Random thoughts....

[m1k3]

I'm back after a long absence do to some stuff in my personal life. I've been going to Al-Anon the last several months and it has really changed the way I look at things.

So....I have a beginners background primarily in TWC with some Moy Yat. I did BJJ for about 4 years but had to quit because of my knees. I am now about two months into boxing at an MMA gym so even though I am primarily doing it for exercise a lot of the people who are training either have or plan to use it in the ring/cage.

At this point of my training I see a whole lot of similarities between the way I was trained in TWC and my current boxing training. There are parallels in the footwork and pivoting, closing the gap to take up space and moving to the blind side (working the angles in boxing). Of course no form work but there is time spent shadow boxing. Lots of drills and conditioning. In boxing we don't do air punches, someone is always holding the pads for you, or you for them. You don't start sparring until you have 60 classes under your belt. Actually there is a whole art to holding pads correctly but that can be another thread.

From my background in several different MAs I feel that you get the most improvement out of your training in the first 6 months to a year. At the end of that time frame you are going to be head and shoulders above someone who doesn't train or fight alot. Of course your mileage will vary as there are simply some tough b@stards out there. After that period of time you start to refine your gross skills and begin to pick up the subtleties of the art.

So, from a self defense perspective you have picked up most of the skills you need to be successful in that first year.

I think the biggest difference I have noticed between by TWC training and my MMA school training is so much the drills or techniques or even instructors. It's the students. IMO your average student at the MMA school is much more focused and dedicated. Its like the difference between playing a sport in a recreational league and playing on a varsity team. Even those of us who don't plan to compete get caught up in the 'spirit' of the training. That sounds kind of vague but its the best I can do now to describe it.


EDIT: The above section sounded condescending when I reread it and that's not the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a different mindset from someone who is training to compete that from someone who is training because they enjoy training in that art. Not that the people who compete don't enjoy it also. As I said it's hard to verbalize but I notice a different intensity in the way people train. For example if we went from one hard drill physically to another in the TWC class you would get complaining from people about how hard they were being worked. At the MMA school there wouldn't be any complaining as it was expected and you get people who stay after class to do bag work.



So, based on a suggestion from HumbleWingChun I decided to throw this out here for discussion.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

:)

[Grumblegeezer]

Good post. Especially the points about attitude during training. Something all of us should think about.

[Vajramusti]

Glad that you had the courage to seek help and the determination to turn things around.

joy chaudhuri

[WCgreg]

I found this too after training in MMA and boxing initially then some taekwondo and now wing chun that I was much more focused on application inside and outside the ring as opposed to form work and chi sau etc.
Also I used to train more often and more intensly and now in wing chun training I don't even train so I can protect myself or others it's purely for love of martial arts and in particular Kung Fu so very valid post IMO

[Phil Redmond]

I'm not sure which TWC school you trained in but I understand where you're coming from. In my school in Manhattan and in Sifu Mazza's school in Mt. Laurel, NJ where I also teach there are different types of students. Some people learn for exercise/fitness/defense techniques. Then there are those that train for fighting. It generally is the students who aren't interested in fighting that keep the doors of a commercial TMA open. Most people who sign up for a TMA school aren't really prepared for hard training. People who sign up for MMA are generally different in that regard. We do have boxers one of whom is a pro training at the NJ school. And we have a wrestling coach, Judo players, and BJJ guys who train with us. Since you're not too far away from the Mt. Laurel kwoon you should visit the conditioning classes from 6:30-7:30 on Tues-Thurs. If I'm correct you are a former Marine so you'll enjoy keeping up in those classes. I also teach a fighting application class there Wed. 7:30-8:30pm. I hope to see you at the gym on Larwin Rd. soon.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In general there is probably some truth to what Mike is saying. It's kind of interesting, the perception. I know that back when I was training with my teacher and when I was teaching a lot, people had a bit of trouble accepting that all we were doing was TCMA. The training is very difficult. Neither of us concerned ourselves with making a living from martial arts.

Are you guys MT fighters? Are you doing MMA? Did you incorporate boxing? Other than the grappling, I have to say, "No." It really just boils down to the training being rigorous and people thinking that it is something else. However, I am not doing much different than what has been done for several generations.

[m1k3]

I read a post in another forum several years ago about the 'ecology' of a dojo. He said you have the antelopes which make up the majority of the school. As Phil said for commercial schools this is where most of your money comes from. The next group is the lions, this is your fight team. These are the people who want to compete and like to fight. As a school owner trying to keep a good ecological balance you want to keep the antelopes and lions separated. Sometimes you will lose an antelope to the lions. The last group are the elephants. They usually aren't interested in being on the fight team and really aren't that interested in belts. They just like to train. They have no problem going at it with the lions. Sometimes an elephant will trample an antilope.

