Tcma dead poll

[MightyB]

Inspired by the Tru-2-Form thread.

Is TCMA Dead? Has Tru-2-Form exposed the final nail in the Kung Fu fantasy coffin? Is San Da the only future for Chinese Martial Arts?

Reading MMA Evolution in China, it seems that the Chinese youth are embracing MMA in the form of hybrids like Sanda and BJJ in the same schools where they used to flock to TKD. Plus, this tru-2-form discussion (read it) really puts the spotlight on what TCMA considers fighting and it t'ain't that good.

Is there a future for TCMA styles or is TCMA Sanda the same thing?

[lkfmdc]

Is TCMA Dead?



Considering virtually no one seems to understand what it actually is and how it works, YES




Has Tru-2-Form exposed the final nail in the Kung Fu fantasy coffin?



TCMA people don't want to hear this, but if you think people dis-respected you and what you do before, WAIT until the world at large gets a look at tru-2-form





Is San Da the only future for Chinese Martial Arts?



Don't be like "YUM CHA" and engage in straw men tactics. There is Kuoshu Lei Tai, there is MMA. There is Shuai Jiao. There is push hands (though you need to do the Asian version, not the US ***** version). Heck you could even do chi sau it is better than tru-2-form




Is there a future for TCMA styles



People who want to do forms will more and more go into contemporary wushu AND even places that say they are Tcma are effected by contemporary

People who want to fight are no longer going anywhere near kung fu

[MightyB]

Considering virtually no one seems to understand what it actually is and how it works, YES

People who want to do forms will more and more go into contemporary wushu AND even places that say they are Tcma are effected by contemporary

People who want to fight are no longer going anywhere near kung fu

So sad - but true.

Honestly - I don't think there is any misunderstanding with TCMA. I know what you're getting at - but when it gets right down to it, I think TCMA made a choice and is defining itself. What you see is what you get. Where it goes from here is anyone's guess.

I'm a clinging relic LARPer though because I still believe in the diu sau and some of the old school stuff because it's scary as heck to face when the right person is using it (like my sifu) and it's a skill I'd like to have.

[Snipsky]

TCMA may be dead on this forum, but like it or not, TCMA is still alive and still much larger than MMA in regards to numbers of practitioners. sorry, get over it. LOL

[Kansuke]

TCMA may be dead on this forum, but like it or not, TCMA is still alive and still much larger than MMA in regards to numbers of practitioners. sorry, get over it. LOL


I think you misunderstood the question.

[lkfmdc]

TCMA may be dead on this forum, but like it or not, TCMA is still alive and still much larger than MMA in regards to numbers of practitioners. sorry, get over it. LOL

There are thousands of old ladies doing Taiji in the park but that doesn't make it the best fighting art does it?

Great at missing the point, aren't you? :rolleyes:

[ginosifu]

There are thousands of old ladies doing Taiji in the park but that doesn't make it the best fighting art does it?

Great at missing the point, aren't you? :rolleyes:

I kinda agree with Sifu Ross here. Just because there are a lot of Wu Shu schools popping up here and there does not necessarily mean it's good for kung fu.

ginosifu

[Snipsky]

There are thousands of old ladies doing Taiji in the park but that doesn't make it the best fighting art does it?

Great at missing the point, aren't you?

There's what? 5 people on this forum? LOL. and this forum will decide if TCMA is dead or not? come on man. NOT. There's more to martial arts than just fighting. but to each his own.


I think you misunderstood the question.

what was the very first question this thread asked? I said NO. its not dead. if it was dead there wouldn't be any TCMA around these days. BUT, people are still flocking to them. like it or not. it is what it is.

[MightyB]

There's what? 5 people on this forum? LOL. and this forum will decide if TCMA is dead or not? come on man. NOT. There's more to martial arts than just fighting. but to each his own.

156 looking right now - 16 registered 10:49 EST. Apparently no one else has the b@lls to post their opinions so who gives a $hit about them?

[lkfmdc]

There's what? 5 people on this forum? LOL. and this forum will decide if TCMA is dead or not? come on man. NOT. There's more to martial arts than just fighting. but to each his own.

obtuse much?

yeah, thought so

[ginosifu]

Good old kung fu is not dead. However I think we are kind of a downward spiral that we need to pull up out of.

There still some of us who try to teach old school Fighting / Shuai Chiao / San Shou etc. to try and preserve kung fu the best we can. I think sometimes it's the modern people of today that don't want old school kung fu.

I have a commercial kung fu school, however I run (on the side) an old school class that is heavy on fighting drills / shuai chiao / sparring etc etc. I can not for the life of me keep students more than a couple of months without them quitting on me (sissies, all of them). Maybe it's just my neighborhood, maybe it's just me, I don't know?

There are good old sifu's somewhere still teaching good ole kung fu. It won't die, not just yet.

ginosifu

[Kansuke]

There's more to martial arts than just fighting. but to each his own.



...oh boy..................... :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

Inspired by the Tru-2-Form thread.

Is TCMA Dead? Has Tru-2-Form exposed the final nail in the Kung Fu fantasy coffin? Is San Da the only future for Chinese Martial Arts?

Reading MMA Evolution in China, it seems that the Chinese youth are embracing MMA in the form of hybrids like Sanda and BJJ in the same schools where they used to flock to TKD. Plus, this tru-2-form discussion (read it) really puts the spotlight on what TCMA considers fighting and it t'ain't that good.

Is there a future for TCMA styles or is TCMA Sanda the same thing?

tru2 form is NOT the general consensus of TCMA teachers and practitioners. It is crap promoted by larpers.
Sure, there are folks that believe this stuff. Always were, always will be.



It's just marketing. The general population watches TV, and goes out and buys.
Millions of people eat McDonald's. Everyone in the entire world eats McDonald's.

Is this the end of steak as we know it??? dumb.

[Snipsky]

LMAO. that is all.


obtuse much?

Repetition IS important huh? LOL. I think you think it is.

[TenTigers]

156 looking right now - 16 registered 10:49 EST. Apparently no one else has the b@lls to post their opinions so who gives a $hit about them?

I think most just don't give a sh1t.

[Snipsky]

tru2 form is NOT the general consensus of TCMA teachers and practitioners. It is crap promoted by larpers.
Sure, there are folks that believe this stuff. Always were, always will be.

tru2 form IS NOT TCMA. like TT said, ITS CRAP. Does that mean TCMA is dead? do THEY represent every single TCMA school out there? not sorry for this, but NO it doesn't.

[ginosifu]

There's more to martial arts than just fighting. but to each his own.

Actually I would disagree with that.

Martial = War or Fighting

If you are practicing any Martial Art then you need to be fighting. If you practice a performance art (Forms practice for competition) then you can say you don't have to fight. If you practice a health art like Tai Chi or practice forms strictly for health, then you ca say you don't need to fight.

just me 2 cents

ginosifu

[lkfmdc]

tru2 form is NOT the general consensus of TCMA teachers and practitioners. It is crap promoted by larpers.



so WHERE ARE ALL THESE KUNG FU FIGHTERS?

Sorry, I am going to be direct, that comes off as "rude" but it remains the open question

Where are all the kung fu people who fight?

(1) Between 1997 and 2000 ALL of the traditional kung fu schools stopped putting people in sanshou. You can ask sanshou guru to confirm this, but others actually already said this before. WHY? Why was American Sanshou between 1998 and 2002 only the "big 6"?

(2) Today, the organization supposedly representing Chinese martial art in the US has abandoned sanshou. There is simply no full contact fighting on the national level in Chinese martial arts

(3) I promoted full contact matches for almost a decade. The number of traditional schools that put students into fight I can count on the fingers of ONE HAND

(4) Nick Scrima's event has over 1000 people doing forms, for the extreme push hands, which doesn't even involved striking they had 9 or 10 competitors

So where are all these fighters? WHERE! Please tell us

[Snipsky]

Good old kung fu is not dead. However I think we are kind of a downward spiral that we need to pull up out of.

There still some of us who try to teach old school Fighting / Shuai Chiao / San Shou etc. to try and preserve kung fu the best we can. I think sometimes it's the modern people of today that don't want old school kung fu.

Not all Kung fu is falling to the way side. l

[Snipsky]

Actually I would disagree with that.

Martial = War or Fighting

If you are practicing any Martial Art then you need to be fighting. If you practice a performance art (Forms practice for competition) then you can say you don't have to fight. If you practice a health art like Tai Chi or practice forms strictly for health, then you ca say you don't need to fight.

Do you still teach the forms from your System Ginosifu? what about lion dancing? do you do public demo's at celebrations and such?

[Kansuke]

Do you still teach the forms from your System Ginosifu? what about lion dancing? do you do public demo's at celebrations and such?

...oh boy..................... :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

The guy in red shorts is a TCMA stylist (CLF) i believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWA6daJbEMs

[Snipsky]

..oh boy.....................

Oh boy youself. LOL. WTF are you doing in a kung fu forum kansuke? you're a wrestler aren't you? or do you have secret desires to become a TCMA practitioner? you secretly wear silky gung fu uniforms to bed don't you? .........OH BOY. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

This is always entertaining

whenever you point out the pathetic state that Chinese martial arts are in, when you point to the fact and when you can post things like tru-2-form, people get in a huge uproar

"NO NO NO! STOP THE INSANITY! KUNG FU IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT DEAD"

blah blah

Do you really think anyone in the Thai boxing community would do something like tru-2-fight?

Heck, do you even see karate and taekwondo people doing something THAT retarded? YES, RETARDED, let's just call it what it is already, I'm tired of being nice about it, it SUCKS

WHERE ARE THE KUNG FU FIGHTERS. Everyone on this forum trains with sparring, does bag rounds and can fight. Surely some of you have students who are entering full contact events then ???

Please ANSWER ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS, not all, just one or two would be nice

[lkfmdc]

The guy in red shorts is a TCMA stylist (CLF) i believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWA6daJbEMs

You put up SAN DA guys as an example of how traditional kung fu is still fighting? :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

"NO NO NO! STOP THE INSANITY! KUNG FU IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT DEAD"

No No, its dead. just on this forum, but yeah, its dead alright. :rolleyes:


You put up SAN DA guys as an example of how traditional kung fu is still fighting?

did you purposely overlook the fact that i said he was a CLF guy? CLF doesn't stand for "checking ladies feet"........but maybe you're lookin for a shaw brothers movie huh?

[ginosifu]

Do you still teach the forms from your System Ginosifu? what about lion dancing? do you do public demo's at celebrations and such?

