Good Sword to share

[CYMac]

This is a very good sword in my collection that I like very much. Posting to share. The sword is well build, sturdy, good weight but you have to know how to hold a sword right to enjoy it. Many kungfu masters who hold a sword wrong like the typical wushu "hold by the guard" method will get your hands all scrached and bleeding for sure because that's not how you hold the sword right. Enjoy the sword photos!

This is sword no.1 Chun Gim.

[SimonM]

From what I've seen in your videos, you are not a sword expert. The sword you show is pretty enough, however I'm concerned about the shape of the blade, particularly at the terminal point of the half-fuller; the photo isn't great but it looks like a likely stress point and you don't want a stress-point half-way along the blade.

What forge produced the sword?

It doesn't look like an actual Longquan jian; the seven stars on the forte are not up to scratch.

I'm suspecting it's a decorative blade only.

[SPJ]

it said qin sword.

well it is not correct.

qin sword is much wider and longer. made out of bronze ?

it was not shiny or pointed.

--

nice stainless sword.

---

[SimonM]

The forge mark says Longquan Zhongguo but it doesn't look like any longquan forge mark I've ever seen (and I've been to Longquan). Lots of random nobody forges with stamped steel blades carve the Longquan name into the blade, stick seven stars on the forte and call it a day.

Shanzhai wall hangers one-and-all.

[JamesC]

He'll probably come back and claim to be a sword expert after your responses. And then tell you that you guys didn't learn Teh Reelz Shwordz.

[SimonM]

Meh,

I've seen his videos.

His grip is so soft a baby could disarm him with a piece of dowel.

Considering that, I'm not surprised if he mistakes a pretty sword for a good sword.

[Lokhopkuen]

It's a style popular in the sword shops in Wu Dang village (Liuliping) I had a two handed version that I bought in 2009. They're making them more gaudy and unwieldy every year.

[CYMac]

The sword above is great for practice as well. The sword is shorter than normal swords, but then the weight is quite nice. You can find them in Toronto too, no need to go to wudang village, haha! They can cost about $80-$150 depends where you get them. But as said, they require you to have a good grip practice to use, if not, you will hurt yourself only and scratch you hands.

[Lokhopkuen]

Toronto and Wudang are about the same distance from here:D
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/DSC05169.jpg
Not a good picture but third one from the bottom is the two handed in a similar style.

[CYMac]

This is another similar one to the sword above, it says "General's carry sword" on the blade. This is short like the sword above, but sturdy blade, and it feels very good in your hand. We use it for Taoism magic at our temple. These are just good because all the kungfu use swords are too long for Taoism magic sometimes, so it's nice to find these decent ones! I am happy about the sword!! :) Btw, great grip and very solid feeling too!

[EarthDragon]

since when does taoism have majic and violence in it? am I missing something master?

[MasterKiller]

Something odd about this....

[CYMac]

since when does taoism have majic and violence in it? am I missing something master?

Taoism have had magic since the start of the religion. Violence? Exorcism is about killing ghosts and demons already, is that violence to you? I see it as bringing justice to the world and not violence.

[SimonM]

With the rust on that second sword you posted pics of you might give the demons tetanus. :eek:

[pateticorecords]

Something odd about this....
hahahaha:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This is a very good sword in my collection that I like very much. Posting to share. The sword is well build, sturdy, good weight but you have to know how to hold a sword right to enjoy it. Many kungfu masters who hold a sword wrong like the typical wushu "hold by the guard" method will get your hands all scrached and bleeding for sure because that's not how you hold the sword right. Enjoy the sword photos!

This is sword no.1 Chun Gim.

I must say, it's a very attractive cheap replica. Can you tell us, does it rattle at all when you shake it? If not, have you ever tried test-cutting with it?

Regarding the holding of a sword: both the "finger over guard" and "finger off guard" have been used in the past, depending on the swordsman's method.

"Finger over guard" allows the fingers to assist in cutting by creating a fulcrum/functional pivot when the fingers squeeze the guard. I've seen methods that use either single-finger or double-finger grips over the guard.

Here is a close-up of a Yuan Dynasty painting where the swordsman is holding his sword with a double-finger grip over the guard.

[CYMac]

I must say, it's a very attractive cheap replica. Can you tell us, does it rattle at all when you shake it? Have you ever tried test-cutting with it?

Regarding the holding of a sword: both the "finger over guard" and "finger off guard" have been used in the past, depending on the swordsman's method.

"Finger over guard" allows the fingers to assist in cutting by creating a fulcrum/functional pivot when the fingers squeeze the guard. I've seen methods that use either single-finger or double-finger grips over the guard

Here is a close-up of a Yuan Dynasty painting where the swordsman is holding his sword with a double-finger grip over the guard.

The sword is super sturdy, no rattling, no loosening, and I have been doing tons of heavy chops and slashes with it but not "cut" any objects since it is not a sharpened sword. I could sharpen it in the future and test, but I have sharpened some normal "taichi swords" from dragon well before myself and they can cut like crazy too, what's the point? haha! Just keeping things safe at home... these are already good for what they are now. The sword is more solid and sturdy than most kungfu use taichi swords now too. The screws / assembly don't get loosen over use with heavy strikes and chops. Which is good!

About the grip, I will not go into that discussion but if you have this word, you will not grip it like "finger over guard" for sure because it won't work, you will scratch your hand badly and that's fact for this case.

Btw, I don't refer to paintings or pictures to "correct holding methods" because the painters can be wrong or the guy telling the painter to paint such a way could be wrong. "old" doesn't means right too. So I suggest all the judge it yourself and if you hold a sword like this, you will know what's right and what's wrong by your own experience anyway, so.. no need to discuss anything, get one and test it yourself.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The sword is super sturdy, no rattling, no loosening, and I have been doing tons of heavy chops and slashes with it but not "cut" any objects since it is not a sharpened sword. I could sharpen it in the future and test, but I have sharpened some normal "taichi swords" from dragon well before myself and they can cut like crazy too, what's the point? haha! Just keeping things safe at home... these are already good for what they are now. The sword is more solid and sturdy than most kungfu use taichi swords now too. The screws / assembly don't get loosen over use with heavy strikes and chops. Which is good!

It's good to hear that it's sold tight and that it withstands forceful swinging. To be fair, I've never personally come across a Jian, even a cheap one, that rattled; however only some real test-cutting will reveal whether or not it can withstand the force of impact. Moreover, test-cutting is important not only for developing proper power but also (and more importantly, really) for developing proper technique. With good technique, the force needed to execute (pun intended) a successful cut is reduced dramatically. Even if you're just using it to kill invisible, intangible opponents ;) , I would think that you would have an interest in developing an effective cut - and test-cutting is the best way to do this. I recommend it. Before I started test-cutting, my cuts LOOKED effective, but I quickly learned that appearances can be deceiving after my first few cuts! :)

If you don't want to sharpen your sword, then I suggest test-cutting pool noodles. Even an unsharpened cheapie Wushu sword will cut through pool noodles, and will give you an idea of how your technique is coming along.


About the grip, I will not go into that discussion but if you have this word, you will not grip it like "finger over guard" for sure because it won't work, you will scratch your hand badly and that's fact for this case.

With your sword, it's understandable. The guard is not built with that method in mind. I'm assuming it's the sharp corners of the guard that will scratch you (?) since the JianRen (Forte) of the blade is not meant to be sharpened anyway.


Btw, I don't refer to paintings or pictures to "correct holding methods" because the painters can be wrong or the guy telling the painter to paint such a way could be wrong. "old" doesn't means right too. So I suggest all the judge it yourself and if you hold a sword like this, you will know what's right and what's wrong by your own experience anyway, so.. no need to discuss anything, get one and test it yourself.

Art history is a valuable source of info. Consider the following:
1) Illiteracy was WAAY higher back then than today
2) Paintings were a way to communicate with the illiterate masses
3) Misrepresenting common knowledge (such as how to wield a sword) was a huge risk, both for the artist's reputation and for the person/group commissioning the work of art - it reduced their credibility with the common people AND the elite.

As such, art history is not something to completely disregard - neither is it something to rely upon exclusively, either. It's always good to examine things thoroughly from as many perspectives as possible, including testing it out for oneself.

As for myself, I do not use the "finger on guard" method and agree that YOUR particular sword does not lend itself well to such a method at all.

[CYMac]

A kitchen knife is already sharpened, and so you use it to chop your meat and bones. Why do you need to "test" all the time? You learn from chopping "real", not test.

Practise with sword with your proper techniques are already giving you a good cut movement, but cutting with a sword on object is more a Japanese style practice, not Chinese swords' tradition. If you realize, human are not like bamboo or the rolled tatami that Japanese use for their sword cutting. For human flesh to cut apart, even with a 12 years old girl's hand and a school use exacto knife.. it will cut apart with no skills. In the past, swords are use for fighting because it is a "weapon", and so no matter how you cut, the sword is already lethal if is it made for the use. Now, not much swords are made for the use anyway because you don't fight with them anymore. I know places like dragon well or cold steel makes swords that are "battle ready" but then it is not the same as what you can find in history anymore.

I have had a ching dynasty sword before that is sharpened, and it is not like anything you can buy now.

Chinese swords have methods and trainings to make your method right, and that's not doing "test cutting". If you find a good sword master, then you can ask them how to do so in a "Chinese sword way". I will keep it quiet here for now.

[YouKnowWho]

it is not a sharpened sword.

I don't like un-sharpened sword. All my swords are sharpened. When I run around and swing my sharpened sword in my front yard like a mad man, no burglar will try to break in to my house.

[CYMac]

I don't like un-sharpened sword. All my swords are sharpened. When I run around and swing my sharpened sword in my front yard like a mad man, no burglar will try to break in to my house.

What if the burglar came in when you are not home and stole all your swords? :)

[Lucas]

then you hunt him down like a rabid dog and put him down with a kitchen knife.

[SPJ]

I don't like un-sharpened sword. All my swords are sharpened. When I run around and swing my sharpened sword in my front yard like a mad man, no burglar will try to break in to my house.

Yes. It cuts both way.

If you drop your sharp wepon by accident during practice.

You may lose toe.

Big ouyi.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

A kitchen knife is already sharpened, and so you use it to chop your meat and bones. Why do you need to "test" all the time? You learn from chopping "real", not test.

If you think using a kitchen knife to chop meat = properly wielding a straightsword, then you either butcher your meat from 3 feet away with a long double edged blade from multiple angles while it hangs from a hook, and can cut yourself a side of ribs, a filet, and a steak at will with the false-edge of the blade... or you're not being quite honest with yourself about the skills needed to wield a sword properly.

Granted, perhaps using a kitchen knife will give you some experience in chopping downward with a Butterfly Sword.




Practise with sword with your proper techniques are already giving you a good cut movement

From my experience, it gives you the proper APPEARANCE of good cut movement.


but cutting with a sword on object is more a Japanese style practice, not Chinese swords' tradition.

The keyword here being "more." While it's true that Japanese swordsmanship formalized "Tameshigiri" (lit. "Test-Cutting") into an art in and of itself, it's also true that test-cutting IS a part of Chinese swordsmanship, although certainly not as formal and ritualized... and certainly not separate!


If you realize, human are not like bamboo or the rolled tatami that Japanese use for their sword cutting. For human flesh to cut apart, even with a 12 years old girl's hand and a school use exacto knife.. it will cut apart with no skills. In the past, swords are use for fighting because it is a "weapon", and so no matter how you cut, the sword is already lethal if is it made for the use.

Not quite so. First of all, a short blade is MUCH easier to control, and secondly, even the sharpest of swords will only deliver a surface wound without proper technique. You might even bend your blade!

You shouldn't take my word for it, though: try for yourself! See how cleanly you can cut a pool noodle at chest height with a:


R-to-L horizontal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut

L-to-R horizontal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut

R-to-L downward diagonal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut

L-to-R downward diagonal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut

R-to-L upward diagonal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut

L-to-R upward diagonal

"True Edge" cut
"False Edge" cut



You have very good camera equipment: maybe you could even film it for us. Don't worry, the pool noodle will not damage or bend your blade no matter how badly you muck up a cut. :)


I know places like dragon well or cold steel makes swords that are "battle ready" but then it is not the same as what you can find in history anymore.
Wait, aren't your swords supposed to be from Dragon Well?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Yes. It cuts both way.

If you drop your sharp wepon by accident during practice.

You may lose toe.

Big ouyi.

Ah, the joy of Lanyards! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl4PtViHEpM)

Apologies for the crap quality.

[Dale Dugas]

What if the burglar came in when you are not home and stole all your swords? :)


When the burglar breaks in, I can shoot him with my 1911 and not my Magic taoist gun nor do I have to gut him with my real, sharpened swords.

Living in the USA has HUGE advantages over nations that do not allow the people who pay for the nations to exist to arm and defend themselves. I feel for all the sheep in the UK, Canada, and Australia who let their Government tell them they cannot defend themselves from criminals.

People that play with toy martial arts weapons, un-sharpened swords and toy guns are playing at being a warrior/soldier/martial artist.

Beginners need to learn without cutting their hands off and should use a safe beginners weapon, but someone such as yourself CYMAC, who makes big claims as to being a martial arts teacher should go to the next level, or you are just playing at it like a child.

[SimonM]

Living in the USA has HUGE advantages over nations that do not allow the people who pay for the nations to exist to arm and defend themselves. I feel for all the sheep in the UK, Canada, and Australia who let their Government tell them they cannot defend themselves from criminals.



You... do... realize that Canada has more firearms per capita than the USA.

The difference is that we didn't make it a right, so if you commit a crime, you don't get to use guns any more (legally anyway).

It's a privilege but not one hard to exercise if you are a law abiding citizen.

And that small cultural difference means that Canadians are much less likely to shoot each other over stupid ****.

So, you go right ahead and feel for all those people you just wrote off as sheep.

We'll just keep shaking our heads at the gun-mad yankees and the cult of things that go bang.

[bawang]

developing proper power but also (and more importantly, really) for developing proper technique.

one word

cable machine

[Xiao3 Meng4]

one word

cable machine

Yes, cutting through a cable machine will develop strength and power.

Also, math is good.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUY1TKqkfaM&feature=related


you will be chopping heads like william wallace

[CYMac]

When the burglar breaks in, I can shoot him with my 1911 and not my Magic taoist gun nor do I have to gut him with my real, sharpened swords.

Living in the USA has HUGE advantages over nations that do not allow the people who pay for the nations to exist to arm and defend themselves. I feel for all the sheep in the UK, Canada, and Australia who let their Government tell them they cannot defend themselves from criminals.

People that play with toy martial arts weapons, un-sharpened swords and toy guns are playing at being a warrior/soldier/martial artist.

Beginners need to learn without cutting their hands off and should use a safe beginners weapon, but someone such as yourself CYMAC, who makes big claims as to being a martial arts teacher should go to the next level, or you are just playing at it like a child.


Unsharpened swords (metal) in kungfu are not toys. Toys are made of plastic. If you kid the metal sword that are unsharpened, you can for sure see some tragic stuff happen. An unsharpen sword can also kill. I used to practice sword fighting with my student in 2006-2007 with these unsharpened spring steel swords. Not the wushu stuff, but dragon well stuff. He used to got his whole forearm bleeding and stuff and it was too dangerous even I am being careful, mind you that we are going at full speed too just to be fun and practical. So I was the one who say we gotta stop doing the practice with metal sword unless his skills is about my level, or else it would be too crazy.. and so we stopped the practice. he was enjoying it though, lots of bleeding and stuff. "with unsharpened swords".

