History Question for Joy

[HumbleWCGuy]

Joy, do you follow any of the various historical accounts of WC that are passed down by various lineages and organizations?

What is your evaluation of the quality of the historical analyses that have been conducted by various WC practitioners? Which accounts are the most believable? My personal opinion has always been that most of it has been made up for political purposes. I am not calling a person a liar, because I have always assumed that they may just be repeating a lie that started several generations ago.

I have always assumed that it is all made up to some extent or another which is something that I am comfortable with. Should I be less skeptical?

[Vajramusti]

Joy, do you follow any of the various historical accounts of WC that are passed down by various lineages and organizations?

What is your evaluation of the quality of the historical analyses that have been conducted by various WC practitioners? Which accounts are the most believable? My personal opinion has always been that most of it has been made up for political purposes. I am not calling a person a liar, because I have always assumed that they may just be repeating a lie that started several generations ago.

I have always assumed that it is all made up to some extent or another which is something that I am comfortable with. Should I be less skeptical?
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Why ask me? In any case-since you asked- I have not seen a "history" of wing chun that would pass peer review standards of scholarship. But myths can give helpful insights into an art, into understanding behavior and social systems. So I try to understand myths.
The myths of Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, snake and crane, can be instructive in understanding
feminine power rather than muscle power, straight stance and coiling energy, Buddhist/Taoist influences on energy usage and flow, Confucian organization- sifu, sihing, si dai, sigung, sijo, etc. Scholarly books on Ming penetration in the south can give some ideas on rebel groups.
Going past Leung Jan you are in the world of speculation and interpretation.
But that does not bother me..major complex skills are not developed overnight- so as in many other fields we can stand on the shoulders of giants when we grasp a skill..You sift and sift and occasionally you find a treasure.Myths, theories, concepts can point to treasures that have to be polished with practice and experience.
But to date there is no satisfactory history of wing chun despite claims and salesmanship to the contrary.

joy chaudhuri

[nasmedicine]

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why ask me? In any case-since you asked- i have not seen a "history" of wing chun that would pass peer review standards of scholarship. But myths can give helpful insights into an art, into understanding behavior and social systems. So i try to understand myths.
The myths of ng mui, yim wing chun, snake and crane, can be instructive in understanding
feminine power rather than muscle power, straight stance and coiling energy, buddhist/taoist influences on energy usage and flow, confucian organization- sifu, sihing, si dai, sigung, sijo, etc. Scholarly books on ming penetration in the south can give some ideas on rebel groups.
Going past leung jan you are in the world of speculation and interpretation.
But that does not bother me..major complex skills are not developed overnight- so as in many other fields we can stand on the shoulders of giants when we grasp a skill..you sift and sift and occasionally you find a treasure.myths, theories, concepts can point to treasures that have to be polished with practice and experience.
But to date there is no satisfactory history of wing chun despite claims and salesmanship to the contrary.

Joy chaudhuri

qfe .

[HumbleWCGuy]

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Why ask me?

joy chaudhuri

Because you are a history professor and I wanted a scholarly answer which is what I got.

[Vajramusti]

Because you are a history professor and I wanted a scholarly answer which is what I got.
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Fields:Philosophy & Comaparative Politics (Political Science),
American Indian Studies.
Emeritus
ex- associate Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences,
Arizona State University.
ex- director of Center for Asian Studies
Tenured professor in several other universities
prior to joining Arizona Sate.

no big deal-

in kung fu
Sifu-Tempe Wing Chun- is enough.

[HumbleWCGuy]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fields:Philosophy & Comaparative Politics (Political Science),
American Indian Studies.
Emeritus
ex- associate Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences,
Arizona State University.
ex- director of Center for Asian Studies
Tenured professor in several other universities
prior to joining Arizona Sate.

no big deal-

in kung fu
Sifu-Tempe Wing Chun- is enough.
I understand. I guess that I just wanted your general sense of the state of the WC-history research. I understand that you don't conduct research in that area, but I value your opinion because you have conducted peer-reviewed historical research which is more than any WC historian can say that I am aware of. Plus, I figured that you would be able to give us a lens through which to view these legends that would be of value. You did not disappoint.

