Discussions (Sharing) about White Crane

[Minghequan]

Hello,

I have started this threrad in the sincere hope that we can come together to share and discuss our various views about White Crane in all it's forms.

This thread is not about who has the superior knowledge but for those wanting to share in the actual discussion of the art of White Crane.

It is about the art, not personalities.

As such I extend an invitation to Hendrik (and others) to join in and share of his views, opinions and resources on this matter.

Lets start at the beginning ..........

[Hendrik]

Thanks.

I let you all discuss and I enjoy your contribution.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

Why is it when you are given the opportunity to express yourself, your views and the sources from which you obtained same you clam up and refuse to share?

Is it because you don't really know what your talking about except to sprout a few lines here and there, post a bit of googled Hanzhi and act like a bad fortune cookie?

Why do you refuse to cite the sources for the stuff you post?

I am starting to get the impression that your really not all that involved as you try to paint yourself as being.

if your not going to contribute to what is an actual Martial Arts Discussion (Yes Discussion!) Forum then please desist from posting at all.

[yat_chum]

Hello Ron, why don't you share some of your views to get the ball rolling?

[Mulong]

If I may say Ron, Hendrik has shown that he isn’t able to be open with others on this forum; for example, by not being considerate of other who don’t read Chinese ideograms is a big no-no, especially this is an English speaking forum.

His view point is askew when comes to other styles and when ask to clarify his opinion he starts to quote things in Chinese ideograms and doesn’t give his honest opinion and have a simply dialogue.

In closing, don’t empower his arrogances…

[yat_chum]

Attacking people is not the best way to promote open discussion.

[Minghequan]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2650/konglee.jpg

Just had it confirmed by Master Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing school in Fuzhou that he has agreed to be the Official Technical Master / Advisor to my school the White Crane Research Institute Inc and our Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu!

[Howard]

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2650/konglee.jpg

Just had it confirmed by Master Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing school in Fuzhou that he has agreed to be the Official Technical Master / Advisor to my school the White Crane Research Institute Inc and our Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu!

And that means what?

[bawang]

it means he has the endorsement of a mainland traditional kung fu teacher, which means he is a somebody.

[Howard]

Zhangzhou Jueyuan Tang in Fuzhou? ..was going to ask for autograph but......Li Gang (李刚) is from Hong Kong...at least can study the ladies boxing set ，姑娘拳....

[Minghequan]

Howard,


And that means what?

Not all that much unless you are within my school. Still, for us it's something we can be proud of and we can look to Lee Kong Shifu for guidance, advice and technical information ... ours is an on-going journey of discovery so in that sense it's important to us.


Zhangzhou Jueyuan Tang in Fuzhou? ..was going to ask for autograph but......Li Gang (李刚) is from Hong Kong...at least can study the ladies boxing set ，姑娘拳....

My bad. You are right, He 師父 is currently in Hong Kong but was originally from Quanzhou, Fujian, China.

李刚 is also pronounced as Lee Kong.

You are interested in Gū​niang Quan?

[Minghequan]

Bawang:

it means he has the endorsement of a mainland traditional kung fu teacher, which means he is a somebody.

Afraid not mate. I am a "seeker" nothing more. I'm a nobody and happy at being just that!:)

[Howard]

You are interested in Gū​niang Quan?

No. 玄女拳 is enough :-)

[Minghequan]

Okay so youer interested in Mysterious/black Female archaic variant of boxing.

Hey whatever gets you there man!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Attacking people is not the best way to promote open discussion.

I was curious about that too. A long speech about this being a discussion and not about personalities, then an immediate attack, followed by another attack. So much for open dialog. This is typical of this forum and it's members. Some just can't seem to pass up a chance to get their say in. Oh well.

[Minghequan]

Not trying to attack anyone.

The bit about Hendrik arises from another thread in which he made some Hanzi quotes and quotes he claimed came from other sources but then would not supply actual sources for same even following many requests ... very frustrating and not at all contributing towards the actual discussions!

[yat_chum]

Can someone please explain what separates the white crane of Fuzhou from the other Fukienese cranes?

[Minghequan]

With my very, very limited knowledge it seems to me that Fukien arts (Crane, Ngo Cho Kun etc) are much harder in appearance and energy than that arising from Fuzhou.

To me, what I have seen of the Fukien stuff is far to external and lacking in Rou Jin and Soong. It's just how it makes me "feel" about it.

