was killed.

Also LOL@ The Thread Police

Black Jack
04-11-2002, 08:32 AM
My old GDS sifu was a member their right after the Count Dante attack, I know the story, its details, and a bunch more than that, to be honest the story has grown some wings and you see different verisons come up now and then, one of the first ones I heard was a spear, but on further research it was a dagger that he reaced up to get as he was getting beat down on the ground, reaching up, he grabbed the dagger and stabbed the attacker in the stomach who walked out of the temple, staggered down the sidewalk some, and collasped dead.

Think about it this way, why would a chinese fighting society have a japenese katana, more than not even if I am wrong, I would go with the spear weapon before the katana, in terms of what might be next.

Either way some guy got killed during that raid, not only that, but one of the GDS members was blinded when he answered the door to see what the fake cops wanted and the fake cop at the door brought down a baton which brook the chain on the door and raked across the mans eye on the way down.

It was a VERY interesting time in Chicago history.

Leimeng
04-11-2002, 11:37 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From her I got the impression that Green Dragon was interested in taking anything they could from authentic Kung Fu schools and claiming it under Green Dragon."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~Actually, we all do this to some extent or another. As individuals we practice a form that we learn over and over again until it becomes part of us and who we are. Because of our individual personality and body types the forms become expressions of who we are. No two people or groups of people perform a form in the same manner. (Unless you attend a rigid, anally retentive sport type of mcdojo.) I a very real sense the form is ours.
~I have heard GD on numerous occasions reference the masters that they learned their forms from.
~If you stay in the marital arts long enough and perhaps open your own school then you will be guilty of the same thing that you are accusing them of doing. Not a problem at all.
~Many individuals who study martial arts are adverse to sparring. There is a good argument that could be made about how sparring can be detrimental to development of technique. I will not say that I agree with that or disagree with that, but a lot of classical schools do not emphasize the sparring at all. Some offer it as option. Diligent practice of a form with a competent teacher and a good over all training program can make an individual reasonable good in some self defense situations. The major problem with this is that most people are too lazy to put in the requesit work.
~Personally, I have learned things and gotten some interesting insights to different aspects of martial arts from Green Dragon videos. Properly used they can make an excellent supplement to any traditional program one would be involved with.
~I would like to see more articles by them in the martial media. I think a book on martial arts related topics by Mr Allen would be interesting as well.

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

Joe Mantis
04-12-2002, 05:14 AM
Leimeng


thanks for you insights. I agree tha GD provides great supplementation to any program. John Allen seems knowledgeable in a variety of areas.
I agree that diligent practice in forms is what a person needs however I add that if by forms Allen means solo work only: I disagree. There needs to be two person work. One cannot gain martial expertise without a partner to work with.

I definatly would like to see more articles in the media as well.

WhtLotus
04-12-2002, 09:18 PM
Sifu Allen wrote some articles for the Inside Kung Fu Magazine awhile ago, but stopped because he didn't like writing them, and according to him some people who thought kung fu should just be kept among the Chinese complained to the editor of the magazine about it. Off topic, I think it was the June 1989 issue that Sifu Allen, Marge, Audrey, and Yvette were on the cover of.

We also learn two-man forms (like the white lotus knife set being taught now) but in the beginning levels it's primarily solo work, excepting any contact drills. Speaking for myself, I would be very uncomfortable sparring since I have just started in the school. However, my opinion is that it is good to learn forms and develop good technique before you begin sparring so that moves are more ingrained into your body and you do not have to think about it as much.

Again, I'm just telling you what I hear an interpret from my experiences in the school and the stories I've heard from Sifu Allen and his senior students.

Joe Mantis
04-15-2002, 07:26 PM
WhtLotus

Im curious on how Sifu Allen teaches applications from the forms?
Are there 2 person sets to every form? Does he teach 1 move and counter type apps?

They have some really neat stuff.
I've seen the articles as well. It would be great if Sifu Allen would write more.

Royal Dragon
07-25-2002, 03:10 PM
Has anyone ever bought video's from him?

He has an add in all the old inside Kung Fu magazines and claims to offer alot of rare Kung Fu videos.

The guys name is Sifu John R Allen.

The Add only has a mailing address, but no phone number. I though that really odd.

MonkeySlap Too
07-25-2002, 03:39 PM
RD - give me a call, and I'll give you da' scoop.

BSH
07-26-2002, 07:57 AM
I haven't purchased any videos, but someone in my area opened a school based on the videos. I am not very impressed. The black belt I saw was far from awe-inspiring.

But to give them the benefit of the doubt, I rarely see anything that impresses me these days.

Bolt
07-26-2002, 09:29 AM
Opened a school based on videos ???
Whoa ! Watch out Richards Simmonds - here I come !

IronFist
07-26-2002, 10:25 AM
From what I've heard, it seems that the purpose of Green Dragon Studios is to catalog the widest variety of forms available. They have many rare sets. However, I don't think this is how the school works. It's not like every student is made to learn every form or whatever. But, I think cataloging the forms on video is like a side project or something.

That being said, I've heard that the fighters that the school produces are very powerful. I've seen video of some female students breaking concrete blocks, and of Sifu Allen breaking some big ass concrete block(s?).

Their school seems to have become known for being controversial in the 80's or something. Sifu Allen apparently had a column in Inside Kung Fu (I've never read any articles of his tho, unfortunately) and I think his opinion was basically "regardless of what techniques you know, if you lack the physical strength to pull it off the technique is worthless." I've heard their school is very big on strength development, and they have many (or at least many more than most schools) forms and strength sets designed for just this purpose.

Sifu Allen embodies this principle. He is a pretty big guy, and when he's giving lectures (at least on my tapes) he's constantly flexing his muscles and stuff. Not to say that size=strength, but he is a pretty big guy. He's a very forceful speaker, too. Somehow, however, I doubt that he got as big as he is by doing Stone Warrior all day.

Anyway, the 3 tapes of his that I've seen have been very informative and I would recommend them to people who want to see another perspective on Kung Fu. I've seen Stone Warrior, Iron Vest, and Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting. I haven't seen any regular forms tapes, tho, so I don't know how they are.

I know some people here either train at his school or have trained at his school, so ask them.

IronFist

MonkeySlap Too
07-26-2002, 10:26 AM
Those guys have a considerable amount of material on tape - but with the exception of the Southern Shaolin which is thier base, most of the tapes I have viewed are devoid of those concepts and training methods that make them what they are. Their Bak Mei (White Eyebrow) tapes are a stunning example of this. It's just NOT Bak Mei, no matter how much they might tell you otherwise. It looks like someone watched film of a Bak Mei guys forms and tried to imitate it.

If they just consider it the 'Green Dragon' version of these sets, I don't really care what they do or say.

I also cannot say that everything they do is without merit - there is some okay material in there I'm sure, but buyer beware.

Royal Dragon
07-26-2002, 11:08 AM
Does anyone know how to contact them? Preferably by phone?

IronFist
07-31-2002, 11:30 PM
Nope his phone number is unlisted. I heard he used to call you to check up on your training but I guess they got too many extended students to do that. I also heard he replies to letters but I wrote him once and didn't get a reply.

IronFist

M.C. Busman
09-08-2002, 12:02 PM
Can anyone share some information about this teacher, Fe-mon Ong (alternately spelled Fee Mon Ong, Fe Mon Ong, Femon Ong, Frank Ong)? Taught in Ohio, among others, his students numbered John R. Allen of Green Dragon Studios, and Gene Chicoine who later studied under shuai chiao's Chang Tung-sheng (Chang Dung Sheng). Ong is deceased, according to what I have been told. I can find zippity-doo-dah, NOTHING on this man in my archives...one person said he was an immigrant from China, another that he was a student of another Ohio man of Chinese descent named Wu...

What did Ong teach (style), who was his teacher, who were his other students? In the various biographies of Chicoine I have read, he mentions commencing studies of Chinese martial arts in 1959--but never mentions Fe-mon Ong specifically. Why is this?

Any info appreciated, post or email.

Good Days Ahead to You,

M.C. Busman
mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

FIRE HAWK
09-09-2002, 06:12 AM
Here is a link about Dr. Fred Wu
http://www.clearsilat.com/silat/Biography/DrWu.htm

Daniel
09-09-2002, 01:32 PM
Check out Sifu Wayne Schulz Site at www.schulzkungfu.comwww.schultzkungfu.com

There is a picture of Master Ong on that page as well as some info.

Master Ong taught an art called Kwan Ying Dao I belive it is a blend of both northern and southern forms but is based on S. 5 Animal. ( I could be wrong).
Daniel

RAF
09-09-2002, 04:33 PM
1976 or 77, Akron Beacon Journal, Akron, Ohio.

Interview with Femon Ong (some say his name in Cantonese is Huang).

Details his history and teachers. Don't have it with me at this time. Forgot where I put it.

Heard a lot about him. His son is suppose to still be teaching in Barberton, Ohio.

There is a post somewhere in here that lays out his history.

IronFist
09-30-2002, 12:38 AM
Someone was going to loan them to me a few months back but I forgot who it was. Has anyone seen them? What kind of info is covered? What do they talk about? Are they cool? Are they worth the money? Etc., etc., tell me about them.

IronFist

IronFist
09-30-2002, 11:44 PM
Bump. Someone has to have seen them. I know there's lurkers here that have seen them. Someone register and reply.

IronFist

David Jamieson
10-01-2002, 01:04 AM
lecture tapes?

why not watch paint dry instead?

peace

IronFist
08-13-2003, 07:52 PM
Can I borrow them?

IronFist

Leimeng
08-13-2003, 10:30 PM
~ Do you have the first part of the lecture series? What is it like? I have always enjoyed Mr Allen's writting in IKF and the tapes of Green Dragons that I already got. Was going to get those lectures a while back but never got around to it. Pity, maybe I should... How would you rate them on a scale of 1-10?

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

IronFist
08-13-2003, 11:01 PM
I don't have any of them, that's why I want to see them. To my knowledge, there is only one lecture set, and it is 2 tapes long. I want to see them but I can't afford them.

The only other stuff of his I've seen is Stone Warrior, Iron Vest, and Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting.

What tapes have you seen?

IronFist

Leimeng
08-14-2003, 11:42 AM
~ I have Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting, Fundamentals of Knife Fighting, Fundamentals of the Stick, Iron Vest, and a couple of the forms. Good stuff for the most part.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

IronFist
08-29-2003, 12:48 AM
i'm bumping this thread.

Ben Gash
08-29-2003, 12:58 AM
I've seen a couple of the Green Dragon Studios tapes. I remember seeing a northern leopard set in particular. It was hideous. The flow was terrible, there was no power and it was really uncoordinated. To make things worse, Allen's narrative style is a perfect cure for insomnia!

Kymus
08-30-2003, 09:29 AM
I studdied Green Dragon Kuoshu from Grandmaster S.L. Martin. The system I study is based around tiger, crane, and dragon. I've seen some Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut in it, but how much is really in there, I do not know. Grandmaster Martin was taught by Grandmaster Hung, of Taichung, Taiwan. This system isn't too spread out. Right now it's only really found in NJ and Pa

IronFist
08-30-2003, 09:48 AM
Kymus, I think that's a different Green Dragon. It's kind of weird how different schools sometimes have the same name. That could be confusing and could potentially get someone in trouble maybe.

Lynux6gold
08-30-2003, 01:07 PM
I've been a part of Green Dragon for one year now, and I have not heard of such a manual. It might be something he does only for long-distance customers?

As far as I know, btw, Sifu Allen has discontinued the video business.

As for Joe Mantis's question regarding 2 man sets, there are just specific sets that include 2 people. Everyone learns both sides.

IronFist
08-30-2003, 01:47 PM
Welcome to KFO.

He discontinued the video business? Hmmm.

What is training like there? Do you guys do a lot of sparring?

IronFist

Lynux6gold
08-30-2003, 02:10 PM
No, we don't spar. But, even though form-work plays a major role in it, our training is by no means completely solo. We do plenty of contact/conditioning drills, 2-man sets, self defense techniques, etc.

The 2-man sets, done properly enough, are almost indistinguishable from a real fight or sparring.

IM or PM me if you have further questions about the school; I'm not a huge fan of the messageboard environment.

greendragon
08-30-2003, 02:33 PM
no relation to THIS green dragon

Joe Mantis
08-30-2003, 06:58 PM
Lynux6gold

you've got mail.

neit
09-01-2003, 01:29 AM
kymus - is your "green dragon" also called "dragon shadow, tiger crane style" ? if it is we may have been learnign the same thing.

jimbob
09-01-2003, 05:15 PM
Do the Green Dragon people have a website?

