Which legitimate TCMA skillz are in danger of being lost because of MMA?

[MightyB]

Simple question - what are your thoughts on this?


----
There's something to be said for old school gungs (both external and internal), and I'd hate to see them lost to time.

[SimonM]

None.

If the skills are legitimate they will be transmitted. If they are not they will be left on the rubbish heap of history.

This is always how it has been.

[lkfmdc]

60 plus years there were NO RULES events in Brazil. No equipment and everything was legal. there is certainly kung fu in Brazil. What happened? Well, a few lei tai / CMA people like Eduardo Fujihara and Lucas Wonderlei fought Vale Tudo and did well, but not with anything "unique" or "special" or "internal"

Yup, you guessed it, with basic kicks, punches, knees, elbows and throwing

[MightyB]

None.

If the skills are legitimate they will be transmitted. If they are not they will be left on the rubbish heap of history.

This is always how it has been.

I disagree because of the whole path of least resistance thing we tend to do. We give up on or don't try things if they're difficult... doesn't mean they don't work or don't have value, just means they're difficult.

Plus, I think there's legitimate Sifu with no good heirs out there.

[lkfmdc]

I think there's legitimate Sifu with no good heirs out there.

and WHY would that have happened?

Because they didn't actually teach the real stuff?

Because they didn't actually have students?

Because they didn't actually show the students the correct way to train?

[MightyB]

60 plus years there were NO RULES events in Brazil. No equipment and everything was legal. there is certainly kung fu in Brazil. What happened? Well, a few lei tai / CMA people like Eduardo Fujihara and Lucas Wonderlei fought Vale Tudo and did well, but not with anything "unique" or "special" or "internal"

Yup, you guessed it, with basic kicks, punches, knees, elbows and throwing

Well - let's look beyond the basics at something like Chin-Na... I believe there's some good Chin-Na (and a lot of bad) but there's some good Chin-Na. It's not easy to learn, nor is it easy to apply - but it is effective.

[MightyB]

and WHY would that have happened?

Because they didn't actually teach the real stuff?

Because they didn't actually have students?

Because they didn't actually show the students the correct way to train?

All of the above. Politics, fear, BS... all of it.

[Subitai]

none.

If the skills are legitimate they will be transmitted. If they are not they will be left on the rubbish heap of history.

This is always how it has been.

Applause!!!!! Applause!!!!! Applause!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

Well - let's look beyond the basics at something like Chin-Na... I believe there's some good Chin-Na (and a lot of bad) but there's some good Chin-Na. It's not easy to learn, nor is it easy to apply - but it is effective.

NO RULES

Pretty simple, whatever you can actually pull off you are free to pull off.

60 PLUS YEARS - 60 years to pull off some chin-na and apparently no one did. Not even from the 20,000 plus Eagle Claw (Ying Jow Pai) students that Li claims he has in Brazil

Maybe no one has ever used this stuff because it simply doesn't work

[lkfmdc]

All of the above. Politics, fear, BS... all of it.

CMA has shot itself in the foot and now is calling for gun control because it's the gun's fault :rolleyes:

Are CTS' fighting skills alive and well? YES, without any question. Why is that? because he passed them on

[SimonM]

I met an elderly gentleman in my wife's hometown who had amazing dadao skills.

He complained that his skills would die with him because of lack of interest in fighting arts in general.

He also worked as a carpenter, and was masterful as a carpenter.

He took on students, taught them how to build sturdy houses.

He didn't take on students and teach them to swing a sword.

[lkfmdc]

I met an elderly gentleman in my wife's hometown who had amazing dadao skills.

He complained that his skills would die with him because of lack of interest in fighting arts in general.

He also worked as a carpenter, and was masterful as a carpenter.

He took on students, taught them how to build sturdy houses.

He didn't take on students and teach them to swing a sword.

Some skills DO become obsolete as time passes. Sword fighting? Lance fighting? But empty hand skills remain relevant IF they work

[brothernumber9]

watermelon finger poke is in danger of being lost.

[Subitai]

NO RULES

Pretty simple, whatever you can actually pull off you are free to pull off.

60 PLUS YEARS - 60 years to pull off some chin-na and apparently no one did. Not even from the 20,000 plus Eagle Claw (Ying Jow Pai) students that Li claims he has in Brazil

Maybe no one has ever used this stuff because it simply doesn't work



Ok, now I have to interject. For Terms, Chin Na is not just about Joint locking.

To Sieze and Hold such that you put your opponent in a controlling or weak position would be a better English definition but NOT JUST "JOINT LOCKING"

So technically speaking, an "Arm Drag" that leads to a throw or lock IS CHIN NA...Just as an example.

The Best way use China Na is to have or let your opponent GIVE you the energy or force and you need to borrow and then Lock him in that direction.

IF you could just walk up to a person and apply Chin Na against his will, then my friend....you are either the HULK or your opponent sucks so bad that you don't need training. Either way, Chin Na should never be forced.

China Na as "Joint Locking or as finishing moves" persay is more difficult in Sport competition because your opponent is very aware of you and will try to resist or counter you. That just means its a fight...and whos better will win.

BUT a BOUNCER in a bar, who has someone grab him and he has to throw the guy out or perhaps CONTROLL HIM. That is another story. I have plenty of examples but I have a feeling that unless their are Youtubes to back them up...chin na in the street is all made up. haha

Oh wait, I forgot...People to try to use Martial Arts outside of the competition ring are just nobody so they don't count. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

watermelon finger poke is in danger of being lost.

new watermelon poking technology (the "straw") has made it an obsolete skill

[lkfmdc]

For Terms, Chin Na is not just about Joint locking.



