Counter to front leg takedown?

[Eric Olson]

Pretty much every SanDa video I see has one opponent grabbing the other opponent's front leg and pushing them back and slamming them to the ground. This seems to be the predominant take down.

So what's the counter?

EO

[bawang]

i dont know. i still havent figured out how to defend against a right hook.

[Dragonzbane76]

is this the shot? Or a leg pic?

[Hardwork108]

i dont know. i still havent figured out how to defend against a right hook.

That is because you don't practice Wing Chun! :p

[YouKnowWho]

The easiest counter is to press your opponent's head downward and let him to kiss the ground - dog eat sh!t.

[Darthlawyer]

The counter is to kick him in the face when he tries to grab your leg.

[wiz cool c]

this is the shuai jiao way to do it, opponent grabs leg,push opponents head down, grab opponents rear leg lift leg and dump opponent to side.

[pazman]

Move feet back, drop your hips, use your body to brace against the shoot.

[Frost]

level change and get the underook before they get the leg....prevention is better than cure........ if they do get in on the leg and are silly enough to put the head on the outside, make the leg heavy and crossface them so hard you break their jaw rip their head off to make them let go

[Hardwork108]

Pull front leg back at 45 degree angle, using one arm to "check", while with the other palm strike the head, preferably the side. Forget doing this technique if you have never learned how to palm strike properly in a manner to knock out or at least daze a person.

Second option. Pull front leg back, push the uncoming head down and sink your elbow on the spine or back of the neck. Forget doing this technique if you have not acquired the body unity to make this technique effective and damaging.

[Frost]

Pull front leg back at 45 degree angle, using one arm to "check", while with the other palm strike the head, preferably the side. Forget doing this technique if you have never learned how to palm strike properly in a manner to knock out or at least daze a person.

Second option. Pull front leg back, push the uncoming head down and sink your elbow on the spine or back of the neck. Forget doing this technique if you have not acquired the body unity to make this technique effective and damaging.

Or forget doing the above unless you want to get maimed;)

listen to the guys on this board who actually grapple

[Wayfaring]

level change and get the underook before they get the leg....prevention is better than cure........ if they do get in on the leg and are silly enough to put the head on the outside, make the leg heavy and crossface them so hard you break their jaw rip their head off to make them let go

I like this answer so far. There are quite a few variables actually - like where does the shoot come from? Are they low shooting in on an ankle?

But heavy on the front foot and a low front hand allows you to crossface to the outside or whzzr to the inside with heavy hips - time it to grind them into the ground. That's a sprawl combined with the crossface or whzzr.

Catch wrestling has a grovit lock from there too that's not high percentage on good people but painful and nice to do to a noob shooter.

If someone is sticking their head out like the shu jaio picture I'd guillotine them.

[Frost]

Yep for submission grappling shooting a head outside single is silly, guillotine time or just take the back, even in a non sub match it screams to me crossface and rip the head off, much prefer head inside it is to me a much higher percentage move. Like the heavy hips bit, stuffing the head and sprawling with heavy hips is a good idea, got to watch for them taking the back but that easier with the head inside on a single leg, hence the ****zer should always be used (or a tleast an overhook)

As for the grovit ill reserve my judgement on that until next month when I have a seminar with billy robinson:)

[Hardwork108]

Or forget doing the above unless you want to get maimed;)

listen to the guys on this board who actually grapple

Listen to the guys on this (Kung fu) board who actually practice kung fu!

There are still a few of us left!

Authentic Traditional Kung fu training does have grappling and does take the ground scenario into account.

It is not too late Frost, you live in the UK and still have access to genuine TCMA tuition. Look for it as it is still not easy to find, but it IS there.

Actually right now, the only thing I miss about the UK is my kung fu school!!!

[Frost]

Listen to the guys on this (Kung fu) board who actually practice kung fu!

There are still a few of us left!

Authentic Traditional Kung fu training does have grappling and does take the ground scenario into account.

It is not too late Frost, you live in the UK and still have access to genuine TCMA tuition. Look for it as it is still not easy to find, but it IS there.

Actually right now, the only thing I miss about the UK is my kung fu school!!!

your right i do have access to a very good TCMA instructor when i can get back to training with him, and guess what he grapples too :)

as for your way to deal with grappling well lets leave it to those reading this thread to decide which method actually works and which will get you run over by a grappler

[Brule]

This is a kung fu board, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the drop the elbow on the back of the head technique. Pretty much in the reptoire of every TCMAtist.:p

[bawang]

i think it came from tai chi people. the move is actually called "chest protecting fist" but they teach it to white people as a downward elbow.

[pazman]

This is a kung fu board, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the drop the elbow on the back of the head technique. Pretty much in the reptoire of every TCMAtist.:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBsZAQR27zk

Here you are....I never tire of laughing my ass off watching this.:p

[MightyB]

This won't work in San Da San Shou, but it works nice in submission grappling and BJJ. I've used it for years because "Sumi Gaeshi" is one of my bread and butter throws in Judo. The third clip is the lateral throw which is a variation for if your trapped leg is outside his legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJy-Gw4cJto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ5oE0nMkOE

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1127868/wrestling_single_leg_counter/

[lkfmdc]

There are two variations, head inside and head outside.

Here are a few things to look at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odSzk9iC-zU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uNSVC8uBwM

[EarthDragon]

mighty B and david ross's youtube examples are by far the best application for the counter. good find guys

[lkfmdc]

When it comes to wrestling, I look to Gable and John Smith, can't go wrong there

[Ray Pina]

level change and get the underook before they get the leg....prevention is better than cure........ if they do get in on the leg and are silly enough to put the head on the outside, make the leg heavy and crossface them so hard you break their jaw rip their head off to make them let go

This is correct.

In the above picture the attacker should not be leaning over with his head on the outside. His legs should be under him like a dead lift or squat and his forehead should be pinned to either the other's chest or under his armpit.

[Lebaufist]

Loved this one. 3:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odSzk9iC-zU&feature=player_detailpage#t=171s)

and this position should be almost automatic for any cma guy. 4:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odSzk9iC-zU&feature=player_detailpage#t=240s)
Note the crossing horse entry. This one should be a no brainer in assimilating that move.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The reality of it is this:
If a guy is good, whether his head is inside or out doesn't matter, he comes in fast,hard and well, you are going down.
There are many counters for the sngl leg, whether the head is inside or outside.
Ideally you want to counter BEFORE the hold sinks in, that is best case scenario.
With the hold in, you don't want to have him "run you over" or get inside you, so keep moving, but this often leads to losing balance.
Pros and cons to every counter and counter to every counter exist.
What you need to do is work on a couple counter for each variation ( head in or out) and drill them and focus on NOT allowing him to cinch the hold and get you off balance.
Find what works best FOR YOU through constant drilling and practice.

[Lebaufist]

Everybody say "Amen" ! Thank you , St Paul.

[lkfmdc]

The reality of it is this:
If a guy is good, whether his head is inside or out doesn't matter, he comes in fast,hard and well, you are going down.
There are many counters for the sngl leg, whether the head is inside or outside.
Ideally you want to counter BEFORE the hold sinks in, that is best case scenario.
With the hold in, you don't want to have him "run you over" or get inside you, so keep moving, but this often leads to losing balance.
Pros and cons to every counter and counter to every counter exist.
What you need to do is work on a couple counter for each variation ( head in or out) and drill them and focus on NOT allowing him to cinch the hold and get you off balance.
Find what works best FOR YOU through constant drilling and practice.

1) I laugh when people try and claim that no one does head outside takdowns :D

2) if it were EASY to defend against you wouldn't see so many counters in modern wrestling

[Lebaufist]

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss boooooooooooooooooooooooo sssssssssssssssssssssss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuvejrTTcNM

[Frost]

1) I laugh when people try and claim that no one does head outside takdowns :D

2) if it were EASY to defend against you wouldn't see so many counters in modern wrestling

Don’t think anyone claimed no one does head out side shots or that it was easy to defend, I think what was said was that in submission wrestling its not the best version to do, even in wrestling most of the coaches I have worked with whilst showing both usually say head inside is better allows more control and is more difficult to defend

[lkfmdc]

Don’t think anyone claimed no one does head out side shots or that it was easy to defend, I think what was said was that in submission wrestling its not the best version to do, even in wrestling most of the coaches I have worked with whilst showing both usually say head inside is better allows more control and is more difficult to defend

oh, I HAVE seen people say there is no such thing as a head outside takedown even! But no point in latching onto that one point

And RE defense I just mean those lame videos with THE (ie single) answer to any takedown :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a handful of counters for Both since I have been put on my ass by BOTH, LOL !

Personally I find the key is reaction time and an instinctive use of footwork and body shifting, things you only get from constant drilling, regardless of the way the takedown is down or the counter.

[lkfmdc]

For every takedown you should have
1) counter that puts you in your perfect position
2) counter that puts you in neutral position
3) "hail mary" counter if all else fails

AND at least some ground game if none of these work

[MightyB]

If you practice live rolling enough - then you don't put much thought into it - you stuff the shoot with a sprawl or try something tricky if they don't shoot hard, or you go for a shoot or a takedown of your own. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If you hit the ground, just don't let 'em take your back or pass the guard, if they do, then you counter, and on and on. Really - there's no sense in worrying too much about it. Practice a lot and you then don't give a flying farquart anymore because you just deal with it. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes you tea bag humiliate the guy.

[goju]

The reality of it is this:
If a guy is good, whether his head is inside or out doesn't matter, he comes in fast,hard and well, you are going down..

Yes this. I remember when i was working with the grudge fight team i did my first rounds of stand up sparring with take downs thrown in with one of their amateur fighters and i was splat on my back before i had time to blink lol I only managed to stop one.:D And he was 155 and i was 210 at the time.

[Wayfaring]

If a guy is good, whether his head is inside or out doesn't matter, he comes in fast,hard and well, you are going down.

Actually I'm going to disagree with this one a little bit. The head position can matter, but it isn't really the key factor, it's the body position.

If you look at those shu jiao pictures, that is horrible form on the single - you don't want your body parallel to the ground shooting in, you want it perpendicular. A good penetration step will get your hips in to your opponent and be lower than his hips. From there the finishing can take a number of different turns depending on what your opponent does.

Parallel to the ground like that offers a ton of counters. Perpendicular limits the counters more because with the penetration step and follow if it's done well already lifts the guys hips off the ground.

As a matter of fact I've read some accounts of Dan Gable correcting the form of one of his athletic wrestlers in this fashion - showing them by hip pressure that the parallel position gets shut down easily.

Can't find a Gable instructional but this one illustrates what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26hhoqM1Gsc

[Ray Pina]

Sometimes, when I'm better than the other person, I can be sloppy... land strikes without set ups, shoot and take someone down from a distance and put my head anywhere. Look down at the floor.

Against someone who knows, is equally skilled, this is the mistake that will give them a positional advantage.

Not the end of the world, as MightyB pointed out.

I train to recognize the clinch position, get the under hook, change levels and be the guy taking the other down.... sometimes I'm fatigued. Had a couple rough rolls in a row and get sloppy at the end of the night and it's the other who gets me down. This is why we also train getting guard and reestablishing position.

Fights are dynamic. Mistakes or simple miscalculations happen.

With that said, you still want to train properly. Enforce proper mechanics.

Recently had a private training session with John Cholish from Renzo Gracie.... single leg is one of his favorite and he focused on that. Picked up some nice little details about choking up. Resetting the shoulder and a couple of nice transitions. I'm really enjoying going for this in the pocket as apposed to shooting from a distance. Establishing that one anchor first and then go to double leg.

[David Jamieson]

There's likely a lot you can do.

If the hooks are in, then guillotine and fall to guard.
If the hooks aren't in, get to the sprawl and try for the reversal once the shooter is pushed down.

and so on and so forth.

anyone ever try a double grab around the back, pushing the head down and then falling to guard then throwing one leg over and pushing his hips down?

I succeeded with that vs a tackle in one fight. It worked great, totally immobilized the guy and he tapped.

[Eric Olson]

It seems like the single leg is hard to defend against as I see it executed on high-level SanDa players quite frequently. You would think if the counter was easy to execute that it would neutralized more often.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems like the single leg is hard to defend against as I see it executed on high-level SanDa players quite frequently. You would think if the counter was easy to execute that it would neutralized more often.

