Look familiar guys?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taira sensei on short power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok

How to engage your core

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdvW1LZdWI&feature=related

[hskwarrior]

watching the first video, i will say that its very very similar to something we teach in our lineage.

watching second video now

[Golden Arms]

That gentleman has great skill and excellent use of the waist. Thanks for posting those clips.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks.
I am hoping that people, especially us southern dudes, can see the resemblance in some stuff, especially my SPM friends ;D

[Dale Dugas]

Using whole body, as well as a real makiwara that gives, and not the crap you see bolted to a wall.

In his apps, he is using whole body and not just his arms. Hence his opponent is shut down and hit

reminds me of my Uechi Ryu Senior Teachers from Okinawa. Uechi is much more like SPM than Goju is in my opinion.

Nice stuff, great teacher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Using whole body, as well as a real makiwara that gives, and not the crap you see bolted to a wall.

In his apps, he is using whole body and not just his arms. Hence his opponent is shut down and hit

reminds me of my Uechi Ryu Senior Teachers from Okinawa. Uechi is much more like SPM than Goju is in my opinion.

Nice stuff, great teacher.

Oh yes, I see lots of "SPM" in Uechi, or should I say "Lung Yung";)
The southern influence in Goju and Uechi in particular are very noticable, BUt you tend to see it only in the advances levels and it isn't really taught that much in the intermediate levels.
I asked Master Higaonna this one time, years ago at a seminar and he said ( I am paraphrasing of course):
The southern hand is always there, it just needs to core to be developed first and then it is to be introduced.
The thing is, as we can see, it tends to NOT be introduced as much as it should.

[Dale Dugas]

Jook Lum Pai shares much of the same structure with Uechi Ryu.

I met Shifu Roger Hagood many years ago, and he commented as to how I knew the body mechanics.

I then explained my foundations in Uechi Ryu.

Some aspects of Uechi can look very Lung Yingish, but for me its more spm and bak mei all the way, baby.:D

[Hendrik]

Taira sensei on short power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok

How to engage your core

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdvW1LZdWI&feature=related



why is this short power?

[hskwarrior]

why is this short power?

because it is created from a short distance. like bruce lee's one in punch.

[Hendrik]

because it is created from a short distance. like bruce lee's one in punch.

For discussion purpose,

for me, it is not that short distance, take a look at how bruce lee push and the distance waist travel.

[hskwarrior]

For discussion purpose,

for me, it is not that short distance, take a look at how bruce lee push and the distance waist travel.

For some it maybe. others like yourself may know how to generate power from a shorter distance. This master moves his waste as well and has the distance. i think its hard to see cause you see his whole body moving foward at one time as he steps. bruce lee was stationary using all the power from the floor up.

[R]

I would agree that this looks much more SPM/BM than LY as LY does not usually use the phoenix eye/fung sao/feng an choi except in limited amounts in some advanced sets. There is certainly some similarities in force production but not in how the hand is used.

FWIW

R

[Hendrik]

For some it maybe. others like yourself may know how to generate power from a shorter distance.

This master moves his waste as well and has the distance.

i think its hard to see cause you see his whole body moving foward at one time as he steps. bruce lee was stationary using all the power from the floor up.



Frank,

I Understood your points.

1, This master is certainly doing an excellent job.

2, Bruce Lee stuffs, for me, that is just a demo or even cheating. take a look at his back leg push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS6aMdskKSo

3, for me, The acceleration of these type of power is slow, even it might look short distance. it is not the same type of power as Gary Lam once coin the term power point explosion at contact.

[hskwarrior]

Frank,

I Understood your points.

1, This master is certainly doing an excellent job.

2, Bruce Lee stuffs, for me, that is just a demo or even cheating. take a look at his back leg push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS6aMdskKSo

3, for me, The acceleration of these type of power is slow, even it might look short distance. it is not the same type of power as Gary Lam once coin the term power point explosion at contact.

yeah i saw that too..and agree. but to be able to get short power you still need some room to wind up a little, a hair maybe. LOL

[Hendrik]

yeah i saw that too..and agree. but to be able to get short power you still need some room to wind up a little, a hair maybe. LOL



My view is this type of short power has some use for against striking art, but when it comes to facing wrestling art or Suai Chio it really doesnt do that much. This type of short power is just a smaller scale version of so called " long power". I call it psuedo short power.

