How hard are the requeriments on your Kung Fu Programm ?

[facaodotigre]

How hard are the requeriments on your Kung Fu Programm ?

I want to ask to instructors and students about how many forms do you think is immportant an student need to memorize before he can star to learn new forms?

In large styles like Northern Shaolin or Praying Mantis with a large number of forms and weapons how do you work ? Do you teach 10 forms and push your students to memorize all them or do you only focus on the forms your student is learning right now and you don't push him to keep and memorize the previous forms learning years ago ?


thank you

[bawang]

kung fu is ont tuff enuf.

not only you need promotion, you need demotion. win a fight promote one level. lose a fight demote one level. lose too many fight beat with stick 40 timesand kick out of school

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I teach one form, at the end of a unit. That form has all the techniques I had been teaching up untill that point. The student does not get the form, untill he shows me he is competent with the techniques it contains.

My first level takes 9 to 18 months to complete. Each level after that is about the same.

I got rid of all my forms, except for the few that are somehow connected to Zhao Kuang Yin (Sung Tai Tzu), and instead decided to put all my focus on the usage of thier techniques.

I figure I could teach the whole thing in 8 to 10 years. The student would only have a hand full of forms though.

After that, I hope I will be competent enough to start teaching Kuntao Silat. At that point, I may drop more Kung Fu forms, and only teach 3.

[Snipsky]

Kong Poo is definitely TOUGH ENUFF. its the people behind KONG POO.

kong poo is the best. now what?

[facaodotigre]

RD'S Alias - 1A :

But when you do an examination to one of your students about third level , do you require him to show levels 1 and 2 ? or you only ask him to perform third level only.
My point is about when do you start with intermediate or more advanced forms is really hard memorize aldo basic forms.

Thank you

[SPJ]

It is not so much about how many moves or forms you learn to remember.

It is about how well you know each move.

In xing yi, ww may have to practice just one palm for 3 to 5 months.

In 6 harmony mantis, there are only a fewforms.

We used to practice beng bu in mei hua tang lang for 15months.

It is always about quality more so than quantities.

[YouKnowWho]

how many forms do you think is immportant an student need to memorize before he can star to learn new forms?
I don't teach forms (I know more than 50 forms) so there is no "how many forms" and "new forms" issues. I told my students that the day that they no longer compete in tournaments, they will have the rest of their life to learn forms "if they want to". Until then, they need to concentrate on combat skill development and testing.

[-N-]

How hard are the requeriments on your Kung Fu Programm ?

Very hard. But what does that have to do with forms?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD'S Alias - 1A :

But when you do an examination to one of your students about third level , do you require him to show levels 1 and 2 ? or you only ask him to perform third level only.
My point is about when do you start with intermediate or more advanced forms is really hard memorize aldo basic forms.

Thank you

The forms are the last thing I teach. I teach them more as body mechanics training, and to catalog thier techniques for each level. They are not officially on the testing. They are more like a certificate of completion for that level.

Level one has the basic form. Level 2 the intermediate, and level 3 the advanced.

I also have Qigongs that go with each level too.

My 'basic fundamentals, and physical preparation' consists of foot work drills, entry skills, common Songshan Shaolin kicking and punching drills, application practice, stalking and targeting drills, free sparring, Structure and mechanics training, as well as conditioning and flexibility training.

I have several modules. The first is centered around applications of the first form. The second is a stripped down, simple kick boxing method, third is basic Chin na, and the last is very basic Shuai Jiao (mostly the falls, and simple throws, like stuff off of Diagonal Cut, hip throws, and a couple turning throws)

The next level adds to the catalog of techniques. These are found in the next form, but is more concerned with improving skill levels with the material, rather than just learning more 'Stuff'

The third level is built on the softest form in my system and it designed to develop the internal skills to proficiency so they can be applied to the previously learned material. This level has 32 internal drills, push hands, and advanced Qi Gong.

There are a few more forms, but they are just there to add more apps to the over all catalog. I teach them one technique at a time, and only the form when the apps are understood.