EO

Any take down is an aggressive attack and as such, unless it is done horribly slow and telegraphed, requires the reactor to be a step behind and that is all that it takes when the guy doing the TD gets a firm hold.
The single leg is easier than the dbl leg and can be hiding much better and can be pulled of easier and quicker than a DBL leg.
Defending against it is as hard as anything else.
Defending against a jab is hard, that's why you get jabbed so much and the jab is used so much.

The sngl legged can come in a variety of fashions, the only limit is your imagination.
I recall on class that the whole class was doing sngl legs and defending against them and in just that one hour you saw so MANY possible ways of doing them.

[Ray Pina]

It's one of those things, once it's locked in the success rate is high.

The difficulty is pulling it off with guys you train with, because they get hip to you.

I like to work it in conjunction with a regular collar tie/head pull..... guys resists the head pull and pull their weight/intention back.... that's the time to drop and grab. Guys over defend the shoot with their hips too far back.... slap on the head drag and pull them to their knees/turtle. Guys dancing back and forth between both worlds get the hip throw.

This is why I don't understand the apparent lack of live drilling going on in TCMA. This is all basic stuff that is super fun to drill, easy to learn and fun to try and apply during free play.

[Lebaufist]

This is why I don't understand the apparent lack of live drilling going on in TCMA. This is all basic stuff that is super fun to drill, easy to learn and fun to try and apply during free play.If true for the majority, then for shame. That is, and should be, a staple of the practice.

[Frost]

There's likely a lot you can do.

If the hooks are in, then guillotine and fall to guard.
If the hooks aren't in, get to the sprawl and try for the reversal once the shooter is pushed down.

and so on and so forth.

anyone ever try a double grab around the back, pushing the head down and then falling to guard then throwing one leg over and pushing his hips down?

I succeeded with that vs a tackle in one fight. It worked great, totally immobilized the guy and he tapped.

how the hell do you double grab someone, push there head down AND pull guard.......how many limbs and joints do you have on your body?

also how do you insert the hooks on a standing single leg?:confused::eek:

[Frost]

It seems like the single leg is hard to defend against as I see it executed on high-level SanDa players quite frequently. You would think if the counter was easy to execute that it would neutralized more often.

EO

lack of good wrestling maybe, :)

joking but a lot of the counters require small gloves so you can use your hands: its hard to cross face, ****zeer, stuff the head etc with boxing gloves, not to mention its easier doing a single leg when you dont have to worry about being submitted or about advancing your position onc you take them down

[Eric Olson]

Great answers, thanks!

EO

[Lucas]

This is why I don't understand the apparent lack of live drilling going on in TCMA. This is all basic stuff that is super fun to drill, easy to learn and fun to try and apply during free play.

I think some teachers are intimidated. They are intimidated by adult students, many of which have past experience and might diminish the god like quality that the teacher has spent their career fostering and nurturing. However, many CMA schools (this is from an American standpoint) that are starting up by American born practitioners are not following this trend. I predict that you give it 5-10 years and this will become the standard in many cma schools. Its a progressive movement. out with the old, in with the new, so to speak. yes its nothing new, but in the commercial world of cma in america its on the rise and much needed.

this is why i love mma and respect so much, it forces the put up or shut up evaluation, even from non practitioners. people all around simply want to see real results now.

[MasterKiller]

It seems like the single leg is hard to defend against as I see it executed on high-level SanDa players quite frequently. You would think if the counter was easy to execute that it would neutralized more often.

EO

A single-leg is easier to defend when you are only wrestling than when it is being setup by punches and kicks, imo.

[David Jamieson]

how the hell do you double grab someone, push there head down AND pull guard.......how many limbs and joints do you have on your body?

also how do you insert the hooks on a standing single leg?:confused::eek:

I'm guessing you are a visual person....

when a tackle comes in, you hug the back and sit into guard, lean back, leg over.

with a single leg, put the guillotine on and let him take you down.

either way, you should wind up in guard.

The head gets pushed down because the hug traps under the pits and bends the head forward as if you weer gonna do a piledriver, but instead, just sit and throw a leg over, two if he lets go the one he took.

get it?

[Lucas]

http://2012rising.com/images/152.jpg

[Frost]

I'm guessing you are a visual person....

when a tackle comes in, you hug the back and sit into guard, lean back, leg over.

with a single leg, put the guillotine on and let him take you down.

either way, you should wind up in guard.

The head gets pushed down because the hug traps under the pits and bends the head forward as if you weer gonna do a piledriver, but instead, just sit and throw a leg over, two if he lets go the one he took.

get it?

what happens when he sticks his head to the outside and simply suplexs your stupid backside for doing something so moronic as reaching over his back?

[David Jamieson]

what happens when he sticks his head to the outside and simply suplexs your stupid backside for doing something so moronic as reaching over his back?

surely you aren't so bloody dimwitted that you think there aren't any variations in what happens?


if his head is outside, you can attempt the guillotine.
would you agree?

[Frost]

surely you aren't so bloody dimwitted that you think there aren't any variations in what happens?


if his head is outside, you can attempt the guillotine.
would you agree?

i think you are so ignorant of grappling that you think reaching around the back over someones arms is a good idea..........:rolleyes:

i also think you are, oh i wont bother you will just lock the thread

[bawang]

i think you are so ignorant of grappling that you think reaching around

i think the reach around is a good defence against takedown, is good when combine with qin na

[David Jamieson]

i think you are so ignorant of grappling that you think reaching around the back over someones arms is a good idea..........:rolleyes:

i also think you are, oh i wont bother you will just lock the thread

Oh for pete's sake.

keep your panties in a bunch why don't you. :rolleyes:

If you don't get what I'm saying, that's fine, you don't seem to understand what I'm alluding to despite that it worked for me.

so, if it looks or sounds stupid, but it works, then it's not stupid.

get it? yet?

[Hardwork108]

This is a kung fu board, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the drop the elbow on the back of the head technique.

I did mention it in my previous post.;)

It is a kung fu board, but but most people who post here do not practice kung fu, even if some of them think that they have kung fu "experience"....LOL!


Pretty much in the reptoire of every TCMAtist.:p
This is a valid technique if the TCMA-ist in question has practiced it correctly and even more importantly has built the body unity required to create relatively short range power through "exploding" into the opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

This is a kung fu board, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the drop the elbow on the back of the head technique. Pretty much in the reptoire of every TCMAtist.:p
Trying to drop your elbow at your opponent's head while he is coming toward you may not be that easy. You only have a small window and timing is important there.

It's better to

- move your leading leg back (create empty space),
- pull and press your opponent's head to the ground (borrow his force),
- lead him into the emptiness (I love those fancy words), and
- let him to kiss the ground (Chinese call this "dog eats sh!t").

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3119/changtournament1.jpg

After you have taken your opponent down right under your knee, you can

- drop your elbow,
- punch his head,
- drop your knee,
- knock him out with your d!ck,
- ...

Those finish moves are pretty much "common sense" and there is no need to talk about it. :D

[pazman]

I don't think anybody is against the elbow strike, it's just that in every video that I've seen where a TCMAist demonstrates this, they fail to do even the most basic things like dropping the hips, or "change levels" as Frost says, which is what must happen first so as not to get run over by the shooter.

Please refer to the absolutely terrible video of the Yang Mian shoot defense that I posted above.

[Dragonzbane76]

A single-leg is easier to defend when you are only wrestling than when it is being setup by punches and kicks, imo.

important statement. When adding in the differing zones you add level changes back and forth. It's harder to read someone when a punch is coming at your head.

The funny thing about the "elbow drop" to the back of the head or back area is that most times the traditionalist forgets that a shot has momentum and a drive. I guess it could be possible but the % is low IMO. I've caught people with upper cuts coming in and knees but most times the shot they were performing was telegraphed and slow or the did not have the proper tech. to pull off a shot against someone prepared for it.

[bawang]

The funny thing about the "elbow drop" to the back of the head or back area is that most times the traditionalist forgets

the elbow drop has no traditional basis. its a compeltely modern mcdojo fabrication.

[Dragonzbane76]

the elbow drop has no traditional basis. its a compeltely modern mcdojo fabrication.

I do not doubt it. By the time someone realized they are in trouble they are usually on there back and getting pummeled with GnP. The time for striking or what ever has passed by then. The sprawl and hand push are probably the best answer to this question IMo, but timing is everything.

[Hardwork108]

the elbow drop has no traditional basis. its a compeltely modern mcdojo fabrication.

Incorrect assumption. Unless that is you have practiced all the hundreds of TCMA styles, including the sub-styles.

I would however say that the elbow defense that does NOT function is a McDojo fabrication, because it ignores the timing and body unity faculties necessary to make this work.

Incidentally, many "unworkable" TCMA techniques WILL work when one has gained the "internal" body unity, which is something that is not taught even in the better TCMA schools.

IMHO, for those who are interested, this is a fundamental area of research in order to get deeper into mysteries of the TCMAs.....

[taai gihk yahn]

This is a valid technique if the TCMA-ist in question has practiced it correctly and even more importantly has built the body unity required to create relatively short range power through "exploding" into the opponent.

I'd say even more importantly is practicing it against someone (e.g. - a skilled grappler) who actually knows how to do a correct shot at full speed and see just how effective that actually is (frankly, a lot less than one might think, bec. the whole context of short range explosive power doesn't work all that well when dealing w the sort of kinematics associated w things like a skilled shot; in a way, it's similar to why the long-arm lama / CLF "antibridging" stuff did so well against the so. shorthand, because it doesn't alow for the sort of contact / range required to pull that off); point is, the sort of ging that u see w the so. short range works very well under a specific context, but less so against things outside that context; which makes sense: no one thing works well against everything else - so u can hav the body unity, that's great, but it won't do one much good if one does not practice applying that unity in the right context;

otherwise, we are presupposing that the people who spend most time defending skilled shots have not developed a defense against them as effective as people who spend little to no time defending against skilled shots...and that's just illogical...

[bawang]

IMHO, for those who are interested, this is a fundamental area of research in order to get deeper into mysteries of the TCMAs.....

kung fu is not about which technique is superior. you have fundamentally failed as both martial artist and a human being.

instead of being helped and improved by kung fu in your life, people like you have twisted and defiled kung fu into a vile, disgusting reflection of yourself.

[Lebaufist]

The End..............

[pazman]

Incorrect assumption. Unless that is you have practiced all the hundreds of TCMA styles, including the sub-styles.

I can't speak for southern styles but most northern styles are literally the same thing, over and over, done with different flavors. The only thing that I've seen that resembles a downward elbow strike would actually be classified as a standing armbar (waki gatame), and has nothing to do with a shoot defense.

You can do all the "research" you want but all of this information and training is not secret or hidden. It's plain to see.

[taai gihk yahn]

Incidentally, many "unworkable" TCMA techniques WILL work when one has gained the "internal" body unity, which is something that is not taught even in the better TCMA schools.

you know, one can say this about pretty much any MA: a lot of wrestling techniques won't "work" unless one utilizes proper mechanics, timing, etc.; same in boxing, fencing, pretty much any combat system; however, there is also a lot of TCMA stuff that won't work no matter what sort of internal connection u have, because the context within which they have been propagated is bogus; similarly, a lot of karate, TKD and other "traditional" systems suffer from this disconnect - but this is what happens when u practice in a way that does not encourage active resistance during training - techniques change based on speculation rather than application; unfortunately, the justification is just what you present - that unless one has the proper internal training, one can't expect these things to work - problem is, if you never get them to work, the onus is always on you the practitioner, rather than the technique itself - this is the essential conceit and ultimately the downfall of TCMA - that anything that is in a truly traditional system is there because it has all been fully thought-out and highly developed to the nth degree by the style's hoary ancestors; over time, this gets propagated, and so you have generations of students practicing things under highly limited contexts, and they never question outside that context bec it's not a culturally accepted thing to question one's sifu beyond a certain level; but now that TCMA has spread to "the west", a lot of these assumptions are being questioned; and a lot of them are found lacking by people who approach TCMA with skeptical mind (meaning that they don't just accept things as such); the problem is that when someone does discount something, they are accused of not having studied it deeply enough - if only they would study it deeply enough, they would get it; honestly, this is a solipsistic concept: that the only reason something doesn't work is bec someone hasn't studied it deeply enough, not because that thing is intrinsically a fabrication; and frankly, TCMA is LOADED with fabrication: for example, many people argue at length over the :correct" way of doing a taiji empty fist, and come up with all sorts of elaborate rationales for why it's done that way, and how to make it "work"; well, guess what: my sifu's taiji form doesn't do an empty fist; and that's bec our lineage comes from Yang Lu Chan outside of the Imperial Palace where he and his family taught; the reason they did empty fist inside the palace was bec the mandarin nobles he taught had long finer nails and couldn't / wouldn't make a tight fist; so YLC accommodated them both in terms of form and rationale; so here is just one example of TCMA being corrupted internally; of course, u repeat it often enough with students who r only too happy to believe u and suddenly it becomes a valid technique that one shouldn't disparrage bec if they studied it deeply enough, they;d be able to use it;
this whole if-only-u-studied-it-deeply-enough schtick preys on the insecurity of the newbie up through the highly experienced practitioner; however, it doesn't work on people who have trained in arts where you pressure test from the get go;

yes, it is that simple...