Don't look at things like that, you ae underestimating unsharpened stuff. LoL!

[David Jamieson]

For full strength striking practice, use a pell
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/Pell.jpg.

a 5 to 6 foot single post of wood of 7"-10" outside diameter will do.

to test your blade sharpness, use rolled tatamis, rolled cardboard or if you can afford it and don't mind being wasteful, a whole pig. :p (or simply cut a piece of printer paper with it by running it along the blade.)

But having a pell (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/993/tomtirepellbf4.jpg) is key to understanding what happens to the sword and you and your hold upon the sword as you strike with it at full force as if really using it.

It's a centuries honoured (http://www.thearma.org/essays/pell/pellcolor.JPG) tradition. :)

[SPJ]

for chopping and hacking

we use katana or broad sword.

narrow straight sword is for piercing or ci mostly.

when I was in high school in taiwan

after sword practice we were so thirsty.

I actually used the practice sword to chop water melon

I sliced it good,

so every student got a piece or slice of water melon to quench the thirst.

but for chopping pork on a board

we use wide and heavy knife or butcher knife and not long thing knife.

each has its utility.

now I am hungry and thirsty

I miss sugar cane, water melon and the hot summer days in taiwan.

---

[YouKnowWho]

I love to swing my Mao Diao in the woods like a mad man and chop off as many tree brenches as I can. If my Miao Dao is still sharp after that, It's a good useful weapon. If not, I'll throw it away ASAP.

[Lokhopkuen]

Something odd about this....

Taoism is rich with magic and violence while This quaint fellow's mind is devoid of Any intellect, taste, skill in photoshop, oral hygiene, the use of tact, soap or style. I'm not saying this because of all your witless taunts, mindless barbs and pathetic jabs, I'm saying this be cause I care.


Teh bar of human compassion has been raised just a teeny bit here:D

http://www.welaf.com/uploads/201005/10/imgs/1273545825_fat-man-small-scooter.jpg
Speaking or exorcism Your exercise program is really working out buddy!

[Lokhopkuen]

When the burglar breaks in, I can shoot him with my 1911 and not my Magic taoist gun nor do I have to gut him with my real, sharpened swords.

Living in the USA has HUGE advantages over nations that do not allow the people who pay for the nations to exist to arm and defend themselves. I feel for all the sheep in the UK, Canada, and Australia who let their Government tell them they cannot defend themselves from criminals.

People that play with toy martial arts weapons, un-sharpened swords and toy guns are playing at being a warrior/soldier/martial artist.

Beginners need to learn without cutting their hands off and should use a safe beginners weapon, but someone such as yourself CYMAC, who makes big claims as to being a martial arts teacher should go to the next level, or you are just playing at it like a child.

Remember with a burglar it's not WHAT YOU DO it's HOW YOU TELL IT ON THE POLICE REPORT! (the difference between a manslaughter beef and self defense..)

[CYMac]

This is another sword that is in the collection called "Hero Sword", it's a movie replica sword but it is quite good too. The grip is nicely wrapped with some good grip tape and so you can really get a good grip with it. The blade is tough, we have had accidental hit on hard objects and metals and no damage at all. Great sword that doesn't get loosen over heavy use too. No wobbling, no loosening and it is sturdy, heavy good sword. THIS IS STRONG.

[Lokhopkuen]

I gave one of these away once:D the over sized pommel (knob on the end) impedes your ability to thrust effectively.

[CYMac]

I gave one of these away once:D the over sized pommel (knob on the end) impedes your ability to thrust effectively.

Not really, depends on how you strike and thrust with different skills. Different swords designs give you a different feeling, technique, skills, and insights as well. Opens your mind up alot when you try different swords. That's the fun in sword art~

劍中藏神神意通, 兩刃之間不留風,
融身劍內由身法, 打出劍招也不同....

When you feel the designer of the sword, you know what they have in mind, and you will fall in love with it when you get the feeling too. :)

[SPJ]

me only practice with bamboo stick

then wooden sword.

nice and shiny ones are saved for "performance" or show.

my point is that good ones are preserved, polished for display.

I practice with cheap alternative that can be damaged and replaceable.

:)

[Lokhopkuen]

Not really, depends on how you strike and thrust with different skills. Different swords designs give you a different feeling, technique, skills, and insights as well. Opens your mind up alot when you try different swords. That's the fun in sword art~

劍中藏神神意通, 兩刃之間不留風,
融身劍內由身法, 打出劍招也不同....

When you feel the designer of the sword, you know what they have in mind, and you will fall in love with it when you get the feeling too. :)

Lacked functionality for my taste and style.
Sorry to appear critical but I assure you it is good natured.
Peace

[JamesC]

Not really, depends on how you strike and thrust with different skills. Different swords designs give you a different feeling, technique, skills, and insights as well. Opens your mind up alot when you try different swords. That's the fun in sword art~

劍中藏神神意通, 兩刃之間不留風,
融身劍內由身法, 打出劍招也不同....

When you feel the designer of the sword, you know what they have in mind, and you will fall in love with it when you get the feeling too. :)

In otherwords Sifu Kisu, if you can't use the cheap POS, you didn't learn Teh Reelz from Taoverse Doody. :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

To be fair the last sword he posted is a decent wall-hanger.

I still think it's shanzhai. There is a hero movie replica sword made by one of the Longquan forges but IIRC, it used a greener pallet for the fittings, and the wrap on the hilt was completely different.

Notwithstanding that, I've got uglier stuff that I've hung on my walls in the past.

Like the sword I picked up at Shaolin and subsequently broke while cut-testing because the tang was actually welded onto the blade - and poorly.

Anyway, I wouldn't practice with that sword, but these days I usually either practice with wasters, or with my Naumburg Sword.

http://www.swords-and-more.com/shop1/images/l3519_600.jpg

[David Jamieson]

lol@wallhanger. I got one of those last night.

a "Blade of the day walker" replica from the movie Blade.


It's actually quite nice, but I don't want to use it because...well, you know, it's a "replica from a movie" and ergo, not really a functional weapon.so onto the stand it goes and stays. :)

Here's what it is. I can't believe this sells for 150! yeesh! lol

[SimonM]

lol@wallhanger. I got one of those last night.

a "Blade of the day walker" replica from the movie Blade.


It's actually quite nice, but I don't want to use it because...well, you know, it's a "replica from a movie" and ergo, not really a functional weapon.so onto the stand it goes and stays. :)

Here's what it is. I can't believe this sells for 150! yeesh! lol

I've handled that blade before. It's the most f-ing back-weighted sword I've ever seen. I swear the balance point is a foot past the pommel - the opposite direction from the blade.

[Lokhopkuen]

In otherwords Sifu Kisu, if you can't use the cheap POS, you didn't learn Teh Reelz from Taoverse Doody. :rolleyes:

I can use a paper cup to commit a violent act it simply would not be my first choice:D
Simon hit the nail on the head "wall hanger" and a nice one at that.

Here's an oldie but goodie:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5721.jpg
Hopefully "Master Killer" won't wipe a booger on this one...

[Lokhopkuen]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5736.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5740.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5728.jpg

[GETHIN]

Hi, thanks for sharing your pics, I just received some new Daos today and thought you might like to see them. Unlike my old ones these are very sharp.
The comments here about blunt/sharp are interesting !.
Best wishes.

[SimonM]

I still miss my Spring Autumn Sword. Got it in Longquan for cheap, heaviest blade I've ever swung.

Had to leave it in China when I came back to Canada because, heavy.

Will get it back from my inlaws if I decide to get a job in China next year.

Oh yeah, and you can get it from martialartsmart.com (http://http://www.martialartsmart.com/45s-50.html)

[SPJ]

yes. it is an old belief

each sword is made in pairs. or in two.

sisters

or mother and daughter

--

etc etc.

:)

[CYMac]

nice butterfly knife! looks heavy and sturdy too, I bet they both weight about 3lb each or something? I can feel the sturdiness already! cool ~

[CYMac]

This is another one we used in Taoism magic rituals too. It's the oldest one we bought and so I can tell you it have sustain through lots and lots of thrust too. This thing doesn't wobbles or anything, it's just as sturdy as it looks~ nice and very solid feeling! I just love the mid length swords so much.

[SPJ]

again

it said yue wang sword.

it is not rite.

yue wang gou jian

his sword was wider and longer and made of something other than steel

--

there was a tomb and a pond

pond for his sword. jian ci.

---

[CYMac]

again

it said yue wang sword.

it is not rite.

yue wang gou jian

his sword was wider and longer and made of something other than steel

--

there was a tomb and a pond

pond for his sword. jian ci.

---


of course, but don't you get the fact that most dragon well swords are like that nowadays? they put words of anything up on any blades by random too, that's how it is. Who will be so stupid to think they picked up a real Yue Wong's sword on the street for like $100 or something?! I think only idiots will think so! haha! Well, there are some typical words like : 七星劍, 太極劍, 青龍劍, ...etc,.. you can find these all over the place too.. so? They don't really mean anything.. it's just some words they put on for the sake of putting it up..............

[SPJ]

yes. yes.

all that glitters may not be gold.

or all that shines may not be stars.

---

:)

[CYMac]

Here are a few past pieces I have owned, they are from the ching dynasty as said by the collector who gave them to me. (the group picture one.. there are 3 of the same design and one double handed sword (damascus blade), there are one single one in the other photo is also a damascus blade as well.

Sorry I don't have any photos with them open up and these are the only pics I have left for memories.

[Lucas]

I use this sword to slay wizards
http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/BJK/AlbionAtlantean/AlbionAtlanteanBKA1152.jpg

[JamesC]

I'll raise you a Heron Marked Blade

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510EM5jhkWL._AA1000_.jpg



Btw, if you know what this sword is that makes you a geek.

[Lucas]

Just call me Rand Al'Tor....or Lan Mandragoran...

[SPJ]

oops

I meant all that glitters may not be pearl

all that shines may not be gold.

--

a real sharp or good sword is actually not shiny but with dull color

that was what I meant.

--

wow. any vampire or zombie slaying swords.

:)

[JamesC]

Just call me Rand Al'Tor....or Lan Mandragoran...

Bwahahaha...










I wish I had a heron marked blade. Made from the One Power. :(

[Lucas]

:p

me too!!!

[Taixuquan99]

Glorified mooseknuckle!

[Lucas]

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/moose_20knuckle.jpg

[Taixuquan99]

Is that Jim Jones sitting behind them?

[Lucas]

yes it is.

[CYMac]

Small and Bulk blade comparison, fun to try if your wrist is ready for it. The big blades are great for sword practice but they are not if your wrist is not strong enough because you don't feel you can control it well. When your wrist is strengthen up, you can use these blades do to your internal swords forms like taichi swords and they really feels great in the hand! Love the big bladeS~

[Lokhopkuen]

I use this sword to slay wizards
http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/BJK/AlbionAtlantean/AlbionAtlanteanBKA1152.jpg

Nice one Lucas

[SimonM]

This is another one we used in Taoism magic rituals too. It's the oldest one we bought and so I can tell you it have sustain through lots and lots of thrust too. This thing doesn't wobbles or anything, it's just as sturdy as it looks~ nice and very solid feeling! I just love the mid length swords so much.

ROTFL!!!! That IS the SAME SWORD that I got at Shaolin and broke doing a cutting test.

If you want to see some bad sword construction unscrew the pommel nut (it's easy with that one) and remove the hilt from the tang of the blade.

I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that you'll find the tang has been welded to the blade.

[CYMac]

ROTFL!!!! That IS the SAME SWORD that I got at Shaolin and broke doing a cutting test.

If you want to see some bad sword construction unscrew the pommel nut (it's easy with that one) and remove the hilt from the tang of the blade.

I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that you'll find the tang has been welded to the blade.

These swords are not meant for test-cut, are you having logic or what? If you want to go test-cut, buy some damascus blades which are sharpened to do the job. Sigh.. you are like an ox listening to great piano music, waste of time.

[Taixuquan99]

I'm thinking I wouldn't train at all with a blade that is welded onto a tang. Scary.

[SPJ]

ox listening to the piano or organ.

the ox may not understand the tune

but it can sense the emotions or picking up hues or cues from people.

--

the saying means that it is useless.

--

ox never shed tears

it is almost impossible.

but

the ox that shed tears

tai shang lao jun the supreme extreme old wisement(taoist priest in the heaven)

or the wisest old gentlement

he rides the ox that shed tears

--

if ox is doing good deeds, it can become human and have emotions and cries

if it does more good deeds, it can become semi god

and goes to heaven

or gets to be ridden by the oldest (as old as the beginning of the heave and the earth) and thus the wisest man.

---

in short, ox tearing not possible, but if---

---

[CYMac]

Okay, here is the sword disassembled, which is very typical style too, I don't see and weilding to the tang, it's a solid piece of steel from the blade to the tang and to the thread too. The blad is very sturdy, and strong as well just like I tested. Maybe you got ripped off at shaolin or something? Could be, because they are famous for rip off stuff.

[SPJ]

I meant

you have to find the people that knows your music

or zhi yin ren.

all your music is all wasted in playing.

or to no effect.

similarly

you have to find the people that knows you or understand your thoughts and emotions.

figuratively speaking.

--

know your music and know you.

that is hard to come by

--

so is finding the ox that cries

--

[CYMac]

I meant

you have to find the people that knows your music

or zhi yin ren.

all your music is all wasted in playing.

or to no effect.

similarly

you have to find the people that knows you or understand your thoughts and emotions.

figuratively speaking.

--

know your music and know you.

that is hard to come by

--

so is finding the ox that cries

--


Don't you get the point now? People are like ox, hearing some good music out there but they don't understand it and just used their way to understand it which is already a waste of a good piece. I am not referring to "my stuff", I am referring to the swords. Swords are good, people are not using their brain to understand enjoy it the way it is supposed to be, but some acted like butchers and started to do "test cuts" with swords that are not build for the purpose.. sigh.. what a joke.

I was like that too, when I am about 18-19.. but then I realized how naive I was afterward as well. There are many good swords out there, even the bulky ones that most kungfu people will complain about their size, weight, balance.. etc. One day, if you really can master it, you will love it, and you will know why they are made that way. If you don't know, you will say they are just a wall hanger. But if you do, you will love to use them a lot.

Not all swords are for fighting and cutting, don't be so shallow. Just the design of the sword is already a piece of attraction to let you understand more skills and techniques. Swords don't need to be sharp for you to enjoy them, their deisgns can already tell you a lot and teach you a lot.

[SimonM]

You may not think it's appropriate to test the efficacy of a weapon as a weapon but, then again, you never have to cut anything harder than your own imagination.

Suggesting that a person who specializes in swords knows less than you because they specialize in practical sword work, as opposed to LARPING about killing demons does nothing but alienate you from the other people you want to share with.

I thought it was funny, because I shared a story about a junk wall-hanger that I managed to destroy and then you posted a picture of the exact same junk wall-hanger.

But you just decided to get all insulting. And you call yourself a man of the cloth! :rolleyes:

[CYMac]

You may not think it's appropriate to test the efficacy of a weapon as a weapon but, then again, you never have to cut anything harder than your own imagination.

Suggesting that a person who specializes in swords knows less than you because they specialize in practical sword work, as opposed to LARPING about killing demons does nothing but alienate you from the other people you want to share with.