Forms are just tools to help become a better MA and Fighter. Let me reiterate that: FORMS are tools that I use to make better overall fighters and MA. I teach forms and I run a commercial school, we have a whole set of people that like to practice forms, however they all fight or Shuai Chiao or both.

No Lion Dancing but we do Shuai Chiao for our demos (it looks cool when someone gets tossed high up in the air).

ginosifu

[lkfmdc]

Oh boy youself. LOL. WTF are you doing in a kung fu forum kansuke? you're a wrestler aren't you?



he trained Chinese martial arts IN CHINA

more than you apparently

[Shaolindynasty]

There are alot of tcma schools that have fighters for sanda at Jimmy Wongs tournament. A few years back they had 80 sanda fighters at 1 event.

Though they had hundreds of forms/light contact competitors

Real fighters are the minority in any martial art(strange but true)

I think there is room for everybody at some level.

[lkfmdc]

A few years back they had 80 sanda fighters at 1 event.



what year? no, honestly, in 2002 when sanshou was doing well, there were 150 fighters at the Arnolds. But that was 2002

the trend in CMA is away from fighting, I have no heard of a major sanshou event in YEARS

so I'd really like to know when he got 80 fighters

[ginosifu]

WHERE ARE THE KUNG FU FIGHTERS. Everyone on this forum trains with sparring, does bag rounds and can fight. Surely some of you have students who are entering full contact events then ??

Sifu Ross:

There are some of us who still promote San Shou. Me and John Ervin (my teacher) still try to put fighters out there. Lately I have been having trouble keepin hardcore students. But John been sending a few San Shou guys out at just Local events though.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

I think it's regional.

Apparently where Dave is, TCMA is dead.

In other people's minds and wishes, it is dead there too.

In my life and practice it is fully alive and thriving and I enjoy it as do my training partners.

I guess, you could wish as much as you like, but no one here really sees the big picture. Everyone is looking in their own yards really.

Dave, you don't move much beyond the boundaries of the north east, so you deal with what you see day in and day out and you are self admittedly bias about it all.

Straight up mma guys who never did tcma beyond an intro lesson really don't have a valid opinion or argument, so they can blow and suck as hard as they like, that c0ck is limp for them.

That's life. TCMA seems to be thriving in all it's iterations. Guys can complain as much as they like and say it's old ladies or this or that but the truth is I kind find within 100 miles of me more than a few capable, well educated, well versed and fully comprehending Sifus of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

[Snipsky]

GINOSIFU,

So you still teach forms? rest my case.

[Snipsky]

I completely find it hilarious that someone posts the WORST of the WORST and tries to label that as representative of ALL TCMA around the world. very sad indeed. what i still don't get is HOW AND WHY are you TCMA haters still on a TCMA forum? has anyone exlplained why the haters of TCMA keep coming back here?

is it only to insult? if so, very sad lives people have indeed.

[Kansuke]

Straight up mma guys who never did tcma beyond an intro lesson really don't have a valid opinion or argument, so they can blow and suck as hard as they like, that c0ck is limp for them.


hardwork108, is that you?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is no reason to not teach forms. The question is that of timing.

Forms are for ADVANCED students, to take thier mechanics training to the next level. They are not for students, and certainly not to learn how to fight. They are for people who already know how to fight.

[Snipsky]

hardwork108, is that you?

So asks the wrestler........WTF are you doing on a kung fu forum dude? :confused:


Forms are for ADVANCED students, to take thier mechanics training to the next level. They are not for students, and certainly not to learn how to fight. They are for people who already know how to fight.

this falls in line to how i approach it.


That's life. TCMA seems to be thriving in all it's iterations. Guys can complain as much as they like and say it's old ladies or this or that but the truth is I kind find within 100 miles of me more than a few capable, well educated, well versed and fully comprehending Sifus of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts.

punk drunk meatheads don't comprehend this.....LOL

[David Jamieson]

GINOSIFU,

So you still teach forms? rest my case.

I still teach forms too. :)

Often, that is actually what people want.
Here's a kicker, I've had so-called mma players ask me for forms! They wanted to buy them for their school because they felt that would legitamize them!

It is not one way or the other and no, kfm forum members don't really have much to do with what happens in the greater body except for those members who keep it alive.

there are obviously members here with chips on their shoulders and lots of bad negative to hand out, but take those opinions all you like. They're worth net nothing for the most part because it's mostly vitriol and not much solution. Or biased and way off track as in: "I would like to learn a kung fu style" responded to with "why get into sparring and lifting and mma because that's as close as you'll come to actually fighting yeah!" and then butt buddies chime in with their support for that and so on and meanwhile the guy that wants to learn a style is stymied by a bunch of meathead opinions.

I'm sure he is aware of that option and as many know, you can go hit stuff and get high percentage basics down at a walmart mma gym these days. That speaks to quality too doesn't it?

mma is good stuff, but lets not overblow it here. It is what it is and Kung Fu or more correctly traditional chinese martial arts are what they are.

waste of energy to complain about something you can't make a difference in one way or another.

I'll be over here doing some iron wire training. lol

[TenTigers]

There is no reason to not teach forms. The question is that of timing.

Forms are for ADVANCED students, to take thier mechanics training to the next level. They are not for students, and certainly not to learn how to fight. They are for people who already know how to fight.
depends. there are forms that are developmental, such as sam bo gin, saam jien kuen, jik bo kuen, etc that train structure, breath, and power generation.
But yeah, the textbook sets are for advanced students after they can fight.

[lkfmdc]

Dave, you don't move much beyond the boundaries of the north east,



When was the last time California, Oregon and Washington state were the "north east"?

Or Texas, Georgeia, Florida or Virginia?

Up until 2003 or so, there were NATIONAL LEVEL EVENTS and we went to ALL OF THEM. The USA WKF dropped sanshou from their national events and now the "team trials" for sanshou are in a guy's school in the middle of NO WHERE

What are the big, huge sanshou events in Canada? I have a rep up in Canada who says he cant' find sanshou events anymore

how many students do YOU have fighting right now?

Your post is a lot of talk, not much substance

[Kansuke]

So asks the wrestler........WTF are you doing on a kung fu forum dude? :confused:



Apparently I'm watching you demonstrate why this question came up.

[Snipsky]

I still teach forms too.

Often, that is actually what people want.
Here's a kicker, I've had so-called mma players ask me for forms! They wanted to buy them for their school because they felt that would legitamize them!

don't tell the grand total of 5 people on this forum that. they may try to teach forms to their own MMA guys and then try to commercialize it. LMAO

[Kansuke]

What? its a wrestling move to stick your fingers in someone's anus.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshkO8HqQ10




You're making yourself look worse and worse here, champ.

[Lokhopkuen]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f79/tenchibmw/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

[Snipsky]

You're making yourself look worse and worse here, champ.

LMAO.....OK. sure. I'll let YOU tell it. LMAO

[lkfmdc]

Snipsky = typical defender of TCMA

so, YES, dead on arrival, no hope, DNR, pull the plug

[Shaolindynasty]

what year? no, honestly, in 2002 when sanshou was doing well, there were 150 fighters at the Arnolds. But that was 2002

the trend in CMA is away from fighting, I have no heard of a major sanshou event in YEARS

so I'd really like to know when he got 80 fighters


I think it was '07. It was right after the ultimate fighter show got big. That time had the highest numbers for sanda. A few years previous I think they averaged around 30 and this year it was around 30. So the numbers they had between 05 and 08 could have been due to more LARPing.


Up until 2003 or so, there were NATIONAL LEVEL EVENTS and we went to ALL OF THEM. The USA WKF dropped sanshou from their national events and now the "team trials" for sanshou are in a guy's school in the middle of NO WHERE


USA WKF gets no suport for political reasons. People "in the know" understand the role politics and personal relationships play in terms of how much support an event gets.

[lkfmdc]

I think it was '07.



I am not trying to be rude, that that is like 4 years ago

see my point?




USA WKF gets no suport for political reasons. People "in the know" understand the role politics and personal relationships play in terms of how much support an event gets.

You had at that point seven (7) sanshou teams ACTIVELY competiing, ie attending every single event

They just dropped it! SINCE THEN due to politics we've sworn never to come back, but they haven't even TRIED to revive sanshou

THEY killed it, the Chinese guys in charge of Chinese martial arts in the US

[David Jamieson]

End the personal attacks.
Or at least be more eloquent in usage.

Deletions of the posts where it's sniping are getting deleted.
thanks
moi

seriously, Dave Ross is demanding it! :p

[lkfmdc]

Good job Jamieson!

[Kansuke]

i can teach you a tai chi form if you like :D



I'm pretty sure that you cannot, and I know for sure that you could never apply taijiquan in anything even remotely resembling a real situation.

[Lucas]

Is tcma dead? I say no. But neither is it popular. That I think is part of the issue, a big part. There are a lot of factors that contribute to that. There certainly are tcma teachers still around.

If something needs to be lifted and/or promoted, that is the duty of the dedicated, in this case, the tcma sifu. That's really who is responsible for furthering tcma. So if someone is truly concerned in the slightest about tcma popularity/life they need to ask what they currently do to support that. Not did, has done or what their teachers did, but what are you doing RIGHT NOW in today world to further tcma. If the answer is little to nothing....well there you have it.

[lkfmdc]

End the personal attacks.
Or at least be more eloquent in usage.

Deletions of the posts where it's sniping are getting deleted.
thanks
moi

seriously, Dave Ross is demanding it! :p

I have jamieson twisted around my little finger (evil laughter)

[Shaolindynasty]

am not trying to be rude, that that is like 4 years ago

see my point?




Sure. That was the high point. They still have some every year. My point is that the message boards would lead you to believe that there are no tcma fighters and there are some(even though they are the minority). I think it's the same in all martial arts. How many people practice karate vs compete full contact karate? How many people practice kickboxing vs compete in it? how many people practice mma vs compete in it? There will always be a majority that like the idea of it but don't step up


You had at that point seven (7) sanshou teams ACTIVELY competiing, ie attending every single event

They just dropped it! SINCE THEN due to politics we've sworn never to come back, but they haven't even TRIED to revive sanshou

THEY killed it, the Chinese guys in charge of Chinese martial arts in the US

'03 was even longer ago than '07. so there are ups and downs I don't think sanda is ever going to be as popular as other types of MA competition in the US. Part of the reason is political problems between the sifus etc.