[David Jamieson]

yes, it is that simple...

http://cdn.singersroom.com/news/pics/2010/04/lady-gaga-040510.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

http://cdn.singersroom.com/news/pics/2010/04/lady-gaga-040510.jpg

sorry, me no savvy, :( please to 'splain...

[David Jamieson]

It's the obvious as being explained to the oblivious.

Here I was thinking a picture is worth a thousand words. :o:p

[YouKnowWho]

A single-leg is easier to defend when you are only wrestling than when it is being setup by punches and kicks, imo.
A single leg is not the best move in the striking environment. The wrestling single leg was created in the wrestling only sport environment. When the striking is involved, the single leg will need some modification. You don't need to use both hands to get your opponent's single leg. If you just use one hand, your other hand can do a lot of things.

[Hardwork108]

kung fu is not about which technique is superior. you have fundamentally failed as both martial artist and a human being.

You missed the point I was trying to make which was NOT about technique, even if without technique you have nothing!

I was talking about the FACULTIES needed to make the technique in question work, in answer to someone who did not believe that the given technique would work.


instead of being helped and improved by kung fu in your life, people like you have twisted and defiled kung fu into a vile, disgusting reflection of yourself.

You not understanding my original point shows you to be a kung fu pretender like most other posters here. So, stop rubbing your, and everyone elses testicles and find decent kung fu tuition. If you don't find it in your core style, then join a genuine kwoon that teaches another style, so as to enlighten yourself as regards authentic TCMAs, which should prevent you from making an asz out of yourself in public TCMA forums such as this one.

Best of luck.....

[Hardwork108]

I'd say even more importantly is practicing it against someone (e.g. - a skilled grappler) who actually knows how to do a correct shot at full speed and see just how effective that actually is

Practicing any technique in live situations is given in any serious MA study. However, as far as the technique in question is concerned, without the internal body unity you will have nothing. So, first one must acquire it, to then TEST it. Otherwise, live testing a half complete technique is meaningless.


(frankly, a lot less than one might think, bec. the whole context of short range explosive power doesn't work all that well when dealing w the sort of kinematics associated w things like a skilled shot;
First of all, the elbow technique exploding on the back of the head/neck of an opponent can never be tested realistically for obvious reasons.

Secondly, there are more than one type of short explosive power and body unity. I am mentioning these as regards the Chow Gar way (Shock Power and Internal body unity), as opposed to the Wing Chun way, and believe me, they are worlds apart, when looked at from certain "angles".



in a way, it's similar to why the long-arm lama / CLF "antibridging" stuff did so well against the so. shorthand, because it doesn't alow for the sort of contact / range required to pull that off); point is, the sort of ging that u see w the so. short range works very well under a specific context, but less so against things outside that context; which makes sense: no one thing works well against everything else
I believe that you are unfamiliar with the Chow Gar methodology and concepts in question. That is understandable, because despite popular belief there are many methodologies, including internal ones, even when it comes to power generation.

All I can say, again I am talking Chow Gar here, is that a "long" technique will be intercepted by a solid block backed by a UNITED "human tank like" body. Once the bridge is accomplished the counterattack is instant and it "explodes" into the opponent.

Unfortunately, one cannot manage to do this in few months or even years of training, except for going through the motions and perhaps thinking that this would not work in the real world. This will only work only when the body unity is developed internally.

The development of interanl body unity works in conjunction with the development of the "shield" (IB) and Chock Power.



- so u can hav the body unity, that's great, but it won't do one much good if one does not practice applying that unity in the right context;
I agree.

However, I don't think the people here comprehend the extend and potency of the body unity in question as this is very style/lineage specific and goes infinitely further than "putting your body behind your punch" that most people here are familiar with.



otherwise, we are presupposing that the people who spend most time defending skilled shots have not developed a defense against them as effective as people who spend little to no time defending against skilled shots...and that's just illogical...

I did not make such a claim. My point is that the elbow strike behind the head or on the spine is not likely to work if you have not developed the specific Internal body unity as taught in styles such as Chow Gar and as I understand it, some lineages of Pak Mei and Dragon.

I am making a simple point. Those unfamiliar with this methodolgy will not understand/comprehend it, but it is valid practice and I have seen people who have developed this "body" and lets just say that it provided me with a lot of food for thought as regards as to how the hell did the masters of the old ever stumbled upon this.

Anyway, this stuff is not taught in general. Lot of Chow Gar schools will use weight training and other methodologies that are more "scientific" and "logical", and they will never get the same effects as the traditional methodologies in question here.

That is why I always recommend people to research this stuff, as no matter what I say on an internet forum, it is not going to convince anyone who has no idea about such practices and the faculties they create, even if it is through often "boring" and "monotonous" exercises.

[Hardwork108]

you know, one can say this about pretty much any MA: a lot of wrestling techniques won't "work" unless one utilizes proper mechanics, timing, etc.; same in boxing, fencing, pretty much any combat system;

Agreed, and I am not denying that as it is common sense and logic.



however, there is also a lot of TCMA stuff that won't work no matter what sort of internal connection u have, because the context within which they have been propagated is bogus; similarly, a lot of karate, TKD and other "traditional" systems suffer from this disconnect - but this is what happens when u practice in a way that does not encourage active resistance during training - techniques change based on speculation rather than application;

Again, as far as I am concerned live testing is given in any MA training and I have never negated the need for it. However, I will say that certain faculties have to be acquired before one goes on to test their combat efficiency.

Otherwise one will be wasting his time in learning the given style and is in danger of ending up saying, "oh this and that does not work in TCMA, because I had my butt handed to me when I tried it in live sparring (without having built the necessary faculties first), so I am leaving Kung fu and will be joining my local kickboxing/MMA gym"!


unfortunately, the justification is just what you present - that unless one has the proper internal training, one can't expect these things to work -

There is a logic behind that view. Just as in order for kickboxing techniques to work properly, one has to do the weights and conditioning, as well as hours and hours of bag work. Basically, you are building a body that is prepared to apply given techniques in a live situation.

The methodology as regards Chow Gar (and Wing Chun), do exactly the same. You build your roots, stances, and Internal body connections (I am talking Chow Gar as regards the elbow technique in question). Otherwise your technique is in danger of bouncing off the on coming shoot, instead of "exploding" into the spine or head/neck area of your opponent.



problem is, if you never get them to work, the onus is always on you the practitioner, rather than the technique itself -

Exactly, and that is why the practitioner should build the distinct style specific faculties before putting such techniques into practice.


this is the essential conceit and ultimately the downfall of TCMA - that anything that is in a truly traditional system is there because it has all been fully thought-out and highly developed to the nth degree by the style's hoary ancestors; over time, this gets propagated, and so you have generations of students practicing things under highly limited contexts, and they never question outside that context bec it's not a culturally accepted thing to question one's sifu beyond a certain level;

Well, you are talking "Mcdojo" kung fu here. I have been lucky enough to have trained with combat oriented authentic kung fu sifus who had mastered their systems. They pride themselve in teaching kung fu as a combat art, even if they will be the first to admit that what they teach goes beyond combat.



but now that TCMA has spread to "the west", a lot of these assumptions are being questioned;
Very true, but unfortunately a lot of the questioning is done by people who have not got a clue. They may be great kickboxers, MMA-ists and even just great fighters, but they will never have any clue as regards the TCMAs, if they have not had access to genuine training and have had the discipline to stick to it for long enough to understand the more "unusual" concepts and methodologies!



and a lot of them are found lacking by people who approach TCMA with skeptical mind (meaning that they don't just accept things as such); the problem is that when someone does discount something, they are accused of not having studied it deeply enough - if only they would study it deeply enough, they would get it; honestly, this is a solipsistic concept: that the only reason something doesn't work is bec someone hasn't studied it deeply enough,

Again, the fact remains that there are techniques in Chow Gar that will only work if the little known body unity faculties are gained by the practitioner, otherwise they become techniques that are "not practical for modern day combat", or "none functional", and other clueless descriptions that are thrown around forums such as this one by people with incomplete knowledge of TCMAs.

This in turn means that most people who babble about how the TCMAs should be "improved" have not practiced them deeply enough and I am sure that you will agree that there aren't that many people even teaching TCMAs in a very profound and multilevel manner. I mean most of the "sifus" around nowadays do not even have the minimum knowledge even if they were inclined to teach kung fu properly.

It is worth mentioning that everything that I have been taught has had practical value to it as regards combat. This could be due to the less "flowery" nature of the styles I practice - Chow Gar and Wing Chun - together with of course the quality of instruction I was fortunate enough to have access to. That is not to say that I have not been shown applications that are more prefereable to others as regards combat effectiveness, and I am not implying that all kung fu techniques are fantastic for combat, special taking into account the red herrings put into forms by secretive sifus and masters of the past.



not because that thing is intrinsically a fabrication; and frankly, TCMA is LOADED with fabrication: for example, many people argue at length over the :correct" way of doing a taiji empty fist, and come up with all sorts of elaborate rationales for why it's done that way, and how to make it "work"; well, guess what: my sifu's taiji form doesn't do an empty fist; and that's bec our lineage comes from Yang Lu Chan outside of the Imperial Palace where he and his family taught; the reason they did empty fist inside the palace was bec the mandarin nobles he taught had long finer nails and couldn't / wouldn't make a tight fist; so YLC accommodated them both in terms of form and rationale; so here is just one example of TCMA being corrupted internally; of course, u repeat it often enough with students who r only too happy to believe u and suddenly it becomes a valid technique that one shouldn't disparrage bec if they studied it deeply enough, they;d be able to use it;

If by empty fist you mean the "hollow fist" then let me tell you a "secret". In the Mainland Wing Chun lineage that I practice the more advanced students to slightly hollow their fists when striking. There is a reason for that. I am not saying that the Mandarin Nobles did not have long nails, and that their sifu did not adapt the training for them, but I hazzard a guess that he did so to in a practical manner, as he would have if he had substituded fist strikes for palm strikes which are also and very WRONGLY deemed unpractical by some of the kickboxing fraternity insistently posting in this forum.



this whole if-only-u-studied-it-deeply-enough schtick preys on the insecurity of the newbie up through the highly experienced practitioner; however, it doesn't work on people who have trained in arts where you pressure test from the get go;
Again, I am not against pressure testing techniques. What I am against is testing half truths and incomplete knowledge, that is, techniques without the correct delivery mechanism that comes from acquiring the sometimes style specific body unity, rooting, energy, etc. concepts of a given style, and then drawing conclusions on the effectiveness on that given style based on clueless assumptions that one comes across so often nowadays.

The fact is that when it comes to Chow Gar, there is no one here who has an idea of what I am talking about (and I have been "fishing" for years here to see if anyone was familiar with the obscure methodology in question - to no avail) and instead of researching the clues, they rationalize their lack of knowledge by "identifying" none existant flaws in the related ideas I am putting forward.

I think that it is best for people to forget their egos and use this forum to learn about TCMA aspects that they no nothing about. Furthermore, if someone like me can hint at valid TCMA methodologies that no one knows about, then imagine how much fascinating stuff is out there for ALL OF US to learn. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

The fact is that when it comes to Chow Gar, there is no one here who has an idea of what I am talking about (and I have been "fishing" for years here to see if anyone was familiar with the obscure methodology in question - to no avail) and instead of researching the clues, they rationalize their lack of knowledge by "identifying" none existant flaws in the related ideas I am putting forward.

If its so bad and polluted with people u don't. like leave.

[Frost]

Oh for pete's sake.

keep your panties in a bunch why don't you. :rolleyes:

If you don't get what I'm saying, that's fine, you don't seem to understand what I'm alluding to despite that it worked for me.

so, if it looks or sounds stupid, but it works, then it's not stupid.

get it? yet?