I thought it was funny, because I shared a story about a junk wall-hanger that I managed to destroy and then you posted a picture of the exact same junk wall-hanger.

But you just decided to get all insulting. And you call yourself a man of the cloth! :rolleyes:

So where is the welded part to the tang in my photo? Did you really got ripped off or what? Please clarify

[Taixuquan99]

I simply like swords, but the idea of one welded onto the tang is scary dangerous, even if just for a wall hanger, just because swords draw attention of people who like to practice with them.

That said, I think most martial artists being honest with themselves would say they own some weapons that are mediocre, but fine, and I'd suggest a period piece made out of steel when the period used bronze is superior to the weapons it is in mimicry of.

But, really, swords are neat.

[SimonM]

I simply like swords, but the idea of one welded onto the tang is scary dangerous, even if just for a wall hanger, just because swords draw attention of people who like to practice with them.

That said, I think most martial artists being honest with themselves would say they own some weapons that are mediocre, but fine, and I'd suggest a period piece made out of steel when the period used bronze is superior to the weapons it is in mimicry of.

But, really, swords are neat.

Agreed, and I've had a few junk swords in my time. That was the second-worst.

The best, well, it's a toss-up between my Qing dynasty Damascus steel jian (best antique), my copper-inlaid plum flower dragon well sword with blackened steel fittings (most beautiful), and the spring and autumn greatsword (best bone-crushing power, most impressive cutting).

Only one of them is available from the forum sponsor, martialartsmart, but the others aren't available this side of the pacific at all, so the fact that even one is available does our sponsor great credit. :D

[Taixuquan99]

Agreed, and I've had a few junk swords in my time. That was the second-worst.

The best, well, it's a toss-up between my Qing dynasty Damascus steel jian (best antique), my copper-inlaid plum flower dragon well sword with blackened steel fittings (most beautiful), and the spring and autumn greatsword (best bone-crushing power, most impressive cutting).

Only one of them is available from the forum sponsor, martialartsmart, but the others aren't available this side of the pacific at all, so the fact that even one is available does our sponsor great credit. :D

I'm jealos of you people with your swords. I have one at best mediocre baojian, a ninja sword I found in my garage, some boken, and practice swords I periodically make out of hickory.:mad:

[SimonM]

Sadly most of my good swords are at the inlaws place in China. It's ok though, I trust them to take care of the blades for me until I can afford to get back for them.

(Stupid economy)

[Lokhopkuen]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5778.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5779.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5782.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5786.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5788.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5793.jpg

[Lucas]

*drool*

Got to hand it to CYMac, this thread is cool.

[Lokhopkuen]

Found that in pile of fodder at a Sunday market in Bangkok for a few Bot (like $30 us)
1800's loong chun:D
I'm waiting for CYmac to post a picture of an actual sword instead of the Chinatown gift shop souvenirs:)

[Taixuquan99]

*drool*

Got to hand it to CYMac, this thread is cool.

I'm with you.

Hey, on the topic of weapons, that pickle barrel armor you worked on, did you use a particular type of armor, like a historical model?

If that makes any sense...

[Taixuquan99]

Found that in pile of fodder at a Sunday market in Bangkok for a few Bot (like $30 us)
1800's loong chun:D

Nice.

Hey, you still coming to KC sometime? I noticed an old message I missed saying you were, hoping I didn't miss ya.

Oh, yeah, KC here, if you didn't know. Just don't tell Lucas.

[CYMac]

Hey Lokhupkuen! That is a good sword, 杜丹劍~Peonies sword~

I have 3 just like that style, I say 80% alike! the blades are damascus folded steel instead, but it's very similar! Too bad those antiques stuff are all gone in 2007, but then my memories of them still exsist in my mind now! You just hook up all that good memories for me! Great pics!

[CYMac]

This is another etched sword, pretty stylish even though I don't like the idea of etching but it is still cool with the nice handle. The sword is heavy and bulky size but it is great for some sword styles if you do things like xingyi or something this is way cool, gives you the feeling of military drills!

[Lucas]

did you use a particular type of armor, like a historical model?

If that makes any sense...

17th-19th century samurai plate. Somewhat of a mixture. I was really following the plans my buddy drew up, he did all the research and development.

http://www.spaciousplanet.com/images/world/samurai-armor54812622118518462.jpeg

He even fashioned a chest out of Kozane style plates just to test the effectiveness against penetrating thrust or arrow type attack it was really good. due to the lacing and plate pattern you end up compressing the plates where ever the pressure is to be 2-3 plates worth of thickness. thats how you get those samurai with arrows bristling from their armor, they actually get caught by the kozane. but against blunt or length wise strikes it still smarts the ribs something fierce, plate ftw. We used a heat gun, leather gloves and a bucket of water to shape the 'plates' by hand.

Kozane:
http://www.wakagashira.com/images/scales.jpg

DONT TELL ME WHAT?!?!

[Lucas]

Found that in pile of fodder at a Sunday market in Bangkok for a few Bot (like $30 us)
1800's loong chun:D
I'm waiting for CYmac to post a picture of an actual sword instead of the Chinatown gift shop souvenirs:)

holy flying fuc batman!!?>!?!

[Lokhopkuen]

Nice.

Hey, you still coming to KC sometime? I noticed an old message I missed saying you were, hoping I didn't miss ya.

Oh, yeah, KC here, if you didn't know. Just don't tell Lucas.

BK??

I been n come back meng!

[Taixuquan99]

BK??

Keerect.


I been n come back meng!

Curses!

[GETHIN]

Hi CYMac,
thats a good guess !, they are supposed to be two and a quarter each, but I will check them when I get a chance.
Last year in Yongchun my shifu took me to a sword maker in the mountains and I watched him make some dao's for me. My hands, wrists, forearms were measured and they were made to fit... they're not the most beautiful dao's, but they really are a joy to use, and when I think of the sweat and hard work that guy went through for 200rmb...?!?!?
After this I think I'll have to call them little sister and big sister now !.

[Lokhopkuen]

Hey Lokhupkuen! That is a good sword, 杜丹劍~Peonies sword~

I have 3 just like that style, I say 80% alike! the blades are damascus folded steel instead, but it's very similar! Too bad those antiques stuff are all gone in 2007, but then my memories of them still exsist in my mind now! You just hook up all that good memories for me! Great pics!

Thank you brother;
I sacrificed so much learning and teaching martial arts in my life but for some kool karmic reason I find the coolest shizzle for cheep:) I recently sold some pieces that I didn't want to part with and still have a pretty sweet collection to practice and purr precious over.

[Lokhopkuen]

Keerect.



Curses!

I'll be back brother. Tell Mike and the bros I say hello!

[Lucas]

Hi CYMac,
thats a good guess !, they are supposed to be two and a quarter each, but I will check them when I get a chance.
Last year in Yongchun my shifu took me to a sword maker in the mountains and I watched him make some dao's for me. My hands, wrists, forearms were measured and they were made to fit... they're not the most beautiful dao's, but they really are a joy to use, and when I think of the sweat and hard work that guy went through for 200rmb...?!?!?
After this I think I'll have to call them little sister and big sister now !.

call your main hand big sister! since it gets more power and precision hehe

[Lokhopkuen]

Hi CYMac,
thats a good guess !, they are supposed to be two and a quarter each, but I will check them when I get a chance.
Last year in Yongchun my shifu took me to a sword maker in the mountains and I watched him make some dao's for me. My hands, wrists, forearms were measured and they were made to fit... they're not the most beautiful dao's, but they really are a joy to use, and when I think of the sweat and hard work that guy went through for 200rmb...?!?!?
After this I think I'll have to call them little sister and big sister now !.

Thank you for sharing very nice.

[CYMac]

Hi GETHIN... wow, that's very nice! 200rmb.. labor really worth nothing in china..! Yes I do agree the good swords sometimes comes very cheap because people don't know how to treasure it and they see it as rubbish and toss them on the street for sale.. but it's also why we are all having good stuff in our collections too! haha! If things are all "auction" with high price, I bet no kungfu people will get one in their room.. only the rich business man will want to bid and play those auction games to raise the price higher and higher...

[YMC]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5778.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5779.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5782.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5786.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5788.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/_MG_5793.jpg

I'm sorry to say that this is not a Qing antique, but rather a common replica sold in flea markets and on E-bay. The insert edge is etched/grounded on. There is no evidence of pattern welding (what people erroneously call Damascus pattern). Not to say that it isn't an attractive sword, but it really isn't a real antique.

In fact, the 3 jian that CYMac posted are also consistent with replicas common in flea markets and E-bay. As there are no photos of the blades I obviously can't say if something like a real blade with modern fittings didn't occur with his collection, but the scabbard and fittings have all the hallmarks of modern replicas.

[CYMac]

For the sword above, I do believe it is a ching dynasty one but just that the sword doesn't have a folded steel blade doesn't make it not an antique as well. There are lower quality blades in the ching dynasty. So not all blades are like those damascus blades style.

I do bought some similar ones in the past and yes they are claimed 1800 products as well. It might be not something really fancy, but it is 1800 no doubt though. There are replicas of these indeed. I do see some on e-bay before, but those are way cheaper quality if you see them in person. I can tell by looking at the blade color and the fittings, those are no match.

[CYMac]

Now this is a replica of the ching dynasty swords design. I know this is a common deisgn that you can buy online too but the sword blade is sturdy and not flexible and so it gives the sword more weight and solid feeling too. The sword is very "thin and narrow" styled and also very long as well. This sword is actually quite long! haha! I don't like the way the fittings are made and assembled because they get loosen over use and when you tighten it too much you just damage the fittings by over-tightening and squeezing it together like a playdoo.

[YMC]

To CYMac

There are indeed very late Qing and Republican/WW2 era mono-steel swords. I've owned a few in my time.

However, the pieces that you and Lophuken both posted are very consistent with replicas that are aged artificially and sold on the market as antiques. I wouldn't know how to convince you otherwise as I have no credentials that anyone would care about; but I have been an collector of antique Chinese weaponry for over 7 years. For instance, on Lophuken's sword, the etching of a false central plate is a classic tactic of modern makers to make people think that the piece is of traditional sanmei (trilaminar) construction.

May I suggest that anyone who cares to post these pieces on places like vikingsword.com/vb or swordforum.com or grtc.org and ask around for the opinions of recognized experts in this niche field?

In the mean time, I will try to take a few pictures to try to illustrate the differences between these modern replicas and the real thing.

[Lokhopkuen]

To CYMac

There are indeed very late Qing and Republican/WW2 era mono-steel swords. I've owned a few in my time.

However, the pieces that you and Lophuken both posted are very consistent with replicas that are aged artificially and sold on the market as antiques. I wouldn't know how to convince you otherwise as I have no credentials that anyone would care about; but I have been an collector of antique Chinese weaponry for over 7 years. For instance, on Lophuken's sword, the etching of a false central plate is a classic tactic of modern makers to make people think that the piece is of traditional sanmei (trilaminar) construction.

May I suggest that anyone who cares to post these pieces on places like vikingsword.com/vb or swordforum.com or grtc.org and ask around for the opinions of recognized experts in this niche field?


In the mean time, I will try to take a few pictures to try to illustrate the differences between these modern replicas and the real thing.

I wouldn't dare try to convince a person who knows everything of anything;)

[Lokhopkuen]

Now this is a replica of the ching dynasty swords design. I know this is a common deisgn that you can buy online too but the sword blade is sturdy and not flexible and so it gives the sword more weight and solid feeling too. The sword is very "thin and narrow" styled and also very long as well. This sword is actually quite long! haha! I don't like the way the fittings are made and assembled because they get loosen over use and when you tighten it too much you just damage the fittings by over-tightening and squeezing it together like a playdoo.

This is the only sword you've posted that I like.


I own one:D

[bawang]

you guys only collect the pusy small sword, real men collect huge han dynasty two handed sword

[Lokhopkuen]

Real men lyke pusy

[bawang]

you hobbyists dont buy the two meter long han swords because its too heavy for your soft lady hands

this is a real sword

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Sword_of_Gou_Jian.jpg

[YMC]

Ah, found some photos in my files of a piece no longer in my collection (parted ways a few years ago when I essentially sold off my entire collection). A very unusual piece actually:

Chang jian, blade ~30inches with a handle large enough for hand and half grip.
It is of sanmei construction (high carbon central plate with softer cheeks sandwiching it).

Late era piece, very late Qing to Republican favoring Republican. European influenced ricasso at the forte that reads longchuan jian on one side and flowers on the other. There is residual chrome at the hilt, which is something one commonly finds on Republican era pieces to prevent rust. There has been soldering material put into delamination at areas of cold shuts.

Among the most interesting thing about this piece is 1) the slight curvature of the blade, which may be a forging error, but something that is correctable and thus maybe intentional to the jian to give it a dao like cutting arc and 2) the overlapped soldered tang with nut and thread. As we know, Chinese swords are typically peened at the pommel, making this a very unusual feature. The welded tang is also highly unusual, something commonly seen in Middle Eastern swords, but rare in Chinese swords.

Not the most beautiful thing in the world, with lots of atypical features, but the real reason why I'm posting it, is to illustrate the metallurgical details that I can't begin to describe, but hopefully will be apparent to differentiate it from the fakes on the antiques market.

[CYMac]

Bawang, you must not like this then, It's a puscy small sword..! haha!

This is a stone sword, fully one piece construction, very sturdy and heavy weighted for it's size, about 2-3lb? and it is just about as long as my forearm. Very cool piece in my collection and we use it for Taoism magic purpose.

[Darthlawyer]

I just love how someone can be so dense as to not see the inherent contradiction between taoism and magic.

[CYMac]

I just love how someone can be so dense as to not see the inherent contradiction between taoism and magic.

There are no contradiction between taoism and magic. Taoism started with magic from the beginning. The person who officiallized Taoism - Jeung Dao Ling, started with TAoism magic and he is famous for doing exorcism as well. What is so contradicting? Are you missing something in your history book?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

There are no contradiction between taoism and magic. Taoism started with magic from the beginning. The person who officiallized Taoism - Jeung Dao Ling, started with TAoism magic and he is famous for doing exorcism as well. What is so contradicting? Are you missing something in your history book?

CYMAC, please understand that there are Taoists, Philosophers and Historians alike on this board who notice significant differences between your particular brand of Taoism and the essential teachings as found in several classics, such as the Nei-Yeh, the Dao-De-Jing, the Zhuang-Zi, etc.

Even ancient Chinese medical texts which address demonology are at odds with your definitions and practice; furthermore, without going into the Daoist tradition of "Giving without expecting anything in return," there are important classical treatises on ethics which frown upon many of your business practices.

As far as modern ethics goes, I cite the following: You once said that you ran a temple, but it was for-profit, ie. not non-profit, ie. a business. You said it was because you couldn't find a third person to collaborate with in order to make your temple a non-profit organization/charity.

If your heart had really been set on setting up a legitimate temple, you would have found that third person; instead, by going the route of profit and self-aggrandizement, you've demonstrated behavior that runs counter to some of the most fundamental tenets of Daoist practice. As a simple example, consider verse 24 of the Dao De Jing.


Anyway, back to swords! That is quite the nice ceremonial stone sword. Do you know what kind of stone it's made from? How much of the coloration is natural and how much of it is added on?

It is my understanding that Ideally, stone swords are made of Jade.