[hskwarrior]

My view is this type of short power has some use for against striking art, but when it comes to facing wrestling art or Suai Chio it really doesnt do that much. This type of short power is just a smaller scale version of so called " long power". I call it psuedo short power.

I think short power applies to everything you can do really. whether its a throw, a strike, or a block or kick. you dont' need alot of room to generate power. not in all cases. but i learned the short power first from learning Latosa Escrima.

http://youtu.be/dAkzcwCAeDU

&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOlmOzDiMaQ&NR=1

[Hendrik]

I think short power applies to everything you can do really.

whether its a throw, a strike, or a block or kick. you dont' need alot of room to generate power. not in all cases.

but i learned the short power first from learning Latosa Escrima.

http://youtu.be/dAkzcwCAeDU

&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOlmOzDiMaQ&NR=1


Frank,

Thanks for the sharing and appreciate.

For me, these are just Boxing hits with Boxing type of power generation , I dont understand why it is called short power.
may be different people define short power differently.

Seem like all the above so called short power is some kind of body move long distance stuffs.

[hskwarrior]

For us, it trying to generate as much power that you can in a very closed area. like two people in a phone booth. you have to learn how to strike very hard within such a tight confined area like that.


may be different people define short power differently.

this may be true. its just how people perceive it. you'd have to try it out to understand it tho.

[Hendrik]

For us, it trying to generate as much power that you can in a very closed area. like two people in a phone booth. you have to learn how to strike very hard within such a tight confined area like that.

this may be true. its just how people perceive it. you'd have to try it out to understand it tho.



Understood.

Just my extremely picky way of seeing things.

as for your phone booth example, that is a great one. however, if you look at all the above clips, they are either compremise power, acceleration, or time to deliver, theoritically the distance seems to be short but it is always a partial power compare with the so called long power.

if these type of short power is going to do a full strike, the time needed for its execution will be not that short compare with the long power ( with all the body moves..twisted waist ... pushing real foot..etc which the so called short power need.)

Thus, to against a close body take down will not be that usefull at all because that long process time means it could be easily jam. not to mention, once one is in the grappling range this type of short power is not likely happen because its core or waist has already been jam.



Ps. I am just presenting the case not trying to put this type of short power down.

[hskwarrior]

Ps. I am just presenting the case not trying to put this type of short power down.

I understand. you're doing great. :)

[Hardwork108]

I appreciate the roots of karate being linked to Souther TCMA styles, but the power demonstrated in that video was not Chow Gar shock power, that I am aware of.

However, it was interesting and valid as a form of power generations. Thanks for posting.

[TenTigers]

The first vid was interesting. I liked the double impact striking. Very similar to the way I was taught in samjien kuen and also taught to me in Hung Ga by Yee Chi-Wai.
In our spm the strike can deflect while going in but it is preferred to anglearound without touching by using non linear tragectory.
The second vid showed power generation similar to what I was taught in jik bo kuen.

[Hardwork108]

I found this to be a little familiar as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0&feature=related


.

[Indrafist]

There's many ways of generating short power, even off a long arc. If we define short-power as some quality of a specific style or group of styles, then we get one flavour of it. Long-power doesn't have to be long arm. The synchronous turning of the whole body can summate with a short motion of the arm/hand so that the long path is concealed by synchronous 'small' turns in the body creating powerful angular momentum. The long path is barely seen, but it is there, it's just that the delivery point moves in a 'short' arc. Training to arc-segment long-paths, so that you have multiple re-firing points along their trajectory is another way of keying-in unexpected short power that may not require an obviously coiled or compressed posture.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jook Lum Pai shares much of the same structure with Uechi Ryu.

