Lets at least agree what sparriing IS....

[GlennR]

Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

YKW just posted these clips and id agree they are spot on, in my opinion, as a good platform for sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUAqhp0_KV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiAi9DFhFMs


Let the abuse begin ;)

[Fa Xing]

Looks good to me, but I train Jeet Kune Do, we do that **** all the time.

[wingchunIan]

Agree with the sentiment of the thread but would suggest that the clips posted are not sparring, they are competition fights (in this case sanshou according to the title).
I'd offer this as a clip of sparring, obviously the intensity can be ramped up but ultimately it should be a learning experience for at least one party.

http://youtu.be/MAxfXCl_tfQ

[GlennR]

Agree with the sentiment of the thread but would suggest that the clips posted are not sparring, they are competition fights (in this case sanshou according to the title).
I'd offer this as a clip of sparring, obviously the intensity can be ramped up but ultimately it should be a learning experience for at least one party.

http://youtu.be/MAxfXCl_tfQ


Thanks Ian.... id agree with that one as well. Good mid level sparring working their technique

[Miguel]

Agree with the sentiment of the thread but would suggest that the clips posted are not sparring, they are competition fights (in this case sanshou according to the title).
I'd offer this as a clip of sparring, obviously the intensity can be ramped up but ultimately it should be a learning experience for at least one party.

http://youtu.be/MAxfXCl_tfQ

+1, that's my opinion of sparring as well

[Phil Redmond]

Sparring is good. Hopefully it'll lead to competing full contact like the first clips.

[Wayfaring]

Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

YKW just posted these clips and id agree they are spot on, in my opinion, as a good platform for sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUAqhp0_KV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiAi9DFhFMs


Let the abuse begin ;)

Seems like a inner school or intra school sanshou match there, not sparring. Not sure of the rules - it seems similar to sanda where hip throws are allowed but no ground. No GNP at all. Weird rules - not sure exactly what it was they were doing by standing counts after the one kid's turning back kick.

The elements that they are wearing boxing gloves and going unrestricted are similar to sparring. The pace for sparring can range from going after someone to feeling out movements and light striking.

Not a public advertised match as you see very few spectators.

[Graham H]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUAqhp0_KV0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiAi9DFhFMs


)

Kick boxing sparring yes! Ving Tsun sparring no!

GH

[Vajramusti]

Kick boxing sparring yes! Ving Tsun sparring no!

GH
-----------------------------------------------------

I agree.

joy chaudhuri

[m1k3]

I posted this in the other sparring thread and I wanted to quote it here. I believe the responses belong in the other thread but I wanted people here to respond as well, if they so desire.


For those who are against sparring in WC I am curious as to why.

I'm not talking about folks who train and aren't interested in sparring but those who are against sparring.

BTW, this is a serious question as I can't get my head around the against sparring concept.

Thanks
__________________
Mike

[GlennR]

Kick boxing sparring yes! Ving Tsun sparring no!

GH

Not so much looking at the techniques but the intent.

So ill bite G and Joy........... how would WC sparring differ?

[Vajramusti]

Not so much looking at the techniques but the intent.

So ill bite G and Joy........... how would WC sparring differ?
-------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I have posted something related to this on the other sparring thread.

BTW things get twisted around. I did not say that a fight will end with 3 moves.
You prepare seriously and be prepared to end it in 3 moves or less...but ofcourse you have lots of things in reserve- you keep your tank full for subsequent action if needed.

There is some word twisting, goading and trolling that goes on in threads. Used to it.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

-------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I have posted something related to this on the other sparring thread.

BTW things get twisted around. I did not say that a fight will end with 3 moves.
You prepare seriously and be prepared to end it in 3 moves or less...but ofcourse you have lots of things in reserve- you keep your tank full for subsequent action if needed.