[CYMac]

CYMAC, please understand that there are Taoists, Philosophers and Historians alike on this board who notice significant differences between your particular brand of Taoism and the essential teachings as found in several classics, such as the Nei-Yeh, the Dao-De-Jing, the Zhuang-Zi, etc.

Even ancient Chinese medical texts which address demonology are at odds with your definitions and practice; furthermore, without going into the Daoist tradition of "Giving without expecting anything in return," there are important classical treatises on ethics which frown upon many of your business practices.

As far as modern ethics goes, I cite the following: You once said that you ran a temple, but it was for-profit, ie. not non-profit, ie. a business. You said it was because you couldn't find a third person to collaborate with in order to make your temple a non-profit organization/charity.

If your heart had really been set on setting up a legitimate temple, you would have found that third person; instead, by going the route of profit and self-aggrandizement, you've demonstrated behavior that runs counter to some of the most fundamental tenets of Daoist practice. As a simple example, consider verse 24 of the Dao De Jing.


Anyway, back to swords! That is quite the nice ceremonial stone sword. Do you know what kind of stone it's made from? How much of the coloration is natural and how much of it is added on?

It is my understanding that Ideally, stone swords are made of Jade.

I totally understand what you say about those "phillosophy Taoist" but that is NOT what Taoism is in China, and Taoism IS from China in human history as well. So you can't persuade me on comprimising on that. I can just say these "philosophy Taoist" are missing out a lot of stuff.

Okay, maybe I should give you this reference which I think you will believe more. Even in Wudang mountain, they are Quan Zhen sect, which I don't like myself on the Taoism side, but then, they STILL HAVE MAGIC in their lineage as well. Look at their temple, they held magical rituals too. Don't you know?

Yes, those text you mentioned don't talk about magic, BECAUSE they are not Taoism advance magic books! You need to read things like the Taoism Canon and stuff like that to see it. You are reading BABY BOOKS of Taoism you know? If you want to study Taoism history in depth, try to search for 道藏 and you find the whole encyclopedia of Taoism is about TAOISM MAGIC. All flooded with spells, FU (talisman or the magical writtings), magic cultivation, and rituals and so on. Famous huge ceremonies done in the past for the king are like Gold Ceremony, Jade CEremony and the Yellow CEremony 金籙大齋, 玉籙大齋, 黃籙大齋 and so on.. What are these? They are MAGIC in Taoism. If western Taoism think there is no magic in Taoism, it's their responsibility to get educated more before making such statement or else they are just "uneducated on the subject" and doesn't makes them right even they blind fold themselves though. Don't try to convince me on "there are two different paths". There aren't. There is only one, and that is TAOISM. Taoism is Taoism.

--

Regarding the sword, no, I don't know much about the make of the sword but I would love to if someone can tell~~! I have always wanted to know the details of some pieces but then they are just hard to tell or even test~ I won't want to cut open the sword and look~ haha!

Jade swords are cool, I have 2 white jade dagger here too, they are cool but one broke during an accident!! argh~

[David Jamieson]

I just love how someone can be so dense as to not see the inherent contradiction between taoism and magic.

what?

Actually, there is both intrinsic and extrinsic connection to alchemy and sorcery that is completely inherent to Taoism as a practice.

[Lucas]

He who was formally known as KC Elbows; I forgot to mention we used the outer lining of parachute cord for our lacing. For what ever plate pattern you go with you can find lacing patterns that were used traditionally. Or just make your own. But that cord lining worked great. Traditionally it was silk cord.

[David Jamieson]

Traditionally, chutes were silk too. :(

[CYMac]

This is another piece, a more common and modern deisgn but the blade is sturdy and heavy which does not flex at all. When you tap the blade on metal you hear the very crispy ding ding sound, haha! I like this word for practicing because it is giving you a heavy blade with a non-flexing style while it is not too bulky too. The sword was beloved before I can master the bulky big one~ the word on the blad is "Lily (flower) sword", there is also a meaning there.. the word for lily, 百合 also means "everything harmonizing" or "everything coming together" which also means good luck coming and things are going well and prosperous as well. This is why the sword is named that way, just to bring good luck and harmony to the place that hangs the sword.

Words on swords are often with "good luck" symbolism in the past.. and so that is why people are sometims confused with what's on the blade and they can't make out why it is there.. now this is one mystery solved!

[SPJ]

you hobbyists dont buy the two meter long han swords because its too heavy for your soft lady hands

this is a real sword

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Sword_of_Gou_Jian.jpg

yes. that is a real or old sword.

:cool:

[CYMac]

This is the heavy bulk sword as I posted before with higher quality photo. The thickness of the blade is showing int he last picture.

[CYMac]

Here is a double handed sword. Quite a heavy blade with good handle~ Love it!

[taai gihk yahn]

If you want to study Taoism history in depth, try to search for 道藏 and you find the whole encyclopedia of Taoism is about TAOISM MAGIC. All flooded with spells, FU (talisman or the magical writtings), magic cultivation, and rituals and so on. Famous huge ceremonies done in the past for the king are like Gold Ceremony, Jade CEremony and the Yellow CEremony 金籙大齋, 玉籙大齋, 黃籙大齋 and so on..

THis is one of those rituals
http://users.erols.com/dantao/Greatbear.html

[CYMac]

THis is one of those rituals
http://users.erols.com/dantao/Greatbear.html

Actually no, this link only show you one 罡步, steppings, in Taoism. The stepping here is indeed very simple and basic one as well. It's like "one move" in kungfu. A ritual consist of many moves to make a form complete. So in Taoism, a ritual is composed of many things. Including some incense magic, spells, handsign, scriptures, steppings, magic tools like flags, swords, the commander's block, etc,.. and it also require the taoist to have special cultivation to be able to "use" the tools as well.

Good reference link though.

[CYMac]

TGY --

金籙大齋宿啟儀

　

　　　各禮師存念如法

　　　東方

　　九炁青天，明星大神。煥照東鄉，洞映九門。轉燭陽光，掃穢除氛。開明童子，備衛我軒。收魔束妖，上對帝 君。奉承正道，赤書玉文。九天符命，攝龍驛傳。普天安鎮，我得飛仙。
　　　南方
　　南方丹天，三炁流光。熒星轉燭，洞照太陽。上有赤精，開明靈童。總御火兵，備守三宮。斬邪束妖，翦截魔 兇。北帝所承，鋒火八衝。流鈴交煥，敢有不從。正道流行，我享上功。保天安鎮，億劫無終。

　　　西方

　　七炁之天，太白流精。光耀金門，洞照太冥。中有赤皇，號曰帝靈。保神安鎮，衛我身形。斷絕邪源，王道正 明。宮殿整肅，三景齊并。道合自然，飛升紫庭。靈寶玉字，溥惠萬生。功加一切，天地咸寧。
　　　北方
　　北方玄天，五炁徘徊。辰星煥爛，光耀太微。黑靈尊神，飛仙羽衣。備守五門，檢精捕非。敢有干試，豁落斬 摧。玉符所告，神真八威。邪門閉塞，正道明開。映照我身，三光洞輝。策空駕景，舉形仙飛。
　　　中央
　　黃中理炁，總統玄真。鎮星吐輝，流煥九天。開明童子，一十二人。元炁陽精，炎上朱煙。洞照天下，及臣等 身。百邪摧落，攝鬼萬千。中山神咒，溥天自然。五靈安鎮，身飛上仙。
　　　嗚法鼓二十四通
　　無上三天玄元始三炁太上老君，召出臣身中三五功曹、左右官使者、左右捧香驛龍騎吏、侍香金童、傳言散花 玉女、五帝直符直日香官，各三十六人出。出者，嚴裝顯服，冠帶垂纓。關啟玄壇土地，方域神真。臣今宿啟告齋 ，建壇闡事。謹為入意其諸丹悃，具載緘謄。願得太上至真道炁、靈寶瑞光下降，流入臣等身中。令臣所啟之誠， 速達徑詣至真無極大道、三清上聖，昊天玉皇上帝御前。
　　　請稱法位
　　具法位臣，某今故燒香，願以是香功德，上祝皇圖鞏固，聖壽綿長。薰陶仁厚之風，垂拱太平之治。溥為藩屏 王侯、土地官長。臣等三師五友，異代學真，谷隱巖棲，門徒祭酒，以至三軍萬姓，天下人民，動植飛潛，無邊含 識，歸身歸神歸命太上十方靈寶自然至真無極大道。特乞赦原三業六根，無邊釁咎，得親正教，同沐深恩。身得道 真，歌詠太平。同躋仁壽，逍遙無為。永與道合，所啟玄感，應聲上御至真無極道前。
　　　起敬讚

　　　唱十方

　　　禮足，各長跪，歸命懺悔

　　臣法眾等，至心歸身歸神歸命十方無極大道太上靈寶天尊。恭望洪慈，洞垂巨澤，溥降洪恩。臣聞混元祖炁， 常清靜以為宗；金籙儀文，匪齋盟而莫格。將感通於上聖，先滌蕩於纖瑕。庶竭忱誠，以虔祀事。猶慮臣等智淪象 罔，識染紛葩。精氣神混合之真，業山未破；身心口流吹之妄，定水俄波。動積過尤，無邊無量。仰祈矜憫，俯賜 赦原，使臣等奏對無魔，存思合道。會萬真於帝所，綿億載於皇圖。教法興隆，振道風於遐邇；顯幽慶幸，依聖日 之光華。玉葉安嘉，金湯永固。臣法眾等至心稽首，禮謝無上正真三寶。
　　　三啟頌
　　　三禮
　　　重稱法位
　　具位臣，某與臨壇法眾等，謹同誠上啟虛無自然至真無極大道大羅元始天尊，太上道君，太上老君，昊天玉皇 上帝，紫微上宮天皇大帝，紫微中天北極大帝，后土皇地祇，東華南極、西靈北真、玄都玉京金闕七寶層臺紫微上 宮靈寶至真明皇道君，至真諸君丈人，十方已得道大聖眾，上相上宰、上保上傅，少保少傅、四司五帝、十二仙卿 ，三十六部尊經，玄中大法師，三天大法師，紫微垣帝座星君，太微垣少微垣帝座星君，皇帝本命星君，帝座照臨 星宰，皇太子本命星君，宮垣照臨星曜，三界官屬一切威靈。臣等幸以宿緣，生逢道運。總圖校錄，誓流演於仙科 ；保國寧家，惟贊襄於道化。按瑤壇而宿建，遵瓊笈以虔析。鏘鏘珮玉之和，秩秩鼓鐘之序。帝臨無貳，天聽非遙 。更冀申飭神真，降差官將，蕩除氛厭，翦截邪蹤，營衛齋壇，道迎景福。使臣等朝修默感，念慮合真。萬象呈輝 ，臨照密迥於皇極；三乘啟蘊，希微妙演於瓊科。神化洋洋，靈光赫赫，明晨行道，續更敷言。謹啟 以聞。
　　　十念
　　　存神燒香
　　香官使者，左右龍虎君，侍香諸靈官。當令臣向來宿啟瑤壇之所，自然生金液丹碧芝英，百靈眾真交會在此。 香火鱸前，上願天鑒宸衷，尊安皇極。玉振金聲之合序，瓊輪羽蓋之臨軒。福集邦畿，恩覃宇宙。十方仙童，玉女 接侍。蘭煙傳臣向來所啟之誠，速達徑御，至真無極大道，三清上聖，昊天玉皇上帝御前。
　　　出堂頌


This is a copy of the golden ceremony 金籙's beginning. The ceremony consist of MANY things like the above.. and usually one ceremony like the above takes about 1hr or so to complete. We have done it int he past years in 2007-2008. It is a heck a lot of work. This is the "opening ceremony" only.. there is a morning, a noon, an evening, and also closing, and also some smaller ceremonies as well.. there are many FU (talisman) and stuff in the ceremony as well which aren't here. If you have the pdf of the Taoism canon, you will see all that. It's quite open too.

The golden ceremony is for harmonizing energy with nature, bringing good luck, fortune, prosperity, and also good health.

The jade ceremony is for the ancestors and passed away people who deserve to be honeored in the past..

The yellow ceremony is for the normal passed away souls but usually done for groups such as people who die in an air plane accident, or the 911 incident, and so on..

It's common practice in the old days since long time ago..

[taai gihk yahn]

Actually no, this link only show you one 罡步, steppings, in Taoism. The stepping here is indeed very simple and basic one as well. It's like "one move" in kungfu. A ritual consist of many moves to make a form complete. So in Taoism, a ritual is composed of many things. Including some incense magic, spells, handsign, scriptures, steppings, magic tools like flags, swords, the commander's block, etc,.. and it also require the taoist to have special cultivation to be able to "use" the tools as well.
this is only one stepping pattern from the entire ritual; when my sifu recreated it, based on his study of the Dao Jang, there were other aspects as well;

[CYMac]

this is only one stepping pattern from the entire ritual; when my sifu recreated it, based on his study of the Dao Jang, there were other aspects as well;

But having said that, I hope your sifu know that the dao jang (taoism canon) have many wrong things and fake things as well just like the famous 雲岌七籤 which is famous for false Taoism stuff. In the past, there is a saying, 法不傳六耳, magic of Taoism never teach when the 3rd people is here. So in the old days, what you can find in books are 70% incorrect or incomplete. 30% is the real thing, and that's why Taoism real magic is seldom possessed by people. Many people only can do rituals like a show, but no effects. It's how Chinese pass the magic on, too bad. Most real magic aren't passed down with any written text too.

*note, that the big dipper you have posted is also missing 2 hidden stars as well. In Taoism people seldom know about this. You either step 7 steps for the post-heaven or if you want to go pre-heaven you must step 9 steps. So...... anyway :)

[taai gihk yahn]

But having said that, I hope your sifu know that the dao jang (taoism canon) have many wrong things and fake things as well just like the famous 雲岌七籤 which is famous for false Taoism stuff. In the past, there is a saying, 法不傳六耳, magic of Taoism never teach when the 3rd people is here. So in the old days, what you can find in books are 70% incorrect or incomplete. 30% is the real thing, and that's why Taoism real magic is seldom possessed by people. Many people only can do rituals like a show, but no effects. It's how Chinese pass the magic on, too bad. Most real magic aren't passed down with any written text too.
he uses the Dao Jang as a reference book; but as he always likes to say, "books don't talk back", meaning that u can't use the book to verify what it is saying; his actual learning came via 1-1 transmission from various teachers (his root / heart sifu is Master Koo (http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html))


*note, that the big dipper you have posted is also missing 2 hidden stars as well. In Taoism people seldom know about this. You either step 7 steps for the post-heaven or if you want to go pre-heaven you must step 9 steps. So...... anyway :)
yes, in the taiji form of our linneage, we understand that these are "missing" as well, as for us, the progression of "Cloud Hands" is actually "Bear Walk" (or "Dipper Walk") - the movement is done 3x in the form, and each time in different ways, w/the one of the missing stars (steps) replaced each time; of course, I am sure u understand why these steps r added in this order, in keeping w the alchemical macro-structure of the form;

in fact, in terms of the alchemy of the taiji form, if one understands it as a means of alchemical transformation, is "missing" other things, for example, there r 2 hidden "dahn bin" / Single Whip - altho in our Dan Tao lineage, we use the characters 丹 變, which translates as "Elixir Transformation" - this is based on my sifus research of various root sources, one of which is an older taiji manual which gives this as an alternate nomenclature; based on his understanding of the movement itself, this version makes sense from an alchemical perspective (in fact, if u look at the posture done "correctly", ur body is analagous to the character 丹 :eek:; THAT's alchemy!)

if u want to talk about "energetic healing" and missing stars, no doubt u r familiar with The 12 Celestial Points of Ma Dahn Yeuhng; no doubt u also r aware of the location of the "missing" 13th point...

