Reason why were so obsessed with MMA on a TCMA forum...

[MightyB]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

[MasterKiller]

The truth is, MMA is a more accurate sparring/fighting format for kung fu than san shou/san da. Little gloves, limited rules, and lots of opportunites to apply locks and chokes.

[hskwarrior]

I'm still waiting to see why MMA want to gravitate to a TCMA forum. Is it to bash us? is it to bully us? Is it a ploy to get people to leave TCMA and go to MMA?

[lkfmdc]

The only people who rattle on about "mma" are those who have built castles in the air and live in kung fu fairy land .... When crazy people with delusions are confronted with reality, they ALWAYS respond violently, it's textbook

[MightyB]

I'm still waiting to see why MMA want to gravitate to a TCMA forum. Is it to bash us? is it to bully us? Is it a ploy to get people to leave TCMA and go to MMA?

Because most of the "knucklehead nuttriders" are actually TCMA too or were TCMA first and see that it's still relevant. Where any disagreement comes in is that MMA Knuckleheads aren't willing to say that any one thing is the ultimate.

[lkfmdc]

Because most of the "knucklehead nuttriders" are actually TCMA too or were TCMA first and see that it's still relevant. Where any disagreement comes in is that MMA Knuckleheads aren't willing to say that any one thing is the ultimate.

ALL of the people called "MMA people" on here actually have backgrounds in CMA. ALL OF THEM. The "kung fu fairies" (tm) just want everyone to say CMA is the most advanced, the most effective and the best and don't want anything like reality sneaking into their fantasy lands

[MightyB]

ALL of the people called "MMA people" on here actually have backgrounds in CMA. ALL OF THEM. The "kung fu fairies" (tm) just want everyone to say CMA is the most advanced, the most effective and the best and don't want anything like reality sneaking into their fantasy lands

If you have a mac - press (option R) and you get ®. So now we can say "Kung Fu Fairies®" :D

[David Jamieson]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

This is true. It is folly to ignore how others train when one is pursuing martial art.
You should always have an eye to what they are doing and to take what you can from those successful aspects of their training that are not overlapping or found in your own.

I don't think that is the issue and I also think that the fairy land kung fu people are irrelevant to Kung Fu and the development of it. They are there to keep it stagnant with old ways and closed eyes.

screw those guys, lol.

TO be fair though, there is a brand of ignorance that arises when a person with experience and knowledge of neither picks one because of it's popularity and that's where we get a lot of the sparks.

some kid, fresh off watching the latest UFC calls a 20 year practitioner a H0M0 and loser and then proceeds to prattle on about how an RNC would drop the Kung Fu guy like a bad habit and so on and so forth.

Screw that guy too. lol

There is common sense and common ground. Not wanting to find it or take it is retarded essentially.

[lkfmdc]

I also think that the fairy land kung fu people are irrelevant to Kung Fu

screw those guys, lol.



you shouldn't have locked the other thread, you should have let hardwork keep spouting, it's all he is good for anyway

[hskwarrior]

Hardwork, people are calling you to this thread. Do what you do. hahahaha

[David Jamieson]

you shouldn't have locked the other thread, you should have let hardwork keep spouting, it's all he is good for anyway

It was spiraling into a flaming nose dive.
Can't have that. :p

[lkfmdc]

It was spiraling into a flaming nose dive.
Can't have that. :p

He's in a constant state of flaming nose dive, yup, definitely "FLAMING"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Answering legit questions and situations posed by MMA is NOT obsessing about it.
Fact is that TCMA is MMA, it is a mix of MA and it is a mix of martial art techniques - punch , kick, throw and lock.
As such MMA is DIRECTLY relevant to TCMA.

[David Jamieson]

Hey I've got an idea, let's not derail this with our personal beefs with other posters here!

what a great idea!

[hskwarrior]

Not cool dude, not cool at all, trust me on this one.
Not appropriate at all.

yup. not cool at all.

[lkfmdc]

Hey I've got an idea, let's not derail this with our personal beefs with other posters here!

what a great idea!

If he is in fact a little light in the kung fu shoes, there's nothing wrong with that ;)

To stay ON TOPIC, you must note that when the typical kung fu fairy (tm) can't offer a reasonable argument or evidence THEY are the first ones to resort to personal attacks

and I'd say suggesting people didn't learn "real stuff" IS a personal attack.

[lkfmdc]

Answering legit questions and situations posed by MMA is NOT obsessing about it.
Fact is that TCMA is MMA, it is a mix of MA and it is a mix of martial art techniques - punch , kick, throw and lock.
As such MMA is DIRECTLY relevant to TCMA.

well, THIS, of course, but none of the "kung fu fairies" (tm) acknowledge this

[IronWeasel]

Answering legit questions and situations posed by MMA is NOT obsessing about it.
Fact is that TCMA is MMA, it is a mix of MA and it is a mix of martial art techniques - punch , kick, throw and lock.
As such MMA is DIRECTLY relevant to TCMA.



I think that when people say MMA what they mean is the competitive ruleset.

Not literal crosstraining.

So, some threads have people talking about two different things without realizing it at first.

I do it too. when I say MMA, what I usually mean is a competition in a ring/cage. But to some it could mean simply training hsing-i, shuai chiao plus wrestling.

[lkfmdc]

MMA is a mindset

many "traditional" people think you can only do what your sifu and/or system teaches. They certainly don't think you can go outside Chinese martial arts

MMA people care about what works, they don't care where it comes from, which is why they are better for it

[donjitsu2]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

I think for some it has a lot to do with being too attached to your style.

I know a lot of martial artists (kung fu guys, karate guys, "combatives" guys) who insist that their style has an answer to everything.

MMA becomes almost a threat to the belief systems of people with that mindset because MMA seeks to have an answer to everything too.

The difference, often times, is a MMA guy goes out to prove it while the Kung Fu guy (or the Karate guy or the "combatives" guy) pretty much sticks to his own little circle of training partners.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[lkfmdc]

my sifu DID have the answer to everything, it was "it must be out there somewhere so go looking for it" (which is exactly what he did and never made bones about it)

[Jimbo]

IMO, there shouldn't be such a great divide between CMA and MMA. Like Sanjuro said, CMA is MMA. They were originally admixtures of many fighting systems. In fact, it's traditional to look outside of what you know, if it will help you improve/make you more effective. If they could have back in the day, the old masters who actually fought would not have ignored modern MMA. The Chinese certainly didn't ignore Western boxing in the last century.

It really doesn't make sense, from an effectiveness standpoint, to limit one's self to the CMA realm only, or to say that arts outside of CMA are irrelevant. CMA has some VERY effective concepts and skills; so do arts outside of it. There's nothing wrong with specializing in a particular art, CMA or otherwise; but to actively ignore what's proving highly effective because it may not fit a certain paradigm is not "traditional." That doesn't necessarily mean to drop everything and do modern MMA if it's not your thing, but at least be open to the fact that life is change. And that what's happening with modern MMA isn't so nontraditional after all.

[David Jamieson]

If he is in fact a little light in the kung fu shoes, there's nothing wrong with that ;)

To stay ON TOPIC, you must note that when the typical kung fu fairy (tm) can't offer a reasonable argument or evidence THEY are the first ones to resort to personal attacks

and I'd say suggesting people didn't learn "real stuff" IS a personal attack.

I don't offer much forgiveness for the mma fairytalers either. lol
I've seen proponents of mma who couldn't give argument resort to ad hominem as well. Nobody is really immune from that. It's just testyness and pretty common even within the same pursuit!

We are human, we have feathers, they get ruffled, we get ****ed.

Still.

We can't get the mesh happening if everyone thinks everyone else is stupid.
Fact of the matter is, there is a refinement in modern martial arts that cuts through a lot of slurry and quite frankly made up and ineffective aspects you will find in other arts. It's no secret.

Equally, there are things in traditional martial arts that are quite useful to someone with a more modern pursuit. I know a few guys who pursue traditional principles etc outside of the regular training lines. They want an edge and they are looking for it in the material that came before or they are developing an edge with their own ideas which WILL be lifted if they are effective.

Practice is always the main ingredient.

No practice? You can talk all you like if you don't practice, but in all seriousness, if you don't practice it, you don't know it and you really shouldn't speak to it.

Direct experience is a great teacher. Unfortunately, bickering is chosen over that too often. :(

[Ray Pina]

I'm still waiting to see why MMA want to gravitate to a TCMA forum. Is it to bash us? is it to bully us? Is it a ploy to get people to leave TCMA and go to MMA?

I'm here because I'm interested in TCMA and MMA... when the bashing fits -- for whatever style -- so be it.

You can keep doing what you've always done or you can be open to learn more. Depends on what stage you are at.... if you're just starting week 4 of Wing Chun, that should be your focus.

If you've trained it for 7 years and want to spar, maybe find your structure is a little iffy under fire, maybe you want to complement with boxing. Or take BJJ for when your structure fails.

Who cares about style names, lineage, belts, disciples.... you face someone to see and one of you wins. There will be a reason. Usually a couple.

Then you decide: improve and compare again. Or stay the same and don't go out.

[taai gihk yahn]

It was spiraling into a flaming nose dive.
Can't have that. :p

yeah, but we didn't even get to say, "Goodbye Dr. Nick!" :mad:


"GOODBYE, DR. NICK!!!" :)

[SPJ]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

I have the habit of reading inside kung fu monthly since 1970s.

it was a nice monthly with cool interviews. and it is in english.

after feb 2011, I am getting MMA monthly with nice techniques and center fold girlie pictures, too.

I used to bind 12 issues together. you know punch holes and loop them thru with a binder. so I may read them on yearly per binder.

I started to read MMA since my subcription to inside kung fu is still going on.

---

[ginosifu]

Reason why were so obsessed with MMA on a TCMA forum... is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

I think that we are all proud and have faith in our TCMA. I have my opinion and sometimes I want to make sure the MMA peeps understand that we TCMA fighters can hang with the best of the MMA. All of us that sit here and defend TCMA don't want MMA peeps to think that we are weak (even thought hey do anyway).


The truth is, MMA is a more accurate sparring/fighting format for kung fu than san shou/san da. Little gloves, limited rules, and lots of opportunites to apply locks and chokes.

I would have to disagree with this. Kuo Shu is probably closer to TCMA just because the of the MMA cage allows for grapplers to have the advantage. I have seen some good strikers do well i the cage, mostly it's geared for the wrestler and their game.

I think we TCMA should try and support as many local events as we can to bring up the popularity of Kung Fu in the Ring. Events such as San Shou, San Da, Kuo Shu etc etc. Start a fighting class and start taking your student s to these events.

Sifu Ross has San Da in NY, Here in Cleveland we have San Shou, in Baltimore they have kuo shu (I think Chen Liang Huangs tourney was in July?), Taiji legacy in Texas etc etc. There are plenty of places to go and fight, so get up off your asses and get a group together and quit crying that MMA guys are on our forum!

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

MMA is a more accurate sparring/fighting format for kung fu than san shou/san da. Little gloves, limited rules, and lots of opportunites to apply locks and chokes.
You will need a lot of throwing skill in San Shou/San Da. It can preserve the throwing skill for the future generation. The mobility (hit and run) is as important as the ground skill. It's much harder to take your opponent down without going down yourself. The balance require is much higher in stand up game.

The San Shou/San Da and MMA will lead the TCMA into different directions. I just hate to see the single leg, double legs, pull guard, and jump guard are the only 4 takedown skill trained in the future generation.

[goju]

well mma has gained so much attention and its a semi new way for a martial artists to express there style. Perhaps the best way we have.

I don't think mma should interfere with Traditional arts at all. I know it hasn't for me and my styles and the rest of the tradtional community should have welcomed it with open arms as well.

Largely i think the only reason they cant or wont is because they are threatened by it. In others words they know it will expose them one way or another.:p

[YouKnowWho]

On the other hand, I'm glad to see that our MMA friends can help us to point out to those who believe if they can stand still (ZZ) for 2 hours, their opponent will drop dead in front of them. Some TCMA guys believe that TCMA can be trained "solo". I find that I may agree with our MMA friends more than with our TCMA friends on that issue.

- "Internal" MA guys are teabaggers,
- TCMA guys are left liberal.
- San Shou/San Da guys are socialism,
- MMA guys are communist.

I used to call David Ross as "communist". Compare to MMA guys, he is only "socialism" after all.

[Dragonzbane76]

I would have to disagree with this. Kuo Shu is probably closer to TCMA just because the of the MMA cage allows for grapplers to have the advantage. I have seen some good strikers do well i the cage, mostly it's geared for the wrestler and their game.

Have to disagree with you on grapplers having the advantage. I know you've expressed this before and I think we've had the discussion before actually in another thread.

Honestly I think that it's evening out mostly now. Grapplers did have the advantage in the beginning but that was due to lack of exposure on most cases. Today I think that almost everyone that goes into the ring have backgrounds in all aspects evening the playing field and the exposure goes without saying these days.

[Mas Judt]

I generally get along better with MMA players than 'traditionalists.' When I think of 'traditionalists' I remember the Shuai Chiao club (Which was fantastic and results oriented). But that is very different from most of today's 'TCMA'. While there are some groups who are very, very good, I tend to find most aren't, tend to be close-minded and are more concerned about 'status' and 'importance' than being good and enjoying the practice.

I disagree with a lot of things in 'MMA' style, but I have no problem converting them to a little bit of old style. It just needs to be presented realistically and without silk pajamas. But that realistic part is missing from a LOT of TCMA. Not all. But a lot.

[hungheikwan]

Are we talking about the sport of MMA, or the techniques of MMA? It seems that MMA fighters have the advantage of accumulated "mat-time", constantly affirming and confirming their techniques as valid or invalid. This is good for all martial artists, as it adds to the collective knowledge of Punch/Kick/Grapple and Takedown applications. By comparison, many TCMA practitioners, who only train in forms, may seem less credible. It really boils down to why you train - sports/competition or self-defense. To wit: the MMA fighter responds to a choke-hold by countering and attempting to gain the scoring advantage. The TCMA fighter responds to the choke-hold by gouging out the attacker's eyes with their thumbs.

[Ray Pina]

Rules, gloves.... these are excuses.

If you're on the level and think you got skillz you go out.... where ever you can. If you don't, but want to appear to be, you get all the gear, get hip to all the terminology, read all the literature, and then explain how, for some reason, that you're such a bad a$$... using words, or cooperative video for the really desperate to impress.

It's a no brainer. If you study chess books and play vs the computer all the time and think you're good, sooner or later you'll sit down to play someone who feels the same way. The more you like it, the more you'll do it, the better you will get. And the process feeds itself.

[David Jamieson]

On the other hand, I'm glad to see that our MMA friends can help us to point out to those who believe if they can stand still (ZZ) for 2 hours, their opponent will drop dead in front of them. Some TCMA guys believe that TCMA can be trained "solo". I find that I may agree with our MMA friends more than with our TCMA friends on that issue.

