White Crane & Hung Ga

[TopCrusader]

This could quite possibly be the most "newbie" question ever asked in this forum. Forgive my ignorance as I do not practice either of these arts.

My question is basically is there a difference in the techniques, postures, tactics, etc between the Crane elements found in Hung Ga versus the southern White Crane art? From what I understand, both have their roots in the Shaolin temple.

Thanks

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, there are a few white crane systems.
Define "elements"?
From what I have seen and experienced of Fukien White Crane and my experience in Hung Kuen, I would have to say that they are NOT the same thing.

[PM]

as for the origin of Hung Ga Kyun, everything points to Fukgin (Fujian). i do believe that Fukgin White Crane is one of the Ancestors of (old) Hung Ga Kyun, Lou Hung Kyun, ie. pre-Wong Feihung Hung Kyun and old Wing Cheun as well (judging from what i have seen of Baan Jung Wing Cheun. we even have very similar "crane" story as most Fukgin White Crane branches

check out ie.

Saam Jin Tit Sin Kyun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTfFjhv6Ys

Ye Fu Cheut Lam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

and of course Tit Sin Kyun (quite a few videos at YouTube)

today's Hung kyun might have been influenced by varius branches of Fukgin White Crane - my tip is Calling Crane and Flying Crane. (not to confuse with "Tibetan" White Crane/Hap Ga/Lama Paai, which is a different story)

some Hung Kyun/White Crane discussion

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=443&highlight=white+crane

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=741&highlight=white+crane

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=754&highlight=white+crane

[jdhowland]

...My question is basically is there a difference in the techniques, postures, tactics, etc between the Crane elements found in Hung Ga versus the southern White Crane art? From what I understand, both have their roots in the Shaolin temple.


There is nothing "Shaolin" about any southern white crane or Hung Ga.

The crane methods of Wong Fei Hung's lineage are found in the "dual methods tiger crane boxing" and derive from Wong Yan Lum's "lama kyuhn" style, originally a northern system not particularly related to Shaolin.

If you go back far enough there may well be some interrelatedness between seminal Hung method and branches that would become known as the southern crane systems. I don't know that any clear relationships have been discovered. Gwangdung and Fukien are close, but communication was not so easy in the 18th century. The way I look at it, everyone influenced everyone else when there was contact. Sometimes it was only political influence, sometimes familial, sometimes just negative influence. Names and "systems/styles" were probably not so important in those days. I think the names show political allegiance more than they reflect what was actually practiced.

[Hendrik]

Hung Gar and Fujian White Crane are different type of art. They develop different type of engine and uses different type of power generation.

[Mulong]

Hendrik, the opening of Working Pattern, Tiger Crane, and Iron Thread does possess some similarities Fujian stylist; maybe hong doesn’t focus on fajin per se, but the notion of wrapping the tendon is there.

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, the opening of Working Pattern, Tiger Crane, and Iron Thread does possess some similarities Fujian stylist; maybe hong doesn’t focus on fajin per se, but the notion of wrapping the tendon is there.

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.



For me, postures are just the bottle. one needs to know what is inside.

So, it is analogy to one is electical car and the other is gasoline car. the shape of the car might looks similar but they have different engine.

As most of you here know, I dont like to go by history or myth. I like to get to the bottom line directly, and let the bottom line tell us what it is as it is.

thus, we dont have to speculate. we just have to lift the hood and see what is inside the "car".


These two arts use different type of strengths.

With the way Hung gar cultivate its Kiu Sau, that already tell how it is different compare the Fujian White Crane joints power. The result of their physical body conditioning are totally different.

[TenTigers]

Actually, hung ga has more than one type of "engine"
At the fhsyk "level," the short hand section utilizes a completely different method comprised of fctt, coiling, spiraling,etc. You would ha ve to be in
troduced to this by your teacher and cannot. Be learned simply by viewing a YouTube video. I have felt the hands of people of advanced levels such as Lum Jo, who even at 98, had the feel similar to hand of Fukien and Hakka kuen.

[soulfist]

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.
Yes, but Hung Ga is not from Hung Hei, its from Luk Ah Choi.

[hskwarrior]

ok this may be an old argument....but what if any are the differences between hung kuen and hung gar kuen?

[TenTigers]

Depends...some use the terms interchangeably for hung-gar while others
may be referring to a specific set, or village style.so it gets very confusing.

[Hendrik]

Actually, hung ga has more than one type of "engine"
At the fhsyk "level," the short hand section utilizes a completely different method comprised of fctt, coiling, spiraling,etc. You would ha ve to be in
troduced to this by your teacher and cannot. Be learned simply by viewing a YouTube video. I have felt the hands of people of advanced levels such as Lum Jo, who even at 98, had the feel similar to hand of Fukien and Hakka kuen.



There is no way an art has many type of engine. Not in TCMA.



This is Hung Gar Kiu Sau cultivation, it is based on dynamic tension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72AgNMkeLw&playnext=1&list=PL46A62F76A589625D




This is White Crane cultivation,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFjhWZUWsoE&playnext=1&list=PL6CAF457DA3CB1D9D





This is Wing Chun cultivation, based on totally loose Qi flow dynamic similar to other internal art.

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=897899701




There is no way a practitioner can do all of the above after their body is condition in either one type. Their body can only do what their body is condition with. That is reality.

as an analogy, a runner's body, a swimmer's body, a weight lifter's body are different types of body. after a long time of conditioning, they generate force differently for their own purpose based on their training and conditioning.

One cannot expect a weight lifter to generate power for swimming like a swimmer.



Thus, "soft" in one art is very different then the "soft" in other art.

In my opinion, failing to know the above will cause one to be blinded. I saw an interview in Gene's youtube somewhere where a grand master of Hung Gar claiming his soft kiu is equivalent to Taiji's ... well, that is totally off. Anyone who knows Taiji Kung knows those who practice Iron Wire type of art would not get Taiji type of body and jing. because those a heaven and earth different body conditioning.


So, in my opinion, here in the west, if we are not clear with this type of reality in TCMA, we will only end up mimic postures and then wishing for kung fu which will never happen. IE: One simply cannot do Hung Gar and expect to have the Wing Chun body as above.

[TenTigers]

Nope. That was simply one aspect of kiu sao development and usage. Certainly not the whole
.as far as being able to cultivate different types of ging,, many systems do this. I think you are extremely knowledgeable of your one branch of wck, which is fine, but you lack experience/understanding of other arts, which makes your comments regarding them invalid. _

@

[Hendrik]

Nope. That was simply one aspect of kiu sao development and usage.

Certainly not the whole
.as far as being able to cultivate different types of ging,, many systems do this.




I think you are extremely knowledgeable of your one branch of wck, which is fine,

but you lack experience/understanding of other arts, which makes your comments regarding them invalid. _



@




my previous posts provide three youtubes.

the first one is a Famous Hung Gar master describing the Uniqueness of Hung gar to TV interview. In the interview, he clearly describe and shows what is Hung gar and hung gar's uniqueness.

The second and third youtube show different body conditioning type ( Fujin White Crane and Emei Snake ) of TCMA to build and supporting the particular art needed.


That is what the Kung of TCMA refer to. the style always has to be supported by a unique Kung. As it said, TRaining fist without training in Kung, it is just empty training. Thus, Kung is the engine of the art. investigating the Kung of the art will lead one know what the art is about. also to really master the art.



If you disagree with me, you are welcome to show evidences which support your view. One needs to speak with facts.



also, could you explain, how is a person who is training and condition physically with continuous tension in Hung gar can suddently switch to White Crane's joints power engine which cannot be developed with Hung gar's continuous tension type of Kung?




Can you explain

how is
this Hung Gar of Lam Jo since you have brought it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXsjYyrMgLQ&feature=related


to have this white crane engine in Fujian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkxjLaiUnE&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, the "kungs" are something that WC and HK DO share.
The OP was basically about the CRANE in HK and how it compares to the WC system.
Not about the Hung systems overall.

[Hendrik]

Actually, the "kungs" are something that WC and HK DO share.

The OP was basically about the CRANE in HK and how it compares to the WC system.
Not about the Hung systems overall.



Kung means engine cultivation.

every art has their Kung.

HK, CLF, WC, Taiji, Xingyi...... all have their Kung type.

HK and WC doenst share the same type of Kung.


Crane motion in HK is Crane motion in HK. Crane motion in HK is not Crane motion in Fujian. may be HK has WC influence but that is different as HK= WC.




HK core in their 12 kiu sau.



WC of Fujian core in

On Inch Jing Join Power

The following is in details. and HK doesnt seem to do this and dont cultivate this way.