There is some word twisting, goading and trolling that goes on in threads. Used to it.

joy chaudhuri

Youve lost me Joy, i just asked what WC sparring would look like (as opposed to the clips put up) and made no refrence to the 3 moves thing.
So im guessing im not going to get an answer in regards to what WC sparring would look like
Thats cool though

[Vajramusti]

Hi Glenn- this is what I wrote on the other thread about sparring.
("Spar" has become a word game with variable meanings on this and related threads. If spar means wearing gloves and maybe wearing a head guard and bouncing around- been there done that. I still have gloves around and spar for fun. But wing chun version of contact work speeds up learning wing chun's approach to self defense faster. As my kung fu brother has pointed out generally we don't spar
in class- but we do various kinds of chi sao (gasp). I think the chi sao is also a word- what we do in chi sao is different from other chi sao that I have seen. It's not just sensitivity-- it is also learning and using and experimenting--(a lab) with different kinds of power, timing, distance, not being stuck, positioning, opening, finding, closing lines , targeting, controlling, integrating footwork, separating, closing, lots of footwork and lots pf other things . When class is over some folks on their own stick around and if they wish, square off with baijong and can go at it with controls.
Some of the students have entered tournaments not for cups and medals but to gain experience.

Training for competition involves supplementation knowing the rules and more intense conditioning. One of my current students- a top flight grappler and striker has mixed it up quite well in competition and also a good mma(gasp) club. He has worn gloves for specific events and I have worked with him with gloves.

On this thread folks often play the same old word games.

joy chaudhuri)
____________

Regarding clips- I have none- except for occasional use of an instamatic camera I am a primitive when it comes to cameras and videos.

Sorry if any of this does not speak to your questions.

joy chaudhuri

[stonecrusher69]

well put.....

[Graham H]

Not so much looking at the techniques but the intent.

So ill bite G and Joy........... how would WC sparring differ?

Glen we dont spar in tents! :D

[GlennR]

Glen we dont spar in tents! :D


From what i hear you spar in a dress..... ya knob ;)

[GlennR]

Hi Glenn- this is what I wrote on the other thread about sparring.
("Spar" has become a word game with variable meanings on this and related threads. If spar means wearing gloves and maybe wearing a head guard and bouncing around- been there done that. I still have gloves around and spar for fun.

Fair enough


But wing chun version of contact work speeds up learning wing chun's approach to self defense faster.

Yes it does. To a point


As my kung fu brother has pointed out generally we don't spar
in class-

Fair enough again, thats your approach


but we do various kinds of chi sao (gasp).

The gasp is somewhat patronising Joy. Youre not the only one that does that, ive done mainland a TST WC so ive had comprehensive exposure to 2 schools of thought.


I think the chi sao is also a word- what we do in chi sao is different from other chi sao that I have seen. It's not just sensitivity-- it is also learning and using and experimenting--(a lab) with different kinds of power, timing, distance, not being stuck, positioning, opening, finding, closing lines , targeting, controlling, integrating footwork, separating, closing, lots of footwork and lots pf other things . When class is over some folks on their own stick around and if they wish, square off with baijong and can go at it with controls.

Yep, same same


Some of the students have entered tournaments not for cups and medals but to gain experience.

Cool, i can relate to that. Some just like to fight as well.


Training for competition involves supplementation knowing the rules and more intense conditioning. One of my current students- a top flight grappler and striker has mixed it up quite well in competition and also a good mma(gasp) club. He has worn gloves for specific events and I have worked with him with gloves.

All power to him


On this thread folks often play the same old word games.

Sure, i think we are all guilty of that at some stage.

But i go back to the original clip i posted Joy, put one of your guys in there instead of the 2 in there now...... how do you fare against the big leg kicks, the hooks, grappling, footwork if all youve done is WC on WC specific drills?
How do you know what will or wont work if you havent trialled it??

ie, no sparring experience

You mention the fighter you have (mma guy) but whilst he does some WC with you, his base is grappling..... he would have done a ton of sparring

[Graham H]

From what i hear you spar in a dress..... ya knob ;)

Well all the idiots do say WC was created by a woman!

GH


PS. Ya c**t! :D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1128116]Fair enough






The gasp is somewhat patronising Joy. Youre not the only one that does that, ive done mainland a TST WC so ive had comprehensive exposure to 2 schools of thought.