- "Internal" MA guys are teabaggers,
- TCMA guys are left liberal.
- San Shou/San Da guys are socialism,
- MMA guys are communist.

I used to call David Ross as "communist". Compare to MMA guys, he is only "socialism" after all.



No martial art can be trained solo in perpetuity.
Really, you know guys that believe that? Do you work with special needs people or something? lol

My list is like this:
Internal = masturbation
tcma= pass the time, do cool exercise
san shou = what was wrong with kickboxing? Not Chinese enough for ya?
mma= sport beatings made popular by men aged 16-26

:D

p.s Dave is a commie. lol

[MightyB]

I think we TCMA should try and support as many local events as we can to bring up the popularity of Kung Fu in the Ring. Events such as San Shou, San Da, Kuo Shu etc etc. Start a fighting class and start taking your student s to these events.

Sifu Ross has San Da in NY, Here in Cleveland we have San Shou, in Baltimore they have kuo shu (I think Chen Liang Huangs tourney was in July?), Taiji legacy in Texas etc etc. There are plenty of places to go and fight, so get up off your asses and get a group together and quit crying that MMA guys are on our forum!

ginosifu

So a MMA promoter calls us and wants to see about getting some of our fighters in their event - they offer hotel rooms, gas money, and food - this is amateur so no prize money though. Total cost to enter: nothing but time. A San Shou / San Da event - well you have to drive to it (gas money), get a couple of rooms (not cheap), and then pay to enter the event ($50 +)...

so where would you spend your competition time?

[MasterKiller]

So a MMA promoter calls us and wants to see about getting some of our fighters in their event - they offer hotel rooms, gas money, and food - this is amateur so no prize money though. Total cost to enter: nothing but time. A San Shou / San Da event - well you have to drive to it (gas money), get a couple of rooms (not cheap), and then pay to enter the event ($50 +)...

so where would you spend your competition time?

THIS. Paying to fight San Shou in small crap venues with no bond is ridiculous.

I got TWO free trips to Miami last month, including air and hotel. My other coach just spent a weekend in New Orleans for free.

Or, I could've paid Jimmy Wong $80 per fighter for my guys to fight in his tournament.

Not a hard choice.

[ginosifu]

So a MMA promoter calls us and wants to see about getting some of our fighters in their event - they offer hotel rooms, gas money, and food - this is amateur so no prize money though. Total cost to enter: nothing but time. A San Shou / San Da event - well you have to drive to it (gas money), get a couple of rooms (not cheap), and then pay to enter the event ($50 +)...

so where would you spend your competition time?

It's easy to let these guys buy us out. Sometimes it might be a bit more expensive, but we need to stick together if we are going make this work.


THIS. Paying to fight San Shou in small crap venues with no bond is ridiculous.

I got TWO free trips to Miami last month, including air and hotel. My other coach just spent a weekend in New Orleans for free.

Or, I could've paid Jimmy Wong $80 per fighter for my guys to fight in his tournament.

Not a hard choice.

MK you are a Sell Out. You have sold your self to the cheapest bidder. If you want to be true to your art then try and support your art, even if it might cost a bit more.

Are we going to let ourselves be bought out by the MMA guys cuz they have the big bucks?

pathetic

ginosifu

[MasterKiller]

MK you are a Sell Out. You have sold your self to the cheapest bidder. If you want to be true to your art then try and support your art, even if it might cost a bit more.

Are we going to let ourselves be bought out by the MMA guys cuz they have the big bucks?

pathetic

ginosifu

LOL at selling out. I put my Kung Fu fighters up against anyone. One fought an Olympic Bronze medalist.

My Kung Fu fighters compete in front of sell-out crowds and have even been on replays of HDNet fights. As opposed to "keeping it real" at kung fu tournaments with 50 people watching????

If anything, guys like you are ducking REAL competition in MMA because you don't want to be exposed.

My Kung Fu fighters HONOR my lineage every time they compete in MMA.

If that's selling out, consider me sold.

[MightyB]

It's easy to let these guys buy us out. Sometimes it might be a bit more expensive, but we need to stick together if we are going make this work.



I would if I could but my wife spends all of my moniez.



Are we going to let ourselves be bought out by the MMA guys cuz they have the big bucks?


On a side note: the moniez spending wife heard how I spanked the local reigning 155 pounder in a grappling match and said that I can fight MMA if I want to... I'm debating it - local promoter saw it too because he happened to be training with us scouting out the talent - he's being pretty buddy buddy right now. I'm getting a little old though. Maybe I will - don't know yet, to be honest I'm kind've scared about the striking. And before you jump my shiite - anybody who says they're not afraid of fighting's probably never been in one... at least one with a skilled opponent.

[ginosifu]

LOL at selling out. I put my Kung Fu fighters up against anyone. One fought an Olympic Bronze medalist.

My Kung Fu fighters compete in front of sell-out crowds and have even been on replays of HDNet fights. As opposed to "keeping it real" at kung fu tournaments with 50 people watching????

If anything, guys like you are ducking REAL competition in MMA because you don't want to be exposed.

My Kung Fu fighters HONOR my lineage ever time they compete in MMA.

This not about the skill level of you or your fighters. I trust you honor your teacher(s) well. This is more about supporting kung fu because we are KUNG FU players.

Tournaments on HDnet (whatever that is) may or may not have more skilled fighters than those at a tournament with 50 people watching. MMA tournaments are good but and you can go to them with your fighters, there is nothing wrong with that. However, if given the choice between an FREE MMA tournament and paying for a San Shou Tournament is not supporting kung fu in my opinion.

I have fought amateur MMA style and won but, that was just to try it out. I went back to Shuai Chiao and San Shou cuz I wish to support kung fu.

There are plenty of San Shou, Kuo Shu, San Da, etc etc tournaments around and I think we should be attending those. If you chose MMA over Kung Fu tourneys then you are really not supporting us.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

It's easy to let these guys buy us out. Sometimes it might be a bit more expensive, but we need to stick together if we are going make this work.
this is the mentality that is hamstringing TCMA - that it's an "us vs them" situation; this sort of insular thinking is an evolutionary cul-de-sac in today;s world; also, "sticking together" in the TCMA world really means bad-mouthing and screwing the next guy - and that's why u have these events where it's all about $ for the individual promoter, which does nothing to further the big picture


MK you are a Sell Out. You have sold your self to the cheapest bidder. If you want to be true to your art then try and support your art, even if it might cost a bit more.

Are we going to let ourselves be bought out by the MMA guys cuz they have the big bucks?

pathetic

ginosifu

really? srsly?!? the man sends his people to legitimate competative venues that treat his fighters well, and have wide exposure - in other words, probably more people c this one event than 10 San Shou events combined; and if his guys do well, when people ask what they do, he can hold his head up high and say TCMA - and then people will say, "wow, TCMA fighters are not just kung fu form fairies, they can hold their own in the cage"

this same exact mentality is what almost killed the osteopathic profession: they wanted to "keep it pure", meaning out of the hands of chiros, PT's, etc.; and they did such a good job of that, that now less than 2% of DO's do manual therapy; all except for John Upledger, DO, who "sold out" and started teaching osteopathic cranial techniques to just about anyone - sure, he watered it down, but over 50,000 people have taken his courses, and as a result, now u c more people these days looking for osteopathic manual medicine than u did 20 yrs before, because he got the word out...

[Lucas]

am i the only one that thought it was cool when MK called his guys kungfu fighters? i think thats neat. i want to see more kungfu fighters in the cage cleaning up.

[mooyingmantis]

Answering legit questions and situations posed by MMA is NOT obsessing about it.
Fact is that TCMA is MMA, it is a mix of MA and it is a mix of martial art techniques - punch , kick, throw and lock.
As such MMA is DIRECTLY relevant to TCMA.

Agreed!

After 40 plus years of training, may I make an observation?

In the "old days" TCMA guys really didn't need to train "against" Karateka or Judoka/Jujutsuan. Respect, decency, etc. was taught in most martial arts schools. Though each may have had an arrogance that their art was "teh deadly", it was a moot point. We were told that fighting was the last resort in a peaceful society. Even in tournaments, participants conducted themselves in a polite and brotherly manner.

People as a whole were much more civilized 20-40 years ago. Today most the MMA people that I personally know, go to training halls that do not espouse any moral virtues. They seem to think that their goal is to be the next Billy BadAzz and most act like *****s.

The "art" is gone, since most have dismissed forms as only for forms faeries. Their morality is gone because they are taught that winning is the only worthwhile virtue.

Sadly, this same thing is seen constantly in this forum. MMA advocates act like schoolyard bullies flaming other members and sidetracking many threads. It amazes me that adults, let alone school owners act like grade school children.

Though I usually disagree with nearly every Off-topic forum post made by Jamieson :), I think he is doing a great job stopping the BS that goes on here. Many accuse him of being heavy-handed. I don't think he is rough enough.

Threads like "the reason Hardwork disrupted the other thread" should be deleted as soon as they start. Four pages and 56 posts of mostly childishness. And some of you are teachers????? :eek: Sad! Very Sad!

I am not "obsessed" with MMA. I have trained traditional jujutsu, aikido and TCMA for decades. I guess I was MMA before it was a marketing technique.

Unfortunately I now feel that I have to teach my students to neutralize MMA fighters because MMA peeps I know, my son has met at school, and many who promote MMA on this forum are just bullies looking for a fight. I don't care how tough they are in the ring. I just want to make sure my students can pound them to dust on the street, if that is their last recourse.

Like most fads, I still believe the MMA fad will fade away. I hope it happens soon. Then maybe schools will again teach their students the importance of conducting themselves like gentlemen. Doesn't martial arts have a bad enough stigma already?

[Wayfaring]

Reason why were so obsessed with MMA on a TCMA forum.

Because it's better.

:D

[Wayfaring]

LOL at selling out. I put my Kung Fu fighters up against anyone. One fought an Olympic Bronze medalist.


MK,

I TOLD you guys to lay off the Slovakian curling team....

[SPJ]

everything that we do

we play safe and fair

MMA or CMA san da/lei tai

---

they are not blood thristy sports.

--

face got smashed up or cut or bleeding with swollen eyes

messed up jaw bone and tmj

---

that is why we wear glove and helmets etc etc

---

sports with safety

--

safety and rules of fairness

these are 2 common obsessions of MMA and san da sport formats

--

if they show blood

then they may be called blood sport

and not "fighting" sport--

---

[MasterKiller]

MK,

I TOLD you guys to lay off the Slovakian curling team....

That b1tch had it coming....

[MasterKiller]

There are plenty of San Shou, Kuo Shu, San Da, etc etc tournaments around and I think we should be attending those. If you chose MMA over Kung Fu tourneys then you are really not supporting us.

ginosifu

Why would I PAY to put my guys in a fight and risk their health with no boxing commission supervision, with no insurance bond, that no one watches, against C level competition that only trains San Shou for 2 months before a tournament so they can fight after their form, when my guys get PAID to test themselves against world-class fighters who train their asses off?

If San Shou and Kuo Shu would put together legitimate shows with proper supervision and take care of my fighters, I would be there. But fighting at AAU or Legends of Kung Fu involves a ton of risk with practically no reward, and I'm not going to do it.

[SPJ]

Why would I PAY to put my guys in a fight and risk their health with no boxing commission supervision, with no insurance bond, that no one watches, against C level competition that only trains San Shou for 2 months before a tournament so they can fight after their form, when my guys get PAID to test themselves against world-class fighters who train their asses off?

If San Shou and Kuo Shu would put together legitimate shows with proper supervision and take care of my fighters, I would be there. But fighting at AAU or Legends of Kung Fu involves a ton of risk with practically no reward, and I'm not going to do it.

very well said.

:cool:

[taai gihk yahn]

Why would I PAY to put my guys in a fight and risk their health with no boxing commission supervision, with no insurance bond, that no one watches, against C level competition that only trains San Shou for 2 months before a tournament so they can fight after their form, when my guys get PAID to test themselves against world-class fighters who train their asses off?

If San Shou and Kuo Shu would put together legitimate shows with proper supervision and take care of my fighters, I would be there. But fighting at AAU or Legends of Kung Fu involves a ton of risk with practically no reward, and I'm not going to do it.

QFT +100

to tell MK to go to Kung Fu tournaments to "support the art" is just nuts: the guys running the tournaments r not treating it as an art, they r using it as a source of revenue - how about THEY support the art and treat the full-contact fighters in the same manner that they are treated by the MMA promotors MK allues to?!? - if MK showed up and asked if his guys could fight for free to "support the art", he'd be laughed out of the venue;

no, fuk the art, and fuk the TCMA community - its stubborn refusal to adhere to the level of standards that other organizations adhere to has gone on ong enough: there is no accountabiity, no oversight, nothing - when there was some attempt to bring a legitimate governing body to TCMA in the early 1990's via AAU, the "community" acted like a mechanical bull at full tilt - because otherwise, if they went along w it, the whole "back room" cronyism network wouldn't operate, and that was just unnacceptable;

MK is on the right path; more TCMA folks should join him;

[mooyingmantis]

Why would I PAY to put my guys in a fight and risk their health with no boxing commission supervision, with no insurance bond, that no one watches, against C level competition that only trains San Shou for 2 months before a tournament so they can fight after their form, when my guys get PAID to test themselves against world-class fighters who train their asses off?

If San Shou and Kuo Shu would put together legitimate shows with proper supervision and take care of my fighters, I would be there. But fighting at AAU or Legends of Kung Fu involves a ton of risk with practically no reward, and I'm not going to do it.

MK has a valid point as far as risk-vs-reward.

[ginosifu]

Why would I PAY to put my guys in a fight and risk their health with no boxing commission supervision, with no insurance bond, that no one watches, against C level competition that only trains San Shou for 2 months before a tournament so they can fight after their form, when my guys get PAID to test themselves against world-class fighters who train their asses off?

If San Shou and Kuo Shu would put together legitimate shows with proper supervision and take care of my fighters, I would be there. But fighting at AAU or Legends of Kung Fu involves a ton of risk with practically no reward, and I'm not going to do it.

If everyone had your attitude, we would have no competitors what so ever.

Yes, there are some redneck san shou tourneys with no insurance, etc. However there are some good ones. We run one every year, we are Bonded, Insured, we have Doctors and we provide professional equipment to all the fighters. We usually have all divisions filled.

We have good fighters at all weights, anyone with 2 months of training at a BJJ or Kung Fu school and tries to compete will get crushed in the first round. This only happens at those half assed tourneys you are talking about.