---------------------------

………永春白鶴拳以 “ 寸勁節力 “ 見稱，能集中全身之力，於一剎那間發出，達到最好的持擊效果。要求力從胸起如雷從地發，蓄於身腰，發於臂手 。……..

……..雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成昭陽手，分成三節，肩至肘為內節，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；………

圈手入側門，坐節沉肘，肩墮；成昭陽手，手入即身入；不用僵力。

三) 兩手昭陽、吞吐節力：雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘關節為中節， 腕關節為尾節，要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。雙手來去出力 發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)，收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離」。練習時與 肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力，勁達指尖。 出手時節中隨身與胯同向，不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。

-----------------------------


anyone can dig out the old writing of HK and compare with the above writing of Fujian WC.

Again, let the facts speak for itself.

[Mulong]

Soulfist, didn’t I say oral history/myth; I thought I did. Meaning that it is open to interpretation, right?

Indeed, hong'huhng uses different jin/ging精; sadly, not all exponents/shifu are aware of them.

[Hendrik]

Indeed, hong'huhng uses different jin/ging精; sadly, not all exponents/shifu are aware of them.



if you belive so,

than why dont you post out a list of where and which set of Hung gar cultivate the Jin of Fujian WC?


list down in details which classical Hung gar set cultivate which type of Jin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

HK and WC doenst share the same type of Kung.

And you know this for a fact since you have compared EVERY system of HK and every system of WC?
Ah Hendrick...this isn't the WC forum dude, people here don't sip the same water they do over there.
:D

[Mulong]

Hendrik, sadly, there is no shifu/exponent on YouTube that does to my knowledge. However, I personally work on baihejin (白鶴精) patterns and actually one of my students has worked on this particular subject with Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming.

To add, I have done my research on this particular jin within Five Ancestors style.

Hong, possess the ability to wrapped the tendon which some white crane school do. You must take into account that they are a few different school out there of white crane in China & Taiwan; hence, each one plays it different.

Getting back to the notion of wrapping the tendon is used to generate energy at close range by twisting/rotating the forearm to issue the energy.

Then there is theory of spitting and swallowing theory of generating energy which consists of opening and closing the second dantian with the lower lumbar.

If you like we can add silk reeling drill in generating energy too?

If I may say, I’m no new newbie; I’m conscious what I’m saying… ;)

[TenTigers]

That is the misunderstanding. Only some sections aand movements are performed under tension. Continuous tension refers to within a specific movement and certainly not throughout the entire form
In fact, in tiet sien kuen there is particular attention paid on the release x
:

[TenTigers]

...they're all famous masters

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, sadly, there is no shifu/exponent on YouTube that does to my knowledge. However, I personally work on baihejin (白鶴精) patterns and actually one of my students has worked on this particular subject with Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming.

To add, I have done my research on this particular jin within Five Ancestors style.

Hong, possess the ability to wrapped the tendon which some white crane school do. You must take into account that they are a few different school out there of white crane in China & Taiwan; hence, each one plays it different.

Getting back to the notion of wrapping the tendon is used to generate energy at close range by twisting/rotating the forearm to issue the energy.

Then there is theory of spitting and swallowing theory of generating energy which consists of opening and closing the second dantian with the lower lumbar.

If you like we can add silk reeling drill in generating energy too?

If I may say, I’m no new newbie; I’m conscious what I’m saying… ;)



for me, it doesnt have to go very far.

just ask the question,


do HK does the following classical Fujian WC core?


永春白鶴拳以 “ 寸勁節力 “ 見稱，能集中全身之力，於一剎那間發出，達到最好的持擊效果。要求力從胸起如雷從地發，蓄於身 腰，發於臂手 。……..

……..雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成昭陽手，分成三節，肩至肘為內節，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到 內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；………

圈手入側門，坐節沉肘，肩墮；成昭陽手，手入即身入；不用僵力。

三) 兩手昭陽、吞吐節力：雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘 關節為中節， 腕關節為尾節，要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。 雙手來去出力 發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)，收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離 」。練習時與 肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力 ，勁達指尖。 出手時節中隨身與胯同向，不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。

[Minghequan]

Hendrik, As a matter of interest, what is the actual source of that shown below:


永春白鶴拳以 “ 寸勁節力 “ 見稱，能集中全身之力，於一剎那間發出，達到最好的持擊效果。要求力從胸起如雷從地發，蓄於身 腰，發於臂手 。……..

……..雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成昭陽手，分成三節，肩至肘為內節，肘關節為中節，腕關節為尾節，要做到 內節 如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；………

圈手入側門，坐節沉肘，肩墮；成昭陽手，手入即身入；不用僵力。

三) 兩手昭陽、吞吐節力：雙手沉肩、墜肘、坐腕成「昭陽手」，分成三節，肩至肘為內節(根節)，肘 關節為中節， 腕關節為尾節，要做到內節如鐵一般堅實，與肩身成一整體；中節吞墜，尾節如膠如漆，靈活多變。 雙手來去出力 發勁，出手時吐氣(吐)，收手時吸氣(吞)，一吞一吐互相配合無間，堅持「中門不讓，子午不離 」。練習時與 肩、頭、背、胯、膝要貫串一氣，互相呼應，如有橡筋互相牽引、拉扯，吞肩坐節(墜肘)，發胛力 ，勁達指尖。 出手時節中隨身與胯同向，不可縮入開出，手節對膝，承接全身各處之力。

Can you please provide information as to where you found this?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, As a matter of interest, what is the actual source of that shown below:



Can you please provide information as to where you found this?


Got it from Fujian WC books.

Here are some more. These are public stuffs. nothing secret.



<白鶴仙師祖傳真法> 中的 <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳…招陽、……]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。…….這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法，當是當時 所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]……。

[TenTigers]

Could you please translate?

[Mulong]

Hendrik, indeed, translate, because I can do the same:

查拳含有静止耗时的桩功练习，静力素质通过这样的锻炼， [练习筋骨皮，坚固外形，也能有效地提高肌肉的张力与神经 [约机能水平。腿部支撑人身体的重量，下肢肌肉占人体的 增加下肢的力量是提高技术水平的重要手段。在套路中，：同姿势的静止动作和平衡动作，需要在一定的时间内控 制 这对力量、耐力提出一定要求。在训练中，要做到动迅静因而必须要有快慢相间的控制力。

[Mulong]

Hendrik, honestly don’t be a little fudger now; if you have something to share make it accessible to other; aren’t you able to do so, because I can.

Red-crowned crane’s immortal teacher ancestors pass-on the true method.

Middle structural

Square/up right, seven variant of white crane fifteen powers which contains dropping, chopping, fist incur positive (yang); Fifteen potential method and indicate how action and meaning of the offensive and defensive…

However, I wouldn’t waste my time on this, because I have other things to translate…

[Minghequan]

Hendrick,

It's best and good practice to cite the source of the items you are re-publishing here. Could you give an actual reference to which "Fujian WC books" you have taken this from and the author/publisher of same???

[TenTigers]

Well, since no one is mentioning the elephant in the room, I guess it's, up to me:
Hendrick,and anyone else who insist on posting text in Hanzi-Without providing the translation, KNOCK IT OFF!
Realize this: What you are doing is (besides being pompous) extremely rude.
If you are so lacking in simple social skills to understand this, then they shouldn't.be participating on a public forum.
Because it isn't really participating , is it?

[Hendrik]

Hendrick,

It's best and good practice to cite the source of the items you are re-publishing here.

Could you give an actual reference to which "Fujian WC books" you have taken this from and the author/publisher of same???




As I have cite the name of the ancient book in the previous post of mine.
<白鶴仙師祖傳真法> which you some how didnt see.
you can start with that.


since you are a Minghe guy, show my posts' writing to your contact in China I am sure they will be able to point you to the proper direction. it is just a common WC writting for Fujin WC practioner passed down by the ancestors. I would not go into details and long story here.


or even those who knows Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming. Show it to him and he will sure be able to help giving direction.

For me, discussing Fujian WC got to go to this root level.

[Mulong]

Rik, we weren’t worthy of a response, because we are huhng men.:D

[Firehawk4]

I got some Fujian Crane Kung Fu books in Chinese for sale that I got from Hong Kong from CS Tang 1 is from a Sifu NG Hong a rare private book .

[hskwarrior]

hung men for life! :D

[Minghequan]

TenTigers wrote:

Well, since no one is mentioning the elephant in the room, I guess it's, up to me:
Hendrick,and anyone else who insist on posting text in Hanzi-Without providing the translation, KNOCK IT OFF!
Realize this: What you are doing is (besides being pompous) extremely rude.
If you are so lacking in simple social skills to understand this, then they shouldn't.be participating on a public forum.
Because it isn't really participating , is it?