[Snipsky]

As of this moment, 9-4 in favor of TCMA being alive, not well, but still alive.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69wII5AVZ7k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgrYTz10Joc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntYmo9ODYXM&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyduM99w0qU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-lyzyB_q7g

yeah, it's doing great :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

Praying Mantis - Long Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ3m86f31wc

Buk Sing CLF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus

Choy Lee Fut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOY6UiUV42k

Ng Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQvkN_rS26A

Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seiVleM4HIM

[MightyB]

Praying Mantis - Long Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ3m86f31wc

Buk Sing CLF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus

Choy Lee Fut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOY6UiUV42k

Ng Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQvkN_rS26A

Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seiVleM4HIM

This is where I'm going - everyone of these clips (and any clip for that matter) they are doing san da / san shou. Same moves seem to work or not work. Same strategies... etc. But here's the thing - guys who train san da / san shou do san da san shou better than guys who don't. Don't you get it?...

Look @ it from a common sense practical viewpoint. Every one who fights ends up doing something san da san shou like. Those who specifically train for san da san shou do it the best.

I'll let you fill in the blanks.

[David Jamieson]

crikey, I said stop.
please do.

I am now heading in to remove the crap.
If you keep it up I will request a ban.
thanks.

[Snipsky]

ban who? me? if so, for what?


But here's the thing - guys who train san da / san shou do san da san shou better than guys who don't. Don't you get it?...

If that is for me, you don't have to preach. I know this already. do i feel TCMA is dead? NO. Neither does the poll.

[David Jamieson]

My suggestion is that you simply ignore each other, then this perfectly legit thread doesn't look like a sniping match between you and kansuke.

cool with you? :)

[Snipsky]

I'm good with it. I wasn't the one who went around with neg'tive tudes. i just said TCMA isn't dead.

[Taixuquan99]

THEY killed it, the Chinese guys in charge of Chinese martial arts in the US

Quoted for truth. And let's not forget their sycophants.

[Taixuquan99]

When you have people trying to be traditional while not recognizing that some lifestyle aspects of the tradition, like actual combat, have to be replaced with something...

Teachers who take away rank for political or business reasons...

Teachers who say "I didn't teach them the real thing" and fail to recognize the act of fraud this is...

Students who allow themselves to support the above out of a sense of tradition or feeling special, the in crowd...

Then you have problems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As long as there is ONE person doing TCMA in a practial martial sense and ONE person teaching it, it is not dead.

[David Jamieson]

When you have people trying to be traditional while not recognizing that some lifestyle aspects of the tradition, like actual combat, have to be replaced with something...

Teachers who take away rank for political or business reasons...

Teachers who say "I didn't teach them the real thing" and fail to recognize the act of fraud this is...

Students who allow themselves to support the above out of a sense of tradition or feeling special, the in crowd...

Then you have problems.

Yes, I've seen these direct behaviours happening in real time and they are disheartening, disgusting and quite excellent because they also offer an opportunity for epiphany!

don't act on that and there is no one to blame but oneself!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, IF you take your system from the very beginning and apply it practically AND work the system specific "gungs" that any TCMA can and will have its "distinctive' look when being used practically.

[lkfmdc]

I think that, IF you take your system from the very beginning and apply it practically AND work the system specific "gungs" that any TCMA can and will have its "distinctive' look when being used practically.

Everyone has a selective look, one Nak Muay (that's a Muay Thai fighter to the rest of you all) does NOT look like the next one. Coban had a killer hook, Yodsenklai likes left kicks, Jongsanan had a teep and nice body punches

The real question, is will it look like "tru-2-form" or kung fu theatre? NO, never will, period

Snipsky puts up clips labelled "mantis" or "hsing yi" or "long fist" and all the guys look basicly the same, and they also look like those evil knucklehead MMA kickboxers

[Taixuquan99]

Are the evil knucklehead MMA kickboxers related to the Insane Clown Posse? I mean, beyond the Appalachian sense?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone has a selective look, one Nak Muay (that's a Muay Thai fighter to the rest of you all) does NOT look like the next one. Coban had a killer hook, Yodsenklai likes left kicks, Jongsanan had a teep and nice body punches

The real question, is will it look like "tru-2-form" or kung fu theatre? NO, never will, period

Snipsky puts up clips labelled "mantis" or "hsing yi" or "long fist" and all the guys look basicly the same, and they also look like those evil knucklehead MMA kickboxers

Will it ever look Shaw brothers?
Only IF the skill level difference is HUGE.
But will it have its distinct "flavour"?
Yes.

[Taixuquan99]

Shaw brothers=gangsters, unethical teachers beating up skinny students, and moronic summations of Chinese customs and practices.

Where don't you see this?

[lkfmdc]

But will it have its distinct "flavour"?


are you trying to jedi mind trick me

http://wklondon.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c823e53ef013484a71549970c-400wi

[sanjuro_ronin]

"This isn't the authentic TCMA you are looking for"...

[lkfmdc]

"This isn't the authentic TCMA you are looking for"...

this is the tag line for "Tru-2-Form" you know :D

[lkfmdc]

Are the evil knucklehead MMA kickboxers related to the Insane Clown Posse? I mean, beyond the Appalachian sense?

you tell me

[wenshu]

Knuckalos?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_d-J-JGsD_rQ/TQeA9c7aKZI/AAAAAAAAEpY/EcW4bFhFuDw/s1600/psychopathic_clink303.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

Inspired by the Tru-2-Form thread.

Is TCMA Dead? Has Tru-2-Form exposed the final nail in the Kung Fu fantasy coffin? Is San Da the only future for Chinese Martial Arts?

Reading MMA Evolution in China, it seems that the Chinese youth are embracing MMA in the form of hybrids like Sanda and BJJ in the same schools where they used to flock to TKD. Plus, this tru-2-form discussion (read it) really puts the spotlight on what TCMA considers fighting and it t'ain't that good.

Is there a future for TCMA styles or is TCMA Sanda the same thing?

Not gonna read the thread...too long too fast. Not a good sign. :)

The answer to the poll is No. There is a future. Yes.

Regardless of the bad, TCMA has good things to offer the MA that can't be found anywhere else...it will always have a place in MA (though the size of the place may keep shifting).

[lkfmdc]

"This isn't the authentic TCMA you are looking for"...

you know I just HAD TO DO IT :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

you know I just HAD TO DO IT :D

You are a bad man !! :D

[Subitai]

Why do I bother to Lurk here ocassionally i'll never know..To Support my big brothers forum???
Someone made the comment about the same 5 five people making broad sweeping statements about the state of TCMA. Only that many? So it must be true :rolleyes:

!!!!!!!!!!! Some Charletan like Gohring in his ony Fantasy world obviously does not encompass the entire planet. He's a wing nut and nothing more.

No matter what the discipline practiced...there will always be fighters and others who are not. It's that simple.

Some guys could not figure out how TCMA works for fighting so they turned to things like San Da to fill their void. Which is perhaps thier own insecurities to discover if they can dominate another human being and make themselves feel better. Mabe self defense or personal cultivation wasn't good enough for them. But they don't speak for the planet.


I guess I'll have to explain it to people who think that TCMA = fighting like forms (which it doesn't) Stupid frigin Tru 2 form idea is ridiculously naive and obsurd.

*** If I pick a few Trad Methods or concepts and make them work VS majority of my opponants, i'd say TCMA is alive and well. You cannot expect to be perfect, nobody is.

I've said this before: a boxer gets multiple rounds to TRY and set up his opponant and finish him. When he does, everyone says "what a good boxer he is"!

Now a TCMA comes along and is expected to look as if he's doing forms???? Bull crap!! He should be afforded the same opportunites and Multiple attempts to set up his opponant and use his skill. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO, If he doesn't look like a true 2 form Shaw Bros actor and wins on the first clash...then TMA (of any kind) must be invalid? :confused:



Lets say I practice a stand up art...and i'm good at it. We all know if my opponant doesn't give me what I NEED TO USE MY SKILLS then I must either learn to adjust or suffer. Everyone knows this and it's usually demonstrated perfectly in Competition Fighting. Why because, in SPORT it's the GOAL to find a way to BEAT your opponant against his Will.

Now in a different senario, i'm at the store and get into an argument with a guy and have a fight. This particular guy, knows nothing about me....doesn't even consider if i'm a MMA guy or a TCMA...He only knows that he wants to punch my face off. Blamo he's surprised to be on his ass when he attacks.

If anyone on this forum has EVER used a method or a concept from (any TMA) successfully on the street.... Then the end result is that TMA are VALID. For that was thier original purpose, for the most part.
Another way to look at it:
So i'm a grappler and I can lower my level and low outside ankle pick just about anyone if I set him up right. If I do it to a WC guy who was hoping to engage me in stand up (and hoped wrong) in this case.... It immediately makes TCMA worthless right. ;)

Same tired discussions that have been circling for years now....every time a new batch of praticioners that lack maturity and experience come across a few stumbling blocks they search for answers. But they just need to do the work.

TCMA is just hard work. Some people will do the work and others theorize about it.

[bawang]

i obsess about kung fu because i feel empty inside.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do I bother to Lurk here ocassionally i'll never know..To Support my big brothers forum???
Someone made the comment about the same 5 five people making broad sweeping statements about the state of TCMA. Only that many? So it must be true :rolleyes:

!!!!!!!!!!! Some Charletan like Gohring in his ony Fantasy world obviously does not encompass the entire planet. He's a wing nut and nothing more.

No matter what the discipline practiced...there will always be fighters and others who are not. It's that simple.

Some guys could not figure out how TCMA works for fighting so they turned to things like San Da to fill their void. Which is perhaps thier own insecurities to discover if they can dominate another human being and make themselves feel better. Mabe self defense or personal cultivation wasn't good enough for them. But they don't speak for the planet.


I guess I'll have to explain it to people who think that TCMA = fighting like forms (which it doesn't) Stupid frigin Tru 2 form idea is ridiculously naive and obsurd.

*** If I pick a few Trad Methods or concepts and make them work VS majority of my opponants, i'd say TCMA is alive and well. You cannot expect to be perfect, nobody is.

I've said this before: a boxer gets multiple rounds to TRY and set up his opponant and finish him. When he does, everyone says "what a good boxer he is"!

Now a TCMA comes along and is expected to look as if he's doing forms???? Bull crap!! He should be afforded the same opportunites and Multiple attempts to set up his opponant and use his skill. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO, If he doesn't look like a true 2 form Shaw Bros actor and wins on the first clash...then TMA (of any kind) must be invalid? :confused:



Lets say I practice a stand up art...and i'm good at it. We all know if my opponant doesn't give me what I NEED TO USE MY SKILLS then I must either learn to adjust or suffer. Everyone knows this and it's usually demonstrated perfectly in Competition Fighting. Why because, in SPORT it's the GOAL to find a way to BEAT your opponant against his Will.

