How To Change From Horse Stance Into Bow Arrow Stance

[YouKnowWho]

Do you turn on your back "toe" or on your back "heel" when you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance"? I just found this elementary school TCMA training book that has very clear picture on how to turn on back "toe".

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8641/horsestance.jpg

- Under what condition will you turn on your back "heel" instead?
- Will you turn differently if you want to kick out your back leg, or punch out your back hand right after your turning?
- Do you always have combat intend when you turn? Or do you prefer to separate your turn from your next move?

[hskwarrior]

Um, well, in our Choy Lee Fut we don't turn on any toes or the heel when turning into a Din Ji Ja or bow stance. we turn on the arch of our foot.

[Lucas]

following that method, if i want to kick out with my lead leg, in say a front kick, i will turn on my heel. if i want to kick out with my rear leg, i will not turn that rear foot at all, i will go directly to the kick. also if i am going to punch out with my back hand, personally, i will probably not turn the foot and instead i will step with the punch. however it all depend on what is happening.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is one reason to turn on back "toe".

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3885/roundhousekick.gif

[hskwarrior]

Here is one reason to turn on back "toe".

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3...dhousekick.gif

oh thats a simple pivot. simple enough. but to go from Sei Ping Ma to Din Ji Ma, we never turn on your toes.

[YouKnowWho]

oh thats a simple pivot. simple enough. but to go from Sei Ping Ma to Din Ji Ma, we never turn on your toes.

Would you mind to share your reason from your CLF point of view - never turn on your toes?

I have always believed that in order to "spring", you have to lift your heel up, and the best combat posture is you can "spring" from it.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=ready+to+run&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&tbm=isch&tbnid=3al0imrAonZglM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ljsphotographyonline.com/keyword/leotard/1/1282444289_swxRHGc&docid=y2TraV1Djc3xgM&w=600&h=400&ei=_VhMTv2FJ8TniAKS1KCeAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=303&vpy=313&dur=2989&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=149&ty=125&page=2&tbnh=134&tbnw=201&start=19&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:19&biw=1344&bih=647

[hskwarrior]

Mainly stability. We utilize a type of footwork called Snake Stepping. Our feet pretty much glide across the floor while moving in the different directions. another reason is we follow the four points of power. with your feet on fully on the ground you have all points connected meaning heel and toe. lift one heel you have three points of power.

However, in this specific stance, which is called the T stance in our HSCLF. The rear leg form the body of the T while the front leg shapes the top part of it. for us, this is a mid to short range stance designed to be strong and rooted and easily mobile.

The stance we have that there are three points of power are the Twist Horse, Kneel Horse, and Tip Toe horse. in all of these the heel is raised creating only three points of power.

Also, i've witnessed people trying to turn in some CLF stances like the Bow stance and when they were on the balls of their feet they tended to slide back and away from primary focus which is in front of you.

[bawang]

- Under what condition will you turn on your back "heel" instead?


when u clinch

[LFJ]

Horse to Bow is one of the most basic, versatile, and important stance transitions in Songshan Shaolin, used in striking, throwing, and all kinds of situations.

In Chinese there's a saying; "Lian wu bu lian yao, zong jiu yi bu gao" which means "martial arts practice without waist training, always remains just one step high". It talks about the importance of training waist power.

Horse to Bow in Songshan Shaolin is all about the waist.


Do you turn on your back "toe" or on your back "heel" when you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance"? I just found this elementary school TCMA training book that has very clear picture on how to turn on back "toe".

In Songshan Shaolin the turn is the same with both feet as shown in the picture. Front toes turn out and back heel turns out, but without really lifting. It's more like kicking the heel to the rear. The power is initiated from the waist and creates a spiral motion which sends energy out from the center. It's much different from simply pushing off the back foot to send the whole body forward into the bow stance, making you susceptible to being pulled off balance. Instead you keep your weight centered and create a spiral power. The emphasis is popping the rear leg and snapping the hips square.


- Under what condition will you turn on your back "heel" instead?
- Will you turn differently if you want to kick out your back leg, or punch out your back hand right after your turning?
- Do you always have combat intend when you turn? Or do you prefer to separate your turn from your next move?

- In order to snap the rear leg knee downward, and square the hips forward in bow stance, you have to thrust your heel backward. It won't work otherwise and won't generation the proper speed and power.