If it sounds stupid, breaks a fundamental rule of wrestling AND can only work against a bum rush tackle its stupid and useless and the fact no one else on the thread said they had tried it speaks volumes…to use your language get it yet?

PS
Fundamental rule of wrestling, don’t reach around the back over their arms on a double leg ….doesnt matter if you are standing or sprawled on them, it allows a duck out and back take when you are sprawled on them, and allows the mother of all throws if the duck out get their hips under and double leg you or suplex you ….hell if you reach around their back on a single or double you have nothing between them and your legs or body, which violates so many principles of wrestling its not even funny

[Frost]

important statement. When adding in the differing zones you add level changes back and forth. It's harder to read someone when a punch is coming at your head.

The funny thing about the "elbow drop" to the back of the head or back area is that most times the traditionalist forgets that a shot has momentum and a drive. I guess it could be possible but the % is low IMO. I've caught people with upper cuts coming in and knees but most times the shot they were performing was telegraphed and slow or the did not have the proper tech. to pull off a shot against someone prepared for it.

This, there is a big difference between hitting your opponent moving in and onto your upper cut or knee, and trying to hit downwards with an elbow against an opponent coming in hard and fast….not to mention the usual…. in a shot or single my hips are under my head so you cant drop the elbow on anything…..of course those that only practised wing chun for 2 years and chow gar for even less forget this….well to be far to use his own language they don’t have a frame of reference to be able to intelligently discuss the situation

[Frost]

A single leg is not the best move in the striking environment. The wrestling single leg was created in the wrestling only sport environment. When the striking is involved, the single leg will need some modification. You don't need to use both hands to get your opponent's single leg. If you just use one hand, your other hand can do a lot of things.

Actually the single leg is in many ways better than the double in a striking environment, if I shoot a double I can get sprawled on and punched kicked, and I either have to turtle up or pull guard (ie im on the bottom) the single is much safer: if I miss it so what I’m still on my feet and can move around, its also easier to set up out of the clinch or to move into from strikes, over hand right stepping into a single is a good high percentage move, as is dropping from the under hook to taking the single from the clinch.

And if you just use one hand for the single they will kick out of it, if you stand there you can eat punches (and even jumping knees) but most people when taking a single are ragging you around and off balancing you and its hard to hit hard when you are hoping all over the place

[Lokhopkuen]

Pretty much every SanDa video I see has one opponent grabbing the other opponent's front leg and pushing them back and slamming them to the ground. This seems to be the predominant take down.

So what's the counter?

EO

There a great technique called the crane stance, take your front
T leg right out of harms way....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing:
To counter any grappling take down one must, quite simply, be exposed to those particular moves and themore one is exposed to them, they better they get at countering them.
Specifcity rules and if one chooses to counter via grappling ( grappling vs grappling) then they appropriate counters will be drilled and trained and ingrained.
IF one chooses to counter via striking ( grappling VS striking) then the same thing happens and the same goes for grappling VS grappling AND striking together.
That is the common sense and simplicity of MA.
Fact of the matter is that anyone can be taught how to counter ANY technique in a very short period of time, even without prior MA skill.
The time frame is the issue of course but even with no prior MA skill, you are looking at a question of Days to learn ( I am being nice, I have seen it done in hours) and a question of days of constant and consistent training to ingrain.
Fact is that, using MMA as an example, in one year ( I am being generous) a practitioner that puts in the time will be proficient enough to strike and grapple and counter striking and grappling.
If we are talking striking only and using boxing or MT as examples, you have the same situation.
My point?
Quite simply is this:
ANY system that requires YEARS for the practioner to be able to defend and survive in a fight is automatically INFERIOR ( martial wise) to another system that requires CONSIDERABLE LESS time.

And this is directly related to the thread in question in this manner:

Any system that can teach a practioner to counter the front leg takedown in a question of hours or at the most days, is FAR SUPERIOUR to one that requires some "special knowledge" that takes LONGER to cultivate than "simple technique".

And perhaps THAT is the problem of some TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There a great technique called the crane stance, take your front
T leg right out of harms way....

Since the take down involves forward momentum on the part of the attacker, the defender being on one leg is NOT a good idea.

[Dragonzbane76]

U do have more mobility with the single than the double imo, singles are not as center line as the double and if trouble occurs when doing it u can slide off or come up easier for the clinch.

[Dragonzbane76]

Well robin that would constitute stepping outside the comfort zone and many get trepidation when that occurs.

[Frost]

Here is the thing:
To counter any grappling take down one must, quite simply, be exposed to those particular moves and themore one is exposed to them, they better they get at countering them.
Specifcity rules and if one chooses to counter via grappling ( grappling vs grappling) then they appropriate counters will be drilled and trained and ingrained.
IF one chooses to counter via striking ( grappling VS striking) then the same thing happens and the same goes for grappling VS grappling AND striking together.
That is the common sense and simplicity of MA.
Fact of the matter is that anyone can be taught how to counter ANY technique in a very short period of time, even without prior MA skill.
The time frame is the issue of course but even with no prior MA skill, you are looking at a question of Days to learn ( I am being nice, I have seen it done in hours) and a question of days of constant and consistent training to ingrain.
Fact is that, using MMA as an example, in one year ( I am being generous) a practitioner that puts in the time will be proficient enough to strike and grapple and counter striking and grappling.
If we are talking striking only and using boxing or MT as examples, you have the same situation.
My point?
Quite simply is this:
ANY system that requires YEARS for the practioner to be able to defend and survive in a fight is automatically INFERIOR ( martial wise) to another system that requires CONSIDERABLE LESS time.

And this is directly related to the thread in question in this manner:

Any system that can teach a practioner to counter the front leg takedown in a question of hours or at the most days, is FAR SUPERIOUR to one that requires some "special knowledge" that takes LONGER to cultivate than "simple technique".

And perhaps THAT is the problem of some TCMA.

you only say this because you havent been exposed to those real skills........

[sanjuro_ronin]

you only say this because you havent been exposed to those real skills........

Actually, I have and I have seen them work.
I have seen certain TCMA "specific" techniques to counter grappling and I have seen them work well and fail miserably.
It's just that when they work they don't work any better than the basics that you'd learn in any gym that specializes in grappling and you would learn them quicker there.

[Frost]

Actually, I have and I have seen them work.
I have seen certain TCMA "specific" techniques to counter grappling and I have seen them work well and fail miserably.
It's just that when they work they don't work any better than the basics that you'd learn in any gym that specializes in grappling and you would learn them quicker there.

no you haven't. you haven't seen the real specific skills a certain someone is talking about so your point of view doesn't matter.........its a circular logic with no end point

[Dragonzbane76]

Maybe that's because they specialize in grappling and know how to teach it. Maybe its because that's all they focus on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

no you haven't. you haven't seen the real specific skills a certain someone is talking about so your point of view doesn't matter.........its a circular logic with no end point

You recall our dear friend Erle Montaigue?
RIP old friend.
He was very much a proponent of certain "internals" to deal with grappling and I saw him use them a few times, very effectively.
Of course Erle also had quite a bit of wrestling experience and had a good cross reference of how grappling worked.
Most TCMA that advocate "jing" to deal with grappling miss out on a "small" part that makes them fail when trying to apply it VS a trained grappler and that is they do not have the experience of dealing WITH a trained grappler.
One can certainlu use "jing" to do many things that help in countering the takedown:
Things like "bumping" and "pressing" and "twisting" "jings", but they are a MEANS to an end, not the END in of itself ( they are typiclaly used to create space and opportunity to deliver strikes and whatnot).

Here is the thing though, I have seen and felt these very "jings" in wrestling and MMA and BJJ, they just don't call it "jing" and trust me, it is the same thing.

One thing that over 30 years in MA has taught me:
Regardless of the style, the human body works a certain way, period.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe that's because they specialize in grappling and know how to teach it. Maybe its because that's all they focus on.

You don't go to a clinic on sawing if you wanna learn how to hammer.

[Frost]

You recall our dear friend Erle Montaigue?
RIP old friend.
He was very much a proponent of certain "internals" to deal with grappling and I saw him use them a few times, very effectively.
Of course Erle also had quite a bit of wrestling experience and had a good cross reference of how grappling worked.
Most TCMA that advocate "jing" to deal with grappling miss out on a "small" part that makes them fail when trying to apply it VS a trained grappler and that is they do not have the experience of dealing WITH a trained grappler.
One can certainlu use "jing" to do many things that help in countering the takedown:
Things like "bumping" and "pressing" and "twisting" "jings", but they are a MEANS to an end, not the END in of itself ( they are typiclaly used to create space and opportunity to deliver strikes and whatnot).

Here is the thing though, I have seen and felt these very "jings" in wrestling and MMA and BJJ, they just don't call it "jing" and trust me, it is the same thing.

One thing that over 30 years in MA has taught me:
Regardless of the style, the human body works a certain way, period.

Yep trained his tai chi for a few years, he was a very good martial artist, and like you say he knew wrestling, cant help but think back to some of his students and think they didn’t have the same points of reference and would have gotten eaten alive by grapplers…of course some would argue he doesn’t have the real deal when it comes to internal training………

As for the experience bit I cringe looking back at how we trained be deal with those attacks, distance, body angles setups were all wrong

Yep its all the same I remember the first time I hip checked a double leg before sprawling, very TCMA like, just as the shoulder bump in the clinch used to create space reminds me of some of the hakka stuff I have seen and tried

[Hardwork108]

If its so bad and polluted with people u don't. like leave.

You misunderstood my statement. I guess some things don't change. :rolleyes:

Look, this is a KUNG FU FORUM and I was referring to a specific TCMA methodology that at this point in time I am not expecting anyone, or at least most people here to have any knowledge of, but hey, it is still kung fu.

Those who should leave are the ones who don't train kung fu and are trapped into an eternal MMA vs TCMA d¡ck waving contest. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep trained his tai chi for a few years, he was a very good martial artist, and like you say he knew wrestling, cant help but think back to some of his students and think they didn’t have the same points of reference and would have gotten eaten alive by grapplers…of course some would argue he doesn’t have the real deal when it comes to internal training………

As for the experience bit I cringe looking back at how we trained be deal with those attacks, distance, body angles setups were all wrong

Yep its all the same I remember the first time I hip checked a double leg before sprawling, very TCMA like, just as the shoulder bump in the clinch used to create space reminds me of some of the hakka stuff I have seen and tried

I miss coresponding with him....
The angles HAD to be "all wrong" because the premise and technqiues were totally different.
The thing is that if there is a simpler and effective way of doing something, why not do it that way?
I mean, grapplers have been grappling for centuries, they know the best and more effective and effecient means of dealing with grappling, they are the experts in such.
Now there is something to be said about going outside the box of course, BUT I think that works best when we have a "solid box" to go outside of, know what I mean?

[Dragonzbane76]

Those who should leave are the ones who don't train kung fu and are trapped into an eternal MMA vs TCMA d¡ck waving contest.
And u wave it as much as anyone else.

[Frost]

I miss coresponding with him....
The angles HAD to be "all wrong" because the premise and technqiues were totally different.
The thing is that if there is a simpler and effective way of doing something, why not do it that way?
I mean, grapplers have been grappling for centuries, they know the best and more effective and effecient means of dealing with grappling, they are the experts in such.
Now there is something to be said about going outside the box of course, BUT I think that works best when we have a "solid box" to go outside of, know what I mean?

He was one of the good ones, never met him but he answered some of my mails nicely and one of my teachers learned pushing hands and tai chi from him, preferred it to the usual yang stuff he had been doing for years. I loved his pushing hands very martial

Stop making sense or this thread could get locked lol

Speaking of solid boxes (oh lord that’s a bad saying and a cue for some nice photos from you please) I always find it funny that I have yet to find a grappling only coach who thinks he can teach a student how to strike and deal with striking…they usually suggest you go to a specialist because they tend to know there limitations

[Ray Pina]

if his head is outside, you can attempt the guillotine.
would you agree?

There's a way to finish someone who insists on holding the guillotine on the way down.... it's one of my favorites because the fu(ker thinks he has you:

pin your head to the mat, let him squeeze all he wants.

Walk your legs over so you're in a side control, with your head still pinned to the mat on the opposite side.


