Touch Hands

[YouKnowWho]

Most of the "touch hands" that I had experienced all ended up with wrestling matches. It always made my opponent very mad because he didn't expect that. It was not my fault because I truly didn't know what "touch hands" means.

When you train alone in the park, a stranger walks forward and want to "touch hands" with you. What does "touch hands" mean to you? Does he want to play

- push hands?
- wrestling?
- boxing?
- kick boxing?
- anything go?

How do you know that how far that you should go? Should you knock him down ASAP, or should you wait for him to knock you down when you do not pay enough attention?

What's your opinion on this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Touch hands where I come from means fist fight, LOL !

Seriously, I think that it depends on what is agreed on, some people just want test certain things and others truly want to let their hands "do the talking".
As long as things are agreed upon from the beginning, it's all good.

[bawang]

if he kepe touching your hands it means he want to do bang bang bang in you anoos

[Subitai]

I've always enjoyed this very much.


I've always used the analogy of a scale of some sort.
Meaning left side is very friendly and the right side is a knockdown dragout fight.

Left (0%)----------------------------------------------------------(100%) Right


Most people in parks seem to play right in the middle (50%) up to about (80%) or so. Not enough to hurt bad but still enough to test and throw or lock some one down...then perhaps still have a beer afterwards.

It's usually the younger guys who go off to an obscure place and mix it up allot higher. However when they do this...Someones PRIDE gets hurt, followed by someone FACE getting hurt ;) Then, less and less people show up. It's sux but it's human nature.

So basically it all depends on how far you and your opponent want to go.

I say the more Touch Hands you do, at as many levels as you can....the better!! High and low level, it all adds to your POT of skill. Just so long as you never quit.

"O"

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Crossing hands = freindly test of skill.

Touch hands = an out right full contact winner take all challenge match where someone is getting Knocked the F out, and/or hurt.

[YouKnowWho]

So basically it all depends on how far you and your opponent want to go.
The problem is you don't know how far the other person wants to go. You may not want to hurt a tiger, but you don't know that tiger has intention to eat you alive. He may say that he just want to play "Taiji push hands" and in the middle of the gentleman game, he may attack you by suprise. You have to be careful every single second. That's not a good feeling at all. To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. Sometime you just can't trust a stranger 100%. But to knock him down in 3 seconds may be a bit too much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is you don't know how far the other person want to go. He may say that he just want to play "Taiji push hands" and in the middle of the gentleman game, he may attack you by suprise. You have to be conscious every single second and that's not a good feeling at all. To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. Sometime you just can trust a stranger 100%.

You should NEVER trust a stranger that asks you to "touch hands", at all.

[EarthDragon]

Crossing hands = freindly test of skill.

Touch hands = an out right full contact winner take all challenge match

well said, this is my interpretation as well, there IS a difference, most want to cross hands just to test thier skill against your or your skill against thiers, not looking to fight perse.

[bawang]

in america the only people who will ask you to touch hands are crazy wing chun people, who will chi sao with their eyes closed then suddenly try to eye gouge you

[YouKnowWho]

well said, this is my interpretation as well, there IS a difference, most want to cross hands just to test thier skill against your or your skill against thiers, not looking to fight perse.

What's the difference between "test their skill against your skill" and "fight"? I just don't see much difference there. Either the stranger knocks/takes you down or you knock/take him down, there is nothing in between. :confused:


in america the only people who will ask you to touch hands are crazy wing chun people, who will chi sao with their eyes closed then suddenly try to eye gouge you
Thing like that had happened quite often in the ancient time. It will happen today and even in the future.

[bawang]

after you take him down, put your pee pee in his poo poo chute, make sure he never dare challenge you again ever.

[wenshu]

after you take him down, put your pee pee in his poo poo chute, make sure he never dare challenge you again ever.

Sounds like a marriage proposal to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

after you take him down, put your pee pee in his poo poo chute, make sure he never dare challenge you again ever.

I once took out a trouble maker at Judo, choked him out and then we pulled down his pants and wrote "property of the kodokan" on his ass in marker.

[bawang]

NICE

certified lol

[donjitsu2]

I haven't heard "touch hands".

The phrase I get is "spar" (though that is rare, most people just ask what I'm doing, then they leave).

I ask to lay down ground rules first. Since no one has ever brought an extra set of boxing, strikes to the head are always eliminated.

After that, its strikes and takedowns at about 80%.


That's just been my experience.

[bawang]

I haven't heard "touch hands".



to tell the truth me neither. traditionally in the north you just spit on the sifu, then he is honor bound to fight you.


in hunan they used to have you stand face to face and take turns chop each other with dull meat cleavers. if you flinch you lose.

