Are TMAs mostly dead?

[andyhaas]

I was thinking about the current MMA popularity and wondering why there aren't more people enrolled in martial arts schools and traditional martial arts, when I came across this article.

http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/2324/when-martial-arts-become-mainstream/

What lept out at me was it listed the "self defense" market as being different than the martial arts market.

I thought about it and how many martial arts schools really teach self defense? Karate, TKD, 'kung fu', etc., how many really teach realistic self defense from attacks?

I am thinking that many TMAs have become so watered down now and so far from self defense as to be 'dead'. Meaning that somebody won't gain substantial self defense skill from studying the TMA.

How many people spend years learning forms and wanting to learn self defense, and then basically give up and make excuses? It's no wonder MMA is popular when it focuses on short-term fighting skills rather than lengthy forms without applications.

[hskwarrior]

If one kung fu master has ever killed a person using gung fu then the answer is yes.

[andyhaas]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later. For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start. If enough students demand applications right away, the instructors will have to do it or lose business.

Since supposedly this waiting developed to weed out students with 'good' character vs. students with 'bad' character, just don't fall for the 'good' vs. 'bad' character arguments, and explain that you want to learn self defense right away. Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

If instructors develop a MMA approach to teaching TMAs, then it will probably save TMAs rather than them just falling into performance art with showy forms without any fighting or applications.

[Lucas]

I think many TMA's have been 'watered down' but I also think its a partial isolation, as in it becomes a case by case ordeal. Ideally any tma school should be able to offer; practical self defense, sport, and fitness curriculums, as well as combinations of such. You can definitely find gyms like this throughout the world, yet at the same time and in the same cities you will also find what i refer to in my mind as physical art schools which oftentimes combine light combat elements, artistic expression and health/fitness. I think every thing has its place, but i also feel honest distinction is needed in self representation and advertisements by such organizations. To say you offer 'martial' when in reality its a dim shadow of such is not only disrespectful to your students, potential students, yourself and your teachers, but it is also very dishonorable and, imo, despicable. Honesty is a virtue. People who cannot offer an honest declaration of what they offer deserve no truly dedicated students.

[David Jamieson]

Well, there are some inherent problems with throwing people int eh soup too soon.

even mma schools that do it see student loss.

conditioning, endurance and high level skill development take time.

Now you can really apply that stuff in a short line, but you won't be that good.
After time, you get better, and with practice you get better.

It doesn't matter what is being taught. it matters how it is being taught.

yes, if you spend three years doing nothing but katas, taolu, or "sets" then you will not likely be able to apply without taken what's in those sets and drilling them, then freestyling with them whilst sparring.

So, if you just want to learn to fight, I agree, you don't need kung fu, you just need to get fighting.

Kung fu has way more than fighting. Lots of good stuff in there to benefit from without ever once punching anyone in the face as hard as you can with the best structure and angle to do it from. :)

[Lucas]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later. For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start. If enough students demand applications right away, the instructors will have to do it or lose business.

Since supposedly this waiting developed to weed out students with 'good' character vs. students with 'bad' character, just don't fall for the 'good' vs. 'bad' character arguments, and explain that you want to learn self defense right away. Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

If instructors develop a MMA approach to teaching TMAs, then it will probably save TMAs rather than them just falling into performance art with showy forms without any fighting or applications.

agree. I am a grown man. When I go to a new school if apps are not worked early on I leave. I don't have time to spend months or god for bid years Working my way up' to applications.

[hskwarrior]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later.

thats a pretty blanket statement. How do you know what schools teach behind closed doors? Videos, UFC, MMA is the not a good enough answer since there are many gung fu people who do train to fight but have no desire to compete, no desire to post videos of what they do.


For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start.

This is a kung fu forum. Karate has their own. and you assume that there are NO people out there teaching techniques before teaching the forms.


explain that you want to learn self defense right away.

Not everyone learns martial arts for combat reasons. If someone came to me wanting to learn combat only, they will never see our forms except in a performance.


Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

you don't sound too confident about the above statement.


then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.


What teacher only teaches forms without explaining the application? :confused:

[hskwarrior]

agree. I am a grown man. When I go to a new school if apps are not worked early on I leave. I don't have time to spend months or god for bid years Working my way up' to applications.

thats understandable if you only want to learn to fight using a specific system. I've given three decades of my life to CLF. I still don't feel let down by it.