One can see a lot of upper body strength being used. The tension and muscular contraction in the upper body cause stiffness and hardness to set in. The moment this happens, the rooting effect of the foot disappears or is lost. Thus, when two person trains at the single hand push, each one tries to win by deploying more strength - muscular contraction. With such concepts, how could the White Crane be soft subtle and powerful. Muscular strength disappears with aged or reduce greatly with age. Whereas Jin or internal power increases with age. I know of White Crane teachers who were very strong during their first 30 years of training, but, the moment they turn 50 odd and more, muscular degeneration sets in. This is an inevitable fact.

Another simple comparison: when you look at the abundance of Youtube of so many "White Crane" guys teaching the art, some are so hard that it looks mechanical. Exertion with the physical muscular strength is more common. Fang Qiniang was a lady so common sense would tell us that if she were required to engage in combat, how is it possible to use muscular strength to counter the brute strength of a full grown male. Very unlikely, so there must be something more to the art, other than angles, alignment and speed, all of which deteriorates through time.

Xie Zhong Xiang was slowly softening the Crane's form into a higher level. This was not to say that the crane was hard in the beginning, it was soft, but Xie being a Taoist wanted it even more softer. Our White Crane is getting softer and more fluid which is what the old masters always intended.

But then, I only know very little.

[Hendrik]

With my very, very limited knowledge it seems to me that Fukien arts (Crane, Ngo Cho Kun etc) are much harder in appearance and energy than that arising from Fuzhou.

To me, what I have seen of the Fukien stuff is far to external and lacking in Rou Jin and Soong. It's just how it makes me "feel" about it.

One can see a lot of upper body strength being used. The tension and muscular contraction in the upper body cause stiffness and hardness to set in. The moment this happens, the rooting effect of the foot disappears or is lost. Thus, when two person trains at the single hand push, each one tries to win by deploying more strength - muscular contraction. With such concepts, how could the White Crane be soft subtle and powerful. Muscular strength disappears with aged or reduce greatly with age. Whereas Jin or internal power increases with age. I know of White Crane teachers who were very strong during their first 30 years of training, but, the moment they turn 50 odd and more, muscular degeneration sets in. This is an inevitable fact.

Another simple comparison: when you look at the abundance of Youtube of so many "White Crane" guys teaching the art, some are so hard that it looks mechanical. Exertion with the physical muscular strength is more common. Fang Qiniang was a lady so common sense would tell us that if she were required to engage in combat, how is it possible to use muscular strength to counter the brute strength of a full grown male. Very unlikely, so there must be something more to the art, other than angles, alignment and speed, all of which deteriorates through time.

Xie Zhong Xiang was slowly softening the Crane's form into a higher level. This was not to say that the crane was hard in the beginning, it was soft, but Xie being a Taoist wanted it even more softer. Our White Crane is getting softer and more fluid which is what the old masters always intended.

But then, I only know very little.



where is the evidence Xie Zhong Xiang is a Taoist?
and not he is just inherit from his teacher?

what is the concept of Taoist is in the White Crane of Xie?




Perhaps, you are biasly influence by your own ideas of soft and missed what is white crane as it is.

[Minghequan]

Direct transmission.

Hendrick,

I ask you some questions and I look forward to your direct reply:

1/. Do you train in White Crane?

2/. Who have you trained with directly in White Crane?

[Hendrik]

Direct transmission.

Hendrick,

I ask you some questions and I look forward to your direct reply:

1/. Do you train in White Crane?

2/. Who have you trained with directly in White Crane?



Could you please answer my technical questions above for discussion ? or you are not interested in friendly equal position technical discussion? your choice.

[Minghequan]

Please re-read my post. it clearly stated direct transmission!

This is from Xie Zhong Xiang to his student Huang Xin Xian to Xie Mu Tai and then onwards to my co-founder Kein-Chong Lau. It is simply put the views passed down via their direct learning experiences of that line.

Xie Zhong Xiang one of the progenitors of White Crane Gongfu was slowly softening the cranes form into a higher level. This was not to say that the crane was hard in the beginning, it was soft, but Xie Zhong Xiang being a Taoist wanted it even more softer. Muscular strength disappears with age or reduces greatly with age. Whereas Jin or internal power increase with age. Look at the available footage (Youtube etc) of so many White Crane folks teaching the art, some are so hard that it looks mechanical. The originator of White Crane Gongfu in all it’s forms Fang Qiniang was a lady, so common sense tells us that if a grand lady such as this were to be involved in combat, how is it possible to use muscular strength to counter the brute strength of a full grown male. Very unlikely, so there must be something more to the art, other than angles, alignment and speed, all of which deteriorates through time.