Totally agree. I can post away forever heaps of Hanzi without translation. That would just make it look like I am trying to show my "self-superiority" and so-called "knowledge" over that of others. To do so it is silly and self-glorifying.

Hendrick, as I understand it you are a Wing Chun guy correct? Please tell me what training you have done in Fuzhou Fujian White Crane???

[Minghequan]

Firehawk wrote

I got some Fujian Crane Kung Fu books in Chinese for sale that I got from Hong Kong from CS Tang 1 is from a Sifu NG Hong a rare private book .

Firehawk,

Please give me more info on these books, copies of the covers, who by, what they cover, prices etc. my email:

baihe@whitecranefist.com

[Hendrik]

Totally agree. I can post away forever heaps of Hanzi without translation. That would just make it look like I am trying to show my "self-superiority" and so-called "knowledge" over that of others. To do so it is silly and self-glorifying.

Hendrick, as I understand it you are a Wing Chun guy correct? Please tell me what training you have done in Fuzhou Fujian White Crane???


1,
you want to investigate Beetoven music, get a copy of his real music. you want to investigate real Fujian Crane, Go to the source, even the Japanese karate ka go for Hanzi as it is.

What is using the source got to do with self superiority? instead of appreciate some one shows the source and the direction to deep reseach?


2, I dont do Fuzhou Crane.

[TenTigers]

1,
you want to investigate Beetoven music, get a copy of his real music. you want to investigate real Fujian Crane, Go to the source, even the Japanese karate ka go for Hanzi as it is.

What is using the source got to do with self superiority? instead of appreciate some one shows the source and the direction to deep reseach?


2, I dont do Fuzhou Crane.

Going to the source is fine. Responding by posting said source without a translation is not.
Why do you not get this?

[Hendrik]

Going to the source is fine. Responding by posting said source without a translation is not.
Why do you not get this?


Go read you previous posts,
beside attacking me with all means, what have you contribute in this thread?

This is a forum with lots of people read Chinese. This is a public discussion forum, not a forum to serve you only ; no one is obligate to teach you on anything you dont know.

if you are sincere and like to learn you can always ask others politely to help you, instead of keep doing personal attack and complaining. Who the hell with help you with those type of personal attack and demanding attitude. it is you who dont know not others. so get your position clear.

Not to mention, those who be able to clearly explain the original writting of Fujian White Crane will be some one who really know the subject; and the in depth material cannot be learn in the web or understand via just reading some translation in a forum. So, if one know it one know it if one dont it is a years long project learning from those who knows. it is not an easy topic at all.

[TenTigers]

Dude, you have some serious issues.
one-l did not attack you, I simply pointed out that you were being extremely rude and condescending.
Two-simply because you don't agree withj_ my viewpoints, does not mean that I am not contributing to the discussion. You need to check your ego...seriously.
In fact, by posting on an ENGLISH SPEAKING FORUM in hanzi without providing a translation,
It is YOU who is not contributing to the discussion.
Your behavior on this forum is inexcusable.
Not an attack, just a statement of fact

[Minghequan]

1,
you want to investigate Beetoven music, get a copy of his real music. you want to investigate real Fujian Crane, Go to the source, even the Japanese karate ka go for Hanzi as it is.

What is using the source got to do with self superiority? instead of appreciate some one shows the source and the direction to deep reseach?


2, I dont do Fuzhou Crane.

Original Beethoven (as opposed to your "beetoven" - sic)??? I didn't know that original recordings of his music was available on CD!

What knowledge of Nihon Karate and or Uchinadi do you have? Have you trained in either of these forms? Does this knowledge include "Hakutsuru?"

You don't do Fujian Fuzhou Crane? then why do you offer comment on same with some "form" of authority? Is this not a little self-aggrandizing and disrepectful to those who may?


This is a forum with lots of people read Chinese. This is a public discussion forum, not a forum to serve you only ; no one is obligate to teach you on anything you dont know.

if you are sincere and like to learn you can always ask others politely to help you, instead of keep doing personal attack and complaining. Who the hell with help you with those type of personal attack and demanding attitude. it is you who dont know not others. so get your position clear.

Not to mention, those who be able to clearly explain the original writting of Fujian White Crane will be some one who really know the subject; and the in depth material cannot be learn in the web or understand via just reading some translation in a forum. So, if one know it one know it if one dont it is a years long project learning from those who knows. it is not an easy topic at all.

Again you imply that you have some knowledge of Fuzhou / Fujian Crane yet you stated earlier that you "don't do Fuzhou Crane" ... I am a little confused then as to your actual connection to same and have to agree with Ten Tigers here.

You are posting Hanzi from God knows where (unverifiable) as if you have actual knowledge of the subject?

This is NOT a Chinese speaking forum. By and large the majority who post here do so in English. Ten Tigers has pointed that out. So to continue to post just Hanzi without proper translation is simply a case of you trying to "show your so-called self superiority". It is demeaning to others and certainly NOT the way to make friends and influence people.

I'm not trying to be a smart guy here but your attitude is somewhat unbecoming. Please try to be a little less of a "full cup" and respect others. Then they will, in return, respect you.

[Minghequan]

Hendrick,

You cited the book "白鶴仙師祖傳真法" as being the source of the Hanzi posted by yourself.

Can you provide a copy of the front of said book, the name of it's author and publisher and the ISBN please?

I await your reply.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, since no one is mentioning the elephant in the room, I guess it's, up to me:
Hendrick,and anyone else who insist on posting text in Hanzi-Without providing the translation, KNOCK IT OFF!
Realize this: What you are doing is (besides being pompous) extremely rude.
If you are so lacking in simple social skills to understand this, then they shouldn't.be participating on a public forum.
Because it isn't really participating , is it?

This is Hendrick's MO, well know in the WC forum.
LOL !

[sanjuro_ronin]

As
Go read you previous posts,
beside attacking me with all means, what have you contribute in this thread?

This is a forum with lots of people read Chinese. This is a public discussion forum, not a forum to serve you only ; no one is obligate to teach you on anything you dont know.

if you are sincere and like to learn you can always ask others politely to help you, instead of keep doing personal attack and complaining. Who the hell with help you with those type of personal attack and demanding attitude. it is you who dont know not others. so get your position clear.

Not to mention, those who be able to clearly explain the original writting of Fujian White Crane will be some one who really know the subject; and the in depth material cannot be learn in the web or understand via just reading some translation in a forum. So, if one know it one know it if one dont it is a years long project learning from those who knows. it is not an easy topic at all.

As usual, NO ONE is attacking you Hendrick.
It's just that, as usual, you don't know what you are talking about BUT think you because you can, supposedly, read Chinese.
It doesn't work for you in WC forum and won't work for you here.

[bawang]

This is Hendrick's MO, well know in the WC forum.
LOL !

after a simple search on chinese google, hendrik actually copy and pastes his "insider chiense info" from blogs, random websites.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, there's a lot of small minds on the internet looking for a handjob so they an finally go out and face the day.

meh.

I agree that posting chinese texts without translation is ultra-douchey and super lame. It's a superiorty complex usually driven by having a tiny wang, no talent and chronic haltosis.

Beware!

[Hendrik]

Hendrick,

You cited the book "白鶴仙師祖傳真法" as being the source of the Hanzi posted by yourself.

Can you provide a copy of the front of said book, the name of it's author and publisher and the ISBN please?

I await your reply.


The is no ISBN.

白鶴仙師祖傳真法 is the ancient 1700 classical text all the White Crane of Fujian people knows and refer to. It is one of the bible of White Crane of Fujian.

Those who really study White Crane of Fujian including the Japanese Karate car all using these as the core.

So, from my understanding, to study White Crane seriously one needs to know and study these classic with some White Crane teacher. It is a very deep subject.

[Hendrik]

To those who is serious with White Crane investigation.

I have post these





WC of Fujian core in

On Inch Jing Join Power

The following is in details. and HK doesnt seem to do this and dont cultivate this way.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1126331&postcount=16


as it has mention it is Inch Jing Join power so one knows what it is in a brief summary of what it is.


also



since you are a Minghe guy, show my posts' writing to your contact in China I am sure they will be able to point you to the proper direction. it is just a common WC writting for Fujin WC practioner passed down by the ancestors. I would not go into details and long story here.


or even those who knows Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming. Show it to him and he will sure be able to help giving direction.


It is an in depth subject. I can only give you the direction and the material. the rest you need to work with some one who has mastered the subject.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Minghequan,

You can buy 《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》(The Authentic Transmissions of the Baihe Ancestral Masters) through this link:

http://www.sanmin.com.tw/page-product.asp?pf_id=99D155e10w103s7g104V69u113l129uO FfJOi182LoB

Sanmin is an internet bookshop based in Taiwan. The book is the second of the six classics of Baihequan listed in the book with the ISBN you are looking for showed below.