Now in a different senario, i'm at the store and get into an argument with a guy and have a fight. This particular guy, knows nothing about me....doesn't even consider if i'm a MMA guy or a TCMA...He only knows that he wants to punch my face off. Blamo he's surprised to be on his ass when he attacks.

If anyone on this forum has EVER used a method or a concept from (any TMA) successfully on the street.... Then the end result is that TMA are VALID. For that was thier original purpose, for the most part.
Another way to look at it:
So i'm a grappler and I can lower my level and low outside ankle pick just about anyone if I set him up right. If I do it to a WC guy who was hoping to engage me in stand up (and hoped wrong) in this case.... It immediately makes TCMA worthless right. ;)

Same tired discussions that have been circling for years now....every time a new batch of praticioners that lack maturity and experience come across a few stumbling blocks they search for answers. But they just need to do the work.

TCMA is just hard work. Some people will do the work and others theorize about it.

It seems like you are suggesting the TCMA require MORE WORK to be effective than other systems of combat.
That would make them or their training methodolgies less effective, no?
:D

[lkfmdc]

Again, watching people froth at the mouth when they can't handle inconvenient truths




Some guys could not figure out how TCMA works for fighting so they turned to things like San Da to fill their void.



If san da is NOT the "chinese way" where are all the videos of "real" kung fu guys fighting the "real way"?

Is there any place on G'd's green earth we can view people fighting full contact and doing it the "right way"




thier own insecurities



maybe so called "traditional" kung fu people are the insecure ones, never able to demonstrate their claims, MMA is in like it's 80th year now you know




Mabe self defense or personal cultivation wasn't good enough for them.



how do you defend yourself if you can't fight?

personal cultivation? Join a 12 step group





Now a TCMA comes along and is expected to look as if he's doing forms???? Bull crap!! He should be afforded the same opportunites and Multiple attempts to set up his opponant and use his skill. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO, If he doesn't look like a true 2 form Shaw Bros actor and wins on the first clash...then TMA (of any kind) must be invalid? :confused:



I agree, you are really confused. In full contact fighting you get between 3 and 5 rounds to "make your point" regardless of what you practice. But, AGAIN, where are the people making those points

You just said kung fu doesn't have to look like forms, but before that you ragged on people doing san da

Make up your mind, what exactly IS your point?




Now in a different senario, i'm at the store and get into an argument with a guy and have a fight.



ah, so the value of TCMA is being able to beat up untrained people in the local 7-11? Really????

[Mas Judt]

I don't get. I trained Shuai Chiao and Chu Gar and used them effectively in the ring and elsewhere. Did I have to strategize to use my tools outside of their comfort zone? Well sure. But that's why it's called practice.

This whole thing is an argument created to defend teachers who don't know what they are doing OR are friggin delusional. The harsh fact is, most TCM is 'taught' not 'coached' and this is why so much of it sucks. That plus the insane desire to be important among many CMA types. It's like babysitting the bad kids hanging out with a lot of these folks. (That said, I know a lot of really cool folks, but like me, they tend to avoid the TCMA crowd for the reasons stated above.)

If your teacher is full of 'secrets' he is usually also full of sh!t or does not know much to begin with. If you can't learn and develop clearly defined skills that hold up to what others are doing, run from your school.

Gohring is a former Chung Moo Quan guy if my memory serves correctly. Tru 2 Form demonstrates how much people don't know about the stuff they practice.

[lkfmdc]

It seems like you are suggesting the TCMA require MORE WORK to be effective than other systems of combat.
That would make them or their training methodolgies less effective, no?
:D

Oh stop it! Stop applying logic, this is KUNG FU we are talking about!

[Subitai]

I'm about to go fishing so I"ll get back to you on these points.


Again, watching people froth at the mouth when they can't handle inconvenient truths


If san da is NOT the "chinese way" where are all the videos of "real" kung fu guys fighting the "real way"?

Is there any place on G'd's green earth we can view people fighting full contact and doing it the "right way"



maybe so called "traditional" kung fu people are the insecure ones, never able to demonstrate their claims, MMA is in like it's 80th year now you know



how do you defend yourself if you can't fight?

personal cultivation? Join a 12 step group




I agree, you are really confused. In full contact fighting you get between 3 and 5 rounds to "make your point" regardless of what you practice. But, AGAIN, where are the people making those points

You just said kung fu doesn't have to look like forms, but before that you ragged on people doing san da

Make up your mind, what exactly IS your point?



ah, so the value of TCMA is being able to beat up untrained people in the local 7-11? Really????

[lkfmdc]

I'm about to go fishing so I"ll get back to you on these points.

oh, we know you already WERE fishing....

[bawang]

in order to save kung fu, kung fu must die.

[lkfmdc]

I'm about to go fishing so I"ll get back to you on these points.


PS: this is HANDS DOWN the absolute BEST RESPONSE we've ever had on this forum in response to this sort of debate

I'll be sending you a "Tru-2-Form" (tm) official t-shirt and a copy of Chris Clark's new motivational DVD "walk like a monkey all the days of your life"

http://max-logic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/gone-fishin.jpg

[SPJ]

in order to save kung fu, kung fu must die.

a surfing dude already learned boxing and judo came to us

he said he wanted to learn kung fu.

we said, you already have it. your boxing and your judo are your gong fu.

on the other hand, if you are interested in ba gua or ba ji fighting methods, we may show you--

---

gong fu is whatever you have, or you feel most comfortable in using them--

--

:)

[Lucas]

I think the direct fighting aspects of application, reaction, conditioning in kungfu are the same as all other martial arts. The problem is in thinking that they aren't. Sure there are methodologies that may differ to achieve the requirements of being a competent fighter, but that also is the same across the board. That's a regional development. With modern communication, these differences grow less and less as better methods are observed and adopted the world over. The mistake is in thinking you don't need to evolve. Evolution of method is the real tradition of any fighting science.

[Snipsky]

Constant repetition is the key to some people's M.O. :) But it s nice to see.... 13 nays, 6 yays.
seems the minority group on the forum feel TCMA is dead.

[Kansuke]

Why do I bother to Lurk here ocassionally i'll never know..To Support my big brothers forum???
Someone made the comment about the same 5 five people making broad sweeping statements about the state of TCMA. Only that many? So it must be true :rolleyes:

!!!!!!!!!!! Some Charletan like Gohring in his ony Fantasy world obviously does not encompass the entire planet. He's a wing nut and nothing more.

No matter what the discipline practiced...there will always be fighters and others who are not. It's that simple.

Some guys could not figure out how TCMA works for fighting so they turned to things like San Da to fill their void. Which is perhaps thier own insecurities to discover if they can dominate another human being and make themselves feel better. Mabe self defense or personal cultivation wasn't good enough for them. But they don't speak for the planet.


I guess I'll have to explain it to people who think that TCMA = fighting like forms (which it doesn't) Stupid frigin Tru 2 form idea is ridiculously naive and obsurd.

*** If I pick a few Trad Methods or concepts and make them work VS majority of my opponants, i'd say TCMA is alive and well. You cannot expect to be perfect, nobody is.

I've said this before: a boxer gets multiple rounds to TRY and set up his opponant and finish him. When he does, everyone says "what a good boxer he is"!

Now a TCMA comes along and is expected to look as if he's doing forms???? Bull crap!! He should be afforded the same opportunites and Multiple attempts to set up his opponant and use his skill. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO, If he doesn't look like a true 2 form Shaw Bros actor and wins on the first clash...then TMA (of any kind) must be invalid? :confused:



Lets say I practice a stand up art...and i'm good at it. We all know if my opponant doesn't give me what I NEED TO USE MY SKILLS then I must either learn to adjust or suffer. Everyone knows this and it's usually demonstrated perfectly in Competition Fighting. Why because, in SPORT it's the GOAL to find a way to BEAT your opponant against his Will.

Now in a different senario, i'm at the store and get into an argument with a guy and have a fight. This particular guy, knows nothing about me....doesn't even consider if i'm a MMA guy or a TCMA...He only knows that he wants to punch my face off. Blamo he's surprised to be on his ass when he attacks.

If anyone on this forum has EVER used a method or a concept from (any TMA) successfully on the street.... Then the end result is that TMA are VALID. For that was thier original purpose, for the most part.
Another way to look at it:
So i'm a grappler and I can lower my level and low outside ankle pick just about anyone if I set him up right. If I do it to a WC guy who was hoping to engage me in stand up (and hoped wrong) in this case.... It immediately makes TCMA worthless right. ;)

Same tired discussions that have been circling for years now....every time a new batch of praticioners that lack maturity and experience come across a few stumbling blocks they search for answers. But they just need to do the work.

TCMA is just hard work. Some people will do the work and others theorize about it.






That post was one of the saddest, most pathetic combination of words I've seen in some time.


Please don't litter the forum like that.

[Kansuke]

i obsess about kung fu because i feel empty inside.

That's funny, I feel empty outside.

[SPJ]

my empty inside is filled by soft tone music

such as carrie underwood, kelly clarkson, kellie pickler genre

my empty ouside is reinforced with hiking, weight lifting, swimming and MA conditionally/drilling

--

my empty stomach is filled with bread and salad

my---

listening to "candle in the wind" by lauren alaina on pandora radio

---

[Lokhopkuen]

As long as there is ONE person doing TCMA in a practial martial sense and ONE person teaching it, it is not dead.

Oh my goodness a man of reason:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

TCMA is a philosophy and a way of cultivating yourself rooted in Chinese philosophies. TCMA is not a training method so much. If TCMA isn't dying, as much as the outdated training methods of some schools.

[omarthefish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-lyzyB_q7g

yeah, it's doing great :rolleyes:

Dude made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-8Rn_W0TJU&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

I hate China Boxer's videos. That takedown defense video is comedy, but most of his Wing Chun is reasonable in terms of what he actually does. However, his explanations are absolutely horrible.

[Robinhood]

TCMA is not a sport, it is not going away.

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

[Subitai]

Again, watching people froth at the mouth when they can't handle inconvenient truths

Hmmm, Ross... both of us were on this forum from way back. I can tell because we both have the "Join Date: Jan 1970". From way back when Gene took over "REC.MartialArts" user groups. Feels like 8-10yrs ago now.

In that time, i've made less than 150 posts VS yours at over 11k. I'd say that YOU Froth at the mouth and keyboard quite readily.



[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1123816] If san da is NOT the "chinese way" where are all the videos of "real" kung fu guys fighting the "real way"? Is there any place on G'd's green earth we can view people fighting full contact and doing it the "right way" QUOTE]

In my personal TCMA Hung Kuen, some schools have taken up San Shou as a supplement. But it should not over shadow our true skills.