Within the personal White Crane Manual/Text which was passed to Grandmaster Huang Xin Xian through Xie Zhong Xian, the first page masterfully written in Hanzi contained the following precept:

"Soong Soong Soon, Xin Xin Xin"

Loosely translated as:

"Relax Relax Relax, Mind Mind Mind"

This refers to (deep) Mind rather than the 'superficial' Mind. Deep Mind can be understood as the true self, a state where there is internal calm not generated by everyday thought or the superficial Mind. It is this Deep Mind that one should arrive at before one does the Form and Drills.

Soong is equally hard to comprehend, Relax and yet connected, loose and yet agile and light. These were the original concepts, the “Deep Mind” that the founder and progenitors held true as the essence of White Crane Gongfu.

Sadly, rather than focus upon the development of Soong and Xin, far too many Crane Stylists have taken the road of that which is hard, external in both expression and form. Why? Perhaps to make the art more appealing, dynamic in it’s view to others, perhaps even more “marketable” as few want to spend the time to truly come to grips with the internal essence of the art.

It is this internal essence which should be sought out and cultivated as it is the way forward ... A small part is due to the techniques which include the angles and kinetics and such. The larger part is due to the (deep) Mind.

One of the most influential of all of the past masters of White Crane Gongfu, Grandmaster Huang Xin Xian is reported to have often said that “Progress is likened to grilling a sweet potato, fast would surely burn the out and make it black, but the inside is still hard and raw! A slow fire over a long period of time would be perfect, the outside is NOT burned and the inside soft and well cooked”. Many, many White Crane practitioners can do the form, but, when it comes to internal generation of power and softness - some leave alot to be desired.

“Using the Crane as the boxing form, imitating its external appearance and appropriating its inner essence, merging form with spirit”.

You may also like to visit my web site: http://www.whitecranegonfu.com

It may answer some of your questions.

Now having gone someway to answering your question please answer mine:

Hendrik,

1/. Do you train in White Crane?

2/. Who have you trained with directly in White Crane?

3/. What are your experiences/sources of White Crane?

Hendrik,

Could you please answer my questions above for discussion? Or you are not interested in friendly equal position discussion? Your choice!

[Hendrik]

I train in ancient 1850 version of yik kam wing Chun directly via cho family which is related and has elements of ancient white crane. Classical writing is my source .

Do you have evident to show Gm Xie ru ru is a daoist?

[Minghequan]

Yesterday 08:07 PM
Hendrik

I train in ancient 1850 version of yik kam wing Chun directly via cho family which is related and has elements of ancient white crane. Classical writing is my source .

Do you have evident to show Gm Xie ru ru is a daoist?

Hmmm. So you don't train in White Crane Gongfu at all!


Hendrik,

1/. Do you train in White Crane? (Hendrik says NO)

2/. Who have you trained with directly in White Crane? (Hendrik says NO)

3/. What are your experiences/sources of White Crane? (Hendrik says some Wing Chun ... not White Crane ... with "some" elements & "classical writings"

Yet you claim you know all about the art because there are "some elements" you say, within "your" Wing Chun!

Sorry mate that doesn't cut it! I don't at all mean to be disrespectful to you or anyone else but you came on here claiming that your very knowledgeable about White Crane when in fact by your own admission you have never trained in White Crane but have read about it? Can you see what I'm getting at?

Reading about it ("Classical Writings") and doing it are two entirely different things all together!

I have read a great deal about Wing Chun but I don't claim to know Wing Chun! That would be plainly wrong, terribly presumptuous and not at all without a smattering of ego!

To again answer your question ... Direct transmission!

Something for you to note:

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YikKam

Where is your evidence that Grandmaster Xie Zhong Xiang was not a Taoist?

[Hendrik]

Hmmm. So you don't train in White Crane Gongfu at all!

Yet you claim you know all about the art because there are "some elements" you say, within "your" Wing Chun!

Sorry mate that doesn't cut it!

Reading about it ("Classical Writings") and doing it are two entirely different things all together!



I have read a great deal about Wing Chun but I don't claim to know Wing Chun! That would be plainly wrong, terribly presumptuous and not at all without a smattering of ego!