[TenTigers]

CYMAC, when you do exorcism, do you ever stab gwais with your sword and then put in fire, or sometimes actually use your own hand and do the same?
Just wondering if you use the same technique as someone I used to know.

[CYMac]

CYMAC, when you do exorcism, do you ever stab gwais with your sword and then put in fire, or sometimes actually use your own hand and do the same?
Just wondering if you use the same technique as someone I used to know.

No we do not burn demons or ghost on fire. To kill ghost is easy, one strike one spell and chop it is dead. (of course not everybody can do it, it's only "me" here.) If our student have to chop and kill a ghost, they need special cultivation to get the power up and then they can do a strike and kill them with ease. no need to burn. Fire is earthy thing, it can't kill a ghost which is unearthy. You need to use something stronger, and in Taoism, that is FAAT. the magical power.

--

RE- TGY, I will get to you tonight, busy day today~

[YouKnowWho]

To kill ghost is easy,
How can you kill something that's already dead? Are you saying that

- Death is only the beginning?
- When the hell gate open, death will walk among us.

As far as I know, if you kill a ghost in US, there is no crime involved. Not too sure about Canada. :confused:

[bawang]

ghosts are people too

this guy is a murderer

[YouKnowWho]

CYMac:

For those ghosts that you have killed so far, do they had clothes on? The reason that I ask because the clothes is "material" and not "spirit". The spirit may be able to travel through time and space, but material like clothes can't. If we can see ghosts, those ghosts should all be naked. What's your opinion on this?

[CYMac]

How can you kill something that's already dead? Are you saying that

- Death is only the beginning?
- When the hell gate open, death will walk among us.

As far as I know, if you kill a ghost in US, there is no crime involved. Not too sure about Canada. :confused:

LOL!

I am talking about ghosts as in 鬼 not 鬼佬~ HAHA! :)

Ghosts are not "dead', they are just living beings in another realm. they can still be killed and that means they can't exsist anymore. Not even in any form. Ghosts are "physical" in their own realm though, just that we see them as non-physical. Anyway.. too off topic here...

But there is no "hell gate" in Taoism. There is no hell either. There is only a Yang realm that we live on now and a yin realm that the "ghost" live in. That's the 2 realms on planet earth. There are some planets with multi realms as well. aynway. not going to go too far... back to swords!

[lkfmdc]

why hasn't this been moved or locked? :rolleyes:

[CYMac]

he uses the Dao Jang as a reference book; but as he always likes to say, "books don't talk back", meaning that u can't use the book to verify what it is saying; his actual learning came via 1-1 transmission from various teachers (his root / heart sifu is Master Koo (http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html))


yes, in the taiji form of our linneage, we understand that these are "missing" as well, as for us, the progression of "Cloud Hands" is actually "Bear Walk" (or "Dipper Walk") - the movement is done 3x in the form, and each time in different ways, w/the one of the missing stars (steps) replaced each time; of course, I am sure u understand why these steps r added in this order, in keeping w the alchemical macro-structure of the form;

in fact, in terms of the alchemy of the taiji form, if one understands it as a means of alchemical transformation, is "missing" other things, for example, there r 2 hidden "dahn bin" / Single Whip - altho in our Dan Tao lineage, we use the characters 丹 變, which translates as "Elixir Transformation" - this is based on my sifus research of various root sources, one of which is an older taiji manual which gives this as an alternate nomenclature; based on his understanding of the movement itself, this version makes sense from an alchemical perspective (in fact, if u look at the posture done "correctly", ur body is analagous to the character 丹 :eek:; THAT's alchemy!)

if u want to talk about "energetic healing" and missing stars, no doubt u r familiar with The 12 Celestial Points of Ma Dahn Yeuhng; no doubt u also r aware of the location of the "missing" 13th point...

Okay, with hearing all that from you, I am sure your sifu is not into Taoism. He could be into alchemy, but not Taoism magic. That's totally okay though, it's just another path. I am not into that path.

Steppings are magic, not alchemy. It's the alchemy people who incorporated them into the practice like in 雲笈七籤. That's commonly done in the past, but people don't really get the real steppings magic power though.

First of all, alchemy have no magical power to open the channel to activate the steppings and that is fact. So they become a stepping art or dance only, not magic anymore. If you see real steppings, you will know what I am talking about. The master who do stepping must open the magical power and drill it into the ground and you will see the whole stepping area being brighten up and you will feel the energy twirling in as well. I have done steppings for a westerner to feel before and they felt that instant fire burning hot just standing beside me too. It's not an art form, it's real magic. There are FU in the steppings as well. But in alchemy practice, you have no way to run a FU because there is no magic involved. So.........

To my understanding of what you told me, the "research" or whatever you call that should be just mix and match of things but what your sifu is seeking for is indeed the magic of Taoism and not alchemy...

Oh, let me make this clear though, I am not being insulting or anything, I am just stating the facts and difference between the two. Alchemy practice is more like chi gung inclined with some difference. Magic is totally another world. For example in magic practice you learn to do soul travelling and you can go to different realms and so on. In magica practice of Taoism, you CAN proof what is real and what is fake, such as there are many FAKE deities and immortals in the world and there are common ones.. but in magic practice, you can SEE which is real too, because you can have the ability to go to different realms to check things out and really know if things are real or not. These truth can only be known by the one who achieved the level of cultivation, and it's secret that you cannot tell people. So I can't share much except for these.. but I am pretty sure your sifu is kinda more seeking for these kinds of things rather than the alchemy path from what I am seeing. Maybe I am wrong, but who knows..?

*common fake god in Chinese culture is "General Kawn", "Zhuge Liang", "Money God Jiu Gung Ming",.. and so on. Yes, they are fake because they are not really cultvated in Taoism or anything, they just got up the "list of god" because the king or people like them and they frame them up only.. it's like people honor them.. but doesn't makes them a god or deities. Of course, that is not enough, and so in Taoism magic cultivation we learn to go elsewhere with soul traveling to check them out and see if they really exsist or not. Some deiites that does exsist, you can find them too.

Okay, I am not going too star trek here.. let's get back to swords~

(those who don't get a word of what I am saying or think I am crazy, it's okay, just ignore)

[CYMac]

CYMac:

For those ghosts that you have killed so far, do they had clothes on? The reason that I ask because the clothes is "material" and not "spirit". The spirit may be able to travel through time and space, but material like clothes can't. If we can see ghosts, those ghosts should all be naked. What's your opinion on this?

Hi...

from my expereince - Ghosts are not naked, they are also not non-physical as well. They are not physical in our world to us, but they are very physical in their realm instead. They have food, clothing, society and everything there. It's like another world here, just that we don't see, touch or interact with them. It's hard to understand but in Taoism, simply speaking there are 2 realms on planet earth. we call them one yin and one yang. We live in the yang and they are in the yin. When ghost pass away in their world naturally, they cycle back to the yang to be reborn as human.. when we die, we pass on to the yin and born there again. That's how the life cycles. There are clothing in their world of course, even other things as well. It's not like "no-tech" days there man..

I have did tons of exorcism and ghost busting in the past and that is why I can proof everything to myself and be so sure to tell you this. There are many illusion for thoes who aren't cultivated right and so what they see are not real but illusions instead. I have a friend in the past who is a maoshan guy in hk, he cultivated too much evil sorcery and turn out he got crazy and he was seeing all the fake things like ghost sticking their head out from the wall, licking bbq pork sauces that drip..etc,.. these are fake. Yes, he got mental illness because of the wrong practice..

So it's important that you get the RIGHT cultivation with ZERO evil energy or negative energy to see the real thing. Not much can do it nowadays. New agers for sure can't go that way too because their energy and stuff are all mix pot of everything and it cannot be pure anymore.. and so that's why in my lineage I only allow people to go one path, no mix.

By the way, we can see ghosts when we need to as well, but they are not naked. (even my students can, and they also proof this as well)

[YouKnowWho]

Ghosts are not naked,

How can a 1000 years old ghost, his clothes is not rotten? :confused:

[CYMac]

How can a 1000 years old ghost, his clothes is not rotten? :confused:

Use your logic man, do you wear the same clothing as you did in 3 yrs old today? Come on! We are real beings here, not people on drama / TV! We don't wear the same clothing all the time and not need to go to washroom in the 3 hrs! We are alive.. and so are ghosts! They have to pee, ****, eat, sleep as well.. so why don't they need to bath and change??? um... :)

[YouKnowWho]

We are alive.. and so are ghosts! They have to pee, ****, eat, sleep as well.. so why don't they need to bath and change??? um... :)

That's something I didn't know before. It's always good to learn something new everyday.

[PalmStriker]

I use this sword to slay wizards
http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/BJK/AlbionAtlantean/AlbionAtlanteanBKA1152.jpg
"Now that's a knife", I mean, sword. A nice Templar cut.:D

[TenTigers]

every gwai I have seen was neither clothed nor naked, they just...were. You don't "see" them in the usual sense, at least I don't. Different people see things differently.
some were critters..odd looking things that looked like trillobites...

[TenTigers]

why hasn't this been moved or locked? :rolleyes:
look, just because you don't believe in exorcisms, ghosts, angels, and tree gnomes, or wonderful sea nymphs who have miraculous powers that can transform a mortal man into a great warrior, who can summon all the powers of the known and unknown universe to design really nice boots with high heels and buckles and straps that go all the way up to my thighs...um...uh...yeah. This thread should be locked.

[CYMac]

every gwai I have seen was neither clothed nor naked, they just...were. You don't "see" them in the usual sense, at least I don't. Different people see things differently.
some were critters..odd looking things that looked like trillobites...

Seriously speaking though, we do "see' them when we have to do exorcism job for people. That is a must because you have to know where they are in order to bust them effectively. I know some people do exorcism without having to see them at all but that's how I was too (before) but now that I can possess the ability to see them, then it become much easier to end the case successfully without any problems at all.

The critters things you mention are not ghosts, but probably they are "goo". 蠱. There are "goo" that are spiritual and some are physical as well. in the old days, people use (there are still there now) many insects and poisonous stuff to mix into a pot of "goo" and use that to cast evil magic on people and poison people by distance without having them to consume it directly. Now, people have magic that can summon non-physical living things to do the same job and those might be what you are seeing.

Ghosts are easy to deal with because they are often very easy to exorcise. Anyway.. I have just put together a file today and it might explains some of my TERMS to you and so the vocab can be understood easier, hope you like it:

http://makchingyuen.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/encyclopediaoftaoism_v1_21.pdf

[CYMac]

This is called the "Dragon Head God Hitting Whip" 龍頭打神鞭, originally a weapon of famous Geung Tai Gung, a war strategist in the past who fought for the chow dynasty and overthrown the evil king.. Anyway, this pair of whip is super heavy and I am sure it weight about 10lb or more each. I have a pair of modern made garn and they are said to be 5lb each and I don't see that is anything like this here.. I mean.. the modern one is also heavy but this is REALLY heavy! Love it!

Can't master it before.. but I can do it now.. harsh!

[CYMac]

This is the pair of modern "garn" I use, both are solidly build as well and they are about 5lb each. Quite surprising to see them so heavy at first impression when I got them in 2009, but then when I got stronger, I mastered them and so moved on to the double whip above. This is STRONG. (I must use bawang's favorite phrase here!)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I totally understand what you say about those "phillosophy Taoist" but that is NOT what Taoism is in China

It's more accurate to say “NOT ONLY” what Taoism is in China. The Philosophy of Taoism comes from China as well, and permeates throughout Taoist inner alchemy. It also penetrates far deeper into the Chinese martial arts than Magico-Ritualistic Taoism.


I can just say these "philosophy Taoist" are missing out a lot of stuff.

By choice, not by ignorance.

First off, consider the following passages found in Sun Tzu's art of war (written between 476–221BC) which, as is readily apparent to anyone who's read both the Art of War and the Tao Te Ching, contains many related ideas:

The chapter translated as “The Nine Grounds” (九地 ) or “The Nine Situations” contains the following instructions:

凡為客之道，深入則專，主人不克，掠于饒野，三軍足食，謹養而無勞，併氣積力，運兵計謀，為不可測，投之無 所往，死且不北，死焉不得，士人盡力。兵士甚陷則不懼，無所往則固，深入則拘，不得已則鬥。是故，其兵不修 而戒，不求而得，不約而親，不令而信，禁祥去疑，至死無所之。吾士無餘財，非惡貨也；無餘命，非惡壽也。令 發之日，士卒坐者涕沾襟，偃臥者涕交頤，投之無所往，則諸劌之勇也。

Two different translations from two different scholars show that the text contains this advice:

“Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared.” -Giles

“Prohibit soothsaying, eliminate what is dubious, and they [the soldiers] will stay to the death.” -Cleary

Furthermore, the chapter translated as “The use of Spies” (用間 ) or “Employing Secret Agents” contains the the following:

孫子曰：凡興師十萬，出征千里，百姓之費，公家之奉，日費千金，內外騷動，怠于道路，不得操事者，七十萬家 ，相守數年，以爭一日之勝，而愛爵祿百金，不知敵之情者，不仁之至也，非人之將也，非主之佐也，非勝之主也 。故明君賢將，所以動而勝人，成功出于眾者，先知也；先知者，不可取于鬼神，不可象于事，不可驗于度；必取 于人，知敵之情者也。

Again, two different translations of the above text's last sentences are:

“Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge. Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men. “ -Giles

“So what enables intelligent rulers and good commanders to move in such a way as to overcome others and accomplish extraordinary achievements is advance knowledge. Advance knowledge cannot be obtained from supernatural beings, cannot be had by analogy, and cannot be found out by calculation; it must be obtained from people who know the enemy's condition.” -Cleary




Second, the Northern Song Dynasty emperor Huizong's reliance on Taoist external alchemy, notably the use of Fu lu (符簶) and Qi rang (祈禳) against the Mongols, proved INEFFECTIVE and played a significant role in the Northern Song Dynasty's downfall... which in turn brought about a dismissal of the Fu Lu Pai (符簶派) from State-Sponsored religions.

Around the same time, a gentleman by the name of Hsu Ch'un Fu* (1156AD) wrote a book called “Complete System of Medicine of all Times.”* He said something to the effect of “We speak of Wu-Yi (Sorcerer-physicians, 巫医) because these people replace medicine by magic. It is apparent that those who join the sorcerers possess no knowledge of the principles of medicine and drugs. ... Although these people merely display empty ostentation, they nevertheless have to remain persistent even in this.”* -Unschuld

So 900 years ago, external alchemy was already being criticized. Maybe if the Northern Song had followed the advice of Sun Tzu's Art of War regarding sorcery and the supernatural, they would have survived!