These will happen less if you try to support our kung fu brothers and sister. This does not mean you should never do MMA tourneys... If that is your gig then so be it. I just like to see us together.

ginosifu

[Dragonzbane76]

no, fuk the art, and fuk the TCMA community - its stubborn refusal to adhere to the level of standards that other organizations adhere to has gone on ong enough: there is no accountabiity, no oversight, nothing - when there was some attempt to bring a legitimate governing body to TCMA in the early 1990's via AAU, the "community" acted like a mechanical bull at full tilt - because otherwise, if they went along w it, the whole "back room" cronyism network wouldn't operate, and that was just unnacceptable;


Oh NO YOU DIDN'T JUST GO THERE! :D

[Lokhopkuen]

http://health4lifellc.com/files/2011/04/vomit-cartoon.gif

[bawang]

no, fuk the art, and fuk the TCMA community

i agree with you we must destroy kung fu for the greater good

[YouKnowWho]

When there was no Kung Fu tournament, I had to compete in Karate tournament even the local golden glove boxing tournament. After the Kung Fu tournament become available, I have never competed in none-TCMA tournament. If we don't support TCMA then who will?

Together, we will be strong. Separate, we will be weak.

[bawang]

we must instill spirit of manliness and strong in kung fu


if you do not have strong, you are not kung fu. you are homersexual who like to dance in silken pajama


kung fu = contest of manliness

[YouKnowWho]

Long live TCMA! :D

[bawang]

for all the praise and supposed love for kung fu, most american kung fu guys cant speak a word of chinese.


but they can name all them fancy japanese judo karate terms. hizo shizo. nagi saki. waka faka.

[SoCo KungFu]

we must instill spirit of manliness and strong in kung fu


if you do not have strong, you are not kung fu. you are homersexual who like to dance in silken pajama


kung fu = contest of manliness

http://www.hulu.com/watch/33846/the-simpsons-homer-sexual

:D

[bawang]

this is no time to be joking.


in order to save kung fu, kung fu must die.

[SoCo KungFu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sDxPeZmfko

[Vash]

If everyone had your attitude, we would have no competitors what so ever.

Considering the risk v reward MK showed, as well as the level of competition between the venues, I don't see that as an issue. Which will help the practitioners grow - little competition with lower external stress or higher competition with a lot on the line?

I doubt students/fighters would be getting invites again if they lost.




Yes, there are some redneck san shou tourneys with no insurance, etc. However there are some good ones. We run one every year, we are Bonded, Insured, we have Doctors and we provide professional equipment to all the fighters. We usually have all divisions filled.


That's awesome - but uncommon in the extreme. Will not spread so long as certain personalities use the tournaments to make money vs making the art stronger.


We have good fighters at all weights, anyone with 2 months of training at a BJJ or Kung Fu school and tries to compete will get crushed in the first round. This only happens at those half assed tourneys you are talking about.


That's great - but uncommon, again. Also, where is the "victory" or growth in "crushing" someone with much less experience, regardless of art? Where is the "good attitude," the "honor?"


These will happen less if you try to support our kung fu brothers and sister. This does not mean you should never do MMA tourneys... If that is your gig then so be it. I just like to see us together.

Us? Us? There's your problem right there, sifu - there ain't no "us," because there isn't a "them." There is only progress or regression.

I'm a karate guy, but I have to train with an MMA group to see exactly how my technique, my training, is going to fly if I have to keep my face looking so **** sexy. I can't get a karate guy to spar at any speed but "look what I can do."

[YouKnowWho]

this is no time to be joking.


in order to save kung fu, kung fu must die.
In order to save Kung Fu, the "modern Wushu" and "Taiji for health" must die.

[Lucas]

Kungfu should start a new sport. Exactly like mma but you have to do a form first to proove you know some CMA. I am genius.

[PalmStriker]

I'm still waiting to see why MMA want to gravitate to a TCMA forum. Is it to bash us? is it to bully us? Is it a ploy to get people to leave TCMA and go to MMA?
It is to learn why they are so attracted to the magnetism of TCMA. Hidden knowledge.
:D

[Hardwork108]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

Actually, from what I have seen the MMA-ists are more obssessed than the TCMA-ists. After all, they are the ones who are always posting in this KUNG FU FORUM with their often (not always) anti TCMA "wisdom".

I doubt that ther are that many TCMA posters who lurk in MMA forums to criticize their ways.....

[MightyB]

for all the praise and supposed love for kung fu, most american kung fu guys cant speak a word of chinese.


but they can name all them fancy japanese judo karate terms. hizo shizo. nagi saki. waka faka.

Actually that's not true - if someone were to speak Cantonese to describe 7* mantis martial moves - I'd know exactly what they were talking about. Deciphering the "Americanized" spellings is a completely different matter... I have no idea WTF people are trying to write out half the time on the mantis forum.

[Brule]

I find it funny that we have one guy calling his fighters "kung fu fighters" competing at events to test themselves but is called a sellout because he doesn't go to rinky dink kung fu tournaments where the level of competition is below where his fighters fight at and still has to pay to play. THAT is what's wrong with TCMA !!!

It's the mindset that kung fu can and should only play with kung fu. Goes back to my thread on permission. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[MightyB]

We should be looking at ways to make San Shou / San Da competitions less "rinky-dink."

Seriously - local MMA tourneys draw big crowds, that's how they can pay for the fighters to fight - so what's their secret that we could apply to lei tia fighting? If you think about it, Lei-tai fighting should be more exciting to watch overall for the spectators because of it's striking and throwing focus.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To wit: the MMA fighter responds to a choke-hold by countering and attempting to gain the scoring advantage. The TCMA fighter responds to the choke-hold by gouging out the attacker's eyes with their thumbs.

If I may correct an erroneous view here:
The correct way of stating this would be that-
To wit: the MMA fighter responds to a choke-hold by countering with a technqiue that has been proven over and over to work against another skilled fighter. The TCMA fighter responds to the choke-hold by using something that he has NOT verified that works but was told should work, in theory.

[lkfmdc]

I find it funny that we have one guy calling his fighters "kung fu fighters" competing at events to test themselves but is called a sellout because he doesn't go to rinky dink kung fu tournaments where the level of competition is below where his fighters fight at and still has to pay to play. THAT is what's wrong with TCMA !!!

It's the mindset that kung fu can and should only play with kung fu. Goes back to my thread on permission. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Exactly


We should be looking at ways to make San Shou / San Da competitions less "rinky-dink."



In the 1990's I was saying to the US sanshou community that our events were poorly run, the people running them clueless and we were not being appreciated. For the most part the sanshou people all told me I was just being difficult and should be quiet

I hate to point this out, but I was right and not long afterwards those same organizers completely dumped us. :rolleyes:

Something about the CMA scene makes people passive sheep.

[MightyB]

In the 1990's I was saying to the US sanshou community that our events were poorly run, the people running them clueless and we were not being appreciated. For the most part the sanshou people all told me I was just being difficult and should be quiet

I hate to point this out, but I was right and not long afterwards those same organizers completely dumped us. :rolleyes:

Something about the CMA scene makes people passive sheep.

Maybe there's a way to dump the CMA scene and just have Chinese Rules Kickboxing events. Open them up to all-comers aka old school Toughman-style tourneys and promote the h3ll out of them on local radio and TV. That's pretty much how the Michigan MMA scene started and now it's pretty big and well organized with good fighters and teams.

[SPJ]

In order to save Kung Fu, the "modern Wushu" and "Taiji for health" must die.

they may co exist or co habitat.

fighting is about techniques and skills

but your health is every thing.

we have to be strong and healthy first

then kung fu practice.

[Frost]

As ross pointed out most guys on here that train MMA have backgrounds in TCMA, still use or train TCMA and are interested in it

AS for calling MK a sellout LMAO, what are we in the 18th century? the fact is a lot of the Chinese masters lost all rights to loyalty when they made fortunes out of exploiting students in their tournaments in the 80’s and 90’s on both sides of the Atlantic with scant regard to the students welfare, as Ross has pointed out time and time again. Not all tournemtns were like that I know, but enough of the major organisations were and to a large extent still are. MK and Ross should be applauded for looking after their fighters interests and ensuring they are fighting in well run competitions, that honouring TCMA not whinning about how unfair it all is and how they are sell outs.

On a side note wow taai gihk yahn finally blew up and told it like it is…so glad I was here to read it I knew he couldn’t stay nice and balanced for much longer!

[Mas Judt]

There are plenty of San Shou, Kuo Shu, San Da, etc etc tournaments around and I think we should be attending those. If you chose MMA over Kung Fu tourneys then you are really not supporting us.

ginosifu

I couldn't disagree more. What MK is doing is getting his Kung Fu seen and recognized by a much wider audience. Look at just about any Hong Kong movie - they revel in plot lines where the KF master fights the foreign devils in their own events.

TCMA should stand up and be counted. I know so many fantastic players. Step up.

You can still do pajama parties if you want (and there is nothing wrong with that), but I firmly believe something Manny Rodriguez said to me once: "If you are good, you will take any opportunity, any rules to fight."

[Mas Judt]

To summarize, when I was in his school decades ago, we fought and won in San Da, TKD, Judo, Shuai Chiao (No MMA yet) - every set of contact rules available. Why? Because we could.

Real kung fu should always have this attitude.

[lkfmdc]

Build a GOOD EVENT and people will come. When I was working with the USKBA (Paul Rosner RIP) we did an open international event and not only got all the sanshou people in the US but international teams, so you got a chance to compete against the BEST

We had insurance, medical staff, GOOD JUDGES AND REFS, fair rules

And you know what? You want to talk about "supporting kung fu"? LMFAO... the guys who are supposed to be in charge of kung fu in the US (ANTHONY GOH FOR EXAMPLE) tried to undermine our events.

[Ray Pina]

This not about the skill level of you or your fighters. I trust you honor your teacher(s) well. This is more about supporting kung fu because we are KUNG FU players.

Kung Fu is a style of fighting. MMA is a fighting venue. Kick Boxing is a fighting venue. San Da is a fighting venue.


I've competed in all those formats. Personally, I feel most free as a fighter in an MMA format. Won't fight in anything else but Vale Tudo.... which is my real favorite but illegal in too many places.:(

[Ray Pina]

Why not a Kung Fu only MMA event?

This magazine can host/promote it. Advertise it.

[Lucas]

Why not a Kung Fu only MMA event?

This magazine can host/promote it. Advertise it.

that's exactly what I suggested in my last post...i figure just make each fighter display a form or some other CMA related skillset before fights. Sure anyone can go learn a simple form even if they dont do CMA, but that's not the point. Even if you get a muaythai/bjj guy doing that, he is still fighting to promote Chinese arts, which is the point exactly. This is how you can get even non CMA guys into the fun. And you never know, for people who have never been involved in CMA, might have a diff perspective afterwards.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I don't think you're going to get straight MMAers faking Kung Fu to get a crack at people. Just have people list their style and background and let them fight.

Find out about prior experience and try to get some fair match ups.... the real issue would be San Da people would have a legit claim. And with their ring experience they'll literally wipe the floor with "traditional" Kung Fuers trying to make that jump overnight.

There's a lot to competitive fighting. Right down to diet, weight management, game plan.... if you don't understand it you can't compete.

MMA is there. Before MMA there were still circles for Vale Tudo. The issue is not venue. It's desire on TCMA's part.

[ginosifu]

I couldn't disagree more. What MK is doing is getting his Kung Fu seen and recognized by a much wider audience. Look at just about any Hong Kong movie - they revel in plot lines where the KF master fights the foreign devils in their own events.

TCMA should stand up and be counted. I know so many fantastic players. Step up.

You can still do pajama parties if you want (and there is nothing wrong with that), but I firmly believe something Manny Rodriguez said to me once: "If you are good, you will take any opportunity, any rules to fight."

I did step up. I did MMA (amateur bout here in Cleveland). I won. I agree fighting is fighting and we as TCMA should step up and let everyone see that kung fu can win in MMA style matches.

Over the years I have had several students that went into local MMA style matches. They wanted to do that, so I taught them and they did well.

If MMA is your gig and that's what you like to do... no problem. I would just like to see if TCMA can come together with their own Venue. Why do we need to fight cage style matches. Why can't we have our own style matches and arena?


Why not a Kung Fu only MMA event?

This magazine can host/promote it. Advertise it.

Sweet, I like the above idea

ginosifu

[Lucas]

the real issue would be San Da people would have a legit claim. And with their ring experience they'll literally wipe the floor with "traditional" Kung Fuers trying to make that jump overnight.

There's a lot to competitive fighting. Right down to diet, weight management, game plan.... if you don't understand it you can't compete.



it would good though, its a needed wake up call for a lot of people.

[JamesC]

that's exactly what I suggested in my last post...i figure just make each fighter display a form or some other CMA related skillset before fights. Sure anyone can go learn a simple form even if they dont do CMA, but that's not the point. Even if you get a muaythai/bjj guy doing that, he is still fighting to promote Chinese arts, which is the point exactly. This is how you can get even non CMA guys into the fun. And you never know, for people who have never been involved in CMA, might have a diff perspective afterwards.

What if it was a multiple score event like gymnastics or something? Person with the overall score wins?

Like:
1. Forms Comp
2. Weapons Forms
3. Standing Grappling
4. Ground Grappling
5. Standing Striking
6. Full-contact, NHB fight

Just sayin...

[Lucas]

What if it was a multiple score event like gymnastics or something? Person with the overall score wins?

Like:
1. Forms Comp
2. Weapons Forms
3. Standing Grappling
4. Ground Grappling
5. Standing Striking
6. Full-contact, NHB fight

Just sayin...

hey that sounds cool and sounds pretty kungfuish too!

[Ray Pina]

I did step up. I did MMA (amateur bout here in Cleveland). I won.

That is awesome. You and your students should be proud.

When/where was this venue? Was it sanctioned? Any chance that there's any footage?

Personally, I'm extremely interested in those that can apply their TCMA. I've always been a fan of Max and Tiffany Chan for that reason.

[ginosifu]

That is awesome. You and your students should be proud.

When/where was this venue? Was it sanctioned? Any chance that there's any footage?

Personally, I'm extremely interested in those that can apply their TCMA. I've always been a fan of Max and Tiffany Chan for that reason.

It was not sanctioned (not positive though). No video sorry. Just a small event here in the area. The reason I did well is because I had extensive San Shou and Shuai Chiao experince.

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

that's exactly what I suggested in my last post...i figure just make each fighter display a form or some other CMA related skillset before fights. Sure anyone can go learn a simple form even if they dont do CMA, but that's not the point. Even if you get a muaythai/bjj guy doing that, he is still fighting to promote Chinese arts, which is the point exactly. This is how you can get even non CMA guys into the fun. And you never know, for people who have never been involved in CMA, might have a diff perspective afterwards.