古典白鶴拳譜（六冊）
I S B N：9867822625
I S B N 13：9789867822628
作 者：蘇瀛漢；蘇君毅　校注
裝訂： 平裝
出版社：逸文出版
出版日：2004/08/01

貳、《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》一書，原稿為一九六三年秋先師潘公瑞蕩拿給的右手抄本，同時還帶來一冊《白鶴拳家 正法》，余謹受命恭錄以存。一九八三年八月，先師家迴祿，一切焚毀罄盡，二書亦在其中，豈不惜哉！經考證， 本書為清乾隆中期永春白鶴拳第四、五代傳人所著，與《永春鄭禮叔教傳拳法》一書同為較早期成書的白鶴拳經拳 譜，惜作者已無考。

《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》一書，對永春白鶴拳進行了綜合性的理論總結，對動靜風雨、子午端正、剛柔虛實、全身五 肢用勢出力、對人接勢、步名勢法都進行重點的概述。著墨處在於對人入勢交接的實際應用，既是簡單明瞭的理論 指導，又是具體攻防的技法闡釋，更是實戰技擊的心法要旨。而內中的《方七娘白鶴拳十五勢》則是比較早期的基 本勢法練習，與《永春鄭禮叔教傳拳法》中的十二法度練習和《自述切要條文》中的二十四閃法互相媲美，勢法輝 映，各具特色。此書內容簡潔，樸實無華，由實際意義，值得讀者一讀。誠如原作者所言：「賢者情理自明，學者 壯年養性，能守斯語，著意參求，可保進步，無虛此法。」白鶴拳之功法價值，於此可見，故曰：持之以恆，必有 好處。

Sorry I don't have the time to do a proper translation, below is a Google version to give you some rough idea of the book, very messy but it is the best I can do:

II, "Crane cents Shizu Fax Law", a book manuscript for the fall of 1963 showed the first swing of the right division Pangong Rui manuscripts, but also bring a "Dhamma crane boxing family," I would like to record ordered Christine to keep. August 1983, Lu and teacher back home, they exhaust the lump everything burned, two books have in them, would not Xizai! After research, the book is the mid-Qing Dynasty Wing Chun White Crane boxing fourth Five successor book, and "to teach Wing Chun Cheng Li-tert-pass boxing," a book with a book for the crane earlier by boxing boxing spectrum, but unfortunately the author is no longer test.

"Crane cents Shizu Fax Law", a book on Wing Chun White Crane boxing for a comprehensive summary of the theory of static and dynamic wind and rain, Meridian upright, rigid actual situation, with the potential to contribute to the body five limb, then the potential of people, potential step method were have to focus on an overview. Dwell in that the transfer of people into the potential practical applications, both simple and clear theoretical guidance, but also the interpretation of specific offensive and defensive techniques, martial art is actual substance of the Heart. The inside of the "Fang Qiniang crane fist fifteen potential" is more basic potential of early law practice, and "to teach Wing Chun Zheng Li Shu Chuan boxing" in the testimony of twelve exercises and "readme Qieyao provisions" in the 24 flash method comparable to one another, embraced the potential method, with different features. Book is concise, plain, from the practical significance, worthy of the reader reading. As the original author said: "The Sage is self-evident reason, scholars prime cultivation, to keep Sri Lankan language, deliberately seeking participation can ensure progress, this method is not virtual." Crane Fist of the value of the power law, this can be seen, twenty years before: perseverance , must be good.

[bawang]

1963 is not very "ancient".

hendrik fraud fails again

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets return to the subject of the thread, please and thank you.

What we have here is a case of "close but not exactly" when comparing the Crane of White Crane ( though no one has specified WHICH WC we are comparing too, so I am taking WC in general) with the Crane in Hung Kuen.
I have seen some WC that was close and others that were not and it's just really that simple and no need to dwell on stuff that is simply subjective and to which we really don't have the answer but just theories with no way to prove them correct.

If one Master's HK may have a crane that is more "white cranish" it may simply be because that master or one before him, had more experience in a type of WC, that's all.

Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[extrajoseph]

To be fair to Henrik, the manuscript was given in 1963, but it could be much older.

原稿為一九六三年秋先師潘公瑞蕩拿給的右手抄本 - "The original manuscript came from the right-hand copy given by Deceased Master Pan Rui-Dang in the Autumn of 1963."

[Hendrik]

Hi Minghequan,

You can buy 《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》(The Authentic Transmissions of the Baihe Ancestral Masters) through this link:

http://www.sanmin.com.tw/page-product.asp?pf_id=99D155e10w103s7g104V69u113l129uO FfJOi182LoB

Sanmin is an internet bookshop based in Taiwan. The book is the second of the six classics of Baihequan listed in the book with the ISBN you are looking for showed below.

古典白鶴拳譜（六冊）
I S B N：9867822625
I S B N 13：9789867822628
作 者：蘇瀛漢；蘇君毅　校注
裝訂： 平裝
出版社：逸文出版
出版日：2004/08/01

貳、《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》一書，原稿為一九六三年秋先師潘公瑞蕩拿給的右手抄本，同時還帶來一冊《白鶴拳家 正法》，余謹受命恭錄以存。一九八三年八月，先師家迴祿，一切焚毀罄盡，二書亦在其中，豈不惜哉！經考證， 本書為清乾隆中期永春白鶴拳第四、五代傳人所著，與《永春鄭禮叔教傳拳法》一書同為較早期成書的白鶴拳經拳 譜，惜作者已無考。

《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》一書，對永春白鶴拳進行了綜合性的理論總結，對動靜風雨、子午端正、剛柔虛實、全身五 肢用勢出力、對人接勢、步名勢法都進行重點的概述。著墨處在於對人入勢交接的實際應用，既是簡單明瞭的理論 指導，又是具體攻防的技法闡釋，更是實戰技擊的心法要旨。而內中的《方七娘白鶴拳十五勢》則是比較早期的基 本勢法練習，與《永春鄭禮叔教傳拳法》中的十二法度練習和《自述切要條文》中的二十四閃法互相媲美，勢法輝 映，各具特色。此書內容簡潔，樸實無華，由實際意義，值得讀者一讀。誠如原作者所言：「賢者情理自明，學者 壯年養性，能守斯語，著意參求，可保進步，無虛此法。」白鶴拳之功法價值，於此可見，故曰：持之以恆，必有 好處。

Sorry I don't have the time to do a proper translation, below is a Google version to give you some rough idea of the book, very messy but it is the best I can do:

II, "Crane cents Shizu Fax Law", a book manuscript for the fall of 1963 showed the first swing of the right division Pangong Rui manuscripts, but also bring a "Dhamma crane boxing family," I would like to record ordered Christine to keep. August 1983, Lu and teacher back home, they exhaust the lump everything burned, two books have in them, would not Xizai! After research, the book is the mid-Qing Dynasty Wing Chun White Crane boxing fourth Five successor book, and "to teach Wing Chun Cheng Li-tert-pass boxing," a book with a book for the crane earlier by boxing boxing spectrum, but unfortunately the author is no longer test.

"Crane cents Shizu Fax Law", a book on Wing Chun White Crane boxing for a comprehensive summary of the theory of static and dynamic wind and rain, Meridian upright, rigid actual situation, with the potential to contribute to the body five limb, then the potential of people, potential step method were have to focus on an overview. Dwell in that the transfer of people into the potential practical applications, both simple and clear theoretical guidance, but also the interpretation of specific offensive and defensive techniques, martial art is actual substance of the Heart. The inside of the "Fang Qiniang crane fist fifteen potential" is more basic potential of early law practice, and "to teach Wing Chun Zheng Li Shu Chuan boxing" in the testimony of twelve exercises and "readme Qieyao provisions" in the 24 flash method comparable to one another, embraced the potential method, with different features. Book is concise, plain, from the practical significance, worthy of the reader reading. As the original author said: "The Sage is self-evident reason, scholars prime cultivation, to keep Sri Lankan language, deliberately seeking participation can ensure progress, this method is not virtual." Crane Fist of the value of the power law, this can be seen, twenty years before: perseverance , must be good.



This is great! thanks!

[Hendrik]

1963 is not very "ancient".

hendrik fraud fails again


Have you read

After research, the book is the mid-Qing Dynasty Wing Chun White Crane boxing fourth Five successor book, and "to teach Wing Chun Cheng Li-tert-pass boxing," a book with a book for the crane earlier by boxing boxing spectrum, but unfortunately the author is no longer test.


