Chi sao only works when...

[SavvySavage]

Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don't chi sao or don't do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.

There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don't work well against someone who doesn't know the rules.

Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don't transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I'm nOt saying they can't be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.

For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn't work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.

[Eric_H]

Hello SavvySavage,

If you are referring specifically to double handed Taan/Bong/Fook style of chi sao, then I would agree that it's application is very limited.

However, there are many different categories of chi sao which address different pieces of combat. Ergo I cannot say that Chi Sao as a whole only works on people who know how to do it. I have already proven otherwise in my own training.

[SavvySavage]

Hello SavvySavage,

If you are referring specifically to double handed Taan/Bong/Fook style of chi sao, then I would agree that it's application is very limited.

However, there are many different categories of chi sao which address different pieces of combat. Ergo I cannot say that Chi Sao as a whole only works on people who know how to do it. I have already proven otherwise in my own training.

When I say chi sao I'm referring to any drill where you start off already connected and try to engage in flowing.

[Eric_H]

I think I can see where you are coming from.

Engagement is a big part of Wing Chun, certain engagements require certain responses, chi sao is not always one of the correct ones.

In HFY our mindset is one of going for hitting first, only sticking when we have to. Really, it's more on the opponent to put us somewhere we have to stick, and if he doesn't, no chi sao necessary.

[SavvySavage]

I think I can see where you are coming from.

Engagement is a big part of Wing Chun, certain engagements require certain responses, chi sao is not always one of the correct ones.

In HFY our mindset is one of going for hitting first, only sticking when we have to. Really, it's more on the opponent to put us somewhere we have to stick, and if he doesn't, no chi sao necessary.

So are you saying you strike repeatedly until presented with a reason to use a wc parry? That's a sound philosophy if that's what you're getting at.

[k gledhill]

The chi sao isnt how we fight, your right it doesnt work, its a drill for sparring/fighting.

[SavvySavage]

The chi sao isnt how we fight, your right it doesnt work as the drill for sparring/figjting.

If the specific skills such as threading only work when the other guy is holding his arm out, like in chi sao, does that mean chi sao type drills don't need to be trained at all?

[sihing]

Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can't chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?

Chi sau is a way to introduce the WC ideas of being more efficient, simple and direct with our movements in a fight, rather than leaning stylized movements that are so unnatural that they would never work in a fight. You don't fight using WC, rather you train in the system so that you can move/fight more effectively in fight.

This took me a long time to realize and it's a different way of thinking regarding fight training. It's more so for the average joe and not speacialized fighters that are doing it for a living where more tools are needed and skill levels are way higher.

James

[SavvySavage]

Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can't chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?

Chi sau is a way to introduce the WC ideas of being more efficient, simple and direct with our movements in a fight, rather than leaning stylized movements that are so unnatural that they would never work in a fight. You don't fight using WC, rather you train in the system so that you can move/fight more effectively in fight.

This took me a long time to realize and it's a different way of thinking regarding fight training. It's more so for the average joe and not speacialized fighters that are doing it for a living where more tools are needed and skill levels are way higher.

James


Interesting assessment. I happen to agree that is if we're talking about the same thing. This is what I hear you saying. Do chi sao, forms, weapons training...and not worry what it looks like. Don't worry if you don't use wu sao, tan, fool, bong...and just kick butt?

Is that what you're saying?

[WC1277]

Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don't chi sao or don't do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.

There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don't work well against someone who doesn't know the rules.

Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don't transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I'm nOt saying they can't be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.

For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn't work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.

I'll try to word this one better so I don't get jumped all over again....

For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all "Chi Sao" starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it's English translation. At very high level skill and ultimately the end goal of Chi Sao is what is called the glass technique. It's where as if the opponent is looking through a piece of glass, feels no contact on his arms and only feels punches to his body. The practitioner essentially can sense the opponents movement so well that he sees the open lines without having to create them. There's a saying within our system that if a bullet travels a mile, as long as you're a mile and an inch away you're fine. Now whether people want to believe me or not, Chi Sao can, when done right, develop your awareness of both intent and distance of an opponent. Fong Sifu has talked about how touch isn't necessary to "feel" the opponents intention, but it is through touch that we develop the awareness. Chi Sao is not how one fights, but good Chi Sao shows you the way on how to fight....

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I'll try to word this one better so I don't get jumped all over again....

For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all "Chi Sao" starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it's English translation.
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Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don't know how to compare pov's systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.

Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.

Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.

I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun... wing chun has been a different world ... chi sao making things so much easier.

Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.