IronFist
09-01-2003, 11:02 PM
I don't think so. Not the Green Dragon we're talking about, at least.

IronFist

Dark Knight
09-02-2003, 07:11 AM
Sifu Allen does not have a web site. I wish he did. I own many of his tapes and would like to spend time with him.

greendragon
09-02-2003, 09:05 AM
jimbob.. the only green dragon website i have seen is a seven star mantis headquarters.

IronFist
09-02-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Dark Knight
Sifu Allen does not have a web site. I wish he did. I own many of his tapes and would like to spend time with him.

What tapes you do have? I've seen Stone Warrior, Iron Vest, and Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting.

IronFist

Lynux6gold
09-02-2003, 07:34 PM
Hi guys, I was misinformed about the videotape business. I just had it clarified to me that they do indeed still run it. Ads are run monthly in Inside Kungfu magazine.

For some reason I was under the impression that it was a thing of the past. So order away.

IronFist
09-02-2003, 10:34 PM
Dude can you get us a discount on the tapes?

:D :D :D

j/k, don't ask if it will get you in trouble.

IronFist

IronFist
09-02-2003, 10:41 PM
No wait, but I do have a serious question.

Ask Sifu Allen why Stone Warrior is not performed symmetrically. On the tape I ordered from him, some of the movements are done only to one side. Training in this manner will create lopsidedness and imbalanced muscles.

For example, the first movement is symmetrical, but the second one, on the tape, goes like this (I might not be quite right, I haven't seen or done it in a few years):

Bow stance with left foot in front, facing forward. Hands at waist in fists. Swing the right arm back, up, and diagonally down in front of your body till your right fist is by your left fist at your waist, then bring it back up in a figure 8 pattern up by your left shoulder and across your face. About this time the left hand comes up to the side, crosses your face, and does a down palm block by the stomach. By this time the right hand is passing the right side of the waist and opens into a palm which is brought back around and into a forward palm strike over the left downward palm block.

Ok, that will make sense to you if you know the form. Anyway, on the video he makes no mention of doing that the opposite way (ie. right bow stance, left hand starts and left hand ends in a palm strike). That makes no sense to me.

Of course, when I did Stone Warrior, everything that wasn't the same on both sides I did half on one side and half on the other side. So for the above movement I did the first half as described, and then reversed everything for the second half. Obviously, it makes no sense to train different things on different sides. I wanted no lopsidedness in either my size OR my strength, so I did everything evenly. I'm just curious why he didn't mention that on the tape. Or, if you're not supposed to do it to both sides, what the rationale behind that is.

Anyway, ask him for me if that's the right way.

I wrote him a letter 4 or 5 years ago asking that same question but never heard back from him.

Alright, later.

IronFist

Dark Knight
09-03-2003, 04:44 AM
What tapes you do have? I've seen Stone Warrior, Iron Vest, and Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting

Stone warrior, Three sectional, single double edged knife, fundamentals, snake form, drunken form, butterfly knives, and a couple others I forget at this moment.

Lynux6gold
09-03-2003, 06:09 AM
Nah, I don't think I could get a discount even for myself. Also, current students are only allowed to buy tapes for material they already have.

As for your Stone Warrior question, I do not have the set yet myself, so I would not feel comfortable asking such a question out of the blue. (If I had the set, I would probably answer your question myself).

You could try writing him another letter.

Pilgrim
09-03-2003, 09:33 AM
Stone Warrior is done on both sides,that's very clear from the tape, probably why there was no reply. It's a great school as are other off-shoots from Feeman Ong. There's an interesting info on this board in the Northern Shaolin In Seattle in another part of this forum. John Eusibio and others look great as is the info on Kao Tao Shung; Shao Fu Yin and Chung Fu Yin are great forms, at some point I'd like to learn another Shantung Shaolin style form.

IronFist
09-03-2003, 11:22 AM
^ Maybe it's clear on your tape. They do reshoot the tapes every so often. Maybe you and I have different versions. Does he do the second movement on both sides on yours?

IronFist

All-Knowing-One
09-03-2003, 02:33 PM
ok?

Pilgrim
09-28-2003, 08:27 PM
Hey
I remember that Sifu Allen used to sell special herbs that were an integral part of some of their training/exercise sets such as the body exercise, stone warrior, the nine times, iron palm. Then the herbs were not available. Are they available now?

Shaolin-Do
09-28-2003, 09:14 PM
Yes. But its not so easy to get them anymore...
First you must walk very far. Very very far as a matter of fact, into some dark woods. There you must live for a period of no less than 3 months, and after that time you must kill a bear with your hands. After completing the above task, you must swim to the bottom of the ocean and root a mermaid. When you have raised your mer-baby to be the strongest of them all, you can climb mt. fuji. Atop mt. fuji you will find a cave with an elderly man. If you defeat this elderly man with a fork and set of scrabble letters you may speak to the apothecary who carries the aforementioned herbs.

shaolin kungfu
09-28-2003, 09:15 PM
LOL:D

Serpent
09-28-2003, 09:29 PM
That's obviously not true. You can't root a mermaid - she ain't got no... you know.

:rolleyes:

Shaolin-Do
09-28-2003, 09:30 PM
Maybe its just hidden beneath the scales?

Serpent
09-28-2003, 09:37 PM
Oooh! I'm thinking the fish scale equivalent of a paper cut!

:eek:

Shaolin-Do
09-28-2003, 09:39 PM
Hopefully they come with an owners manual that has a warning.

Serpent
09-28-2003, 09:44 PM
But think of the BJ's!

Shaolin-Do
09-28-2003, 09:46 PM
I know some broads that must be part mermaid.
:eek:

shaolin kungfu
09-28-2003, 09:47 PM
But think of the BJ's!

But what about the uber strong mer-baby?

Serpent
09-28-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


But what about the uber strong mer-baby?

:confused:

Shaolin-Do
09-28-2003, 10:05 PM
:confused:

May I use this time to once again voice my distaste in the fact that we cannot use the font size option on smilies.

Leimeng
09-28-2003, 11:51 PM
~ Is it actuall possible to have a discussion on this forumn without puerile individuals highjacking the entire topic and ruining the discussion for everyone?
~ There used to be (in the not too distant past), several good discussions on mulitiple topics with experianced practicioners who could actually contribute to the over all knowledge of the board.
~ Not it is becoming a mental circle jerk...

Peace

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

T'ai Ji Monkey
09-28-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
:confused:
May I use this time to once again voice my distaste in the fact that we cannot use the font size option on smilies.

Of course not you big dummy, the smillies are graphic files and not part of the font character sets.

Have fun developing graphic files that respond to font parameters, hey, you might make some big bucks from it as so far everybody else has failed.
;)

Serpent
09-28-2003, 11:58 PM
Leimeng - in a word. No.

Of course, instead of just whining about it, you could ignore the nonsense and just post about kung fu, etc.

Just a suggestion.

:)

anton
09-29-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Serpent
But think of the BJ's!

A man was walking on the beach and spied another man sunning himself on a towel. The prone figure was a well-built individual, obviously a body-builder, but his head was only a bit larger than a tennis ball. He opened his eyes and caught the walking man staring at him. "I'm so sorry," the man said, "I shouldn't stare, but I couldn't help noticing that your body and your head are not in proportion."

"That's an interesting story," the other man said, sitting up on the
towel. "Sit down here with me and have a beer and I'll tell you the
story. You see, I was on this very beach, walking along like you were, when I saw a mermaid out there by the rocks. I swam out and snuck up on her and caught her. As you might know, mermaids will give you three wishes so that you will release them.

Well I'd always been a 97-pound-weakling sort of guy and couldn't get girls so the first wish I wished to have the body of Arnold Schwarzenegger. And POOF! I was changed instantly into a strong, virile man. Next I thought to myself I will need a place to take the girls I will be getting, so I wished for a million dollar beach front mansion, and behind you is my magnificant home. So now I have the body and the place, all I need is the girl, right? So I turned to the mermaid and wished that I could make love to her. She explained that she was just a fish from the waist down and could not make love with a human.

So I said to her, "So how about a little head?"

Shaolin-Do
09-29-2003, 10:05 AM
Ehehehe...
At least were keeping this thread up top?
:)

kwoon
12-15-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Dark Knight
I have many tapes from him. I like his approach.

He belives a good big man will beat a good small man. His strengthening tapes are good.

if you have been thinking of buying his tapes I reccomend them.


Anyone interested in selling their tapes? I have not been able to get anyone mail back from Green Dragon for over 2 years. I want to buy some tapes that I don't have but can't find them. Anyone have any to sell?

Lynux6gold
12-15-2003, 06:20 PM
1.) yeah.

2.) Don't quote me on this, but from what I gather, the White Lotus system was developed after a large summit of renowned CMA masters of many styles was held. From what I've learned/seen, I can tell you it is VERY circular and very effective. It has some Shaolin elements, but very few animal components (if any). I'm not sure I would call it an "Umbrella" system, though, as that seems to have negative connotations regarding leaving vital things out. White lotus is very comprehensive.

3.) Several people, but the only one I know by name is Master Femon Ong. Sifu Allen is also a second-generation disciple of GM Chang, but did not study under him.

4.) That's a different Green Dragon school; ours is only in Ohio.

And I don't know what to tell you guys about the ordering of tapes. To my knowledge they are still running the ads and stuff. I just don't know.

Lynux6gold
12-15-2003, 06:42 PM
Yeah I don't know much more than you do about the White Lotus [martial arts] history. Most of the hits I get for it on google are for the lower-class resistance force that appeared from time to time to stop oppression. Some of these briefly mention the kungfu aspect, but not to any extent.

Some of the "White Lotus" schools I've seen on the internet just use it as their name without actually teaching the White Lotus style. Like Green Dragon Studios versus a Green Dragon style.

Douglas Wong says "White lotus system," but I don't know anything about him. Looks like he's taught some celebrities, though.

Uechi Rooster
06-30-2004, 11:39 AM
I'm looking for original Green Dragon tapes if anyone wants to part with theirs. Contact me if you're willing to sell.

Looking for

Nine Power Development Exercises
I Nan Kuen (One South Fist)
Tang Lang Peng Pu Ch'uan (Praying Mantis style)
Bok Mei Hu Ch'uan (White Eyebrow style)
Pai Tou She Ta Ts'ung Shih (Snake style)
Meng Lung Pai Hu Yu (Northern White Dragon)
Yeh Pao Ta Ts'ung Shu Lin (Leopard)
Butterfly Knives Wan Ning To Ming Tao
South Shaolin Pa Kua Chang



if anyone's interested PM me please
because of my low post count (1) check out my ebay feedback
user id: collectiblecrap. 100% positive feedback.

Thanks in advance!

IronFist
06-30-2004, 09:03 PM
I've seen Stone Warrior, Iron Vest, and Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting. I don't have them anymore, tho.

I've heard their forms tapes are kinda sloppy, and someone told me their bagua sucked.

I got a 1998 catalog and a 2002 catalog and they were exactly the same, except for the date on the front.

Just so you don't inadvertenly get yourself in any trouble, copying tapes is copyright infringement, and mailing copies is mail fraud.

mickey
08-17-2004, 06:11 PM
Greetings,

There is a seller on ebay that goes by the name of kwoon who is selling a Green Dragon Stone Warrior book/dvd companion set as well as an Iron Vest book/dvd book companion set. Did Sifu John Allen sanction this?

mickey

IronFist
08-17-2004, 10:53 PM
Got a link?

mickey
08-18-2004, 04:08 AM
Hi Iron,

I am not that computer savvy. Once at ebay hit search, then find seller, then type in kwoon.

mickey

Dark Knight
08-18-2004, 05:48 AM
Nice price

David Jamieson
08-18-2004, 06:08 AM
would he need to sanction the selling of something that is made to be sold?

I don't understand why he would need to sanction the sale of the items? He does sell them himself anyway in the backs of magazines and what not.

I have a bunch of his Pa Kua stuff, it's really quite good.

Royal Dragon
08-18-2004, 07:04 AM
If he is copi'n it, and selling it, I think Allen would need to give his permission. If he is just selling an old copy he bought years ago, then he can do what he wants.