Classically speaking, it has FOUR skills

Fun Gam - divide tendons

Chou Gwat - put bones the wrong way

Baai Heih - "seal the chi"

Dim Yuet - strike a cavity

The first obvious problem with these is that the first two skills which were divided in the Chinese mind are pretty much impossible to divide once you learn real anatomy

Pretty much any lock I show is a combination of manipulation of BOTH soft tissue and bone

But let's move on for now




So technically speaking, an "Arm Drag" that leads to a throw or lock IS CHIN NA...Just as an example.



Classically speaking an arm drag is "suet" or wrestling

But even if we were to say "OK" the problem becomes that so called "TCMA" don't see that an say "that is chin na"

What I am saying is, if YOU see an arm drag as "chin na" then YOU are NOT the problem

The guy who is looking for one of Ying Jow Pai's 108 locks in a real fight IS the problem




China Na as "Joint Locking or as finishing moves" persay is more difficult in Sport competition because your opponent is very aware of you and will try to resist or counter you. That just means its a fight...and whos better will win.

BUT a BOUNCER in a bar, who has someone grab him and he has to throw the guy out or perhaps CONTROLL HIM. That is another story. I have plenty of examples but I have a feeling that unless their are Youtubes to back them up...chin na in the street is all made up. haha



My opinion of this sort of argument is you are setting the bar too low. If I can do it on a trained person in a match, I can do it on the "bum" in the bar.

If my technique "only works" on the bum in the bar, well, what if he isn't a bum? I can tell you hundreds of stories about "bar fights" and such that ended up involving trained fighters.

You can go read Jon Blumming's accounts of bouncing in Holland and find out they ended up facing judo champions and kyokushinkai black belts




Oh wait, I forgot...People to try to use Martial Arts outside of the competition ring are just nobody so they don't count. :rolleyes:

straw men don't improve your point and do nothing to advance a discussion

[Frost]

Well - let's look beyond the basics at something like Chin-Na... I believe there's some good Chin-Na (and a lot of bad) but there's some good Chin-Na. It's not easy to learn, nor is it easy to apply - but it is effective.

How can something be not easy to learn or apply, but still be effective?

if its effective and efficent it will be passed on, people can see now what works and what does not, its no longer a case of blind faith it’s a case of testing and throwing away what doesn’t work and what does.

What do people think happened in the old days when the like of wong fai hung saw the effectiveness of the long arm Lama techniques and the iron wire system…did he ignore it because he didn’t want to lose some of the gungs and skills of the old school hung gar…or did he drop stuff so quickly it would make your head spin in favour of stuff that worked better?

If he and countless other masters did this back then why should people now be afraid to do the same?

[JamesC]

Ok, now I have to interject. For Terms, Chin Na is not just about Joint locking.

To Sieze and Hold such that you put your opponent in a controlling or weak position would be a better English definition but NOT JUST "JOINT LOCKING"

So technically speaking, an "Arm Drag" that leads to a throw or lock IS CHIN NA...Just as an example.

The Best way use China Na is to have or let your opponent GIVE you the energy or force and you need to borrow and then Lock him in that direction.

IF you could just walk up to a person and apply Chin Na against his will, then my friend....you are either the HULK or your opponent sucks so bad that you don't need training. Either way, Chin Na should never be forced.

China Na as "Joint Locking or as finishing moves" persay is more difficult in Sport competition because your opponent is very aware of you and will try to resist or counter you. That just means its a fight...and whos better will win.

BUT a BOUNCER in a bar, who has someone grab him and he has to throw the guy out or perhaps CONTROLL HIM. That is another story. I have plenty of examples but I have a feeling that unless their are Youtubes to back them up...chin na in the street is all made up. haha

Oh wait, I forgot...People to try to use Martial Arts outside of the competition ring are just nobody so they don't count. :rolleyes:

I use "China Na" in my job frequently(jailer). In fact, it's one of the only things I even bother to focus on.

[David Jamieson]

MMA and TCMA are not connected to the point where mma development has any effect on the multiple styles of TCMA. I don't think anything will be lost because of something go on over there.

Boxing has been around for a long time. Many TCMA-ists took it up and took it into their thing. Nothing was lost, quite a bit was gained.

There's plenty of room for more tcma in mma. So, if it's gonna go on, I"d like to see that.

[lkfmdc]

Whether you have been in WFH lineage Hung Ga, Jow Ga, Hung Fut or even CLF you have heard the same story

The old school Hung Fist had deep stances and was very powerful but had no mobility so it didn't work, so they all added more mobile footwork

They didn't sit still, holding onto something that didn't work, for the sake of "tradition"

[David Jamieson]

Whether you have been in WFH lineage Hung Ga, Jow Ga, Hung Fut or even CLF you have heard the same story

The old school Hung Fist had deep stances and was very powerful but had no mobility so it didn't work, so they all added more mobile footwork

They didn't sit still, holding onto something that didn't work, for the sake of "tradition"

In my experience we actually did both.
We did our sit in big square horse, hold, shift to bow, hold, shift to empty leg, hold, twist horse, hold and reverse. lol

But, when it came to sparring, all levels changed and footwork was payed more attention, keep up the hands, staying mobile and not moving in straight lines. More like boxing.

If sparring, it's time to get ON your high horse, not off it! lol

so yeah, the training is to get the most out of the body at the full range of motion extension. but when applied, the shapes are far more dynamic and mobile and not representative of the training shapes.

[Ray Pina]

and WHY would that have happened?

Because they didn't actually teach the real stuff?

Because they didn't actually have students?

Because they didn't actually show the students the correct way to train?

People that would become "good students", meaning, able to learn, use and transmit real skill, generally aren't interested in Kung Fu.... they may stop by for a while. But the curriculum doesn't hold their attention.

