I put up some vids for ya all

[MightyB]

messing around with the flip cam after a good Judo / Grappling work out and decided to share some 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Diu Sau / Ou Lou Choi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1P3VhFMYI)- my take on it.

Ou Lou Choi "Patty Cake" Warm-Up Drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33H71N4oUI)

Belt Wheel Take Down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwb_2oZlpo) - easy and fun for anybody regardless of style.

So the last one's not Mantis - but it's still cool.

[Codeboy]

Very nicely done videos B! Good explanation of au lau choi too.

Way to throw us "kung fu guys" a bone on the Belt Wheel video heheheh :D

So, speaking of au lau choi, is the only difference between it and choi sum sao the name? From what I can tell, sifu uses the two interchangeably but maybe I'm not picking up on some nuance?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Nice vids, B. Thanks for posting.

[MightyB]

Very nicely done videos B! Good explanation of au lau choi too.

Way to throw us "kung fu guys" a bone on the Belt Wheel video heheheh :D

So, speaking of au lau choi, is the only difference between it and choi sum sao the name? From what I can tell, sifu uses the two interchangeably but maybe I'm not picking up on some nuance?

You got it - just the name. "A rose by any other name..."

Liked that belt wheel did ya? Yeah - it's a good one that no one uses too much anymore, so they don't know how to defend it. I don't know why it's not used because it's super easy.

The big points I was trying to make on the diu sau was the vertical space covered by the forearm in case you miss the catch you'll still get the deflection, that it's receiving and not so much reaching, and that au lou choi is one continuous motion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for sharing :)
It's nice to see the commonalities that many MA share.

[pateticorecords]

Nice work!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6sY7pOlDQ&feature=related

[MightyB]

Look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6sY7pOlDQ&feature=related

He's obviously a bad@ss and a brilliant man.



Much like myself. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

He's obviously a bad@ss and a brilliant man.



Much like myself. :D

Well said my friend :)

[Dragonzbane76]

you ever throw anyone off that balcony your on in training? Now that would be super awesome and the chicks would love it. :D

[-N-]

The big points I was trying to make on the diu sau was the vertical space covered by the forearm in case you miss the catch you'll still get the deflection, that it's receiving and not so much reaching, and that au lou choi is one continuous motion.

If you slightly decrease the vertical space and reach more from greater distance, your motion will be faster and more aggressive.

I don't worry too much on receiving. Easier to take the fight to the other person.

[-N-]

Look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6sY7pOlDQ&feature=related

I'm told that Japanese don't consider Goju as "real" karate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm told that Japanese don't consider Goju as "real" karate.

It is, quite possibly, the most Okinawan of Karate systems.
Not sure where you got that though.
I've never heard that.
Sure they tend to favour shotokan for obvious historical reasons, but I have never head that said of Goju.

[EarthDragon]

thats because they are to proud of thier culture to admit karate came from china.

I have heard this too but only from die hard japanese as I used to be practice GoJu for many years, but it reminds me of the too proud americans makng thier stupid claims about this country and igroning obvious facts.

[ginosifu]

messing around with the flip cam after a good Judo / Grappling work out and decided to share some 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Diu Sau / Ou Lou Choi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1P3VhFMYI)- my take on it.

We have in our Angry Monkey Fist a similar Hook / Control / Strike. I like to call it Hook, Slap Strike though. The first hand is more a deflecting hook hand (Not a Dui Sau). The second is more of an Iron Palm Slap to redirect the arm. Then there is the strike, which can be any hand (Fist, Back Hand, Finger Jab etc) does not matter. You can see it a little here at about 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM&feature=player_embedded#!

Good stuff MightyB !

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats because they are to proud of thier culture to admit karate came from china.

I have heard this too but only from die hard japanese as I used to be practice GoJu for many years, but it reminds me of the too proud americans makng thier stupid claims about this country and igroning obvious facts.

in 1998 Goju was named a Koryu and a Bujutsu stye by the Dai Nippon, so I am NOT sure where ANY japanese would get that view, unless they were making it up themselves.
Of course my time in Japan was devoted to Judo and Kyokushin and since kyokushin came from Goju, no one ever had anything bad to say about it.

[mooyingmantis]

If you slightly decrease the vertical space and reach more from greater distance, your motion will be faster and more aggressive.

