traditional chinese ranking system

[bawang]

"for martial competition, there are lower three levels, middle three levels, upper three levels:

remain at same level: no rewards. advance one level, award one silver. advance two levels, award two silvers. advance into higher class, award five silver.

remain at same level once, spare punishment. two times, beat with stick five times, third time , beat with stick ten times. remain at same ranking after competing five times, beat with stick 40 times and expel.

whoever does not want to fight, first time charge one silver, second time two silver, third time three silvers. give the money to competition winners."


from treastise on new tactics

[hskwarrior]

There is none.

[Lucas]

I will fight for silver.

[pazman]

Bawang, are you implying that you will be giving out silver to those who win fights? Count me in. I want some moneh.

[David Jamieson]

so the Chinese ranking system traditionally consists of beatings or silver...

Gotta love that kind of logic. lol
talk about extremes. :p

[bawang]

you keep complaining kung fu is too weak, then get scare by real kung fu. you arre cowerd scares

[David Jamieson]

you keep complaining kung fu is too weak, then get scare by real kung fu. you arre cowerd scares

I keep complaining? what?

What's in your morning tea buddy? lol

[SimonM]

Bawang doesn't drink morning tea -

Just Baijiu with Gouji, Rensheng and Scorpions.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

"for martial competition, there are lower three levels, middle three levels, upper three levels:

remain at same level: no rewards. advance one level, award one silver. advance two levels, award two silvers. advance into higher class, award five silver.

remain at same level once, spare punishment. two times, beat with stick five times, third time , beat with stick ten times. remain at same ranking after competing five times, beat with stick 40 times and expel.

whoever does not want to fight, first time charge one silver, second time two silver, third time three silvers. give the money to competition winners."


from treastise on new tactics

Thanks for this. I made a new subscription folder just to keep track of this thread.

I've been thinking about how to integrate the essence of this idea into a modern system (note: IMO, the essence is NOT silver or beatings.)

Instead of silver, maybe a club could offer fee discounts... the better you are, the cheaper the tuition fee?

Instead of beatings and/or expulsion, maybe a club could use demotions?

For those that don't want to fight but want to stay in the club, keep the fee high, or even raise the fee?

[David Jamieson]

a unified ranking system has been implemented in china as the Duan system.

in japan is is the Dan system.

I think the idea of continuing education and retesting to a unified standard is good.

Now, what needs to happen is the different pais/styles/schools need to confer and get rid of the dross and make the outline of what is in their system.

get rid of the guys who think they're "special" for whatever reason.

rank based on ability and skill and knowledge of the style is key to keeping Kung Fu good.

also, bolstering up the competition side by introducing a format or venues to compete that keep the wu shu people out and the out of shape people out.

raise the standards to a new level for elites and start churning out elites.

the hodge podge is actually making the soup taste crappy at this point in time.

[SPJ]

Talking about numerology

yes. 3 X 3 = 9

10 is perfect.

but 9th is to the extreme. the 9 th layer of heaven, the 9th mountains, 9th level of pagoda--

the first 3 is achievable or related to human

the 2nd 3 is still achievable or related to earth

the last 3 is very and very difficult or related to heaven.

for most of us, we may strive and get the first 3 levels

with time and practice, we may get to the middle 3 levels.

but for last 3 levels, they are for the talented and not for everyone.

we may divide our practice of a style into 9 levels.

it is just a numeric system we like to use.

for Olympic games, too.

such as figure skating, diving--

9.2 9.5 9.9 etc etc

[Lucas]

Thanks for this. I made a new subscription folder just to keep track of this thread.

I've been thinking about how to integrate the essence of this idea into a modern system (note: IMO, the essence is NOT silver or beatings.)

Instead of silver, maybe a club could offer fee discounts... the better you are, the cheaper the tuition fee?

Instead of beatings and/or expulsion, maybe a club could use demotions?

For those that don't want to fight but want to stay in the club, keep the fee high, or even raise the fee?

you can basically run your club like an ongoing tournament. Instead of testing you can do monthly 'grading'.

[bawang]

xiao meng thanx for reading this. you are a man of honor you cares about kung fu.


i think the beating to near death is obviously rediculous today, but think aobut the dynamic ranking system, where you could be demoted for incompetence.

this is a great idea for a fighting school that still would like a ranking ssytem, without getting mcdojoish. it also eliminates biased ranking.
by using a promotion by fighting ranking, you can clearly tell someones skill level by their ranking.

more importantly it is a traditional chinese ranking system. a lot of schools wander about chinese ranking, but dont have info and resort to using cheesy "sash" system or mimick japanese judo and karate ranking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am of two minds about this:
1) having been brought up in kyokushin and judo I know that ranking helps some people to measure progress and with their goal setting.
There are pros and cons to this.
2) Having been brought up in Boxing and MT I know that there is no real NEED for any ranking system per say.
I think the issue is that if one has a ranking system that it MUST mean something AND be consistent.
For example:
A Black belt used to mean something but now it is just a "high school diploma".
Either gradings systems means something or they don't, there is no middle road.

[GeneChing]

Making the Grade (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=927) (2010 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923))

All of your answers are here (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html). :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that a systems ranking system, if it is going to be base don the tradition of that system, should be whatever it's creator made it to be.
Just because SOME systems used a ranking system based 9 levels and had "motivational strategies" for progression, doesn't mean any other system should follow it.
What makes one system better than another?

[bawang]

well, it seems obvious. general qi's ranking system is great because you are promtoed by winning fights, and demoted by losing fights. sort of like sumo where you advance in ranking by winning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, it seems obvious. general qi's ranking system is great because you are promtoed by winning fights, and demoted by losing fights. sort of like sumo where you advance in ranking by winning.