Step over, putting all your weight on your shoulder onto his neck. He either lets go or taps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He was one of the good ones, never met him but he answered some of my mails nicely and one of my teachers learned pushing hands and tai chi from him, preferred it to the usual yang stuff he had been doing for years. I loved his pushing hands very martial

Stop making sense or this thread could get locked lol

Speaking of solid boxes (oh lord that’s a bad saying and a cue for some nice photos from you please) I always find it funny that I have yet to find a grappling only coach who thinks he can teach a student how to strike and deal with striking…they usually suggest you go to a specialist because they tend to know there limitations

It's funny you mention that because any decent striking coach will tell you the same thing, go to a place that specializes in grappling to learn how to deal with grappling.

The fact is that if you want to get the best instruction possible for something you go where the best of that is.
No one is saying that a striker must become a grappler, but training with them will give you a perspective and understanding that goes far beyond simple technique.

As for solid boxes....
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/SryoonuSsWI/AAAAAAAAw_w/QBqLvdEXZeg/s400/girl_in_the_box_07.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here are some more boxes:
http://4.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/6/d/collegehumor.bb6de5b60ae24b82282612cd85097607.jpg

[MasterKiller]

There's a way to finish someone who insists on holding the guillotine on the way down.... it's one of my favorites because the fu(ker thinks he has you:

pin your head to the mat, let him squeeze all he wants.

Walk your legs over so you're in a side control, with your head still pinned to the mat on the opposite side.


Step over, putting all your weight on your shoulder onto his neck. He either lets go or taps.

This is called a Von Flue choke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwpb7RBu90

[David Jamieson]

There's a way to finish someone who insists on holding the guillotine on the way down.... it's one of my favorites because the fu(ker thinks he has you:

pin your head to the mat, let him squeeze all he wants.

Walk your legs over so you're in a side control, with your head still pinned to the mat on the opposite side.


Step over, putting all your weight on your shoulder onto his neck. He either lets go or taps.

so, you see. You know it gets done. You likely also know that if you aren't explosive enough and he follows you around, it won't be so easy to slip that guillotine either.

Now, say the guy putting the guillotine on you start pressing his wrist and pulling it into your larynx? It's pretty effective if you find yourself unable to not slip the takedown.

But again, any number of variables can happen. Anything at all could happen.

[David Jamieson]

You misunderstood my statement. I guess some things don't change. :rolleyes:

Look, this is a KUNG FU FORUM and I was referring to a specific TCMA methodology that at this point in time I am not expecting anyone, or at least most people here to have any knowledge of, but hey, it is still kung fu.

Those who should leave are the ones who don't train kung fu and are trapped into an eternal MMA vs TCMA d¡ck waving contest. ;)

It doesn't matter.
The forum doesn't need saving, it needs cleaning up.

Pretending to be some white knight on a quest to clear your mma knuckle heads and clueless kickboxer from a kung fu site is a hopeless cause. It is a misguided effort at the least.

Besides, we mods and our overlord are doing that now.

Frankly, when you start with your antics and continuation of this argument you claim to hate, you are in fact making it worse.

If you want a thread to die, don't respond to it.
If you keep inflaming things or exacerbating a subject, expect repercussions.

This forum is open to all. mma threads will get moved to the mma forum and trolls will be shut down. shouting matches will be ridiculed, then closed, then deleted.

post counts will fall! :p


get in the game and play. try not to whine too much.
:)

[David Jamieson]

If it sounds stupid, breaks a fundamental rule of wrestling AND can only work against a bum rush tackle its stupid and useless and the fact no one else on the thread said they had tried it speaks volumes…to use your language get it yet?

PS
Fundamental rule of wrestling, don’t reach around the back over their arms on a double leg ….doesnt matter if you are standing or sprawled on them, it allows a duck out and back take when you are sprawled on them, and allows the mother of all throws if the duck out get their hips under and double leg you or suplex you ….hell if you reach around their back on a single or double you have nothing between them and your legs or body, which violates so many principles of wrestling its not even funny

Ok Frost, your personal beef with me is goofy. I'll accept that and move on and regard you as such.

I'm not saying your choices are wrong, you do have a poor attitude towards "discussion" and instead have a tendency to take some superiority air when in fact there is NO ground to do so.

Plus you keep adding conditions to what I am addressing, which is poor form on your part. You do not have any more answers than any other guy who's done wrestling.

I was on my HS team and middle school as well. I've actually had a lot of experience with it and if you feel better thinking I"m a pyjama guy who does wu shu because that makes you feel better about yourself that's fine. You go ahead and think that young man.

Good day. :)

[MightyB]

There's a way to finish someone who insists on holding the guillotine on the way down.... it's one of my favorites because the fu(ker thinks he has you:

pin your head to the mat, let him squeeze all he wants.

Walk your legs over so you're in a side control, with your head still pinned to the mat on the opposite side.


Step over, putting all your weight on your shoulder onto his neck. He either lets go or taps.

Do this - but if he's got you closed guard - defend the choke by grabbing his choking arm, pin your head to the mat - then stand up wide base - then go extremely narrow base, "take off your pants" to slip his guard - then walk around to side control.

[MasterKiller]

Do this - but if he's got you closed guard - defend the choke by grabbing his choking arm, pin your head to the mat - then stand up wide base - then go extremely narrow base, "take off your pants" to slip his guard - then walk around to side control.

In the closed guard, I prefer to standup and put my head on the mat (tripod), then wrap my opposite side (from head being choked) arm around his head. Then, you sink your shoulder into his neck and he either loosens the guilottine or passes out.

[MightyB]

In the closed guard, I prefer to standup and put my head on the mat (tripod), then wrap my opposite side (from head being choked) arm around his head. Then, you sink your shoulder into his neck and he either loosens the guilottine or passes out.

This is what I'm saying too... just go narrow base after you tripod and with little effort their closed guard slips off like taking off a pair of pants - at least for me because I have narrow hips - might not work for someone who's bigger.

[MasterKiller]

This is what I'm saying too... just go narrow base after you tripod and with little effort their closed guard slips off like taking off a pair of pants - at least for me because I have narrow hips - might not work for someone who's bigger.

What I'm suggesting is you stay inside their guard and apply the choke without passing.

[MightyB]

What I'm suggesting is you stay inside their guard and apply the choke without passing.

I see that now - this guy does both - makes guy pass out and passes guard like how I'm saying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnLTpFH4awc&feature=related

[Frost]

Ok Frost, your personal beef with me is goofy. I'll accept that and move on and regard you as such.

I'm not saying your choices are wrong, you do have a poor attitude towards "discussion" and instead have a tendency to take some superiority air when in fact there is NO ground to do so.

Plus you keep adding conditions to what I am addressing, which is poor form on your part. You do not have any more answers than any other guy who's done wrestling.

I was on my HS team and middle school as well. I've actually had a lot of experience with it and if you feel better thinking I"m a pyjama guy who does wu shu because that makes you feel better about yourself that's fine. You go ahead and think that young man.

Good day. :)

You wrestled and you think reaching over and around the guys back is a good idea?

You’re the one who started getting all shirty when I simply asked how on earth you actually managed to reach around someone, squash their head and pull guard, and for that matter how do you put the hooks in from a double/single?
You are the one saying thingas like

things like
get it now, and “ surely you aren't so bloody dimwitted that you think there aren't any variations in what happens?”
How did I add conditions this is what you originally said


“If the hooks are in, then guillotine and fall to guard.
If the hooks aren't in, get to the sprawl and try for the reversal once the shooter is pushed down.

and so on and so forth.

anyone ever try a double grab around the back, pushing the head down and then falling to guard then throwing one leg over and pushing his hips down?

I succeeded with that vs a tackle in one fight. It worked great, totally immobilized the guy and he tapped.”
Based on this I asked why would you reach around someone’ s back, and pointed out what could happen standing (like you are suggesting) and on the ground if you do this after the sprawl that’s about the only part I added ad it was to illustrate why reaching round the back is so fundamentally unsound in wrestling

And again I ask how do you insert the hooks from a double leg?


oh and knock it off with the high handed talk, some of us remember what you have been like on this forum for the past few years

[MightyB]

What I'm suggesting is you stay inside their guard and apply the choke without passing.

I'm trying this tonight to see how I do with it.

[Frost]

I'm trying this tonight to see how I do with it.

applying the choke without passing is a good idea, however risky if they which to a different version of the guillotine which doesn't require so much control of the hips, such as the marcello Gracia guillotine, personally I tripod apply the choke and try to pass to half guard or side control to finish

[MasterKiller]

I'm trying this tonight to see how I do with it.

I use it religiously. It's the first defense I show new students because it's so successful.

[David Jamieson]

You wrestled and you think reaching over and around the guys back is a good idea? I believe I mentioned that i did ths once and it worked. You can't seem to get off the subject, Ergo, you are fixating.


*the rest of this in context means nothing*

Stop trolling, you KNOW exactly where this started and who's attitude was shirty.
So keep it up with you personal grinds. See where it gets you. See where you whinging gets you as well.

so get off it and get off it now. we're done. NOT a word more and remember, this ain't no democracy. :mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I use it religiously. It's the first defense I show new students because it's so successful.

There was a time that Fabiano, the BJJ guy I trained under, tries to "emphasize" what we called "submission from every position".
It was facinating to see that you can pretty much get a sub from close to every position you can get into.

[Lebaufist]

This is called a Von Flue choke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwpb7RBu90Nice techniques.

I thought this point @ :25 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwpb7RBu90&feature=player_detailpage#t=25s) was a bit underplayed. It wasn't complete enough to actually effect a takedown.

I would like to have seen a sweep or balance break. The guy just layed down.

[MasterKiller]

Nice techniques.

I thought this point @ :25 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwpb7RBu90&feature=player_detailpage#t=25s) was a bit underplayed. It wasn't complete enough to actually effect a takedown.

I would like to have seen a sweep or balance break. The guy just layed down.

I just let them attempt to pull me into guard, and I block their hips with my hands and pass to the side as they pull me down.

[Lebaufist]

What I mean is that people aren't as paraplegic as this guy's Uke. They'll try to maintain their footing. Meanwhile, there should be a fair amount of choking. So thats two things you have to counter before you get down into the shoulder bar.

Even a quick inside reaping foot would have satisfied the position.

[Ray Pina]

This is called a Von Flue choke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkwpb7RBu90

That's it. But I actually step over, so I'm inverted. My chest is striving towards the ceiling, using that torque to drill the shoulder in.

I LOVE THIS MOVE!!!!!!

[Ray Pina]

But again, any number of variables can happen. Anything at all could happen.

Absolutely. In the end, it comes down to who is more skilled, conditioning, and who recognizes the position and changes first.

You can know more techniques than me, but if I'm more sensitive, more intuitive and athletic, I'll be you to securing the positions.

Or, you can know more technique and beat me to positions but I have better cardio, can survive until you tire out, then I use what I know to finish.

So many variables. I love it. Human chess with consequences....... that's why I hate $hit talking. Absolutely no place. You play. And that's it. The results speak for themselves. Then you go back to the lab.

[Ray Pina]

It was facinating to see that you can pretty much get a sub from close to every position you can get into.

That's what I love about BJJ.... you have guys to work with. I have a guy who is real good at butterfly guard and is always pulling guard and sweeping.... and he's 220lbs.

I now have developed a method for getting kamuras/Americanas (my highest percent finish) while passing half guard. Because of him.

So now I'm putting pressure to pass but also developing attacks. Also love stepping over and going for the knee bar right from half guard.

This aspect of being able to feel out various people with different styles/preferences and sizes is crucial, and why I think BJJ is so succesful.

[Ray Pina]

What I mean is that people aren't as paraplegic as this guy's Uke. They'll try to maintain their footing. Meanwhile, there should be a fair amount of choking. So thats two things you have to counter before you get down into the shoulder bar.

Even a quick inside reaping foot would have satisfied the position.

You have to understand it's an instructional video.... I've pulled this move off in competition more than once. It's easy to do against guys who haven't learned to abandone a lost position. It takes some guys two or three times before they smarten up.

Guys who don't know try the "try harder" technique when the choke isn't working. And on some levels there's a reason for that too.... sometimes you have to act like its not chocking when it is to buy some time. Force them to readjust or let go.

[YouKnowWho]

Actually the single leg is in many ways better than the double in a striking environment,
I'm not comparing single leg with double legs. I'm comparing it with other take downs. There are so many ways to get your opponent's single leg. By using 2 arms to reach one leg is just too risky. If you push your opponent's upper body, your opponent's leading leg will come off the ground. It's much easier and safter that way.