- We don't kick from horse stance like that. If there is a kick, it would follow the turn into bow stance, and the regular fighting stance is a modified bow. If it is punching with the rear hand, the turn and power generation from the waist is as I explained. Rather than pushing from the rear foot and sending the weight forward, you snap the waist and turn the hip over to create a spiral energy without leaning or pushing forward (so as not to be pulled off balance). It's like a spinning top, the center stays in place and the energy spirals out in all directions. So it's not pushing from the rear and "punching" with the arm. It's all in the waist power.

- Not sure what you mean here. The turn has important purposes in many different applications, as a striking power, twisting, throwing, etc.. Many uses. Don't know why it would be separated from combat intention.

[RenDaHai]

As LFJ correctly observed above; its more like Back toe, front heel. But one should concentrate on the switch of the Hips and the waist. Even a small gong bu is much wider than ma bu, it is necessary to turn the heel out.

Saying this in modern Shaolin the switch has become over-used. For example when striking off the front hand it is more common to step into gong bu. When striking off the rear hand it is more traditional not to use gong bu at all but a variation called Yao bu.

Gong bu (bow stance) is called such because the front leg is bent like a bow. If you turn the waist fully and strike off the rear hand it will put you off balance to Gong (bow) the front leg as far as knee above toes. So often the front leg is not so bowed and the stance is more like a walking stance and is referred to as Yao Bu. In yao bu the rear leg can comfortably step foreward slightly. This is because striking from the rear hand compromises range and it is useful to step foreward.

Similarly Xubu-Gongbu switch is special. In this case one may push off the back heel, like a sprinter pushing off starting blocks. The front leg steps foreward dramatically into GOng bu (or Yao bu if using the rear hand).

Pu bu -Gong bu is also a special case. Jinji du li to gong bu is also. In fact every switch is slightly different. In modern Shaolin most people will first switch to Ma bu then to gong bu, so the Ma bu to gong bu switch is almost always used. It has been simplified this way to the detriment of shaolin.

The Mabu-gongbu switch is the most powerful, more powerful than stepping since you have already grown roots (yet slower). This is probably why it has replaced the other switches in many schools.

It is still one of the most important switches and a valuable training tool, but too overused.

[YouKnowWho]

- Not sure what you mean here. The turn has important purposes in many different applications, as a striking power, twisting, throwing, etc.. Many uses. Don't know why it would be separated from combat intention.

May be the better words can be "Do you consider turn and do your thing as one move, or separate moves?"


Even a small gong bu is much wider than ma bu, it is necessary to turn the heel out.
This is what I have always believe in too. But some Taiji guys don't agree with me on this. They prefer to turn on back heel instead.

[bawang]

yao bu (twist step) is from old orthodox footwork. gongbu is a useless modern wushu invention.

traditional kung fu categorizes footwork by usage. there is no such thing as mabu and gongbu.

[LFJ]

So often the front leg is not so bowed and the stance is more like a walking stance and is referred to as Yao Bu. In yao bu the rear leg can comfortably step foreward slightly.

Yes, that's what I meant as the fighting stance being a modified gongbu, where you bring the back foot more under yourself. This stance shows up in older traditional ways of doing Shaolin. Probably rarely if ever by the modern guys.

[hskwarrior]

I would never use this stance in fighting. its too long. i would used half the length of the gong Bu. in HSCLF our toe doesn't point in the direction. from the perspective of the picture, the toe would be turn to the right more.

http://www.wushu.fvg.it/immagini/GONG%20BU.gif

[bawang]

*makes sweet love to dead horse

[hskwarrior]

thats just nasty......:eek:

[YouKnowWho]

I would never use this stance in fighting. its too long. i would used half the length of the gong Bu. in HSCLF our toe doesn't point in the direction. from the perspective of the picture, the toe would be turn to the right more.

http://www.wushu.fvg.it/immagini/GONG%20BU.gif

You may not use bow-arrow stance for your strike but you will use it for your throw.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/oldpic22.jpg/

Do your guys realize that we can have civilized discussion without personal attacking when MMA guys are not involved? :)

[RenDaHai]

yao bu (twist step) is from old orthodox footwork. gongbu is a useless modern wushu invention.

traditional kung fu categorizes footwork by usage. there is no such thing as mabu and gongbu.

Gong bu can still be used when striking off of the front hand. Like fencers lunge. In my forms gong bu never appears with a rear hand strike but is common for the front hand. Saying this the stance is instantaneous not held.