I don't worry too much on receiving. Easier to take the fight to the other person.

Agreed! My school doesn't use gou lou chui defensively, as much as we train it aggressively.

Though nice points Kurt! I do like how you do it and it is reminiscent of how I was taught to do it in 7* by Sifu Biggie.

Here are a couple of vids of how I teach it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WavZrEtUCI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRT3oAW9w2w

Note: I demonstrate these very slowly. Flying through the techniques may look more impressive, but I put these vids up for my students to review a lesson, so I do the techniques at "grandpa speed". :)

[bawang]

in 1998 Goju was named a Koryu and a Bujutsu stye by the Dai Nippon, so I am NOT sure where ANY japanese would get that view, unless they were making it up themselves.
Of course my time in Japan was devoted to Judo and Kyokushin and since kyokushin came from Goju, no one ever had anything bad to say about it.

i really respect the uechi ryu guys because they still recognize and respect the chinese roots


i dont like shotokan, they even add phony kobudo rythm to their kata

[mooyingmantis]

We have in our Angry Monkey Fist a similar Hook / Control / Strike. I like to call it Hook, Slap Strike though. The first hand is more a deflecting hook hand (Not a Dui Sau). The second is more of an Iron Palm Slap to redirect the arm. Then there is the strike, which can be any hand (Fist, Back Hand, Finger Jab etc) does not matter. You can see it a little here at about 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM&feature=player_embedded#!

Good stuff MightyB !

ginosifu

Sun Wukung Dancing on Clouds for the win!!!

[YouKnowWho]

I have always believed that for the "Lou" of the "Gou Lou Cai", the "tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger" should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent's arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It's much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent's leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?

[mooyingmantis]

I have always believed that for the "Lou" of the "Gou Lou Cai", the "tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger" should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent's arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It's much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent's leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?

Hmmmmmm, interesting approach! I have never seen it done that way before.

Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?

[MightyB]

I have always believed that for the "Lou" of the "Gou Lou Cai", the "tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger" should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent's arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It's much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent's leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?

Ying Jow Pai guys will do it that way. We have it that way in a couple of forms - White Ape Exits the Cave - prior to the double knees comes to mind off the top of the ol' head. Just the grabbing motion - I mean.

[ginosifu]

I have always believed that for the "Lou" of the "Gou Lou Cai", the "tiger mouth - between your thumb and your 1st finger" should face to your opponent and not face to yourself. You control your opponent's arm like holding a baseball bat (like Taiji Lu). It's much easier to change it into a shoulder lock or elbow lock. Also you can control your opponent's leading arm much better.

What do you guys think about this?

In Hung Gar we have a similar technique called "Seizing" which grips the arm in this way.

To apply it, there is no Hook (like in mantis), there is only 2 tiger claw grabs, controlling their arm.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

you ever throw anyone off that balcony your on in training? Now that would be super awesome and the chicks would love it. :D

The trick is after taking the fall, to stand up and say, "yeah - I meant to do that". Then the chicks really want ya.

[ginosifu]

Hmmmmmm, interesting approach! I have never seen it done that way before.

Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?

Richard

stand right guard to right guard, the opponent reaches their right out and we touch right arm to right arm. Just turn your right hand to grab their wrist and your left hand is palm face up and grabs near the elbow. Now you have YouKnowWho's baseball bat grip on their arm.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

Then do the gou and lou end up working the same way as shuang feng shou (double seal hands)?
Or are they merely transitional to the cai?

You will have much stronger "pulling" power for your Lou when your tiger mouth is facing to your opponent. When your tiger mouth faces to yourself, you just don't have much "pulling" power.

[MightyB]

If you slightly decrease the vertical space and reach more from greater distance, your motion will be faster and more aggressive.

I don't worry too much on receiving. Easier to take the fight to the other person.

My tendency is to get close, real close. I borrow heavily from boxing, you see it with the quick "idiot walk" or "robot walking" that I do in the vid. I like to protect my head, get tight, then explode once I caught their rhythm. I'll go offensive usually with a jab - again, put the jab out there maybe once or twice to gauge their reaction. If they keep doing the same ol' thing like a gua style block (I said "pak" meant "gua" in the vid) then I'll feed off of it - look at around 1:18 in the vid.