To again answer your question ... Direct transmission!




Where is your evidence that Grandmaster Xie Zhong Xiang was not a Taoist?



Fang Chi Niang's White Crane is my art's ancestor. I know my ancestor art which is within my art. what is the issue? what is not direct transmission?


Do you have Direct transmission from Fang Chi Niang? or your art is no different from mine which is an evolution from Fang Chi Niang?




As for Xie Zhong Xiang, There is no indication of Xie is a Daoist. In fact, Xie's Crane is an evolution created by his teacher.

“潘屿八”慌忙跪下拜师，殷情难却，林世咸返回潘屿授拳，“潘屿八”先学罗汉拳，后学得白鹤拳真传。他天资 聪颖，将南北拳法合二为一，创造出一种新拳—鸣鹤拳。其拳法中除了保留白鹤拳的经典套路外，还融入罗汉拳“ 二十八宿”套路，增创南北综合拳“七景”以及对练等技击法。人巧物开，他终于成为鸣鹤拳一代宗师，从而推动 了传统武术在福州地区的沿承与发展。

“潘屿八”成师后教徒广众，其中，


家住福州星安桥畔的谢崇祥（1852—1930年），拜达崇习武，勤学苦练，练就一身功夫

http://www.csqlib.com/News_View.asp?NewsID=128

[Minghequan]

Today 12:56 PM
Hendrik

Fang Chi Niang's White Crane is my art's ancestor. I know my ancestor art which is within my art. what is the issue? what is not direct transmission?


Do you have Direct transmission from Fang Chi Niang? or your art is no different from mine which is an evolution from Fang Chi Niang?

Your art is Wing Chun .... NOT White Crane and yes, there is a difference ... a very big one!

Yes and Yes! Master Lee Kong is my Master/Advisor! I am also aligned via Kein-Chong Lau!


As for Xie Zhong Xiang, There is no indication of Xie is a Daoist. In fact, Xie's Crane is an evolution created by his teacher.

“潘屿八”慌忙跪下拜师，殷情难却，林世咸返回潘屿授拳，“潘屿八”先学罗汉拳，后学得白鹤拳真 传。他天资 聪颖，将南北拳法合二为一，创造出一种新拳—鸣鹤拳。其拳法中除了保留白鹤拳的经典套路外，还 融入罗汉拳“ 二十八宿”套路，增创南北综合拳“七景”以及对练等技击法。人巧物开，他终于成为鸣鹤拳一代宗 师，从而推动 了传统武术在福州地区的沿承与发展。

“潘屿八”成师后教徒广众，其中，


家住福州星安桥畔的谢崇祥（1852—1930年），拜达崇习武，勤学苦练，练就一身功夫

http://www.csqlib.com/News_View.asp?NewsID=128

Okay so you posted some writing and a link about Minghequan ... What does that actually prove???

Where is your proof that Xie Zhong Xiang is NOT a Taoist??? My proof comes from Oral Transmission from Xie Zhong Xiang to his student Huang Xin Xian to Xie Mu Tai and then onwards to my co-founder Kein-Chong Lau. (not to mention written transmission in the form of the personal White Crane Manual/Text which was passed to Grandmaster Huang Xin Xian through Xie Zhong Xian)

Lets be honest here Hendrik, neither of us actually trained with Fang Qiniang or Xie Zhong Xiang!!! And neither of us is the direct authority on White Crane (although some are closer than others).

Again, have you trained in actual White Crane Gongfu and not some off-shoot???

[Hendrik]

Call in whooping crane, call it karate, call it wing Chun what is the different? Read Sifu Lee kong s. Article on white crane lineages, wing Chun is listed there. so may be you want to share with us here, which lineage of white crane you comes from?


Fang chi niang's white crane has uniqueness which the off spring inherit. In term of frame , momentum ..ect. Which could be verify from white crane classical writing. Those are real technical stuffs to be discussed and set as reference. So, to discuss white crane one needs to start there instead of jump to daoist, soft....better... etc. Which is a personal opinion. One needs to know why and how the white crane of Fang chi niang function and practice and then the evolution.

[Minghequan]

As stated, my lineage is known, no need to re-hash here.

Okay you say you want to share? .... THEN SHARE!


Fang chi niang's white crane has uniqueness which the off spring inherit. In term of frame , momentum ..ect. Which could be verify from white crane classical writing. Those are real technical stuffs to be discussed and set as reference.