[andyhaas]

When I took aikido for a few months, and judo as well, they structure their classes with applications first rather than forms, and there were few complaints or people quitting. If karate/TKD/CMA followed this approach, they probably wouldn't lose too many students.

Personally I don't think I'd take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I'd die of boredom. The last one I took, baguazhang, I spent about 4.5 years just doing forms before the instructor taught me a lot of apps, and that was ENOUGH of that for FOREVER, I think.

In short, I don't think it would be a problem for other MAs to follow a more MMA or aikido/judo type approach. It doesn't have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing. It could be a drills/application type of thing.

[doug maverick]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

[hskwarrior]

Personally I don't think I'd take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I'd die of boredom.

so you've never learned a form in your life?


It doesn't have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing.

Question. Isn't that what you're supposed to do?

[Lucas]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

we all been hit in the head too many times and forget :p

[andyhaas]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

I guess whenever I start thinking, "I want to take a MA." I go out and look what's out there, get frustrated, come on here, and think, "Okay, this is what I want."

Like the baguazhang I took, if the instructor offered it with apps up front and I think we called it 'roushou' in aikido or judo, then that would be kindof ideal.

If there are 50 threads talking about the same thing, then maybe that's because there's a lot of people who want this. Not that the instructors will ever change, but hopefully if enough people ask / demand / walk away if they don't offer, then they will listen.

[andyhaas]

so you've never learned a form in your life?

What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years ... I never said I never learned any forms. I just don't want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.

[hskwarrior]

What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years ... I never said I never learned any forms. I just don't want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.

Then i don't think its your fault then. the person teaching you the forms should have taught you how to use what you are learning and drill you on it.

[Lucas]

I'm ok learning forms but I think you can teach application along side that is directly related to the set. Personally I would ratherearn app, then the form section its for. You understand the form better that way. Imo

[hskwarrior]

I'm ok learning forms but I think you can teach application along side that is directly related to the set.

that is exactly what i teach. section by section and how to use it. drill it, then practice with another partner before sparring and trying to apply what the just learned.

[David Jamieson]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

Probably because in the space and time we are in, it's the question and the conundrum that is faced in regards to understanding what works martially and how to bring that to the fore in the traditional martial arts which have been somewhat corroded over the years by shifting too much to mysticism and cultural immersion and less so about the matter at hand of making a person stronger and strong enough to not be an easy target and to not present themselves as one in their every day life as well.

When a person makes the connection that they are physically capable, they are then empowered and all sorts of doors open to them and their forward progress in life.

In anything. Kung fu is a way of teaching a person to learn how to connect their mind and body in a very refined way. It hasn't put forward a large effort to showcase it's full spectrum of fighting skills in the current fighting arena precisely because of all the other aspects of kung fu and the many schools being fragmented, not in federations and not practicing the sport combat aspects of kung fu which are literally there to actually test your abilities and at the same time to teach you or empower your connection to mind and body as a unit.

/¢2 :)

[andyhaas]

that is exactly what i teach. section by section and how to use it. drill it, then practice with another partner before sparring and trying to apply what the just learned.

I don't think forms are useless, because I think they not might be too bad for solo work.

I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms ... LOL

[David Jamieson]

I don't think forms are useless, because I think they might be too bad for solo work.

I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms ... LOL

All the stuff you took out, take it to the heavy bag and work it.
Change it to get proper force and distance, then drill it while correcting your structure according to the distance and timing required to successfully execute the shape(combo).

Look to shorten time and distance whilst increasing force and ability to repeat with rapidity.

Anything that doesn't work after several attempts, put it on the back burner and use something else.

In forms. consider the foot work into it as well.:)

[hskwarrior]

I don't think forms are useless, because I think they might be too bad for solo work.

I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms ... LOL

Full Circle

[dirtyrat]

mostly dead? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbE8E1ez97M

[Northwind]

What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years ... I never said I never learned any forms. I just don't want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.

So that means TMAs are mostly dead? lol...

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think forms are useless, because I think they not might be too bad for solo work.