If getting up a doing a form is all the proof one needs of a true TCMA, there really is no hope for us:(

Let anyone who wants to fight, fight. Asking for this kind of proof is ridiculous, boxers don't do it, kickboxers don't do it, wrestlers don't do it, but to prove you are a Kung Fu guys you have to prance around like a f**ag on crack with silk pajamas. No thanks.;)

[lkfmdc]

If getting up a doing a form is all the proof one needs of a true TCMA, there really is no hope for us:(

Let anyone who wants to fight, fight. Asking for this kind of proof is ridiculous, boxers don't do it, kickboxers don't do it, wrestlers don't do it, but to prove you are a Kung Fu guys you have to prance around like a f**ag on crack with silk pajamas. No thanks.;)

From the outside looking in, the idea that you have to do a form before you can fight always looks like some lame way to keep fighters you are worried about out of your event so your students can do well

The Kuoshu federation used to be like this (they say not now, I don't know). Cung Le flew in one year to fight, they said he'd have to do a form, he said fine, then there was something "wrong" with the form he was going to do, so he basically flew in from CA to have a rubber chicken dinner and watch bad fights, they didnt' let him compete

[Lucas]

LOL!!! i hear you. i dont really truly agree with trying to seperate kungfu from other fighters for a mma event more of a kidding around idea i think, but if you really wanted to try to do that, how would you know people are kungfu fighters? not everyone has a super special lineage...or even verifiable.

[Lucas]

From the outside looking in, the idea that you have to do a form before you can fight always looks like some lame way to keep fighters you are worried about out of your event so your students can do well

The Kuoshu federation used to be like this (they say not now, I don't know). Cung Le flew in one year to fight, they said he'd have to do a form, he said fine, then there was something "wrong" with the form he was going to do, so he basically flew in from CA to have a rubber chicken dinner and watch bad fights, they didnt' let him compete

wtf they didnt let him fight cuz they didnt like his form...wow can we say scared little girls?

[Frost]

I would if I could but my wife spends all of my moniez.



On a side note: the moniez spending wife heard how I spanked the local reigning 155 pounder in a grappling match and said that I can fight MMA if I want to... I'm debating it - local promoter saw it too because he happened to be training with us scouting out the talent - he's being pretty buddy buddy right now. I'm getting a little old though. Maybe I will - don't know yet, to be honest I'm kind've scared about the striking. And before you jump my shiite - anybody who says they're not afraid of fighting's probably never been in one... at least one with a skilled opponent.

if your not sure about the striking and having doubts id suggest not doing it, MMA is not grappling and i speak as someone who has held my own grappling wise with some good (read UFC level) fighters and got spanked by them in MMA

[Dragonzbane76]

funny but people always associate MMA with grappling when it's just a part of it. I guess it's the traditionalist fear of it or something i don't know.

Anyways to add to what frost stated. If you look at the Aubu Dabi (spelling) you will see the upper level of grappling. Even UFC fighters get spanked at that event at times.

Again mma is not grappling. It's a plethora of stuff not just grappling.

[David Jamieson]

Grappling is a pretty big component in quite a lot of the fights.
It makes sense to get a sub or choke out and not have to face
a lot of striking.

Grappling uses different gings that most of the chinese martial arts are not used to practicing.

TKD, Karate, and myriad other asian martial arts do not really use grappling with regularity.
Except for those arts that are almost exclusively that (wrestling&throwing).
Pretty much all the Kung Fu styles or rather Chinese martial arts styles that I am aware of do have throws, grabs, locks etc, but it really depends on the school and the teacher where you are going to find it in an atmosphere of practical application.

As for the tournament scene in tkd, karate, kung fu etc, it depends on the event and who is organizing it. There are good events out there by the looks of things and it would be good to see more.

I personally think there is cronyism in anything where money is involved, that retards progress and competition.

I also think there are people, a lot of people out there who practice martial arts for their own well being and peace of mind.

You can get that in competitive fighting, and as Gene has said (or whoever:p ) "Find your peace in practice".

[lance]

is because we have to be. Ignoring people who train MMA won't make them go away and those are the techniques you better learn how to deal with using TCMA.

MightyB , okay I ' m just replying to your topic thread , no one bothered to create a forum for MMA , that ' s why . Because if they ' re were an MMA forum , then why are the MMA people on this forum ? And plus people who studied TCMA either did ' nt believe in the style they were training in , or were ' nt patient enough to see results , so they went straight into MMA . Because of all the criticism and negative comments towards TCMA in general . While there are very few people who talk positive about TCMA . Well , people like you and me all have a right to get into whatever combative arts we want to get into .

It ' s a free country so you pick whatever style you like , and go on from there , but if you ' re going to criticize a style because you think it ' s junk or useless then , make sure that the next style you decide to train hard in or practice to succeed in , you really succeed in it as long as you really train hard in it . Other wise you ' re doing something wrong . So you need to sit down and figure out what is it that ' s going wrong , that you ' re not succeeding in the martial arts you involved with now .

[lkfmdc]

people who studied TCMA either did ' nt believe in the style they were training in , or were ' nt patient enough to see results , so they went straight into MMA .



how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?

I always find this laughable as well. I love when the "fairies" say sh**it like, it takes ten years to get good and be able to use your TCMA, kickboxing and mma you can get good at in six months but you have to have patience for it. So, taking that into consideration, if it takes an mma guy six months to attain skills imagine what he will be like in ten years with constant study. Does the TCMA guy suddenly become the "deadly" after this decade of suckiness?:D

Sadly enough, the truth truly is stranger than fiction.:)

[lkfmdc]

Sadly enough, the truth truly is stranger than fiction.:)

the truth is DARK

A guy trains in some ubber deadly secret internal style that is supposed to be super best and after 6 months all he can do is breath out of his left nostril

His friend is in Jiu Jitsu and after 6 months is rolling and tapping people. He walks by and smacks mr kung fu in the back of the head and mr kung fu can't do a thing about it

So mr kung fu convinces himself that in 10 years he'll be a super bad arse and he'll be better than his friend

(He also convinces himself that after 10 years he'll be so super bad arse and cool, he'll eventually move out of mom's basement and kiss a girl)

[Mas Judt]

Every Kung Fu teacher I ever had promised me I'd be fighting in six months. And they did accomplish that. I'm always puzzled by this idea of taking ten years to have basic skills. My Shuai Chiao teacher would laugh at that stuff and say 'for movies.'

These days, I'm often retrofitting guys with a lot of combat sport - and I do put the brakes on - until the new ideas are burned in. But these guys are tough and skilled already, so I can afford to be all geeked on the weird skills. That's what they come to me for.

Dr. Wu used to always ay that we need to learn from boxing and Muay Thai - the teaching method. Historically, he would say, the Chinese were terrible teachers, always hiding too much instead of coaching.

I can't say as virtually every CMA I touched was pretty well taught and coached. But my guess is his statements are probably true.

[ginosifu]

how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?

In reality it should take 2-4 months or 3-6 months to get good at fighting. The basic techniques are easlity absorbed and skill levels can raise up quickly.

There are no SECRET TECHNIQUES", however there are more sophisticated moves that require a bit more study and practice time to develop properly.

I think we can agree that certain basic moves just work well, especially in the full contact arena. So why can't we, after our basics are honed well, move on to more sophisticated techniques and try to perfect those? Why should we stay stagnant with the same basic moves? Again I agree they work, but there is always something more to study and perfect.

I remember faxiapreta saying chin na / arm bar stuff does not work. However, I spoke with several bouncers who say they do work. If we look at the long term results, basics work best but we should never stay stagnant and work to improve our techniques.

ginsifu

[IronWeasel]

how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?



I went to college for four years.

My doctor went for nine years.

Does that make me better at biology because I studied less?

[Ray Pina]

And plus people who studied TCMA either did ' nt believe in the style they were training in , or were ' nt patient enough to see results , so they went straight into MMA .

I already had almost 15 years of Isshin-Ryu, had my black belt and was an assistant instructor with shelfs full of sparring trophies before I took my first Wing Chun class. After five years of Wing Chun/Hung Gar with one group while studying a modified S Mantis/sparring with another, I found my internal master. I studied with him for another 6 years or so.

I've competed at all levels, most recently low level pro MMA.

While not claiming to be an expert or a sifu, I think I'm more than qualified to comment. And there's a number of issues to comment about.

1: It should not take more than 7 years for a complete newbie to get a very strong handle on Wing Chun or any style for that matter. Already reach a high level in one style as a foundation, picking up the small details of another is a lot easier.

2: One needs patience when studying, that is true. But to what extent? I began free rolling in BJJ, my most recent area of intense study, on the first day. Was competing and winning beginner level tournaments within my first year. By my third year I was winning intermediate level tournaments. Now, year 5, I compete in open all weight and all belt divisions (see No. 3).

3: I was very happy studying with a very renowned internal master but there was always a part of me that was uneasy.... the part that spent 15 years sparring aggressively in karate. I was learning very useful techniques, which I still employ, however, my classmates, including seniors and disciples who lacked my fighting background, could emulate the movements but not employ them in real sparring... which they ducked under the guise that they were too powerful/dangerous (I wish I was joking)...... all during that time I was fighting out (see my first link in signature) and getting real experience with what I was learning. And again, I reached a point where I learned the basic functionings of the style and had to make a choice. Do I stay and continue and turn out like the seniors who are experts within their own group, having never gone out into the world to prove their style's practical advantages.... or step into a world where things are crystal clear. You train hard, you spar, you compete.... everything is verifiable. You still need patience. But while you are in your first or second year guys who are on their fifth or 10th are national champions. World champions.

The problem with TCMA is exactly what you're defending. Martial arts is simple: it's how to defeat someone with or without a weapon. You don't need form. You don't need a long ancient lineage. You don't need uniforms.... and you don't need a sifu or master's validation. I know exactly where I stand in relation to my training partners, coach and nearby practioners. I know this because I compete against them in free play three times a week. How can a TCMA in the True 2 Form format ever dream of touching me? I've spent too many hours backstage knowing I'm up to fight in front of a crowd. I've knocked too many people down and then punched their head in to finish them. And I've taken beatings just to survive three tough rounds without quitting... not pleasant stuff. But that's the reality. That's what many TCMAers don't understand. I'm a nice guy. But when it's time to face off you have to be able, willing and on some level get off on beating the fu(k out of someone...... TCMAers are not intimidating. That True 2 Form footage is a disgrace. You should all be embarrassed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I went to college for four years.

My doctor went for nine years.

Does that make me better at biology because I studied less?

Would you go to a med school that took 10 years to teach how to use a stethoscope?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Would you go to a med school that took 10 years to teach how to use a stethoscope?

Can I just say I am really beginning to hate analogies when it comes to martial arts. Comparing it to med school, swimming, hiking, butt fu** king, or dressing in drag is pretty silly. Not much compares to fighting except, well, fighting.:D

[JamesC]

Can I just say I am really beginning to hate analogies when it comes to martial arts. Comparing it to med school, swimming, hiking, butt fu** king, or dressing in drag is pretty silly. Not much compares to fighting except, well, fighting.:D

I dunno... I've found butt fu*king to be remarkably sim....err...nvm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can I just say I am really beginning to hate analogies when it comes to martial arts. Comparing it to med school, swimming, hiking, butt fu** king, or dressing in drag is pretty silly. Not much compares to fighting except, well, fighting.:D

That's just crazy talk !
That's like going to a circus to get relationship advice about how to deal with your pet rock.
:D

[ginosifu]

1: It should not take more than 7 years for a complete newbie to get a very strong handle on Wing Chun or any style for that matter. Already reach a high level in one style as a foundation, picking up the small details of another is a lot easier.

2: One needs patience when studying, that is true. But to what extent? I began free rolling in BJJ, my most recent area of intense study, on the first day. Was competing and winning beginner level tournaments within my first year. By my third year I was winning intermediate level tournaments. Now, year 5, I compete in open all weight and all belt divisions (see No. 3).

3: I was very happy studying with a very renowned internal master but there was always a part of me that was uneasy.... the part that spent 15 years sparring aggressively in karate. I was learning very useful techniques, which I still employ, however, my classmates, including seniors and disciples who lacked my fighting background, could emulate the movements but not employ them in real sparring... which they ducked under the guise that they were too powerful/dangerous (I wish I was joking)...... all during that time I was fighting out (see my first link in signature) and getting real experience with what I was learning. And again, I reached a point where I learned the basic functionings of the style and had to make a choice. Do I stay and continue and turn out like the seniors who are experts within their own group, having never gone out into the world to prove their style's practical advantages.... or step into a world where things are crystal clear. You train hard, you spar, you compete.... everything is verifiable. You still need patience. But while you are in your first or second year guys who are on their fifth or 10th are national champions. World champions.

The problem with TCMA is exactly what you're defending. Martial arts is simple: it's how to defeat someone with or without a weapon. You don't need form. You don't need a long ancient lineage. You don't need uniforms.... and you don't need a sifu or master's validation. I know exactly where I stand in relation to my training partners, coach and nearby practioners. I know this because I compete against them in free play three times a week. How can a TCMA in the True 2 Form format ever dream of touching me? I've spent too many hours backstage knowing I'm up to fight in front of a crowd. I've knocked too many people down and then punched their head in to finish them. And I've taken beatings just to survive three tough rounds without quitting... not pleasant stuff. But that's the reality. That's what many TCMAers don't understand. I'm a nice guy. But when it's time to face off you have to be able, willing and on some level get off on beating the fu(k out of someone...... TCMAers are not intimidating. That True 2 Form footage is a disgrace. You should all be embarrassed.

#1. It should not take 7 years to grasp the concepts of most any system. However, there are concepts that are more difficult for the newbie to conceive. I was fighting (Continuous Light Contact Sparring) in a tournament within the first month when I started learning kung fu. Shuai Chiao fighting within the first 2 or 3 months.

#2. But to what extent? How far should we go before we decide that we have learned it all? While learning SC my teacher showed me a throw.... I was learning the ins and outs of setting it up and such. After several months I started being able to do it well. After 6 months my teacher a different way to execute the same move (I may never have figured this out o my own). Down the road my teacher said try adding this and that while setting up your throw etc etc.

In the end, we can learn and perfect a move quite fast, but there may be more you can get from your teacher if you are patient. Basic stuff is easy and everyone should be able to do something right away, just don't stagnate and think there is nothing more you can get after you have got it down good.

#3. It is a shame but there are many TCMA schools that don't have clue about fighting. This not the students fault, it is more what the sifu Fed to them, and they ate it not knowing where he was taking them. We were always about fighting and I have been lucky for that.

But there is another side of TCMA that many modern fighters just do not understand. TCMA is and should be taught as a lifetime art form. Fighting for self defense, exercise for health and fitness, qi gong for health, tai chi for longevity. You should be able to practice kung fu into your goldern years. Some young guys are only concerned with fighting and actually burn themselves out cuz all they do is fight / train too hard. They are what is considered a shooting star... very bright and awesome, but they only last for a little while.

just my 2 cents

ginosifu

[Ray Pina]

I learned a lot from my internal master. Import things, beyond fighting, that I carry with me everyday. I would have loved to stay and learn sword and pole from him, two specialties that he was known for.