Okay, maybe I should give you this reference which I think you will believe more. Even in Wudang mountain, they are Quan Zhen sect, which I don't like myself on the Taoism side but then, they STILL HAVE MAGIC in their lineage as well. Look at their temple, they held magical rituals too. Don't you know? (snip) If you want to study Taoism history in depth, try to search for 道藏 and you find the whole encyclopedia of Taoism is about TAOISM MAGIC. All flooded with spells, FU (talisman or the magical writtings), magic cultivation, and rituals and so on. Famous huge ceremonies done in the past for the king are like Gold Ceremony, Jade CEremony and the Yellow CEremony 金籙大齋, 玉籙大齋, 黃籙大齋 and so on.. What are these? They are MAGIC in Taoism.

I'm not denying the historical existence of Taoist external alchemy; I'm simply pointing out that many people, including ancient Chinese Taoists, have given well-reasoned criticisms of it for some time.

Sun Si Miao (孫思邈, 581–682AD ), one of the most famous Chinese doctors of all time, was both a Taoist and an exorcist who lived to be 101 years old. Nevertheless, HE HIMSELF explained that “Great Physicians” did NOT rely on demonology or exorcism when treating patients. Since I practice Chinese Medicine, I respect Sun Si Miao greatly and work towards embodying what he considers a "Great Physician" to be.

He ALSO wrote that

“It has indeed never happened that spirits distributed [the understanding] for the difficult aspects and the details which were necessary for physicians, people versed in the prescriptions, soothsayers and magicians.”* -Unschuld

This runs EXACTLY OPPOSITE to your claim of being taught by the Taoverse Deity.


Yes, those text you mentioned don't talk about magic, BECAUSE they are not Taoism advance magic books! You need to read things like the Taoism Canon and stuff like that to see it. You are reading BABY BOOKS of Taoism you know?

If you're implying that texts such as the Dao De Jing are “basic training” for Taoists, then I agree. Elaborating on your analogy, anyone who disregards or fails basic training is stuck in Taoist kindergarten.

Taoist internal alchemy has enjoyed consistent growth and development – due in part to the “basic training's” emphasis on developing De (德, inner power, virtue) along physical and mental paths. It is this aspect which some external alchemy seems to dismiss as unnecessary, and therefore why it is so much more prone to moral and ethical abuses.


If western Taoism think there is no magic in Taoism, it's their responsibility to get educated more before making such statement or else they are just "uneducated on the subject" and doesn't makes them right even they blind fold themselves though.

It's not that there's no alchemy in Taoism – it's that your particular expression of magical Taoism is criticized not only by one of the most famous Taoist doctors in history, but also warned against by none other than Sun Tzu... and this is a martial arts forum, after all!


Don't try to convince me on "there are two different paths". There aren't. There is only one, and that is TAOISM. Taoism is Taoism.

As such, the philosophy of Taoism should be inseparable from your practice and identifiable within it – it does not seem to be. By not adhering in any significant way to the “basic training” and dismissing the inner alchemical aspects of Taoism, including the cultivation of De (德), how can you claim to have passed beyond “Taoist Kindergarten” ? One could say that you are like a child pretending to be a doctor without having any actual training.

Again, I cite 道德經 verse 24 as an example that your practices are not in line with Taoism's “basic training” and bring up certain moral and ethical concerns:

企者不立；跨者不行；自見者不明；自是者不彰；自伐者無功；自矜者不長。其在道也，曰：餘食贅行。物或惡之 ，故有道者不處

“He who stands on his tiptoes does not stand firm; he who stretches his legs does not walk (easily). (So), he who displays himself does not shine; he who asserts his own views is not distinguished; he who vaunts himself does not find his merit acknowledged; he who is self- conceited has no superiority allowed to him. Such conditions, viewed from the standpoint of the Dao, are like remnants of food, or a tumour on the body, which all dislike. Hence those who pursue (the course) of the Dao do not adopt and allow them.” -Legge


“He who stands on tiptoe is not steady. He who strides cannot maintain the pace. He who makes a show is not enlightened. He who is self-righteous is not respected. He who boasts achieves nothing. He who brags will not endure. According to the followers of the Tao, "These are extra food and unnecessary luggage." They do not bring happiness. Therefore followers of the Tao avoid them.” - Gia / English


“On tiptoes a man is not steady
Taking long strides he cannot keep pace
To the self-serving, nothing shines forth
To the self-promoting, nothing is distinguished
To the self-appointing, nothing bears fruit
To the self-righteous, nothing endures
From the viewpoint of Tao, this self-indulgence
is like rotting food and painful growths on the body
Things that all creatures despise
So why hold onto them?
When walking the path of Tao
this is the very stuff that must be uprooted, thrown out, and left behind.” -Star


*(Chinese characters unavailable, if you know them please post them)

---

SWORDS

Here are a two pics of my Favourite sword to date: my Hanwei Qi Jian. It's sturdy, forged entirely from a single billet of steel from pommel to tip, weighs 2lbs 9 oz., is wrapped in Rayskin and has a P.O.B that's just beyond the guard. It arrived moderately sharp, but I will be sharpening it. I strung the Scabbard with leather cord, added a leather lanyard and beads; I also made a small clasp out of the beads and leather, preventing the sword from falling out if the scabbard is held upside down but allowing for quick access with a simple tug on the bead.

[SimonM]

Thank you Xiao Meng, your argument was cogent and compelling.

As somebody who personally holds philosophical Taoism in moderately high regard, and who dismisses magic as frippery, it makes me feel happy to see a clear and well cited refutation of the Taoism = magic argument.

My preferred version of the sunzi, admittedly one influenced heavily by Buddhism, provides this translation of the relevant passage in the Nine Grounds:

"Prohibit omens, remove doubt, and even death seems no disaster."

Prohibit omens seems pretty darn clear, especially for the Sunzi.

From Employing Spies:

"Foreknowledge cannot be grasped from ghosts and spirits,
Cannot be inferred from events,
Cannot be projected from calculations.
It must be grasped from people's knowledge."

Have you read this article (http://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus/Papers/778552/Zhuangzis_Ethics_of_Deconstructing_Moralistic_Self-Imprisonment_Standards_without_standards)? Ran across it recently and haven't had a time to read far into it, but it seems quite interesting.

[taai gihk yahn]

Thank you Xiao Meng, your argument was cogent and compelling.

unfotunately, it will b completely disregarded by CYBigMac...

nice to have u back, XM...

[CYMac]

Hi Xiao Ming,

Nice long reply, you have to give me time to read when I am off work and so that I can reply you nicely.

Well, first impression to say is - you are using the wrong book to understand what you are trying to study. Art of war is a war strategy book, it is not a Taoism book. It is for those who have to fight a war, for generals and for war leaders to read. Of course a war leader cannot depend on magic, if not, then they are crazy. There are many superstitious people in the past who just believe in magic and instinct but their belief is totally bizzare and non-sense and so they lead people to death and suffer. If you ever heard people in China toss babies into the river to worship for good luck in the past.. that's the famous story of the river god.

To study real TAoism though, you must know the difference between being a TAOIST and being a General in war. It is different.

The King also don't learn from these art of war and stuff. The king learn from their own stuff and not the books from generals. But having said that, the text that the king read are all RESTRICTED for public to see or read in the past and so they are all not exposed to the public and even now, many books are just destroyed and not leaked to the public. You cannot even find them at all. That's how secret it is.

So you have to know that Taoism is not like reading Art of War, that book is for generals and those who are fighting a war. The chapter you are citing is also for war and not for "Taoist" or Taoism study.

External alchemy is not magic either.

So.. I would have to say, without real experience in the subject of Taoism magic, you won't undersatnd why I am telling you all these today. But it's like when people try to imply Tao Te Ching or Art of War in just everything, it is going to be so off topic and so not right. The problem is, the way of being a king or being a general or being a citizen or being a polic or being a TAoist, is all different.

It's like a rich businessman can have his way of spending, but if you take that and use it youreslf, and you don't have that kind of background, money and stuff.. as the rich man.. you will for sure be in deep sheet mode very soon.

That is the problem with new age too. They mix here and there, take a bit here and then take a bit there.. but end up with a very mixed pot of stuff and going nowhere in their life. The problem is, you can't. Sometimes things just don't mix well. You can't be a woman and e a man and be a dog at the same time. You can only chooe to be one. If you do be one, then you have to learn how to be that one good, and not go weird.

Back in the old days, Zhuge Liang was famous for his calculation in wealther and all that using Taoist astronomical study to win wars and do his strategy too, did he just knock Suen Ji over?

Just that one book say something, it is not the rule of the world. Just like Steve Job, he broke every rule in management, but he is successful too. Thsoe who set the rules, they are not always right. They could be wrong too. Just because the rules are there for long, doesn't means it's right.

Science in the west is like that too, it's starting to have flaws and stuff with the weather and climate prediction now and they just can't make up the math.. in a documentry I saw, they explain this.. and so they are kind of overthrowing the theory of global warming too. Just because they finally found what's wrong after so many years, seeing the patterns.

If Suen Ji is not 100% correct, then does his books have to stay "always 100% correct" now?

Please study some more famous strategist instead of just one or two famous one. There are even Taoist or people with great magic or forecasting power who became famous strategist too such as Lau Pak Wun, Zhuge Liang, and so on. You must not forget that Suen Ji is only ONE of the many wise man in history. So his take is like that, but other wise man can also have different ways of doing things.

Philoosophy in Taoism is not false, it is real but then it is only PART of Taoism in my view. My way of Taoism have both philosophy and practical magic as well, it's not a superstitious belief when you can teach your students to see, feel and experience what magic is and what they are seeing is already telling them the truth. It's just not real when you don't learn the real thing. When you get the real thing, then itis not a belief anymore, you can say, you are just gaining more ability to open your eyes to more things in nature, such as proofing to yourself that more energy than chi exsist, more realms exsist and more living beings in other realms exsist... not because I tell you, but because you gain the ability to see it yourself already. What's there to debate? Waste of time to debate, because it's already proven real to the student already.

-----

Sword -- good sword! I saw that sword selling for a high price in wle.com too, is yours forged and hammered? how do you go about sharpening it? what you use for measuring?

[taai gihk yahn]

Have you read this article (http://harvard.academia.edu/DanLusthaus/Papers/778552/Zhuangzis_Ethics_of_Deconstructing_Moralistic_Self-Imprisonment_Standards_without_standards)? Ran across it recently and haven't had a time to read far into it, but it seems quite interesting.

typical post-structuralist claptrap, if u ask me; but it's a handy tool for toturing Dave Ross, as he had to endure an entire semester at NYU sitting next to me while I tried to pigeon-hole the Chuang Tzu into a framework of deconstruction (hey, I was young and foolish, so sue me); Dave was never quite the same afterwards, and still has a nasty tic to this day...

Derrida is derrivative of the CHunag Tzu without even knowing it; to wit: on page 36
From Of Grammatology by Jacques Derrida (trans. Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak) the following is written:

In this play of representation, the point of origin becomes ungraspable. There are things like reflecting pools and images, an infinite reference from one to the other, but no longer a source, a spring. There is no longer a simple origin. For what is reflected is split in itself and not only as an addition to itself of its image. The reflection, the image, the double, splits what it doubles. The origin of the speculation becomes a difference. What can look at itself is not one; and the law of the addition of the origin to its representation, of the thing to its image, is that one plus one makes at least three.

Almost identically in the Chuang Tzu chapter "Discussion on Making All Things Equal", (Burton Watson trans.) we have:

We have already become one, so how can I say anything? But I have just said that we are one, so how can I not be saying something? The one and what I said about it make two, and two and the original one make three. If we go on this way, then even the cleverest mathematician can't tell where we'll end, much less an ordinary man. If by moving from nonbeing to being we get to three, how far will we get if we move from being to being? Better not to move, but to let things be!

The first passage was highlighted to me in a seminar by Richard Sennett, a long-time student and friend of Derrida, who basically declared that it was the fundamental principle of deconstruction; when I showed him the passage from Chuang Tzu, he looked at me blankly, as if there was no connection...ah well...

[CYMac]

Again, I must say that your translation of Suen Ji is very misleading as well which is not rare to see in the west. The problem is, people tends to like to make sun Ji not a book for war strategy but "a book fo wisdom for all". That's why you are trying to imply it and make it an argument reference to TAOISM. Well, it is a book for war and generals, not for Taoism study though. Not for normal people too. It's ONLY for fighting wars. Sun Ji Bing Faat, it is Bing Faat, the method to war. It is obviously stated what it is, please don't use your imagination too much and made it "book of wisdom for all". That's very misleading already. There are just way too many people doing the same thing nowadays because they think these people who wrote these anceint text are so wise and so they expect these knwoledge can be use for everything in life. Obviously they cannot. When the author like Suen Ji wrote his book, it is meant for war and generals only, not for normal people, not for your daily life, not for your business and not for Taoist. It is JUST for war.

Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching, it is a book of virtues, so it ONLY teaches you about virtues. People somehow go way off and started to read the book as "book of Tao" and just like you, treating it as the "outline of Taoism study', which is wrong. The reason is, the book only talks about virtues as the title say and it is not about TAO or TAOISM. It is not an outline or an index.

Okay, let me make it simple here.. just like when you go to grade one and got the first book of history, that is not going to tell you what your 10 yrs of history study is going to be about in the future.. it's just going to teach you maybe history of XXX period.. and then next year you get a book for YYY period..etc. You are now taking the grade 1 book of XXX history and telling me that my XK2L history is not in the program because your XXX history book don't show my stuff? That's hilarious. You have to know and accept the fact that Tao Te Ching is not abuot OUTLINE OF TAOISM. There are WAY MORE THINGS than those in Tao Te Ching and the book of TTC never listed them out because it is not a book about those subject! You won't find calculus or algebra in your english grammar book, does that means your education system should not have math? Okay, now you get my point?

That's also the main problem with new agers as well, they think Taoism is about TTC only and TTC tells you what Taoism is about.. then they started to use the same thing to imply into everything.. which leads them to lots of confusion, cloudiness and false knowledge.. Taoism is way more than TTC, as I said, it is a basic beginner book in Taoism only. It is meant to be about TAo Te only, not about TAoism. Taoism have more things.. Tao Te is ONE of them only. Just like math.. science, english, whatever.. School is not just abuot science or physics.. there are also math, english, art..and so on...............

I am not fighting or anything there, I am just stating what I mean and why I always insist on what I say. Not that only I am right, but it's just that I see things are wrong for a reason, not just because they aren't my cup of tea. If you talk about Jesus or things like that I won't talk back. For Taoism? For sure I will be able to answer anything you post and respond to anything you post too.

--

btw, I hate to cite back to books and stuff, I am not a scholar or a book worm. I am just a Taoist and Taoism master who teach things that are practical real deal. My knowledge and things are real and so they come out out of mouth naturally already, I am not going to debate with a bookshelf in hand. Sorry for no citations or anything.

(*please read my post just imagine I am smiling and talking with laughing too, I am being friendly here, and sometimes people are so bias to think I am mean and shouting back.. hey no, I am just talking with a friendly laughter and smile!)

[SimonM]

Back in the old days, Zhuge Liang was famous for his calculation in wealther and all that using Taoist astronomical study to win wars and do his strategy too, did he just knock Suen Ji over?



You do realize that Zhuge Liang's magical exploits were a work of fiction right?

You... do... understand the difference between fiction and history as it applies to Sanguo Yanyi and Sanguo Zhi right?

I sincerely hope so - though I fear you may not.

[CYMac]

You do realize that Zhuge Liang's magical exploits were a work of fiction right?

You... do... understand the difference between fiction and history as it applies to Sanguo Yanyi and Sanguo Zhi right?