Buddy
08-18-2004, 07:23 AM
Some of the worst bagua I've seen

David Jamieson
08-18-2004, 07:31 AM
Some of the worst bagua I've seen

you haven't seen a lot of pakua then hahahaha.

there's tons of crud out there in every art and the internal arts are no exception.

I think the worst Pa Kua I've seen so far is teh "bogwa" clips i once saw from a school where they claimed to teach hwarang and bogwa.

Now that was bad.

as for the green dragon stuff it's not so bad as all that. I've seen worse...as stated.

IronFist
08-18-2004, 07:12 PM
So can someone post a link?

mickey
08-19-2004, 05:00 AM
IronFist,

Go to the site and hit search at the top.

Click option Link to seller

Enter the seller's name: kwoon

That will take you to the site.

Or simply type in Stone Warrior in the search engine.

mickey

mickey
08-19-2004, 05:04 AM
I hope this works,



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73992&item=3694880323&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

mickey

mickey
08-19-2004, 05:05 AM
YESSS!!!!!

mickey

IronFist
08-20-2004, 03:54 PM
Wow, they make a Stone Warrior book and DVD! I had Stone Warrior on VHS long ago.

Ben Gash
08-21-2004, 09:02 AM
How do you know Kwoon isn't John allen?

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 10:23 AM
I know there are a couple extended family people here.

Whats with the long responce time? I just recieved their catalog (Same as the one I ordered 10 years ago). I asked two months ago.

Any knowledge why they are behind?

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 10:24 AM
BTW, I have some of their other videos. Good instructionals if anyone wanted to know.

MasterKiller
03-10-2005, 10:56 AM
While we're at it, why does it take me like 2 months to get a Victoria Secret catalog, too?

Judge Pen
03-10-2005, 12:01 PM
What's the lineage to Green Dragon studios? I've seen promotional videos and they teach a lot of diverse material (like another school that I know) and I'm curious as to where all the material was learned from. I've heard they do excellent conditioning videos too.

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 12:06 PM
I have heard John Allen talk about ive forgotten.

He feels that you should have a broad range of knowledge from a ranof Kung Fu systems.

His strengthening programs are pretty good.

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 12:07 PM
I have heard John Allen talk about his instructors, but Ive forgotten.

He feels that you should have a broad range of knowledge from a range of Kung Fu systems.

His strengthening programs are pretty good.

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 12:10 PM
While we're at it, why does it take me like 2 months to get a Victoria Secret catalog, too?


I get mine pretty quick, I have looking a a thong that would look great on me.....

Judge Pen
03-10-2005, 12:16 PM
I have heard John Allen talk about ive forgotten.

He feels that you should have a broad range of knowledge from a ranof Kung Fu systems.

His strengthening programs are pretty good.


Ok, but where did he learn all of these systems? I agree that a broad range of systems can be good if they are taught properly. I come from a school that's in the same boat, so to speak.

The man is a hoss, there's no doubt about that.

MonkeySlap Too
03-10-2005, 12:47 PM
Well, I've seen thier Baji, Xing-Yi, and White Eyebrow - all pretty much done as South Shaolin... So I can't really recommend it as 'authentic' training in those systems...

A lot of it looks like it was learned from watching others, without the Jiben Gong for the specific style.

They do look like they train hard, though. And I have heard very good things about them from Dave Cater over at IKF.

But I'd spend my money elsewhere...

Royal Dragon
03-10-2005, 05:48 PM
I was told by someone they used to tape forms at competitions, then work them out and sell them on the tape. The someone specifically claimed they did that to him.

As for thier core stuff, I don't know. I heard they were connected to The "Ong" family out of Malaysia at one time or another. I believe it was Freeman Ong specifically. I know the Ong Family teaches a Norhtern/Southern mix Tai Tzu line in Malaysia

Dark Knight
03-10-2005, 06:15 PM
Well, I've seen thier Baji, Xing-Yi, and White Eyebrow - all pretty much done as South Shaolin...

But I'd spend my money elsewhere...

I have heard from other people that because they do the cross section their styles dont look the way they should. Someone here commented that they do have the power to make them work.

Who else is putting out a good quality of higher level information. As with any style (Karate, Ju-Jitsu, BJJ, kung fu...) so many that are crappy. I hate to spend money on poor quality.

I was told by someone they used to tape forms at competitions, then work them out and sell them on the tape. The someone specifically claimed they did that to him.

The first catalog I got from them was in 1986. He had the same people on it that he has now (Same tape from 20 years ago), they have been doing it for some time back then. I dont know if they had a small recorder back then to go around with to tournaments.

He has some information that you wouldnt see at a competition (not because its a secrete but its not competition type stuff) also he has forms that are related, (Long fist style and Tams style for example) so I would think he had learned them from some one.

In his videos he talked about lineage, I have forgotten, but there are a couple people on here who prob know.

I do remember he talked about he started in Shotokan and got into the chinese arts because he was interested in the weapons. From there he kept learning.

I am suprised he is alive today, he is getting old.

IronFist
03-10-2005, 06:59 PM
There have been a few Green Dragon threads here.

I did Stone Warrior for a while but it's nothing compared to lifting weights.

I've heard some of their forms tapes are laughable. They do seem to focus on speed, and it seems like maybe some of the crispness or sharpness is lost in the process.

I've never heard how well they can fight.

I'd say they're probably better than the average kung fu tapes, tho.

And Sifu Allen is right when he says most people lack the strength to pull off the techniques they're learning. I like how he focuses a lot on power development, even if I don't agree with his method of attaining it.

IronFist
03-10-2005, 07:02 PM
I know there are a couple extended family people here.

Whats with the long responce time? I just recieved their catalog (Same as the one I ordered 10 years ago). I asked two months ago.

Any knowledge why they are behind?

You know what? I got their like 1999 catalog, and then I got their 2002 catalog as well, and it was exactly the same, except it had 2002 written on the front instead of 1999. They both took a long time to come from the time I ordered.

Royal Dragon
03-10-2005, 08:18 PM
In all honesty, I thought thier Tai Tzu forms were really, really bad. They were very off balance, and the body structure was horrific. As bad as I am, they were far worse than me. There was no sign of tucking the tail bone, keeping the spine straight, rounding the shoulders, and sinking the chest. Infact it was just the opposite. The butt was out, back was arched, shoulders were pulled back, chest puffed out.

I can see why they need to put such an emphisis on strength, thier body structure and mechanics are so bad that they NEED gobbs and gobbs of raw muscle power to compensate.

Now, if you are already a practitioner of a style they sell, you can get the tapes just for the choreography, but you'd better be WELL versed in your art as you will have to correct the stuffing out of what is presented.

No offense meant, I just am calling as I see it, just as others were kind enough to have called me when I moved like that.

I have to say though, I do like the way the vid was layed out and presented. It's easy to learn from. They break it down step by step, and from various angles.

Paul T England
03-11-2005, 02:50 AM
Hi,

Why has Green Dragon not got a website and why arn't the forms put out on DVD yet? I would love to see them and other NTSC tapes but with conversion charges etc. its just too much for a poor English man!

I have read articles overr the years from Sifu Allen and they are very interesting.

Paul

Dark Knight
03-11-2005, 06:26 AM
I've never heard how well they can fight.

I heard they do not spar.

I like the way they present the techniques, and they do have the strength, but I dont think someone who does forms and doesnt fight will fight very well. I have met people like that before, they looked incredible in drills and forms, but put on gloves and they didnt have the other skills to put it all together.

I did Stone Warrior for a while but it's nothing compared to lifting weights.

Same here, its cool to do an acient (or old chinese) program, but I do get more from weights. I did Stone Warrior for about 8 months, it was time consuming and while I did get results I do get more from weights.


No offense meant, I just am calling as I see it, just as others were kind enough to have called me when I moved like that.

Good feedback.

Ben Gash
03-11-2005, 11:54 AM
I heard they only spar once a year. I saw their northern leopard tape once, and as has been pointed out, there was no flavour and consequently it looked poor.
Paul, I got an NTSC VCR in cash converters for Ł25. Most mid level up VCRs now play NTSC.

IronFist
03-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Someone once told me that Green Dragon Studios is trying to collect as many forms as they can. That's why they offer a million from a ton of different styles. I dunno. If they don't spar that's kinda weird. Maybe not for a kung fu school. I dunno.

mickey
03-11-2005, 07:21 PM
Greetings,

I have purchased some of their stuff many years ago. I got the opinion that what they were selling, form wise, was not really their core curriculum. I think the plan to release the good stuff stopped after all of the contoversy about them came about.

I also remember from their 6+ hour discussion tape that most of the students train primarily on their own. They get together once a week at the studio. Unfortunately, this offers a lot of time to reinforce structural errors. From what they do, I sense that they train more than once a day, racking up 3 to 6 hours of training time per day. If there is anything lacking in their movements it is the lack of torque, waist power; but that is a shortcoming that is not unique to them. It is almost pandemic in the martial arts world.

He also had the goal of developing a large "cache" of forms from which to draw from. I don't think that they would ever deny "stealing" a form. Stealing a form can be a skill in itself and it is one of the reasons why many Chinese masters would leave out a move or two in public performance.

Re Stone Warrior: While touted as the best all round strength development form, I do not remember John Allen ever saying in print that weight lifting was unnecessary. I think that he wrote that weight lifting was only allowed after a protracted period of internal development (Stone Warrior falls into that category). He even wrote that he lifted weights in addition to his other training when he was with Feeman Ong.

Now how many purchasers of the Stone Warrior graduated to the point where they weight train in conjunction with the set (not consecutively of course). IronFist? Would you be willing to give it a try? I could not think of a better candidate.

Just a few words,

mickey

Royal Dragon
03-11-2005, 08:10 PM
I have never done Stone Warrior, but I have done dynamic tension sets. I found that they are really good to do right AFTER traditional western weights.

MonkeySlap Too
03-11-2005, 08:39 PM
Oh, the 'good stuff.'

Somehow I doubt it.

Royal Dragon
03-12-2005, 05:24 AM
Ditto

























This message is too short

Judge Pen
03-14-2005, 03:51 PM
I have never done Stone Warrior, but I have done dynamic tension sets. I found that they are really good to do right AFTER traditional western weights.

I'm not a fan of weights, but I've never tried my dynamic tension sets after lifting weights. Interesting perspective.

lotus storm
04-14-2005, 03:43 PM
(Got this off another bb by some people who discuss their direct experiences training there and on the strength programs. I've been in the chinese arts a little more than a year and have learned the continuous palms set and goun gee kuen strength and power set from some of their tapes a friend has, looking back I found the March thread here about 'Green Dragon' and wondered if some people here might find some interest out of it, maybe not.

This guy whose post I have pasted is answering questions from the other posters in that original thread from dragonslist. Had to post it in 3 parts because of length llimit and the old post being "invalid" (too old I guess)---lotus storm.)

Lair of the Green Dragon

part 1

I found this old thread [re: Green Dragon School discussion] and got curious as an ex coworker of mine had used to train at the Green Dragon school so I did a little emailing and Google research, if anybody still cares.

Anyone have any of Green Dragon's videos that they would like to sell? Anyone have their Iron Palm material?

Apparently the herbs necessary for the Iron Palm training are no longer being made available---at last word---through the mail order part of the program. Too many hassles with customs and so on to be able to guarantee prompt delivery and deal with backlogs of orders. Could not find nor haven't seen notice of anybody selling their tapes privately for a long long time.

Their friends at the Chicoine shuai chiao group in Ohio are still going strong. They seem to spend a lot of time criticizing other shuai chiao people, though.

Well in Chicoine's view most of them deserve the criticism! The understanding I have (based on the word of a couple friends who live in that area and have trained under Allen or have friends who have trained at Chicoine's school) is that Chicoine sees it as his duty to uphold the traditions of classical shuai chiao and kung fu training as it was taught to him by the late Grandmaster Tung Shen Chang, who adopted him and taught him material shown to no one else (which, it is said, he can demonstrate), this is a point of honor with him and of respect for his teacher.

For example, in an old issue of IKF (which I don't own, but have seen in Xerox form) a reader had written in questioning Chicoine & Allen's lineages as well as the source of the material they taught; suggesting that proper credit wasn't being given, in that case, to a Master Femon (spelling) Ong. Next issue or so, John Allen replied with a lengthy list of specific examples that pointed out that Ong was *not* responsible for the material in question, as well as some detailed history of his and Chicoine's past dealings with M. Ong as having been students of his (and why they left Ong's organization). Chang of course was one primary source of some of Chicoine's teaching material (also it was pointed out that Chang had had to correct much of what *was* attributable to Ong in order to make it work correctly); Allen had trained under at least 6 major Chinese masters.