This is all habit because I usually only practice "live" anymore and that's how I compensate for the unpredictability of fighting.

[mooyingmantis]

Richard

stand right guard to right guard, the opponent reaches their right out and we touch right arm to right arm. Just turn your right hand to grab their wrist and your left hand is palm face up and grabs near the elbow. Now you have YouKnowWho's baseball bat grip on their arm.

ginosifu

Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don't see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.

[MightyB]

We have in our Angry Monkey Fist a similar Hook / Control / Strike. I like to call it Hook, Slap Strike though. The first hand is more a deflecting hook hand (Not a Dui Sau). The second is more of an Iron Palm Slap to redirect the arm. Then there is the strike, which can be any hand (Fist, Back Hand, Finger Jab etc) does not matter. You can see it a little here at about 1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuZpw8tteM&feature=player_embedded#!

Good stuff MightyB !

ginosifu

Nice vid - I'm serious when I say that grapplers should pick up monkey style because it fits with their low entries.

[ginosifu]

Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don't see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.

I am not sure what YouKnowWho had in mind next. You can still release the right hand to strike (still holding palm face up grip with your left hand). It does not seem related to the gou / lou / chui? though.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

Yes, I understood that. What you describe is the second hand movement of Bai Yuan Chu Dong.

I just don't see that as comparable to gou lou cai if both hands maintain their hold. And since I know John is well aware of the difference between the two methods, I wanted to make sure that I understood what he meant.

It's always nice to pull your opponent's head into your punch when you apply Gou Lou Cai Shou instead of just move in yourself for your punch. A head on collusion is the best case for striking, a strong pulling can help to achieve that. Beside that, the pulling can set up almost any throw that you want to execute. It can open another door for you. If you keep your left hand Lou on your opponent's elbow, push your right hand on your opponent's neck, and hook his leading leg, you can take your opponent down with your "front cut".

[mooyingmantis]

You will have much stronger "pulling" power for your Lou when your tiger mouth is facing to your opponent. When your tiger mouth faces to yourself, you just don't have much "pulling" power.

OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

If I were using the method you describe for grappling, I see its superiority. I just question whether there would be a loss of speed in getting in a punch with the pluck if both hands are locked on the opponent's arm.

[YouKnowWho]

OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

If I were using the method you describe for grappling, I see its superiority. I just question whether there would be a loss of speed in getting in a punch with the pluck if both hands are locked on the opponent's arm.
You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.

You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.

[mooyingmantis]

You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.

Agreed!


You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.

Yes, that is how I play it. I use lou shou as a press rather than a pull.

Though I believe the gou lou cao keyword theories would support your method.

Thank you for the clarification!

MightyB,
You started a great discussion! Meat & potatoes type of stuff!

[-N-]

in 1998 Goju was named a Koryu and a Bujutsu stye by the Dai Nippon, so I am NOT sure where ANY japanese would get that view, unless they were making it up themselves.
Of course my time in Japan was devoted to Judo and Kyokushin and since kyokushin came from Goju, no one ever had anything bad to say about it.

Back in the 80's, a Japanese friend was saying that the Shotokan guys looked down on Goju as being not macho enough as well as foreign(Five Ancestors connection).

[-N-]

My tendency is to get close, real close. I borrow heavily from boxing, you see it with the quick "idiot walk" or "robot walking" that I do in the vid. I like to protect my head, get tight, then explode once I caught their rhythm.

Same here, but at that close range we're not using au lou choi as much as elbows, and body striking with shoulder and hips, and takedowns.

We use that head guard as you showed in the clip. We consider that the close range version of flipping palm that you see as long short guard in the forms.

Au lou choi at that close range can be a problem due to the acute bend of the elbow as well as the second hand opening the guard too much.

For us, we also refer to au lou choi as "intercept, control, strike". At close range, there is no need to intercept because you are already engaged.

This is like what Brendan posted in the other thread.


The apparent ‘problem’ in sparring with Tanglang (or at least the problem that people seem to have these days, especially in the west) is that techniques such as gou, lou, cai, diao shou, shuang feng shou, di lou chui, tou shou etc are techniques which are generally employed in the initial phase/first contact of a self defence situation or an assault. Sparring works the aspect of the conflict that is the back and forth exchange that takes place after that initial point. In the case of Tanglang, this is the part that is largely dominated by its Longfist component (i.e. punches and kicks). Once you get into clinch it moves to duanda (knees, elbows and butting) then na/shuai.