((Not my intention to be patronising. The intended context was the claims of some that chi sao is
superfluous since there is "sparring"))








But i go back to the original clip i posted Joy, put one of your guys in there instead of the 2 in there now...... how do you fare against the big leg kicks, the hooks, grappling, footwork if all youve done is WC on WC specific drills?

((WC was not intended just to deal with other wc..My POV and practice involves considerable attention to structure, footwork and understanding the role of gravity, The clips show poor wc structure IMO of course- but props that they got into the ring to face someone))


How do you know what will or wont work if you havent trialled it??

((Have experimented with kickers, grapplers and both southpaw and "northpaw?" strikers- enough to know the wc game))


joy

[n.mitch]

i agree mate , most sparring looks similar , unless its organised ie one person attacks one counters , you might use this type of sparring to help a person with his timing or work on specific things. if people use wing chun conceps and adapt it to sparring it will look similar, i have met people that call chi sao sparring though lol, each to there own, its good to do both

[GlennR]

i agree mate , most sparring looks similar , unless its organised ie one person attacks one counters , you might use this type of sparring to help a person with his timing or work on specific things. if people use wing chun conceps and adapt it to sparring it will look similar, i have met people that call chi sao sparring though lol, each to there own, its good to do both

Hi Nath
Yep, it all looks fairly similar at once sparring... the discerning eye can pick the different stylists style.. but to a layperson it all looks the same.

And whilst a "hard" chi-sao session can be a bit kknock about and taxing, it just doesnt represent the mayhem of fighting... only sparring can

But, to each their own! ;)

ps. got smashed in sparring last night and can barely walk today... maybe the non-sparring way has merit :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

There may not be a perfect definition for sparring, but I can say with certainty that sparring does not always have to be full-contact. Moreover, sparring can be to simulate competition. The hope in any school is that your student's have the opportunity to experience a competition-level sparring session before their first real competition. I can say with absolute certainty that hard and light sparring is necessary for fighters to grow.

Basically, sparring is anytime two people engage each other and are free to use any tactic within the confines of safety rules strictly for learning purposes. If the rules are very restrictive, to the point of only allowing one or two strikes (e.g. jab, cross) it is drilling. Now all sparring is drilling, but not all drilling is sparring.

[Wayfaring]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

[GlennR]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

Excellent Post WF..... your description of sparring was spot on

[WC1277]

It's hard to agree definitively on definitions for "sparring" and "drilling".

Most basically, drilling would involve restricting free movement and focusing on a particular scenario. Ideally this scenario would be a cross-section of a realistic fight.

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

If people are doing that, it represents a baseline of training for fight scenarios. If they are not, it does not.

As far as all the other variables involved, I'd just say it's good to become familiar with them. Encourage expanding horizons rather than becoming pedantic about instisting on some of them. Things like:

1) Gloves - various sizes - 4oz MMA, 12-16oz boxing, bag gloves, even just driving or weightlifting gloves. How do these affect movement? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these? Same with feet - spar with shin pads? Without? Allow foot attacks in sparring?

2) Time - meaning timed rounds. How long can you spar? At what pace? Do you have a timer that you can set for a length of round? For intervals between rounds? 3 min rounds? 4, 5, 6, 10? What changes with respect to needs for each of those? Can you configure your sparring to help your athletic conditioning by charting out numbers of rounds, time, and time of rest intervals?

3) Ring - what types of rings or arenas do you spar in? Open grass field with nothing around? A forest with trees? Urban? Basketball court with chain link? A boxing ring? A MMA cage? What adjustments do you need to make for each of these environments?

(Now the only caveat I'll make about this factor is that many MA schools seem to have mirrors all over the place. That's not extremely safe for exploring completely free unrestricted movement. If you can, cut your mirror space in half and put up wall padding in the half you removed as a compromise.)

4) Opponents - beginner, intermediate, advanced? What about weight classes? What adjustments do you make fighting up a weight class or down? How about up a skill level or down? Can you work with a pro fighter and keep calm and contained? Be a good sparring partner? How about a beginner?