And the impression gleaned from that letter, in conjunction with several of the columns written for IKF by both Allen & Chicoine, was that the general "Americanization" of the CMA that has taken place over the years in various ways and for various reasons is not necessarily, in their views and according to some very specific reasons which they have outlined at varous times in the past (including on many of their videotapes), a (as Martha Stewart might put it) "good thing."

I used to see them in the different martial arts magazines Inside Kung Fu, Inside Karate, Black Belt,etc....I thought they were fake because they would advertise every style of kung fu known to man even some very rare styles

It comes up from time to time in various forums that anyone who claims expertise (or "mastery") in a large number of Chinese styles *must* be fraudulent in some way.

But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.

In what some consider the more "Classically oriented" approaches to learning Chinese forms & styles, a student is properly taught to master the *principles* and fundamental building blocks (stances, punches, kicks, all the blocking techniques and etc) that make up *all* Chinese forms and styles, just as a musician learns scales & riffs & chord progressions. Then the differences, as well as the similarities, between the various styles, is ingrained as the student adds more and more forms from differing (sometimes starkly contrasting) styles to his or her repertoire (when such variety is available in the training). It is "mastery" of all the underlying Chinese fighting & training principles that is of supreme importance in this approach and which provides an important key to understanding such a point of view.

I'm surprised that they don't have a website - in this day and age, a greoup with so high a profile and which is trying to market a product should have one. I believe they are still advertising their tapes in Inside Kung Fu magazine.

They have gone back "underground" as far as the mainstream CMA community is concerned. They place a high premium on training in the "old ways" of the masters who taught prior to 1930, and have the training material at their disposal to do so. In the old schools this kind of demanding work washed out better than 99% of the people who wanted to learn the teachings, and according to those methods you do not "simplify" or "dumb down" the work for the beginners, it is up to them, if they are truly dedicated and interested, to rise to the level of the demands.

Yes, I just checked and their ad is still in the latest (jan 05) "Inside KungFu."

I aquired some Long Fist tapes of thiers, and was shocked at how badly their perfomance was.

Not surprising. They don't do hardly anything the way the mainstream, sport-style schools do. For one thing, they believe (and it is said can demonstrate this) that the material they train on actually develops the chi in the body for application in fighting and power. And they don't maneuver (for example in fighting work) the way most schools do, either. What is seen on the tapes reflects such non-orthodox (but as taught by the older masters) approaches and works, in their paradigm, in application.

Also, what were the specific tapes in question and who were the performers? I've seen roughly 40 or 50 of Green Dragon's tapes (including a couple on which Gene Chicoine makes a guest appearance as lecturer) over the past 16 years, give or take, and can't think of one where there wasn't a good reason (given and explained during the step by step teaching breakdown, btw) for what is seen during the opening demonstration performances (which, iirr, are done at "half to three-quarter speed" most of the time). Their tapes won several awards for excellence from some of the industry magazines & Allen has a reputation for setting, and adherence to, very high standards and being extremely detail-oriented in all areas of his teaching and tapes production. Therefore making the critique cited from the referenced post very puzzling, to say the least, unless it was made mostly from a conceptual standpoint, since their approach in that regard to CMA forms, programs, systems, teaching et al is, as pointed out, hardly conventional from almost any standpoint. Which is of course one more reason why they have generated so much controversy at certain times.

lotus storm
04-14-2005, 03:46 PM
Lair of the Green Dragon

part 2 (of 3)

...In closing, I found this in a Google cache, apparently posted by another ex-Green Dragon student (from a "cyberkwoon" forum):

First of all, remember that I am not a CMA instructor, let alone a Green Dragon instructor; nor do I have the slightest idea what your background is or your own personal goals. Ideally you should contact the Studio for answers to questions like yours; but as it can be difficult at times waiting on the mails, and as it seems the staff there isn't responding to letters these days, I'll give it a try. But keep very firmly in mind that my piddling overview in no way reflects what either Sifu Allen or a member of his instructional staff would say. In fact, you probably ought to consider everything I say kind of in the way of a 'generic' report on what the typical---if there is such a thing---aspiring kung fu student who gives such training an honest effort might expect from his or her efforts at tackling quality kung fu material as taught in the way Green Dragon makes it available in these tapes...

Apropos of all that, consider that the way they used to tell you to do it was to submit more than one tape you're interested in when you ordered; to say something briefly about your training goals & background; and to politely and humbly request that Sifu Allen choose the set he feels would be your best option at the time from among those.

Now, 'insights'? About the best thing I guess I could say from that standpoint is that, in my opinion, it's important to have a very thorough grounding in the basics if you want to be successful with this kind of material and the training time and effort required to achieve good results. Some of these things are quite difficult to learn off of a videotape if you can't discern what's going on with the footwork---and that usually relates to stances---or the routes the arms & hands should follow (all the basic blocks and punches, plus a grasp of how to apply isometric tension while moving in certain cases), especially as these upperbody routes RELATE to the footwork! (ie the maneuvering.)

[NOTE: With all the material, there just aren't any shortcuts; and if you try to shortcut it you will eventually pay for such haste in the long run, in one way or another.]

You also need to know how to breathe with the diaphragm. This is of paramount significance with respect to authentic, so-called 'Classical' Chinese Kung Fu training; as I understand it, none of this stuff will ever work correctly for you---especially anything in the way of the 'internal' aspects of a form or program---if you aren't breathing with the diaphragm. It takes some practice to be able to keep maximum tension on while doing strength work and still breathe easily using the d. muscle. But it is possible, and it is an absolute MUST.

It helped me quite a bit to have had a pretty good indoctrination into doing Chinese sets based on having learned the Bok Pai over the course of several weeks' guidance at the Kent (State University) Club branch of the school, which carried over into my attempts to learn other fighting forms from the videos (I've often wondered if it wouldn't be helpful for Green Dragon to put out some type of video covering nothing but the subject of How To Learn Chinese Forms & Exercises From a Video, because my guess is that there are many students out there who could benefit from such a tape, and that would still include me). There's a pretty good likelihood that I would have failed miserably in attempting to learn this kind of material solely from a videotape format if I hadn't had such a 'hands-on' head start (but once again, that was me, and may not necessarily be the case for you or anyone else). So, I would tell anyone trying Green Dragon forms to take just one that really appeals to them and really take their time breaking it down into little bits & pieces, relating every move to the fundamentals like the stances used & the stance sequences, what types of blocks & punches the form is composed of, how the 3 gates are dealt with, and so forth. In other words, progress slowly and take your time digesting the multiple instructional segments (and don't forget the combat applications at the end! This is where most students, even some who've been in the arts for years, get tripped up. The Chinese don't fight the way sport-tournament fighters do; lots of the stylisms and techniques you see in the combat applications may not make a lot of sense to you until you begin to understand what is really possible in the authentic [the way the old masters did it] kung fu fighting arts; this starts to happen a little while after you've been training when it starts to dawn on you that this is one of the main things the strength programs are really about): you'll be rewarded for such an approach tenfold as compared with rushing along trying to gulp the material down (as I have tried to do on more than one occasion). Remember, if you're a serious student, this is something you'll be doing every day for the rest of your life; so be patient, and do your best to be thorough---it's a good habit to make right from the start.

lotus storm
04-14-2005, 03:48 PM
part 3 (of 3)

Bear in mind that Green Dragon provides several tapes covering what they consider to be the 'Fundamentals' of authentic kung fu instruction; well, there's a REASON they do this! If you aren't understanding something on one of the advanced tapes, there's a good chance it's because you're trying to 'fly' before you learned the right way to crawl. Read the tapes brochure THOROUGHLY. Then, reread it. And again, after you've been working on a few forms, or even just a few steps from a form. Repeat as necessary.

Also I found it helped a lot to have Sifu Allen's articles, written for Inside Kung Fu back in the late 80s/early 90s, to use as reference points (one example: to read about what the 'half-second paradigm' means as it relates to true Chinese-style fighting; another: what the significance of closing the centerline is). Probably not everyone who wants to will have those old issues at their disposal, but it's a big plus, in my personal estimation, if you can get them. They were invaluable to me; but it's also true that the content of several of them was somewhat 'controversial' in its impact on the MA community as a whole. You have to keep an open, 'beginner's' mind. It really wasn't until I spent time working on the Shaolin 5-Animals Strength & Health sets that I finally began to fully shake off my biases, about how to train daily & apply strength in unorthodox techniques, etc, biases which had been based on my background in various sports disciplines, for example; who knows what piece of material or part of a lecture will do that for you, if you even need such a conceptual turnaround in the first place.

It helps to have someone to train with. Personally I've tried to find good training partners several times over the years, with little luck---few people ever want to stick with the work, particularly on a daily basis, once they see how much of a commitment is really involved (chi or no chi!) But if you have the option, try to train with someone else at least a couple times a week; yet also keep in mind that there will always be times you're just going to have to crawl up that big slippery wall with your own two hands, no one can do it for you. At many points in some of the strength programs you will have no choice but to face this harsh reality if you want to get through it; but it's all the more rewarding when you do. As Sifu Allen puts it on one of the tapes, these things will always give back to you far more than you ever put into them; and you can't say that about too many things in life (to paraphrase him). And in my experience, this has indeed proven out on several occasions.

I don't own the Travelers Cane, so I can't say anything about it except that it comes out of White Lotus, and White Lotus is one of Sifu Allen's favorite systems; what better recommendation would you need I do own the Continuous Palms, and it's a fantastic piece of material; every other thing you'll ever work on in your kung fu will open up a new angle on what that set contains. Virtually inexhaustible, and a supreme example, as the brochure points out, of true kung fu circularity. Again, you must relate it to the combat applications provided, and these to Chinese fighting principles as a whole.

What other tapes do I own? I honestly think the best way for me to answer that is not with a comprehensive, detailed list but instead to say that every single one I do own has provided something of value that none of the others did---even though I may not have appreciated it when I first started to work on a particular set. What's more interesting to note, from my perspective, is that after you've worked with a nice selection of a broad range of different types of material---some more linear, some more circular, something 'simple' as compared to something more highly complex, a beginner's fighting set of only a couple dozen or so moves as compared to a strength set that may have hundreds of steps, or something almost exclusively 'external' as opposed to something more exclusively 'internal'---you begin to note certain patterns that turn up time and time again; and after you work a while---several months in some cases, a few years in others---the significance of these patterns begins to dawn on you in a way you would NEVER have anticipated: and it's IMMENSELY gratifying when this happens. Just as it's immensely satisfying, even 'enlightening' to a certain degree, the first time you feel the 'chi' in the body begin to stir, and later to move, and later...Well, some things you're going to have to discover for yourself. And the key to this discovery is the fact that it takes work and sacrifice and discipline and commitment of a degree not often encountered in too many places anymore these days; but work, sacrifice, discipline, and commitment that are all well worth it, even when it might not seem that way on a particular day or during a particularly challenging session of arm grabs or Master Kao's stances, to name a couple of examples.

To sum up: no matter which form you happen to be working on or learning at any given time in your training, never forget that it's just one part of a much larger whole; and this whole, in time (plus work plus forms plus repetitions), adds up to something far, far greater than the sum of these individual parts. You'll certainly have good days and bad days; try to keep this in mind when the going gets a little rougher than you may have anticipated; because the pay-off will be far more than you could have anticipated as well.

Hope some small part of this was helpful.

Likewise from this poster.

(Ditto--lotus storm)

chessman71
04-14-2005, 07:24 PM
I was a big fan of Green Dragon southern shaolin, animal, and strength sets back in the early 90's. Those areas seem to be their specialties and if I was near them, I'd be seeking instruction from them in those areas.

However, like any school that does multiple systems, the Green Draogn folks do some things well and others not so well IMO. For instance, I would never learn taiji or bagua off of their tapes because they obviously don't specialize in those systems. From the posts above, it seems the author is defending everything Green Dragon does as the "old way" of training but I would say that they just do some things well and some things poorly.

I used to own the white lotus continuous palm tape and while I thought it was good, I was disappointed that none of the beginner Green Dragon tapes had prepared me for doing it because White Lotus footwork was very, very different from those beginner southern shaolin sets. If Green Dragon thought so much of the White Lotus system, then they should have at least released sets at the beginner and intermediate levels from that system. But then they don't seem to care much about responding to consumer needs.