I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham's law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.

joy chaudhuri

[SavvySavage]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I'll try to word this one better so I don't get jumped all over again....

For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all "Chi Sao" starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it's English translation.
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Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don't know how to compare pov's systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.

Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.

Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.

I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun... wing chun has been a different world ... chi sao making things so much easier.

Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.

I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham's law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.

joy chaudhuri


No. Sparring is the master lab of wc training. Chi sao is the training wheels.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1125256]


No. Sparring is the master lab of wc training. Chi sao is the training wheels.
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Nice rhetoric but..

I sincerely dont think so but tou are entitled to your opinion. Without bouncing around I can use many wc moves with gloves-but wing chun attacks without gloves are so much more versatile.

Plus empty handed gor sao is form of sparring.


BTW- Curious-what kind of wing chun did you learn and from where or whom?

joy chaudhuri

[Robinhood]

Chi-sau is a way of training for developing sensitivity, Tai-chi push hands is also a training method for developing sensitivity.

They are a lot of stages and ways of doing these types of exercises, but without them you have very little chance of correcting your bad reactions.

As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.

[WC1277]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I'll try to word this one better so I don't get jumped all over again....

For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all "Chi Sao" starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it's English translation.
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Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don't know how to compare pov's systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.

Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.

Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.

I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun... wing chun has been a different world ... chi sao making things so much easier.

Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.

I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham's law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.

joy chaudhuri

Good post Joy! And Thanks! :) I understand your reasoning for when you post and when you don't and I might follow suit here. My problem is I have too much angst!!! :eek:

[Eric_H]

Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can't chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?



Hey James, good post - It makes clear that our two families have fundamentally different approaches to the thing with the same name.

I have seen Chi Sao used the way you describe to good effect in YM Wing Chun training (which I assume most folks here do).

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1125256]

Good post Joy! And Thanks! :) I understand your reasoning for when you post and when you don't and I might follow suit here. My problem is I have too much angst!!! :eek:
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No problem. It's the Mad Hatter's tea party and Alice in Wonderland and everyone has an opinion.
But then listening is an art in itself.

joy

[k gledhill]

If the specific skills such as threading only work when the other guy is holding his arm out, like in chi sao, does that mean chi sao type drills don't need to be trained at all?

If you ever in NYC stop in, its easier to show and tell, than write and not show at all.:D

[YouKnowWho]

there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn't work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.
It's easier to build a bridge when you attack. When your opponent blocks your punch, you build your bridge, destroy your bridge, cross your bridge, and do your thing.

[SavvySavage]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1125326]
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No problem. It's the Mad Hatter's tea party and Alice in Wonderland and everyone has an opinion.
But then listening is an art in itself.

joy

It seems you are one of the ones that don't listen well. Just saying. It's easy to badmoutj everyone else's opinion except yours. How often do you actually consider a different opinion other than your own? You're as close-minded as everyone you point the finger at.

[stonecrusher69]

Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don't chi sao or don't do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.

There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don't work well against someone who doesn't know the rules.

Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don't transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I'm nOt saying they can't be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.

For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn't work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.

Chi Sao is the Wing Chun Plat form,so if someone does not want to work within that platform then dont waste your time trying to.

[SavvySavage]

Chi Sao is the Wing Chun Plat form,so if someone does not want to work within that platform then dont waste your time trying to.

Chi sao is only one platform. Sparring is another. Do you try your skills in the sparring platform as well? How often?

Sparring is defined here ad having atleast a helmet, gloves, mouth piece, cup. You start from a distance apart and not connected. People become very unpredictable at this range as opposed to the arm touching range.

[stonecrusher69]

Chi sao is only one platform. Sparring is another. Do you try your skills in the sparring platform as well? How often?

Sparring is defined here ad having atleast a helmet, gloves, mouth piece, cup. You start from a distance apart and not connected. People become very unpredictable at this range as opposed to the arm touching range.

Sure, fighting is another one. Chi Sao are only testing grounds. Anything I can do in chi sao I can do for real. And sparring is not for real.

[SavvySavage]

Sure, fighting is another one. Chi Sao are only testing grounds. Anything I can do in chi sao I can do for real. And sparring is not for real.

And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we'll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I'm an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That's where I'm at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I'm turning away from wing chun when I'm actually trying to utilize it's skills in a more realistic way.

[WC1277]

And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we'll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I'm an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That's where I'm at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I'm turning away from wing chun when I'm actually trying to utilize it's skills in a more realistic way.

No, you just misunderstand Chi Sao, most likely to no fault of your own....

[SavvySavage]

No, you just misunderstand Chi Sao, most likely to no fault of your own....