With that said, and this goes to the comment that instead of using analogies we stick to fighting...... for a martial art, Kung Fu does a suspiciously limited amount of fighting. It's incredibly hard for a fighter to be corrected, to have to kow tow to "seniors" when there's no opportunity to demonstrate exactly who is capable of what. Everything is taken on word? On stories of past performance?

There is no Kung Fu fighting going on that's worthy to discuss, never mind relate it to a conversation about martial arts. There's too much art and no martial.

Because this is an MMA vs TCMA discussion. I'll point out I have crazy respect for my team mates. It's not forced. These are people breaking their a$$ with me 3-5 nights a week. Competing with me. They've earned my respect.

We learn and train a basic throw in week 1. Week 2 we work transitions off of it. Week 3 we learn multiple set ups. Done. In one month we completely study a topic, in and out, and than have it to work with every night in free play. Of course we'll improve more with time. And of course, if you really like something you focus more time on it. Expand upon it.

It's nothing sacred that could be handed down if the teacher thinks you're worthy. It's basic information. It's the requirement. Not to transmit it or to have your team unable to perform the move means either you're incompetent as a coach or your students are incapable of learning.

In TCMA's case we have how many individual styles? Which ones would you honestly say are up to today's standard?

[Ray Pina]

I'll also add, and I'm sure some older board members remember, I was saying this 7 years ago when I was still training internal. Because we trained with boxing gloves and protective gear and I was wiping the floor with TCMA challengers.

This is not feedback from an MMAer. This is feedback from a lifetime martial artist. Whether I'm training internal in NY, BJJ in Puerto Rico, boxing... it's all martial art. It's all internally calming. It's all relaxed power. The principles are all the same.

It's nice like you transfer from UCLA to NYU and you're lost. Don't know what's going on.... you just continue your personal study.

[MightyB]

The weird thing is - the more I've embraced cross training and challenging myself with facing off against other styles, the better I think I get at traditional 7* praying mantis kung fu. I work out harder, sweat more, and do things that would be considered extremely un-TCMA as far as grappling is concerned - yet each of those sessions, techniques, and lessons only serves to increase my comprehension and ability to really apply mantis kung fu. At the clubs I participate in, mantis is respected because of my ability to apply it "live" with and against people with good records in competitive MMA.

[lance]

how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?

Ikfmdc , I don ' t know if you ever saw a video on youtube where this hung gar guy fights in the MMA , the competition was somewhere in this world . His opponent was alot bigger than him and stronger than him , but the hung gar guy was able to beat the big guy . The Hung Gar guy was from wing lam kung fu school .

Other than that if I was a TCMA practitioner I would train hard for 2 years then try out for those MMA competition . If I get beaten , then I would go back and train with those top MMA fighters until I can beat one of them . To me the day you survive a fight of any kind is the day you improve . They always said if you going talk then do it , otherwise it ' s useless to talk about it right ? It ' s not the method it ' s the man that makes the art , because if a man ' s skill is lousy , then he ' ll not survive any confrontation , but if the man evaluates his own skill and finds where he went wrong then , he can fix it , and progress from there . This man did it he was born in 1940 , and was the worlds greatest martial artist . But his name is very controversial so I won ' t mention his name instead , but he was the guy who really started MMA anyway .

And maybe TCMA practitioners feel that even though they were very , very good why would they want to prove something , when they really don ' t need to , like competing in a MMA competition . That ' s the mentality of the chinese martial arts in general .

Even in the MMA too , I had some favorite fighters too , but they ' ve been losing now days , and maybe they ' re only collecting the paycheck , but disregarded their MMA skill . And if no one has started a MMA forum , then what are you people waiting for go and started it on your own . They were already people who really supported TCMA with this forum anyway , so I got no complains . But some of you people complain that there no MMA forum , then you people who like MMA alot get together and start one , instead of complaining .

[YouKnowWho]

how long should a person wait until they can see an actual skill in TCMA?
6 months?
A year?
Two years?
Five Years?

It has been said before, how is a method "superior" if it takes two to three times LONGER to get the same result the so called "inferior" method gets?

Sometime the LONGER path is the only way. Some skill will require "special force" that we did not born with, and also we never have chance to develop it in our daily life. In order to develop that "special force", we have to start from ground zero. The nice thing about the LONGER path is after you have obtained that ability, it's much easier to maintain it for the rest of your life. 5 years may sound like a long time. But time will fly by no matter you train or not. It's better to obtain some skill at the end of 5 years than nothing at all. Even today, I still don't see any "inferior" training method that can help me to obtain the same skill in any part of this world yet.

Sometime the "inferior" method just don't exist. That's why

Gong Fu = time + pain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets not confuse what is being said here guys.
There is a difference between perfecting one's art and being able to use it to say one's bacon.
Many times we see clips of guys with 2-3 years in a TCMA and they get beat by someone with even less time in another art.
The answer comes that he didn't knwo his art well enough, which begs the question of how long does one need to KNOW his art well enough to fight with it.
That is hat is being discussed at this point.
If system A routinly produces people that, in 1 year can fight effectively with their art and system B needs 3 years, then system A is quite simply superiour in terms of training fighters.

[ginosifu]

Lets not confuse what is being said here guys.
There is a difference between perfecting one's art and being able to use it to say one's bacon.
Many times we see clips of guys with 2-3 years in a TCMA and they get beat by someone with even less time in another art.
The answer comes that he didn't knwo his art well enough, which begs the question of how long does one need to KNOW his art well enough to fight with it.
That is hat is being discussed at this point.
If system A routinly produces people that, in 1 year can fight effectively with their art and system B needs 3 years, then system A is quite simply superiour in terms of training fighters.

Sadly the above is true. Too many that do not have a clue how to fight. However, there are still some peeps out that teach Fighting as a major part of their curriculum.

One of the downfalls of TCMA is the different aspects that you can explore, like the "FORM". So many modern people like doing "Only Forms", and then they think that these "FORMS" magically transform them into kung fu fighting monks.

There are also Kung Fu charletans who have only learned a few forms and now proclaim themselves as "SIFU". They teach in their community and now spread this disease even further.

One point I would like to make is: Just because there is a few kung fu people that do not know how to fight, does not neccessarily mean the rest of kung fu does not know how to fight.

ginosifu

[Taixuquan99]

Once, I was really interested in martial arts.

I took a little tkd from a Korean guy at the YMCA, maybe two months. I enjoyed it, and even after I stopped taking it during the school ear, I kept doing the kicks religiously.

I was really interested in martial arts.

Then, a couple years later, a friend wanted to join a martial arts school, and he and I went to one local place, a sort of psuedo tkd psuedo moonies place. The kicks were similar enough, and one could train hard there, in the sense of training to exhaustion, I stayed for some time as what Ross calls a training bum.

A few years later I was really interested in that art. Screw those other arts.

After watching more martial arts, and playing a lot of push hands with friends, I realized that there were serious limitations in my chosen style. I moved on, and studied longfist. he classes were good, the teacher was probably one of the most reasonable people I've met. I enjoyed it.

I was really interested in kung fu. I could train longfist, maybe move on to pakua, etc. But a Japanese or Korean style? No way! Wrestling? You mus be joking.

Then I moved, and learned the system that I know best. When I became proficient enough, I tailored my training to involve other stylists as often as possible. When it comes to kung fu, in most cases, when another stylist does something that works on me, it's not something I haven't seen before, from my own style, nor is the defense something that I need to learn that other style to acheive. I still like the styles, and wouldn't mind messing around more with certain weapons, but collecting more open hand kung fu styles seems like a misuse of my trining time, when I know that codified ground systems are important as well, and weapons, Chinese and otherwise, are also important to me.

So I'm back to really interested in martial arts, which is more me anyway. Narrowing that focus was a taught thing, from my first BAD school, and it took some time to unlearn it. It seems like it occurs in both TMA and MMA, this teaching the students not to keep an open eye, useless pride, and it seems counter to the central ideology of both, imo.

[Ray Pina]

The reason I did well is because I had extensive San Shou and Shuai Chiao experince.

ginosifu

Losing a couple San Da matches was a wake up call for me. I was impressed by the versatility.

[bawang]

my love for kung fu always is greater than my personal motives and views, so i have no problem with having an open mind.


i dont use kung fu as a crutch for my life. except for getting the white wimens.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

my love for kung fu always is greater than my personal motives and views, so i have no problem with having an open mind.


i dont use kung fu as a crutch for my life. except for getting the white wimens.

Yours most be "teh realz", I have trained Kung Fu for nearly 20 years, am white, and still can't get the white wimensz!!:D

[Taixuquan99]

Yours most be "teh realz", I have trained Kung Fu for nearly 20 years, am white, and still can't get the white wimensz!!:D

Training kung fu is like getting the white wimensz.

[Lebaufist]

Many times we see clips of guys with 2-3 years in a TCMA and they get beat by someone with even less time in another art.

The answer comes that he didn't know his art well enough,

This is always the biggest BS excuse on the list. That is definitely the teacher's fault. The prime mean between them is fighting practice. Actually hitting and getting hit. Does it actually take three years just to use your basic techniques? It shouldn't.

I mean really... How long does it take to learn a handful of punches and kicks?

[ginosifu]

i dont use kung fu as a crutch for my life. except for getting the white wimens.

I use my kung fu skills to get me teh Asian Wimens. and I am teh ugliest white guy there is.

ginosifu

[Taixuquan99]

I mean really... How long does it take to learn a handful of punches and kicks?

I offer a twelve year contract based around the Chinese zodiac, so you know it's authentic.

If, after twelve years, you don't know how to punch or kick, you may challenge me to a gong sau lei tai light contact chi sao deathmatch: if you win, you write a testimonial explaining how my twelve year contract helped your self defense, if you lose, I deny I ever taught you. This is traditional stuff, the real deal.

FAQ

Q:"What about gangsters, legitimate lines of kung fu have gangsters, does yours?"

A: Am I extorting you? Next!

Q: "Is your training gonna make me better than other training?"

A: This training will go one better. It will make you feel like its better than any other training, even unrelated training. You study my kung fu, and you will not only have nothing but derision of wrestling and boxing, but weight lifting, running, chin ups and crocheting as well.

Q: "Can I Still secretly dislike obese people?"

A: Yes. This will feed you passive aggresiveness, which is the core of our qigong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I offer a twelve year contract based around the Chinese zodiac, so you know it's authentic.

If, after twelve years, you don't know how to punch or kick, you may challenge me to a gong sau lei tai light contact chi sao deathmatch: if you win, you write a testimonial explaining how my twelve year contract helped your self defense, if you lose, I deny I ever taught you. This is traditional stuff, the real deal.

FAQ

Q:"What about gangsters, legitimate lines of kung fu have gangsters, does yours?"

A: Am I extorting you? Next!

Q: "Is your training gonna make me better than other training?"

A: This training will go one better. It will make you feel like its better than any other training, even unrelated training. You study my kung fu, and you will not only have nothing but derision of wrestling and boxing, but weight lifting, running, chin ups and crocheting as well.

Q: "Can I Still secretly dislike obese people?"

A: Yes. This will feed you passive aggresiveness, which is the core of our qigong.

*wipes tear from eye*
That was beautiful...
*sniff*

[Taixuquan99]

*wipes tear from eye*
That was beautiful...
*sniff*

I dedicate it to David Carradine.

[Eric Olson]

The whole TCA vs. MMA debate kind of reminds me of the debate over modern medicine vs. folk medicine.

Both MMA and modern medicine are more scientific. They test things under conditions that approximate reality and then see what works and what doesn't. A lot of hokey things in folk medicine have been ruled out, just as a lot of things in TMA have been ruled out using a more scientific approach.

The problem is when we start throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are treatments in folk medicine that work as or more effectively than there modern "scientific" counterparts.

Some of these were initially ruled out as hocus pocus only later to be shown just as effective. Remember some of these practices, whether you are talking about martial arts or medicine have been around for thousands of years. Even if the theory that explains them is incorrect it doesn't automatically mean they don't work.

I think the same process is going on with TCMA and MMA. We need to be scientific, this is the highest level of human thought and a welcome change from ridiculous claims and hocus pocus. But we should be careful not to so readily dismiss everything as we may overlook some important nuggets of knowledge. And plus, why reinvent the wheel?

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dedicate it to David Carradine.

He must be all choked up about it.





What? too soon?

[Taixuquan99]

I'm gonna make the first major biopic on David Carradine, and cast a Chinese guy to play him.

It'll be called Circle of Irony.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm gonna make the first major biopic on David Carradine, and cast a Chinese guy to play him.

It'll be called Circle of Irony.

That would indeed be ironic.

[Taixuquan99]

That would indeed be ironic.

Some people might think it's knot.






What?

[Dragonzbane76]

That would indeed be ironic.

or just plain poetic. :p

[Faruq]

Cuz MMA works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyLalv4Qkyk&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVW_x5H97BQ&feature=related

It's more realistic, and prepares you better for the street.

[Lebaufist]

Quick!, somebody repost that video with Benny Hill music.

[Faruq]

for all the praise and supposed love for kung fu, most american kung fu guys cant speak a word of chinese.


but they can name all them fancy japanese judo karate terms. hizo shizo. nagi saki. waka faka.

This is soooooo true. I know one or two guys here can say they speak Chinese, and a few more know the terms (though are probably slaughtering the tones, and thusly saying something totally different than the kung fu terms they think they are naming); but by and large if you surveyed American kung fu guys, or better yet tested them, less than 10% would pass a Chinese language test. Shifu Bawang speaks the truth again!

[Faruq]

Quick!, somebody repost that video with Benny Hill music.

Bro, I think that's Jeet Kune Do. It looks different to people who haven't studied it before.

[Ray Pina]

This is soooooo true. I know one or two guys here can say they speak Chinese, and a few more know the terms (though are probably slaughtering the tones, and thusly saying something totally different than the kung fu terms they think they are naming); but by and large if you surveyed American kung fu guys, or better yet tested them, less than 10% would pass a Chinese language test. Shifu Bawang speaks the truth again!


I only knew the names of my Japanese forms and how to count to 10... I was still breaking wood boards at 10 years old and bricks at 14.

I only know a handful of Chinese phrases, though when I trained internal I was one of only 3 or 4 caucasians in the class. I personally think I was the best fighter in the group and was willing to compare to prove it... I rank myself pretty high on the Kung Fu food chain. And again, am willing to compare to prove it.

Teddy Riner, a Frenchman, holds the most Judo world championships (6). A Thai is not in the top 20 world rankings for the WBC Muay Thai internationals.

Keep the Chinese fashion and language skill tests. Others are developing applicable martial skill.

[Taixuquan99]

I only knew the names of my Japanese forms and how to count to 10... I was still breaking wood boards at 10 years old and bricks at 14.

I only know a handful of Chinese phrases, though when I trained internal I was one of only 3 or 4 caucasians in the class. I personally think I was the best fighter in the group and was willing to compare to prove it... I rank myself pretty high on the Kung Fu food chain. And again, am willing to compare to prove it.