I also have a number of Tai Tzu sets with questionable heritage (meaning they are probably not tied direct to Zhao Kunag Yin) that I picked up off of video. I probably won't teach those ever, but I randomly play with possible apps from various segments of them. The set I stole from footage of John Wang in competition is one of these sets I won't teach.

[ginosifu]

Is your question about how many forms is in your curriculum? Are you asking how hard is it to get to Black Sash / Belt? Are you asking how hard is to complete a system like Northern Shaolin?

Eample:

Northern Shaolin has over 50 forms in it. There are the 10 core forms and dozens of weapons and 2 person etc. You need all 10 core forms and a certain amount of the weapons and 2 persons to actually say you have completed NS.

Our Northern Shaolin Black Belt program takes about 3-4 years and has only 2 forms: Lian Bu Quan and Gong Li Quan, the rest is basics, fighting and self defense techniques. For those who wish to persue a career in Kung Fu or a more indepth knowledge of NS or complete the system, this is where would start.

How hard is the curriculum? How many forms does not really state how hard the curriculum is. I would consider "How hard the curriculum" as How hard do you push the students? How much fighting do they do? How hard is your Strength and Conditioning program?

Facaodotigre
Please elaborate more on what you mean by Hard?

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

I teach 5 forms to allow the students to understand how to MOVE correctly, then I teach them the applications so they can USE them correctly.

Every technique in mantis can be found within those 5 core forms.
Everything else is just collecting. remember a form with no application learned is like a egg that has no yolk. useless

[Taixuquan99]

1 long form.

However, depending on the student, I may not even teach them the form for quite some time. A lot of times, since most of the training time is spent doing tuishou and drills, students "steal" moves that are working against them. I encourage this, and share what I know about using the move. Then, if they decide to learn the form, that particular step, wherever it occurs, will be a no-brainer to learn.

For some students, I teach them the form earlier, and this gives them a large set of moves they can work on in tuishou and drills at their leisure.

The classes are hard in the exhausting sense of the word, I suppose. A lot of grip training during tuishou and drills, so people's hands and forearms tend to be sore the next day, a lot of grappling, so people's core and legs tend to get worn out. Currently, I'm planning on working in a segment of drills that involve a lot more kicks and deep stances: these drills work along the idea of one person giving low-line to medium line kicks, but having two options, like either a roundhouse or a teep, while their partner is trying to either stop the roundhouse with a well angled shin, or scoop the other kick, but, since they don't know what kick is coming, they have to work spontaneously working each move. Another drill along the same lines is the kicker either lead leg kicks or rear leg kicks(both thrust), and their partner does the appropriate move from the system to deal with this. Three minute rounds, non-set footwork, et al. We already do a good amount of drills involving ankle picks and such, with the focus on getting low but stable and fluid.

I find that partnered drills are far more exhausting and challenging than form work, though I espouse focused form work for honing and theorizing on body mechanics, but it must be informed by partnered work. To me, form is your personal notes, but not your personal notes on form.

As for my form work, that's different. The form I do is generally trained three ways, slow, slow with fajing, and fast with fajing. My current training is in speeding up the third to breakneck speed, using it as an interval, form slow, then fast to the point of failure, then slow, then fast. Comes in at maybe 25 minutes. I don't tend to spend more time than that on form, favoring quality over quantity.

[David Jamieson]

I am in a position to either teach forms or not.
Some people aren't interested in form, so, I'll get them going with:

cardio / resistance(weights)/ drills, bag work, mitt work and light sparring.
pretty typical kb regimen.

If they want to grapple, I send them out to someone else. I have neither the facilities or the breadth and depth of knowledge to transmit a full course of understanding so that's why I send em out.

If someone wants to learn forms and classical weapons and iron skills, they can get that too!

the interesting part and useful part is being able to service different types of students.

My partner and I are completely informal and cut away that as quick as we can and make it clear that we're all in it together, lets train and when there is faltering or lack of clarity, we work towards getting up going on and making it clear.

Inside of a year, you can instill a lot of confidence in a person who had little coming in the door. Inside of two years, you can reasonably expect that person to be able to physically handle themselves in most situations they will find themselves in on average.