I met Shifu Roger Hagood many years ago, and he commented as to how I knew the body mechanics.

I then explained my foundations in Uechi Ryu.

Some aspects of Uechi can look very Lung Yingish, but for me its more spm and bak mei all the way, baby.:D

I agree.
The "dragon style" mention was because Uechi is based, supposedly, on the Tiger, Crane and Dragon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's many ways of generating short power, even off a long arc. If we define short-power as some quality of a specific style or group of styles, then we get one flavour of it. Long-power doesn't have to be long arm. The synchronous turning of the whole body can summate with a short motion of the arm/hand so that the long path is concealed by synchronous 'small' turns in the body creating powerful angular momentum. The long path is barely seen, but it is there, it's just that the delivery point moves in a 'short' arc. Training to arc-segment long-paths, so that you have multiple re-firing points along their trajectory is another way of keying-in unexpected short power that may not require an obviously coiled or compressed posture.

I agree, for me short power isn't so much power generated over a shorter then average distance, though it is also that of course, but the ability/skill to "refire" without "loading" up again.

[Brule]

watching the first video, i will say that its very very similar to something we teach in our lineage.

watching second video now

hskwarrior,

Out of curiosity, when i think of short power for some reason i don't think of styles like CLF. To me they are more of a continuous power system. What kind of examples can you show me where CLF uses or trains short power?

[sanjuro_ronin]

hskwarrior,

Out of curiosity, when i think of short power for some reason i don't think of styles like CLF. To me they are more of a continuous power system. What kind of examples can you show me where CLF uses or trains short power?

Not to answer for Frank but I heard this often about HK too and the fact is that YES, short power is trained and is supposed t be used, often actually since HK ( and CLF) is a middle to short range system.

[Brule]

Not to answer for Frank but I heard this often about HK too and the fact is that YES, short power is trained and is supposed t be used, often actually since HK ( and CLF) is a middle to short range system.

See in HK i think of the opposite, when i think of short power, forst thing that comes to mind is HK.

[hskwarrior]

hskwarrior,

Out of curiosity, when i think of short power for some reason i don't think of styles like CLF. To me they are more of a continuous power system. What kind of examples can you show me where CLF uses or trains short power?

the way my sifu has taught us you have long range, medium range, and short range (clinch range) type of power. Examples? well, its obvious that CLF can't use its long range stuff up close so we have to rely on knee's, elbows, and very short strikes. everything we train long range is meant to give us more power for short range.

[TenTigers]

In CLF, if you hook the incoming strike, whipping it out of the way and then shoot into charp-choy, it is one example of short power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Goju and Uechi have never really tried to "deny" their TCMA backgrounds and in many ways, even though modified to better suit the okinawan way, they have kept the traditions of TCMA.
I have seen some Goju guys that if they were wearing "kung fu jamies' would be mistake for kung fu people.

[JamesC]

For the uninitiated, does "short power" = fajin?

Because the image I have in my mind is the type of stuff you see from Xingyi and White Crane guys.

If someone could confirm, or correct, this I would be most grateful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For the uninitiated, does "short power" = fajin?

Because the image I have in my mind is the type of stuff you see from Xingyi and White Crane guys.

If someone could confirm, or correct, this I would be most grateful.

That is ONE way of looking at it:
Fajing is "explosive" jing so it can be either long or short, but typically associate with short power - striking with minimal distance from target.

[JamesC]

Okay, thanks

[TenTigers]

I think what Indra is leading at is that short power can be the end of the power chain.
In training, the long power is used to develop power throughout the power chain, which then, with proper training, the last link can be utilized.
The Karateka was showing just this very concept, which is why to some, it was not recognized as short power.
There are in fact, many different ways to develop and utilize short power. Coiling, sinking, swallow and spit, shifting, whipping, converging energy,etc.
Sure, if you are only familiar with one method, then anything else is unfamiliar to you, outside your experience, and thus will not fit into your belief system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think what Indra is leading at is that short power can be the end of the power chain.
In training, the long power is used to develop power throughout the power chain, which then, with proper training, the last link can be utilized.
The Karateka was showing just this very concept, which is why to some, it was not recognized as short power.
There are in fact, many different ways to develop and utilize short power. Coiling, sinking, swallow and spit, shifting, whipping, converging energy,etc.
Sure, if you are only familiar with one method, then anything else is unfamiliar to you, outside your experience, and thus will not fit into your belief system.