Dave C.

IronFist
04-14-2005, 10:30 PM
I've written some long posts on Stone Warrior. You can search for them using the search feature. I've never seen any of their form tapes, tho, but I've seen their "intro" tape or whatever where they demonstrate a lot of stuff.

Can they fight?

lotus storm
04-15-2005, 10:16 AM
Can they fight?
They can fight.
From the posts above, it seems the author is defending everything Green Dragon does as the "old way" of training but I would say that they just do some things well and some things poorly
Maybe that is because it is taken out of original context, I will have to go find the whole orighinal thread if it's still there. But how do you mean "poorly", in relation to what or to what goal? Curious.

chessman71
04-15-2005, 06:31 PM
When I said poorly, I meant that Green Dragon obviously emphasizes strength sets and southern shaolin, and does those things well. Other styles were done poorly i.e the body movement was more southern shaolin than the type of movement that the style in question specializes in. For instance, the taiji was way too tense and was clearly not being performed correctly. The bagua also was very tense and tended to display disconnected arm movements. The fact that it was linear bagua was immaterial (several styles have linear bagua). The disconnected arm movements and tension should not be present in either taiji or bagua. Looking at commonly accepted bagua and taiji experts will clearly show you the difference.

Again, any school that does that many styles is bound to do some better than others. It would be impossible for them not to so I'm not really knocking them. What I'm saying is that Green Dragon should admit they specialize in certain areas and leave it at that. Anyone ordering their tapes should be aware of those specialties as well and not buy claims that poorly done styles are simply being performed in the "old way."

Dave C.

Royal Dragon
04-16-2005, 08:19 AM
I don't know about all of it, but I have thier Tai tzu tapes. my critique:

Body structure - horrible

Mechanics - horrible

Flavor/flow of Long Fist - even worse

fundementals period - horrible

This is comming from me, a guy who ain't that good himself, so from a more taleneted player of Chinese Long Fist, I'd imagine they are most likely going to look even worse.

They all seem to be really sculpted, and monster strong though.

IronFist
04-16-2005, 10:09 AM
They can fight.
From the posts above, it seems the author is defending everything Green Dragon does as the "old way" of training

Like I said, can they fight?

The only vid I've seen of two "old school masters" fighting was these two old TMA guys circling around each other in a ring bonking each other on the heads with hammer fists. A first year MMA student could have mopped the floor with either of them.

IronFist
04-16-2005, 10:10 AM
I must give props to Green Dragon for emphasizing the strength aspect of things, tho. On every tape of Sifu Allen I've ever seen he repeats the concept that "you must have the strength to use the techniques you've been taught." I agree 100%.

Royal Dragon
04-16-2005, 12:23 PM
I agree to, BUT I think thier over emphisis on fittness and strengh has more to do with the fact that they totally lack the body structure, mechanics, and propper power generation methods used in Chinese martial arts PERIOD, let alone the methods specific to the styles they supposedly do.

To me, they look like forms collectors, who missed the essence of the art, especially in the Tai Tzu tapes I have. What they do on those tapes looks nothing likeTai Tzu Chang Chuan outside of the fact that the series of techniques are strung together like a Tai Tzu set would be.

lotus storm
04-17-2005, 01:37 PM
I've written some long posts on Stone Warrior. You can search for them using the search feature

Can't seem to find them. But still looking.

The only vid I've seen of two "old school masters" fighting was these two old TMA guys circling around each other in a ring bonking each other on the heads with hammer fists. A first year MMA student could have mopped the floor with either of them.

I would doubt that the two combatants were "old school masters" as defined, with demonstrations (as they frequently do or did) by Tung Shen Chang, Chicoine, Feemon Ong, or Sifu Allen himself. Looking at and analyzing the combat apps given on tape following the forms teaching is one way to gain an idea of the "flavor" of how the "old school masters" (actually trained in the old ways as opposed to just what the ads say) actually fought (centerline closure; speed [half-second paradigm in evidence] and complexity of execution & technique; maneuvering; among several other considerations).

You are aware that Allen/Green Dragon has a quite extensive video library, going back years, of: some actual "old school style" tournament matches, Grandmaster Chang in action (and taking it more seriously than he often did in many demos), modern competitors (current "high level" people according to most mainstream estimates) which they are then able to show at work in a side by side comparison and contrast evaluation etc for teaching purposes?

Those areas seem to be their specialties

By their own statement the school "specializes" in: weapons training (all 72 classical Chinese weapons plus several others), rare or unusual advanced-level fighting sets, and authentic (ie able to produce the "fabled" internal power along with other qualities, for example atypical speed in execution\) Chinese power/strength inducing sets & programs.

Would be very interested to find your (IronFist) posts on the Stone Warrior. A friend (who has a much larger batch of varying tapes than I do) has been seriously into the SW among some other strength sets for several years (and has a background as a power lifter and Div I football player as well against which to intelligently gauge and appraise the benefits of such "isotonic" approaches using programs of progressive daily repetitions), we would both like to read about your insights and experieces with the Stone Warrior training.

thnx--lotus storm

lotus storm
04-17-2005, 07:00 PM
IronFist---I am only able to find this thread so far

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34390&page=3&pp=15

from one comment it sounds like your more "in-depth" postings came in threads which may no longer be accessible?

I was surprised by this series of statements however:

You know, this thread reminds me of when I used to do Stone Warrior every day in my dorm for the first few months of freshman year (I had been doing it for a few months prior to that as well, but I only went up to 16 reps per exercise, not 36. It still took 35-40 minutes), thinking that I had some secret Chinese strength program that was going to make me stronger than all my friends in the weightroom.

Fortunately, one weekend I got the flu and when I was at home I was researching weightlifting and bodybuilding on the internet because I had been talking to some of my friends who lifted weights prior to this and was thinking about giving it a try (I thought weightlifting = bodybuilding, as do most noobs) and I found some good resources. I think that's the weekend that I bought Arnold's New Modern Bodybuilding Encyclopedia or whatever it's called, and although the routines in that book are not good for natural trainees, and it contains some physiological falacies (upper/lower abs), I still thought it was a sweet book that motivated the hell out of me. When I got back to school after I had recovered I decided to give weight lifting a try instead and the rest is history

You stopped long before ever reaching what is considered the beginning of the actual program (36 reps per exercise; 12 reps per is suggested for people who are not accustomed to such kinds of training and need to build up to the starting level)? Then how are you able to make a fair and accurate assessment of its value?

Also based on several other statements it sounds like you have never really done hardly any Chinese programs or hard work on forms. How do you justify your dismissive pov then with respect to that kind of demanding, daily, complex training?

chessman71
04-17-2005, 07:36 PM
I've never done stone warrior but I did do Green Dragon's iron buddha strength form for about a year in the early nineties. At the time I was heavily involved in choy lay fut and I was trying to strength train the "Chinese way" if you catch my drift.

From my experience, the isometrics found in Chinese strength programs add an interesting "muscle control" element to any MA program that can enhance overall strength and power development. However, doing these Chinese strength programs as one's sole means of strength training is VASTLY more inefficient IMO than weight lifting.

Properly done, heavy lifting can stress the muscles to the max within minutes of training, allowing maximum benefits to be gained in minimum amounts of time. Chinese isometric workouts like stone warrior and the iron buddha strength set seem to work in the exact opposite way: they require a maximum output over an extended period to produce results. It's simply less efficient strength training because the body adapts to the training but you're never really able to increase the work load. So at some point, stone warrior, etc. becomes an endurance program, not a strength program.

Weightlifting doesn't seem to have this problem because you can always increase the amount of weight you lift in order to challenge yourself (or the number of reps). With iron buddha, etc. you don't have that option. All you can do is increase the number of reps. It's simply less efficient IMO.

Dave C.

IronFist
04-17-2005, 09:53 PM
Now that I'm better versed in the science of physiology and exercise science I understand the limitations of dynamic tension exercises. And even if it was superior to weight training, no one has the time to spend 90 minutes a day on Stone Warrior. You know what I mean. No saying "well, if you were committed enough you would." The fact that better results can be gained in much less time from a weight program is fine with me, anyway.

Dynamic tension can have it's place in a comprehensive training routine, but it's not the end all be all of training. If it were terribly useful, some Olympic level or professional athletes would use it for something.

The only real benefit I can see from something like Stone Warrior would be increasing one's ability to hold muscular contractions for long periods of time. This is a basic example of SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands). In other words, your body gets better at what you make it do and worse at what you don't make it do. But how often in life do you need to hold muscular tension for long periods of time? Certaintly not in fighting. Of course, bodybuilders have a huge need for this (posing on stage during shows), and they practice posing for long periods of time in order to do so.

Sure, it "increases power through the motions of fighting movements," but you can get the same increase in neurological efficiency through doing the same movements fast and without tension, and the dynamic tension isn't really going to transfer over when you are doing the aforementioned movement in a combat situation.

And the there's the "body hardening" aspect that they talk about. I dunno about that one. Maybe, maybe not. But carrying around residual tension probably isn't the most healthy thing in the world, if that's where the "body hardening" comes from.

Royal Dragon
04-17-2005, 10:48 PM
Ok, I have done both. I found that the dynamic tension can progressively be increased by just squeezing harder as you do the movement. It seems to help build the resistance to impact more than anything.

Now, doing those types of exercises AFTER weights has some good effects too, in the nature of speeding the development over weights alone.

pruningmantis
04-18-2005, 01:55 PM
hello everybody,

i'm new to this forum and was just browsing when i saw somthing about Green Dragon studios out of Stowe Ohio. i have several of there tapes:forms as well as fundementals and strength exercises. in my opinion they excell in the fundementals as well as the strength training and i feel they don't really lack in the form department so much as i would like more move by move instruction and less of the watch and follow. the applications portions of the forms tapes are outstanding,but we all know the street and the dojo are two diffrent places when it comes to appliing what we know.

Royal Dragon
04-18-2005, 02:29 PM
hello everybody,

i'm new to this forum and was just browsing when i saw somthing about Green Dragon studios out of Stowe Ohio. i have several of there tapes:forms as well as fundementals and strength exercises.

in my opinion they excell in the fundementals

Reply]
I beg to differ. If thier fundementals are so good, how come their backs are arched, butts are stuck out, shoulders are pulled back and not rounded, and their chests are puffed out, instead of sunken?? Everything I see on the tapes I have is 180 degrees WRONG from good, proper fundemntals of Chinese martial arts. If you meant they excell at being backwards, and wrong, then I agree.



>as well as the strength training

Reply]
Yes, they do seem to have strength training down pat. Even the most critical has to give credit, where credit is due.

>and i feel they don't really lack in the form department

Reply]
I don't know about the rest, but thier Tai Tzu set is a HORRIBLE representation of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. There are no fundementals, or even the basic ball park flavor of the style.

>>so much as i would like more move by move instruction and less of the watch and follow.

Reply]
Personally I like the format the videos are presented. I think the multi-angles and the way they break it down is done very well.

>>the applications portions of the forms tapes are outstanding,but we all know the street and the dojo are two diffrent places when it comes to appliing what we know.

Reply]
Actually, I found the applications to be highly unplausible, and in several cases down right silly. But that was just one tape, maybe the rest are better.

pruningmantis
04-18-2005, 02:43 PM
as i said in my earlier post i'm new to this forum and have joined not to confront people but to learn from them so thank you for you opinion royal dragon i will keep it in mind when i watch my green dragon tapes in the future.

lotus storm
04-18-2005, 02:46 PM
Actually, I found the applications to be highly unplausible, and in several cases down right silly

Specifically?

Royal Dragon
04-18-2005, 02:49 PM
No intent to be confrontational, just to discuss and critique.

When you watch the spine, it is allways arched back in all of thier movement. They pull the shoulders back, and stick the chest and butt out.

Chinese martial fundementals use a stright spine, round the shoulders, the chest is sunk, and the tail bone tucked under, that's all I was trying to point out.

It was a rebuttal to your comment that thier fundementals are good, when they clearly are not. I meant to make that point, and site reasons as to why I said it.

lotus storm
04-18-2005, 02:59 PM
It was a rebuttal to your comment
Uhh--my question or pruningmantis's comment?

thnx---lotus storm.

Royal Dragon
04-18-2005, 03:18 PM
I was replying to pruning mantis.

