Teacher/Self-Taught?

[JamesC]

One of the other threads got me thinking about this.

Let's say that you have someone who learns a Yang Taijiquan form from a local teacher and they only have limited experience with applications and push hands.

So, the student decides to, using what he's already learned, try and teach himself basic throws, takedowns, and chin-na(from video, books, or whatever) that he can use for a more complete grappling(tui shou) system. And, let's say the guy has previous experience and decides to take some of the striking from the form and drill it.

Would you be comfortable learning from this person?

Just a hypothetical.

[Lucas]

How many times do they fight to test, and how successful were they

[Subitai]

If you had other (Better) options to study with then I say NO. IMO.


But say you lived someplace with no other choice...then go for it until things change in your life to learn from someone better.


In martial arts, I say... "Whatever gets you there man". Just so long as you never stop learning and better yourself.

"O"

[JamesC]

How many times do they fight to test, and how successful were they

You're making me think too much Lucas! I used up all of my available brain cells just making the first post! :(

I dunno. Like Subitai said, perhaps there were no other options and the guy researched this stuff to use on a regular basis with training partners(say, a couple times a week).

He's testing it out, it's working, but most of it is self-taught, no? Or is it since he learned the structure, footwork, breathing, etc from his teacher and just added to it?

[Lucas]

structure is huge. if you have a good understanding you can work a lot out, provided you have the right mindset and someone to work with. i mean you cant get grappling down unless you have at least a guinea pig to really pressure test with, imo.

[David Jamieson]

I'd agree with "O"'s position.
If there is a better option, no.
If nothing else, it's better than nothing else. :)

[Lucas]

If nothing else, it's better than nothing else. :)

this is very true, but i would still approach the local high school wrestling coach for private lessons first. :p

[hskwarrior]

yeah if this guy is all thats available someone may learn from him. i've see this too before. I've actually seen a martial art teacher steal from other styles and infuse it with their own. in this case Escrima. Many other people including myself noticed this guy demo'ing CLF, WC, Capoeira, and tai chi and we all called him on it. he denied it and claimed it was filipino martial arts. then i saw him use a trademark move within my lineage and i confronted him. he admitted that someone from my lineage defeated his teacher and they kept the moves he used.

that explained the riddle he told me: if you have two moves, i have two moves. If you have 10,000 moves, I have 10,000 moves. it took me a good minute to realize what he was trying to say. he was implying that whether you use 2 or 10,000 moves they will steal it and claim it as their own.

[JamesC]

If you had other (Better) options to study with then I say NO. IMO.


But say you lived someplace with no other choice...then go for it until things change in your life to learn from someone better.


In martial arts, I say... "Whatever gets you there man". Just so long as you never stop learning and better yourself.

"O"

Well, this brings up another question too.

Is it okay for this person to teach the applications he's taught himself in a public forum?

Just thinking out loud really, since this seems to be kind of a gray area. I highly suspect there are a lot of teachers that do this anyway and just don't tell it.

[David Jamieson]

The mediocre borrow, the great steal. :)

why not steal someone else stuff if it works? :D

[Lucas]

if it works it works.

[hskwarrior]

why not steal someone else stuff if it works?

could this be part of the reason the old chinese did not want non chinese to learn their stuff? LOL:D

[David Jamieson]

could this be part of the reason the old chinese did not want non chinese to learn their stuff? LOL:D

I think one of the problems they had with it as well was that there was all these comparably huge foreigners who could kick ass without any secret ancient stuff.

:p

[hskwarrior]

I think one of the problems they had with it as well was that there was all these comparably huge foreigners who could kick ass without any secret ancient stuff.

exacly. From what i understand was Lau Bun was wicked with his personal usage of CLF. he understood that to beat the bigger americans he couldn't waste time with what didn't work. and in those days, they'd kill you with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We are all "self-taught" to a certain extent.
It is US that have to walk the walk, not our teachers.
The best teachers are those who's students reach their goals and say, " I did this".
Teachers are crucial in the development phase but some can actually be a hinderance in the "experience" and "perfection" phase, even more so if they are not very good "advanced" teachers.
I like those teachers that lead us to the answer but that WE GET there "ourselves".
The lesson gets engrained far better that way IMO.

[hskwarrior]

We are all "self-taught" to a certain extent.

That is part of the path we travel and where we come to own out stuff.


I like those teachers that lead us to the answer but that WE GET there "ourselves".

This was my sifu. I totally agree with this.

[David Jamieson]

We are all "self-taught" to a certain extent.
It is US that have to walk the walk, not our teachers.
The best teachers are those who's students reach their goals and say, " I did this".
Teachers are crucial in the development phase but some can actually be a hinderance in the "experience" and "perfection" phase, even more so if they are not very good "advanced" teachers.
I like those teachers that lead us to the answer but that WE GET there "ourselves".
The lesson gets engrained far better that way IMO.