[lkfmdc]

People that would become "good students", meaning, able to learn, use and transmit real skill, generally aren't interested in Kung Fu.... they may stop by for a while. But the curriculum doesn't hold their attention.

Then there is something wrong with the curriculum, not the student

And if your teachings only seem to hold onto those who are NOT able to learn, NOT abut to us and NOT able to transmit, well, what does that say!

[SimonM]

I personally see value in retaining sword skills, but I'm an anachronist and a bit qiguai.

[lkfmdc]

I personally see value in retaining sword skills, but I'm an anachronist and a bit qiguai.

Hopology (or something of the sort) - the historical discipline of saving ancient fighting skills. As a trained historian, I can see saving it in that sense. But you do that by having the guy do his stuff (INCLUDING APPLICATIONS) on film, writing it up and putting it in a vault

[Ray Pina]

Well - let's look beyond the basics at something like Chin-Na... I believe there's some good Chin-Na (and a lot of bad) but there's some good Chin-Na. It's not easy to learn, nor is it easy to apply - but it is effective.


I've seen some good Chin Na.

This whole question has lead me to the belief that TCMA would be most effectively used as a specialized skill to pursue by someone already competent in the basics of standup and ground fighting.

Chin Na is a great example. I've seen some great controls by reversing a whole bunch of grips.... but when it really counts no one is just going to grab. They'll grab in conjunction with a strike.

How much time to learn these specializations and at what cost? Does one sacrifice being completely competent in all ranges to internal breathing? Monkey style?

In the end, it comes down to doing what one wants. It's awesome that we have so much readily available to us.

The problem is when breathing experts start commenting in areas outside of their expertise.

[Ray Pina]

Then there is something wrong with the curriculum, not the student

And if your teachings only seem to hold onto those who are NOT able to learn, NOT abut to us and NOT able to transmit, well, what does that say!

Kung Fu is for pu$$ies.

[lkfmdc]

Kung Fu is for pu$$ies.

NOW it is, how it got that way is a BIG QUESTION

[David Jamieson]

Hopology (or something of the sort) - the historical discipline of saving ancient fighting skills. As a trained historian, I can see saving it in that sense. But you do that by having the guy do his stuff (INCLUDING APPLICATIONS) on film, writing it up and putting it in a vault

There are still people who correctly practice medieval sword arts in full armor with full power and actually not bad form. I'd have to dig up a clip I found once. I was pretty impressed with their approach and seeable understanding of the weapon and it's use.

[lkfmdc]

There are still people who correctly practice medieval sword arts in full armor with full power and actually not bad form. I'd have to dig up a clip I found once. I was pretty impressed with their approach and seeable understanding of the weapon and it's use.

Actually, there is a debate about how correct what they do is.

There was no hopology before the modern era and pretty much as western combat art is no "recreated" or pieced back together by what sources we have left (mostly old fighting manuals). Most of these manuals are poorly drawn, have descriptions that leave much to the imagination, etc

The fact people are still interested in this is great, but it would be equally understandable if people just didn't find it interesting or relevant anymore

[David Jamieson]

Actually, there is a debate about how correct what they do is.

There was no hopology before the modern era and pretty much as western combat art is no "recreated" or pieced back together by what sources we have left (mostly old fighting manuals). Most of these manuals are poorly drawn, have descriptions that leave much to the imagination, etc

The fact people are still interested in this is great, but it would be equally understandable if people just didn't find it interesting or relevant anymore

yes, i would agree that some groups are merely self taught, larping and so on.

But Hoplology applies to all martial arts in fact and is not only a sword arts thing.

There are the various societies for creative anachronism.

I think what we find in museum circles or serious pursuits are quite fine.
I think the D&D larpers are goons that contribute nothing to understand and i think Fencing as sport keeps the sword arts alive in a real sense.

[JamesC]

yes, i would agree that some groups are merely self taught, larping and so on.

But Hoplology applies to all martial arts in fact and is not only a sword arts thing.

There are the various societies for creative anachronism.

I think what we find in museum circles or serious pursuits are quite fine.
I think the D&D larpers are goons that contribute nothing to understand and i think Fencing as sport keeps the sword arts alive in a real sense.

To me, the one thing that stands out about fencing is their reliance on lunges.

You don't see any sword circling and VERY little parrying or blocking. Mostly, they go in for the stab and they evade.

[lkfmdc]

yes, i would agree that some groups are merely self taught, larping and so on.



That is NOT what I said!

I said that due to the fact that the actual use of these things disappeared and no one preserved them, there is NO "unbroken line" of instruction in this stuff

ANYONE who does any sort of western martial arts (weapon, unarmed, combined, etc etc ANY) is doing it because they RECREATED IT

Thanks to the internet, you have easy access to tons of literature on this for free. You don't have to believe me, read up for yourself

Completely relevant to kung fu, the issue became that no one was using these arts for real and too many people who had fantasy ideas of what they were about molded the image of how these things were supposed to be

HUNDREDS of years later, they had no real idea what the truth was and had to go looking for it and hope they can recreate it

To me, that seems very relevant




i think Fencing as sport keeps the sword arts alive in a real sense.

Then you really don't know much about the modern sport of fencing, because it has NOTHING to do with how people actually fought in the West when it was for real

[Ray Pina]

NOW it is, how it got that way is a BIG QUESTION

Because people wanted to feel like/be like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan but they didn't want to look like/feel like Rocky fighting the big Russian dude.

It's funny actually. How Kung FU is supposed to be secretive/mysterious.... then you see pimply little ****s taking the train in full kung fu uniform with their fake weaponry in tow. Police don't even pay them any attention, carrying an 8 foot Kwan Do through the NY subway.