I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms ... LOL
When you are home by yourself, forms will be your only friend besides your other training equipments. The question is what kind of forms do you train. Most forms are designed for teaching and learning only. They are not designed for training. You will need "special" form for your personal training. Where is that "special" form? That "special" form doesn't exist on this planet. You have to create it yourself. If you have 100 different drills, you can link it anyway that you want on any given day. make sure the connection make combat sense (move 1 sets up move 2, move 2 sets up move 3, ...). It's a challenge task and not an easy job.

[SPJ]

I was thinking about the current MMA popularity and wondering why there aren't more people enrolled in martial arts schools and traditional martial arts, when I came across this article.

http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/2324/when-martial-arts-become-mainstream/

What lept out at me was it listed the "self defense" market as being different than the martial arts market.

I thought about it and how many martial arts schools really teach self defense? Karate, TKD, 'kung fu', etc., how many really teach realistic self defense from attacks?

I am thinking that many TMAs have become so watered down now and so far from self defense as to be 'dead'. Meaning that somebody won't gain substantial self defense skill from studying the TMA.

How many people spend years learning forms and wanting to learn self defense, and then basically give up and make excuses? It's no wonder MMA is popular when it focuses on short-term fighting skills rather than lengthy forms without applications.

yes. MMA do not have weapon. so MMA is not a complete "style".

if CMA schools focusing on weapons, staff, spear, sword, etc

staff for self defense.

not just open hand stuff.

--

[YouKnowWho]

MMA do not have weapon. --

A MMA guy challenged a TCMA guy. The TCMA guy accepted. During the duel day, the MMA guy brought his 4 oz MMA gloves, the TCMA guy brought his 80 lb Guan Dao.

[andyhaas]

A MMA guy challenged a TCMA guy. The TCMA guy accepted. During the duel day, the MMA guy brought his 4 oz MMA gloves, the TCMA guy brought his 80 lb Guan Dao.

Yeah, MMA doesn't have any weapons. Not that most people carry around an 80 lb guan dao in their back pocket.

Well, if someday I get enough money to set up a school and design a curriculum, maybe I'll design baguazhang taught in the style of Aikido taught without any forms until later, if people want to learn some forms for practicing at home.

[Mulong]

TMA or classical martial arts isn’t dead at all, but flourishing underground the way it should be. Indeed, MMA is the rage as the ninja crazy was twenty years ago. We are witnessing another trend.

However, if TMA is being perceived in a commercial sense then it has been dead for the past 30 years, but as a viable art form it will never die. :cool:

[doug maverick]

TMA or classical martial arts isn’t dead at all, but flourishing underground the way it should be. Indeed, MMA is the rage as the ninja crazy was twenty years ago. We are witnessing another trend.

However, if TMA is being perceived in a commercial sense then it has been dead for the past 30 years, but as a viable art form it will never die. :cool:

i actually dont see mma as a trend, not in the least...all those other crazes weren't generating the kind of $$ mma is..i think mma as a sport will supersede boxing eventually...not in the foreseeable future, but soon. and i think its going to be around for a very long time...and this is coming from someone who has practiced TMA his whole life and continue to do so...its just facts are facts money talks everything else takes a hike. and mma is gonna be a billion dollar business if it already isnt.

[Mulong]

Doug, as sport yes, but on a commercial/ recreational sense not really; how many commercial/recreational boxing gym are out there? The only chain I’m aware is LABoxing.

We should take into account most individuals doing MMA are doing it recreationally not as a sport; hence, a trend in a commercial sense.

[TenTigers]

i actually dont see mma as a trend, not in the least...all those other crazes wasnt generating the kind of $$ mma is..i think mma as a sport will supercede boxing eventually...not in the foreseeable future, but soon. and i think its going to be around for a very long time...and this is coming from someone who has practiced TMA his whole life and continue to do so...its just facts are facts money talks everything else takes a hike. and mma is gonna be a billion dollar business if it already isnt.

Most open door TCMA schools are adding in more classes in sanda/sanshou, and shuai jiao, to keep up with the "trend." Otherwise, prospective students will simply go to the hack kempo school down the block, who is teaching bjj from a video...
Nothing wrong with that, as it gets TCMAists to re-evaluate their teaching methods.

What bothers me is that there are TMA schools teaching Kisi and Krav Maga rather than looking within their own art to teach effective self-defense. I don't get that.