5) Competition - most of the world is not at war with hand to hand combat being the only option. Thus the approximation a civil society makes to train towards that goal is athletic based competitions. What competitions are around your area? Striking? Wrestling? Submission wrestling? MMA - amateur or pro? San da? Chi sau? What competitions could you consider training yourself or your club for? What rules do they have? What adjustments to make? How about cost? Travel? Some people don't like to compete. Others do. Many that do talk about the benefits of testing themselves, seeing truly their areas of strength and weakness, and having a definitive goal to prepare for. One key area in preparing for competition is to spend time preparing for competing safely - go over specific strategies and training for how to remain safe and healthy in competition. If yourself or teammates do sustain injuries spend time ensuring that your next preparation time helps prevent those specific injuries or scenarios.

All of those elements are GOOD. Not BAD. They help reduce the ego and increase the skillsets. They help a martial artist become stronger, more technical and more healthy. Sure there are people out there that don't approach them this way. But they are the distortion - don't let them affect you. Push on and build yourself. This is the martial way.

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha! ;)

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....:D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1127440]Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Glenn- I don't see a universally valid meaning for "sparring" except a very generalized
and insufficiently helpful lift from a dictionary.
The empirical meaning is likely to vary with styles and substyles and lineages.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1127440]Morning Folks

As the sparring thread has fallen into a name calling slag fest, id suggest we get a bit of context back into it by atleast agreeing what sparring IS

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Glenn- I don't see a universally valid meaning for "sparring" except a very generalized
and insufficiently helpful lift from a dictionary.
The empirical meaning is likely to vary with styles and substyles and lineages.

joy chaudhuri

Actually Joy.... i think this is a percect description from Wayfaring

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

Keep in mind, unrestricted would pertain to your style, youd use what you have been taught.

Surely thats an appropriate description of what sparring (not drilling ) should be

[GlennR]

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha! ;)

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....:D

No, its not the exclusive MMA way............ its fighting.

And its got nothing to do about ****iness, people that spar or fight a lot quickly lose their egos. They have to as everyone gets hit

And while i may agree on the clothing lines, silk pyjamas are hardly the high point of fashion.

Look, the simple point is that if you walked into an MMA/boxing/MT gym and sparred you'd be murdered, and if one of those guys walked into your gym youd get murdered again.
You just havent done the hard yards to match it with those guys

[Wayfaring]

No, that is the MMA way. MMA is the distortion and the actual small slice of the pie that just happens to be the 'in' thing right now. And I have met more c0cky MMA fighters than style specific fighters hands down, especially when they start winning! I mean come on, have you seen their clothing lines!? Low ego!? Ha! ;)

But then again, WC guys are no better........ a clothing line would be cool....:D

You guys are about as obtuse as they come. This isn't mma it's universal. You reject all this because some mma fighters are ****y? Grow up and get some objectivity.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1128455]

Actually Joy.... i think this is a percect description from Wayfaring

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

Keep in mind, unrestricted would pertain to your style, youd use what you have been taught.

Surely thats an appropriate description of what sparring (not drilling ) should be
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's quite general..and could apply to a wide variety of human activities
including ice hockey, paint dart games...etc

The more general a definiton is, the less informative it becomes.


But not worth arguing about.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

It's quite general..and could apply to a wide variety of human activities
including ice hockey, paint dart games...etc

The more general a definiton is, the less informative it becomes.


But not worth arguing about.

joy chaudhuri

So if you actually read the post, there is a general definition that is wide enough to be all-encompassing, but there are paragraphs of specifics. The criticism of your fellow lineage guy was that it was too specific to MMA.

Your criticism is that it's too general.

You guys are funny. You are all over the map in your criticisms and denial of the need for sparring.

The definition can cover a multitude of arts. So this definition:

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

Can apply to paint, darts, ice hockey? Do you become involved in fight scenarios with open exchanges in paint, darts, or ice hockey? I suppose there's the potential for a bar fight in darts, and there are fights on the hockey rink. And maybe you practice a particularly aggressive form of painting - I don't know.

But yes, to encourage sparring and the development of it, it is good to have a general enough definition to encompass many martial arts. But it does preclude some practices.