TT has fajing the correct right in the prostate gland.

[Indrafist]

I think what Indra is leading at is that short power can be the end of the power chain.
In training, the long power is used to develop power throughout the power chain, which then, with proper training, the last link can be utilized.
The Karateka was showing just this very concept, which is why to some, it was not recognized as short power.
There are in fact, many different ways to develop and utilize short power. Coiling, sinking, swallow and spit, shifting, whipping, converging energy,etc.
Sure, if you are only familiar with one method, then anything else is unfamiliar to you, outside your experience, and thus will not fit into your belief system.

Yes indeed.
It's also possible to entrain long paths so that you 'arc-segment' them even for styles like Hop-Gar, CLF and HK's long fists. I teach my students to break the long path down into useable 'short' segments, and lead with motion from the body, rather than leading the body with the technique. This is similar to stances forming from motion, rather than motion being derived from static stances. This way the gings 'appear' in the arc path howsoever broken down (segmented). I do this with Lion's Roars 8 basic seed fists, so CLF could easily do the same with their 10 basic hands. This is of course only one way, and CLF has its own energy and bandwidth of expression for its gings. I teach my students to go from long to short, then back to long again, with the short power firing points grooved in. Then, then can develop whole-body ging along the whole arc length. Re using long hands at very close range, I tend to encourage this, rather than the more common way of stand-off and flailing at a distance (often a mutual 'miss'-distance) where the strikes at best neutralize one another, or just miss altogether. Against extended long bridges, I'd encourage short-hand/short power to break up the limbs and structure, then blast through with penetrating long fist at very close range. If it goes to a clinch then of course things change accordingly. With synchronous rotation of the power chain you can manifest a very long path, that is visually compressed, and only seen as a short motion in the attacking limb. The motion is like the angular momentum of an electric screwdriver.

[TenTigers]

Loong Ying Moor Kiu Sifu Chan Duk-San once said, "Chase the opponent with long technique, defend with short bridge." I found this to be intriguing.

[Jimbo]

the way my sifu has taught us you have long range, medium range, and short range (clinch range) type of power. Examples? well, its obvious that CLF can't use its long range stuff up close so we have to rely on knee's, elbows, and very short strikes. everything we train long range is meant to give us more power for short range.

Very true.

Plus, pretty much every long movement in CLF can be shortened up to use short power to strike/deflect with. The idea of CLF being classified as "long-range fighting" is only partly correct. Like any system, as you develop, those same long principles, along with the power generation for them, are modified and shortened. At that point, many of the movements can resemble "short-hand" kung fu in application.

[Frost]

Taira sensei on short power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok

How to engage your core

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdvW1LZdWI&feature=related

yep seen it in tai chi i used to do, as well as one of the southern arts i trained nice demo shows nothing is really unique and that i people train hard enough they tend to end up at the same place

[Golden Arms]

Just to be clear: My comment about his skill refers to how it was used in relation to Hung Gar style of movement. What he is doing does not have much of a White Eyebrow flavor in my eyes.

[Brule]

I guess my understanding of short power differs from others.

[Hendrik]

I guess my understanding of short power differs from others.


For me,


Inch power or short power in TCMA, in my understanding means fast acceleration within short distance. and it can be done in many ways: some with body as unity some with localization. this type of power can be evoke even after one is under the grapple's hug.

Then, it got to Bruce Lee's era where Bruce redefine it with his demo to become short distance movement of the hand. and then more definitions arise.


The clips above is not short power or inch power with reference to the IMA's fajin such as in White Crane or Xing Yi or Taiji...., it is a basic external TCMA power with some short arm positioning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess my understanding of short power differs from others.