If they stay and train with you, it's to continue the track of training. Law of diminishing returns kicks in after about 3-5 years depending on the students adeptness.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The reason I teach forms at the end of a unit, is that the student has no way of knowing how to do each move correctly untill they have done it a zillion times with a partner. Teaching them the form before that is counter productive.

[Mas Judt]

So hard you could take a hundred Viagra and never be as hard as my standards.

[David Jamieson]

So hard you could take a hundred Viagra and never be as hard as my standards.

so if you're still practicing after 4 hours you should call a doctor? :p

[facaodotigre]

Hello


Sorry for not explain very well my question.
I know on all traditional schools instructors teach more stuff , not only forms.
My question is if do you see after teach 8 or 10 forms to your student if he start to have problems to memorize all forms and he start to confuse movements. What you do then ? Because if you agreed to teach new forms maybe this student forget forever basic forms. My question is how do you fixed to encourage your student to work on new forms without lose the old ones ?


Thank You

[David Jamieson]

Hello


Sorry for not explain very well my question.
I know on all traditional schools instructors teach more stuff , not only forms.
My question is if do you see after teach 8 or 10 forms to your student if he start to have problems to memorize all forms and he start to confuse movements. What you do then ? Because if you agreed to teach new forms maybe this student forget forever basic forms. My question is how do you fixed to encourage your student to work on new forms without lose the old ones ?


Thank You

If this happens, in my opinion you probably shouldn't be teaching anyone anything.
A person in a forms curriculum shouldn't be learning anything before he has mastered what has been shown. Period.

3 moves 5 moves, 10 moves at a time, but each must be executed textbook before getting the next.

that way, there is no confusion, no forgetting, no fast tracking etc. YOu either learn them properly or not at all is my way of doing it.

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/WmVjM.gif

[SPJ]

Hello


Sorry for not explain very well my question.
I know on all traditional schools instructors teach more stuff , not only forms.
My question is if do you see after teach 8 or 10 forms to your student if he start to have problems to memorize all forms and he start to confuse movements. What you do then ? Because if you agreed to teach new forms maybe this student forget forever basic forms. My question is how do you fixed to encourage your student to work on new forms without lose the old ones ?


Thank You

basic basic basic

from day one to day forever or when ever.

I was taught this way. practice your basic or core moves at all time.

intermediate and advance moves or forms are optional.

the basic is your bread and butter.

mastering the basic every day is your gong and your fu.

why

b/c if your basic is no good or for goodness sake, forgotten.

intermediate and advance stuff are based upon your basic or derivative from your basic.

no good foundation, no sky scraper

--

no basic no gong no fu.

so beng bu from day one to day N + 1.

--

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

how do you fixed to encourage your student to work on new forms without lose the old ones ?

After you have learned a form, you record it on video tape, you don't have to train it any more.

Forms are designed for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not designed for "training".

[Dragonzbane76]

3 moves 5 moves, 10 moves at a time, but each must be executed textbook before getting the next.

that way, there is no confusion, no forgetting, no fast tracking etc. YOu either learn them properly or not at all is my way of doing it.

pretty much how i learned my early forms but as you advance I think youknowwho's approach works as well. a lot of forms tend to repeat other movements from other forms and once you have the basics down pat and muscle memorized I think you can learn a new one through a more modern approach. my opinion though.

[David Jamieson]

As you advance, forms should be thrown out the window and work on principles begins.

stay in tune however you like, but forms are for your basic understanding of your own body, it's weakness and it's strengths, structure, mobility, explosiveness etc.

Forms are a transitional part of learning, they are the alphabet but they are not the book you could write once you know your alphabet, how to create sentences, then paragraphs and finally, a novel.

Forms are a mnemonic device, a learning tool. they are not the meat of the style, they are the knife and fork.

[YouKnowWho]

This was the 1st English lesson that I had when I was in my 7th grade.

"Book, this is a book. Chalk, this is a chalk. What do I do with book? What do I do with chalk".