For example, only doing squared up two-hand chi sau. There is not unrestricted free movement - both opponents artificially enter into the stance and bridge. There are limits - no striking to the face with a fist, etc. This doesn't fit the definition of sparring. That would fit the definition of drilling.

All the other elements including padding, arenas, competitions are not general at all - they are very specific. All of this is intended to help encourage the development of fighting skills. You should embrace doing so rather than sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich.

And you know, I'm not even going to lump all of you together under this viewpoint from Fong's lineage. I asked about Danny Chan. One of my fellow classmates fought him in a competition in the '80's. For a WCK guy he had better kicks than any of the TKD guys around. So I know he is familiar with the things I'm talking about and has at least trained them in the past.

[Vajramusti]

Bye bye to this thread for me for now.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

Classic :D;)

I see what you describe as actual fighting! Am I wrong? :confused:

[m1k3]

Classic :D;)

I see what you describe as actual fighting! Am I wrong? :confused:

YES, you are wrong. He is describing sparring. Why do so many people on this forum intentionally misinterpret things? Sparring is not fighting, it's just good training for fighting. Didn't any of you ever play competitive sports?

IMHO rugby or Amercian football would do a much better job of preparing you for fighting than most of the WC schools based on how their supporters post. You come off as a bunch of whiney ....... Well, let's just leave it at that.

[Grumblegeezer]

....You come off as a bunch of whiney ....... Well, let's just leave it at that.

Ha! Ain't that the truth. At least that's how it seems to me and I'm a 'chunner too. LOL

[GlennR]

Bye bye to this thread for me for now.

joy chaudhuri


I dont get you sometimes Joy..

The thread is about what sparring is and, after some good posts, a defintion is agreed upon by most of the posters. And importantly this was from people that actively, consistently spar.

Yet you say its too general (which is just wasnt) , tell everyone that you "sparred in your day"and then accuse everyone of playing word games.

Sorry, but i just dont see why you got involved in this thread other than to hear yourself heard.

[Robinhood]

That kind of training is practice for application of sport fighting, rhythm, timing, endurance ect, trading strikes back and forth, only testing your level of boxing and kicking skill, will not improve your ability much.

[GlennR]

That kind of training is practice for application of sport fighting, rhythm, timing, endurance ect, trading strikes back and forth, only testing your level of boxing and kicking skill, will not improve your ability much.

How do you know?

[LoneTiger108]

YES, you are wrong. He is describing sparring. Why do so many people on this forum intentionally misinterpret things? Sparring is not fighting, it's just good training for fighting. Didn't any of you ever play competitive sports?

IMHO rugby or Amercian football would do a much better job of preparing you for fighting than most of the WC schools based on how their supporters post. You come off as a bunch of whiney ....... Well, let's just leave it at that.

Well, if he had posted 'sparring' or 'competitive scenario' I would agree, but he didn't. He used the words 'fighting scenario' and fme a fighting scenario will include ANYTHING ie. biting, gouging and simple survival instincts!

Surely this isn't what you're promoting as 'sparring'?

[m1k3]

Well, if he had posted 'sparring' or 'competitive scenario' I would agree, but he didn't. He used the words 'fighting scenario' and fme a fighting scenario will include ANYTHING ie. biting, gouging and simple survival instincts!

Surely this isn't what you're promoting as 'sparring'?

:confused:

Sparring is not fighting, it is not even a competion. It is training for competition. It is the equivalent of a scrimmage between players on the same team. It is not a game but it is preparation for a game. This is a chance to practice different scenarios that will occur in a game. Sparring gives you and your partner a chance to practice scenarios that could occur in a competition or fight. It is not that hard to understand.

[Frost]

:confused:

Sparring is not fighting, it is not even a competion. It is training for competition. It is the equivalent of a scrimmage between players on the same team. It is not a game but it is preparation for a game. This is a chance to practice different scenarios that will occur in a game. Sparring gives you and your partner a chance to practice scenarios that could occur in a competition or fight. It is not that hard to understand.

its that hard to undertsand if you dont spar and just hit the dummy and play around with your students...its not that hard to understand if you..oh i dont know actually spar

[LoneTiger108]

:confused:

Sparring is not fighting, it is not even a competion. It is training for competition.