[Mulong]

Sadly few Chinese stylists realize that CMA is tactical fighting; I have been stating this for years. It seems we only see competitive fighting as viable mean. :(

[Ray Pina]

Judo is alive and well.
Jiu-Jitsu is thriving.
Thai Boxing has spread worldwide
Hardcore karate still exists... it hasn't become all Paul Mitchell silver nunchucks in latin America.

Ba Gua and HSing-I are still really alive with my master... when he's gone, I don't know. That's why I tried to get on their a$$es. The blue print will be left behind. They have that potential.

Wing Chun is alive but should die. The most over rated system. The best of it is pretty much all on the big screen today.

Boxing is losing popularity but still very much alive. And worth keeping alive.
Wrestling has always been and always will be.

MMA is growing fast. I hope it expands to bokens with shoulder pads/helmets.

[ginosifu]

Are TMA's mostly dead

Have you been to every city in the USA or how about the world? Sometimes we see only the bright shiny stuff in front of and never see anything else.

Not every kung fu school has changed or watered down their systems. There are many garage or backyard schools that still teach traditional curriculums.

A lot of commercial schools are easily found (yellow pages / Internet etc). So many people go to these modern schools and learn forms. many of these new schools cater to the modern persons needs. Many modern people are not interested in fighting, sparring, shaui chiao, etc. All they want is some exercise and a little bit of self defense.

Sadly the people that want traditional training with fighting, sparring san da, san shou, shaui chiao etc etc, are under 10% of the entire MA world. We (the people who like fighting) are the minority. If you were to look at most all MMA, BJJ, Shuai Chiao, San Shou schools, first off is only 25% of these students like to fight or roll around. Only 5% will go to tournaments and of that 5%, less than 1% will go amateur or pro.

I don't care what kind of fighting school you go to, not everyone in your school likes to fight all the time. it is just a fact of our modern times.

If you take some time you can find a good traditional or fighting school to give you what you want. But don't go around saying TMA is dead cuz there are still many gems to be found out there hidden in the back yards or even in a strip mall!

ginosifu

[Mulong]

We should take into account within the pugilistic world there have been numerous trends; for example, boxing has been king in the North America for over a hundred years; however, it always have been regulated to local sweaty gyms until the rises of white collar boxing which made it a viable commercial venture, e.g., LA Boxing.

After boxing is Greco-Roman/freestyle wrestling which has been nurture within academia. However, the first Asian art to take root in the North America was judo which again flourished within the local YMCA and small dojo within the major cities which was followed sixty years later by karate which due to our service men being station in Japan and Korea. However, it was until the “Kung Fu” crazy of the 70’s that karate dojo could be found in most community. Irony, it took gongfu/wushu shifu a while to profit on the crazy. However, the kung fu crazy only last until the next trend which was the ninja crazy. However, that one came and went quickly.

Therefore, MMA is another trend as a recreational activity; however, in due time it will it take the same route like boxing, judo, karate, and gongfu and be delegate to small gyms.

Ginosifu was very true in his statement the average person going to wuguan/mouh gwun isn’t interested in fighting…

[mooyingmantis]

When I took aikido for a few months, and judo as well, they structure their classes with applications first rather than forms, and there were few complaints or people quitting. If karate/TKD/CMA followed this approach, they probably wouldn't lose too many students.

Personally I don't think I'd take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I'd die of boredom. The last one I took, baguazhang, I spent about 4.5 years just doing forms before the instructor taught me a lot of apps, and that was ENOUGH of that for FOREVER, I think.

In short, I don't think it would be a problem for other MAs to follow a more MMA or aikido/judo type approach. It doesn't have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing. It could be a drills/application type of thing.

LOL! That is because both arts are practiced with a partner. Each individual technique IS a form in aikido and jujutsu. They look at "forms" differently. Except in Shotokan, which views a form similar to Chinese arts. And each control, lock, or throw is applicable for self-defense.

4.5 years before learning apps? My students start learning self-defense in about the first 4.5 minutes of their first class AND I emphasize forms.

[mooyingmantis]

TCMA IS DEAD!!!

Ok, now that those of you who believe the above sentence have heard this, you can go away and let those of us who don't believe it get back to training and discussing things we can train.