Well, the issue is that there is NOT just ONE way to define it since there is just ONE way to express it, right?
The human body only works in a finite number of ways and on a finite number of pathways.
But for some, unless it is the way THEY THINK it must be then it isn't and that is the issue.
Remove the "exotic terminology" ( and you always have to do that) and you relaize that everything the human body does is in relation to physics and how it is expressed via bio-mechanics of the human body.
IF you define short power as explosive strikes delivered over a minimal distance with high impact force and kinetic energy then, ANY strike that has those qualities IS a "short power" strike.
The definition I gave is a typical one for an impact strike done by the human body.

NOW, what many people define as short power has LESS to do with the outcome but MORE the generation and there is where the things get tricky.

[TenTigers]

For me,


Inch power or short power in TCMA, in my understanding means fast acceleration within short distance. and it can be done in many ways: some with body as unity some with localization. this type of power can be evoke even after one is under the grapple's hug.

Then, it got to Bruce Lee's era where Bruce redefine it with his demo to become short distance movement of the hand. and then more definitions arise.


The clips above is not short power or inch power with reference to the IMA's fajin such as in White Crane or Xing Yi or Taiji...., it is a basic external TCMA power with some short arm positioning.

Hey Hendrik, I'm not picking on you, but do you realize that those words mean the same thing?
Could you be more clear in your explanation?
Also, how do you define the difference between internal and external?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also, how do you define the difference between internal and external?

WHY??? why oh why??? just....WHY ?????

[TenTigers]

WHY??? why oh why??? just....WHY ?????

some people like squid, some people like clams, some use spearing, or killies...
depends on the species.

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik, I'm not picking on you, but do you realize that those words mean the same thing?
Could you be more clear in your explanation?
Also, how do you define the difference between internal and external?

For me,

1, they do not have the same meaning due to the term fast acceleration. or how is the fast the power initiated when the physical is just started to move. Twisting the waist is not fast at all, it takes time.

2, the difference between internal and external are actually mature in TCMA and very clearly define after 1800. it exist since 1600 but in 1800 it has already offically has classical writing which define it, and Xing Yi uses this 1800 classical writing. However, White Crane of Fujian which was orginate in 1650's also share the elements in their frame structure.


So, by evidents of the evolution of TCMA these things exist even thought many were not expose to these details.

Internal power generation consist of the internal Qi channeling, momentum handling in addition to the general external art's muscle and physical body. there are certain alignment differents between external and internal. While there are similar alignment between internal art for example Xing Yi from the North and White Crane from the south.

[Hendrik]

it is similar to a car, the initial acceleration from 0 to 60mph in how many seconds is the key. So do Short power. sure, all car spin the wheels but the engine makes it different.

one can think about internal art short power as a turbo engine. internal Qi channeling is turbo and thus it needs a different kind of frame or structure to support the turbo that is a fact not a marketing ad.

[Robinhood]

Yes, I think short power has been changed or relabled, most people think of it as start from short distance and end up at long distance. That is just long push, from short distance.

Short power only travels short distance, but starts at no distance.

[hskwarrior]

Yes, I think short power has been changed or relabled, most people think of it as start from short distance and end up at long distance. That is just long push, from short distance.

Short power only travels short distance, but starts at no distance.

Short Power is not meant to start out short then go long. not as i see it. we've been trained to go maybe two inches past the target no further.

[TenTigers]

Short Power is not meant to start out short then go long. not as i see it. we've been trained to go maybe two inches past the target no further.

Bruce Lee's demo was more of a push. The body moved backwards, thus dissipating the force.
Most of our short power is a jolt, meaning that it impacts inside the body. The body absorbs the full impact of the strike.
The pulse used in CPR is similar.
Kung-Fu is like the dark side of CPR...I picture Darth Vader driving a black ambulance with the stormtrooper theme song playing out a loudspeaker, rather than a siren.....
yeah...like that.

[hskwarrior]

Most of our short power is a jolt, meaning that it impacts inside the body.

you worded it better...but exactly.