(Edit; Actually I do have occasions where the strike is not in line with the stance but perpendicular, in this case a rear gong bu appears.) This is not always striking but sometimes more a throwing movement.

[hskwarrior]

You may not use bow-arrow stance for your strike but you will use it for your throw.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/oldpic22.jpg/

Do your guys realize that we can have civilized discussion without personal attacking when MMA guys are not involved?

Yes, in a throw or a long sweep yes. but when we strike the bow stance is much shorter.

and yes, i agree. we all can have a good conversation.

[YouKnowWho]

gongbu is a useless modern wushu invention ... there is no such thing as mabu and gongbu.
The Chinese throwing art is built on the following 3 stances:

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- golden rooster stance.

Witout bow-arrow stance, many throws will not be able to perform. Examples are cracking throw, pulling throw, 1/2 hip throw 1/2 leg block, ...

When you use your shin bone to run into your opponent's front leg, you will need that low bow-arrow stance.

[lkfmdc]

Do your guys realize that we can have civilized discussion without personal attacking when MMA guys are not involved?

John, why not just keep discussing good stuff and not make negative comments like this, it serves no purpose

[LFJ]

I would never use this stance in fighting. its too long.

It really depends on what you're using it for, what type of application. If just a straight punch like that, yeah that's pretty ridiculous.

But this stance, even as long as it is, is directly applicable to several types of throws and takedowns coming from different positions where your ending stance is just like that.

[hskwarrior]

It really depends on what you're using it for, what type of application. If just a straight punch like that, yeah that's pretty ridiculous.

right, it could be used as a long reverse sweep while striking or throwing. you're right about that

[YouKnowWho]

John, why not just keep discussing good stuff and not make negative comments like this, it serves no purpose

There is nothing wrong to share happiness with others. It has been a while that we don't have to worry about someone may say, "to change from horse stance into bow-arrow stance is useless because you will never see anybody use it in the cage".

To be able to discuss something that you may not see in any cage fight is pretty "luxury" in this forum. :D

[RenDaHai]

http://www.wushu.fvg.it/immagini/GONG%20BU.gif

Yeah, this is kind of what we were talking about above, this is a rear hand strike in Gong Bu... It doesn't appear in Old shaolin, the stance would be a lot closer.

But yeah as a throw it appears.

[lkfmdc]

Yeah, this is kind of what we were talking about above, this is a rear hand strike in Gong Bu... It doesn't appear in Old shaolin, the stance would be a lot closer.

But yeah as a throw it appears.

modern performance aesthetic leads to longer stances, lower stances, longer lines, extended limbs. Real kung fu is pretty UGLY actually ;)

[lkfmdc]

To be able to discuss something that you may not see in any cage fight is pretty "luxury" in this forum. :D

but you DO see "stance" in a cage fight, in ANY fight, just not static stances, which I doubt you believe in anyway

[RenDaHai]

modern performance aesthetic leads to longer stances, lower stances, longer lines, extended limbs. Real kung fu is pretty UGLY actually ;)

Hehe, Yeah, old shaolin is generally known as being very ugly in Wushu cricles. My old master always said it should be ugly. But you know when you see someone on the street who is really ugly but you can't stop looking at them because their face has so much character.... beautifully ugly. I think of Shaolin a bit like this...



And yeah, if you freeze frame a ring fight at the moment a strike hits you will often see stances....Quite well defined sometimes. But they are as they should be in an instant.

To anyone; A good one to watch is boxings 'Prince Naseem' Freeze frame his knockouts and see his hand and stance position.

[YouKnowWho]

but you DO see "stance" in a cage fight, in ANY fight, just not static stances, which I doubt you believe in anyway
The stance is always "non-static" by my definition. The "stealing step" to me is just a body spin. The 坐盤勢(Zuo Pan Shi) shoudl not even exist in TCMA IMO.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=%E5%9D%90%E7%9B%A4%E5%8B%A2&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=FFOj8fdmZ54mWM:&imgrefurl=http://www.qqgfw.com/FollowMeInfo.aspx%253FFollowMeID%253D197&docid=iJiCMnLPcXsIHM&w=400&h=518&ei=8ZZMTr7IAYHhiALLreh8&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=755&vpy=68&dur=2594&hovh=256&hovw=197&tx=127&ty=118&page=1&tbnh=153&tbnw=111&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0&biw=1344&bih=647