Or likely you misunderstand chi sao which explains why you attach such importance to it...through no fault of your own.

[desertwingchun2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHv_O2x_YYU&NR=1

Appropriate for the discussion I think?

[mjw]

Chi sao is a developmental drill not fighting however doesn't chi aso teach you if somebody disengages to the strike? so if they pull the bridge back by pulling the punch back you should then strike IMO.....

[anerlich]

Chi sao doesn't work well for internet sparring.

[stonecrusher69]

And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we'll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I'm an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That's where I'm at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I'm turning away from wing chun when I'm actually trying to utilize it's skills in a more realistic way.

In Chi Sao range I use all the same weapons the M.T. guys uses you just described in your post. I don't avoid the sparring range. My range is close range.

[desertwingchun2]

Am I the only one that has used Chi Sao skills not to hit someone in a real life scenario?? Can't be. I wish my Sidai still posted on here. I know of a couple times his Chi Sao skills stopped things from going further. Two times in a pool hall and once I think it was at an after hours club.

For me there have been two recent times I can recall where Chi Sao definitely worked to avoid getting further into confrontations.

It's pretty cool to see some shrivel up after thinking they were going to tear your face off.

Anyways is this use of Chi Sao applicable to this thread??:confused:

[k gledhill]

Chi sao doesn't work well for internet sparring.

Agree, I deleted a post I made trying to make sense of it. Without the physical 'hands on' accompanying the explanations it aint happening here on a forum.

There are too many associative pitfalls when using the same terms for differing conceptual usage....For example I say 'tan sao' in chi sao context and ten guys reading think ten ways, me included :D

[Taixuquan99]

Chi sao doesn't work well for internet sparring.

Which is ironic, given that wing chun is the internet sparring style of choice!:D

[nasmedicine]

Without the physical 'hands on' accompanying the explanations it aint happening here on a forum.

QFE! Now we'er talking!

[YouKnowWho]

I still don't understand why WC guys like to argue among themselves. :confused: Right or wrong, I want to support my own brothers 100% and fight against none family members. As long as you train TCMA, you are one of us. That's just very simple logic IMO.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I still don't understand why WC guys like to argue among themselves. :confused: Right or wrong, I want to support my own brothers 100% and fight against none family members. As long as you train TCMA, you are one of us. That's just very simple logic IMO.

There are vocal groups in Wing Chun that claim authority based on pseudo science, so called unbroken lineages, and number of Martial Arts magazine articles. Until all people involved in WC are strictly performance oriented, these arguments will occur.

You say that you support your brother, but you haven't been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid

[k gledhill]

There are vocal groups in Wing Chun that claim authority based on pseudo science, so called unbroken lineages, and number of Martial Arts magazine articles. Until all people involved in WC are strictly performance oriented, these arguments will occur.

You say that you support your brother, but you haven't been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid

There are the Qi based authorities who will display ridiculous shows and have no scientific base to stand on.
Then there are the guys who go out and see for themselves the effects of a punch. They take this practical experience and develop on the reality to perfect the alignment, timing, balance and ways to incorporate tactical ideas too. Then they go out and fight some more...take that experience[experiment] and take it apart in analysis with others to improve on the reality.
Falsifiability is moot when a guy is lying unconscious at ones feet from your realtively tiny fist touching their face for a split second...

[YouKnowWho]

You say that you support your brother, but you haven't been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid
We can all have room to improve. When the time come, we can all become "perfect". As long as my brothers are doing the same thing that I'm doing, I will never discourage my brothers in any way. :)


There are the Qi based authorities who will display ridiculous shows and have no scientific base to stand on.
Until someday someone use his Qi to beat me up, I'll have problem with "Qi based authorities" too.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have a feeling that this Ip Man Wing Chun thing has pretty much trashed a decent martial art. Chi sao fighting and such. When you hear of full contact Wing Chun it is usually chi sao compitition. Che sao is something that 2, that's 2, wing chun trainees do in order to practice their hand techniques. They really don't even have to do it, but it helps. Today so many people think if is actually fighting. Chi sao is a two man form sort of, where siu lim is a one man form. It teaches. And unless you intend to fight nothing but other wing chun men, you can or should quickly get away from it and move on.
The average man you will fight is going to take a boxing stance and move about, throwing punches and using his shoulder and hands to block punches. Try chi sao'ing that. If you want to spar, spar. Don't play with this chi sao thing. You don't have to kill one another. In fact, you don't have to hit one another hard at all. Sparring is nothing more than play fighting. It allows you to use skills you learn while doing such drills as chi sao or whatever.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have a feeling that this Ip Man Wing Chun thing has pretty much trashed a decent martial art.