[YouKnowWho]

Oneday I was training in the park, a Taiji teacher just finished his class and walked forward. He wanted to touch hand with me. I

- grab his wrist, he said, "no grabbing".
- sickle his leg, he said, "no leg".
- press on his neck, he said, "no brute force".
- tried to run him down, he said "be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".

When he pushed my arm, I stepped back, he said, "You lose". :(

After that experience, no matter what "touch hands" that any stranger wants, I always start him with a "head lock". :D

[bawang]

Oneday I was training in the park, a Taiji teacher just finished his class and walked forward. He wanted to touch hand with me. I

- grab his wrist, he said, "no grabbing".

you shouldve said, "i dont do requests". then brutally ground and pound him.

unleash the beast inside.

[Subitai]

The problem is you don't know how far the other person wants to go. You may not want to hurt a tiger, but you don't know that tiger has intention to eat you alive. He may say that he just want to play "Taiji push hands" and in the middle of the gentleman game, he may attack you by suprise. You have to be careful every single second. That's not a good feeling at all. To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. Sometime you just can't trust a stranger 100%. But to knock him down in 3 seconds may be a bit too much.

Touch hands ? Cross Hands??

To me there isn't and shouldn't any distinction between the 2. Because when 2 guys touch hands it either is a mutual respect, someone gets hurt or somewhere in between. What you call it means nothing if it turns into something else.

Geez it's not that complicated!!


The reason I even brought my scale example up was..it's just another tool in the shed. Meaning touching hands with NEW people you've never met before is the BEST way IMO to judge yourself. You're out of your comfort zone and the soon I can dial in on them the better i'm doing.

As a Sifu I do this as often as I can...and YES I have had the occassional Jerk try to Ramp it up all the sudden from 50% to 100% just to see if I knew my stuff.

Don't you think I'm aware of that possibility...Especially as a teacher? You state the obvious.

If a guy, does manage to surprise you so what? Its a BS tactic and if your pride is really that hurt...Go get 'em and kick his arse!!

But as I said, MOST people are fair in there range of effort .

[bawang]

Touch hands ? Cross Hands??

To me there isn't and shouldn't any distinction between the 2. Because when 2 guys touch hands it either is a mutual respect, someone gets hurt or somewhere in between. What you call it means nothing if it turns into something else.

Geez it's not that complicated!!


The reason I even brought my scale example up was..it's just another tool in the shed. Meaning touching hands with NEW people you've never met before is the BEST way IMO to judge yourself. You're out of your comfort zone and the soon I can dial in on them the better i'm doing.

As a Sifu I do this as often as I can...and YES I have had the occassional Jerk try to Ramp it up all the sudden from 50% to 100% just to see if I knew my stuff.

Don't you think I'm aware of that possibility...Especially as a teacher? You state the obvious.

If a guy, does manage to surprise you so what? Its a BS tactic and if your pride is really that hurt...Go get 'em and kick his arse!!

But as I said, MOST people are fair in there range of effort .

ok.

gfhfghgfhgj

[EarthDragon]

YKW

What's the difference between "test their skill against your skill" and "fight"? I just don't see much difference there. Either the stranger knocks/takes you down or you knock/take him down, there is nothing in between.

touch hands......testing skill means in a gentlemans fasion not trying to do damage hurt or win perse, but more like an opportunity to see the weakness in the defence, skill level, the footwork, the trapping, parrying, blocking and rooting. knowing where your limitations and your weaknesses are when TESTING against another. this is what i meant.

now on the other hand a challenge is much different this is "cross hands" you fight, plain and simply, though most of the fellow martial artsits that I have ask me were more looking to touch than cross, just to test my or thier skill in a friendly mannor.

[YouKnowWho]

rooting.
Since you are talking about rooting, if you can't take your opponent down, your opponent will think that your throwing skill suck. If you take him down but you don't know if he knows how to take a fall, will that be too much for a gentlemen game?

That line is just too hard to draw. :(

[David Jamieson]

The tai chi push hands that is so soft it is not about pushing anything really is not for learning martial arts per se in my opinion. It's more of an early supplemental exercise.

It can make you aware of stuff that is going on inside of you though.

Still, how many times do you need to know that your joints work a certain way under a slight resistance. You have to ramp up those exercises to get the connect and throw or connect and grapple value out of them.

Typical push hands seems to castrate the learning curve by forever staying at the "listening" stage. Which is "internal" to each player whilst working together.

Touch hands, play, spar all are the same thing.


That whole delineation of gong sao vs doc sao thing more or less outlines broad ground rules.

dueling is dead.

[Lucas]

dueling is dead.

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/forum/40000/40226_1250539095822_full.jpg

[EarthDragon]

Since you are talking about rooting, if you can't take your opponent down, your opponent will think that your throwing skill suck. If you take him down but you don't know if he knows how to take a fall, will that be too much for a gentlemen game?

That line is just too hard to draw.