Teddy Riner, a Frenchman, holds the most Judo world championships (6). A Thai is not in the top 20 world rankings for the WBC Muay Thai internationals.

Keep the Chinese fashion and language skill tests. Others are developing applicable martial skill.

There is a disadvantage to not being able to read 90% of the source material on a subject, there's simply no getting around it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a disadvantage to not being able to read 90% of the source material on a subject, there's simply no getting around it.

Only if you learn by NOT doing.
Sure it can help, but nothing beats personal experience for personal development.

[Pork Chop]

A Thai is not in the top 20 world rankings for the WBC Muay Thai internationals.


what?!?
http://www.wbcmuaythai.com/ratting.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Boxing_Council_Muaythai
unless you mean a particular weight class; the thais have champs both on the "world" level and "international" level.

[Taixuquan99]

Only if you learn by NOT doing.


Not true. If you are studying taiji, and you cannot read the source material, Bawang will repeatedly point out that the common paradigm NOW of some move is not the move as it was used in another era, and is likely a modern misinterpretation. Doing won't tell you the right way consistently, and is way less efficient than seeking informed sources.

If you do stance work the way many do it now, which is wushu influenced even in many traditional schools, and cannot read the source materials that demonstrate that martially most schools used a different approach, and that approach has an advantage martially over the modern wushu approach, then doing is not going to replace knowing.

I've known plenty of people who can use crap to fight, but none who couldn't be better by knowing something better, and, in kung fu, the books available to non-Chinese speakers simply do not compare in most cases to what's available to Chinese speakers.

If I want to study Shuai Jiao or san shou, there is much more material in Chinese, especially for the former, than you can ever find in English. I have a book of Chen style apps, step by step, from the first road, in Chinese. There is NO SUCH BOOK in English.

To learn judo, one tends to, even if they don't know it, be learning the contributions of many judo people over the years, and their teachers are probably familiar with whose contributions many of those are, and likely own their books.

To not recognize the difficulty of doing the same to some degree in kung fu without being able to read Chinese sources, is hiding one's head in the sand. It is assuming that the knowledge of kung fu is entirely from one's kung fu teachers' heads, and that's not a reliable method. Clearly, the Chinese kung fu teachers of the past and present put out the info, to not see any advantage in it's use is a hard argument to justify, imo.

A kung fu teacher who doesn't speak Chinese can be good, they can be a great fighter using what they do know, but there is no argument that they couldn't be better if they had more info at their disposal, and people who can read Chinese have more info at their disposal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not true. If you are studying taiji, and you cannot read the source material, Bawang will repeatedly point out that the common paradigm NOW of some move is not the move as it was used in another era, and is likely a modern misinterpretation. Doing won't tell you the right way consistently, and is way less efficient than seeking informed sources.

If you do stance work the way many do it now, which is wushu influenced even in many traditional schools, and cannot read the source materials that demonstrate that martially most schools used a different approach, and that approach has an advantage martially over the modern wushu approach, then doing is not going to replace knowing.

I've known plenty of people who can use crap to fight, but none who couldn't be better by knowing something better, and, in kung fu, the books available to non-Chinese speakers simply do not compare in most cases to what's available to Chinese speakers.

If I want to study Shuai Jiao or san shou, there is much more material in Chinese, especially for the former, than you can ever find in English. I have a book of Chen style apps, step by step, from the first road, in Chinese. There is NO SUCH BOOK in English.

To learn judo, one tends to, even if they don't know it, be learning the contributions of many judo people over the years, and their teachers are probably familiar with whose contributions many of those are, and likely own their books.

To not recognize the difficulty of doing the same to some degree in kung fu without being able to read Chinese sources, is hiding one's head in the sand. It is assuming that the knowledge of kung fu is entirely from one's kung fu teachers' heads, and that's not a reliable method. Clearly, the Chinese kung fu teachers of the past and present put out the info, to not see any advantage in it's use is a hard argument to justify, imo.

A kung fu teacher who doesn't speak Chinese can be good, they can be a great fighter using what they do know, but there is no argument that they couldn't be better if they had more info at their disposal, and people who can read Chinese have more info at their disposal.

Not sure how much I agree with that Bro.
I have read MANY books and while I have never read them in Japanese or Korean or chinese ( the respect systems I have trained in), I have read some VERY, VERY through books and, looking back now, nothing was in those books that experience didn't teach me, eventually and teach me better.

[Taixuquan99]

In short, at some level, someone in every line of everyone's GOOD training in any art included a lot of source material on the subject, even if you didn't read it.

To argue that its absence is a virtue is groundless. Both knowledge and practical usage are required, the loss of either is bad.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In short, at some level, someone in every line of everyone's GOOD training in any art included a lot of source material on the subject, even if you didn't read it.

To argue that its absence is a virtue is groundless. Both knowledge and practical usage are required, the loss of either is bad.

I can see your point in that regard.

[Faruq]

I only knew the names of my Japanese forms and how to count to 10... I was still breaking wood boards at 10 years old and bricks at 14.

Keep the Chinese fashion and language skill tests. Others are developing applicable martial skill.

I can't counter your argument, Ray. Knowing Chinese has no bearing on whether you can fight or not.

So I'm gonna leave the martial arts ability point, which I don't know if Bawang or I was even making in the first place. But from a cultural viewpoint, it's odd that all these people who claim they love kung fu won't take the time to learn the language of the culture that spawned it. It's just an irony; not that it means anything as you have already pointed out. But then again, Americans are at a disadvantage when it comes to learning foreign languages. We generally can't do it unless we live in the country for a couple of years (and please Chinese speaking guai lo's, I'm just saying for the most part, not in every case). Hence the old joke:

"What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?
-Trilingual.
-What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?
-Bilingual.
-What do you call someone who speaks 1 language?
-American...."

[MightyB]

There is a disadvantage to not being able to read 90% of the source material on a subject, there's simply no getting around it.

She couldn't read the scrolls.

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/quiz/58329_1220728769618_220_125.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

she couldn't read the scrolls.

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/quiz/58329_1220728769618_220_125.jpg

bbwwaahhhh !!!

[Taixuquan99]

Not sure how much I agree with that Bro.
I have read MANY books and while I have never read them in Japanese or Korean or chinese ( the respect systems I have trained in), I have read some VERY, VERY through books and, looking back now, nothing was in those books that experience didn't teach me, eventually and teach me better.

You learned from knowledgeable people.

You read books on judo(which has far superior books in English than kung fu does, where, for years, the only comprehensive books were in Chinese).

Your experience is predicated in contact with people with knowledge, who also likely read source material and were exposed, in and out of contact experiences, to other interpretations.

Having been exposed to ideas and then experiencing them is a merit.

Further, we are discussing training in specific disiplines, and again, someone in the process must have awareness of the discipline by means of knowledge. You do not get rank in judo or karate for simply fighting, there is a knowledge component, and there is a body of knowledge that experts in those fields use time and again to further their knowledge, including books and randori and sparring and video.

I know of kung fu teachers and karate teachers who fight well, but who do not know **** all about the styles they teach. Contact alone has not connected them to the body of knowledge their style is built around, they do a form, then they fight using completely different things. Even when examining those things and the most similar things in the form they may do, they do not display awareness, and often see moves that historically had concrete apps as one size fits all general motions.

They also have almost no source material other than MAYBE a bunch of books that have forms they know and four or five "applications", which is par for the course in English kung fu "manuals". This isn't a "manual", this is not "contact informing the fighting", it is a good fighter who does a form and doesn't realize that their interpretation of it has ZERO to do with reality, even in their fighting.

I don't care how much contact I do, I will not, without exposure to the concepts of judo, become, in any efficient manner, a highly qualified judoka without exposure to the body of knowledge that is judo.

[Taixuquan99]

I can see your point in that regard.

I wish I had seen this post before I typed the above epic.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wish I had seen this post before I typed the above epic.:D

The valid points you make were worth it.


BUT it does almost seem to hint that unless one can read or speak CHinese, he wil never have the "real" TCMA.

[bawang]

Not sure how much I agree with that Bro.
I have read MANY books and while I have never read them in Japanese or Korean or chinese ( the respect systems I have trained in), I have read some VERY, VERY through books and, looking back now, nothing was in those books that experience didn't teach me, eventually and teach me better.

language barrier is a tool to control non chinese students. especially in souther kung fu since the forms are so esoteric.

[Taixuquan99]

The valid points you make were worth it.


BUT it does almost seem to hint that unless one can read or speak CHinese, he wil never have the "real" TCMA.

I don't believe that. I think if one does what they know with practices to entrain it, they will have kung fu. There's plenty of historical figures who were known not for overall skills, but something particular that worked for them. I'm fine with this.

What I am saying is that if you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, and there is no getting around it.

On the flip side, if a concept of face is applied in all contexts, even training ones, so that losing is not an option in a path in which losing is unavoidable, then one cannot train properly against challenging folk.

If I cannot read 80% of the source material, and I can train it, I can beat someone who can read 100%, but cannot train it because of face.

We're both not what we could be, so why should I be overly proud? My goal was never pride, I just like martial arts. I want to be better and more knowledgable, and I cannot do this and pretend to know everything because I can beat X.

[sanjuro_ronin]

language barrier is a tool to control non chinese students. especially in souther kung fu since the forms are so esoteric.

How is that working out ?

[bawang]

what do u mean man

dont be oversensitive and spazz out like david ross, we are buddies

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't believe that. I think if one does what they know with practices to entrain it, they will have kung fu. There's plenty of historical figures who were known not for overall skills, but something particular that worked for them. I'm fine with this.

What I am saying is that if you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, and there is no getting around it.

On the flip side, if a concept of face is applied in all contexts, even training ones, so that losing is not an option in a path in which losing is unavoidable, then one cannot train properly against challenging folk.

If I cannot read 80% of the source material, and I can train it, I can beat someone who can read 100%, but cannot train it because of face.

We're both not what we could be, so why should I be overly proud? My goal was never pride, I just like martial arts. I want to be better and more knowledgable, and I cannot do this and pretend to know everything because I can beat X.

Oh I don't have any delusions of how much of a ******* I am in my kung fu "lineage" and I couldn't care less.
I will never be a lineage holder in either Hung Kuen or SPM and I couldn't care less.
To me MA is and always will be a very personal journey.
Even when I competed I never did it to win or be ranked, but to test MYSELF for MYSELF.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what do u mean man

dont be oversensitive and spazz out like david ross, we are buddies

LOL !
I mean how is that way of doing things working out for TCMA?

[bawang]

Oh I don't have any delusions of how much of a ******* I am in my kung fu "lineage" and I couldn't care less.
I will never be a lineage holder in either Hung Kuen or SPM and I couldn't care less.
To me MA is and always will be a very personal journey.
Even when I competed I never did it to win or be ranked, but to test MYSELF for MYSELF.

i am founder of wombat combat, i answer to no one except my battle cattle.

LOL !
I mean how is that way of doing things working out for TCMA?

well, kung fu guys are still arguing how to defend single leg takedown, so not so good.

[Taixuquan99]

Oh I don't have any delusions of how much of a ******* I am in my kung fu "lineage" and I couldn't care less.
I will never be a lineage holder in either Hung Kuen or SPM and I couldn't care less.
To me MA is and always will be a very personal journey.
Even when I competed I never did it to win or be ranked, but to test MYSELF for MYSELF.

I know, I'm just enjoying the topic.

I'm not elitist. If the kung fu of a guy's one kick is really good, I'm checking it out, in a totally "I'm married" way.:D

AND I'll steal it. On the DL.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know, I'm just enjoying the topic.

I'm not elitist. If the kung fu of a guy's one kick is really good, I'm checking it out, in a totally "I'm married" way.:D

AND I'll steal it. On the DL.

Birds of a feather my brother :)

[Taixuquan99]

LOL !
I mean how is that way of doing things working out for TCMA?

It's working perfectly. The form's faeries were lulled into a sense of complacency, and then their local tourneys dried up. Soon, they will be buying Bawang's opium to kill the pain.

[MightyB]

I don't believe that. I think if one does what they know with practices to entrain it, they will have kung fu. There's plenty of historical figures who were known not for overall skills, but something particular that worked for them. I'm fine with this.

What I am saying is that if you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, you are studying a field in which you cannot understand 90% of the source material, and there is no getting around it.

On the flip side, if a concept of face is applied in all contexts, even training ones, so that losing is not an option in a path in which losing is unavoidable, then one cannot train properly against challenging folk.

If I cannot read 80% of the source material, and I can train it, I can beat someone who can read 100%, but cannot train it because of face.

We're both not what we could be, so why should I be overly proud? My goal was never pride, I just like martial arts. I want to be better and more knowledgable, and I cannot do this and pretend to know everything because I can beat X.

What about the fact that there was a huge illiteracy problem in the martial community in China? That's why most traditions were oral traditions and poems. And then you have, at least with the old styles, hidden meaning within the words... "code" so to speak so that if you weren't indoctrinated in the style - reading a scroll or overhearing a poem would be meaningless.

[bawang]

What about the fact that there was a huge illiteracy problem in the martial community in China? That's why most traditions were oral traditions and poems. And then you have, at least with the old styles, hidden meaning within the words... "code" so to speak so that if you weren't indoctrinated in the style - reading a scroll or overhearing a poem would be meaningless.

texts are just written down oral teachings. and they are detailed enough to give clues about code words.


for example, in yang style tai chi "needle in the sea" is a really ambiguous technique. lots of teachers show some weird wrist qin na.

in the yang family manual it says "needle stabs". two words cleared up all the confusion about it.

[MightyB]

texts are just written down oral teachings. and they are detailed enough to give clues about code words.

kind've, but then again I'll read the literal translations of forms that I know and I'll be like "What the f**k crack are you on cracker?" and then I'm "oh yeah, my Sifu did tell me that literal translations without contextual meaning are worthless and misleading at best. Skill is passed from master to student" - always been that way, always will be.

[Taixuquan99]

What about the fact that there was a huge illiteracy problem in the martial community in China? That's why most traditions were oral traditions and poems. And then you have, at least with the old styles, hidden meaning within the words... "code" so to speak so that if you weren't indoctrinated in the style - reading a scroll or overhearing a poem would be meaningless.

Picture manuals nswer the literacy thing, and there's plenty of those, and they certainly suggest that the moves are techniques, not general motions.

As for codes, literary codes require literary knowledge, so it still leaves you dependent on scholarly knowledge of the styles.

These things might make it more difficult, but they are specific cases, and they still do not make it irrelevant if you cannot read most of the source material for the subject you study.

Buddhism entered China, but it took time for the major works to get translated.

Kung fu is the same in entering the U.S. A lot of translation of the Taiji classics and some others, but many texts still unpublished, and huge numbers of modern ones only available in perfectly uncoded Chinese.