Here's a gif of the range we more commonly use au lou choi. Jab, mantis hook, inside au lou choi in this case.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/jh123_a_GIFSoupcom-1.gif

[-N-]

You will have much strong jerking motion this way because your pulling power is stronger.

You can even just use your Lou to press your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm. That elbow control (1 point contact) by itself should be sufficient IMO. This will give you a free hand to do whatever that you want to do.

We consider au lou choi to be a striking method, and we don't put as much emphasis on the pulling or pushing.

We feel that gives too much force for the other person to read, and it compromises the main strength of Mantis which is its speed and explosiveness.

For us, our ideal is for the 1st and 2nd hands to be as undetectable as possible.

[-N-]

OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

For us, we look at the strike as the pluck or cai. The pluck is to "take" what you want with your strike.

The idea is that with au and lou, the opponent is unable to prevent you from taking what you want.

[MightyB]

We consider au lou choi to be a striking method, and we don't put as much emphasis on the pulling or pushing.

We feel that gives too much force for the other person to read, and it compromises the main strength of Mantis which is its speed and explosiveness.

For us, our ideal is for the 1st and 2nd hands to be as undetectable as possible.

True Dat! That's where I see it too -

I was thinking through what YouKnowWho brought up and it sounds a lot like an arm drag.

[mooyingmantis]

And this is why the Northern Mantis Forum ROCKS:

1. Knowledgeable, Polite Posters
2. Wide Ranging Opinions
3. Respectful exchanges without arguing or drama

Excellent posts guys!

[YouKnowWho]

Here is the "front cut" that I'm talking about. You can still use your right hand to punch your opponent's face if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fuYdj-WxQ

[MightyB]

Here is the "front cut" that I'm talking about. You can still use your right hand to punch your opponent's face if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fuYdj-WxQ

I like it... I could've used this vid earlier though. Had a good workout with some MMAers tonight dealing in a no gi situation and working takedowns. I was pretty exhausted and couldn't (didn't want to) shoot low any more and they were pretty adept with stiff arming in a wrestler's crouch. This motion/set up that you show in the video (minus the kick because we were only working takedowns) would've gotten me the position for the "front cut" or as I call it Osoto-Gari that I like to do.

[MightyB]

Here's a gif of the range we more commonly use au lou choi. Jab, mantis hook, inside au lou choi in this case.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/jh123_a_GIFSoupcom-1.gif

That's too far out for me - just my preference I guess. I don't like to chase at that range and I hate reaching - so I'll close in tight for all my mantis.

It's like I was telling the MMAers tonight when they were referencing some of the more "spectacular" take downs and throws that I'll use from Judo and how they don't feel comfortable with them - I just feel confident in that real tight range and don't worry about a miss because if I miss the throw, I know how to defend my back.

My confidence is higher at short range - where I can dictate the pace and motion of the fight. At that longer range - I feel it's too 50/50 where luck and speed become the dominating factor over skill and I'm neither lucky or overly fast. ;)

[EarthDragon]

And this is why the Northern Mantis Forum ROCKS:

1. Knowledgeable, Polite Posters
2. Wide Ranging Opinions
3. Respectful exchanges without arguing or drama

Excellent posts guys!

this is the board where you come to exchange ideas share knowlege and learn form others.... the main board is for laughes and entertainment.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is the "front cut" that I'm talking about. You can still use your right hand to punch your opponent's face if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fuYdj-WxQ

John,
Nice video!

In aikido I learned a method similar to that for entering and throwing. It is a part of the Irimi-nage series. You "pass" the opponent's lead arm to the side with a hand motion like you describe as your lou shou grip, step in and behind, then toss the opponent with the lead arm.

[-N-]

That's too far out for me - just my preference I guess. I don't like to chase at that range and I hate reaching - so I'll close in tight for all my mantis.

Too far for us as well. But for training purposes, we make the student start at a range disadvantage to force him to develop explosive closing ability. Then he has to be all up in the other guy's face with body to body contact. But that's not shown on this sequence.