經考證， 本書為清乾隆中期永春白鶴拳第四、五代傳人所著，與《永春鄭禮叔教傳拳法》一書同為較早期成書 的白鶴拳經拳 譜，惜作者已無考。

[sanjuro_ronin]

The subject of THIS thread is IF the crane in HK is different than "typical' White crane.
So, unless those books state anything about THAT AND someone is going to translate them for this ENGLISH website, I don't see the point of them or this thread continuing.

[bawang]

if you close this thread, then hendrik wins.

[PM]

side note: White Crane and Hung Kyun connection are not necessarily (just) about crane section in "tiger crane double form set".

i am talking about same legends, same roots (Fuian), old Hung Kyun (eg. saam jin Hung kyun), old Wing Cheun (eg. Baan Jung Wing Cheun). some branches of today's White Crane are very different form today's Hung Kyun, some a have a lot of common - it depends what you want to see, similarities or differences.

there is imho a reason why Lam Saiwing had a "White Crane Immortal" (Bak Hok Sin Si) ancestral table in his school.

[Hendrik]

there is imho a reason why Lam Saiwing had a "White Crane Immortal" (Bak Hok Sin Si) ancestral table in his school.


Can anyone confirm Lam actually has that in his school? if yes, then Lam himself is also doing Some type of White Crane . that cannot applied to all HK root but his own practice or his school.
similar to people can do both Shao lin and BJJ these days.







old Wing Cheun (eg. Baan Jung Wing Cheun)

what is Baan Jung Wing Cheun? why is it "old" Wing Cheun?

[Minghequan]

Hendrick wrote 08-20-2011, 09:55 AM

Got it from Fujian WC books.

Here are some more. These are public stuffs. nothing secret.


Hendrick wrote:

The (sic) is no ISBN.

白鶴仙師祖傳真法 is the ancient 1700 classical text all the White Crane of Fujian people knows and refer to. It is one of the bible of White Crane of Fujian.


Extrajoseph wrote:

Hi Minghequan,

You can buy 《白鶴仙師祖傳真法》(The Authentic Transmissions of the Baihe Ancestral Masters) through this link:

http://www.sanmin.com.tw/page-produc...9uOFfJOi182LoB

Sanmin is an internet bookshop based in Taiwan. The book is the second of the six classics of Baihequan listed in the book with the ISBN you are looking for showed below.

古典白鶴拳譜（六冊）
I S B N：9867822625
I S B N 13：9789867822628
作 者：蘇瀛漢；蘇君毅　校注
裝訂： 平裝
出版社：逸文出版
出版日：2004/08/01

Hmmm. Having a little trouble following you here Hendrick. First you come out and say your Hanzhi is from "public stuffs (sic), nothing secret". Then you write:


"白鶴仙師祖傳真法 is the ancient 1700 classical text all the White Crane of Fujian"

Which then implies that it's not so public. Then you state there there is no ISBN when clearly there is.

Hendrick, this book one of 6 on offer for quite a few years now on Plum Publications. I know, I purchased the boxed set some many, many years ago:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/bk_whitecraneboxed.htm

Have you got the book or books in mention? If so, where did you get them?

The reason why discussing this matters to this thread is that for some reason hendrick has adopted the position of being somewaht of an authority on Fuzhou / Fujian White Crane and to a lesser degree Hong Kong White Crane despite admitting that he does not do either the Fuzhou or Hong Kong Crane. Hendrick has said he's a Wing Chun practitioner. Nothing wrong with that. He should however stick to basing his comments on that which he does and not that which by his own admission he has had nothing to do with.

Secondly, posting away in Hanzhi copied and pasted from some web sites (and most likely translated by Google) without naming the source and author and the English translation of same on what is predominately an English speaking discussion forum smacks of self-importance, the act of someone saying "Look at me! I can post Hanzhi like its special knowledge held only by me!"

Hendrick, once more I put these questions to you in the hope you will not continue to disregard them and that you will offer a reply:

1/. What knowledge of Nihon Karate and or Uchinadi do you have? Have you trained in either of these forms? Does this knowledge include "Hakutsuru?"

2/. You don't do Fujian Fuzhou Crane? Again you imply that you have some knowledge of Fuzhou / Fujian Crane yet you stated earlier that you "don't do Fuzhou Crane". May I ask then why do you offer comment on same with some "form" of authority? Is this not a little self-aggrandizing and disrepectful to those who may?

[TenTigers]

It seems that hung kuen utilzes crane from more than one source. Some techniques ate relatet too Hap Gar while others are from Fukien Bak Hok.

[Minghequan]

I've little knowledge on Hung Kuen other than a very good friend who teaches this art. I will contact him for his views.

Would I be right in suggesting that maybe Hung Kuen is a mid to long range form?

[Hendrik]

Hmmm. Having a little trouble following you here Hendrick. First you come out and say your Hanzhi is from "public stuffs (sic), nothing secret". Then you write:

Which then implies that it's not so public. Then you state there there is no ISBN when clearly there is.

Hendrick, this book one of 6 on offer for quite a few years now on Plum Publications. I know, I purchased the boxed set some many, many years ago:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/bk_whitecraneboxed.htm

Have you got the book or books in mention? If so, where did you get them?


In the old common Chinese way, people who study white crane passed around hand copies of White Crane writting/ books. these writting are not secrets at all.

I have no idea some one published these books with ISBN. and that is great.





The reason why discussing this matters to this thread is that for some reason hendrick has adopted the position of being somewaht of an authority on Fuzhou / Fujian White Crane and to a lesser degree Hong Kong White Crane despite admitting that he does not do either the Fuzhou or Hong Kong Crane.

Hendrick has said he's a Wing Chun practitioner. Nothing wrong with that. He should however stick to basing his comments on that which he does and not that which by his own admission he has had nothing to do with.



Secondly, posting away in Hanzhi copied and pasted from some web sites (and most likely translated by Google) without naming the source and author and the English translation of same on what is predominately an English speaking discussion forum smacks of self-importance, the act of someone saying "Look at me! I can post Hanzhi like its special knowledge held only by me!"





Kong Suk, a well known White Crane master in Asia has help me to identity the Pre 1800 White Crane of Fujian core which is embeded in Wing Chun. I come to know the core of pre 1800 White Crane and its classical writting.


In the late 1600, Fujian White Crane core power generation is called Inch Jin joint power. this Inch Jin Joint power is later evolve into Wing Chun Kuen's Short jin or today's Sun punch.

in my previous post in this thread, I have mention this Inch Jin joint power and post the Classical Chinese description of this Inch Jin Joint power. We can track the core of White Crane of Fujian since mid 1600. we know what it is.

I am sharing what I know, trying to reveal as much information. certainly I will not have time to doing all the translation or teaching because those are a life time work for those who is interested in. I can only give a small taste on what it is.


In comparing two different TCMA such as Hung Gar and White Crane, one compare the ancient core structure, power generation, and momentum. That how my posts are presenting.


You can view my posts any way you like. I am ok with it. because I am not going to change your mind set.









Hendrick, once more I put these questions to you in the hope you will not continue to disregard them and that you will offer a reply:

1/. What knowledge of Nihon Karate and or Uchinadi do you have? Have you trained in either of these forms? Does this knowledge include "Hakutsuru?"

2/. You don't do Fujian Fuzhou Crane? Again you imply that you have some knowledge of Fuzhou / Fujian Crane yet you stated earlier that you "don't do Fuzhou Crane". May I ask then why do you offer comment on same with some "form" of authority? Is this not a little self-aggrandizing and disrepectful to those who may?



i have never disregard you posts.

may be you want to re read my previous posts in this thread or the other thread on White Crane image.


My posts are based on the core of the art mention in the classical writting of Fujian White Crane which was taught by Fang Chi-Niang and her students in or earlier then 1700s . before lots of evolution happen.


your view is based on Name, form, authority..... etc
which is a very different direction from my focus: IE: what is written/record in the White Crane classical of 1700. to be specific: the original core structure, power generation, types of momentum of White Crane.


with this, I would say we travel in a different wave length, since you seems to not be able understand my view, please ignore my posts to cut unneccesary confusion for yourself and also I dont have to deal with all kind of question on autority....etc questions which I have no interest.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've little knowledge on Hung Kuen other than a very good friend who teaches this art. I will contact him for his views.

Would I be right in suggesting that maybe Hung Kuen is a mid to long range form?

That would be an incorrect assumption.
HK can and does fight very well, "inside a phone booth".
We drill short jing as well as the many "grappling" jings.