The true way is w/o gloves and w/o a ring or rules. PERIOD. Why do you claim ignorance of this...did you not a few yrs ago yourself get called out by some TCMA to show your OWN REAL Stuff??? I'm not that far away (i'm in CT) so I heard what happend from some of my NY buddies.



[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1123816] maybe so called "traditional" kung fu people are the insecure ones, never able to demonstrate their claims, MMA is in like it's 80th year now you know

how do you defend yourself if you can't fight? QUOTE]

You must first been given the correct tools and once again, "You're either a fighter at heart or not".



[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1123816] personal cultivation? Join a 12 step group QUOTE]
Cheap Jab




[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1123816] I agree, you are really confused. In full contact fighting you get between 3 and 5 rounds to "make your point" regardless of what you practice. But, AGAIN, where are the people making those points

You just said kung fu doesn't have to look like forms, but before that you ragged on people doing san da

Make up your mind, what exactly IS your point? QUOTE]


This is how I know you never figured out how to use your TCMA correctly and why you embraced San da.

My point is this: If I just met you, say for example at one of the east coast Sifu Gatherings... (ask Ten Tigers to invite you some time)

Lets say we squared up, do you expect me to Hong Kong Fooey you on the VERY 1st Jab you throw at me (as an example) No, as a TCMA, I can still wait or flow with you to get into your rythym and then make it work....ala just as a boxer does. Only I wont be bouncing around as a kick boxer does, we don't don't that.

But my complaint was that other people (perhaps yourself) don't give a KF man that sort of affordance of time. If I don't Kung Fu you in half a heart beat...then TCMA sucks right? Bull Sh!TT

[Subitai]

That post was one of the saddest, most pathetic combination of words I've seen in some time.


Please don't litter the forum like that.



So sayeth the looser who posts from anonymity... at least say who you are in your profile or leave a clue as who you are.

[HumbleWCGuy]

[QUOTE=Subitai;1123965]

In my personal TCMA Hung Kuen, some schools have taken up San Shou as a supplement. But it should not over shadow our true skills.

The true way is w/o gloves and w/o a ring or rules. PERIOD. Why do you claim ignorance of this...did you not a few yrs ago yourself get called out by some TCMA to show your OWN REAL Stuff??? I'm not that far away (i'm in CT) so I heard what happend from some of my NY buddies.


[QUOTE]
There is no better way to become a competent martial artist than to participate in sporting competitions. However, I agree that if you want to follow in the tradition of our ancestors and be fully ready for the ancient battlefield, it is necessary to train with vary light gloves, learn to use the palms, weapons, and put on the face shields to train I gouges and so on.

[Kansuke]

But my complaint was that other people (perhaps yourself) don't give a KF man that sort of affordance of time. If I don't Kung Fu you in half a heart beat...then TCMA sucks right? Bull Sh!TT


How many times are you going to try and prop up this straw man? Where has anyone here made that criticism of TCMA? We've seen plenty of the exact opposite argument by the 'too deadly for the ring' crowd.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So sayeth the looser who posts from anonymity... at least say who you are in your profile or leave a clue as who you are.

The thing that you guys don't realize is that potential employers will google you if you are going for professional position. Posting crap like most people do can be very detrimental to people's professional reputations. It's become important enough that people have finally realized that it is necessary to purchase services to guard their reputations against libelous claims. It's absolutely foolish to put your name out here and act as most people do unless, your career plans involve Wal Mart greeter or McDonalds.

[Kansuke]

So sayeth the looser who posts from anonymity... at least say who you are in your profile or leave a clue as who you are.



If you're looking for a date you've got the wrong forum. And your lame little insults might be more effective if you learned how to spell.

[Snipsky]

How many times are you going to try and prop up this straw man? Where has anyone here made that criticism of TCMA?

Oh boy oh boy!!!!:rolleyes:

[PalmStriker]

Modern ****genized SportFighting is always going to interest people who have no interest in practicing TCMA. Is kung Fu all about sportfighting? Answer: not much, some interest. Kungfu dead? Is eating Traditional Chinese Cuisine dead? No more eggrolls? Don't think so. :)

[lkfmdc]

Subitai, You have some serious problems with both reading comprehension and basic logic




Hmmm, Ross... both of us were on this forum from way back. I can tell because we both have the "Join Date: Jan 1970". From way back when Gene took over "REC.MartialArts" user groups. Feels like 8-10yrs ago now.

In that time, i've made less than 150 posts VS yours at over 11k. I'd say that YOU Froth at the mouth and keyboard quite readily.



What does that have to do with ANYTHING in this thread? :rolleyes:





did you not a few yrs ago yourself get called out by some TCMA to show your OWN REAL Stuff??? I'm not that far away (i'm in CT) so I heard what happend from some of my NY buddies.



LMFAO, dude, you need better material. Considering your "friends" weren't there you are just mouthing stuff you heard from a bunch of dudes who heard stuff from some people who weren't there :rolleyes:

Don't believe "hype" and rumor, that actually applies to what we are talking abut here, ie fairy tales about fantasy fu





you never figured out how to use your TCMA correctly and why you embraced San da.



again, you can't even describe what is "real kung fu" but I don't do it huh? :rolleyes:





I wont be bouncing around as a kick boxer does, we don't don't that.



you just showed you have no idea what kickboxing is

[lkfmdc]

So sayeth the looser who posts from anonymity...



Yet YOU say "I heard some stuff from some of my friends"

ANONYMOUS FRIENDS

Friends who in fact, we know for a fact, were not at the event they claim to be talking about

So they heard from someone who wasn't there, weren't there themselves, told you and you put it on the forum as "evidence"

yeah, you're batting 1000 on this

[Kansuke]

you just showed you have no idea what kickboxing is



He's going out of his way to show that he has no idea about many things.

[Lebaufist]

Ross,
You do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the state of kung fu. You attack it as a whole. Instead of just the aspects of the people you feel that debase it. You spend countless hours enforcing the idea that you train winners in san da and how that is not part of your CMA experience. Considering you did spent a sizable amount of your adult life practicing in the self same methods you now abhor, I think you have severe self loathing issues.

In fact, you didn't really become this repugnantly abrasive about it all until after your great teacher's passing. Did you feel that he held you back? That he spent too much time on form proficiency? Granted that he was a true traditionalist and made you put on gear and spar like any real teacher would. But why this seething hate for something as simple as a form? Its just a tool. Its like being angry at a hammer or a vending machine.

P.s. Please remember that subitai actually fought in UFC matches, you haven't, so I don't think its fair that you address him as if he was some fantasy footballer. Personally, I think he could kick your butt 12 ways till Easter. Buts thats just me.

[Snipsky]

Ross,
You do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the state of kung fu.

he does the same thing with his "achievements"......:D just sayin :eek:

[lkfmdc]

Ross,
You do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the state of kung fu.



Actually, I just cause a huge hissy fit on this forum because anyone who ever suggests kung fu is anything but perfect rocks the delicate pillars of the community

Trust me when I say, I really could not give a flying rat's tail about the "state of kung fu"




You attack it as a whole.



You might want to read two days worth of posts I made about the actual applications of traditional Chinese kung fu techniques

Just a thought




You spend countless hours enforcing the idea that you train winners in san da



No, I don't. I've mentioned it when people want "evidence" or say stupid things to me like "well how do you know!"

How do I know what works in fights? Well, because I train people who do well in them

If I told you I was an auto mechanic and I couldn't explain to you how to do an oil change?




and how that is not part of your CMA experience. Considering you did spent a sizable amount of your adult life practicing in the self same methods you now abhor, I think you have severe self loathing issues.



I have never said it was not "part" but I have said there is a lot more to being effective in 2011 than just doing what they did "back in teh day"

Funny, one day you say I am conceited, the next you say I am self loathing, make up your mind :rolleyes:




In fact, you didn't really become this repugnantly abrasive about it all until after your great teacher's passing.



I adopted the name "san da" for what I do, put fighters in the ring and have been writing the same sort of stuff since 1997. CTS died in 2004. Your math is a bit off

People project, they project so much they can't even respond at times to simple, direct questions posed to them

Or completely fail to see their lack of logic

[lkfmdc]

P.s. Please remember that subitai actually fought in UFC matches, you haven't, so I don't think its fair that you address him as if he was some fantasy footballer. Personally, I think he could kick your butt 12 ways till Easter. Buts thats just me.

He says "san da" is NOT the real way to fight with kung fu, so I asked him "what is the real way" and why is there nothing at all to demonstrate this real way

I just found on his web site him saying he is certified in San Da! After all his ranting and raving against san da he says he is a certified coach in it.

He says kung fu has proved its effectiveness in the street. Has it? Are random annecdotal stories about street fights evidence of effectiveness

I could go on with a long list of things he has said that just simply are not logical

[Lebaufist]

You haven't actually refuted anything, just spun it. Ands some of it was non sequitur. Thats OK, I can be adult enough for the both of us.

[Lebaufist]

He says "san da" is NOT the real way to fight with kung fu, so I asked him "what is the real way" and why is there nothing at all to demonstrate this real way

I just found on his web site him saying he is certified in San Da! After all his ranting and raving against san da he says he is a certified coach in it.

He says kung fu has proved its effectiveness in the street. Has it? Are random annecdotal stories about street fights evidence of effectiveness

I could go on with a long list of things he has said that just simply are not logicalThis is something for him to answer. Although it seems you are coloring and oversimplifying it a bit.

[lkfmdc]

You haven't actually refuted anything, just spun it. Ands some of it was non sequitur. Thats OK, I can be adult enough for the both of us.

The things I say work in a fight, I can show you hour after hour after hour of footage of it being done in real fights

No one has yet shown someone in a real fight using stylized "kung fu moves"

Snipsky even put up a bunch of clips labelled, "wing chun", "hsing yi" etc etc and everyone in those was fighting the same way, and that same way isn't any different than the "san da"/"kickboxing" everyone says isn't "the real stuff"

[Snipsky]

If I told you I was an auto mechanic and I couldn't explain to you how to do an oil change?

you'd have to become a student and actually learn how to become a mechanic. :rolleyes:

[Lebaufist]

He says kung fu has proved its effectiveness in the street. Has it? Are random annecdotal stories about street fights evidence of effectiveness

lUm, thats a problem, you see...you've already shown news clippings of your teacher doing just this.