As for the practicality of the selfdefense, most of what I saw would have them eating elbows, or good right hooks. For example, one on the Tai tzu tape had the attracker come in with a very predictable straight punch, the defender blocked it, and almost walked right into what would have been the second punch comming from any common arm flailing fool.

Vertually all the attacks shown were followed by the attacker just standing there and getting beat by the defender. There was no attempt to gain position, and make it so the attacker cannot escape or retaliate against the defender's response.

From an inexperiance eye, I guess it looks like the attaker attacks, and gets beat down, but to my eye, it looks like the defences are so easy to circumvent that they would not be practical, or advisable against anyone not play acting along with you.

Most real selfdefence I have seen will work both at the slow demo speed, and full speed against a resisting opponent. Even going slow, you can see why thye work. You really can't see blatent mistakes, and errors that will get you hit if the opponent resisted in the least little bit. In the apps from the green dragon tape however, vertually all the defenses put the player in imedeate danger if the attacker was determined, and looking for openeings to counter.

You are not supposed to place yourself in a danger zone. You are supposed to position yourself so that your opponent can't retaliate well, even if he wants too. Like thier fundemental body structure, the apps from the green dragon tai tzu tape are also 180 backwards.

pruningmantis
04-18-2005, 05:08 PM
royal dragon,

have you ever viewed the green dragon tape called the fundementals of empty hand fighting? even though the information on it was nothing new to me by the time i saw it i thought it gave the most precise explanation of some very basic concepts like staying to the outside of an opponent and penitration of attack that i have ever seen on video. i will say that having experince in both canemasters and green dragon traveler's cane the canemasters stuff is my pick of the two.

Royal Dragon
04-18-2005, 05:17 PM
No, I only have the Tai Tzu ones, and my critques should be seen as being based only on that. Although, if they don't have it for those tapes, why would they anywhere else?

chessman71
04-18-2005, 05:48 PM
I beg to differ. If thier fundementals are so good, how come their backs are arched, butts are stuck out, shoulders are pulled back and not rounded, and their chests are puffed out, instead of sunken?? Everything I see on the tapes I have is 180 degrees WRONG from good, proper fundemntals of Chinese martial arts.

...

Actually, I found the applications to be highly unplausible, and in several cases down right silly. But that was just one tape, maybe the rest are better.

Not every CMA uses the body principles you've listed here so if some of the Green Dragon forms don't show the requirements that you've listed, then it's no big deal. For instance, the shoulders are not commonly rounded nor the chest sunken in southern styles that I've trained. Granted that doesn't mean the chest should be puffed out like the members of the Green Dragon demo team do, but then that's usually when they are just standing there, not when they are demoing the forms.

Regarding applications, most of them are defenses against punches or kicks, which I found to be pretty plausable.

As you say, your opinion is formed by watching one tape, which is a little unfair to Green Dragon considering they have like 200 tapes on the market. I had about 20-25 at one time and they were a wide cross section of forms and strength programs from all the different levels. Some tapes had great material and performers while some didn't.

Dave C.

chessman71
04-18-2005, 06:02 PM
This is just off the top of my head.
The good:
small fire dragon - excellent form and done very well. The best dragon form I've ever seen.
White dragon advanced form -- just a little harder and longer than small fire dragon but still very good.
white lotus continuous plams -- pretty much as good as they always claimed it to be but students need beginning and intermediate WL forms to make it work.
iron buddha strength set -- good with the caveats I gave about using this type of program
iron crutch -- excellent form of the Chinese tonfa
preying mantis bung bu -- famous form done well
small crane fist form -- a good intro to crane movement.
leopard form -- good form also done well, but the slapping the elbow to increase speed was weird and I've never seen any other animal guys do that.

the bad:
the white eyebrow material -- the performer didn't impress me and I found the material disappointing. This might be one that suffered from incorrect body mechanics.
the five animal exercises -- liked some of them but the tape should have had explanations of what the exercises did. More explanation was necessary IMO.
taiji and bagua -- way, way too much residual tension. As I said before, GD doesn't specialize in internal so buyer beware!

BTW, I also saw their shuai jiao tapes, which are not listed in the catalog. They were a solid presentation of SJ basics if you can find them.

Dave C.

IronFist
04-18-2005, 06:27 PM
Their "fundamentals of empty hand fighting" tape is pretty good.

Again I like it because he stresses the importance of strength.

The principles and theory discussed on it are all very good assuming that real fighting involves two people standing sideways to each other in "karate" or "kung fu" stances.

I suppose the material could be extrapolated and applied to any fighting scenario (ie, facing head-on like boxers), but the examples given in the tape are all with sideways stances.

They also kind of assume that your opponent will throw a punch and leave it out there. I hate to say Green Dragon falls into this cliche, too, but if I remember correctly (the examples I'm thinking of), they do. One of the examples shows Sifu Allen's "opponent" throwing a punch and Sifu Allen knocks it away really hard showing how you can knock your opponent off balance and make him cross his own centerline thus exposing himself, etc. Good points, good theory. However, it probably wouldn't work against a trained attacker (read: boxer).

People have said this tape has more info than you would learn in a year at a "normal" school. I may agree. There is some good stuff on there from a TMA perspective. I'd rather spend one day at a MMA gym, tho.

IronFist
04-20-2005, 05:30 PM
Wow, this thread died.

chessman71
04-20-2005, 11:11 PM
Well, I have some further thoughts I'd like to add.

More reasons not to overuse tension forms:

1. headaches -- when I did the iron buddha strength form for a year, I got the most intense migrains. What I thought caused them was the prolonged, maximum tension that I tried to squeeze out of my muscles. For one thing, it constricted my breathing patterns but it also seemed to GREATLY increase the blood pressure in my head. Needless to say, that was very uncomfortable and often resulted in splitting headaches. I wonder if long-term practice might contribute to high blood pressure.

2. lack of legwork -- the GD stregth forms all seemed to emphasize upper body development to the detriment of the lower body. I know stances were meant to make up for that, but stancework supplemented with lower body strength training works best. Stance work is static, not dynamic so it is very limited. Adding deadlifts and squats, or at least hindu squats and lunges, will greatly increase your leg strength.

3. interferes with proper technique -- several of the moves from each GD strength form seem to come right from fighting techniques found in the fighting forms. Doing these moves WITH extreme tension runs counter IMO to doing the techniques correctly. Basically, you are spending time inducing tension into techniques that should be done without that tension. That's a very bad idea and in my case, led to me doing some techniques incorrectly.
I now try to keep my strength training and martial arts training separate so that they don't contaminate each other. If I mix the two, it's to build a special skill or power but I'm always very careful when doing so.

4. residual tension -- I hate to keep harping on this but IMO GD strength forms build tension that doesn't go away easily, as someone who has watched their videos can easily tell. Those people look as stiff as boards!!
I agree that strength and power are needed to make the material work but outside of bodybuilders (who also spend a lot of time tensing up), I've never seen that amout of tension in someone who lifts weights or does bodyweight exercises. Being stiff like that runs completely contrary to CMA principles (which I now realize is what Royal Dragon meant) and is to be avoided even in southern styles like hung gar, let alone taiji.

Taking these complaints into account along with the ones from my previous posts, I now consider Chinese strength sets to be supplemental training at best.

Properly done weightlifting and bodyweight exercises IMO are VASTLY superior because they have 95% of the benefits of tension forms, loads of benefits that tension forms don't have, and none of the drawbacks.

Dave C.

Royal Dragon
04-21-2005, 02:39 AM
I often wondered if the tension sets found in some martial systems were more a result of a LACK of avaliability of the traditional stone locks,than anything else.

I have footage of a Tai Tzu guy doing our San Zhen set with the locks, instead of emptyhand and lots of tension, and it just seems to me that that is how the set was originally designed to be practiced.

Also, as for the head aches, I see how that is possible. We use a specal breathing sound when we do ours that prevents that. Also, we donot tense the head area, that stays relatively relaxed. Only the arms, and torso tense.

As for the residual trension, yeah I noticed that too. THAT is why I rarely practice that set. I lose my softness if I do it too much more than once a week, or once every other week. I at best only run through the set 3 times, and then move on to moving forms like 4 doors, or Cutting Slice. That seems to help too.

pruningmantis
04-22-2005, 04:21 PM
have any of you guys seen the green dragon version of the eight drunken immortals form? i recently purchased it for my godson who wants to start learning it and i just wanted to share some opinions.

chessman71
04-22-2005, 04:46 PM
Interestingly enough, I have seen their version of the eight drunken immortals and I thought it was pretty good. What surprised me was that the performer looked strong like most GD people but he wasn't stiff. If I'm not mistaken, it was the same performer that did their monkey forms. So my guess is that he specializes in doing the more "flexible" type material that they have.

The drunken form itself was quite good, it has all the standard moves you would expect and, as always, was broken down in ways that actually allowed you to learn the form. That was what made GD special IMO, you could actually learn the form from the videos.

Hope you enjoy the tape.

Dave C.

Ho Chun
04-22-2005, 05:06 PM
[QUOTE=chessman71]. What surprised me was that the performer looked strong like most GD people but he wasn't stiff.


Isn't this how all Kung Fu people are suppose to be??

chessman71
04-22-2005, 05:12 PM
[QUOTE=chessman71]. What surprised me was that the performer looked strong like most GD people but he wasn't stiff.


Isn't this how all Kung Fu people are suppose to be??
Maybe you should try bothering to read the thread before you make inane comments. If you do, you'll understand what I meant.

Dave C.

Ho Chun
04-22-2005, 05:24 PM
I think I understand what the thread is about. You seem to be surprised that the man was strong and wasn't stiff. So you assumed that he must "specialize" in the more flexible material that GD offers.

Am I correct?

chessman71
04-22-2005, 06:53 PM
I think I understand what the thread is about. You seem to be surprised that the man was strong and wasn't stiff. So you assumed that he must "specialize" in the more flexible material that GD offers.

Am I correct?
That's a paraphrase of what I said above but your previous statement was about kung fu people in general and had nothing to do with GD. So just what is your point?

Dave C.

Ho Chun
04-22-2005, 07:06 PM
The point is simply this; all kung fu people should be strong and soft. Period.
You said that you thought that this GD guy had to be specializing in some sort of flexible stuff, when the point is that all kung fu people do, don't we?

No big deal, I was surprised by your observations,(of the GD dude) so I made a comment about it.

Isn't this what the forum is for?

WinterPalm
04-22-2005, 08:41 PM
The Black Tiger system that I study includes in it a variety of dynamic tension forms and the opening to every form has a dynamic tension component. This is similar to the opening for a hung gar form. I have never found this to make me overly tense, however, I would suggest that maybe you guys are learning from tapes and not from a Sifu? :) That could make all the difference in the world! I go a couple months without performing a form in front of my Sifu and then when I do, especially the tension set that I know, I end up having a lot to work on and correct.
My Sifu has trained this art and these forms for several decades and is very relaxed, and very calm. His movements are free of the tension you guys have spoken of and when he hits, it is solid.
I personally believe that these forms and exercises are really great but you need a teacher that can show you how to do them correctly. I would not learn from a tape something like this.

Perhaps, as to the predicament of tension after performing the set, which I usually feel really focused and relaxed, you are not doing it right? I know that in the form I do it involves concentrated contractions and then brief periods of relaxation followed by more contractions all coordinated with breathing. THis might be what you are missing in your videos?

chessman71
04-22-2005, 10:15 PM
The point is simply this; all kung fu people should be strong and soft. Period.
You said that you thought that this GD guy had to be specializing in some sort of flexible stuff, when the point is that all kung fu people do, don't we?

No big deal, I was surprised by your observations,(of the GD dude) so I made a comment about it.

Isn't this what the forum is for?
And my point is that if you had bothered to read the thread, as it is now clear to me that you haven't, you would have seen my posts and Royal Dragon's in which we said that the GD people DO NOT appear to be both strong and soft at the same time. They appear to be strong but have amazing amounts of residual tension i.e. not soft at all, even in their taiji. Go back and read the thread.