The boxer quietly walks by with his gym bag, ducks into a basement gym on the outskirts of town.

Kung Fu people like to talk. Talk theory. Talk history.

Fighters like to fight. So they focus on being good so they don't get beat up.

..... that's it in a nut shell.

[David Jamieson]

That is NOT what I said!

I said that due to the fact that the actual use of these things disappeared and no one preserved them, there is NO "unbroken line" of instruction in this stuff

ANYONE who does any sort of western martial arts (weapon, unarmed, combined, etc etc ANY) is doing it because they RECREATED IT

Thanks to the internet, you have easy access to tons of literature on this for free. You don't have to believe me, read up for yourself

Completely relevant to kung fu, the issue became that no one was using these arts for real and too many people who had fantasy ideas of what they were about molded the image of how these things were supposed to be

HUNDREDS of years later, they had no real idea what the truth was and had to go looking for it and hope they can recreate it

To me, that seems very relevant



Then you really don't know much about the modern sport of fencing, because it has NOTHING to do with how people actually fought in the West when it was for real

lol, Dave, you can get worked up over cheese toast I think. :p

I didn't disagree with you. I was stating my opinion and view.
I stand by it.
I trained fencing for years. I understand the difference between fencing and ancient bladed use and the dissimilarity. But, as sword arts go, it is fencing which widely keeps the sword arts alive today.

[lkfmdc]

"Execuse me, are you a trained fighter???? ...and if NOT don't even bother to mess with me, because by default i'm going to win" Silly and not practical.



Please try to stick to what I actually said.

I responded to your comment




China Na as "Joint Locking or as finishing moves" persay is more difficult in Sport competition because your opponent is very aware of you and will try to resist or counter you. That just means its a fight...and whos better will win.

BUT a BOUNCER in a bar, who has someone grab him and he has to throw the guy out or perhaps CONTROLL HIM.



Since you framed the argument as such I responded that in my opinion it is MUCH BETTER to rely on a technique that works on a skilled attacker who is resisting you (ie from what you call "sport")

Sure, bouncers get away with chin na or chin na like locks. Often because the people they are escorting out have no training

You appear to be saying that just because a bouncer can use this one it is a good technique

Again, I'd rather have the technique that works on a skilled attacker because you never know who you will be fighting

If you are a bouncer in a place like Iowa, Michigan or Ohio, you may very well find yourself trying to escort someone out who has YEARS of wrestling training.

If you are in France, you might be escorting out a guy with YEARS of judo training




Wow, in ROSS's world anyone who doesn't train or compete in Martial Arts is a bum?? Your town must suck. A bum with no fear is dangerous enough.



Clearly I didn't say that

In fact, I just said (a second time) the OPPOSITE

I said I'd prefer to rely upon technique tested time and time again on skilled opponents (in what you call "sport") precisely because you don't know who you are fighting




So Ross and his people could go to any B-Ballers court or Football field and whoop up on everyone. Simply because they're bums.

I'm impressed

AGAIN, why are you bothering to put words into my mouth that I never said?

My point was very clear, and I've explained it again here

So please address my point, not points no one was addressing

[lkfmdc]

lol, Dave, you can get worked up over cheese toast I think. :p



As I just said to subitai, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say and then argue those points

It's meaningless

Twice I've caught you doing that.

And if you do know anything about modern fencing you should know that it is more "tru2form" than it is "lei tai"

[Subitai]

Clearly you know everything...:)
You win Ross, I guess I have to suit up again and start smashing heads.



Please try to stick to what I actually said.

I responded to your comment



Since you framed the argument as such I responded that in my opinion it is MUCH BETTER to rely on a technique that works on a skilled attacker who is resisting you (ie from what you call "sport")

Sure, bouncers get away with chin na or chin na like locks. Often because the people they are escorting out have no training

You appear to be saying that just because a bouncer can use this one it is a good technique

Again, I'd rather have the technique that works on a skilled attacker because you never know who you will be fighting

If you are a bouncer in a place like Iowa, Michigan or Ohio, you may very well find yourself trying to escort someone out who has YEARS of wrestling training.

If you are in France, you might be escorting out a guy with YEARS of judo training



Clearly I didn't say that

In fact, I just said (a second time) the OPPOSITE

I said I'd prefer to rely upon technique tested time and time again on skilled opponents (in what you call "sport") precisely because you don't know who you are fighting



AGAIN, why are you bothering to put words into my mouth that I never said?

My point was very clear, and I've explained it again here

So please address my point, not points no one was addressing

[lkfmdc]

Clearly you know everything...:)
You win Ross, I get I have to suit up again and start smashing heads.

I responded to what you posted, then your response had nothing to do with what I said. Why should YOU be angry?

[David Jamieson]

As I just said to subitai, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say and then argue those points

It's meaningless

Twice I've caught you doing that.

And if you do know anything about modern fencing you should know that it is more "tru2form" than it is "lei tai"

Dude, you seriously need to check yourself before typing sometimes.
the universe doesn't revolve around you, many do not share your opinions and I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm typing stuff out in MY name as MY opinion.

really now, just settle down with the freaking drama guy. It get's out of hand too fast. Let's stay on topic instead.

Lemme tell you about modern fencing. It was ruined by the electronic scoring system which in turn altered the actual way that the sword was played. The sword is now played to the electronic scoring devices. so a lot of reach and tap instead of good strong clean thrusts or ripostes. You are correct in that it has gone downhill as far as purist swordplay goes.

However, taking it to mere sport designates it as anachronism as well. It exists though.

So, think of it as a constantly transformative process that ebbs and flows with time, interest and sometime necessity.