[PM]

Bio of Lau Jaam, by Jyu Yujai, student of Lam Saiwing:

"Next evening, Lau Jaam 劉湛 got packed his briefcase, along with sterling coin 15 cents. Taking 5 cents to purchase joss sticks, candle sticks etc. and the remaining 10 cents folded in a red envelope as the Bai Si gift. Everythings prepared, rushed to Saiwing gym. He entered into the hall, ignited the joss and candle sticks beneath the White Crane Ancestor's shrine (白鶴先師神位) bowed and offered worship."

(translated by Tony Ma)

---

and:

- no, Lam Saiwing did not practice any white crane system, no proof of that, this is much older tradition

- Baan Jung Wing Cheun is Red Boat Opera Wing Cheun, very well documented system of old Wing Cheun (Fung siuching) - compared to modern Fatsaan Wing Cheun (Yun Keisaan, Yiu Choi, Yip Man). current research in Chinaalso conculdes the White Crane/Wing Cheun relationship

check out the videos i have posted before and you will why i talk about the the Fujian roots. well, since that time lot of thigs were modified (WCH, Hun Kyun, different branches of White Crane... ), but i am talking about the roots, ok?

[Hendrik]

Bio of Lau Jaam, by Jyu Yujai, student of Lam Saiwing:

"Next evening, Lau Jaam 劉湛 got packed his briefcase, along with sterling coin 15 cents. Taking 5 cents to purchase joss sticks, candle sticks etc. and the remaining 10 cents folded in a red envelope as the Bai Si gift. Everythings prepared, rushed to Saiwing gym. He entered into the hall, ignited the joss and candle sticks beneath the White Crane Ancestor's shrine (白鶴先師神位) bowed and offered worship."

(translated by Tony Ma)

---

and:

- no, Lam Saiwing did not practice any white crane system, no proof of that, this is much older tradition

- Baan Jung Wing Cheun is Red Boat Opera Wing Cheun, very well documented system of old Wing Cheun (Fung siuching) - compared to modern Fatsaan Wing Cheun (Yun Keisaan, Yiu Choi, Yip Man). current research in Chinaalso conculdes the White Crane/Wing Cheun relationship

check out the videos i have posted before and you will why i talk about the the Fujian roots. well, since that time lot of thigs were modified (WCH, Hun Kyun, different branches of White Crane... ), but i am talking about the roots, ok?


1, ok. let's talk about root.

2, For Chinese, there is no reason to have a White Crane Ancestor's shrine unless one is the decendent of White Crane,
and does all other Hung Kuen school has that? if yes, there is a relationship, if no then it is Lam's own.


3, your clip shows a different type of structure core and power generation compare with the White Crane of Fujian such as embeded in this image.
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1123271&postcount=1

The White Crane structure and power generation core such as embeded in the above image is accord with an internal art Chinese classic NeiGong Jing 内功经 while your video clips do not do it this way.

on Neigong jing
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1117007&postcount=18


not to mention the Inch jin joints power of WC is the well know uniqueness since 1600's which is a different type of power compare with the power type uses in your clips.


As a rule of TCMA, forms can always evolve and creates however the Kung cultivation has to stay in the art. otherwise the art is no longer a live.

Similar to Chen Taiji's reel silk Gung Chen Taiji can modified and evolve their art different way but the reel silk Gung needs to always be there to cultivate Chen type of kung fu. White Crane kung fu also has a certain core type. So does Hung Gar. Chen taiji, White Crane of Fujian, and Hung gar in the mean time have very different core type.






4, Baan Jung Wing Cheun is Red Boat Opera Wing Cheun. who teaches this type of Wing Cheun?

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

No need to storm off like a petulant child just because I asked you some pretty basic questions. Mate all I'm trying to do is find the common ground upon which we can communicate regarding Fuzhou White Crane. I can't do that if I don't know what your actual experience of Fuzhou Crane is now can I?


IE: what is written/record in the White Crane classical of 1700.

Okay then please answer me this, how did you/do you come across such writings on the core structure of Fuzhou White Crane? Please share your resources!!!


Kong Suk, a well known White Crane master in Asia has help me to identity the Pre 1800 White Crane of Fujian core which is embeded in Wing Chun. I come to know the core of pre 1800 White Crane and its classical writting.

Cool. Perhaps you can tell me more about this Master (his name sounds Korean?) as my researches and connections (China etc) say they have never heard of him??? Where is he located? What form of Crane does he teach and can you put me in touch with him and his theories re: White Crane pre 1800?

節 力 (jieli) or Joint Power is a form of energy transmission that is well know to Fuzhou White Crane enthusiasts, more so the that of "Dog Shaking Jin" 狗抖勁.

Jieli is often best performed by my friend Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tang Jian Pai Bai He Quan Shi and his performance of the Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power

(永春白鶴拳)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC579DhVSTc&feature=player_embedded#!

This form shares a great deal with the Fang Qiniang Shou 方七娘手拳套

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/224/ronchinesepoems.jpg

This type of energy is vastly different to the expression of my friend Master Su YingHan 苏瀛汉 of the 永春怡云武术研究会 YongChun Wushu Research Society.

Hendrik, please continue and provide us with that answers to the very simple and non-invasive questions asked. I look forward to mutually interesting and beneficial discussion.

[Minghequan]

Sanjuro Ronin,

That would be an incorrect assumption.
HK can and does fight very well, "inside a phone booth".
We drill short jing as well as the many "grappling" jings.

Thanks mate. As stated, I know little of the Hung Kuen style other than that of my friend Shifu Anthony Kelly.

[HungKuenH]

I once had a discussion with someone who was upset about the white crane tablet in a hung school(白鶴先師神位)..the hung gar master yuen wing kwai had this in his school too..and also i was given that for my school signboard..apparantly the white crane served as a nickname as I got this statement from the one i had this discussion with : " My further search confirmed that The White Crane Fairy Master stands for Madam Fong Chat Neung(方七娘) who was considered one of the founder of Hung's School." so the white crane doesnt stand for the style but a person...

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

No need to storm off like a petulant child just because I asked you some pretty basic questions. Mate all I'm trying to do is find the common ground upon which we can communicate regarding Fuzhou White Crane. I can't do that if I don't know what your actual experience of Fuzhou Crane is now can I?

Okay then please answer me this, how did you/do you come across such writings on the core structure of Fuzhou White Crane? Please share your resources!!!



As I have told you in the other thread that we are different type of people and we look at things from different angle.

As all my previous posts, I am not talking about Fuzhou white crane which is an evolution of the original white crane of Fang Chi-Niang. I am talking the white Crane of Fang Chi-Niang and the classical writing based on Fang Chi-Niang's teaching in 1700.

You seems to think Fuzhou White Crane is everything of Fujian White Crane. I am talking the root of White Crane which even the Fuzhou White Crane follow. And what i am presenting is a common knowledge for the White Crane practitioners in my understanding.







Cool. Perhaps you can tell me more about this Master (his name sounds Korean?) as my researches and connections (China etc) say they have never heard of him??? Where is he located? What form of Crane does he teach and can you put me in touch with him and his theories re: White Crane pre 1800?



who are your researches and connections? are they Chinese?

Kong Suk is cantonese. Sifu Lee Kong who you are using his clip in your post live in Hong Kong and speak cantonese. That is how one called Sifu Lee Kong with respect. Kong Suk. Suk means uncle. So, it is Uncle Kong.

As for pre 1800 white crane.....ect. you obviously have not investigate the history on how White Crane evolve into Fuzhou and ....etc. my suggestion for you is to read Kong Suk's writing to get the information. sifu Lee Kong has written lots of good and details articles.





節 力 (jieli) or Joint Power is a form of energy transmission that is well know to Fuzhou White Crane enthusiasts, more so the that of "Dog Shaking Jin" 狗抖勁.


I am talking 寸劲节力 or inch Jin joints power of Fujian White Crane at 1683. you are talking "Dog Shaking Jin" 狗抖勁 of Chong Her which is an evolution after 1820.




Jieli is often best performed by my friend Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tang Jian Pai Bai He Quan Shi and his performance of the Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power

(永春白鶴拳)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC579DhVSTc&feature=player_embedded#!



again, same with the above, I am talking the type of White Crane power 1683 and you are posting a form.






Hendrik, please continue and provide us with that answers to the very simple and non-invasive questions asked. I look forward to mutually interesting and beneficial discussion.



I rather not saying more. and let you do your research since we are from different wave lenght and look at things with different wave lenght. my interest is only in technical.

[Hendrik]

I once had a discussion with someone who was upset about the white crane tablet in a hung school(白鶴先師神位)..the hung gar master yuen wing kwai had this in his school too..and also i was given that for my school signboard..apparantly the white crane served as a nickname as I got this statement from the one i had this discussion with : " My further search confirmed that The White Crane Fairy Master stands for Madam Fong Chat Neung(方七娘) who was considered one of the founder of Hung's School." so the white crane doesnt stand for the style but a person...