Dave C.

chessman71
04-22-2005, 10:25 PM
The Black Tiger system that I study includes in it a variety of dynamic tension forms and the opening to every form has a dynamic tension component. This is similar to the opening for a hung gar form. I have never found this to make me overly tense, however, I would suggest that maybe you guys are learning from tapes and not from a Sifu? :) That could make all the difference in the world! I go a couple months without performing a form in front of my Sifu and then when I do, especially the tension set that I know, I end up having a lot to work on and correct.
My Sifu has trained this art and these forms for several decades and is very relaxed, and very calm. His movements are free of the tension you guys have spoken of and when he hits, it is solid.
I personally believe that these forms and exercises are really great but you need a teacher that can show you how to do them correctly. I would not learn from a tape something like this.

Perhaps, as to the predicament of tension after performing the set, which I usually feel really focused and relaxed, you are not doing it right? I know that in the form I do it involves concentrated contractions and then brief periods of relaxation followed by more contractions all coordinated with breathing. THis might be what you are missing in your videos?
You point about learning stuff like this from videos is well taken. But have you ever seen the strength tapes from Green Dragon? That's what this thread is really about.

If you do, you'll see that those guys are really tense looking, and that's just when they are standing normally. Plus, they don't learn from videos, they are from the home studio that produces the videos (obviously since they are in the videos themselves). If they exhibit that much tension with personal instruction then I'm not sure if the instruction is the problem or the material itself, whether it's from video or not..

If your teacher can make it work without that tension, then that's good.

Dave C.

WinterPalm
04-23-2005, 11:32 AM
I would say that you should not learn from these guys off a tape or, if they are unhealthy in regards to residual tension, one should not learn off them or, at the least, consult the head teacher in as polite a manner as possible and figure out was is going on. Perhaps the fellows teaching the videos are also bodybuilders?

David Jamieson
04-23-2005, 11:47 AM
WP-

Your sifu gave me a couple of the GD tapes on Bagua. :D

All in all they are pretty good, the format and instruction is fine. It ain't the material and it is more likely not the best learning format for some people.

Personally, I have a hard time learning from videos overall. But I do find there are some that are really decent material wise.

China's Hidden treasures series, the GD tapes, wing lams stuff = all good material provided one follows the instruction to the letter.

chessman71
04-23-2005, 05:45 PM
Perhaps the fellows teaching the videos are also bodybuilders?
No, in fact they aren't. On one of the tapes I owned, they talked about how Margie Smith and two of the other female demonstrators had done a bench press test just to see what they were capable of as compared to weightlifters. I don't remember the exact poundages, but they were impressive for people that don't lift. And that was the whole point. GD people do not lift weights, they do this Chinese strength training through tension forms.

I got the impression that they are actively discouraged from lifting in order to not pollute the claims of the results that their type of training can bring.

So we can't chalk the residual tension up to bodybuilding. It has to be something else.

Dave C.

IronFist
04-23-2005, 06:36 PM
No, in fact they aren't. On one of the tapes I owned, they talked about how Margie Smith and two of the other female demonstrators had done a bench press test just to see what they were capable of as compared to weightlifters. I don't remember the exact poundages, but they were impressive for people that don't lift.

That's strange, given that long, dynamic tension sets will not build maximal (1 rep max) strength. Maybe it was a bench press test for reps with a lower weight or something.

Royal Dragon
04-23-2005, 07:04 PM
Question, since weight lifting is basically a muscular contraction, and building strenth is basically takeing that contraction to it's max by progressively increasing resistance, why wouldn't dynamic tension do the same?

I mean, your basically just useing an antagonistic muscle to load the primary muscle, instead of a dead weight, right? Either way, you are still loading the primary muscle being worked wiht an ever progressive resistance, right? How does IT know the difference between a weight, and resistance from another muscle?

Resistance is resistance right? Progressive resistance, is...progressive resistance,right?

IronFist
04-23-2005, 07:19 PM
Question, since weight lifting is basically a muscular contraction, and building strenth is basically takeing that contraction to it's max by progressively increasing resistance, why wouldn't dynamic tension do the same?

Good question. I can tell you're thinking.

Gains in muscular strength come from neurological adaptation to a stimulus. Since an increase in muscle mass is not required to increase maximal strength (as evidenced by 120lb powerlifters), the increase in strength must be due to something else. That "something else" is your body basically becoming more efficient at using your muscles, or your muscles learning to contract "harder." The body accomplishes this by increasing the load (pounds) over time. As powerlifters and strength athletes know, you can't increase your maximal strength past a certain point just by increasing reps; you must increase the actual amount of resistance.


I mean, your basically just useing an antagonistic muscle to load the primary muscle, instead of a dead weight, right? Either way, you are still loading the primary muscle being worked wiht an ever progressive resistance, right? How does IT know the difference between a weight, and resistance from another muscle?

The difference is that with dynamic tension, you're never increasing the load under which the muscle must contract. Think of if you were to bench press and you could only use 150lbs and never increase the weight. At first it might be hard. You could maybe do 2 reps. Over time you'd get 5, 6, etc. Maybe after a while you could bench 150lbs for 20 reps. Maybe even 30 reps. But you won't have increased your raw strength any. Once you got past 5 or 10 reps (or a certain time under tension, but lets stick with reps for now) with that weight your raw strength didn't increase anymore.

The same is true with dynamic tension. Say you're doing a strength set like Stone Warrior or something. You start at whatever they want you to start at, and over time build up to 36 reps of each of the 21 exercises and it takes you 90 minutes, as they say it will. You've basically just increased your muscles' endurance at performing those motions. Since over the months it took you to build up to the 90 minutes you never actually increased the amount of resistance, you never really got any stronger.


Resistance is resistance right? Progressive resistance, is...progressive resistance,right?

You have to think about what is progressive: is it increasing weight, or is it increasing reps/endurance/time under tension? To use another example, when a long distance runner increases his max running distance from 5 miles to 10 miles he didn't increase his sprinting speed at all.

Make sense? Let me know if I should explain something further.

Royal Dragon
04-23-2005, 07:42 PM
The difference is that with dynamic tension, you're never increasing the load under which the muscle must contract.

Reply]
Why can't you just squeez hard enough to reach failure in a certian number of reps,and just keep increasing the level of tension, so that no matter how much you develop, you still fail at the same number of reps? That's what I allways did with San Zhen.

By doing that, the level of tension/resistance from antagonists is ever increasing as your strength grows. It's the same progression as weights now, only the resistance is comming from another source, ie an antagonistic muscle group instead of a bar bell.

Resistance is resistance, right?

Ho Chun
04-24-2005, 04:00 AM
[I] Resistance is resistance, right?

I couldn't agree more.

And as your strength grows, so does the amount of resistance.

David Jamieson
04-24-2005, 07:34 AM
THe diffrences are in what is functional strength vs isolated muscular strength.

body builders are strong, but do not have the same functional strength as say, iron workers.

nowadays, people who are training in mma and ma in general look for those types of resistance training exercises and devices that devlelop functional strength.
The kind of strength that translates directly to the task they are focusing on.
There are a lot of old traditional Kungfu ways that do this, but for the most part these have all but dissappeared from training regimens in favour of set training.

anywho, just saying.

Ho Chun
04-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Very well said, David.

My own personal opinion is: condition for what I do, what I am.
And thats a martial artist.
Good post David

www.noweightsworkout.com

WinterPalm
04-24-2005, 02:00 PM
DJ,
Sifu and I have spoken on this very topic and he says he has not given you any tapes of GD, nor has he had any. Some students of his gave him some tapes to share with members of the kwoon who were interested in various types of styles, lineages, etc. There was possibly a tape with Bagua from a San Francisco practioner but definately nothing from GD.
You must have gotten that source from someone else.

David Jamieson
04-24-2005, 04:16 PM
ok then, I guess i'm just insane then. :rolleyes:

David Jamieson
04-25-2005, 07:03 AM
The set training which incluse single move sole drills and double men drills are only 50% of the training. The other 50% training is the equipment training that people don't do much in todays environment. Without equipment training, your moves can only work against average opponents but not against strong opponents.

True dat. Although, I don't know about the percentages, set training is not the only part of training in solid kungfu styles.

wp- fwiw, the tapes i got from your sifu used to belong to chaz, but they all have the same tapes or exchanged them with one another in his "inner circle". The tapes he gave me were inclusive of green dragon bagua tapes and have sifu Allen on them giveing the instruction himself. They do not have some guy from san fran, these are GD tapes. I have a few others from the collection as well. Don't really use em but they got some useful stuff on em to be sure.

They are not from "some other source" so please don't imply that I am delusional. lol But believe what you like.

Gold Horse Dragon
04-25-2005, 10:02 AM
True dat. Although, I don't know about the percentages, set training is not the only part of training in solid kungfu styles.

wp- fwiw, the tapes i got from your sifu used to belong to chaz, but they all have the same tapes or exchanged them with one another in his "inner circle". The tapes he gave me were inclusive of green dragon bagua tapes and have sifu Allen on them giveing the instruction himself. They do not have some guy from san fran, these are GD tapes. I have a few others from the collection as well. Don't really use em but they got some useful stuff on em to be sure.

They are not from "some other source" so please don't imply that I am delusional. lol But believe what you like.

Well, I have not posted here for over 14 months and for good reason with the multitude of...well, lets just leave it at that...but I now find myself having to post again because of inaccuracies.

David...the tapes I gave you were not from Chaz but were donated to the kwoon by Bob who could no longer practice kung fu due to a heart condition...I am sure you remember him (Bob and Neil collected the tapes on the whole and I think they made some copies for Chaz)...the so called 'inner circle' you refer to were three guys who knew each other from their place of employment and being my students. But there was no 'inner circle' as in the kwoon/kung fu sense.

I know for a fact there were NO green dragon tapes because Bob showed them all to me so I could make sure they would be decent enough for students to view other styles and lineages...so the GD tapes you have were received from someone else or you bought them yourself and you have confused the matter.

At the time, I asked you if you would like to have the tapes because I thought you would enjoy them and because you had done a number of things for the kwoon and myself and being close at the time I thought you would genuinely like to have them. You said you would very much like to and so I gave them to you in appreciation.
There were some tapes on northern shaolin from WTN productions, some from Living treasures of china, some on Tai chi (do not know where from) and others..I think perhaps there was one on bagua from a Sifu Jerry Alan Johnson...and come tho thnk of it...this must be where your confusion lies...in the similarity of the names...BUT none were from gd nor were there any tapes with a Sifu Allen from gd in them. If there were I would not have to post this...
I have never seen any of the gd tapes. But, it is usually nice to view other styles and others expression of a style (when it is good) either by video or in person.

Now that I have had to break my fast from this forum by posting...back to fasting.

Sifu W.C.

David Jamieson
04-25-2005, 10:23 AM
sifu wes-

I stand corrected on my sifu allen vs sifu johnson error. But these tapes all begin with "Ching Lung" logo and the sifu presenting says at the beginning states he is representing "Green Dragon association".

So, as we both know, Green Dragon is seemingly a well used name for Kungfu associations. I suppose this is yet another Green Dragon school then and therein lies the confusion.

Otherwise, I wish that all is well with you.
regards
David

SiuHung
04-25-2005, 10:47 AM
sifu wes-

I stand corrected on my sifu allen vs sifu johnson error. But these tapes all begin with "Ching Lung" logo and the sifu presenting says at the beginning states he is representing "Green Dragon association".

So, as we both know, Green Dragon is seemingly a well used name for Kungfu associations. I suppose this is yet another Green Dragon school then and therein lies the confusion.

Otherwise, I wish that all is well with you.
regards
David

Well thank goodness we cleared that issue up! I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say it's a tremendous relief that the whole world knows where those tapes came from! :rolleyes:

David Jamieson
04-25-2005, 01:30 PM
wad :D

10 character limit is frustrating

IronFist
10-27-2005, 10:55 PM
Anyone know anything about this school?

I found this on their website (http://www.greendragonsociety.com/).


A newly completed three year Instructor Training Program (ITP) includes acupuncture, acupressure, traditional Chinese herbology. Also Chinese combat weapon training, guest lecturers and various presentations of other Asian Fighting Arts. Successful completion of the ITP is by participating in our secret (closed door) Blood Matches which are exclusive to Chi Tao Chuan Gung-Fu for the Instructor Certificate of Rank to be awarded.

My friend says he knows someone who says they used to train there and it was all hardcore and they had kumites and stuff.

Is this the group that got into it with Count Dante or some other organization or something and some students got killed?

Their website talks about killing people and stuff.

So, are they legit? Can they fight? Are they a cult? All the normal questions.

MonkeySlap Too
10-28-2005, 05:56 AM
Yes they are real.