It was Aristotle who said: "That which we are taught, we learn by doing".

So, you've self taught yourself some Aristotelian philosophy! Good job bro! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was Aristotle who said: "That which we are taught, we learn by doing".

So, you've self taught yourself some Aristotelian philosophy! Good job bro! :D

I prefer Play-do, the silly putty not the philosopher.

[David Jamieson]

I prefer Play-do, the silly putty not the philosopher.

well, S.P.A were reiterative, so Plato is equally acceptable...being Aristotle's tutor and all... :)

Play-dough is useful for lifting text from pages of philosophy books. Good preference! lol

[SPJ]

One of the other threads got me thinking about this.

Let's say that you have someone who learns a Yang Taijiquan form from a local teacher and they only have limited experience with applications and push hands.

So, the student decides to, using what he's already learned, try and teach himself basic throws, takedowns, and chin-na(from video, books, or whatever) that he can use for a more complete grappling(tui shou) system. And, let's say the guy has previous experience and decides to take some of the striking from the form and drill it.

Would you be comfortable learning from this person?

Just a hypothetical.

acknowledge where things are from

1. from yang tai ji

2. from throwing or shuai jiao

3. from qin na

so the students know what and where they are learning from

---

[David Jamieson]

acknowledge where things are from

1. from yang tai ji

2. from throwing or shuai jiao

3. from qin na

so the students know what and where they are learning from

---

or

1. from my crazy Uncle Rob, he was special forces

2. from Jimmy's basement session

3. from ufc 78

4. from that youtube clip I showed you last week

:D

Yes, credit where credit is due and, if you are going to give credit, then you should understand the credit and why you are giving it as well.

[bawang]

i learned from taoverse deity

[sanjuro_ronin]

i learned from taoverse deity

Remind him that he owes me 5 bucks !

[lance]

One of the other threads got me thinking about this.

Let's say that you have someone who learns a Yang Taijiquan form from a local teacher and they only have limited experience with applications and push hands.

So, the student decides to, using what he's already learned, try and teach himself basic throws, takedowns, and chin-na(from video, books, or whatever) that he can use for a more complete grappling(tui shou) system. And, let's say the guy has previous experience and decides to take some of the striking from the form and drill it.

Would you be comfortable learning from this person?

Just a hypothetical.

JamesC , I would ' nt learn from that local teacher , I would ask that local teacher if I really can test his tai chi skills out first and ask him questions about who he learned from and where the teacher himself came from , so that you can tell if
he ' s for real or a fake . To me if that tai chi teacher was very experienced with his own art , then he would ' nt mind answering all your questions , besides he should be having a very strong foundation such as stances and be able to push his students off balance when doing push hands , and really show you the mechanics of how to apply the applications or usages in various ways . And if you train with the local teacher and you can ' t even push or shove him off position , then he ' s good , otherwise if you can shove or push the teacher off position , then he ' s really no good .

So that ' s why for those sifus who are very inexperienced should think twice before going out and teach on their own why ? Because they ' ll not know if the next person they meet is a very experienced tai chi sifu or not , instead the
inexperience will make ass out of the experience sifus out there .

[pateticorecords]

I believe it to be based on their skills and execution.

Most of us have met very good martial artist with a solid foundation in a particular art that go on to incorporate movements they have learned along the way (be it by video, books, seminars, work shops, etc) and teach them to others.

We also have met those instructors that have been learning and teaching for a very long time based on a more traditional curriculum that are not able to perform what they teach.

We all learn on our own, our instructors only guide us on the path... but in order for it to work we need to test what we do, refine it, re-test it, refine it, modify it, change it, test it again...

I think all traditional skills (EG. Qin Na, pressure points, fists variations, kick variations, weapon training, etc) are of use but they are only to supplement the core of your basic combative skills. Your brain will trigger the mechanism at the right time and you will be able to use it:)

[SPJ]

teachers only teaches you the basic or the core sytem of a style

the rest is up to you.

to practice, adopt and adapt,

--

as the saying goes

the teacher only guides you thru to door/entering

how well you take your learning is entirely up to you.

shi fu ling jin men

xiu xing zhai ge ren.

etc etc.

:)

[Taixuquan99]

If the qualified local teachers use unqualified inexperienced 22-30 year olds as student-teachers that will be teaching you most of the time, you're better off with the self-taught guy until you find someone you want to train with, especially if he's honest.

[rett]

Is it okay for this person to teach the applications he's taught himself in a public forum?

As long as he's honest about it.