Great information.


In my opinion,

There are things I am not that clear on what is the relation or no relation between the martial art of Tien Die Hui or Hung Mun to Hung gar Kuen.

Fong Chat Neung or Fang Chi-Niang is obviously the main character in the Tien Die Hui or Hung Mun. as we can see the Crane tablet in Taiwan Tien Die Hui.

So, Yes, Fang is the founder of Hung's School as Hung Mun's martial art school. but is that Hung Mun means Hung Gar kuen? or things get mix up in the evolution?


from the structure, power generation, and momentum pure technical view, Hung Gar Kuen doesnt fit the Fang Chi-Niang's art's classical. for example the famous White Crane's Inch Jin joints power is distinctively not the type of power Hung Gar is using. What happen is the frame structure of White Crane is totally different and Hung Gar frame structure is not very likely capable of generate that type of power.

[PM]

- a lot of inch power in old Hung Kyun, where "inch bridge" is one of the most typical concepts, just check sets "Night Tiger Emerges From the Forest", "Three Extensions" or even "Iron Thread". have you practiced or seen any of those sets? i would certainly not say "totally different".

- yes, Hung Kyun was the martial arts of the Tin Dei Wui association

- White crane has many branches today, in some cases VERY different from each other, so it is hard to make a general statement. same as for Hung Kyun. anyway, many clues point to the same root of the two arts. never mind, i am not gonna repeat myself.

[Minghequan]

白鶴先師神位
I once had a discussion with someone who was upset about the white crane tablet in a hung school(白鶴先師神位)..the hung gar master yuen wing kwai had this in his school too..and also i was given that for my school signboard..apparantly the white crane served as a nickname as I got this statement from the one i had this discussion with : " My further search confirmed that The White Crane Fairy Master stands for Madam Fong Chat Neung(方七娘) who was considered one of the founder of Hung's School." so the white crane doesnt stand for the style but a person...

Crane & Teacher Tablets: Interesting to read this. The Fong Chat Neung is Fang Qiniang!!! This is fascinating! Thank you.


As I have told you in the other thread that we are different type of people and we look at things from different angle.

Grea. That's the wonderful thing about the human in nature and the Martial Arts ... we enjoy a common core yet have diverse views. Nothing wrong with that, It is something to be celebrated.



As all my previous posts, I am not talking about Fuzhou white crane which is an evolution of the original white crane of Fang Chi-Niang. I am talking the white Crane of Fang Chi-Niang and the classical writing based on Fang Chi-Niang's teaching in 1700.

You seems to think Fuzhou White Crane is everything of Fujian White Crane. I am talking the root of White Crane which even the Fuzhou White Crane follow. And what i am presenting is a common knowledge for the White Crane practitioners in my understanding.

Great again! Then please share what you know about the White Crane of 方七娘 (Fang Chi-Niang/Fang Qiniang) and her teaching in 1700!!! I am ready to hear ALL you have to say about her teachings and from where you received this information. Please Share!

Please undersrtand that several different sects of White Crane have different "origin" stories revolving around 方七娘 (Fang Chi-Niang/Fang Qiniang) and that which she taught so I would love to hear of your source for your information!!!


Kong Suk is cantonese. Sifu Lee Kong who you are using his clip in your post live in Hong Kong and speak cantonese. That is how one called Sifu Lee Kong with respect. Kong Suk. Suk means uncle. So, it is Uncle Kong.

As for pre 1800 white crane.....ect. you obviously doesnt investigate the history on how White Crane evolve into Fuzhou and ....etc. my suggestion for you is to read Kong Suk's writing to get the information. sifu Lee Kong has written lots of good and details articles.

Great then you know this great man! He has been very kind to me.

Have you read his article: "A Discussion on the Oral History and Development of (Fujian) Yongchun White Crane Boxing"??? This eight page article resplendent with great images and writing covers this very subject in great detail and depth.

If you have not read it, I can email you a copy.

Have you also read "The White Crane style of Lee Kong master in Hong Kong", "Origin of White Crane Style" and "The forms of Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tang Jian Pai Bai He Quan"

Why don't you please go ahead and send me an email with the articles you mentioned written by Shifu Lee Kong? My email is:

baihe@whitecranefist.com


I am talking the type of White Crane power 1683 and you are posting a form.

The form (Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power) is of Lee Kong and his joint power. What about it don't you agree with?


I rather not saying more. and let you do your research since we are from different wave lenght and look at things with different wave lenght. my interest is only in technical.

Why? Why won't you share? I am ready to hear of thse with a different appraoch to that of my own. This is an essential part of research, giving consideration to as many differnt views as one can. There is nothing wrong with this so please go ahead and share from your technical point of view ... but don't hold back on your information. I must however ask you to also cite your sources (as any good researcher worth their salt would naturally do). You can start straight away!!!

I'm not going away!

[Hendrik]

- a lot of inch power in old Hung Kyun, where "inch bridge" is one of the most typical concepts, just check sets "Night Tiger Emerges From the Forest", "Three Extensions" or even "Iron Thread". have you practiced or seen any of those sets? i would certainly not say "totally different".


we need to know what is the White Crane's inch jin joints power before making any type of conclusion.

Inch Jin jioints power is not an "inch bridge".





- yes, Hung Kyun was the martial arts of the Tin Dei Wui association


There are many sect in Tien Dei Wui, we know White Crane of Fujian is a major player of Tien Dei Wui and it is recorded in the history of China.

Hung Gar might be from one of the sect. But one needs to identify which sect.

also, to be within a sect of Tien Dei Wui doesnt mean the same type of martial art.

Hung Gar might later "import" some elements of Fujian White Crane and that is possible.





- White crane has many branches today, in some cases VERY different from each other, so it is hard to make a general statement.

same as for Hung Kyun. anyway, many clues point to the same root of the two arts. never mind, i am not gonna repeat myself.




As i point out from all my previous posts in this thread. we are talking 1680 white Crane, not today's white crane. 1680 white crane is a solid platform, today's white crane is an evolution after 1800.

and what is Hung Kuen looks like 1680? Does it exis in 1700? any documents? we need that to compare apple with apple.



according to the following on the Hung Kuen.


http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B4%AA%E6%8B%B3


老洪拳

又有南北地域之分。洪拳由元、明間陝西地方之拳術紅拳加上其他拳術演變而來，已有300多年的发展历史，是 清代南方民间秘密结社三合會(洪门)假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门由郑成功在臺灣创立的「金台山」開始， 在中國南方发展组织，练习武術，宣传反清复明思想。

南方洪拳以五形拳聞名，北方洪拳則以十（二）形拳（亦稱心意六合拳）傳出。





Hung Kuen is from Xia Xi of China and evolve with different arts to become Old Hung Kuen. it was practice in a sect of Hung Mun or Tien Tie Hui. Southern Hung Kuen is famous by its five shape/animal form......


1854年後，由於佛山瓊花會館被李文茂反清事件牽連，而被完全燒毀，此後洪拳在廣州演變成洪家拳。


after 1850 the burning of fine jade association Hung Kuen evolve to become Hung gar Kuen.



From the above, there is no direct Old Hung Kuen connection technically with White Crane of Fujian. the Crane of old Hung Kuen is from the five shape/animal form.


The only cross point the White Crane of Fujian and Old Hung Kuen has is the are both belongs to Hung Mun or Tien Tie Hui.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

Have you read his article: "A Discussion on the Oral History and Development of (Fujian) Yongchun White Crane Boxing"??? This eight page article resplendent with great images and writing covers this very subject in great detail and depth.

If you have not read it, I can email you a copy.

Have you also read "The White Crane style of Lee Kong master in Hong Kong", "Origin of White Crane Style" and "The forms of Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tang Jian Pai Bai He Quan"

Why don't you please go ahead and send me an email with the articles you mentioned written by Shifu Lee Kong? My email is:

baihe@whitecranefist.com

[Minghequan]

you need to know what is the White Crane's inch jin joints power before making any type of conclusion.

Then please go ahead and explain to myself and PM what your actual thoughts are on this. How do you define "White Crane's inch jin joints power"?

Also, the form (Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power) is of Lee Kong and his joint power. What about it don't you agree with?

[Hendrik]

Why? Why won't you share? I am ready to hear of thse with a different appraoch to that of my own. This is an essential part of research, giving consideration to as many differnt views as one can. There is nothing wrong with this so please go ahead and share from your technical point of view ... but don't hold back on your information. I must however ask you to also cite your sources (as any good researcher worth their salt would naturally do). You can start straight away!!!

I'm not going away!