Ok I agree with you there, but what I was explaining has nothing to do with what you wrote. It's this summary by Wayfaring that I disagree with:


Sparring would be an open exchange with unrestricted free movement. It would involve unlimited potential responses in a fight scenario.

So by this I can throw an ashtray in your face? Knee you in the nuts or hell, just kick your knee cap to sh!t!!! Because THAT imhhho is fighting, no?

Sparring, like you suggest, is much more limited and has a different purpose than what Wafaring was trying to pin down.

Thats me out for the day now. Training and a Sunday roast are on the cards :)

[m1k3]

Lucky you. Stupid hurricane Irene cancelled everything in our area for today. And yeah I see your point, I just read wayfarings post a little different.

Enjoy your roast. :D

[jesper]

Ok I agree with you there, but what I was explaining has nothing to do with what you wrote. It's this summary by Wayfaring that I disagree with:



So by this I can throw an ashtray in your face? Knee you in the nuts or hell, just kick your knee cap to sh!t!!! Because THAT imhhho is fighting, no?

Sparring, like you suggest, is much more limited and has a different purpose than what Wafaring was trying to pin down.

Thats me out for the day now. Training and a Sunday roast are on the cards :)

except for busting caps. then why not ?
Im talking hard sparring now with protective gear mind you.

Next time two people at your gym spar try get in the way or attack one of them just to see if they react. Heck you could even have it incorporated as a gym spirit.
Depends on the level of sparring ofcourse and shouldnt be everytime.
This will teach them to observe surroundings as well as their opponent.

[Fa Xing]

I think the problem arises from people who don't actively spar or who have never done so. Sparring is between two (or more) who agree to a certain set of rules as is competitive fighting. However, all out fighting is different, while there are rules called laws (justified force), you can rest assure your opponent may not care. Be prepared for anything.

That being said, most people i have met that either train or dont are not prepared for how violent and quick things can happen. If u dont prepare for the stress you will experience, then you will be very surprised.

It has been time since i was in a fight, but i like it that way. The point of learning to fight is to not fight unless all other options have been exhausted.

[jesper]

I think the problem arises from people who don't actively spar or who have never done so. Sparring is between two (or more) who agree to a certain set of rules as is competitive fighting. However, all out fighting is different, while there are rules called laws (justified force), you can rest assure your opponent may not care. Be prepared for anything.

That being said, most people i have met that either train or dont are not prepared for how violent and quick things can happen. If u dont prepare for the stress you will experience, then you will be very surprised.

It has been time since i was in a fight, but i like it that way. The point of learning to fight is to not fight unless all other options have been exhausted.

See thats just the thing. If you train Martial Art you need to be prepared for how your body reacts under extreme stress, cause that is what will happen to you in a very violent engagement.
If your not prepared you will fail, its simple as that and no chi sao or talking about it will help you there.

[GlennR]

Well, if he had posted 'sparring' or 'competitive scenario' I would agree, but he didn't. He used the words 'fighting scenario' and fme a fighting scenario will include ANYTHING ie. biting, gouging and simple survival instincts!

Isnt the whole idea of training a MA to overcome "survival instincts" and replace them with what you have trained.... ie. solid defense and attack against a physical confrontation whilst keeping your emotions in check.

You only get that sparring ,unless you can suggest something else


Surely this isn't what you're promoting as 'sparring'?

As was posted earlier, sure, anything goes as long as some simple rules are applied such as no biting, gouging etc

[Vajramusti]

Isnt the whole idea of training a MA to overcome "survival instincts" and replace them with what you have trained.... ie. solid defense and attack against a physical confrontation whilst keeping your emotions in check.

You only get that sparring ,unless you can suggest something else



As was posted earlier, sure, anything goes as long as some simple rules are applied such as no biting, gouging etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently we are so far apart on the meaning of sparring that communication is not taking place. People I know do "spar" without gloves- the main restriction is that hits, chops , joint work and throws should have controlled use of power- not the type of control of pulling back as in some karate tournaments. The contacts have enough energy to send clear messages.
Unskilled people sometimes lose control and injury can take place.