I see your point. It is hard to compare when we are not going all out... your exaample above, but clearly some agrrement can be aranged so it doesnt get out of hand or emotion and ego plays in, then you have the tendancy to ramp it up to the next level.

All im saying is that you can test and compare yourself to those who you think might be better and see for yourself.
I remember in SF in 1996 a 10 animal sifu from chicago banard, stopped into the school and asked to see shyun's mantis, before you could turn your head you heard his change in his dress pants jingle as he rushed the challanger and made him retreat while he attempted to block and shyun locked up his arms. that was all it took for this gentalmen to see shyun skill was superior to his..........what else do you need would be all I ask?

[-N-]

Oneday I was training in the park, a Taiji teacher just finished his class and walked forward. He wanted to touch hand with me. I

- grab his wrist, he said, "no grabbing".
- sickle his leg, he said, "no leg".
- press on his neck, he said, "no brute force".
- tried to run him down, he said "be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".

When he pushed my arm, I stepped back, he said, "You lose". :(

After that experience, no matter what "touch hands" that any stranger wants, I always start him with a "head lock". :D

Maybe he meant he wanted to hold hands :D

[Brule]

Touch hands, cross hands are what people who've seen too many kung fu flicks say to make them themselves feel tough.

One day my wife and i were at the park, enjoying the summer day. A guy came up out of nowhere right at me and says, "wanna wrestle". I said sure, we started off and it was mutual respect, no ego. He knocked me down, pinned me. We went again and i got him down. A couple of exchanges later where it was a stalemate and he says, "thanks for the time, i've asked a lot of people to wrestle and you're the first to take me up on it." and left.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Touch hands, cross hands are what people who've seen too many kung fu flicks say to make them themselves feel tough.

One day my wife and i were at the park, enjoying the summer day. A guy came up out of nowhere right at me and says, "wanna wrestle". I said sure, we started off and it was mutual respect, no ego. He knocked me down, pinned me. We went again and i got him down. A couple of exchanges later where it was a stalemate and he says, "thanks for the time, i've asked a lot of people to wrestle and you're the first to take me up on it." and left.

Gay much?
:D

[Taixuquan99]

I know a guy who challenged Bruce Campbell to a wrestling match. Campbell declined.

[Brule]

Gay much?
:D

come to think of it, the guy did look like you, so.......:p

[EarthDragon]

Touch hands, cross hands are what people who've seen too many kung fu flicks say to make them themselves feel tough.

its actually is a very old gentlemans custom as a show of respect to test your skills. Not for people who think their tough..... PS it was around long before telvision.

[bawang]

Touch hands, cross hands are what people who've seen too many kung fu flicks say to make them themselves feel tough.

One day my wife and i were at the park, enjoying the summer day. A guy came up out of nowhere right at me and says, "wanna wrestle". I said sure, we started off and it was mutual respect, no ego. He knocked me down, pinned me. We went again and i got him down. A couple of exchanges later where it was a stalemate and he says, "thanks for the time, i've asked a lot of people to wrestle and you're the first to take me up on it." and left.

that is an act of great manliness

you are the only true warrior left

its actually is a very old gentlemans custom as a show of respect to test your skills. Not for people who think their tough..... PS it was around long before telvision.

nope

[sanjuro_ronin]

come to think of it, the guy did look like you, so.......:p

Touche !!

Flamer !

[EarthDragon]

bawang,
you disagree? can you prove otherwise? soyour agreeing with

Touch hands, cross hands are what people who've seen too many kung fu flicks say to make them themselves feel tough.

[Brule]

its actually is a very old gentlemans custom as a show of respect to test your skills. Not for people who think their tough..... PS it was around long before telvision.

which movie was that from?

[EarthDragon]

LOL IDK it was either karate kid part 6 or enter the dragon

[David Jamieson]

come to think of it, the guy did look like you, so.......:p

zing!

lol

[Lucas]

you scare? :p

http://www.themoderndaypirates.com/content/duel/washington.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

One day my wife and i were at the park, enjoying the summer day. A guy came up out of nowhere right at me and says, "wanna wrestle". I said sure,...
You are a lucky guy. I wish I can meet that kind of people as you did. Yesterday I drove to Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo and put a note on their university union board to ask anybody who can contact me if he may be interested in sparring or wrestling. I'll be very happy if I can have someone to spar or wrestle everyday. The TCMA just can't be trained "solo".

[Brule]

You are a lucky guy. I wish I can meet that kind of people as you did. Yesterday I drove to Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo and put a note on their university union board to ask anybody who can contact me if he may be interested in sparring or wrestling. I'll be very happy if I can have someone to spar or wrestle everyday. The TCMA just can't be trained "solo".

It's the only it every happened and that was 10+ yrs ago.

[Brule]

This is how we used to "ask" for a freindly exchange of skills.....


http://fi.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-idemandsatisfaction.gif