[lkfmdc]

The stance is always "non-static" by my definition. The "stealing step" to me is just a body spin. The 坐盤勢(Zuo Pan Shi) shoudl not even exist in TCMA IMO.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=%E5%9D%90%E7%9B%A4%E5%8B%A2&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=FFOj8fdmZ54mWM:&imgrefurl=http://www.qqgfw.com/FollowMeInfo.aspx%253FFollowMeID%253D197&docid=iJiCMnLPcXsIHM&w=400&h=518&ei=8ZZMTr7IAYHhiALLreh8&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=755&vpy=68&dur=2594&hovh=256&hovw=197&tx=127&ty=118&page=1&tbnh=153&tbnw=111&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0&biw=1344&bih=647

some things were originally just "expedient means" (do you know this Buddhist term?) - teach at the level they are ready. But the guy teaching started to be just as "uneducated" and things got watered down over time

We use a LOT of footwork, but never stand in stances

[LFJ]

http://www.wushu.fvg.it/immagini/GONG%20BU.gif
Yeah, this is kind of what we were talking about above, this is a rear hand strike in Gong Bu... It doesn't appear in Old shaolin, the stance would be a lot closer.

But yeah as a throw it appears.

I've done the technique pictured, from Mabu hooking the left arm, then transitioning into this Gongbu right punch.

But the application is not as a punch, but part of a kick catch and throw.

The left arm hooks under an incoming heel kick, catching it in the crook of the arm. The body has to turn into "Mabu" to avoid being in line of the kick.

Then the right hand takes the opponents heel into the palm of the hand (in the same position as a horizontal punch), and turning (even stepping) into left Gongbu the right hand pushes their leg up toward their own head, throwing them up and back quite a ways and landing hard.

Of course this can be worsened by rushing forward, or stepping on their base foot, or hooking their base leg for an even harder crash to the ground.

But this is one such application where the stance is from Mabu into Gongbu as a clear lunge stance.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ, yeah I see that.

@ All, A nice pic;

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00173/nassemhamed_173684s.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

I have involved with many "WC discussion threads". When I start a "general TCMA discussion thread" like this, I can never get any of our WC friends to involve with our discussion. Do anybody know "why"?

[lkfmdc]

I have involved with many "WC discussion threads". When I start a "general TCMA discussion thread" like this, I can never get any of our WC friends to involve with our discussion. Do anybody know "why"?

unfortunately, a lot of them seem to have learned only certain aspects. I think throwing is neglected in many wc lineages these days, they never got a chance to learn it

[YouKnowWho]

unfortunately, a lot of them seem to have learned only certain aspects. I think throwing is neglected in many wc lineages these days, they never got a chance to learn it

I can understand that our WC friends may not be interested in throw, but they have 二字箝羊馬 (Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma) which is similiar to horse stance too. They should have the same issue as how to turn from their YGKYM stance.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=wing+chun+stance+names&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=6MUrAs_xNGs5XM:&imgrefurl=http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/martial-art-is-perspective-not-activity/&docid=PQeklLB_r8SHKM&w=180&h=274&ei=qaZMTpORGcjhiALRvbB1&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=359&vpy=250&dur=152&hovh=219&hovw=144&tx=91&ty=119&page=1&tbnh=162&tbnw=103&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&biw=1344&bih=647

[ginosifu]

We has this discussion a while back. Ben Gash, JamesC, and YouKnowWho all like to pivot on the ball (Toe area). I prefer pivoting off the Heel.

While having this debate I realized that there are different approaches they both have their merits. Pivoting off the Ball prepares you for a kinda springy power. Where pivoting off the Heel gives you more body or waist power.

The use for each is going to change depending on the situation. Example:

Heels: I use the heel when deliver a reverse punch to drive off the ground with my back heel.

Ball: When doing a lower Body Hip Throw, as you bend down (pulling your opponent over) you use a springy push off your Toes (Ball) to finish the throw.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

For those of you trying to follow along and trying to understand where this skill development fits into martial arts - think of opening movements in the Jin Wu form Gung Lik Kuen. Go to a heavy bag - do a straight punch out of horse - then do the same straight punch but this time transition from horse to bow as in the form gung lik kuen. Notice the difference.

Good TCMA discussion Master Wang. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to what ends up being the front leg is doing when I transition from horse to bow, it does what it needs to do, but I do pay attention to the back and I always "pop" off the pivoting toe as LFJ and the diagram show.