[Vajramusti]

I understand. I guess that I just wanted your general sense of the state of the WC-history research. I understand that you don't conduct research in that area, but I value your opinion because you have conducted peer-reviewed historical research which is more than any WC historian can say that I am aware of. Plus, I figured that you would be able to give us a lens through which to view these legends that would be of value. You did not disappoint.
---Thx and cheers. Wing chun is my love and game.

joy chaudhuri

[altbus1]

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Why ask me? In any case-since you asked- I have not seen a "history" of wing chun that would pass peer review standards of scholarship. But myths can give helpful insights into an art, into understanding behavior and social systems. So I try to understand myths.
The myths of Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, snake and crane, can be instructive in understanding
feminine power rather than muscle power, straight stance and coiling energy, Buddhist/Taoist influences on energy usage and flow, Confucian organization- sifu, sihing, si dai, sigung, sijo, etc. Scholarly books on Ming penetration in the south can give some ideas on rebel groups.
Going past Leung Jan you are in the world of speculation and interpretation.
But that does not bother me..major complex skills are not developed overnight- so as in many other fields we can stand on the shoulders of giants when we grasp a skill..You sift and sift and occasionally you find a treasure.Myths, theories, concepts can point to treasures that have to be polished with practice and experience.
But to date there is no satisfactory history of wing chun despite claims and salesmanship to the contrary.

joy chaudhuri
This one was nice to read.
Thanks :)

[ntc]

Very nice post, Joy.

[Vajramusti]

Very nice post, Joy.
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Thanks ntc.
best wishes, joy

[Sean66]

I'll second that. Very nice read!

[imperialtaichi]

My teacher speculated that Yim Wing Chun may actually be a Shaolin Monk called Tan Sau Ng pretending to be a woman to escape prosecution. He made the conclusion based on legends, political situations at the time and evolution of techniques.

Of course, it was just a half joking tongue in cheek speculation.

[Grumblegeezer]

From the little bit I've been able to find out, there is some evidence that there was such a person as "Tan-Sau" Ng, and that he was involved in martial arts. There is not much known about him and nothing to connect him with Wing Chun. His nickname "tan sau" is said to be because he passed himself off as a beggar. You know... putting the old palm out for a handout. Who can say?

I'm with Joy on this. Before the time of Leung Jan, it's all oral tradition... that is to say folk tales and speculation.

[Vajramusti]

From the little bit I've been able to find out, there is some evidence that there was such a person as "Tan-Sau" Ng, and that he was involved in martial arts. There is not much known about him and nothing to connect him with Wing Chun. His nickname "tan sau" is said to be because he passed himself off as a beggar. You know... putting the old palm out for a handout. Who can say?

I'm with Joy on this. Before the time of Leung Jan, it's all oral tradition... that is to say folk tales and speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------- Are we sure that there was nota bong sao moe
who started it all after chi sao with Larry and Curly?

joy

[JamesC]

Joy,

Just as an aside, I saw that one of your fields is American Indian studies and I noticed that your avatar is a gun stock club.

Is there a link you can give me to learn some info about the history and usage of that weapon? I've always been curious about it.

Thanks.

[Wayfaring]

------------------------------------------------------------- Are we sure that there was nota bong sao moe
who started it all after chi sao with Larry and Curly?

joy

No. Absolutely not. Historical references point to the following:

Mun Sau Moe
Lap Sau Larry

and the infamous

Chi Sau Curly who introduced the practice of chi sau into modern training after amazing insight following his debilitating stroke in 1946. He passed this information secretly down to his successor Curly Joe DeRita who cemented into oral and video tradition in the 1950's.

[Vajramusti]

No. Absolutely not. Historical references point to the following:

Mun Sau Moe
Lap Sau Larry

and the infamous

Chi Sau Curly who introduced the practice of chi sau into modern training after amazing insight following his debilitating stroke in 1946. He passed this information secretly down to his successor Curly Joe DeRita who cemented into oral and video tradition in the 1950's.
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Wow- you have the history pegged!

joy chaudhuri

[WingChunABQ]

No. Absolutely not. Historical references point to the following:

Mun Sau Moe
Lap Sau Larry

and the infamous

Chi Sau Curly who introduced the practice of chi sau into modern training after amazing insight following his debilitating stroke in 1946. He passed this information secretly down to his successor Curly Joe DeRita who cemented into oral and video tradition in the 1950's.

Legend has it that Mun Sao Moe was deadly with his Cream Pie technique, leaving opponents faces totally obscured after its application. Some sifus relate that this is the origin of the tan sao, which translates roughly as "Pie Pan Carrying Hand"

[Lee Chiang Po]

Tan Sao Ng was actually Ng Mui. He was a monk and he was a begger. However, his Wing Chun system was built around the Tan Sao concept. He did other things, but this was the emphisis of his Wing Chun. Thus, Tan Sao Ng. I believe he was the first Chunner. I believe that Wing Chun of today came directly from his Tan Sao concept of fighting. Yim Wing Chun and all the others I would not speculate on. I think his system became much improved upon by the acrobats of the Red Boat Opra. Lots of secret societies adopted the fighting system, and this is how my father became involved with it. It was not in it's entirety, and it has picked up things hear and there that actually did improve upon it's efficiency. I think that Tan Sao being a woman might have just been speculation due to the nature of the system in and of itself.