Everything ain't so black and white and there is no need to make attempts at diminshing other people's opinions or views in some attempt to bolster your own simply because you're convinced you're right.

You're only that in your own world man. If people wanna take it, they will, if they don't they won't.

simple. :)

[Subitai]

I responded to what you posted, then your response had nothing to do with what I said. Why should YOU be angry?


I'm not angry...see my smilies' :):):)
I've just come to the realization that we are at an impass.

That, I don't think I can keep up this posting....I kinda want to go Bass Fishing. :cool:

[lkfmdc]

Dude, you seriously need to check yourself before typing sometimes.



That is your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it



many do not share your opinions



Well, this IS sort of the point of a discussion forum

HOWEVER, if you disagree with me build a logical argument, provide evidence and explain your points

For example, which is the more logical line of thinking?

(1) a straight arm bar can be seen done against high level players, aware of the technique, how it works, and fully resisting it, in the OLYMPICS (I'm talking about judo now) - chances are it will work on anyone

OR

(2) Last night I got into an argument in a bar. I have NO IDEA the background of the person I was in a fight with, but I used "XYZ lock" on them and it worked. Therefore, that technique is perfectly valid and should work on everyone

Let's just stick to this, because a lack of logical argument building is one of the problems I believe happens here a lot

[lkfmdc]

I'm not angry...see my smilies' :):):)
I've just come to the realization that we are at an impass.

That, I don't think I can keep up this posting....I kinda want to go Bass Fishing. :cool:

I know you don't like my jokes, so I won't make one about fishing. If you go, good luck. Catch a big one

Try to re-read what I wrote, really, because I think you characterized my point as something I did NOT say

[Lebaufist]

I'd like to see an example of an xyz lock. Chin na in cma is not that complicated. You probably see the same things in today's fighting and not even know it.

The whole issue seemed to be over dramatized.

The Trained Fighter®™© should be able to use anything he wants.

[YouKnowWho]

Which legitimate TCMA skillz are in danger of being lost because of MMA?

Since single leg, double legs, pull guard, and jump guard are pretty much the only throws used in cage fight, the throwing art skill will be lost because MMA.

[lkfmdc]

Since single leg, double legs, pull guard, and jump guard are pretty much the only throws used in cage fight, the throwing art skill will be lost because MMA.

you seem to have forgotten inner hook, lower inner hook, ankle pick, knee seizing, sag throws, foot sweeps, hip throws, ****zers, high crotch, etc

but you're right, other than THOSE, the throwing is lost

[Pork Chop]

Whether you have been in WFH lineage Hung Ga, Jow Ga, Hung Fut or even CLF you have heard the same story

The old school Hung Fist had deep stances and was very powerful but had no mobility so it didn't work, so they all added more mobile footwork

They didn't sit still, holding onto something that didn't work, for the sake of "tradition"

I completely agree with your point; but your anecdote makes me curious.
For some reason I always thought all the old styles (esp hung fist) originally were much higher & more functional, but that the lower stances looked better for street performances.

[MasterKiller]

you seem to have forgotten inner hook, lower inner hook, ankle pick, knee seizing, sag throws, foot sweeps, hip throws, ****zers, high crotch, etc

but you're right, other than THOSE, the throwing is lost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ50D9sHRnM&feature=player_embedded

or 4:25 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNHFuNL0mc&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

My understanding of HK is that the stances and strikes were higher and shorter in "pre-WFH" HK.
I believe that Wing Lam states the same in His writings...

[lkfmdc]

My understanding of HK is that the stances and strikes were higher and shorter in "pre-WFH" HK.
I believe that Wing Lam states the same in His writings...

having done a continum of HK styles, the stances were NARROWER but very deep and the footwork was much more stationary

[sanjuro_ronin]

having done a continum of HK styles, the stances were NARROWER but very deep and the footwork was much more stationary

Ah, yes, I understand what you mean now and yes, quite correct in regards to the footwork.
You could have done a whole form in a small area.
The IW was basically stationary and even the tiger and crane covered what? maybe a 6 x 6 area?

[MasterKiller]

John will like the throw at the end of this fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AsqR0Aw210&feature=related

[David Jamieson]

having done a continum of HK styles, the stances were NARROWER but very deep and the footwork was much more stationary

I agree with this and interpret "more stationary" as step/plant/strike or face and pivot or shuffle

[YouKnowWho]

John will like the throw at the end of this fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AsqR0Aw210&feature=related

I do like that throw. Did someone say that "head lock" won't work?

[bawang]

I met an elderly gentleman in my wife's hometown who had amazing dadao skills.

He complained that his skills would die with him because of lack of interest in fighting arts in general.



then he is a fraud. da dao only has about 10 techniques total, how the hell can it be lost?

[Pork Chop]

having done a continum of HK styles, the stances were NARROWER but very deep and the footwork was much more stationary

sounds disgusting. :)

in certain kung fu styles you can see people shuffling forward and backward using mobile footwork, with a guard that actually provides some coverage, throwing techniques that have some body connection, but aren't so exaggerated that you can see them from a mile away. In otherwords, techniques you could actually see fighters using.
i guess maybe it's my own wishful thinking that at one time styles like these might have been the norm and not isolated incidents.
Then again, now that I think about it, I think I'm much happier with modern day boxing than mendoza's style of backfists and hammer fists.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sounds disgusting. :)

in certain kung fu styles you can see people shuffling forward and backward using mobile footwork, with a guard that actually provides some coverage, throwing techniques that have some body connection, but aren't so exaggerated that you can see them from a mile away. In otherwords, techniques you could actually see fighters using.
i guess maybe it's my own wishful thinking that at one time styles like these might have been the norm and not isolated incidents.
Then again, now that I think about it, I think I'm much happier with modern day boxing than mendoza's style of backfists and hammer fists.