I have often thought the same thing. However, he has trained a few good martial artists. I think that he let some junk pass in the interest of money.

[imperialtaichi]

In our line of Kulo WC we don't pay much emphasis on the Tanbongfok Chi Sau. We focus more on a number of partner practice exercises that develops the right habits and reflexes.

In a real fight, ideology goes out the window. Everyone has a plan until you get hit. The only thing that matters are habits, reflexes, body condition and determination.

[CFT]

Chi sao is a developmental drill not fighting however doesn't chi aso teach you if somebody disengages to the strike? so if they pull the bridge back by pulling the punch back you should then strike IMO.....That is the kuen kuit: "Lat sau jik chung" (on loss of contact strike ahead).

[Graham H]

That is the kuen kuit: "Lat sau jik chung" (on loss of contact strike ahead).

LSJC......another concept not fully understood by a lot of WC practitioners. LSJC doesn't just relate to loss of contact. Thats only the tip of the iceberg! ;)

GH

[CFT]

C'mon then G. You know you want to!

[Graham H]

C'mon then G. You know you want to!

Want to what? :confused: :)

GH

[CFT]

Reveal the rest of the iceberg.

[Graham H]

Reveal the rest of the iceberg.

Well you know what happened to the Titanic mate so its too risky! :D

GH

[k gledhill]

The Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Cheung the basis of the fighting idea of VT

[Graham H]

The Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Cheung the basis of the fighting idea of VT

....intercept your opponets attacks with your own, cut his way when he moves, no obsticles then thrust forward without hesitation. The problem with trying to translate Cantonese word for word restricts the ability to translate the proper ideas behind them. The way you think is important not hanging off every word because it can be roughly translated into English!

GH

[CFT]

Hey I like that description of LLHS/LSJC. Not a literal translation but I like the ideas embodied in that.

[Graham H]

Hey I like that description of LLHS/LSJC. Not a literal translation but I like the ideas embodied in that.

Making literal translations is wrong Chee. I have talked to my Teacher about this and he exoplained the problem. This was also a problem when WSL was trying to teach Westeners according to him. How do explain certain idea to a room full of people from all different backgrounds and cultures. PB told that WSL thought this was a problem. I made the same mistake myself.

We can use the "loss of contact" idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.

the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.

GH

[CFT]

Making literal translations is wrong Chee.I appreciate that. I wasn't expressing myself clearly. The kuen kuit themselves don't really have meaning IMO. They're just catchphrases. You need to know the detail behind them.


We can use the "loss of contact" idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.

the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.Good point about non retraction and whole body movement.

[Graham H]

I appreciate that. I wasn't expressing myself clearly. The kuen kuit themselves don't really have meaning IMO. They're just catchphrases. You need to know the detail behind them.

Good point about non retraction and whole body movement.

Correct! The Kuen Kuit doesn’t really have a great deal of meaning. They are just maxims that have been coined through the years. We already know how misinterpreted Wing Chun can be and also the small amount of people that were actually taught anything of any real substance by Yip Man so these sayings are just an enjoyable read if you are into that sort of thing. I used to hang off every word as well. I even started to learn Cantonese as I thought I would make better sense of it but I found out that wasn’t the correct way. Before that I would have disagreed with myself!!

Ving Tsun is conceptual. It’s not Karate where every word is a literal translation. How you think and behave is important and this can’t be conveyed through the internet, books or DVD’s.

…anyway back to the bickering!! :D:D

[k gledhill]

Making literal translations is wrong Chee. I have talked to my Teacher about this and he exoplained the problem. This was also a problem when WSL was trying to teach Westeners according to him. How do explain certain idea to a room full of people from all different backgrounds and cultures. PB told that WSL thought this was a problem. I made the same mistake myself.

We can use the "loss of contact" idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.

the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.

GH

@ chee , the 'catch phrases' are so we can remember them easily, but the translations are not literal as you say.

The drills I now do from WSL/PB incorporate this concept. I would never have stepped away from a fellow student in chi-sao with my old thinking of sticking feeling mindset, but for this concept.
You can see the dismay in guys trained in sticking to arms as you do this the first time :D invariably nobody keeps attacking , its like stand and roll and play the game or nothing.
Then the fun begins with guys trying to attack with a sticking arm mentality to a guy who isnt going to stick to their arms :D:D:D:D but just hits the free space as it over chases, too much momentum to stop their movement...you open up a new world of thinking .