I sincerely hope so - though I fear you may not.

I am not talking about the magic part, I am talking about his bing faat and his calculation method used. If you ever saw the bing faat of zhuge lian, you will know what I am talking about. Of course I can tell the difference between the fiction and real deal. I am not crazy.

Just read the bing faat of his and you will know. There are books called 諸葛亮兵法 too. Read and you will know what I am talking about. his style is very different from Sun Ji, but agian, I am not going to cite anything, too busy for that.

*In zhuge liang time, he really did use calculation for his war, 術數 being you can find it now too! Also, you might heard of 奇門遁甲, it is a calculation he use for war too. Don't miss out all that good stuff.

[SimonM]

I am not talking about the magic part, I am talking about his bing faat and his calculation method used. If you ever saw the bing faat of zhuge lian, you will know what I am talking about. Of course I can tell the difference between the fiction and real deal. I am not crazy.

Just read the bing faat of his and you will know. There are books called 諸葛亮兵法 too. Read and you will know what I am talking about. his style is very different from Sun Ji, but agian, I am not going to cite anything, too busy for that.

*In zhuge liang time, he really did use calculation for his war, 術數 being you can find it now too! Also, you might heard of 奇門遁甲, it is a calculation he use for war too. Don't miss out all that good stuff.

Based on your references you DON'T know the difference between fiction and history.

Also it seems more that you received your Taoist lineage from Jin Yong than any sort of deity...

Although to be fair, Jin Yong is basically the god of wuxia.

[CYMac]

Based on your references you DON'T know the difference between fiction and history.

Also it seems more that you received your Taoist lineage from Jin Yong than any sort of deity...

Although to be fair, Jin Yong is basically the god of wuxia.

Not really You have to know and accept the fact that there are so many wise one like zhugelian also study in 奇門 which is a way to calculate and forecast things too. Just like people use i-ching in the past as well. It's not anything superstitious, it's astronomical study. Magic is also like that too. Just that those who are flooded with too much harry potter thinks magic is superstitious because they don't get it.

Actually, if you actually know what magic in Taoism is, it is also very closely related to the astronomical study as well. They all interact with the 術數 too.

Just that you don't see the real magic doesn't means it is not there. So please, be open minded. You need to read about the wise sages and strategist more, not me.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

CYMAC:

I look forward to your reply concerning Sun Si Miao's refusal to include Demonology in the criteria for great physicians and his statement that such knowledge is not divinely acquired.

I look forward to your reply concerning Hsu Ch'un Fu's criticism of Wu-Yi(巫医); and the dismissal of the Fu Lu Pai (符簶派) from the official State Religions after the fall of the Northern Song Dynasty.

Furthermore, Zhuge Liang's "The Way of the General" in "Mastering the Art of War" states:

"Chasing Evils

There are five types of harm in decadence among national armed forces.

First is the formation of factions that band together for character assassination, criticizing and vilifying the wise and good (http://www.chiinnature.com/badpaths.html).

Second is luxury in uniforms (http://makchingyuen.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/makjosi_sit.jpg?w=254&h=400).

Third is wild tales and confabulations about the supernatural.

Fourth is judgement based on private views, mobilizing groups for personal reasons.

Fifth is making secret alliances with enemies, watching for where the advantage may lie." -Cleary



Once again: since this is a martial arts forum, the long-discredited practice of demonology and exorcism is out of place. Even within a medical context, Sun Si Miao's and Hsu Ch'un Fu's admonitions are but few of many criticisms. For example:

"If someone wears a black coat or a yellow cap, he is immediately called a Buddhist or a Taoist priest. ... Whoever has no understanding of Yin and Yang, and meddles with symptoms of excess and deficiency without knowing about them, whoever is endowed with a careless mind and the nature of a daredevil, hides in a cave and is one-sided and common, will certainly not only fail to accomplish anything good, but on the very contrary he will cause harm [wherever he practices.] Such people do not even reach the level of those who use pepper, sulphur, onions and shallots, not to mention that they deserve the designation "petty teaching" for their activity."
-The complete works of Zhang Jing Yue (JingYue QuanShu), by Zhang Jie Bin, styled Jing-Yue, 1563-1640AD -Unschuld

Or

"Those, however, who surrender to fashionable trends, do not carry out their practice conscientiously. They place themselves in the greatest light and make use of the need of others in order to appropriate their material goods to themselves. They are not concerned about the lives of men, but have only their own profit in mind (http://www.chiinnature.com/Taoism_Fu_store.html#altardeal). As far as the plan for their physical well-being, they may be successful with this conduct." - Warnings for Physicians (in the Ku-Chin-Yi-Chi), Hsuai Yuan (~1808AD) -Unschuld

Or again, from the "Basic Training" of Taoism, verse 63:

為無為，事無事，味無味。大小多少，報怨以德。圖難於其易，為大於其細；天下難事，必作於易，天下大事，必 作於細。是以聖人終不為大，故能成其大。夫輕諾必寡信，多易必多難。是以聖人猶難之，故終無難 矣。

"He who lightly promises is sure to keep but little faith; he who is continually thinking things easy is sure to find them difficult. Therefore the sage sees difficulty even in what seems easy, and so never has any difficulties." -Legge

"...
Beware those who promise a quick and easy way
For much ease brings many difficulties
..." -Star

You promise people a quick and easy way out of their problems - they just have to buy your talismans (which EXPIRE, to boot!) or subject themselves to an exorcism. In no way does this address the root of their problems, and in no way is this in accordance with 德 or inner alchemy. In short, you dress up as a Taoist and sell "Get out of hell free" cards without guiding people back to their 原 精神.

Basic Training Fail.


Again, I would appreciate it if anyone could post the Chinese for the sections above.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not crazy.

No, no, of course you're not.:rolleyes:

[CYMac]

CYMAC:

I lookYou promise people a quick and easy way out of their problems - they just have to buy your talismans (which EXPIRE, to boot!) or subject themselves to an exorcism. In no way does this address the root of their problems, and in no way is this in accordance with 德 or inner alchemy. In short, you dress up as a Taoist and sell "Get out of hell free" cards without guiding people back to their 原 精神.

Basic Training Fail.


Again, I would appreciate it if anyone could post the Chinese for the sections above.

Wait a sec.. this is a martial art forum and this thread is about swords, but you are the one who raised the point and started all these long talk. Maybe I should take the first step to step out of this discussion with you and go back to swords posting?

Also, my way is not "quick easy way out" to fix problems for people, it's because we have the wisdom to understand how things works and how the problem is caused and so we know how to fix it. You are not understanding a single cent of exorcism there if you can say such things. you are not even into the door of Taoism magic also because you can say such things.

I don't see a point to talk because I am not here to convert you or anything. So I should stay away from this talk with exorcism here and go back to swords. Keep in mind that I am not here to convince anybody or convert anybody, so you can keep your own belief and I can keep mine. But if you want to talk exorcism in Taoism, I am saying a NO to your understanding.

If you can say such things, go overthrown medics too then. They found too many quick easy fix for health problems including advil and other medicine we can buy for a cheap price in drug marts. WE should all go cough for years and try to heal it naturally without eating a pill. Great, that's wisdom in your dictionary? Then so be it. I won't stop you from it. But in Taoism exorcism, we learn to study and undersdtand about how spiritual illness is cause, we learn to diagnose it and cure it for people, no different compare to TCM or chi gung healers. If you can quote such things, sorry, you don't get what exorcism is by the beginning and so there is no point to talk anymore.

Bye. Not going to go on with this anymore since it is way too off topic. I apologize that I responded at first to get so off topic too.

---
Back to swords!

Here is a pair of small long chuen sword pair, quite cute! only about 10 inches long blade!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Wait a sec.. this is a martial art forum and this thread is about swords, but you are the one who raised the point and started all these long talk. Maybe I should take the first step to step out of this discussion with you and go back to swords posting?

Oh, I see... your dozen or so posts trying to convince people that you're a sorcerer are ok, but when I make 2 posts refuting your claims via classical sources AND reminding you that this is a martial arts forum, then I'M the one derailing the thread. Gotcha. :rolleyes:


Also, my way is not "quick easy way out" to fix problems for people, it's because we have the wisdom to understand how things works and how the problem is caused and so we know how to fix it. You are not understanding a single cent of exorcism there if you can say such things. you are not even into the door of Taoism magic also because you can say such things.

In other words, you can't refute my sources.


I don't see a point to talk because I am not here to convert you or anything. Keep in mind that I am not here to convince anybody or convert anybody

Could've fooled me....


so you can keep your own belief and I can keep mine. But if you want to talk exorcism in Taoism, I am saying a NO to your understanding.

In other words, everybody that disagrees with you is wrong.


If you can say such things, go overthrown medics too then. They found too many quick easy fix for health problems including advil and other medicine we can buy for a cheap price in drug marts.

1. Even if you don't believe in drugs/herbs, THEY WILL ALWAYS WORK.
2. Even if you believe in magic, IT WON'T ALWAYS WORK.
3. Doctors are required to study ETHICS. Sorcerers are not.
4. Doctors encourage patients to take control of their lives. Sorcerers encourage patients to hand over control of their lives.
5. Medics didn't invent advil. WTF


WE should all go cough for years and try to heal it naturally without eating a pill. Great, that's wisdom in your dictionary?

No, we should use medication in conjunction with lifestyle changes which encourage self-reliance through De (德) as opposed to putting our faith in sorcery.


Then so be it. I won't stop you from it. But in Taoism exorcism, we learn to study and undersdtand about how spiritual illness is cause, we learn to diagnose it and cure it for people, no different compare to TCM or chi gung healers.

...except you
a) renounce the importance of De (德) in this process
b) claim to have learned from a magic sky being - Something completely opposed by Sun Si Miao, arguably the greatest Taoist Doctor/exorcist of all time
c) take a one-sided approach, as opposed to a multi-faceted one such as Chinese Medicine.


If you can quote such things, sorry, you don't get what exorcism is by the beginning and so there is no point to talk anymore.

One word: Placebo.
One Phrase: Timing is everything.


Thank you Xiao Meng, your argument was cogent and compelling.

Thanks, SimonM. I appreciate the contribution of your versions of Sun Tzu's Nine grounds and Use of Spies, as well as your knowledge of Zhuge Liang.


unfotunately, it will b completely disregarded by CYBigMac...

nice to have u back, XM...

Nice to be back. Thanks. :)

---

SWORDS

A few different pics of the Qi Jian:

[GeneChing]

Is it yours?

[lkfmdc]

Nice Piece, Is it yours?

A lady said that to me once

[Lucas]

Is it yours?

Check out the very end of post #145 Gene. :p

[CYMac]

XM,

You gotta realize that I ain't convincing anybody about I ama sorcerer, in fact, I am not even a sorcerer, I am a Taoist.

Also, What makes you think that I am trying to convince anybody? I am just posting to talk about swords and if you see that I said my swords are for magical rituals, then you got all spiked up and think I am trying to convince you? Sorry dude, no, you can be unconvinced as you are and I don't give a darm. Seriously I don't care who believe or who don't here, I know it is a kungfu forum, you think I am here to find believers? Don't be silly my friend, I am just posting swords to share as the post said!

I don't see a point to debate or argue with you since you don't even know what exorcism is in Taoism and from your "quotes" I can see your knowledgei is nothing but a book worm which don't even know what I am talking about when I talk about exorcism.. you are referring to magic more to harry potter style or superstistious style.

Let me tell you, magic don't need you to believe to work, it's just that for people don't believe, I won't MAKE IT WORK for them. That's it. So I just state, those who don't believe, it won't work. Also, why the hell on earth do I have to help people who don't believe or have faith in anyway, waste of time, they are not even wanting the help anyway, man. you use your logic please! Don't try to fantasize that I am trying to convert or convince you, no, I don't even care what you believe man, you can still believe in your own stuff and I don't care too. I am already laughing my head off when I see how you quote Art of War to me while you are trying to talk about Taoism and Taoism magic.. oh man.. please.. it's okay, I know some people will think you are cool because they do have similar background and knowledge. but it's not me. Too bad~

---------

By the way, the qi jian -- kinda different from what I see from online, did you do mods to the fittings to make it that way or something? how are you going to sharpen your sword anyway? what do you use to measure?

[GeneChing]

A lady said that to me once
That was no lady. That was bawang in a wig and stilettos.


Check out the very end of post #145 Gene. :p
Roger that, thanks for the tip.

[CYMac]

another cool one, heavy dao, can be single or double handed. Love the weight as well, feels like a 6lb dao.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Also, What makes you think that I am trying to convince anybody?

Number of CYMAC posts with sword pics: 17
Number of CYMAC posts without swords, promoting his magical views and/or using straw men to derisively dismiss those who question his views: 17



I don't see a point to debate or argue with you since you don't even know what exorcism is in Taoism and from your "quotes" I can see your knowledgei is nothing but a book worm which don't even know what I am talking about when I talk about exorcism.. you are referring to magic more to harry potter style or superstistious style.

Number of posts with swords AND using straw men arguments: 1


Let me tell you, magic don't need you to believe to work, it's just that for people don't believe, I won't MAKE IT WORK for them. That's it. So I just state, those who don't believe, it won't work. Also, why the hell on earth do I have to help people who don't believe or have faith in anyway

:(


I am already laughing my head off when I see how you quote Art of War to me while you are trying to talk about Taoism and Taoism magic.. oh man.. please...

You seem to have skipped over:
The words of the Taoist exorcist Sun Si Miao (孫思邈)
The comments of Zhuge Liang (諸葛亮)
The shunning of the Fu Lu Pai (符簶派) 900 years ago
The criticisms of Dr. Xu Chun Fu (徐春甫) and Dr. Chang Jing-Yue (张景岳)
The Basic Training of the Dao De Jing (道德經).



By the way, the qi jian -- kinda different from what I see from online, did you do mods to the fittings to make it that way or something? how are you going to sharpen your sword anyway? what do you use to measure?

I threaded a leather strap through the carrying rings - once through the bottom two, which are side-rings, so that the strap holds the weight of the scabbard (see the pic in post 145); and twice through the top rings, which are upper/lower rings, so that the strap enters through the top ring, has both ends wrap through the bottom ring and then re-emerge through the top ring so that it holds the weight of the scabbard and also allows me to make a beaded clasp (blue bead). The clasp holds the red-beaded lanyard securely in place, so that if the scabbard is tipped upside down, it won't fall out (examine the first pic in my last post, you'll see what I mean.) The two black beads (see post 145) are adjustable stoppers that allow the scabbard to hang from a string, ring or hook at any angle I choose.

As for sharpening, I recently discovered the accusharp tungsten carbide sharpening tool.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/tool-sharpener.gif

It's great! You can get a razor-sharp edge with it, and can buy a version of them at WalMart or Canadian Tire.

Here's a video showing some guy sharpening his sword with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgD6Ky7wlFQ

I wouldn't sharpen the entire length of a Jian like that, though. I sharpened 3 quarters of my Da Dao with it, the upper quarter of my Adam Hsu Jian, and will probably sharpen from the top of the fuller to the tip of the Qi Jian. To test sharpness, I'll use paper.