Dude, footwork is not only style specific but environment specific.
Ancient forms were done with ancient environments in mind.
Fighting on concrete with running shoes and fighting on the sand barefooted are two very different things in terms of footwork.

[Pork Chop]

Dude, footwork is not only style specific but environment specific.
Ancient forms were done with ancient environments in mind.
Fighting on concrete with running shoes and fighting on the sand barefooted are two very different things in terms of footwork.

I'll grant the likelihood that i don't know everything about fighting on all different types of terrain, but i've worked out indoors and outdoors, with shoes and without shoes, on flat surfaces, bumpy hills, and sand... I've never found a reason to move around in a squat like someone taking a p00. Of course, pewping might be the scenario they're training for....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll grant the likelihood that i don't know everything about fighting on all different types of terrain, but i've worked out indoors and outdoors, with shoes and without shoes, on flat surfaces, bumpy hills, and sand... I've never found a reason to move around in a squat like someone taking a p00. Of course, pewping might be the scenario they're training for....

Hey, you never know ! LOL
It could happen.
But, low stances are simply more stable than higher ones.
Of course the perfect mix is one that is stable enough BUT also mobile enough.
Many of the low stances in forms were dealing with low attacks or could even by "transitonal" stances of a throw or what not.

[Pork Chop]

But, stable stances are simply more stable than higher ones.


there, fixed that for you.
too low is even worse than too high.

[Frost]

Since single leg, double legs, pull guard, and jump guard are pretty much the only throws used in cage fight, the throwing art skill will be lost because MMA.

lol have you ever actually seen an MMA fight? the clinch, body lock, suplex are all used as are hip throws trips and reaps :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

lol have you ever actually seen an MMA fight? the clinch, body lock, suplex are all used as are hip throws trips and reaps :rolleyes:

I think you may have missed my post regarding this already

[David Jamieson]

too low is even worse than too high.

totally agree. a lot of mobility is lot when low for long even if strong.

going low is to move down, take weight, throw, go under, but in context to application in fighting, it's not something you move in on level or sit in on level.
Takes too much energy.


Too high? You still have higher mobility regardless of what you may sacrifice to a shoot attempt or that ilk of techs.

in training to build strength and endurance, low is the way to go though. :)

[David Jamieson]

Since single leg, double legs, pull guard, and jump guard are pretty much the only throws used in cage fight, the throwing art skill will be lost because MMA.

I don't think throws will be lost. they are used often enough. Some real doozies too.

[Lebaufist]

Footwork, defense and counterstriking will be the next victims.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think throws will be lost. they are used often enough. Some real doozies too.

Since you won't get much credit for your throw, people won't train the following skills:

1. throw that end with perfect balance,
2. hit and run mobility,
3. switch from one throw to another throw,
4. perfect over head hard throw,
5. counters for throw,
6. resistence for throw,
7. one against many,

You get "ground skill" but you will lose the above 7 skills in the long run.

For example, since the "pull guard" is much easier to train than the "leg lift", The most beautiful throw (also the most difficult to defense against) such as "leg lift" may be disappear from the future generation.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7585/changleglifting.jpg

[bawang]

the skill of milking a student for years will be forever lost

such a tradegy

[Ray Pina]

These are ridiculous claims. All of these skills are alive and well in the competitive judo, BJJ, and MMA circuit.

As for one against many.... TCMA should focus on establishing credibility on the 1 vs 1 level. Never mind one vs many. That's like worrying about driving on the freeway at 80mph on three wheels because one fell off..... it's a bad situation. Nothing will prepare you for it but how you deal with it will depend on your cumulative driving skill, experience and ability to act under pressure.

If anything, MMA has assured that we still have credible, extremely functionable empty handed methods.

What's the alternative? Tapped rings at the Ramada Inn for Forms 2 Form sparring?

[Pork Chop]

in training to build strength and endurance, low is the way to go though. :)

I don't mind momentary dips in stance for a particular technique - even stuff like iron broom; and especially stuff that's takedown related & reliant on dropping your hips.
I don't mind doing squats - I love deep squats.
I don't mind stable stances either - some knee bend, like a boxer with weight on the front leg.
It's just when I hold a deep knee bend with weight for a long time, my knees really give me problems.
So martial arts where you spend all your time in low stances are kind of out for me.

[PalmStriker]

the skill of milking a student for years will be forever lost

such a tradegy Milking a group of students for many years will keep this tradition alive. If they don't keep showing up, have other students belittle them. This I've seen. "Oh, you are no longer a Black Belt because you do not show up here." :)

[YouKnowWho]

These are ridiculous claims. All of these skills are alive and well in the competitive judo, BJJ, and MMA circuit.

Many BJJ guys also trained in one of my student's school to enhance their throwing skill. During the throwing skill training, my student found out that their "rooting (resist against throwing ability)" were very weak. After talked to them, my student then found out that they had no intention to resist against throwing. Their reason were, "Why should I resist against throwing? Ground is the place that I love to be there." It will take them much longer time to develop their "body vibration" ability to resist against throwing. On the other hand, those students who had no ground skill, they would fight as hard as they could not to go down.

Trying to rape a virgin is very difficult. Trying to rape a prostitute is much easier. If you are good in ground game, you may just lay down on the ground and wait for your opponent to come down and play your game. You don't want to resist against throwing and the reason is understandable.

Under the MMA rules, I just don't see anybody want to train skill like this in the future generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs

[blackjesus]

more like "Which legitimate TCMA skillz are in danger of being lost because of fire arms, pepper spray and taser"

Now I lose interested in learning weapon apart form straight sword coz it is totally sick.