That's a trick, Chinese is automatically a code.

[MightyB]

texts are just written down oral teachings. and they are detailed enough to give clues about code words.


for example, in yang style tai chi "needle in the sea" is a really ambiguous technique. lots of teachers show some weird wrist qin na.

in the yang family manual it says "needle stabs". two words cleared up all the confusion about it.

Right right - I'm getting yeah... but then again "needle stabs" is pretty meaningless to me since I'm not familiar with Yang Tai Chi.

[MightyB]

Picture manuals nswer the literacy thing, and there's plenty of those, and they certainly suggest that the moves are techniques, not general motions.


But then you get...
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/quiz/58329_1220728769618_220_125.jpg

[Taixuquan99]

Bawang's post dissappeared! Into the sea!!!

David Jamiethon has banned him!

[bawang]

i delte because i understand learnig another language or culture can be a colmplete turn off for some people, who are only interested in the superficial aspects.

[Taixuquan99]

i delte because i understand learnig another language or culture can be a colmplete turn off for some people, who are only interested in the superficial aspects.

I found the comment interesting, concerning the meaning of sea in the usage. Thanks for posting it and then deleting it, I have secret wombat combat training that others don't know.

[MightyB]

i delte because i understand learnig another language or culture can be a colmplete turn off for some people, who are only interested in the superficial aspects.

No arguments there...

My country's arrogance towards foreign languages is shameful. It only hurts us... I mean, how can I get the good hookers in Tijuana if I don't know how to ask for them? I don't want no donkey f***ing *****.

[bawang]

me no speaky. me from wisconsin.



That's a trick, Chinese is automatically a code.

in the qing era a rifle was called a black donkey. killing someone was called put on a song. its extremely complicated but was out of neccesity. criminal gangs today also use lots of codes

[Taixuquan99]

I am American, so I will take my secret Wombat Combat knowledge, marry it to kempo, and call it Wompo. I will then style myself after a combination of Doo Wai and Erle Montague.

[wenshu]

well, kung fu guys are still arguing how to defend single leg takedown, so not so good.

I thought a consensus had been reached; put a bow on your leg and then offer it to your opponent as a gift of respect and humility (crane stance). Optional: a card that says "please to slam me onto my back so hard that it hurts to breathe for three weeks".

[Pork Chop]

LOL !
I mean how is that way of doing things working out for TCMA?

well, kung fu guys are still arguing how to defend single leg takedown, so not so good.

this made me LOL

[Brule]

me no speaky. me from wisconsin.


in the qing era a rifle was called a black donkey. killing someone was called put on a song. its extremely complicated but was out of neccesity. criminal gangs today also use lots of codes

Dude, anyway you can head over to the southern forum and shed some light on this tired old argument these guys seem to have every few months on CLF history.

[doug maverick]

yet another tcma/mma thread...

[bawang]

i think mma pretty cool guy. they lift weights and not afraid anything.

[David Jamieson]

I am American, so I will take my secret Wombat Combat knowledge, marry it to kempo, and call it Wompo. I will then style myself after a combination of Doo Wai and Erle Montague.

so..wompodootague then?

[Taixuquan99]

so..wompodootague then?

Exactly, and all the moves and videos on the topic will be in tagalog.

[Dragonzbane76]

wompodootague

took you guys that many post to come up with that name... the creative process mystified me on that one. :p

[Faruq]

These guys seem to be merging both:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU4NDY5MzYw.html&usg=ALkJrhiJ-MpeoI7kudyobZqzvY8CRxtIjA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI3NDUwMTcy.html&usg=ALkJrhiN5L6haZaU_RsYVC0qMz5V0aht6Q

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI3NzczNjQw.html&usg=ALkJrhjgUOsdh-5H2Yu0Cp5QDMx0v8h_SA

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjI3Nzc2MDc2.html&usg=ALkJrhjbA64Cg2YIWmDwx3ZIMy3DOlp1SQ

[Ray Pina]

There is a disadvantage to not being able to read 90% of the source material on a subject, there's simply no getting around it.

Reading?

My source material was my master: His master, Wong Song Fei, learned from Gong Bo Tien, who learned from Dong Ha Chuan. My master was 4th generation. Trained privately with his master for 10 years.

[Ray Pina]

Not true. If you are studying taiji, and you cannot read the source material, Bawang will repeatedly point out that the common paradigm NOW of some move is not the move as it was used in another era, and is likely a modern misinterpretation. Doing won't tell you the right way consistently.

Using your art in combat tells you.

Maybe this is the problem. Too many people reading and gaining a "book education."

[SimonM]

One thing I've learned with great pain Ray, is that there is nothing wrong with book education or with practical education. Ideally they should be used to support each other. Each, without the other, is weaker.

Not just talking MA here, I'm talking about life in general, but it applies to martial arts.

[Ray Pina]

But from a cultural viewpoint, it's odd that all these people who claim they love kung fu won't take the time to learn the language of the culture that spawned it. I"

On some level you have a point. Most of these people obviously aren't learning to kick a$$, so the language blends in with all the other exteriors: the clothes, the fake weapons, etc.

As a BJJ player, there's so much to learn and train and there's only so much time in the day. I'd rather spend it rolling than learning Portuguese.

Yes, if I spoke Portuguese I'd get some brownie points with the Brazilians. Because I can hold my own I get respect when I step on a mat in New York, Rio, Shanghai, etc.

[Ray Pina]

One thing I've learned with great pain Ray, is that there is nothing wrong with book education or with practical education. Ideally they should be used to support each other. Each, without the other, is weaker.

Not just talking MA here, I'm talking about life in general, but it applies to martial arts.


I love to read. I am a writer by profession.

Tsun Zu. Book of five rings.... most of everything else, especially Bruce Lee's small picture books, are garbage.

You don't learn martial arts by books. True, once you have a good understanding, a book can bring about a new idea. One word from a master can expand your understanding.... but I'm learning BJJ in a Spanish-speaking country.


I do the drills. I watch the example. I train it. If I have a question the coach comes over and SHOWS me again, with detail and a little explanation.

I honestly feel one would learn more YouTube-ing techniques than going through a book.

And with that said, there's no shortage of competent kids who have YouTubed BJJ and have some fundamental movements. Their skill level is shallow and is revealed on the matt. They may know submissions, but don't get the opportunity because thy lack escapes and a real understand of positions.

There's no short cut. And you can't go from talking about fighting skill and having it revealed that TCMA has no legit claim to that and then go on to well, it's been hidden because people don't speak the language. Bull$hit! Again, I've wiped the floor with Chinese speaking little runts in Chinatown. Me. A Cuban American who likes to fight.

Punching someone in the knows is universal for "I'm your daddy."

[SimonM]

There's no short cut."

On this we agree 100%

[Ray Pina]

As I gear up to go surf it dawns on me:

You'd think the world's greatest surfer would be what, Hawaiian, right? All the big waves, the culture, history, the founders of the sport....


The worlds greatest surfer, by far, is from Florida. Kelly Slater.

Desire is what sets people apart. And their dedication to seeing things through.

In the end, TCMA is week because of it's practitioners. They lack the desire to do what it takes to reach even the standard of the day. It's not language, religion or culture. It's a failure to be on the matt sweaty and sometimes bruised and battered. It's flowery. It's external for show. It's something to talk about at ****tail parties.

[Darthlawyer]

In the end, TCMA is week because of it's practitioners. They lack the desire to do what it takes to reach even the standard of the day. It's not language, religion or culture. It's a failure to be on the matt sweaty and sometimes bruised and battered. It's flowery. It's external for show. It's something to talk about at ****tail parties.


These kinds of sweeping generalizations are just a short-cut to thinking. TCMA is weaker than what? All MMAers? All BJJ fighters? All Pro-Wrestlers? That's just plain silly. You are comparing which TCMA-trained fighters with which MMA (for example) fighters?

There are some really great fighters at the top levels of MMA. On the other hand, there are some mediocre fighters who are just famous (Kimbo Slice). There are people who train in BJJ just to get a belt and barely train their strength and endurance and just want another colored belt. There are people who train at "MMA" schools that are in Wal-Mart, for goodness sake. There are some MMA practioners who's career wins are suspect due to cheating (Gracie's Steroid use). Heck, one of the biggest name fighters in the UFC came from Professional Wrestling. That's right, Professional Wrestling. There isn't even real competition in professional wrestling. Its fixed, fake, phoney. But Brock Lesnar spent a little bit of time supplementing his Wrestling skills with some other arts and he was competing at the same level as people who have been practicing BJJ and other MAs for their whole lives.

You can't take the best fighters a system has and compare them with the kids who put on their favorite white pajamas 2 times a week and say MMA or whatever is better than TCMA. Heck, if someone can come in from Pro Wrestling and win, I bet you could train a Wu-Shu player for a bit and have them win a few fights, too!

I agree that desire and determination have everything to do with what makes a martial artist great. However, just because TCMA doesn't have an international platform to determine its best fighters, doesn't mean you can make across the board comparisons. Someone who trains HARD in TCMA (including endurance, strength, flexibility, sparring, etc) is going to be able to compete with someone who trains equally hard with another art, if they fight in rule sets that are fair to both fighters. Or if you give them opportunity to supplement their training for a reasonable time to accommodate the rules of a particular fight.

[Taixuquan99]

Using your art in combat tells you.

You're glossing over your argument. Without a body of knowledge, there is no "art". You don't use that body, you don't know that art, period. At the highest level of each art, bjj included, are people familiar with their and their rival's notes, and the notes of notables that came before them.

As for having to learn another language for bjj, you don't have to because there are good books available in English, and many of them. If you think that the info available regarding your own style is as available in English as in Chinese, you are living in a dream world.


Maybe this is the problem. Too many people reading and gaining a "book education."

Total straw man. One needs knowledge of the style and entrainment of that knowledge, I already stated that. Being able to fight does not mean one is knowledgeable in specific fields, only that they are able to fight. Some knowledge helps, that knowledge is valid, but if it isn't bjj, it still isn't bjj, if it isn't judo, it still isn't judo. In bjj, judo, boxing, etc, if you fight well enough, but aren't really greaat at fighting specifically with that style, no one would call you a teacher. In kung fu, it's the opposite, and this is largely because one's teacher as a sole source is the standard. A doctor would never brag about having had only one teacher. Even a dental assistant wouldn't.

I'm sorry, but the source material is much more plentiful if you know Chinese, this is demonstrably true, in text, footage, and teachers. It will become less true over time, but now is now.

If you were somewhere where a group trained boxing, but the total sum of their knowledge in boxing were less than the totality of it, and they fill the gaps to be good fighters(fighters over boxers), what you end up with over time might be quite different, might involve a lot more takedowns, or more clinching, or what have you. It would be a fighting method, but it would be inaccurate to call it boxing, so you get Korean and Japanese arts that have Chinese influences, but are not the same as the influencing art.

All the fighting in the world does not necessarily make you a boxer. You might have great knowledge, that is not the question, the question is, compared to the useful knowledge of style X that is extant, how much of it should you have if you call yourself a teacher of style X?

As I said before, it is like the entry of Buddhism into China, at first the texts were limited, at 5the point that they became less limited, that difference allowed for local influences to enter in, so that Chinese Buddhism has its own pros and cons in addition to Indian Buddhism, but it also benefits from the thought put into the original version.

To rely only on oral transmission and disregard reliable and useful texts is quite literally willful ignorance. All these so-called purely oral traditions talk endlessly about books various members had. It is unfortunte that most of us would have difficulty translating them, but as more and more are translated, the overall worth of the systems will benefit, the level of skill of the major players will be greater, etc, because what should be common knowledge, which is not currently all that common, will take its rightful place.

You say the problem is too many book, but I am not aware of five english books on kung fu usage that are worth more than five minutes reading, and I'm betting you aren't, either.

[Ray Pina]

These kinds of sweeping generalizations are just a short-cut to thinking. TCMA is weaker than what? All MMAers? All BJJ fighters? All Pro-Wrestlers? That's just plain silly. You are comparing which TCMA-trained fighters with which MMA (for example) fighters?.

TCMA is weaker than MMA. Compare which TCMA-trained fighter? Which one do you offer up?

Here's the truth: MMA is the best training method right now because it is not a style... it is an approach. If you studied BJJ for 18 years, since youth, and win international competition and want to go out to fight, you go find yourself someone with the hand and foot skills that you respect. Maybe it's a Muay Tai boxer. Maybe you find a boxer and a kick boxer.

MMA is about customizing your individual fighting needs. For me, I have studied hand fighting my whole life and don't enjoy training kick boxing. I have a different approach. I train BJJ, wrestling and boxing. For me, right now, that is the combination that keeps my fundamentals sharp while expanding into new territory.

Some people incorporate lifting more than others. Some don't like to lift, and use other methods.

You can't put MMA into a box. It's beautiful. It's what ancients which they had.... easy access to top-of-the-line technology from every where known. It accepts everything useful and discards the unnecessary.

Now compare that with lion dancing. I had teachers that insisted we spend a ridiculous amount of time training that as we approached Chinese New Years... yes, it helped our stances and structure. Sure. Not as much as it made them money.

How much time training with fake weapons? When will you have a Kwan Do at your disposal? How many have actually trained these weapons with real resistance? Here's a great test: stay close and unleash on a heavy bag with your three-section staff.... so many people have no clue how a weapon reacts to real contact. Just like with their hands and feet.

TCMA doesn't have the time to waste with all this other stuff. Think practically: living in an age when you had to fend for yourself, do you have 20 years to master all these weapons? You choose what you like and train it for your life's sake.

I for one think TCMA, as a relevant defensive system, is pretty much dead. If it has a use at all, it fails in comparison with other arts that can be demonstrated live against strangers in a much faster time period.

You accuse me of taking a short cut to thinking. All I read here, day in and day out, are intellectual excuses to why TCMA has failed. Not failing. It has failed already....and because it has failed so badly it will have a hard time attracting the type of people it would require to redeem itself.

This is just the truth. I'm sorry. My condolences. :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

TCMA is weaker than MMA. Compare which TCMA-trained fighter? Which one do you offer up?

Here's the truth: MMA is the best training method right now because it is not a style... it is an approach. If you studied BJJ for 18 years, since youth, and win international competition and want to go out to fight, you go find yourself someone with the hand and foot skills that you respect. Maybe it's a Muay Tai boxer. Maybe you find a boxer and a kick boxer.

MMA is about customizing your individual fighting needs. For me, I have studied hand fighting my whole life and don't enjoy training kick boxing. I have a different approach. I train BJJ, wrestling and boxing. For me, right now, that is the combination that keeps my fundamentals sharp while expanding into new territory.

Some people incorporate lifting more than others. Some don't like to lift, and use other methods.

You can't put MMA into a box. It's beautiful. It's what ancients which they had.... easy access to top-of-the-line technology from every where known. It accepts everything useful and discards the unnecessary.