Here is sifu Lee Kong's web. So anyone could look at his articles. it is him the expert not me.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_637866dd0100g32r.html

Best Regards

[Hendrik]

Then please go ahead and explain to myself and PM what your actual thoughts are on this. How do you define "White Crane's inch jin joints power"?

Also, the form (Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power) is of Lee Kong and his joint power. What about it don't you agree with?



1, The information of White Crane's inch jin joints power was presented in my previous post of this thread. Those who knows White Crane will recognized them. Those who dont know them is better to get a sifu to teach them. I am not the expert.


2, I have never comment on Kong Suk's set. please re read my previous posts .

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

The blog you posted a link to is not actually 100% written by Lee Kong but nonetheless interesting!

Do you want his direct email and contact details? I can supply you with these so you can communicate with him directly?

I have started a new thread in which we can share of our views, research and experiences within White Crane. I hope you will contribute in a free and not superior fashion.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1127998#post1127998

[omarthefish]

...

Jieli is often best performed by my friend Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tang Jian Pai Bai He Quan Shi and his performance of the Shi er jie dao 十二節力: 12 joints power
...

十二節力 is pronounced Shi er jie li

You got 刀/dao and 力/li confused. ;)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

The blog you posted a link to is not actually 100% written by Lee Kong but nonetheless interesting!

Do you want his direct email and contact details? I can supply you with these so you can communicate with him directly?

I have started a new thread in which we can share of our views, research and experiences within White Crane. I hope you will contribute in a free and not superior fashion.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1127998#post1127998


Thank you for the offer, later if I have a need I will PM you. Thanks!


Here is what it says in the blog


欢迎! 本博客的目的是介绍香港李刚师傅一系永春白鹤拳资料。

Welcome, this is a blog to introduce Sifu Lee Kong's Yong Chun White Crane Kung Fu.

islate1@yahoo.com


Thanks.

I rather not join that discussion because anything can be taken as free, confident, or superior depend on the reader.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

So you don't actually communicate with Shifu Lee Kong? Then how did he give you the articles you cited?


If your not actively going to contribute towards discussion in any postive manner, then please don't post at all.

I and I am sure many others here grow tired of you going around in circles chasing your own tail, saying a lot about nothing and contributing nothing at all to the discussions.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

So you don't actually communicate with Shifu Lee Kong? Then how did he give you the articles you cited?


If your not actively going to contribute towards discussion in any postive manner, then please don't post at all.

I and I am sure many others here grow tired of you going around in circles chasing your own tail, saying a lot about nothing and contributing nothing at all to the discussions.



1, Kong suk has help me. But, as any nice person, I thank you for your offer.

2, you know, you have you style and your frequency I am not for that. So, thanks no thanks.

3, This is a Hung Ga and White Crane discussion. so please let the discussion proceed without going off direction.

[Hendrik]

So, if we sum up

there is Hung Kuen which is related to 1650's Tien Tee Hui.
There is Hung Gar which is related to 1850 evolution.


There is White Crane of Fujian which is related to 1650 with Fang Chi-Niang and Taiwan.
There is White Crane of Fujian which is a post 1800 evolution which is related to today's White Crane.


For 1650's, Both Hung Kuen and White Crane of Fujian serve Tien Tee Hui.
We also know that the Crane of Hung Kuen is from the Five animal form instead of the White Crane of Fang Chi-Niang.

[TenTigers]

Yes, it is well known that the crane in hung-ga is from ng ying kuen. That is not the point. The crane section is an amalgamation of techniques brought into the set, in order to create the form as it stands. not the other way around. That is the point. The point of this discussion is an examination of these techniques and their possible origins
_

[Hendrik]

Yes, it is well known that the crane in hung-ga is from ng ying kuen. That is not the point.

The crane section is an amalgamation of techniques brought into the set, in order to create the form as it stands. not the other way around.


That is the point. The point of this discussion is an examination of these techniques and their possible origins
_





老洪拳

又有南北地域之分。洪拳由元、明間陝西地方之拳術紅拳加上其他拳術演變而來，已有300多年的 发展历史，是 清代南方民间秘密结社三合會(洪门)假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门由郑成功在臺灣创立的「金 台山」開始， 在中國南方发展组织，练习武術，宣传反清复明思想。

南方洪拳以五形拳聞名，北方洪拳則以十（二）形拳（亦稱心意六合拳）傳出。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B4%AA%E6%8B%B3




Brief translation:

Old Hung Kuen

Hung Kuen was originated from the Red Kuen of Xia Xi area of China and evolve with different arts to become Old Hung Kuen.

it was practice in a sect of Hung Mun or Tien Tie Hui. Southern Hung Kuen is famous by its five shape/animal form......



1854年後，由於佛山瓊花會館被李文茂反清事件牽連，而被完全燒毀，此後洪拳在廣州演變成洪家拳。

after 1854, the burning of jape flower association.... Hung Kuen in Kwan Chou evolve become Hung Gar Kuen.




後來林福成傳鐵線拳予黃飛鴻。開始有傳說稱洪（家）拳創始人是洪熙官。

Later on, Lam Fok Seng passed the Iron wire set to Wong Fei Hung, that is the begining of claiming Hung Gar is founder by Hung Hei Koon.


黃飛鴻（1847年－1924年）

Wong Fei Hung ( 1847 -- 1924)





Technically, Hung Gar kuen doesnt seem to use the following type of (1680 Fujian Eng Chun White Crane) frame , Qigong core, momentum, and power generation.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1123271&postcount=1



Those are the data could be found in the present.

With or without White Crane of Fujian Hung Gar is a good system of its own.

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC579DhVSTc&feature=player_embedded#
well, it is nice to see an example of someone who is breathing clear down to their heels!

[Minghequan]

well, it is nice to see an example of someone who is breathing clear down to their heels!

Yes. Truly a masterful demonstration of Fuzhou Fujian White Crane. Lee Kong (the Demonstrator) helped me name my school and is a wonderfully humble master, always eager to share of his knowledge.

[Hendrik]

the core of Eng Chun White Crane or the art of Fang Chi Niang 1680 such as in the following image

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1123271&postcount=1


is actually not "very" Southern TCMA as most think.

in fact the frame and handling of internal Qi as the above is very close to Xing Yi.


Thus, if one really train and attain that level of Kung fu in White Crane, it has a uniqueness in structure, power generation, and momentum which is different then most so called southern TCMA .

with this type of kung fu cultivation, it becomes not supprise that when the Founder of Yi Chuan Wang Xiang Zai challenged the White Crane player; the result of the fight is draw or parr.


unless one can see what the Eng Chun White Crane in this depth or interm of frame, power generation, internal Qi handling, and momentum. one doesnt really see the uniquness and the power of Eng Chun White Crane. all these are not superficial form or posture it is real power.

[Minghequan]

Taai gihk yahn wrote:

well, it is nice to see an example of someone who is breathing clear down to their heels!

Yes this breathing through the feet (Yongquan ~ Gushing Spring) is a great example of what we term "Ground Reaction Energy"

"Green Pines, Old Bamboo, The Wind is Blowing".

Our White Crane master use to say that when the wind blows, the bamboo and green pine is like our body, soft and yet pliable, yielding to great pressures, like the wind. But when the roots are stable and firm, rooted, our lower body should be like that. From the lower Dan Tian 丹田, downwards, it should be firm and rooted, but yet is extremely yielding and pliable from the lower Dan Tian 丹田 upwards.

What's interesting is this exact Fist Poem is located at the Bai He Xian Shi Middle Temple at Nan Tian Zhao Tian Jun on Gao Gai mountain about half an hour of a bus ride from Fuzhou city. The middle shrine of the main building is the one said to have been the training grounds of Da Chong Lin AKA Pan Yu Ba.

Keep in mind that there are 3 Dan Tian, namely, the upper Dan Tian (上丹田) between the eyebrows, the center Dan Tian (中丹田) at the solar plexus, or the lower Dan Tian (下丹田) below the navel.

[TenTigers]

Wong Kei-Ying (or Wong Tai) did indeed incorperate technique fromLeung Guan (from Lam Fook Sing) into the Hung Kuen which was taught to him by Luk Ah-Choi, which was passed to Wong Fei-Hung.
There is also the possibility that Fong ChinYang, from wing chun county is also Fong Wing Chun, whose crane techniques were combined with Hung Hei-Guen's Hung Kuen.
Since all of these "Histories" were passed dpwn orally, before ever being commited to paper, how do You decide which is plausible? Well, it gpes back to techniqe, right? And, although the techniques.may have gone through some modification, as ypu like to say, the dna is there. One is just as plausible as the next.
Of course, we can just go back to saying,"no it isn't -yes it is..." ad nausseum..