I don't like to apply sport (striking not allowed) take down in combat (stirking allowed) without modification. Whether your opponent's arms and legs can hit you or not at that moment should be considered seriously in combat.

[Hardwork108]

And u wave it as much as anyone else.

Well, there would not be any need for anyone to wave their d¡cks if the MMA people kept their discussions in the MMA threads.... ;-)

Besides, this is a KUNG FU FORUM and only kung fu guys can wave it here...;)

[Lokhopkuen]

Since the take down involves forward momentum on the part of the attacker, the defender being on one leg is NOT a good idea.

Well then you put it back down into a different type of stance?:D

[Hardwork108]

Well then you put it back down into a different type of stance?:D
Sometimes the best solutions are the simple ones! :D

[SteveLau]

There is a similar typical takedown move in MMA in which the objective is mount on top of the opponent. Well, I have thought of counter-move like grab the opponent's neck with both of my arms, and twist it. Or launch a knee kick with the other free leg into the opponent's kidney which moving half a step backward, and lower my centre of gravity in order to keep my balance. However, both counter-moves are probably forbidden by the rules in Sanda and MMA. First of all, using a move by taking advantage of the rules such that there is few effective counter-moves is not right IMHO.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

Many single leg and counters in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB6WISba5M

[Frost]

There is a similar typical takedown move in MMA in which the objective is mount on top of the opponent. Well, I have thought of counter-move like grab the opponent's neck with both of my arms, and twist it. Or launch a knee kick with the other free leg into the opponent's kidney which moving half a step backward, and lower my centre of gravity in order to keep my balance. However, both counter-moves are probably forbidden by the rules in Sanda and MMA. First of all, using a move by taking advantage of the rules such that there is few effective counter-moves is not right IMHO.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

good luck with that

[mjw]

Sprawl & cross face or wizzer

[JamesC]

Many single leg and counters in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB6WISba5M

The throw at 1:00 is amazing. Those guys are so strong it is ridiculous.

[Dragonzbane76]

There is a similar typical takedown move in MMA in which the objective is mount on top of the opponent. Well, I have thought of counter-move like grab the opponent's neck with both of my arms, and twist it. Or launch a knee kick with the other free leg into the opponent's kidney which moving half a step backward, and lower my centre of gravity in order to keep my balance. However, both counter-moves are probably forbidden by the rules in Sanda and MMA. First of all, using a move by taking advantage of the rules such that there is few effective counter-moves is not right IMHO.


seriously do you know anything about mma? because your answer says you don't.

[SteveLau]

Let us stick to the take down move mentioned by the author of this thread in the first post. It is a variation of the two legs grab take down. The video clip mentioned by YouKnowWho is good. But the rules and engagements that occur often in MMA are quite different from those in wrestling. For example, one does not often grab the opponent's hands and arms to engage in MMA.

In discussing the counter-move of the take down, one cannot help to discuss the take down move first. Its mechanism is first trap the opponent's legs, and then push him to the floor in order to subdue him. As for the counter-move, sprawl, as mentioned by mjw, I have seen it on TV documentary show, and in person two years ago when I was searching for sparring partner. The guy demonstrated the two legs grab take down, and the sort of standard counter-move - sprawl. Basically, it is a tug of war on strength. Each side tries to avoid being taken down or get screwed by the other. Perhaps, there is a next move soon in plan after it. And IMHO, we better have one. At best, sprawl is a so and so counter-move. A quick check yesterday shows that the MMA rules do allow elbow strike (my memory serves me well), but with exception. Elbow strike downwards is considered a foul. Will anybody here please tell me why? It sure looks legitimate to me.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Dragonzbane76]

12 to 6 elbow strikes are illegal in mma reasons of the ease to which it opens cuts and dangers that the point of the elbow contain.

[Frost]

Let us stick to the take down move mentioned by the author of this thread in the first post. It is a variation of the two legs grab take down. The video clip mentioned by YouKnowWho is good. But the rules and engagements that occur often in MMA are quite different from those in wrestling. For example, one does not often grab the opponent's hands and arms to engage in MMA.

In discussing the counter-move of the take down, one cannot help to discuss the take down move first. Its mechanism is first trap the opponent's legs, and then push him to the floor in order to subdue him. As for the counter-move, sprawl, as mentioned by mjw, I have seen it on TV documentary show, and in person two years ago when I was searching for sparring partner. The guy demonstrated the two legs grab take down, and the sort of standard counter-move - sprawl. Basically, it is a tug of war on strength. Each side tries to avoid being taken down or get screwed by the other. Perhaps, there is a next move soon in plan after it. And IMHO, we better have one. At best, sprawl is a so and so counter-move. A quick check yesterday shows that the MMA rules do allow elbow strike (my memory serves me well), but with exception. Elbow strike downwards is considered a foul. Will anybody here please tell me why? It sure looks legitimate to me.

Regards,

KC
Hong Kong


the sprawl is the single best counter to a leg attack if they are already in on your legs, it has always been the best counter even when downwards strikes with the elbow were allowed in MMA...which they were for decades.....because it removes the hips and legs from your opponent, which is what they want: they need control of your center and which striking before establishing a base does not do, any counter that does not do this is inferior becuase simple mechanice dictate you will be on the floor soon if you dont establish your base

the sprawl is also not the end result its the beginning of your defence and offense

[SimonM]

the sprawl is the single best counter to a leg attack if they are already in on your legs, it has always been the best counter even when downwards strikes with the elbow were allowed in MMA...which they were for decades.....because it removes the hips and legs from your opponent, which is what they want: they need control of your center and which striking before establishing a base does not do, any counter that does not do this is inferior becuase simple mechanice dictate you will be on the floor soon if you dont establish your base

the sprawl is also not the end result its the beginning of your defence and offense

I won an early city-level wrestling championship using almost no techniques but a good sprawl and some floor legwork. My opponent kept shooting, I kept sprawling, he'd go down underneath me.

Couldn't close the deal on the pin, so they kept standing us back up, but, still, won handily, got a gold medal and everything.

[jdhowland]

I won an early city-level wrestling championship using almost no techniques but a good sprawl and some floor legwork. My opponent kept shooting, I kept sprawling, he'd go down underneath me.

Couldn't close the deal on the pin, so they kept standing us back up, but, still, won handily, got a gold medal and everything.

Cool. Score one for awareness, footwork and positioning, the most essential of techniques to be trained.

[SteveLau]

the sprawl is the single best counter to a leg attack if they are already in on your legs, it has always been the best counter even when downwards strikes with the elbow were allowed in MMA...which they were for decades.....because it removes the hips and legs from your opponent, which is what they want: they need control of your center and which striking before establishing a base does not do, any counter that does not do this is inferior becuase simple mechanice dictate you will be on the floor soon if you dont establish your base

the sprawl is also not the end result its the beginning of your defence and offense

I need to read your post more than twice to get its meaning, ha ha. The sprawl is the single best counter to a leg attack?! The grabbing of the opponent so as to roll together to the floor is also a good one IMHO (shown in the video clip referred by YouKnowWho). The goal is not to let the opponent have an advantage over us at least. Once on the floor, elbows him when the first opportunity arises. But even the opponent is already on our legs, it is quite possible to knee kick him as I mentioned before. Or to jump up a bit, and land a downward elbow on him, as long as we have not started to lose our base. An important point here is that we are at a critical moment. Any counter-move must be very effective. That means if we use a strike as the counter-move, it must be sufficient to fend off the take down. Also, the head twist I mentioned before is effective too. But my concern is that if the opponent rushes me down in a flash, his neck might be broken partly with his own force. That is why I wonder if this counter-move is legal in MMA. Anyway, being got down to the floor does not necessary spell dome to us.



Will anybody else tell me why elbow down is forbidden in MMA?




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Frost]

Ok ill type it very slowly so you can understand…..the sprawl is the single best defence to a leg attack where the opponent is in on your legs, that’s why its found in every wrestling style that actually competes, and used by every single MMA fighter looking to stay on their feet, is it the only defence? no if the shots telegraphed, high or half hearted you can use the level change abd forklift truck defence, or a level change and single underhook and circle out, but if they are on your legs its what you need to do

It is not possible to knee kick him unless it’s a single leg takedown, and only then when you have superior head position, a wh_zzer and are pushing his head away making the takedown hard…ie you have defended the takedown and secured your center before attacking…….neck cracks are not illegal in MMA nor are cross faces which also crank twist the neck when done properly….no broken necks in MMA or wrestling from this move as far as I know

It does spell doom for you if all you have is twisting his neck to fall back on, and he’s on top feeding you your teeth

The downward elbow was banned because it causes cuts, and because some commissioners erroneously believed it was too dangerous, the same commissioners who felt that gloves would make things safer for competitors ….and then we saw the number of KO go through the roof….go figure… it was legal for about 80 years in brazil and Russia in the NHB matches there, you can also see it tried in the Graice in action films and early UFC’s…and it didn’t work then, heck it didn’t slow the takedown down much less stop it, all it did was annoy the grappler so when they get you down they really go to town

[omarthefish]

12 to 6 elbow strikes are illegal in mma reasons of the ease to which it opens cuts and dangers that the point of the elbow contain.

Main danger on a downward elbow and, I believe, the main reason they are banned, is the risk of severe, permanent spinal injuries. You can cripple a person for life with a well placed elbow to the spine.

It's not that it's likely to happen.. It's that it can happen and MMA is not supposed to be "Bloodsport"

[omarthefish]

The downward elbow was banned because it causes cuts, and because some commissioners erroneously believed it was too dangerous, the same commissioners who felt that gloves would make things safer for competitors ….and then we saw the number of KO go through the roof….go figure… it was legal for about 80 years in brazil and Russia in the NHB matches there, you can also see it tried in the Graice in action films and early UFC’s…and it didn’t work then, heck it didn’t slow the takedown down much less stop it, all it did was annoy the grappler so when they get you down they really go to town

posted simultaneously with me.

In those 80 years, any stats on actual injuries?

[Frost]

The historical accounts are the books about the graices and the early vale tudo events, newspaper accounts of the fights, the Gracie in action videos, etc all of which I suppose can be bias and not that accurate but you would have thought any serious death from those events would have been talked about and spread word of mouth from teacher to student…..never heard anyone mention it write about it or reference it…..

the early UFC’s for years allowed these strikes, I can remember seeing Jason deluca I think trying them on Royler in the Gracie in action clips, and also remember seeing them in the second UFC I think, cant remember one instance of deaths or serious injury reported in any venue can you?

The question would be has anyone ever heard of any deaths from these strikes in any NHB fight, east or west….either first hand or by word of mouth…… I cant remember anyone writing about them ?

[Hardwork108]

The historical accounts are the books about the graices and the early vale tudo events, newspaper accounts of the fights, the Gracie in action videos, etc all of which I suppose can be bias and not that accurate but you would have thought any serious death from those events would have been talked about and spread word of mouth from teacher to student…..never heard anyone mention it write about it or reference it…..

the early UFC’s for years allowed these strikes, I can remember seeing Jason deluca I think trying them on Royler in the Gracie in action clips, and also remember seeing them in the second UFC I think, cant remember one instance of deaths or serious injury reported in any venue can you?

The question would be has anyone ever heard of any deaths from these strikes in any NHB fight, east or west….either first hand or by word of mouth…… I cant remember anyone writing about them ?

Not in the sports competitions but I distinclty remember reading about a man dying when he was punched in the throat in a street or bar fight (can't remember) in the US. Also, many, many years ago in the UK a man died after being attacked chopped in the neck or throat (I can't remember:D) by a Karate practitioner. I am sure other such cases have happened before.

Killing people with your bare hands is not as difficult as you may believe, but thankfully the people who enter full contact NHB competitions do not have such intentions.

[omarthefish]

The historical accounts are the books about the graices and the early vale tudo events, newspaper accounts of the fights, the Gracie in action videos, etc all of which I suppose can be bias and not that accurate but you would have thought any serious death from those events would have been talked about and spread word of mouth from teacher to student…..never heard anyone mention it write about it or reference it…..

the early UFC’s for years allowed these strikes, I can remember seeing Jason deluca I think trying them on Royler in the Gracie in action clips, and also remember seeing them in the second UFC I think, cant remember one instance of deaths or serious injury reported in any venue can you?

The question would be has anyone ever heard of any deaths from these strikes in any NHB fight, east or west….either first hand or by word of mouth…… I cant remember anyone writing about them ?