That is my story, and I am sticking to it. Actually, I was told this about 55 years ago.

[anerlich]

I have not seen a "history" of wing chun that would pass peer review standards of scholarship.

Nail on the head.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

Just as an aside, I saw that one of your fields is American Indian studies and I noticed that your avatar is a gun stock club.

Is there a link you can give me to learn some info about the history and usage of that weapon? I've always been curious about it.

Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Gun stock clubs appeared frequently among Nprthern Plains tribes.

[JPinAZ]

Tan Sao Ng was actually Ng Mui. He was a monk and he was a begger. However, his Wing Chun system was built around the Tan Sao concept. He did other things, but this was the emphisis of his Wing Chun. Thus, Tan Sao Ng. I believe he was the first Chunner. I believe that Wing Chun of today came directly from his Tan Sao concept of fighting. Yim Wing Chun and all the others I would not speculate on. I think his system became much improved upon by the acrobats of the Red Boat Opra. Lots of secret societies adopted the fighting system, and this is how my father became involved with it. It was not in it's entirety, and it has picked up things hear and there that actually did improve upon it's efficiency. I think that Tan Sao being a woman might have just been speculation due to the nature of the system in and of itself.

That is my story, and I am sticking to it. Actually, I was told this about 55 years ago.

Interesting and thanks for sharing!
Here is some feedback from a recent workshop regarding our understanding of Tan Sao Ng based on Hung Fa Yi's history regarding his connections to WCK, as well as his involvment in both the Red Boat Society (and thru Wong Wah Bo) and Boxer Society (and thru Hung Gun Biu):

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20819#post20819

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20792#post20792

[Lee Chiang Po]

Interesting and thanks for sharing!
Here is some feedback from a recent workshop regarding our understanding of Tan Sao Ng based on Hung Fa Yi's history regarding his connections to WCK, as well as his involvment in both the Red Boat Society (and thru Wong Wah Bo) and Boxer Society (and thru Hung Gun Biu):

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20819#post20819

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3214&p=20792#post20792

The lineage of which my own wing chun comes from is called Hung Fa, and is said to be descended from Hung Gun. My dad always just called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. I had no idea that there were so many different lineages of Wing Chun in the world until I found this forum while looking at the Kung Fu magazine site some time back. I thought that mine was of the only lineage.

[JPinAZ]

Yeah, I remember being quite suprised to hear this information when you first started posting here - very cool! Curious, do you know where and from whom your father learned his WC from? (I can't remember if you had mentioned this before or not)
---
As far as HFY's history regarding Taan Sau Ng, the reason for '5' in his name was in reference to how he could describe/represent all of the primary WC concepts/principles through use of his (5) taan saus.

In HFY WCK, we have a whole training platform focusing specifically on these 5 taan saus, which are further divided into 3 taan 'saus' (1 for centerline, 2 for Shoulder/5-line), and 2 that are actually tan 'kius' (for inner/outer gate ranges). Depending on application, these '5 taan saus' express the following main concepts:
Centerline
Half point & 2-line defense concepts
Box & Gate theories
Doi ying/joi ying energy concepts
And in general, the represnt HFY's Time/Space/Energy concept.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yeah, I remember being quite suprised to hear this information when you first started posting here - very cool! Curious, do you know where and from whom your father learned his WC from? (I can't remember if you had mentioned this before or not)
---
As far as HFY's history regarding Taan Sau Ng, the reason for '5' in his name was in reference to how he could describe/represent all of the primary WC concepts/principles through use of his (5) taan saus.

In HFY WCK, we have a whole training platform focusing specifically on these 5 taan saus, which are further divided into 3 taan 'saus' (1 for centerline, 2 for Shoulder/5-line), and 2 that are actually tan 'kius' (for inner/outer gate ranges). Depending on application, these '5 taan saus' express the following main concepts:
Centerline
Half point & 2-line defense concepts
Box & Gate theories
Doi ying/joi ying energy concepts
And in general, the represnt HFY's Time/Space/Energy concept.


If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.

[Savi]

I'm intrigued, Lee Chiang Po! From what I have learned of my kung fu family's history our 4th generation inheritor Hung Gun Biu Tong Zyu was the leader of the Hung Gun Wui during the mid 1850's. According to our history, he taught combat methods to his men which at the time he referred to as Hung Fa Kuen. During the 1870's, upon his retirement he bestowed the name of his family art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.