If we consider this as a form, it contains the following 6 parts:

1. Book,
2. This is a book.
3. Chalk,
4. This is a chalk.
5. What do I do with book?
6. What do I do with chalk?

Please notice that those 6 parts have no connection among each other. If you repeat the whole form 10 times, or repeat part 1 10 times, part 2 10 times, ..., and part 6 10 times, you will get the same benefit. The moment that you have divided your form into parts, you no longer need that form any more. The reason is simple. No matter how you will reconstruct those 6 parts, the final form will contain exactly the same amount of information.

Through the form, besides you can learn words (techniques), you also can learn grammer (principles) such as

- This is a ...
- What do I do with ...?

[Taixuquan99]

It's a piece of chalk.

(I am so happy to get to correct a Chinese person on not using the right measure word.):D

[YouKnowWho]

It's a piece of chalk.

(I am so happy to get to correct a Chinese person on not using the right measure word.):D

I swear to God that "This is a chalk." was the exactly words in my 1st English book. May be "It's a piece of chalk." just a bit too advanced for the "1st lesson" of English.

[SPJ]

It's a piece of chalk.

(I am so happy to get to correct a Chinese person on not using the right measure word.):D

yes you are correct.

my german/french lesson also started with

das buch

das ist ein buch.

livre

c'est --

---

I hated articles, english is so much easier

der die das

le la---

--

[David Jamieson]

German/French lessons? who was your teacher? Was it Satan? :p

[Taixuquan99]

I swear to God that "This is a chalk." was the exactly words in my 1st English book. May be "It's a piece of chalk." just a bit too advanced for the "1st lesson" of English.

I'm just kidding you, it's revenge for being corrected by my Chinese friends for using the wrong measure word in Chinese.

[Dragonzbane76]

As you advance, forms should be thrown out the window and work on principles begins.

stay in tune however you like, but forms are for your basic understanding of your own body, it's weakness and it's strengths, structure, mobility, explosiveness etc.


agree, I was speaking of the beginning in my response though, And that later on down the road when you wanted maybe to learn a new form say from another system then you could do as Youknowwho suggested. Something along those lines.

[mooyingmantis]

How hard are the requeriments on your Kung Fu Programm ?

I want to ask to instructors and students about how many forms do you think is immportant an student need to memorize before he can star to learn new forms?

In large styles like Northern Shaolin or Praying Mantis with a large number of forms and weapons how do you work ? Do you teach 10 forms and push your students to memorize all them or do you only focus on the forms your student is learning right now and you don't push him to keep and memorize the previous forms learning years ago ?


thank you

My Northern Praying Mantis instructor said we should practice a form 1000 times before expecting to learn a new one. He emphasized quality rather than quantity of forms.

I choose to teach less than five mantis forms.

Theories/strategies from each form are extracted and taught.

Students drill every combination from every form as they study the form. Drills are done on the wooden dummy, BOB, focus mitts and a training partner. Combinations are expected to be worked into the sparring session in each class.

After one form is thoroughly trained in the above methods, a new form is introduced and trained the same way.

Students are expected to remember every form (and its quan pu) and be able to perform it whenever asked, regardless of how long ago the form was taught in class.

[SPJ]

forms are like a menu in a restaurant.

we only pick a few to practice (make a meal)

we do not eat everything on the menu/

--

[SPJ]

there are many ways to remember the forms

1. recite the name of posture as if a poem

2. sing the name of the posture as if a song

or just use cue cards.

--

the best way is to recite the name of the posture, every time you do the moves.

so if you practice 1000 times, you would recite the name of postures 1000 times.

then how could you forget.

---

[SPJ]

German/French lessons? who was your teacher? Was it Satan? :p

yes. actually my german teacher was a catholic missionary from austria. he lived most of his life in taiwan, he spoke mandarin, haka, amoy (taiwanese) dialects.

my french teacher was---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iedSaZfVGQw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2ayEbC1oo&feature=related

this canadian sings chinese. wow.

:)

[EarthDragon]

My question is how do you fixed to encourage your student to work on new forms without lose the old ones


PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.. its very simple

[Dark Chi]

Kong Poo is definitely TOUGH ENUFF. its the people behind KONG POO.

kong poo is the best. now what?

Yes I agree you can talk..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Wb52XXmts

Low level practitioners need not apply LOL