Don't move the goalposts on me. Who said anything about DEATH!?! :confused:
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfgep8fdZ91qczyjso1_500.jpg

I said serious spinal injury. And there have been a number of those even in modern MMA with all the rules. The main difference though is that you can't really fault anyone for fall that went sideways. People get spinal injuries in all sorts of contact sports. The problem with a downward elbow is that, in many cases, spinal injury is the specific goal.

[Frost]

Ok no moving the goal posts, which specific incidents of spinal injury can you remember from a downward elbow in relation to MMA?

[omarthefish]

I dunno. They are illegal after all.

I did some searching and found a few MASSIVE injuries but not from elbows. There was one kid who actually did die during training it turns out from a guillitine gone wrong. (took a spill and landed on his head), found another broken neck from a shot that missed and ended in a face plant.

The only tourney I could find that even allows them is the Super Luta.

The issue here, to me anyways, is not so much about elbows as targets. To me, it's a no brainer that the base of the skill, the back of the neck and the spine should not be allowed as targets. The 12-6 elbow mainly targets the base of the skull of the back of the neck.

Theres always this one:
http://i32.tinypic.com/246quc7.gif

The nasty thing about those kinds of strikes is that even if the damage isn't crippling it can often be permanent and long lasting. I took a couple shots to the neck back in April and my arm still hasn't regained complete mobility. (Can't properly extend my middle finger THE IRONY! and my ring finger goes numb after a bit of typing right now.

[Frost]

They were legal and used in the early UFC’s, and no injuries were reported, just like they can be seen on the Gracie in action films, and no one was damaged then, so they wee banned because people thought they MIGHT be dangerous but there’s no real proof of that, ie when they were allowed no one can point to a single account of injury, as I say it’s the commission making another call based on assumptions, trying to make the sport more mainstream, which is fine, just like soccer kicks aren’t allowed and you cant knee an opponent to the head if he has three points of contact but it shouldn’t be seen by people as the great takedown stopper simply because its not allowed in the present UFCs, because when it was allowed it was shown not to be effective

[wenshu]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6Irtz1uTysZ8W3_qILBF6JrNIHD_ci C6GYVkccAIlJY372_Yx

[omarthefish]

They were legal and used in the early UFC’s, and no injuries were reported, just like they can be seen on the Gracie in action films, and no one was damaged then, so they wee banned because people thought they MIGHT be dangerous but there’s no real proof of that, ie when they were allowed no one can point to a single account of injury, as I say it’s the commission making another call based on assumptions, trying to make the sport more mainstream, which is fine, just like soccer kicks aren’t allowed and you cant knee an opponent to the head if he has three points of contact ...
So the evidence that they are "safe" is just as anecdotal as the evidence that they are not. Early UFC's is almost as small and non-scientific a "study" as "Gracie in action films".


...but it shouldn’t be seen by people as the great takedown stopper simply because its not allowed in the present UFCs, because when it was allowed it was shown not to be effective
Oh I can agree with that. It's like biting or eyegouging. Not likely to stop a commited, trained attacker but could leave you blind in one eye or infected with something nasty.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Main danger on a downward elbow and, I believe, the main reason they are banned, is the risk of severe, permanent spinal injuries. You can cripple a person for life with a well placed elbow to the spine.

It's not that it's likely to happen.. It's that it can happen and MMA is not supposed to be "Bloodsport"

As dangerous as elbows CAN be to the back of the neck and skull, the issue of banning wasn't because of injuries but the PERCEPTION of danger.

[Lucas]

art of war allows stomps and soccer kicks. Changes things a bit when a guy goes down and doesn't bring his opponent with him.

Why not put stomps, soccer kicks and downward strikes with hand and elbow to the spine/head back? Surely people are over their misguided perception. Early ufc isn't anywhere near the talent pool we gave today imo. With the amount of fights happening in today world, I'm sure someone like Anderson Silva could f someone neck up dropping a hard elbow a few times. When they were allowed how many world class fighters did we see actually employ those strikes regularly? I'm willing to bet your house against mine, that if we saw elbows to the back of the neck in every fight, you would see some serious injuries at some point. But at the same time, you would have to see them very often and you would likely only see a few serious injuries from those attcks

great take down def? Lol not really. But I wouldn't want anyone dropping elbows on my spine. I'd prob let go

Its like taking out round kicks because sompeople break their legs with them

[Frost]

art of war allows stomps and soccer kicks. Changes things a bit when a guy goes down and doesn't bring his opponent with him.

Why not put stomps, soccer kicks and downward strikes with hand and elbow to the spine/head back? Surely people are over their misguided perception. Early ufc isn't anywhere near the talent pool we gave today imo. With the amount of fights happening in today world, I'm sure someone like Anderson Silva could f someone neck up dropping a hard elbow a few times. When they were allowed how many world class fighters did we see actually employ those strikes regularly? I'm willing to bet your house against mine, that if we saw elbows to the back of the neck in every fight, you would see some serious injuries at some point. But at the same time, you would have to see them very often and you would likely only see a few serious injuries from those attcks

great take down def? Lol not really. But I wouldn't want anyone dropping elbows on my spine. I'd prob let go

Its like taking out round kicks because sompeople break their legs with them

yep mma has got better, so have the takedowns in the sport, early MMA fight with elbows being dropped on Royces back....didnt seem to stop him much

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

thats what the takedowns looked like in a lot of the early fights where elbows were allowed...ie terrible bum out head not over the hips making the back a target, and yet people didnt get injured from those strikes back then, now you have the like of GSP hitting classic wrestling takedowns, id say the odds of someone hitting the elbow on the back will have gone down not up

[SteveLau]

Up till now, the sprawl is an alright counter-move against leg grab take down to me. But it will be less effective if the opponents are on our legs already. I just got another counter-move out of my head yesterday - kneel down. It can be a one leg kneel or both legs kneel. We should cramp the opponent's head and shoulder down at the same time. The methodology is called sink. I.e. to lower our centre of gravity, and bring him downward with me. It also has the purpose of preventing him from kicking and hand strike us. Cramping our hands, arms and upper trunk on him will also prevent him from getting away. The methodology is called stay. I find it to be a good counter-move against the take down. With our lower legs on the floor, being pulled up from under is quite impossible because the floor is blocking the way. I might got my upper trunk being pushed back a bit by the opponent. But that might not always happen if I have bent down and forward while cramping him down. The counter-move is very effective, and easy to carry out quickly even when the opponent is on our legs. It also let us to carry out the next move - attack. The opponent's back, head and shoulder are well exposed to us. And our hands and elbows are free to strike these targets. At this moment, elbow downward on him might stop him if I execute it well. That includes what target I choose.

P.S. A check of MMA tournament rules a few days back say that elbow strike is allowed only with pad on. Yes, I witnessed an injury occurrence in a local full-contact tournament in 1997. The two fighters (junior level) were rushing at each other in the first round of the game. One guy got a upper cross elbow strike to his cheek. I could hear a loud bang even when they were 20 feet away. The paramedics have checked the injury (a cut with some bleeding) and allowed the fight to continue. So the injured guy wanted to continue the fight too. But after his sifu had took a look at the wound, and shook his head, his student was eventually announced by the judge to have lose the fight without continue to the second round.


KC
Hong Kong

[Frost]

Up till now, the sprawl is an alright counter-move against leg grab take down to me. But it will be less effective if the opponents are on our legs already. I just got another counter-move out of my head yesterday - kneel down. It can be a one leg kneel or both legs kneel. We should cramp the opponent's head and shoulder down at the same time. The methodology is called sink. I.e. to lower our centre of gravity, and bring him downward with me. It also has the purpose of preventing him from kicking and hand strike us. Cramping our hands, arms and upper trunk on him will also prevent him from getting away. The methodology is called stay. I find it to be a good counter-move against the take down. With our lower legs on the floor, being pulled up from under is quite impossible because the floor is blocking the way. I might got my upper trunk being pushed back a bit by the opponent. But that might not always happen if I have bent down and forward while cramping him down. The counter-move is very effective, and easy to carry out quickly even when the opponent is on our legs. It also let us to carry out the next move - attack. The opponent's back, head and shoulder are well exposed to us. And our hands and elbows are free to strike these targets. At this moment, elbow downward on him might stop him if I execute it well. That includes what target I choose.



P.S. A check of MMA tournament rules a few days back say that elbow strike is allowed only with pad on. Yes, I witnessed an injury occurrence in a local full-contact tournament in 1997. The two fighters (junior level) were rushing at each other in the first round of the game. One guy got a upper cross elbow strike to his cheek. I could hear a loud bang even when they were 20 feet away. The paramedics have checked the injury (a cut with some bleeding) and allowed the fight to continue. So the injured guy wanted to continue the fight too. But after his sifu had took a look at the wound, and shook his head, his student was eventually announced by the judge to have lose the fight without continue to the second round.


KC
Hong Kong

Seriously have you ever actually been double legged by anyone other than a clueless training partner? the whole idea is to pull the legs in as you drive through their centre, not stand there waiting for your opponent to sit down, its almost impossible to sit down when someone’s pulling your legs in all that will happen is they will blow right through you or collapse you sideways since my head is on the outside and my arm around your far leg so cant post anywhere and then beat you senseless for doing something so stupid

The whole point behind the double leg is to get access to your body and hips, and the sprawl is designed to move your hips away from your opponent and stretch him out to make his position weaker….neither of which your sit down defense does….seriously why are you trying to reinvent the wheel…why not just go and train with some real wrestlers and see what happens when you sit down on them

And there’s no way you will cramp someone sitting down on them because a good double (which you would know if you trained with grapplers, has the hips under the head and you moving through your opponent, there no time to sit-down, no space to sit down and no reason to since it gives him what he wants, yu on the ground and him with access to your hips and you with no post to put anywhere

Elbow strikes are allowed with pads in semi pro, without pads in most pro organisations, its only the downwards elbow with the point that’s not allowed, seriously….just….go train with a wrestling team

[SimonM]

Up till now, the sprawl is an alright counter-move against leg grab take down to me. But it will be less effective if the opponents are on our legs already. I just got another counter-move out of my head yesterday - kneel down.

You know what, find yourself a trained wrestler, any tradition, seriously, doesn't matter which, and try that.

Go on.

I'd love to see video of that. :D

Although I'll point out that in Mongolian wrestling you've lost the second you put a knee down.

There is actually a reason for this beyond machismo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most people's notion of how to stop a take down come from their experiments with fellow practioners that have very limited skill in that area.
Which is like a boxer saying he can neutralize the MT clinch because his sparring partner, with no experience in MT, wrapped his hands around his neck.
It does NOT work that way.

I can say this to you, I have average ( at best) TD skills and yet, when I visited a friends Karate dojo a while back and they were doing similar defenses, to make a point, I was bale to take down ALL of them, at will.
And I gave them the option to try ANYTHING the wanted to defend.

A trained wrestler would have eaten them alive and dry humped what was left.

[SimonM]

A trained wrestler would have eaten them alive and dry humped what was left.

Hey, I resent that, wrestlers don't usually hump the people they've thrown / rolled.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I resent that, wrestlers don't usually hump the people they've thrown / rolled.

They would these guys, trust me.
:D


I am being a bit harsh on them?
Yes because they suffered from the typical dillima that we see here.
Sad fact is that only a few "got it" after my impromptu take down exhibition.
One in particular was still adamant about the knee to the face and elbow to the neck, EVEN AFTER eh tried it over and over on me and failed and even after I showed him under what circumstances and how it would work.
He said that, if it was for real, it would be different.
To which I replied, " Yes, I would take you down harder, hurt you more and probably ass rape you".

[bawang]

ass rape .

you should have done it for reals, and quote mike tyson at the same time

[sanjuro_ronin]

you should have done it for reals, and quote mike tyson at the same time

And then gone out for KFC !

[bawang]

its not gay if you do it to your enemy, thats called vengeance.

i hear in thailand they cover it in broken glass.

[sanjuro_ronin]

its not gay if you do it to your enemy, thats called vengeance.

i hear in thailand they cover it in broken glass.

It's not gay if it's a 3way, LMAO !

[bawang]

has anybody mentioned sprawling yet?

i mean its been 11 pages someone mustve figured it out

[Dragonzbane76]

has anybody mentioned sprawling yet?

lol... i think a few times right before the bit about a$$ raping. :D

[MightyB]

Sprawling is for losers!!!

http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/import/season_09/sp_0914_01_v6.jpg?width=480

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys need to understand that lots was banned/made illegal in MMA because of the perception of the brutality.
They need to make it basically a combination of wrestling, judo and MT and such so they could get licended.
Since those systems are regulated and licensed then a sport combining them shoudl be allowed.
The only issue was what was permitted so they went with the combined striking prohibitions you find in MT and Boxing.
That's all there was too it.