[Lebaufist]

The things I say work in a fight, I can show you hour after hour after hour of footage of it being done in real fights

No one has yet shown someone in a real fight using stylized "kung fu moves"

Snipsky even put up a bunch of clips labelled, "wing chun", "hsing yi" etc etc and everyone in those was fighting the same way, and that same way isn't any different than the "san da"/"kickboxing" everyone says isn't "the real stuff"So which is it? None of what you do is kung fu based or is it? I'm sure you're not suggesting that application has to be in sync perfection with a form now , are you? That would be kinda dumb.

[lkfmdc]

Um, thats a problem, you see...you've already shown news clippings of your teacher doing just this.

you fail logic 101. I can say "CTS was pretty handy on the street" and show you a clippiing about HIM

Does that mean everyone associated with him is? NO

Does it mean every Lama person is? NO

Does it mean all kung fu people are?NO

really, either you can't follow a linear chain of basic logic or you are just trolling at this point

[lkfmdc]

Yeah, it's clear that you have no interest in logical arguments, you just want to go "no" :rolleyes:

[Lebaufist]

Does that mean he's the only one capable?

[Lebaufist]

Yeah, it's clear that you have no interest in logical arguments, you just want to go "no" :rolleyes:History would indict you faster than me in that respect, my friend.

[Lebaufist]

No one has yet shown someone in a real fight using stylized "kung fu moves"



Um, thats a problem, you see...you've already shown news clippings of your teacher doing just this.


Yeah, it's clear that you have no interest in logical arguments, you just want to go "no" :rolleyes:

I see a logical progression. One statement followed by a fact that contradicts it. Logic isn't an issue. You can't really use that hall pass in this case. Oh well.

[MightyB]

So which is it? None of what you do is kung fu based or is it? I'm sure you're not suggesting that application has to be in sync perfection with a form now , are you? That would be kinda dumb.

I have to jump in here - and you guys are getting into personal attacks - no need to do that, just argue your points and move on... anyway - the above quote is why I started the poll.

Here's the deal - if fighting isn't anything like the forms... then I guess forms are questionable. If you don't fight like any style, but all styles fight the same... then I guess styles are questionable too. So then - what is TCMA? Is the notion of TCMA dead or alive? What could be a way to make "TCMA" applicable in a fighting situation? Is it correct to say we teach San Da for fighting and TCMA for tradition? That begs the question... "Why?".

[lkfmdc]

I have to jump in here - and you guys are getting into personal attacks -



Pointing out his posts are illogical is NOT a "personal attack"

The real point, completely clear from his last few posts, is he is NOT interested in a real discussion of the issues, he is just trolling




Here's the deal - if fighting isn't anything like the forms... then I guess forms are questionable. If you don't fight like any style, but all styles fight the same... then I guess styles are questionable too. So then - what is TCMA? Is the notion of TCMA dead or alive? What could be a way to make "TCMA" applicable in a fighting situation? Is it correct to say we teach San Da for fighting and TCMA for tradition? That begs the question... "Why?".

Well, that IS the basic question, or a variation upon it at the very least

[SPJ]

kung fu is dead

or the training and fighting methods are dead, or sam oh sam oh (the same old)

but you bring life to it.

the individual practitoners vary them.

we may not stick to the dead methods all the time

we have to vary them

--

:cool:

[Lebaufist]

Here's the deal - if fighting isn't anything like the forms... then I guess forms are .Thats a red herring. The lessons gleaned from the form work are being used. If you do one punch with a solid step and an ordered flow, you are using your form.

You made a giant leap where there was none.

Jumping jacks aren't like fighting either. But you'll do them. Form work helps with rhythm, continuity, possible technique choices, etc. Its a just a tool.

You want to make san da look like the form? Simple, get lower. Don't just stroll up to each other and trade hits. heck, MMA striking is looking more like kung fu than san da does.

[lkfmdc]

Some people who can do forms can fight (some people who do forms clearly can NOT fight)

There are tons of people who can fight who have never done forms

Forms therefore are irrelevant to fighting

It has also been pointed out MANY TIMES that not all TCMA lineages actually do forms, and MOST of the lineages not that long ago did far less forms than is currently in circulation today

ALSO, what in the forms "works"? Straight punches, hook punches, uppercuts, overhands, elbows, knees, kicks, sweeps. Does ANY of that stuff not exist in non-Chinese martial arts?

Can any of that stuff NOT be trained without forms?

These are pretty simple, straight forward questions

[RenDaHai]

SO that now you few have decided that TCMA is dead, will you leave the forum? I mean, if its dead there is no need of a forum.


If you were to fight Anderson Silva, but told him he could only use wing chuns Bong Sao, don't you think he would still kick your ass? Why? because ability to fight is not in the form we use but in the mind of the user.

Of course boxers do the best punch, because they train it several hours a day exclusively. ANY technique from TCMA if trained several hours a day exclusively would become AWESOME. ANY movement of the body what so ever will become awesome if you train it enough.

If you only do a TCMA technique in a form you practice once a week, then off course it is going to suck.

If you want it to work you have to actually train its use... But thats on YOU.

Training is on you, don't blame the technique. A BAD WORKMAN BLAMES HIS TOOLS. An old adage, but if you guys STILL don't understand it.....

My point is there is nothing wrong with TCMA, its not dead. Whats wrong is only the way you choose to train it.

ALSO;

Why do people always complain about forms? Boxers skip like schoolgirls... and it helps their boxing immensely. Forms are like a boxers skipping, running and stretching and shadow work all rolled into one! They are incredible excercises, but off course they should not be trained alone! Just like a boxer shouldn't only skip.

[Lebaufist]

Some people who can do forms can fight (some people who do forms clearly can NOT fight)Those who cannot were never taught how. Its a fallacy to blame the form and not the instructor. Thats like blaming the hammer because the nail didn't go in straight.


There are tons of people who can fight who have never done formsThere are people that build shelters without using a hammer, is a hammer then a superfluous tool?



Forms therefore are irrelevant to fightingAgain, a fallacy of logic. You are mistaking relevance for method.



It has also been pointed out MANY TIMES that not all TCMA lineages actually do forms, and MOST of the lineages not that long ago did far less forms than is currently in circulation today true, but still quantity is not the problem, its usage. As refereed to the above, don't blame the form for the instructors inability.



ALSO, what in the forms "works"? Straight punches, hook punches, uppercuts, overhands, elbows, knees, kicks, sweeps. Does ANY of that stuff not exist in non-Chinese martial arts? Its never been about singular content or exclusivity. The differences between styles is execution and strategy. Whats missing from your analogy is the footwork. Which is missing. Also, you'd have to teach HOW to perform those hits, WHEN to use them, WHERE you should be while performing them. Thats that form of your practice.



Can any of that stuff NOT be trained without forms? If you made a small combo set out of your movement then you have practiced a form. You cannot escape it.



These are pretty simple, straight forward questionsNot really, they are based on incomplete assumptions. A red herring.

[SPJ]

forms are dead

but fighting is alive.

use whatever you have been learning in drilling and forms

to fight

blow a life to a dead thing (training methods)

training of kung fu is repetition, repetition

but fighting is a lively beast

so fight by randomizing your methods

cook up your entering and exiting tactics and strategy

fight your way, your style,

you make the cut or make the deal, you fight the way you fight

---

etc etc

[Lebaufist]

A hammer is a dead thing, until someone picks it up.

[Snipsky]

ALSO, what in the forms "works"? Straight punches, hook punches, uppercuts, overhands, elbows, knees, kicks, sweeps. Does ANY of that stuff not exist in non-Chinese martial arts?

It works in both chinese and non chinese martial arts. still, are you trying to say forget a kung fu school that focuses on forms, lion dancing and fighting and just go to you? thats kinda what i hear from all of this.

[Lucas]

. ANY movement of the body what so ever will become awesome if you train it enough.

If you only do a TCMA technique in a form you practice once a week, then off course it is going to suck.



completely true, just axe one of my wives!

[Lebaufist]

One could do just singular techniques over and over, and I think any fighter worth his sweat will do this.

But I have seen such people who exclusively do this have a hard time bridging one set of techniques together with the next. They do something and immediately reset. And they tend to fight "in place". This is where form work really becomes useful, IMO. The ability to go from one type of technique to another. Continuity.

[Lebaufist]

It works in both chinese and non chinese martial arts. still, are you trying to say forget a kung fu school that focuses on forms, lion dancing and fighting and just go to you? thats kinda what i hear from all of this.This is where logic fails. The assumption subconsciously is that if you do form you automatically don't fight, hit a bag, condition yourself or do any and all the things anybody else who fights does.

And yes, he does sound like a commercial sometimes. LOL.

[Snipsky]

completely true, just axe one of my wives!

you mormon you!!!!! :d

[Lebaufist]

Thats really a stylistic preference.

[mooyingmantis]

If the forms you were taught weren't/aren't relevant, perhaps YOUR art just sucks. Yes, some arts do suck. Sorry, I know the truth hurts. However, that doesn't make it any less the truth.

In my past 43 years of training I have come across arts that sucked. By sucked I mean they were worthless for fighting. There was little realistic means of applying techniques from the forms in the ring or in the street.

Monkey boxing is a realistic art that works in the ring and in the street. Monkey Master Chan Sau Chung's students have won numerous fighting championships and I have proven its effectiveness on the street and in a sometimes hostile work environment.

Praying Mantis has forms made up of simple fighting combinations that work in any scenario. No qi blasts, no internal quackery, just solid punching, kicking, locking and tripping/throwing techniques. Few flowers, mostly solid dirt!

TCMA is alive and well in my styles. It has outlasted Communist oppression, Hong Kong film stupidity, and American liberal ethics. It still stands strong. Will YOU stand with it?

[bawang]

TCMA is alive and well in my styles. It has outlasted Communist oppression, Hong Kong film stupidity, and American liberal ethics. It still stands strong. Will YOU stand with it?

you have to look at judge kung fu as a whole, not your own small bubble. you have to have courage take responsibility.

[hskwarrior]

Praying Mantis has forms made up of simple fighting combinations that work in any scenario. No qi blasts, no internal quackery, just solid punching, kicking, locking and tripping/throwing techniques. Few flowers, mostly solid dirt!

my sifu says the very same thing for choy lee fut.


you have to look at judge kung fu as a whole, not your own small bubble. you have to have courage take responsibility.

One man will change all of gung fu! yeah that will happen. that one man just won't be from this forum. LOL

[bawang]

One man will change all of gung fu! yeah that will happen. that one man just won't be from this forum. LOL

that one man is david ross.

also, dont fukin talk to me until you accept your clf christian heritage. taiping fo life. fo LIFE.

[lkfmdc]

If the forms you were taught weren't/aren't relevant,



WHAT in your forms are relevant? Is every single movement in your form relevant?

and, AGAIN (for like the 10,000 time) is the stuff that is relevant any different or "special" or "secret"?