Yes they are the school that Count Dante foolishly stormed... and got his best friend killed and himself tossed in jail for it. (Where he died)

Thier system is probably a form of Bando or a Bando/CMA hybrid. It is not the most sophisticated system, but yeah, they can fight.

Back in the day these guys played real hard. I don't know any of the current ones or what they are up to.

They certainly acted like a cult. I wento check them out once, and they tried all kinds of cheesy loyalty/mind tricks. They spy on you too. Funny stuff.

Jarhead101
10-28-2005, 07:09 AM
[QUOTE=MonkeySlap Too]Yes they are real.

and got his best friend killed and himself tossed in jail for it. (Where he died)
QUOTE]

As a Count Dante aficionado, he did not die in jail. He died in his apartment of bleeding ulcers. He was never charged for that crime.

MST you may be thinking of Mitose of Kempo fame.

MonkeySlap Too
10-28-2005, 07:39 AM
I think I was just misinformed on that point.

He still got his buddy killed tho...

IronFist
10-28-2005, 07:53 AM
How do they spy on you? wtf?

Judge Pen
10-28-2005, 08:13 AM
Crazy chinese chi gung invisibility technique?

BM2
10-28-2005, 09:23 AM
Found this on a Google search....Gee I feel like MK now :eek:

Dante was charged with attempted arson when he and an accomplice (while under the influence of alcohol) were arrested while taping dynamite caps to a rival Chicago dojo. Dante explained this as the result of a disagreement with the dojo's owner over payment for a tournament that Dante had arranged there. The various enmities culminated in the Dojo War incident of 1970 where Dante and some of his students went to a rival dojo of the Green Cobra Hall. According to press release, upon entering the school, they claimed to be police officers and attacked the rival dojo's students. The brief battle resulted in the death of one of Dante's friends and fellow sensei, Jim Koncevic. As a result of this incident, Dante became much more subdued in his activities.

Count Dante died in his sleep of internal hemorrhaging caused by a bleeding ulcer on May 25, 1975.

RICH
11-28-2005, 12:17 PM
Can anyone help me in obtaining the address for The Green Dragon Studios so that I may be able to purchase a video I have heard so much about (Stone Warrior Set) and others that have caught my interest. If anyone can help me it will be gratly appreciated. :D

ThanX,
RICH

Dale Dugas
11-28-2005, 03:52 PM
Sifu John R. Allen
PO Box 1601
Stow, Ohio
44224

IronFist
11-28-2005, 04:00 PM
Can anyone help me in obtaining the address for The Green Dragon Studios so that I may be able to purchase a video I have heard so much about (Stone Warrior Set) and others that have caught my interest. If anyone can help me it will be gratly appreciated. :D

ThanX,
RICH

I've made a bunch of posts about Stone Warrior. Do a search for "Stone Warrior" and posts by IronFist to find them, and then feel free to post any further questions you have in this thread and I'll answer them.

IMO now, Stone Warrior is interesting, and it takes a long time to do it, but it's really nothing special and you could get better results in less time with weights in a gym. I'd rather spend the $100 that it costs on a gym membership. The bottom line is that, for a few fundamental physiological reasons, Stone Warrior is really not going to give you as much size and strength as it promises. It also INSANELY neglects the legs.

However, I agree with Sifu Allen in that strength training is generally neglected in TCMA schools, and that it is a very important aspect of training that cannot be ignored.

Wong Fei Hong
11-29-2005, 02:57 AM
hi, someone is selling stone warrior demos of his teacher on ebay for around 20$ if you would like pm me if i can look up his email if i still have it.

Dark Knight
11-29-2005, 09:38 AM
There are now a couple people selling STone Warrior on DVD.

Green dragon has a lot to offer beyond just that video.

As far as how well it works, I did it for about a year, and had pretty good results. But I have much better results from a good lifting program (hook up with someone who knows how to lift properly and set up a program)

But lifting isnt as cool as doing a program tht goes back hundreds of years.

Sifu Allen teaches a large amount of Chinese weapons and different KF styles.

Also check ebay, I picked up a bunch of his tapes off there.

David Jamieson
11-29-2005, 09:42 AM
lifting +intensive cv work+MA training = The way

neglect any of the three and you will feel the void.

Dale Dugas
11-29-2005, 11:55 AM
hi, someone is selling stone warrior demos of his teacher on ebay for around 20$ if you would like pm me if i can look up his email if i still have it.

The dweeb who is selling stone warrior is a little skinny stick named Thomas Keen, who is one of Jim Lacy's lunatic lohans.

Stay clear of this person.

I bought the dvd thinking he was affliated with Green Dragon. He is this skinny man who couldnt fight his way out of wet toilet paper.

BEWARE KEEN AND JIM LACY.

greendragon
11-29-2005, 09:38 PM
no address, post office will not deliver there.

IronFist
11-29-2005, 09:55 PM
Oh sh.it, Lacey is ripping off Green Dragon's stuff now? :rolleyes:

Dale Dugas
11-30-2005, 03:10 AM
no address, post office will not deliver there.

Yeah, they obviously do not have an address......

Think you need a little wakeup call. Address I posted is how you get in touch with them.

Paul T England
11-30-2005, 05:27 AM
Does anyone konw if Green Dragon are or will be doing DVDs?

Failing that anyone copied their stuff to dvd and like to swap some stuff?

Akronviper
11-30-2005, 10:10 AM
Still takes forever for your catalouge to come. I'm almost on my 3rd month now.

IronFist
11-30-2005, 11:40 AM
I got their 1998 catalog (it took a month or two), and then I got their 2002 catalog (it took like 6 months), and they were exactly the same except for the date on the cover. Even the stuff that said "coming soon" in the 1998 catalog still said "coming soon" in the 2002 catalog.

When I ordered the Stone Warrior video it took like a month or two to arrive, too.

xingyi
11-30-2005, 06:54 PM
hey all
second that for swapping pm if interested

fiercest tiger
11-30-2005, 08:56 PM
Dale,

How are you Bro, Hope all is well?!

Just a quick question regarding stone warrior is it a muscle tension set like hung gar or other tension sets, i remember you doing this years ago and what do you think of the chi or enrgy gained or lost when doing it?

Cheers
garry

Royal Dragon
11-30-2005, 09:23 PM
I know this was not directed to me but,

Haveing done dynamic tension sets myself, I'd say neither. I think they are external exercises that invigorate your chi, and surge it through the limbs.

IronFist
11-30-2005, 09:54 PM
It's an external strength set. Sifu Allen says 1 of the 21 movements is internal in nature.

Anyway, internal guys say that muscle tension blocks qi, so I'm not sure how Stone Warrior, which demands constant full body tension, could do much with qi.

Internal guys also say stuff like "lift with your tendons and not your muscles" and other such rubbish, so maybe we can't believe them in the first place :D

fiercest tiger
12-01-2005, 12:43 AM
There is soft and hard chi kung, obviously the tension is the hard chi gung!!

whats hard to understand about that?

Wong Fei Hong
12-01-2005, 04:43 AM
Just my 2 cents , and take my word on this one ;)
There are 2 types of tension, static as in postures and the other in forms, now the key to all of it lies in this.

When you do static tension you tense the muscle. when you tense the muscle, the posture you have stagnates the chi and "locks" it in the muscle, kind of like how if you bench press you pump up, same thing but you do this with chi. This gives you iron body. It locks the chi there so if you get hit it absorbs the damage, if you do internal though the concept of flowing the chi is higher if you like because you allways have your source of chi and getting hit, the body directs the chi there.

If you do a tension form or kata, the tension you hold whilst moving doesnt allow you to tense your muscles, instead what happens is your tendons are activated and it feels like you are tensing your tendons and separating your muscles off your bones, its a weird feeling.
This strengthens your tendons. Now that is if you do a set which is for tendons, the body mechanics of it are such that you move through postures that dont let you actually activate one single muscle group.

The other type of tension form is one that actually has you tensing the muscles all the time,with each movement this will bulk you up, and if done with intent of packing the muscle with chi this will give you a type of iron body. And will pump you up. IF you dont pack the chi it will pump you up like doing body building.

However a lot of times, a form that has movement in it, has pauses and when you arrive at the pause this is what will lock in the chi and give you the iron body, if you do it incorrectly ie without intent or without the pause you will only be working the tendons or like bodybuilding.

Hope this helps

Royal Dragon
12-01-2005, 07:10 PM
You cannot work a tendon, without working the muscles attached to it.

Also, TENDONS doNOT contract, and thearfore cannot lift anything or provide you with strength in any way, shape or form.

Wong Fei Hong
12-02-2005, 12:28 AM
What ive found tbh about strengthening the tendons, is just they hold everything in place better, like your knees if you have weak tendons they rip, i gad an accident with my knee that any normal person would have needed more than one operation to heal from ,yet i just felt a bit numb for a couple of days. (my knee got bent at a right angle the wrong way , i.e to the outsid instead of backwards.) But i cant say that i can lift weights using my tendons that would be far fetched.

About working the muscle and tendons at the same time,or separately its a bit weird to describe, if youve never felt it i cant explain it, its like when you do a bicep curl, you could focus on the bicep and feel the pump, whereas if you straighten out your arm and not do the whole movement contraction, then you dont actually work out the bicep, you can just feel the pull and contraction in the elbow, sure the muscle is activated , but it doesnt get utilised more than a tiny percent and you definately dont get a pump even though you are woriking out the same weight.

wukong-zero
12-02-2005, 08:11 AM
I have found that Green Dragon’s Stone Warrior is excellent in producing power that translates well into forms or fighting. In my experience it is one of the best CMA strength programs around for this…..but for bulking up I feel that nothing is quite like weight lifting. Being well over 40 I do not follow the prescribed method of doing Stone Warrior 7 days a week. Nor do I perform the sets consecutively without a break in between, as it spikes my blood pressure. I do the sets somewhat similar to lifting with a short break in between. Again…just in my experience, one day a week doing Stone Warrior, one day weight training, a couple of days with stances(I prefer Master Kao’s), forms, and/or internal material works pretty well for me. When I was younger I would do more days of strength training (Stone Warrior and weights), but you do need days of rest to rebuild muscle tissue.

IronFist
12-02-2005, 10:00 AM
What ive found tbh about strengthening the tendons, is just they hold everything in place better, like your knees if you have weak tendons they rip, i gad an accident with my knee that any normal person would have needed more than one operation to heal from ,yet i just felt a bit numb for a couple of days. (my knee got bent at a right angle the wrong way , i.e to the outsid instead of backwards.) But i cant say that i can lift weights using my tendons that would be far fetched.

About working the muscle and tendons at the same time,or separately its a bit weird to describe, if youve never felt it i cant explain it, its like when you do a bicep curl, you could focus on the bicep and feel the pump, whereas if you straighten out your arm and not do the whole movement contraction, then you dont actually work out the bicep, you can just feel the pull and contraction in the elbow, sure the muscle is activated , but it doesnt get utilised more than a tiny percent and you definately dont get a pump even though you are woriking out the same weight.

Tendons will get stronger over time as you work your muscles, but internal MAists (and ignorant external MAists) sometimes talk about "lift with your tendons" or "punch with your tendons and not your muscles," which is funny, because you cannot contract a tendon and therefore it cannot be responsible for movement. If you are moving, regardless of if you are lifting a weight, throwing a punch, or doing qigong, it is because your muscles are contracting. The only way you can be moving and not have it be due to your muscles contracting is if you are falling due to gravity :)

In the biceps scenario you described, the biceps would possibly be contracting statically depending on the angle of your arm relative to gravity, but assuming you are holding onto the weight it may still be contracting to assist the forearm muscles as well. Sometimes neighboring muscles will contract to help out other muscles, which is getting a bit off topic here, but think about if you try to squeeze something in your hand has hard as you possibly can, not only would your forearm muscles be contracting, but your upper arm, shoulder, chest, and maybe even abs would be contracting as well because you can generate more overall tension that way. Anyway tendons connect muscle to bone, and if your arm is just hanging there your tendons aren't doing much. And who said a pump was indicative of a muscle being worked out? :D

Anyway, you can't choose "ok, i'll work out my muscles but not my tendons" or "just my tendons this time" or "I'll work them both, now!"

Akronviper
12-02-2005, 10:14 AM
Oh no!! not the muscle and tendon topic again :D

Vince
06-29-2006, 01:05 PM
Does someone here know a email address of Green Dragon Studios? I would be very thankful for a positive reply.

thanks ahead

vince