[Lucas]

id say the odds of someone hitting the elbow on the back will have gone down not up


i do agree with you on this, but what made me post that was after watching a couple hours of UFC that day i noticed more than once in the fights where one guy goes for a single or double, defender sprawls, and ends up with his back against the fence. the guy is outclassed in terms of grappling and has maybe one under hook if that and i see him almost go for the elbows off instinct but has to check himself so he doesnt lose points/get disqualified. im not a extreme spectrum kind of guy, i get both ends of it, really i do. thats a severe extereme to say that there is absolutly no value to those types of strikes.

there actually are situations where a striking specialist with limited grappling experience ( or simply ability that is outclassed by his opponent) has only the option of striking the back of the neck or upper spine as a solid striking option. anyone who watches mma cant miss that. seriously. ive seen it numerous times and if i had time and permission to do so at work i would specifically find vids, break them down and proove it. but i cant do that.

off the very top of my head i remember watching this in a recent fight: spencer fisher vs thiago tavares. watch that fight and you will see exactly what im saying. you could soooo tell he wanted to drop some elbows on him. he was up against the fence in prime position for a large portion of that fight. were he allowd, tavares would likely have changed up his game plan a bit and tried to get him down off the fence. do i think it would have drastically changed the outcome? not really. but it should still be an option.

now keep in mind never have i advocated that elbow/fist strikes to the spine are takedown defense. i merely see them as a strike that should be allowed. if they dont hurt, then why not? right? right.

rather, after you have hit your sprawl, end up on the fence, cant get one or both underhooks in, it is one of few options that should be available for a striker to do some 'chipping' damage to your attacker.

again im not saying 'oh a elbow to the neck is takedown defense'. because i dont believe it is. ive been hit in the back of the neck and on the spine. it does hurt, and no way in hell would i want to have a 175-205 lb pro fighter do that to my neck 20 times. no way in hell.

rather i am merely pointing out the fact that they should be allowed. short power hooks to the body dont stop a guy but they do wear them down after enough. otherwise no one would ever even throw them, if they did nothing.

as an example; say you are fighting a guy who has pretty good take down defense, good enough that you just cant get the take down or the slam, you keep on ending up with him on the fence and every time you end up with his back on the fence he gets you with 1-4 solid elbows to the neck. after about 15 or 25 of those, you will be feeling it. you may not be detered at the beginning, but eventually you will start to change your game plan, and keep him off the fence if you can.

imo, there are situations where these strikes are valid.

FLAME ON!! :p

[Lucas]

You guys need to understand that lots was banned/made illegal in MMA because of the perception of the brutality.
They need to make it basically a combination of wrestling, judo and MT and such so they could get licended.
Since those systems are regulated and licensed then a sport combining them shoudl be allowed.
The only issue was what was permitted so they went with the combined striking prohibitions you find in MT and Boxing.
That's all there was too it.

how do you think american mma can go about lifting these bans? personally i love the soccer kicks in chinese mma.

[sanjuro_ronin]

how do you think american mma can go about lifting these bans? personally i love the soccer kicks in chinese mma.

Nah, State regulators would never allow it.
The knees and elbows that had no choice because of Muay Thai, but kicks to a fallen fighter?
Doubt it.
Of course you can go to Brazil and Russian and Asia where all that is allowed and you know what you find?
Guess.

[SimonM]

You guys need to understand that lots was banned/made illegal in MMA because of the perception of the brutality.
They need to make it basically a combination of wrestling, judo and MT and such so they could get licended.
Since those systems are regulated and licensed then a sport combining them shoudl be allowed.
The only issue was what was permitted so they went with the combined striking prohibitions you find in MT and Boxing.
That's all there was too it.

Even with those "debrutalizing" rules, it still took FOREVER for Ontario to agree to license it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even with those "debrutalizing" rules, it still took FOREVER for Ontario to agree to license it.

Well, you can blame Cheung for that.
Politics was all it was, the right palms had to be greased bro, that's all.

[Lucas]

Nah, State regulators would never allow it.
The knees and elbows that had no choice because of Muay Thai, but kicks to a fallen fighter?
Doubt it.
Of course you can go to Brazil and Russian and Asia where all that is allowed and you know what you find?
Guess.

fun to watch fights!!! lol

i totally get you, and i do understand, but i still like to see them. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

fun to watch fights!!! lol

i totally get you, and i do understand, but i still like to see them. :p

We do have to think of the health of the fighters too.
Fact is that IF the elbow to the back/neck worked consitently, it would be used and we would see it work over and over, like the sprawl.
But the thing is that not only doesn't it work very well, when it does work, FOR IT TO WORK, it has to cause some damage to an area with a lot of potential dangers.
Why risk even the health of one fighter ?

[Lucas]

We do have to think of the health of the fighters too.
Fact is that IF the elbow to the back/neck worked consitently, it would be used and we would see it work over and over, like the sprawl.
But the thing is that not only doesn't it work very well, when it does work, FOR IT TO WORK, it has to cause some damage to an area with a lot of potential dangers.
Why risk even the health of one fighter ?

for my entertainment :p

Jk of course.

I just am one of those people that believe those types of attacks do have merit for what they are. Too many people are willing to dismiss them entirely simply because you dont see them. Which I dont agree with.

[Frost]

for my entertainment :p

Jk of course.

I just am one of those people that believe those types of attacks do have merit for what they are. Too many people are willing to dismiss them entirely simply because you dont see them. Which I dont agree with.

how about dismissing them because, as in the video i posted, 9 times out of ten they do nothing..........

[Frost]

i do agree with you on this, but what made me post that was after watching a couple hours of UFC that day i noticed more than once in the fights where one guy goes for a single or double, defender sprawls, and ends up with his back against the fence. the guy is outclassed in terms of grappling and has maybe one under hook if that and i see him almost go for the elbows off instinct but has to check himself so he doesnt lose points/get disqualified. im not a extreme spectrum kind of guy, i get both ends of it, really i do. thats a severe extereme to say that there is absolutly no value to those types of strikes.

there actually are situations where a striking specialist with limited grappling experience ( or simply ability that is outclassed by his opponent) has only the option of striking the back of the neck or upper spine as a solid striking option. anyone who watches mma cant miss that. seriously. ive seen it numerous times and if i had time and permission to do so at work i would specifically find vids, break them down and proove it. but i cant do that.

off the very top of my head i remember watching this in a recent fight: spencer fisher vs thiago tavares. watch that fight and you will see exactly what im saying. you could soooo tell he wanted to drop some elbows on him. he was up against the fence in prime position for a large portion of that fight. were he allowd, tavares would likely have changed up his game plan a bit and tried to get him down off the fence. do i think it would have drastically changed the outcome? not really. but it should still be an option.

now keep in mind never have i advocated that elbow/fist strikes to the spine are takedown defense. i merely see them as a strike that should be allowed. if they dont hurt, then why not? right? right.

rather, after you have hit your sprawl, end up on the fence, cant get one or both underhooks in, it is one of few options that should be available for a striker to do some 'chipping' damage to your attacker.

again im not saying 'oh a elbow to the neck is takedown defense'. because i dont believe it is. ive been hit in the back of the neck and on the spine. it does hurt, and no way in hell would i want to have a 175-205 lb pro fighter do that to my neck 20 times. no way in hell.

rather i am merely pointing out the fact that they should be allowed. short power hooks to the body dont stop a guy but they do wear them down after enough. otherwise no one would ever even throw them, if they did nothing.

as an example; say you are fighting a guy who has pretty good take down defense, good enough that you just cant get the take down or the slam, you keep on ending up with him on the fence and every time you end up with his back on the fence he gets you with 1-4 solid elbows to the neck. after about 15 or 25 of those, you will be feeling it. you may not be detered at the beginning, but eventually you will start to change your game plan, and keep him off the fence if you can.

imo, there are situations where these strikes are valid.

FLAME ON!! :p

firstly if you have your back to the fence your hips are in danger, worry about the takeodnw before hitting them, cage work is the hardest thing to do in MMA, secondly good points and i replied in my last post before reading this so sorry for the one line response

As ronin said its perception, it might be dangerous, probably not but its seen as dangerous in the same way as non gloved striking is seen as dangerous, so they err on the side of causion in order to keep sponsers and commisions happy

[Lucas]

i get you, i was more just playing devils advocate rather than trying to ***** or moan lol.

honestly i suppose in review of it all, I would never want to see a guy take serious spinal damage just for that rare 1 time someone does get hurt, its just not worth it. im not THAT big of a jerk.

[SteveLau]

I would like to meet pro wrestlers to prove my point too. But it is hard to find them in the local area. More likely, we can find MMA and judo people though. Both styles have throws and ground techniques. Back to the counter-move, if we can sprawl while the opponent already has his hands on our legs, then surely we can sit on our knees. That means, if our upper trunk is already falling back, and our legs being lifting up at the knee, we will be with our back on the floor for certain.



Originally by Lucas

now keep in mind never have i advocated that elbow/fist strikes to the spine are takedown defense. i merely see them as a strike that should be allowed. if they dont hurt, then why not? right? right.


It is unlikely that such elbow strike does not hurt.:cool:

As I said, being attacked by a leg take down is a critical situation. Any counter-move needs to be quick and very effective. Also, the next move, the attack needs to be very effective. Because we have not got out of the grab yet. If we do employ elbow strike, it works better without pad on. Again, hammer fist is also a good weapon at the time.


P.S. My final words on elbow and knee strike. Yes, they should be allowed, but on condition. That is with pad on at least. Sanda tournament does not allow these weapons, but training does.



KC
Hong Kong

[SimonM]

If you are sitting on your knees your center of gravity will be directly beneath you at the same time that your balance is going to be way too fragile. When I suggested a wrestler in any tradition would be trained to exploit such a beginners mistake I was including shuai jiao, JJ, and CERTAINLY judo.

Wrestling, regardless of the origin, is about half made from the application of the dynamic balance that Taiji theorizes. The difference is that while only the best taiji schools practice non-cooperative push hands, most wrestling schools start out with comparable drills on day 1.

Simply put, a grapler who is touching you is taught to manipulate your balance. From your knees, that balance becomes much too static. You will end up on your back, mounted by the wrestler in very short order.

[Dragonzbane76]

strikes against take down have to be timed. Knee's/punches/kicks.

You have to understand by the time a good grappler has his hands on your knees there is not much you can do but try and force you legs back into sprawl. This silliness of trying to strike at this moment is just that foolishness. You have to take into consideration momentum. And usually a shot has that momentum. A lot of traditionalist do not understand this because frankly they've never had it placed on them or trained in it, of course there are exceptions. Of course if we are talking about a PIC it would be different? I'm assuming we are talking about the shot? A leg/ankle pic is a little different because it's usually from the clinch not with much momentum behind it. I think our some peoples understanding of grappling might not be what we are speaking of?

[SimonM]

A leg/ankle pic is a little different because it's usually from the clinch not with much momentum behind it. I think our some peoples understanding of grappling might not be what we are speaking of?

Here is where my bias, as a wrestler, is going to show through.

If it's from a clinch, yes, there are some strikes that work. The elbow from clinch, not the dropping elbow but the horizontal one, can be an effective tool, as can hooks and uppercuts if you know how to use them properly in close, however you still won't have that much time.

I'd still prefer to bring it to the ground under my control at that point, and assume a superior position once there - and that often means going for the sprawl.

[Dragonzbane76]

agree, sprawl is the king of take down defense. 100%.

As a wrestler myself I like to bring it to the ground in control as well.

What I was stating is that I think people have differing opinions on what is a single/double compared to a started clinch with a pic. I think many of the traditionalist don't understand there is a difference.

[SimonM]

The difference is that with with a pic you don't have a 200+ LB guy driving his shoulder into your gut with quite as much acceleration behind him.

That is an important difference, but more important still is to actually include some sort of actual wrestling in your practise.

I don't care what name you put on it, Shuai Jiao, Jiu Jutsu, Judo, Folk Wrestling, hell call it Skip-to-the-Loo, but trying to come up with wrestling "defences" without understanding how to wrestle is a losing proposition.

Especially because, in wrestling, the line between attack and defence is more than a little blurry.