This popping is fundamentally important to a thrower - watch this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IpweRu1KB0) for example of how that transitioning movement is used.

[Howard]

Depends. But in basics usually ball suits the development of the waist.

[hskwarrior]

Depends. But in basics usually ball suits the development of the waist.

you can get the same range of motion in the waist with a foot that has both heels and toes on the floor.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you turn on your back "toe" or on your back "heel" when you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance"? I just found this elementary school TCMA training book that has very clear picture on how to turn on back "toe".



- Under what condition will you turn on your back "heel" instead?
- Will you turn differently if you want to kick out your back leg, or punch out your back hand right after your turning?
- Do you always have combat intend when you turn? Or do you prefer to separate your turn from your next move?
That photo is just a basic guide that is common in forms. In a practical setting there are many ways one's footwork could get you into a bow's arrow stance.

[YouKnowWho]

To change from horse stance into bow-arrow stance, since even a small bow-arrow stance is much wider than the horse stance, in order to obtain that extra distance for your bow-arrow stance, you will have the following 2 options:

To turn on your

1. toes and move your heel out,
2. heel and move your toes in, but move your leading leg forward,

If you take the 2nd appoach, since this will shorten the distance between your opponent's leading leg and your leading leg, this will give your opponent a chance to attack your advanced leading leg.

[bawang]

Gong bu can still be used when striking off of the front hand.

there is no such thing as gong bu. there is yao si ping, or twisting flat stance.



gongbu and mabu are products of modern wushu. they are not traditional terms. they do not have anything to do with fighting.

[lance]

Do you turn on your back "toe" or on your back "heel" when you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance"? I just found this elementary school TCMA training book that has very clear picture on how to turn on back "toe".

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8641/horsestance.jpg

- Under what condition will you turn on your back "heel" instead?
- Will you turn differently if you want to kick out your back leg, or punch out your back hand right after your turning?
- Do you always have combat intend when you turn? Or do you prefer to separate your turn from your next move?

YouKnowWho , it ' s simple you ' re in a horse stance just turn to the right , until your body is in alignment with your front and back leg . Your front knee should be covering your front toe . the samething as you turn to your left too . When
you ' re in a right bow and arrow stance for example the center part of your body ,
should be facing should be aligned to your front leg . You do the samething as you turn to your left and do the left bow and arrow stance too . The reason why they call it a bow and arrow stance is because the front knee is a shape of an arrow and the rear leg is the shape of a bow , when you ' re pulling the bow back to shoot the arrow , that ' s the reason why they call it a bow and arrow stance .
This comes from Sifu Bucksam Kong ' s Hung Gar Kung Fu Book , the first one he published .

[YouKnowWho]

Since HungGar uses wider horse stance, there is no narrow horse stance and wider bow-arrow stance issue. It's very interest to see that the same form (Gong Li Chuan) were done in different ways.

If you start with narrow horse stance, you will turn your back toes (to make your stance wider) as shown at 0.05 and 0.07.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5EiGggygo0

If you start with wider horse stance, you can turn your back heel (since you just can't go any lower) as you can see at 0.05 and 0.07.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zorsx50Dhss

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have involved with many "WC discussion threads". When I start a "general TCMA discussion thread" like this, I can never get any of our WC friends to involve with our discussion. Do anybody know "why"?

WC is a very narrow and orthodox kung fu. I only have experience with this stuff because I learned a family's system of kung fu that involved learning basic kung fu principles before learning WC or anything else.

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pFkoda6D7s

This is a good example of the Mabu to Gongbu transition in a Songshan Shaolin Qinna technique. Watch in the video at the first Qinna application at 1:50.

It doesn't show the full stance, but you can see he turns first to Mabu to set up the lock and then pops his hips square into Gongbu as his right arm thrusts down applying pressure to the opponents elbow. Of course in real application the pop and snap will be much more fierce.

This is an application of the technique "wozhen" (lying on the pillow) as seen in Dapaoquan for example. See in the video below the technique done thrice at 1:30.