[YouKnowWho]

As for one against many.... TCMA should focus on establishing credibility on the 1 vs 1 level. Never mind one vs many.
IMO, the

- 3 persons sparring that anybody can fight against anybody.
- to dodge rocks throwing when stand in a pre-defined circle.
- Take your opponent down and start to attack others (or just take off before the cops arrive).
- ...

are all valuable combat skills to have. Whether those kind of training can be preserved for the future generation (because the MMA ruleset) is something that we should all have concern.

[Frost]

I think you may have missed my post regarding this already

i did sorry :confused: should really read to the end of a thread before commentating :o

[lkfmdc]

Since you won't get much credit for your throw, people won't train the following skills:

1. throw that end with perfect balance,
2. hit and run mobility,
3. switch from one throw to another throw,
4. perfect over head hard throw,
5. counters for throw,
6. resistence for throw,
7. one against many,



In modern MMA, getting a throw or takedown often means winning the round. The level of wrestling in modern MMA is MUCH HIGHER than even a few years ago

Watch more recent stuff John




For example, since the "pull guard" is much easier to train than the "leg lift",



I can't remember the last time anyone successfully pulled guard in MMA. I can also tell you that these days only guys who are getting killed even try it and they usually get crushed

[Frost]

In modern MMA, getting a throw or takedown often means winning the round. The level of wrestling in modern MMA is MUCH HIGHER than even a few years ago

Watch more recent stuff John



I can't remember the last time anyone successfully pulled guard in MMA. I can also tell you that these days only guys who are getting killed even try it and they usually get crushed

true, i know YKW is a skilled chinese wrestler but he does seem to have blinkers on when it comes to MMA, i know from first hand expereince how far wrestling in MMA in the UK has come along in the last decade...its growing all the time

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only things that get " left behind" are those that people STOP using because they don't work as well as something else.
full contact ALWAYS leads to evolution in MA, simply because no one likes getting their ass whipped and will find ways to do the ass whipping.

In the past, distant past, being in anyone guard was trouble and usually meant a grappling match, well, that changed quickly with the more "typical" response being striking nowadays ( striking done the right way of course).
Striking became the answer to the guard, not only to end it by striking but to set up grappling counters while in the guard.

From what I gather, 1 year in a good MMA gym will equip almost anyone with the tolls to deal with virtually ANY empty handed one-on-one situation, in any range.

[Ray Pina]

Many BJJ guys also trained in one of my student's school to enhance their throwing skill. During the throwing skill training, my student found out that their "rooting (resist against throwing ability)" were very weak. After talked to them, my student then found out that they had no intention to resist against throwing. Their reason were, "Why should I resist against throwing? Ground is the place that I love to be there." It will take them much longer time to develop their "body vibration" ability to resist against throwing. On the other hand, those students who had no ground skill, they would fight as hard as they could not to go down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KK4gBstnYs

Well, I think it erroneous to judge BJJ by a handful of guys who supplemented their training with one of your students. I've trained and retain friends at Renzo Gracie's which has thousands of students, I train and compete with the top MMA, BJJ clubs in Puerto Rico.... I personally don't know of one person who has gone to TCMA to supplement anything, particularly their throws our ground work. If anything, the serious find us.

With that said, your point sums up the attitude of MMA.... which is the goal striven for my all martial arts. And particularly expounded by internal: don't resist.

Of course you defend the throw. But you don't over defend it to the point you get suplexed, or worse, lose complete control and get thrown even worse. You defend the strikes. But you don't insist on doing so and cover up and take a beating.... you change levels and shoot.

You can insist on blocking every kick. Holding your ground.... see how long that lasts.

I know it upsets TCMAers. But to make comments that somehow it is enlightening MMAers with throws and unorthadox attacks.... it's simply baseless. There are open venues to support those claims. And so far TCMA is not even on the radar. When was the last time a pure TCMA won a grapplers quest? Or a Judo open? Never mind MMA, when was the last time a pure TCMA even won a San Da event?

This keeps coming up over and over again here. Instead of resisting it, why don't one of your student teachers go win a local BJJ or Judo event, post the video and that's the end of it. Don't even have to win. Go and look better than that internal urban teacher did in the ring, quitting after round 1.

[Ray Pina]

PS

I would love to see this "body vibration" skill used in your next local Grapplers Quest or BJJ contest. Have someone show us how it works live. Not a two second Kung FU movie video clip.

This is the problem that I have with TCMA: Flashy names. Huge claims. No proof.

When posting, I always try to keep in mind: would I say this if I was in a matted gym with all these people?

[Lebaufist]

pure TCMA®™© I'm trade copyrighting registering this one.

What is this ultimately supposed to look like/expected to do? Are we going around the may pole again with another true2form distinction fallacy? A form is a condensed set of clean ideal movement. It gets dirty when thrown into chaos.

Kung fu is step block punch kick like anything else. I think its a pointless effort. Striking in MMA has greatly improved. I don't see why its so hard to see these guys having lower bases of gravity and mobility as not being so dissimilar.

[Howard]

MMA is a nice sport.

We have had many nice sports Wrestling, Boxing, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Sports Karate, Modern Wushu, Kickboxing and MMA amongst so many examples.

With MMA, Nothing lost but a reminder that the practice of fitness and fundamentals is still important...as per the old saying " practice techniques without developing skill/strength is in vain in old age" and quality over quantity ....

[IronFist]

Techniques in danger of being lost:

The techniques that leave the arm extended after a punch.

5-hit combos that you perform on your opponent while is arm his extended after a punch.

[Ray Pina]

I'm trade copyrighting registering this one.