That's fine, but does that mean a "Black Belt" in Toronto means the same as one in Dubai?
Winning against whom?
Open competition? internally?
Different systems?

[GeneChing]

well, it seems obvious. general qi's ranking system is great because you are promtoed by winning fights, and demoted by losing fights. sort of like sumo where you advance in ranking by winning. Funny you should mention sumo, bawang, as I just saw Freakonomics (http://www.magpictures.com/freakonomics/) and there's a segment on exactly this topic. It's definitely worth engaging before you take this point any further.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Rank is not realtive to the style, only the school teaching it.

A good way to improve quality would be to have inner school contests where a student has to beat all the other students of his level, to advance to the next.

Either that or fight in a local full contact venue to figure where his placement is.

Lets say we go that route. A beginner seeking to be an intermediate level would need to be able to fight at the beginner level in open competition and at least place in the top 3 to advance to the next level of instruction.

[bawang]

well, since he had thousands of soldiers competing i guess in today you would have to compete outside prolly in some amateur competition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, since he had thousands of soldiers competing i guess in today you would have to compete outside prolly in some amateur competition.

You are still going to have to deal with the issue of quality.
A guy that beats a crappy opponent may get a promotion but that doesn't mean he deserves it.
A guy that loses to a skilled opponent may be deserving of a promotion nevertheless.
Then you have the issue of standards.
Being the bets fighter in Boise Idaho is not the same as being the best fighter in NYC.

[bawang]

You are still going to have to deal with the issue of quality.
A guy that beats a crappy opponent may get a promotion but that doesn't mean he deserves it.
.

if he runs into real opponents then he can be demoted by losing.

even if different places mean different things, at least you can tell who is relatively the better martial artist by ranking.

also, its a lot better than todays sash system or duan system. the sash system is stupid, and wushu duan is just corrupt, cant advance without connection and bribes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if he runs into real opponents then he can be demoted by losing.

even if different places mean different things, at least you can tell who is relatively the better martial artist by ranking.

also, its a lot better than todays sash system or duan system. the sash system is stupid, and wushu duan is just corrupt, cant advance without connection and bribes.

Granted that SOME type of ranking is better than none I just don;t think that competitive "benchmark" will work outside of sports systems.

[bawang]

what i mean is today's chinese combat sports is all pretty modern and dont have many traditional aspects. i think this kinf od traditional ranking doesnt improve that much, but can add cultural value to todays stale sanda.

people some how think if you compete you cant be traditional. i think this is wrong. look at the thais. they play traditional music and have traditional dance, and combine it with modern competition. but the chinese seem to think if you want to suceed you need to abandon ALL aspects of tradition, hence separation of wushu and sanda. i think thats wrong, even immoral.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what i mean is today's chinese combat sports is all pretty modern and dont have many traditional aspects. i think this kinf od traditional ranking doesnt improve that much, but can add cultural value to todays stale sanda.

people some how think if you compete you cant be traditional. i think this is wrong. look at the thais. they play traditional music and have traditional dance, and combine it with modern competition. but the chinese seem to think if you want to suceed you need to abandon ALL aspects of tradition, hence separation of wushu and sanda. i think thats wrong, even immoral.

The only people that say competition is not tradtional are people that have no idea about the actual traditions of their systems.
ALL developers of MA systems competed in one way or another, either via "sport" matches ie: friendly challenges or via "real" challenge matches.
Every MA has anecdotes of famous masters fighting, too bad the practioners of those MA lose the MEANING of those anecdotes.
It wasn't about whether those guys in the stories COULD fight or if they won, it was that they DID FIGHT and often.

[Lokhopkuen]

Making the Grade (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=927) (2010 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=923))

All of your answers are here (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html). :cool:

Blond Asian girl very rare:D

[David Jamieson]

Blond Asian girl very rare:D

Not where I live. lol
Redheads too!

:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not where I live. lol
Redheads too!

:p

I was in your area visiting my engineer a few weeks ago and I saw just that !
Sexy piece of tail too :D

[bawang]

yeah man, an asian girl that think shes white and internalized racism jsut turns me on, i dont know why. skeet skeet skeet.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The problem with a ranking system based on competition is that even if that person wins that fight, is that the sole basis for their rank? What happens when they get older and can no longer fight full contact or hang with the young bucks, is his rank taken away then??

There will never be any kind of unified ranking system in CMA or any art other than those that are strictly observed such as BJJ, and even in that style you are getting more and more phonies coming out claiming rank.

The main problem I see with the ranking system is the ignorance of the general population of it's meaning. You still have idiots who think because someone is a black belt they are an immortal, bionic ninja who can kill people with def touch and the Yukon C**ck slam. Such is life.:p

[Ray Pina]

In BJJ we train with the Gi and without the Gi. Nothing changes on the days when we're not wearing a belt.... everyone knows where everyone else stands, partially based on competition results, partially based on their performance in class and partially based on their attitude.

If you're training live the respect takes care of itself. You're not going to bust a guys balls if you have to go 3 rounds with him later, have to roll with him.

As for silver: Anyone wanting to fight and be rewarded with money can do so by joining their state's athletic commission.

[Lokhopkuen]

That's an amazing similarity we don't train with belts at all and know exactly where each member stands on terms of rank and skill. Don't roll around much though...

[Eric Olson]

There are no levels it is a familial structure:

Sifu-teacher/father
Sihing-older brother
Sidai-younger brother

And also

Simo-teacher's wife
Sibak-uncle
Sigung-grandfather

etc...