Notice how he snaps his hips square from Mabu into Gongbu using waist power. The back foot pushes the heel out rear of the ball which just pivots, hips snap and the rear knee goes from facing outward to inward/downward. The power in this application is downward, not forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o

[YouKnowWho]

To turn on back heel is "推(Tui) - push". To turn on back toes 涌泉穴(Yong Quan Xue) is "转(Zhuan) - twist". My understanding is that the "纏絲勁(Chan Si Jin) - silk reeling Jin" requires "转(Zhuan) - twist" from the foot, to the knee, and all the way up to the shoulder.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1021/ycpoint.jpg

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4769/silkreeling.jpg

[hungheikwan]

There are advantages to both techniques. Pivoting on the ball of the foot can quickly line up the hip and heel to maximize a kick (that power connection is from your heel upward, though, not the ball of the foot). Pivoting on the heel (turning toes in or out) can be beneficial to "bumping" your opponent's leg with your knee. And in cases of rapid foot-changing (a shuai jiao leg block, for instance), what starts as a "stealing" step, turns quickly to ma bu, then gongbu as the waist turns; in this case it seems better to pivot on the heels for increased stability.

[Northwind]

We pivot on the heels almost all of the time. We pivot on the balls of the feet rarely, but do sometimes. But like everything, it depends on the context and situation.

[David Jamieson]

in stationary, we use the whole sole of the foot to pivot. as if digging into sand or crushing grapes.

[Northwind]

Pivoting is over-rated anyway. I prefer to just stand in one spot and not move anything at all preferably. Pivot tables are too difficult too.

:P

[David Jamieson]

Well, pivot tables are really handy for correlating otherwise disconnected data record sets.

For statistical analysis, they are super handy!

pivoting on the whole foot "screws you into the ground".
Offers a modicum of stability while in motion.

[Northwind]

With you on both accounts. Sometimes we "drill down" as well - depends on context ;)

[TenTigers]

in our Hung Kuen, we teach beginners to pivot on their heel to maintain connection to the earth, and not cause "hinges" in their legs, keeping direct line of force. It is easier than saying "Pivot on your yung chuan."
Large stances, front leg bent, rear leg locked, back straight, is a beginner's learning level.
It is teaching method. "From the large comes the small."
Later on in their training, they are taught to pivot on their rear ball of the foot and "slam" the heel into the ground, tuck the sacrum, unlock the rear leg, swallow the chest. The power ripples through the body.
The stances in Hung-Kuen are also shorter later on, as the student's body is "educated."

[Northwind]

in our Hung Kuen, we teach beginners to pivot on their heel to maintain connection to the earth, and not cause "hinges" in their legs, keeping direct line of force. It is easier than saying "Pivot on your yung chuan."
Large stances, front leg bent, rear leg locked, back straight, is a beginner's learning level.
It is teaching method. "From the large comes the small."
Later on in their training, they are taught to pivot on their rear ball of the foot and "slam" the heel into the ground, tuck the sacrum, unlock the rear leg, swallow the chest. The power ripples through the body.
The stances in Hung-Kuen are also shorter later on, as the student's body is "educated."

Dam I can resonate!
Love your easier than yong quan phrase! Dig it! :)

Altho I agree on 99.9% - not agree - but rather ascribe to same practice as I guess - as you - I dont have anyone do the straight-leggers. The correction afterwards is just too painful :P

[Northwind]

rear ball of the foot and "slam" the heel into the ground, tuck the sacrum, unlock the rear leg, swallow the chest. The power ripples through the body.
The stances in Hung-Kuen are also shorter later on, as the student's body is "educated."

lol Me too...I need to have a chat with you privately. I am finally at the point where I might just have a golden child. But verbiage is tough with me. I can recognize certain things but have a hard time putting them in words.

And certain things my student needs to hear. You seem to do well with them and I could use some tips.

[TenTigers]

lol Me too...I need to have a chat with you privately. I am finally at the point where I might just have a golden child. But verbiage is tough with me. I can recognize certain things but have a hard time putting them in words.

And certain things my student needs to hear. You seem to do well with them and I could use some tips.
anytime. I am at your service!

[Faux Newbie]

To turn on back heel is "推(Tui) - push". To turn on back toes 涌泉穴(Yong Quan Xue) is "转(Zhuan) - twist". My understanding is that the "纏絲勁(Chan Si Jin) - silk reeling Jin" requires "转(Zhuan) - twist" from the foot, to the knee, and all the way up to the shoulder.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1021/ycpoint.jpg

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4769/silkreeling.jpg

I tend to do the pivot this way for that purpose when the bow stance is going to be very transitional into a pivot forward.