My confidence is higher at short range - where I can dictate the pace and motion of the fight. At that longer range - I feel it's too 50/50 where luck and speed become the dominating factor over skill and I'm neither lucky or overly fast. ;)

Well, that's normal. But I also think you can be a lot faster than you realize.

[-N-]

Here is the "front cut" that I'm talking about. You can still use your right hand to punch your opponent's face if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fuYdj-WxQ

Sure. That's the idea of the 2 handed grab in Mantis. And there are classical applications where the right hand does strike after the grab.

But we distinguish that method from au lou choi in that the former has greater emphasis on the control and unbalancing aspect, and the latter has more on the speed and strike aspect.

It's a matter of keeping clear distinction between the various methods so as to develop each strength or advantage to its maximum potential.

[-N-]

And this is why the Northern Mantis Forum ROCKS:


We'll have to fix that.

:D

[Michael Dasargo]

penal code. coccyx, and orangina.

You're welcome,
mike

[-N-]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Lolz :)

[Michael Dasargo]

Here is the "front cut" that I'm talking about. You can still use your right hand to punch your opponent's face if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7fuYdj-WxQ

I believe this is "White Ape Invites Guest". The downward double grab/jerk to uproot is different in principle from the gou lou choi.

M.

[Michael Dasargo]

messing around with the flip cam after a good Judo / Grappling work out and decided to share some 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Diu Sau / Ou Lou Choi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1P3VhFMYI)- my take on it.

Ou Lou Choi "Patty Cake" Warm-Up Drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33H71N4oUI)

Belt Wheel Take Down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwb_2oZlpo) - easy and fun for anybody regardless of style.

So the last one's not Mantis - but it's still cool.

The backfist to gou-lou-choi works well with defensive opponents. What are your options when the opponent blocks the backhand then throws the reverse?

[Michael Dasargo]

OK, I see your point on that.

I guess my question is, Does the cai consist of a jerking action of the lou shou, or a combined jerking action of the gou shou and lou shou?

If I were using the method you describe for grappling, I see its superiority. I just question whether there would be a loss of speed in getting in a punch with the pluck if both hands are locked on the opponent's arm.

Gou lou cai = extends the arm at shoulder level
Bai Yuan Chu Dong = plucks the arm by hyper-extending the elbow (not by plucking down)

In regards to plucking in gou lou cai:

can but not always the case. When you do, using gou and lou in conjunction divides the effort of straightening the opponents arm while maintaining tactile awareness.

M.

[mooyingmantis]

Gou lou cai = extends the arm at shoulder level
Bai Yuan Chu Dong = plucks the arm by hyper-extending the elbow (not by plucking down)

In regards to plucking in gou lou cai:

can but not always the case. When you do, using gou and lou in conjunction divides the effort of straightening the opponents arm while maintaining tactile awareness.

M.

Mike,
Yeah I understand the concepts. I was asking John how he saw the cai related to how he was describing his use-age of White Ape Invites Guest".

[MightyB]

The backfist to gou-lou-choi works well with defensive opponents. What are your options when the opponent blocks the backhand then throws the reverse?

Actually that's almost the topic of my next vid - something that I call the "rolling nut shot". Poetic isn't it? One day I'll be a children's book author.

I was going to shoot it yesterday at the other club I practice at, but I was just too wiped after working out. I won't be able to work out with a group again until Thursday, but I'll be sure to bring the flipcam because the world needs to see the magic of the "rolling nut shot".

[MightyB]

The Rolling Nut Shot. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXH6D9GOdE)

Have fun kids ;)

[MightyB]

The Sifu McHappy Slap. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvl-onvdt2A) :D

[Codeboy]

Hehehe, very nice B! I was expecting something a bit different on the Rolling Nut Shot, but that was cool. Don't think I've seen Sifu do that one (of course you never see him actually doing any of these movement, you just FEEL them) :eek:

The Happy Slap is awesome. I hate the high gwa zhou block because that often sets up the Happy Slap knocking the block higher and then as Sifu would say, "same hand use twice", whack slap on my forehead leaving a nice ring indentation. Hahah, yeah. Good stuff. :D

[mooyingmantis]

The Rolling Nut Shot. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXH6D9GOdE)

Have fun kids ;)

Nice technique!
But if that is how you impress girls, you must be single. :D LOL!