Monkey boxing is a realistic art that works in the ring and in the street. Monkey Master Chan Sau Chung's students have won numerous fighting championships and I have proven its effectiveness on the street and in a sometimes hostile work environment.



"monkey boxing" is a meaningless term. It doesn't exist in Chinese

Chan Sau Chung does dai sing PEK GWA myuhn

the PEK GWA is the base of all the training (heck , we just found out he now has 128 pek gwa forms! :eek: good god!)

PEK GWA is kicks, punches, elbows, knees and trips. there are no "chi blasts" in there. there is nothing in there that I can't find in non-Chinese martial arts. There is nothing SPECIAL ABOUT the material

and PEK GWA is what his fighters use. They never beat a Thai boxer by rolling on the floor, or scratching their head, or leaping over their foot, etc etc etc

Have you actually seen the movies of his guys fighitng? I have, Wai Hong has (had?) them.

I have "bad news", they look like "kickboxers"




Praying Mantis has forms made up of simple fighting combinations that work in any scenario. No qi blasts, no internal quackery, just solid punching, kicking, locking and tripping/throwing techniques. Few flowers, mostly solid dirt!



AH! NOW we are getting some place. But that is exactly my point!

So what are we arguing about? :eek::confused:

[hskwarrior]

that one man is david ross.

also, dont fukin talk to me until you accept your clf christian heritage. taiping fo life.

Figures YOU would say that. LOL

OK. CLF is Christian. Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut is not. :D

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Oy3vTqvH8&feature=related


kung fu might be dead, but taiping will live in my heart forever.

[hskwarrior]

You can take the people out of Tai Ping, but you can't take the Tai Ping out of the People!!!

[lkfmdc]

taiping is very relevant to kung fu in general but not forms in particular

[bawang]

seriously speaking, when i visited the taiping meseum, i touched the throne of hong xiuquan, and some old weapons. i felt a great sadness, and a special connection.
kung fu has nothing to do with forms, it is an idea. ideas never die.

[lkfmdc]

kung fu has nothing to do with forms, it is an idea. ideas never die.

well, if you want to get sentimental and all ..... gggeeeeeezzzzz

all fighting is "kung fu"... "kung fu" can't really die

TCMA... well :D

[bawang]

kung fu forms dont look like real fighting. make your forms like its real fighting. problem solved.

[hskwarrior]

seriously speaking, when i visited the taiping meseum, i touched the throne of hong xiuquan, and some old weapons. i felt a great sadness, and a special connection.
kung fu has nothing to do with forms, it is an idea. ideas never die.

i'm happy for you really that you can relate so much to our brother hong xiuquan. congrats. all the best with that. :)

[SPJ]

seriously speaking, when i visited the taiping meseum, i touched the throne of hong xiuquan, and some old weapons. i felt a great sadness, and a special connection.
kung fu has nothing to do with forms, it is an idea. ideas never die.

taiping shook the foundation of qing.

somehow, the british turned their back and fought for qing

and the rest of western powers followed

taiping started his downturn.

this shake up

paved the road for republican revolution

this year marks 100 years of founding the first republic in east asia.

---

the rest is the history.

--

[hskwarrior]

this year marks 100 years of founding the first republic in east asia.

Yes, this is the 100th anniversary of the XinHai Revolution. We're holding an invitation only exhibit in san fran soon for this occasion.

[PalmStriker]

SO that now you few have decided that TCMA is dead, will you leave the forum? I mean, if its dead there is no need of a forum.


If you were to fight Anderson Silva, but told him he could only use wing chuns Bong Sao, don't you think he would still kick your ass? Why? because ability to fight is not in the form we use but in the mind of the user.

Of course boxers do the best punch, because they train it several hours a day exclusively. ANY technique from TCMA if trained several hours a day exclusively would become AWESOME. ANY movement of the body what so ever will become awesome if you train it enough.

If you only do a TCMA technique in a form you practice once a week, then off course it is going to suck.

If you want it to work you have to actually train its use... But thats on YOU.

Training is on you, don't blame the technique. A BAD WORKMAN BLAMES HIS TOOLS. An old adage, but if you guys STILL don't understand it.....

My point is there is nothing wrong with TCMA, its not dead. Whats wrong is only the way you choose to train it.

ALSO;

Why do people always complain about forms? Boxers skip like schoolgirls... and it helps their boxing immensely. Forms are like a boxers skipping, running and stretching and shadow work all rolled into one! They are incredible excercises, but off course they should not be trained alone! Just like a boxer shouldn't only skip. Most boxers bring their jumpropes "with" and skip to their Loo's for at least the first 3 rounds. This shows off versatality. :)

[PalmStriker]

kung fu forms dont look like real fighting. make your forms like its real fighting. problem solved.
Now we're on to something ! :) Profound!

[Subitai]

Originally Posted by Subitai

Hmmm, Ross... both of us were on this forum from way back. I can tell because we both have the "Join Date: Jan 1970". From way back when Gene took over "REC.MartialArts" user groups. Feels like 8-10yrs ago now. In that time, i've made less than 150 posts VS yours at over 11k. I'd say that YOU Froth at the mouth and keyboard quite readily.



What does that have to do with ANYTHING in this thread? :rolleyes:

You mean this?

Again, watching people froth at the mouth when they can't handle inconvenient truths That you addressed to me in your post #83??

Man, you're 11k + posts has turned you into a forum master of avoiding MY quotes of you. How nice for you.




LMFAO, dude, you need better material. Considering your "friends" weren't there you are just mouthing stuff you heard from a bunch of dudes who heard stuff from some people who weren't there :rolleyes:
Don't believe "hype" and rumor, that actually applies to what we are talking abut
there, ie fairy tales about fantasy fu

Oh really??? I know personally who was there.

- How would I know that your MOM didn't want people wearing shoes in the ring with her Shrieking accented voice?

-That you basically "held on" to your opponent for 15mins...and you had students walk out on you after. Once they saw how you can't fight?



again, you can't even describe what is "real kung fu" but I don't do it huh? :rolleyes:

BS, I had given you a PERFECT example of how I taught a raw student and it worked. NUFF SAID.

You think I didn't describe it, because you don't understand. If I work a methodology, make it my bread and butter and can use it effectively then that's Kung Fu. Doesn't matter if it's against Trained or Untrained people...it's just hard work. You are fool for even questioning it.

I've just come to the conclusion that you also don't fear Untrained Opponents because you are looking at it ONCE AGAIN from a SPORT SAN DA point of view. Yeah, in the rules of San Da and untrained Fighter sucks.

In the street, any dude who's athletic and aggresive can be dangerous even if he's untrained in any formal discipline. Man get off your high horse and admit that some people can be down right dangerous and scary in the street and all they ever learned was to street bum rush you!

and I know you're going to come back with this:

And NO ONE in MMA, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, kickboxing etc has ever been able to use their mere "sport" skills in the street!


But once again, I acknowledge that but also I maintain that if someone has actually USED a TMA in the street...then they are also valid. That is all.



you just showed you have no idea what kickboxing is


Yeah I did san shou / san da... what about it? If anything it serves to prove my point, Which is after years of fighting in those formats that I chose to do TCMA. I also maintain that NOT EVERYONE is a natural fighter. Some people CAN and some people Can't but that goes for Sand Da as well as TMA's.

Ross you've basically Bulldozed your way through this forum for years now. You got so many people to believe your BS...it's all talk. Those who talk the most are usually compensating for the most. 11k + posts are you kidding me? Get off your ass and do some work man.

I'm just sick of you infecting this forum with your BS of how TMA's are ineffective and making off comments about about cool silk pj's. (it's the major tone in majority of your posts)

And PS...
Screw you on that Comment about me Fishing. Anyone that knows me, also knows that other than teaching and training, Bass Fishing is a personal hobby of mine.

[lkfmdc]

Oh really??? I know personally who was there.



No, you don't, but you think you do




- How would I know that your MOM didn't want people wearing shoes in the ring with her Shrieking accented voice?

-That you basically "held on" to your opponent for 15mins...and you had students walk out on you after. Once they saw how you can't fight?



My mom was no where near there. And no students left, but if you believe it, GOOD FOR YOU. Believe whatever you want

but I must say it IS darn funny hearing people talk about things they think are true but have no idea how false they are

Did you hear it from Dixon Fung? Or from someone that heard it from Dixon Fung?

Did you miss the posts about how Dixon wanted to come to the fight but his wife wouldn't let him, so afterwards he made up a story about being there?




Ross you've basically Bulldozed your way through this forum for years now. You got so many people to believe your BS...



So you don't like that people agree with me? Well, if you want to run a forum you certainly can and you can ban or edit or delete anything that you don't agree with. Here, that doesn't happen. There are people like me who see tons of problems with TCMA. There are people who think there are no problems. There are people who think "Tru-2-form" are a great idea




I'm just sick of you infecting this forum with your BS of how TMA's are ineffective and making off comments about about cool silk pj's. (it's the major tone in majority of your posts)



Here's one for you to ponder, if it was 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that kung fu is 100% fine with no problems, do you think anyone would be moved by what I write? Do you really think me, ONE PERSON, is radically changing the world so that TCMA has lost respect and is viewed by many critically?

But again, basicly, you just don't like that I post negative views about things, even though I provide plenty of evidence and examples

[Snipsky]

Here's one for you to ponder, if it was 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that kung fu is 100% fine with no problems, do you think anyone would be moved by what I write? Do you really think me, ONE PERSON, is radically changing the world so that TCMA has lost respect and is viewed by many critically?

I doubt this. I also doubt that you ross, can or will be the ONE person to change kung fu. i think you think you will, but i still doubt you could or ever will. just sayin. no disrespect intended.


But again, basicly, you just don't like that I post negative views about things, even though I provide plenty of evidence and examples

You also post TRU 2 Form for examples when most know this isn't representative of KUNG FU at all.

[Subitai]

Come on man, it's obvious that I know and have spoken to who was there (not Dixon). I leave you with that. I should apologize for digging at you too personally but you shouldn't call me a neanderthal.


I will agree with you that kung fu has it's problems. But so does any discipline out there.

I do also admit that there are ALLOT of Chalatans out there pretending and bringing it down. Gohring is a perfect example of the BS.

But just because you don't see Youtubes of people (hand over fist) fighting with TMA's, it doesn't mean that some people havn't figured it out.

Which brings me to my point, that if even ONE SINGLE PERSON has used a TMA effectively in a real life situtation....then you can't put down or invalidate it the way you do.