With gloves you can still hit with wing chun short power without pulling the hand back at all
or bouncing around. We don't take pictures for youtube. Rest assured we just don't only forms.
The above interactions are voluntary plus folks try out things on their own.

I know /knew how to spar with gloves but not all wing chun skills are devloped with gloves.Finis.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

Apparently we are so far apart on the meaning of sparring that communication is not taking place. People I know do "spar" without gloves- the main restriction is that hits, chops , joint work and throws should have controlled use of power- not the type of control of pulling back as in some karate tournaments. The contacts have enough energy to send clear messages.
Unskilled people sometimes lose control and injury can take place.

So now we are coming full circle. This in essence is what I'm advocating for.

With gloves you can still hit with wing chun short power without pulling the hand back at all or bouncing around.

Of course you can. There is very little difference between 4 oz gloves and bare fists. You can hit with short WC power with 16 oz gloves on. But it's amazing the delusional bias you run into against gloves and sparring.



We don't take pictures for youtube. Rest assured we just don't only forms.
The above interactions are voluntary plus folks try out things on their own.

This is better than not doing anything. However, I prefer in-class instructional sparring where a skilled teacher is overseeing this. If it's part of class, then everyone including your more timid masses get a little exposure to it and become familiar and confident. For this to only happen voluntarily and on people's own to me sends the wrong message about it that it's not necessary or supported. This develops distorted viewpoints about sparring like your friend wc1227 seems to have.



I know /knew how to spar with gloves but not all wing chun skills are devloped with gloves.

In a well-rounded class there is time for technique, for drills (restricted movement, and including sensitivity training in WCK like chi sau), and for sparring. For sparring, encourage everyone to obtain good equipment and have groups where the more experienced can go against each other harder, and the newbs can lightly throw technique and move around to get comfortable. You can also have them just drill in more restricted scenarios.

[GlennR]

Apparently we are so far apart on the meaning of sparring that communication is not taking place. People I know do "spar" without gloves- the main restriction is that hits, chops , joint work and throws should have controlled use of power- not the type of control of pulling back as in some karate tournaments. The contacts have enough energy to send clear messages.

Yep, i do that as well, but, sending messages isnt the same as being struck with reasonable force.... the question is how do you prepare for that


Unskilled people sometimes lose control and injury can take place.

Injury can, and does, take place from all levels in sparring


With gloves you can still hit with wing chun short power without pulling the hand back at all
or bouncing around. We don't take pictures for youtube. Rest assured we just don't only forms.
The above interactions are voluntary plus folks try out things on their own.

Sounds like WC 101.


I know /knew how to spar with gloves but not all wing chun skills are devloped with gloves.Finis.

True, not all SKILLS will be learnt with gloves, however the reality of fighting means knowing how to deal with the shock of being hit with reasonable force.
Personally, i havent found a way to experience this safely without gloves

[Fa Xing]

See thats just the thing. If you train Martial Art you need to be prepared for how your body reacts under extreme stress, cause that is what will happen to you in a very violent engagement.
If your not prepared you will fail, its simple as that and no chi sao or talking about it will help you there.

That's actually what I was getting at.

[LoneTiger108]

Next time two people at your gym spar try get in the way or attack one of them just to see if they react. Heck you could even have it incorporated as a gym spirit.

I wouldn't think this would be possible for me as I only coach privately from my own little Flystudio. I don't own a thousand square feet of gym coz I live in London UK dude and rates are far too expensive :eek: (although that would be luverly!)

[jesper]

I wouldn't think this would be possible for me as I only coach privately from my own little Flystudio. I don't own a thousand square feet of gym coz I live in London UK dude and rates are far too expensive :eek: (although that would be luverly!)

When I was younger sometimes when we sparred people would train escrima in same room.
So you would have the occasional stick flying through the air or other people bumping into you. All helped to keep you on your toe and improve your situational awareness.

Also sifu would have a guy randomly interrupt you while you where going at it, so you learned to be aware of your surroundings that way too