What is this ultimately supposed to look like/expected to do?

Good question.

The stuff that generally considered "Kung Fu" (Crane, snake, tiger, monkey, Shaolin, mantis, taiji, "internal") is not represented in any of the major international fighting venues. We haven't seen it other than in its form format. Like the Treu2Form.The way its stylists portray it.

What is it expected to do? Make money for the industry that lives off perpetuating these ideas.




Kung fu is step block punch kick like anything else.

If this is true, why can't it compete with other "step block punch kick" styles?

[YouKnowWho]

I would love to see this "body vibration" skill used in your next local Grapplers Quest or BJJ contest.
Ask your opponent to get a head lock on you. When you are behind him with your belly touches his hip, "without using your arms" but just use your belly, you try to bounce your opponent's body with both of his feet point directly to the sky. When you can do that, you can then judge for yourself whether this skill is useful or not.

IMO, the "embrace" is the most brute throw because when your body is lifted in the air, there is no counters. A beginner will use his arms strength. A more advance person will use his belly - body vibration force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05U4RWiPW0w

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ray,
sometimes the biggest block between MMA and TCMA is terminology.
And what John just described to answer your question is a prime example.

Not too long ago I had to explain to a MMA guy that Iron Palm didn't mean I hit piece IRON OR that I thought my hand was like Iron or that I thought I could punch THROUGH iron and that it is simply a form of hand "forging".

Terminology can be the issue sometimes.

[Dragonzbane76]

Terminology can be the issue sometimes.

I believe this is the biggest wall between modern and traditional myself. Most times you find things in any art that cross over to another art and have a different name. Most arts have the baseline with weird a$$ names attached.

[TenTigers]

Good question.

The stuff that generally considered "Kung Fu" (Crane, snake, tiger, monkey, Shaolin, mantis, taiji, "internal") is not represented in any of the major international fighting venues. We haven't seen it other than in its form format. Like the Treu2Form.The way its stylists portray it.

What is it expected to do? Make money for the industry that lives off perpetuating these ideas.





If this is true, why can't it compete with other "step block punch kick" styles?

you need to understand this before it becomes part of your belief system; true2form is that one, crappy, wannabe Hung-Ga guy's idea, and certainly not what most TCMA people believe to be applied technique.

[Ray Pina]

I understand terminology can cloud the waters. But do we really think that is the biggest barrier between TCMA and modern fight science? There's guys selling DVDs of hanging weights from their balls? The biggest names .... no fights. Etc. Etc. Chi blasts. Etc. Etc. Fake Shoalin monks posing on top of Pagodas (tombs) Etc. Etc.

Yes, True2Form is one venue. I'm aware of that.

I'm also aware of all the other nonsense, which I can define if need be.

[bawang]

theres nothing wrong with hanging weights from your penus. it makes it big like lexington steel.

[Pork Chop]

I gotta wonder how much longer ripping/clawing type of attacks are going to stick around.
Aside from the fact that they need a ton of training to actually make work; does anybody actually want to run around scratching people anymore?

Even the Yees attribute to Hung Hei Gun, the founder of Hung Ga & a tiger style specialist, the killing of a guy with a single punch - not a claw....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I gotta wonder how much longer ripping/clawing type of attacks are going to stick around.
Aside from the fact that they need a ton of training to actually make work; does anybody actually want to run around scratching people anymore?

Even the Yees attribute to Hung Hei Gun, the founder of Hung Ga & a tiger style specialist, the killing of a guy with a single punch - not a claw....

I know a friend of mine that is THE tiger claw guy.
Why?
Because he has freakishly strong grip, the guy can bend wrenches and fold frying pans !
Tiger claw was made for him.
Personally I believe that many systems were developed by "freaks" like him, guys that are naturally predisposed to certain techniques.
if Marciano had gone into Hung Kuen instead of boxing, he would have been the perfect example of "one punch kill".

[Ray Pina]

if Marciano had gone into Hung Kuen instead of boxing, he would have been the perfect example of "one punch kill".

Marciano was the man. And utilized "untraditional" illegal boxing strikes like hammer blows.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Marciano was the man. And utilized "untraditional" illegal boxing strikes like hammer blows.

Guys like him and Tyson were the ones that "one punch one kill" was "named after".

Imagine this, if you will:
1800's China and a Asian Mike Tyson develops his brand of MA.
Here is a guy that has natural KO power in both hands.
He is naturaly strong and fast and aggressive.
What will his kung fu look like? how will he pass it on?
How many of his students will be "like him"?
See my point?

[Pork Chop]

Marciano was the man. And utilized "untraditional" illegal boxing strikes like hammer blows.

There's this one, awesome book of still photos from boxing matches.
I can't remember the name of it, and I'm kicking myself daily for not picking it up.
It had a whole section of pictures of fighters fighting dirty - like Ali palming & hitting the back of the head, as well as Tyson & Marciano "accidentally" missing with their hooks & landing full force elbows.

[TenTigers]

Wong Yun-Lum was the Prince Naseem of his day. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's this one, awesome book of still photos from boxing matches.
I can't remember the name of it, and I'm kicking myself daily for not picking it up.
It had a whole section of pictures of fighters fighting dirty - like Ali palming & hitting the back of the head, as well as Tyson & Marciano "accidentally" missing with their hooks & landing full force elbows.

"Dirty boxing", what is now called "clinch boxing", is very, very effective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wong Yun-Lum was the Prince Naseem of his day. :cool:

Overrated and flashy?
;)

[Dragonzbane76]

"Dirty boxing", what is now called "clinch boxing", is very, very effective

I've seen it used very effectively up close. :p

watch some of coutures fights he uses it pretty well.