Here's my Adam Hsu Jian (which, btw, you can buy at MartialArtsMart! (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-2269b.html))

It's well made, has a sturdy yet somewhat flexible Diamond-shaped blade which whistles loudest when you make a proper cut, and not at all when you make a really improper cut. It lets me know where the force of my cut reaches its maximum - which, ideally, should be in or just beyond the target. The handle has grooves which give good proprioceptive feedback, letting me know how I'm holding the sword without having to look at it. I've sharpened it and done some test-cuts/thrusts. It feels light and nimble - it's currently the sword that I use most often and the sword that I would turn to in a time of need (although I'm REALLY starting to like the Qi Jian, even though it's heavier.)

[CYMac]

XM,


your Adam Hsu jian cleared my mind off! I have been looking at that before and thinking how it would be like and now that you shown me the details, i know it is not a jian I would like. The design is okay but kinda too "modern looking" and the sword seems way too light for my style and vibe and so I like mine more sturdy and heavy instead.

How is the qi-jian when you first got it? do you feel the weight is abit too much before when you first got it?

I know the accusharp method for swords too, but I am kind of thinking you would be the old fashion guy using a stone and oil. So I am just curious if you did those or not. Accusharp is good, just do the job right, haha! Just wondering will those kitchen knife sharpening machine (electric) works too? :)

---

For Taoism, I really see no point to talk about those with you since your translation are already very off and you don't even know what EXORCISM is about. What is the point? Let's just get back to swords or else you will be counting my post again. Here is one more! HAHA!

Another cool one that I use for my altar's primary sword. Again, it's heavier than normal ones, abuot 2.4lb bare sword. I just love these stuff that got some weight to them. Everything over 2.25lb is good to me. (for sword)

[CYMac]

sorry posted wrong pic before, this is the jian, that one is the ching dynasty style dao.

[SPJ]

there is this wind/fashion/style of qin blowing in China.

qin feng.

:)

[wenshu]

Do all your marks -er- "clients" know that you spend all the money they pay you for exorcism on toys?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

How is the qi-jian when you first got it? do you feel the weight is abit too much before when you first got it?

The weight doesn't bother me, however the Point of Balance is significantly closer to the guard than any other sword I've owned so it handles a bit differently - I find it demands much more body movement for effective use.


I know the accusharp method for swords too, but I am kind of thinking you would be the old fashion guy using a stone and oil. So I am just curious if you did those or not. Accusharp is good, just do the job right, haha! Just wondering will those kitchen knife sharpening machine (electric) works too? :)


Old fashioned? Me? :eek:

Function trumps form for me. If that's old fashioned, then so be it.

I Have a Butcher's stone and can get a decent edge however the accusharp delivers better and more consistent results in a MUCH shorter amount of time. - the only thing is that it creates a noticeable beveled edge, which some people may not like, but it doesn't bother me and with a little bit of careful work with the butcher's stone, the bevel can be reduced. I don't know about the electric sharpeners, I guess they would work.

[Lucas]

Do all your marks -er- "clients" know that you spend all the money they pay you for exorcism on toys?

He's doing better than me, I spend all my exorcism monies on hookers, jack daniels, and fine cuban cigars. not necessarily in that order.

[wenshu]

He's doing better than me, I spend all my exorcism monies on hookers, jack daniels, and fine cuban cigars. not necessarily in that order.

Those are daily necessities, not toys.

[Lucas]

Those are daily necessities, not toys.

You, Sir, are a true gentleman of the highest calibre.

[David Jamieson]

You, Sir, are a true gentleman of the highest calibre.

I would say the same of you, but your choice of bourbon is rather low brow... lol :p

woodford reserve if you must drink sour corn mash whisky... :)

Otherwise, what you really need to bring into your habits is a good Islay single malt scotch. :D

[CYMac]

The weight doesn't bother me, however the Point of Balance is significantly closer to the guard than any other sword I've owned so it handles a bit differently - I find it demands much more body movement for effective use.



Old fashioned? Me? :eek:

Function trumps form for me. If that's old fashioned, then so be it.

I Have a Butcher's stone and can get a decent edge however the accusharp delivers better and more consistent results in a MUCH shorter amount of time. - the only thing is that it creates a noticeable beveled edge, which some people may not like, but it doesn't bother me and with a little bit of careful work with the butcher's stone, the bevel can be reduced. I don't know about the electric sharpeners, I guess they would work.

Thanks for the insight, I guess I will try the accusharp sometimes later on too since you already told me it is working nicely with yours. I bet it will be cool to try some blades iwth it too. Great photos with swords, keep it up~

Do you have a vid with you and your sword in action?

[Lucas]

I would say the same of you, but your choice of bourbon is rather low brow... lol :p

woodford reserve if you must drink sour corn mash whisky... :)

Otherwise, what you really need to bring into your habits is a good Islay single malt scotch. :D

lol touche! I will definately take your suggestions to heart and give it a shot! (pun intended)

[wenshu]

You, Sir, are a true gentleman of the highest calibre.

I can see you are a scholar of high birth as well.

Game recognize Game.

Quite!

As such, wheretofore hereafter I shall henceforth seek refuge within my lodgings (her name is Crystal), warm myself by the hearth (A San Cristobal) while enjoying luxurious sustenance (grain alcohol).

Pay no attention to what that plebeian Davis Jørgensen says. Single Malt is for peasants.

Good day sir.

[taai gihk yahn]

Here's my Adam Hsu Jian
I just got the two handed version - it's a nice blade - light, well balanced - the handle is actually a bit longer than one might think it ought to be, but it actually works in terms of the overall balance and leverage - the cool thing about it is that u can use it single or double-handed without feeling like one is inferior to the other (I tried the single handed, which is ok, but I like the Han Wei Practical Jian better)



I'm REALLY starting to like the Qi Jian
this is going to be my next acquisition; actually, Uki has one, and he really likes it as well;

[PalmStriker]

I'll raise you a Heron Marked Blade

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510EM5jhkWL._AA1000_.jpg



Btw, if you know what this sword is that makes you a geek. OOH! Really like dat ! :D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I just got the two handed version - it's a nice blade - light, well balanced - the handle is actually a bit longer than one might think it ought to be, but it actually works in terms of the overall balance and leverage - the cool thing about it is that u can use it single or double-handed without feeling like one is inferior to the other (I tried the single handed, which is ok, but I like the Han Wei Practical Jian better)

Is the blade much wider/sturdier on the two-hander? Seems like a two-handed sword begs to slash big, meaty targets... while the one-handed Jian is really about thrusts to the body and slashes to the extremities.



this is going to be my next acquisition; actually, Uki has one, and he really likes it as well;

Shop around, the price has come down considerably so don't be fooled by the CASIBERIA pricetag.


Do you have a vid with you and your sword in action?

Yes, in a manner of speaking. I have some vid of me practicing my Wudang Tai Ji Jian form w/ the Hsu Jian and Scabbard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_MIA1moyvE), but it's really a work in progress. It's not awful, but on the whole, it needs to be faster, and some of my execution lacks proper Yi (it's easy to tell which techniques I know how to apply and which ones I'm still working on.) That was the POINT of the video though: to help me identify the rough spots from an outside perspective. Now I know what to pull out and drill more. I'm also hoping to film some partner work either tomorrow or this weekend, and will revisit the form in film about a month from now, for comparison; by then I should be using the Qi Jian (I like to use a "Chinatown Special" to break things down with power, refine it with my Hsu Jian, and make it work with the Qi Jian.)

[CYMac]

Yes, in a manner of speaking. I have some vid of me practicing my Wudang Tai Ji Jian form w/ the Hsu Jian and Scabbard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_MIA1moyvE), but it's really a work in progress. It's not awful, but on the whole, it needs to be faster, and some of my execution lacks proper Yi (it's easy to tell which techniques I know how to apply and which ones I'm still working on.) That was the POINT of the video though: to help me identify the rough spots from an outside perspective. Now I know what to pull out and drill more. I'm also hoping to film some partner work either tomorrow or this weekend, and will revisit the form in film about a month from now, for comparison; by then I should be using the Qi Jian (I like to use a "Chinatown Special" to break things down with power, refine it with my Hsu Jian, and make it work with the Qi Jian.)

So I have saw the video above. Looks kind of weird with the scabbard in hand though, but it's your preference. The form was not intended for the war style and it is not suppose to be fast either and so I don't like that scabbard vibe there much. Anyway, the sword looks very good in control and balance of weight, and the way you pull it out is smooth too and so I believe the scabbard is quite easy going. Does the sword create a "ching" sound when you pull it out?

Qi Jian would be good to watch, that sword got style~

I know that exact same form as you did too. Probably would be cool if I do it for a comparison with bigger swords and smaller swords in the future too. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

Is the blade much wider/sturdier on the two-hander? Seems like a two-handed sword begs to slash big, meaty targets... while the one-handed Jian is really about thrusts to the body and slashes to the extremities.
blade width is the same, and it's still pretty light - 1lb 4 oz; I wouldn't characterize it as "sturdy" per se, but I'm not going to be loppin' off 'eads with it either...


Shop around, the price has come down considerably so don't be fooled by the CASIBERIA pricetag.
oh yeah, they r sellling the Qi Jian for $719 at casaiberia, versus $495 at hanweikatana (http://www.hanweikatanaswords.com/), which is where I got the 2-handed jian, so yep...and hanweikatana seems to be the cheapest out there at least that I could find; I ordered the jian as a "test case" to c if they were reliable, and I got it at regular ground shipping ~3 days later;


Yes, in a manner of speaking. I have some vid of me practicing my Wudang Tai Ji Jian form w/ the Hsu Jian and Scabbard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_MIA1moyvE), but it's really a work in progress.
ok, since everyone is "sharing", this is me doing 2-handed jian about 6 years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjurakpt#p/u/1/8a9Fk-zYCk4

[Dragonzbane76]

Would have been so awesome if u stabbed someone in that crowd u were doing that form in.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

So I have saw the video above. Looks kind of weird with the scabbard in hand though, but it's your preference. The form was not intended for the war style and it is not suppose to be fast either and so I don't like that scabbard vibe there much.

To each their own.

The form was developed by Li Jing-Lin, who was not known for sitting in a circle reciting "Kumbaya."

From the Video Description:

"This is my Wudang TaiJi sword form performed with an Adam Hsu Jian at moderate speed. I've used a functional Lanyard in place of a Tassel, and a Scabbard in place of the free hand's "secret sword" mudra. The Scabbard is used to block, parry or deflect an incoming attack. It is also sometimes used to "receive" the opponent's weapon after being parried by the sword. Most cutting applications in this form involve simultaneously parrying the opponent's weapon with the scabbard while slashing at their wrists or lower legs (and occasionally following up with a chop or thrust to the legs, body or neck); most thrusting applications involve simultaneously parrying and stabbing at the thighs, belly, chest or throat."

Anyone with a Genuine interest in cross-cultural swordplay would do well to learn the meaning of the terms "Mandritto," "Riversi" and "Coup de Jarnac." A good source is "Old Sword Play" by Alfred Hutton (Hey, I just found it online (http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/OldSwordPlay.pdf) too! No need to buy the book like I did!)


Does the sword create a "ching" sound when you pull it out?

Yes, but it sounds NOTHING like the Qi Jian: That blade doesn't "ching," it friggin SINGS when you pull it out.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

blade width is the same, and it's still pretty light - 1lb 4 oz; I wouldn't characterize it as "sturdy" per se, but I'm not going to be loppin' off 'eads with it either...

Roger that.



oh yeah, they r sellling the Qi Jian for $719 at casaiberia, versus $495 at hanweikatana (http://www.hanweikatanaswords.com/), which is where I got the 2-handed jian, so yep...and hanweikatana seems to be the cheapest out there at least that I could find; I ordered the jian as a "test case" to c if they were reliable, and I got it at regular ground shipping ~3 days later;

I also recommend http://www.kultofathena.com/chinese.asp which has the Qi Jian for $431 CDN + shipping.




ok, since everyone is "sharing", this is me doing 2-handed jian about 6 years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cjurakpt#p/u/1/8a9Fk-zYCk4

Haha, love the Hooter's sign in the Background! You're totally into it too, which is nice to see.

[taai gihk yahn]

I also recommend http://www.kultofathena.com/chinese.asp which has the Qi Jian for $431 CDN + shipping.
yeah, i was going to check that as well - I actually priced the 2-handed gim w them all the way thru shipping and when compared to hanweikatana it was a bit more expensive - but they are also in general the lowest priced distributor (nice to c I was on the right track there)
r u sure it's CDN? well, anyway, even if USD, it's still cheaper than the other one;


Haha, love the Hooter's sign in the Background!
lol - it was an Atlantic City tourney, no surprise;


You're totally into it too, which is nice to see.
thx, yes, there is a part that I leave unchoreographed, where I engage in spontaneous movement - clearly, I was a vicitm of demonic possession as a result...:rolleyes:

[SimonM]

To each their own.

The form was developed by Li Jing-Lin, who was not known for sitting in a circle reciting "Kumbaya."

From the Video Description:

"This is my Wudang TaiJi sword form performed with an Adam Hsu Jian at moderate speed. I've used a functional Lanyard in place of a Tassel, and a Scabbard in place of the free hand's "secret sword" mudra. The Scabbard is used to block, parry or deflect an incoming attack. It is also sometimes used to "receive" the opponent's weapon after being parried by the sword. Most cutting applications in this form involve simultaneously parrying the opponent's weapon with the scabbard while slashing at their wrists or lower legs (and occasionally following up with a chop or thrust to the legs, body or neck); most thrusting applications involve simultaneously parrying and stabbing at the thighs, belly, chest or throat."

Anyone with a Genuine interest in cross-cultural swordplay would do well to learn the meaning of the terms "Mandritto," "Riversi" and "Coup de Jarnac." A good source is "Old Sword Play" by Alfred Hutton (Hey, I just found it online (http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/OldSwordPlay.pdf) too! No need to buy the book like I did!)



Yes, but it sounds NOTHING like the Qi Jian: That blade doesn't "ching," it friggin SINGS when you pull it out.

That link to "Old Sword Play" makes me wish that MCMT had social media functions!

[SimonM]

Also, WANT: The fanciest sword I've ever seen. (http://www.cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2421)

[GeneChing]

Also, WANT: The fanciest sword I've ever seen. (http://www.cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=SH2421)

The swords are designed and produced by Paul Chen, under Hanwei's license as the exclusive supplier of swords to the Shaolin Temple. Paul must be talking about some other Shaolin Temple. :rolleyes:

[Taixuquan99]

Duel at dawn?

[bawang]

real men collect iron mace.

i saw this mongolian mace at a museum, it was 30 pounds, looked badass.

han dynasty calvary sabers are badass too. the blades were 2 meter long and 1 inch thick.

[SimonM]

Paul must be talking about some other Shaolin Temple. :rolleyes:

LOL Yeah, I was sort of scratching my head over that too.

[taai gihk yahn]

Paul must be talking about some other Shaolin Temple. :rolleyes:

it's the Norwegian Shaolin Temple - beautiful plumage!!

[GeneChing]

There's a Norwegian Wing Chun school (http://www.wingchun.no/). ;)

[Taixuquan99]

it's the Norwegian Shaolin Temple - beautiful plumage!!

Their kung fu has a number of deceptive techniques designed to fool an attacker into believing the Nordic fighter is actually already dead. Most famous of these is called "pining for the fjords".

[taai gihk yahn]

There's a Norwegian Wing Chun school (http://www.wingchun.no/). ;)

"www.wingchun.no/"


hmmmm...some sort of subliminal message in that url?

[David Jamieson]

lol.

btw, nice jian play man.
still do it?