(

Its funny cause Ray just described what TMA USED to be.

[Dragonzbane76]

taking no prisoners ray? haha hard truths.

In honesty I can't say it's a dead thing. TCMA has a lot to teach us that the "modern" equation doesn't subscribe to. You have to dig for it, but that's the point. The love and passion that many have for it is awesome. Loyalty and dedication to it. But i think that also hinders it in some sense because many are not willing to change it for updated thinking. scared that they are ruining a tradition.

But looking back at the history of it you see that the "founders" where about crossing into the unknown and putting themselves in uncomfortable positions. The roots are strong but I fear the tree itself is suffering.

[Ray Pina]

This puts things in perspective.

Ever hear of John Cholish? Most MMA fans haven't because he's not "in the UFC." He's not the highest-ranked guy at Renzo Gracie's in NYC. I've never seen him in a gi. I don't think he has a belt.

Not a hero (yet) or famous (yet) as a fighter, here's some example of his level. The second a 4th round victory for a title.

http://www.allthebestfights.com/mma-video-fight-cholish-vs-stevens/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhUTLRV4PlU

Can you see the difference? Not every MMA makes it to the UFC. But the level, ability, depth of knowledge of anyone who trains for 2 years plus of MMA is uncomparable to TCMA. This guy would eat Sifu's alive. Embarass them.

To infer that somehow TCMA is producing fighters of this calibre is laughable. Even at the highest level of TCMA. In fact, please tell me who are the top 3 representative fighters of TCMA in the 180lbs to 200lbs weight class?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This puts things in perspective.

Ever hear of John Cholish? Most MMA fans haven't because he's not "in the UFC." He's not the highest-ranked guy at Renzo Gracie's in NYC. I've never seen him in a gi. I don't think he has a belt.

Not a hero (yet) or famous (yet) as a fighter, here's some example of his level. The second a 4th round victory for a title.

http://www.allthebestfights.com/mma-video-fight-cholish-vs-stevens/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhUTLRV4PlU

Can you see the difference? Not every MMA makes it to the UFC. But the level, ability, depth of knowledge of anyone who trains for 2 years plus of MMA is uncomparable to TCMA. This guy would eat Sifu's alive. Embarass them.

To infer that somehow TCMA is producing fighters of this calibre is laughable. Even at the highest level of TCMA. In fact, please tell me who are the top 3 representative fighters of TCMA in the 180lbs to 200lbs weight class?

John trains for competition in MMA Ray, its an unfair comparison.
A more honest one is asking how a TCMA practioner, training for MMA, would fair.

[Ray Pina]

You have to dig for it, but that's the point. The love and passion that many have for it is awesome. Loyalty and dedication to it.

I totally understand what you're saying. And I don't mean to come off as a hater. And there are useful elements if you find them, just like you said.

With that said, the unjustified arrogance of these people boils my blood.... because not only do they not deserve it, the refuse to give the respect where it is due. Randy Couture is a living martial arts legend. He can share a lot with someone seeking to improve their combat ability.... more than some mythical figure from the past.

Anyway, the point I wanted to address regarding your post is loyalty: It is important and it was instilled in me in karate and TCMA. But in TCMA's case there's a tint of insecurity in it.

As I matured. I realized my loyalty is first to myself and my family. I have loved and respected all of my teachers. But I didn't count on them for the answers to every problem. When they answered what was being asked, I went one to ask different questions of different people. No one can answer every question.

Karate Kid and Kung Fu made the notion of a sifu father figure attractive. You respect your high school teachers and college professors. Old employers. Maybe even keep in touch. But to grow, by nature, is to change.

[Taixuquan99]

The only teachers worth worrying about AREN'T disrespecting good martial artists for their own gain.

To spend two minutes worrying about the rest, or conflating people who AREN'T them with them, is wasting your own time.

[Dragonzbane76]

But to grow, by nature, is to change.

summerized what i was trying to state. :p

But all humans fear change in some form or another. That is the base of it.

Loyalty as you stated is a hallmark of it. It's not a bad ethic. I really don't like HW108 but I admire his loyalty to what he believes. He's dedicated to it. Can't fault him, but that's the flip side what i'm speaking of. Blind dedication to something when you know a cliff is coming up.


unjustified arrogance of these people boils my blood....

it does mine to... but we have to experience the uncomfortable to understand the significance of it. And some people don't want to cross that hurtle. Fear of the unknown.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a few reason why a person is confident, even arrogant, in their fighting skills.
1) They fight and they win ( more often than lose at least).
2)They learn from someone that has done the above.
3) They learn a style of someone that has done #1
4) The learn a style of someone that they have been told, had done #1

Anything other than #1 is wishful thinking IMO.

[Ray Pina]

John trains for competition in MMA Ray, its an unfair comparison.
A more honest one is asking how a TCMA practioner, training for MMA, would fair.

In their lies the point.

One goes out to find quality instruction, perhaps from more than one place, because they are going to be put to the test. Everyone I train with doesn't fight. But they all compete in their areas of expertise. The BJJ guys roll internationally. A couple just took some medals in Texas (I think it was) and New York. The boxers box...Newbies are competing at their level in under a year.

TCMA has cut itself off from the rest of the martial arts world, is quick to criticize and claim unique high-level knowledge (don't make me go cut-and-paste some of the ridiculous statements) but what are they training for?

I propose the goal of TCMA training is to talk about it. To give the impression of martial skill with form. Equipment. Etc.

If the goal is to produce competent martial artists, it has failed.

[MightyB]

..........
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2010/12/buttdrag.jpg

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In their lies the point.

One goes out to find quality instruction, perhaps from more than one place, because they are going to be put to the test. Everyone I train with doesn't fight. But they all compete in their areas of expertise. The BJJ guys roll internationally. A couple just took some medals in Texas (I think it was) and New York. The boxers box...Newbies are competing at their level in under a year.

TCMA has cut itself off from the rest of the martial arts world, is quick to criticize and claim unique high-level knowledge (don't make me go cut-and-paste some of the ridiculous statements) but what are they training for?

I propose the goal of TCMA training is to talk about it. To give the impression of martial skill with form. Equipment. Etc.

If the goal is to produce competent martial artists, it has failed.

The vast majority of people in ANY TMA gym are there to train for fun and self defense from the very slim chance of getting into a fight with an untrained person.
People that wanna fight and compete full contact have, for quiet sometime, gone to Boxing, "kickboxing" and now, MMA gyms.

[Ray Pina]

The vast majority of people in ANY TMA gym are there to train for fun and self defense from the very slim chance of getting into a fight with an untrained person.
People that wanna fight and compete full contact have, for quiet sometime, gone to Boxing, "kickboxing" and now, MMA gyms.


I agree with your earlier post, that the proof is in the results. In winning. And I'd go even further to define winning as leaving an engagement no worse than when one entered.... to "win" against a stranger but to lose 1 tooth is a loss to me.

As for the above, I agree again. But this is why I think their needs to be a differentiation between TCMA -- which is essentially Wushu, and to not offend those who think I need to understand the culture I'm aware of WuShu's true meaning, just like Kung Fu, but in practical terms it means ballet dancing in ancient Chinese garb -- and true combative's training. I think it's false advertising to claim today's TCMA, at least in the U.S. and even most of what I've seen in SHanghai -- as martial art. The systems are not properly preparing their students. To a point they're not even aware of the jacka$$ remarks that they feel entitled to make to people who have done the training and fighting. If they want to talk about Wude..... that is disrespectful, dishonest and disloyal to any true martial heritage that they may have possessed.

You want to be a warrior. Live like one. And that starts with being honest with oneself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

[Lebaufist]

The vast majority of people in ANY TMA gym are there to train for fun and self defense from the very slim chance of getting into a fight with an untrained person.
People that wanna fight and compete full contact have, for quiet sometime, gone to Boxing, "kickboxing" and now, MMA gyms.True, its a function of the retail mall MA instructor. You retain more students if hard contact isn't mandatory.

The best one can do is to have both. Time, space, and cash flow permitting.

As it is. MMA schools have a good portion of "rice bags" too. They are, by sheer need, doing both.

[MightyB]

You want to be a warrior. Live like one. And that starts with being honest with oneself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

I love that clip - right now I'm open for criticism from TCMAers because I'm hobbling around like a 90 year old because of an injury received from training.

I had a great night, super hard workout, and during interval training 1 minute grappling then switch to 1 minute striking defense with the boxing instructor, then next partner grappling, do same thing until you run the entire line of students... Anyway - was having a great night, then on the lightest guy besides me (last guy of my interval)... I did something to strain the back. It's healing fine, but I'll be out at least a week.

Unfortunately injuries happen - But that's what it takes if you want the real MA experience. Sooner or later, you're going to get hurt - I don't think a lot of wannabe MAists are willing to get hurt. If you're unwilling and afraid of a little pain - you won't reach your full potential - at least that's my opinion.

[SimonM]

Unfortunately injuries happen - But that's what it takes if you want the real MA experience. Sooner or later, you're going to get hurt - I don't think a lot of wannabe MAists are willing to get hurt. If you're unwilling and afraid of a little pain - you won't reach your full potential - at least that's my opinion.

In the course of training I've sprained both ankles, pulled a hamstring, torn a ligament connecting my pec to my shoulder (that one was a special sort of pain), broken a finger, broken my nose twice, and lost a tooth... I was wearing a mouth guard at the time but that's what happens when you step into the ring to box with a guy whose arms are as big around as your thighs and then drop your left hand too much.

Was TKO'd.

To my credit I did get back up, and had the ref not called the match, would have continued. :D

Probably for the best that the ref called the match. I was severely outclassed in that one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Heck, I been nursing a screwed about achilles tendon for months.
Seems like everything I do I re-injure it.

[bawang]

that means you are like achiles, you ronly weakness is your heel.

[SimonM]

Heck, I been nursing a screwed about achilles tendon for months.
Seems like everything I do I re-injure it.

Ankle injuries are just about the worst for that.

You have to just find a week to keep off the ankle and then work a good physio routine to get it back up to proper strength and mobility by degrees.

Still though, the most pain I ever felt was the pec injury. I was rolling with another guy and I had him in my guard and his back was to me. I was trying to apply a choke but he got his chin down too fast. I was thrown by this, and lost control of his feet for just a moment and he spun, hard, and torqued all his body mass and momentum into a downward striking elbow that hit me in just the right point. Took me two weeks to be back in fighting condition, and even after that I didn't regain full mobility in my left arm for about two months.

[MightyB]

my worst was a bruised abdomen. During Shiai with another guy (Judo)... he went for some type of throw, f*cked it up and somehow we both fell and I fell stomach first on his heel. It was the edge of my stomach not center... anyway - got a deep tissue bruise. Couldn't even roll over in bed and any movement, walking, sitting, f@rting... anything hurt massively until that beyotch healed. Took like a month.

[bawang]

better crippled in body than corrupt in mind.

[ShaolinDan]

better crippled in body than corrupt in mind.

I don't know. Guess I've had the opportunity to experience both. Personally, I prefer the latter. :)

[wenshu]

my worst was a bruised abdomen. During Shiai with another guy (Judo)... he went for some type of throw, f*cked it up and somehow we both fell and I fell stomach first on his heel. It was the edge of my stomach not center... anyway - got a deep tissue bruise. Couldn't even roll over in bed and any movement, walking, sitting, f@rting... anything hurt massively until that beyotch healed. Took like a month.

Eating repeated leg kicks from both shaolin and muay thai peeps in the same week. Entire left thigh was purple/black from knee to hip. Had to sleep with the leg elevated for a month and a half just so the pain would stay at a persistent dull ache rather than excruciatingly searing. ****, that was a year ago and I think there is still some yellowish tint. . .

[Ray Pina]

True, its a function of the retail mall MA instructor. You retain more students if hard contact isn't mandatory.

The best one can do is to have both. Time, space, and cash flow permitting.

As it is. MMA schools have a good portion of "rice bags" too. They are, by sheer need, doing both.

My coach has been looking for a new place for us to train and I suggested we just rent our own place and trick it out (wall-to-wall pads) instead of sub renting. His reply: the only way to pay that rent is to teach kids.

We have a couple younger teens, 15 or 16, that train with us. And they're awesome. And I respect them. But we don't want to train with kids. So we're still looking for options.

And it's not that we don't want to teach younger kids too. But that's a full-time job in itself. Just to pay the rent. We want to train from 7 to 9:30 after work. Train us.

[Ray Pina]

I love that clip - right now I'm open for criticism from TCMAers because I'm hobbling around like a 90 year old because of an injury received from training.

I had a great night, super hard workout, and during interval training 1 minute grappling then switch to 1 minute striking defense with the boxing instructor, then next partner grappling, do same thing until you run the entire line of students... Anyway - was having a great night, then on the lightest guy besides me (last guy of my interval)... I did something to strain the back. It's healing fine, but I'll be out at least a week.

Unfortunately injuries happen - But that's what it takes if you want the real MA experience. Sooner or later, you're going to get hurt - I don't think a lot of wannabe MAists are willing to get hurt. If you're unwilling and afraid of a little pain - you won't reach your full potential - at least that's my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your injury.. I just came off of two back to back injuries which took a lot of wind out of my sales. I gained over 20lbs.... I missed surfing most of last winter. And about 6 months of real training.

I'm running more and swimming to get back in shape. I still got another 8lbs to drop. I've been training again for the past five or six months, though.

Take the time you need heal. If you have too and want too, train around it. Best of luck though.

[Lebaufist]

My coach has been looking for a new place for us to train and I suggested we just rent our own place and trick it out (wall-to-wall pads) instead of sub renting. His reply: the only way to pay that rent is to teach kids.

We have a couple younger teens, 15 or 16, that train with us. And they're awesome. And I respect them. But we don't want to train with kids. So we're still looking for options.

And it's not that we don't want to teach younger kids too. But that's a full-time job in itself. Just to pay the rent. We want to train from 7 to 9:30 after work. Train us.There in lays the rub. Even Ross has said in the past that only a small percentage of students want to do it "for real". This is definitely a condition of the modern era. In my time, I'm old btw, it was a given that a MA school was SUPPOSED to batter you. You were supposed to come home bruised and bumped. Now its a major **** fit if little johnny comes home with a scrape.

[Lebaufist]

Heck, I been nursing a screwed about achilles tendon for months.
Seems like everything I do I re-injure it.Whoa, for a couple of seconds there I thought you said you screwed a nurse behind Chilli's.

[SimonM]

There are a few reason why a person is confident, even arrogant, in their fighting skills.
1) They fight and they win ( more often than lose at least).
2)They learn from someone that has done the above.
3) They learn a style of someone that has done #1
4) The learn a style of someone that they have been told, had done #1

Anything other than #1 is wishful thinking IMO.

You forgot 5) They enjoy fighting and are masochistic enough not to worry too much about winning or losing so long as they are fighting.