Tell me ALL you can about the original writings and art as you believe was taught by Founder Fang Qiniang ... Everything!

I await your next post on this very matter seeing as you are so kind to share!

Tell me everything: How did Fang Qiniang teach?, What did she teach? What are the principles, concepts, techniques and forms she originally taught?

Share everything you know!

[Hendrik]

As stated, my lineage is known, no need to re-hash here.

Okay you say you want to share? .... THEN SHARE!



Tell me ALL you can about the original writings and art as you believe was taught by Founder Fang Qiniang ... Everything!

I await your next post on this very matter seeing as you are so kind to share!

Tell me everything: How did Fang Qiniang teach?, What did she teach? What are the principles, concepts, techniques and forms she originally taught?

Share everything you know!


You have not adress your lineage.


Your are the resercher so share with us .

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,



You have not adress (sic) your lineage.

You want to know about poor little old me? Sure, no problems please visit this link:

http://www.whitecranegongfu.com/ron%20goninan%20~%20master%20degree%20~%20china.ht m

Hey! Send me your direct email and I'll even send you copies of my certificates etc.


Today 05:07 PM
Hendrik
Your are the resercher (sic) so share with us .

You are both wrong and right, no I'm not a "resercher" (I gather English is not your first language?) ... I am however a researcher, seeker, constant learner!

I have shared more than enough here. You meanwhile have basically said nothing. You want more about me, my approach? Well buddy, go to my web site, there's a fair bit of information on it that will give you more than a basic overview of what I and my association is all about:

http://www.whitecranegongfu.com

Lets cut the Bulldust here and cut to the chase! .... You come on here claiming to know just about all there is about White Crane because you do Wing Chun (Go Figure!) and you have read so-called "Classic Writings" (yes your "Google-Fu" is strong!) most likely by trawling through a number of Chinese Martial Arts web sites most probably using Google Translate to help you read them ......... You claim you have knowledge to share but when asked to share that knowledge, guess what! ... You clam up and say nothing! ... is that because perhaps, just maybe ... you have nothing to say? Maybe, just maybe your a 廢話藝術家!

I'm not prepared to waste my time with one such as you .. Someone who has a lot to say about nothing!

If your not prepared to share then as us Aussies say ... bugger off!

[Hendrik]

When two professional engineers meet in a conference, they introduce each others and then share their profesion knowledge. That is how sharing happen in professional world in an effective, professional, and natural way.



I have shared the information 1, Fang chi niang s art has content of frame, menentum handling. 2, Xie is not the creator is a student of the whooping crane founder. Whooping crane is an evolution of fang chi niang white crane with other arts. 3, fang chi niang s teaching is trackable via classical writing.

So, your idea of hard white crane , made soft, daoist, ........ You might want to Share where are these ideas of yours come from and base on the above knowing facts of white crane of fang chi niang, could that be possible ?

from the above chinese article,
There is no indication of Xie is a daoist. Also the person who create whooping crane style is Xie teacher. It also doesn't say Xie further evolve whooping crane with daoist.

[Hendrik]

You want a friendly technical discussion or a pi$$$ing off contest?




Hendrik,



You want to know about poor little old me? Sure, no problems please visit this link:

http://www.whitecranegongfu.com/ron%20goninan%20~%20master%20degree%20~%20china.ht m

Hey! Send me your direct email and I'll even send you copies of my certificates etc.



You are both wrong and right, no I'm not a "resercher" (I gather English is not your first language?) ... I am however a researcher, seeker, constant learner!

I have shared more than enough here. You meanwhile have basically said nothing. You want more about me, my approach? Well buddy, go to my web site, there's a fair bit of information on it that will give you more than a basic overview of what I and my association is all about:

http://www.whitecranegongfu.com

Lets cut the Bulldust here and cut to the chase! .... You come on here claiming to know just about all there is about White Crane because you do Wing Chun (Go Figure!) and you have read so-called "Classic Writings" (yes your "Google-Fu" is strong!) most likely by trawling through a number of Chinese Martial Arts web sites most probably using Google Translate to help you read them ......... You claim you have knowledge to share but when asked to share that knowledge, guess what! ... You clam up and say nothing! ... is that because perhaps, just maybe ... you have nothing to say? Maybe, just maybe your a 廢話藝術家!

I'm not prepared to waste my time with one such as you .. Someone who has a lot to say about nothing!

If your not prepared to share then as us Aussies say ... bugger off!