It's really not helping...mabe you're just self promoting ( I can sympathize with that), economy being the way it is.

If you want to improve the state of TMA's I think you should be more positive and cut down on the negative tones. You know, I've always said that San Da is a great tool and effective to supplement traditional Kung fu.

But if you think that Ring Fighting like san da is the ONLY way to USE kung fu effectively...you're dead wrong.

Every time, in any instance that someone used what they learned from a TMA to defend themselves is a victory in my view.

[Lebaufist]

-That you basically "held on" to your opponent for 15mins...and you had students walk out on you after. Once they saw how you can't fight?

It makes sense now. The total about face. The distance he's created between him and his teacher. The rabid hate he seems to have for everyone and anything related to TCMA. This after decades of endless articles in IKF.

Interesting....

Then there's the delusions of grandeur.........thats another thread.

[lkfmdc]

Come on man, it's obvious that I know and have spoken to who was there.



There were 6 people there, two of them were the people who fought, two more were my students. Black Taoist was there. So I'm sure you can figure out the math

My friend, ANYONE who knows me IN THE LEAST, know that my mother is from Virginia, born and raised there, she is a "daughter of the American revolution" ie her family goes back to colonial times in the US, she has NO ACCENT

She also lives in Florida and has never been inside any of the schools I've run

TONS of people know these facts so when you put up your "account" as "truth" you dont' know how funny you sound

Don't listen to gossip, you will think it is truth and say silly things




you shouldn't call me a neanderthal.



NO ONE CALLED YOU A NEANDERTHAL, you really need to read more carefully (and consider more carefully) before you post

I was making reference to Chris Clark calling anyone who does MMA or kickboxing a neanderthal. Chris Clark in that 18 minute video comes off a fool and a rude one at that

JUST LIKE I MAKE A JOKE ABOUT THE POLL AND YOU MISUNDERSTOOD

JUST LIKE YOU DIDN'T GET THE FISHING JOKE

it was a joke, yet you get all serious about it




It's really not helping...mabe you're just self promoting ( I can sympathize with that), economy being the way it is.



I don't come here to "self promote". My business has ZERO to do with "kung fu" and it is very sound. I only come here because I have a personal interest in CMA

And I do think it's sad where it ended up

Read some other recent posts by me, about some very real TCMA stuff, and see people who CLAIM to be kung fu people not getting it AT ALL

[Lebaufist]

Maybe they mistook your wife for your mom?

[bawang]

Black Taoist was there. So I'm sure you can figure out the math


now we know who spread the rumors

[lkfmdc]

now we know who spread the rumors

NO, we know already it was Dixon Fong. His own friends and hing-dai came out and said it. Then the people who were there posted that his wife woudn't let him come and etc etc and he left this forum

Plus, I have actually been pretty friendly with Maoshan and BT since the fight. It was a misunderstanding regarding Li Tai Liang - stuff happens, real men go on with their lives

They came to me in the traditional way, they held to all the traditions, unlike most of the so called kung fu people they do everything the real tradtional way and at least they fight! Ray is critical of them all the time, but they fight.

[Subitai]

YOUR Post #5 of this thread: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61516

Ok fair enough. NOW YOU SPECIFY who it was aimed at. Never heard of Chris Clark. But since I was the Orig. Poster and """ I """ asked the question about fighting in the street, it's easy to see why I thought that.

Jokes??? The tone and the timing of your post was not a joke man... You might as well be Knifefigher with that stuff. You're so frickin' negative all the time how could I possibly take it that way? Post #2 by you... no laugh smilie, no indication of a joke at all.

Nope, not Novell, so who does that leave?



There were 6 people there, two of them were the people who fought, two more were my students. Black Taoist was there. So I'm sure you can figure out the math

My friend, ANYONE who knows me IN THE LEAST, know that my mother is from Virginia, born and raised there, she is a "daughter of the American revolution" ie her family goes back to colonial times in the US, she has NO ACCENT

She also lives in Florida and has never been inside any of the schools I've run

TONS of people know these facts so when you put up your "account" as "truth" you dont' know how funny you sound

Don't listen to gossip, you will think it is truth and say silly things



NO ONE CALLED YOU A NEANDERTHAL, you really need to read more carefully (and consider more carefully) before you post

I was making reference to Chris Clark calling anyone who does MMA or kickboxing a neanderthal. Chris Clark in that 18 minute video comes off a fool and a rude one at that

JUST LIKE I MAKE A JOKE ABOUT THE POLL AND YOU MISUNDERSTOOD

JUST LIKE YOU DIDN'T GET THE FISHING JOKE

it was a joke, yet you get all serious about it



I don't come here to "self promote". My business has ZERO to do with "kung fu" and it is very sound. I only come here because I have a personal interest in CMA

And I do think it's sad where it ended up

Read some other recent posts by me, about some very real TCMA stuff, and see people who CLAIM to be kung fu people not getting it AT ALL

[lkfmdc]

YOUR Post #5 of this thread: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61516



the picture is a screen capture from
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUib86bREx4&feature=relmfu

If you have some spare time that you want to waste, listen to him call everyone who does full contact "neanderthals" in that video

in fact, that would INCLUDE YOU I guess LOL :D

(that is a joke, because you have fought full contact, get it?)




Nope, not Novell, so who does that leave?

Read your PM.

[bawang]

whos dixon fong

[hskwarrior]

Dixon Fong must be more than what you guys are letting on because you're still talking about him. if he is nobody then why mention his name?

[lkfmdc]

Subitai is an ok guy, he was just told something from somone he believed was telling him the truth and so he thought he knew the details

Dixon should be forgotten, he's already lived his 15 minutes of fame (infamy)

[Kansuke]

Screw you on that Comment about me Fishing. Anyone that knows me, also knows that other than teaching and training, Bass Fishing is a personal hobby of mine.



.......................................

[bawang]

is he some chinatown banana, i really dont know who he is

[lkfmdc]

Let him be kansuke, he's a good guy who got bad info. So he took it personal for a minute, but it's all cool now man,

the internet isn't serious anyway, you should know that

[Subitai]

Let him be kansuke, he's a good guy who got bad info. So he took it personal for a minute, but it's all cool now man,

the internet isn't serious anyway, you should know that



Yeah, and since it's not serious around here, Kansuke will understand if he's nothing but a Pu$$y who hides behind a psuedonym. :D:D:D

[Kansuke]

Let him be kansuke, he's a good guy who got bad info. So he took it personal for a minute, but it's all cool now man,

the internet isn't serious anyway, you should know that



That last part is true enough, but I don't see the "he's a good guy" in his presentation thus far. But, you may be right and if you two have settled your beef it's none of my business.

[Kansuke]

Yeah, and since it's not serious around here, Kansuke will understand if he's nothing but a Pu$$y who hides behind a psuedonym. :D:D:D



Shouldn't you be out fishing for your next girlfriend?

[Snipsky]

That last part is true enough, but I don't see the "he's a good guy" in his presentation thus far. But, you may be right and if you two have settled your beef it's none of my business.

oooooh boy :rolleyes:

[bawang]

whats going on im scare

[Kansuke]

oooooh boy :rolleyes:

Do you get a good internet connection inside that wet paper bag, champ?

[lkfmdc]

whats going on im scare

Real men can argue and/or fight (and with hot tempers do a lot) but then they can go on with their lives

Guys beat the crap out of each other and then shake hands and are good friends, that is the way fighting is. That is the way kung fu was in the "old days"

It's always the guy in the corner, or the third row, who talks crap and gets it wrong

[Snipsky]

Do you get a good internet connection inside that wet paper bag, champ?

OMG dude, you're sound so cool when you say Champ. LOL what a Chump. :rolleyes:

ps. how many times have you used that tired ol' cliche you use?

[bawang]

when mma guys confront kung fu people, they always point to sanda as proof kung fu works. when mma guy leaves they do a 360 and say sanda isnt real kung fu. i dont get it.

Real men can argue and/or fight (and with hot tempers do a lot) but then they can go on with their lives

Guys beat the crap out of each other and then shake hands and are good friends, that is the way fighting is. That is the way kung fu was in the "old days"

It's always the guy in the corner, or the third row, who talks crap and gets it wrong

that makes sense

[Scott R. Brown]

I love all you guys MAN....even though you are all pu$$ies and I am the only REAL MAN here!

[lkfmdc]

when mma guys confront kung fu people, they always point to sanda as proof kung fu works. when mma guy leaves they do a 360 and say sanda isnt real kung fu. i dont get it.



it's another mystery for the ages LOL

[lkfmdc]

Real men can argue and/or fight (and with hot tempers do a lot) but then they can go on with their lives

Guys beat the crap out of each other and then shake hands and are good friends, that is the way fighting is. That is the way kung fu was in the "old days"

It's always the guy in the corner, or the third row, who talks crap and gets it wrong

you know what, this is another reason why stuff like tru-2-form and point sparring are BS

I remember back in the day in the parking lot guys who had just done point sparring saying "yeah, but in a REAL fight I would have....."

No one after a kickboxing, san da, sanshou, muay thai or MMA fight says "but in a real fight I would have done..." Because if you could have done it you WOULD HAVE DONE IT

You don't have to hold back for fear of being DQ'ed or "hurting" the other guy. That is what it is about.

It's honest, that is the word, HONEST

All the non contact stuff is is NOT honest

[Dragonzbane76]

you know what, this is another reason why stuff like tru-2-form and point sparring are BS

I remember back in the day in the parking lot guys who had just done point sparring saying "yeah, but in a REAL fight I would have....."

No one after a kickboxing, san da, sanshou, muay thai or MMA fight says "but in a real fight I would have done..." Because if you could have done it you WOULD HAVE DONE IT

You don't have to hold back for fear of being DQ'ed or "hurting" the other guy. That is what it is about.

It's honest, that is the word, HONEST

All the non contact stuff is is NOT honest

now don't hold anything back now ross. :) get it all out of your system.

[Lebaufist]

Yeah, and since it's not serious around here, Kansuke will understand if he's nothing but a Pu$$y who hides behind a psuedonym. :D:D:DI just took a stroll down kansuke 's post history. For the life of me I can't see why he's allowed here. I guess I'm actually going to use the ignore feature.

[Lebaufist]

you know what, this is another reason why stuff like tru-2-form and point sparring are BS


Is anybody here really arguing for them? Its a bit quixotic.

[Kansuke]

I just took a stroll down kansuke 's post history. For the life of me I can't see why he's allowed here. I guess I'm actually going to use the ignore feature.



Good luck with that.

[Kansuke]

OMG dude, you're sound so cool when you say Champ.


Thanks, champ.