I'll leave it up to you to determine where you think you fit on this scale. I will be honest and admit I am an elephant.

Joy, thank you for your response. I now know what someone means when they say they hit bottom. BTW, I bounced when I hit.

Phil, I'd like to take you up on the fight application class offer. First I am going to focus on the boxing for a bit. I never realized how much thinking went in to it and how much time you spend on footwork. Semper Fi brother.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Phil, I'd like to take you up on the fight application class offer. First I am going to focus on the boxing for a bit. I never realized how much thinking went in to it and how much time you spend on footwork. Semper Fi brother.

IMO, it is the key that unlocks the whole thing. If you think about it, in terms of upright fighting, it is what gives the skilled fighter the biggest advantage over the unskilled for the most part. Without footwork, it's just Rockem' Sockem' Robot time. I spend a lot of time talking about it.

Edit:
I guess that there is the crowd that thinks that all you have to do in WC is to create one bridge and then the fight is pretty much a clinch after that. That of course is a complete and utter fantasy.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mike

Honestly, if you continue with your boxing and learn footwork and such,
add
WC entries (There are probably 6 or 8 things that I use consistently)
a good WC straight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E
elbows, knees, and clinching on the inside (instead of inside punching)
low-line kicks

you will be a half-decent WC fighter.

[GlennR]

I'm back after a long absence do to some stuff in my personal life. I've been going to Al-Anon the last several months and it has really changed the way I look at things.

Great to see youre benefiting from your training


So....I have a beginners background primarily in TWC with some Moy Yat. I did BJJ for about 4 years but had to quit because of my knees. I am now about two months into boxing at an MMA gym so even though I am primarily doing it for exercise a lot of the people who are training either have or plan to use it in the ring/cage.

At this point of my training I see a whole lot of similarities between the way I was trained in TWC and my current boxing training. There are parallels in the footwork and pivoting, closing the gap to take up space and moving to the blind side (working the angles in boxing). Of course no form work but there is time spent shadow boxing. Lots of drills and conditioning. In boxing we don't do air punches, someone is always holding the pads for you, or you for them. You don't start sparring until you have 60 classes under your belt. Actually there is a whole art to holding pads correctly but that can be another thread.

Cant agree with you enough on the pad holding thing.


From my background in several different MAs I feel that you get the most improvement out of your training in the first 6 months to a year. At the end of that time frame you are going to be head and shoulders above someone who doesn't train or fight alot. Of course your mileage will vary as there are simply some tough b@stards out there. After that period of time you start to refine your gross skills and begin to pick up the subtleties of the art.

So, from a self defense perspective you have picked up most of the skills you need to be successful in that first year.

If you spar a lot yes, id tend to think that whilst you may have picked up the techniques (in your case boxing) youd still need to have done some sparring to get used to applying them. Having said that, learning just to hit hard on its own is worth plenty in a real life situation.


I think the biggest difference I have noticed between by TWC training and my MMA school training is so much the drills or techniques or even instructors. It's the students. IMO your average student at the MMA school is much more focused and dedicated. Its like the difference between playing a sport in a recreational league and playing on a varsity team. Even those of us who don't plan to compete get caught up in the 'spirit' of the training. That sounds kind of vague but its the best I can do now to describe it.

Absolutely spot on.
Boxing, MT and MMA attracts fighters... they work out that there is no short cuts (its all about blood, sweat and tears) and they like the intensity of the training.
And, yes, the level of training is infectious and does get that "spirit" going ;)


EDIT: The above section sounded condescending when I reread it and that's not the point I'm trying to make. I think there is a different mindset from someone who is training to compete that from someone who is training because they enjoy training in that art. Not that the people who compete don't enjoy it also. As I said it's hard to verbalize but I notice a different intensity in the way people train. For example if we went from one hard drill physically to another in the TWC class you would get complaining from people about how hard they were being worked. At the MMA school there wouldn't be any complaining as it was expected and you get people who stay after class to do bag work.

Not condascending at all.... just your honest, realistic observation whic i can relate to 100%
Its all of the things you mentioned above that have side tracked me of the WC path (for now at least) and , in my case, gone down the MT path.
I finf the training addictive (probably too strong a word) and the sparring a real test of mind, body and spirit.... to me thats what MA is all about.
Currently i cant fnd that in WC



So, based on a suggestion from HumbleWingChun I decided to throw this out here for discussion.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Thanks for the topic and good luck with your training.
Oh, and id take Phils offer up for a training session.... he seems a top guy