TCMA has survived the karate craze of the 60s, the escrima craze of the 70s, the ninja craze of the 80s, the koryu craze of the 90s and the MMA fad currently going on and sputtering to a close.

We were training TCMA before them, we will continue training TCMA through the next fad that comes around.

So, run along sonny, nothing to see here. We are dead, all dead. Just festering corpses only made to smell sweeter by the scent of jow.

SHHHHHHHH, lie quietly till they go away and we can get back to business. :D

[PalmStriker]

TCMA IS DEAD!!!

Ok, now that those of you who believe the above sentence have heard this, you can go away and let those of us who don't believe it get back to training and discussing things we can train.

TCMA has survived the karate craze of the 60s, the escrima craze of the 70s, the ninja craze of the 80s, the koryu craze of the 90s and the MMA fad currently going on and sputtering to a close.

We were training TCMA before them, we will continue training TCMA through the next fad that comes around.

So, run along sonny, nothing to see here. We are dead, all dead. Just festering corpses only made to smell sweeter by the scent of jow.

SHHHHHHHH, lie quietly till they go away and we can get back to business. :D

More importantly, it survived the Qing Dynasty. :)

[Hardwork108]

Wing Chun is alive but should die. The most over rated system. The best of it is pretty much all on the big screen today.

I would humbly correct you and say that GOOD Wing Chun should thrive, but as is the case with most other kung fu styles, the majority Wing Chun out there should die, because it is just an empty shell and one dimensional manifestation of this great, rich and profound style that is being taught to over 95% percent of the practitioners.

[PalmStriker]

I guess whenever I start thinking, "I want to take a MA." I go out and look what's out there, get frustrated, come on here, and think, "Okay, this is what I want."

Like the baguazhang I took, if the instructor offered it with apps up front and I think we called it 'roushou' in aikido or judo, then that would be kindof ideal.

If there are 50 threads talking about the same thing, then maybe that's because there's a lot of people who want this. Not that the instructors will ever change, but hopefully if enough people ask / demand / walk away if they don't offer, then they will listen. If forms are a bore, stop doing them. The only "form" I do is for generating adrenalin/chi in the split-second, for developing and maintaining crucial balance, for dynamic flex exercise to keep musculature/nerve strength/limber, for coordination in stepping/motion, and to feel finely tuned (muscle memory/breath control). Otherwise, no need.

[Robinhood]

If you can find it in the phonebook, you can bet that you are not getting much!.

The good one's don't advertize or take just anybody as a student.

[mooyingmantis]

A MMA guy challenged a TCMA guy. The TCMA guy accepted. During the duel day, the MMA guy brought his 4 oz MMA gloves, the TCMA guy brought his 80 lb Guan Dao.

LOL!!! Priceless!!!

[Lokhopkuen]

Anyway, I think the counter to this would be for traditional styles to work on applications more up front and sooner in their curriculum, rather than later. For example, rather than in a lot of schools waiting to learn karate 'bunkai' (applications for forms) at black belt level or above, teaching the applications right from the start. If enough students demand applications right away, the instructors will have to do it or lose business.

Since supposedly this waiting developed to weed out students with 'good' character vs. students with 'bad' character, just don't fall for the 'good' vs. 'bad' character arguments, and explain that you want to learn self defense right away. Of course, a lot of instructors will probably just show you the door, but then that's better than wasting years studying forms without applications and self defense skill.

If instructors develop a MMA approach to teaching TMAs, then it will probably save TMAs rather than them just falling into performance art with showy forms without any fighting or applications.

I think you might want to write about this on an MMA forum friend. In order to understand traditional martial art (or any discipline requiring the time to put in the work) you'd probably have to actually put in the time and practice it. Bashing the practice, disciplines and doctrines of other styles simply shows a contributors lack of experience and manners. It is so easy to sit back and yammer on about the superiority of one style as opposed to another from the comfort of your home isnt it? So easy to cheer on the UFC from a sports bar with out putting in the work of a UFC champion?

If "MMA" is so superior (and we know with certainty that you personally represent the body of it's exponents LMAO) why do so many feel the need to talk trash over the net? It all plays out as a sign of massive insecurity.

This is such a pathetic subject regarding the supposed death of traditional Gung Fu.
I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt impatiently expecting to be a master in just a few short lessons:(

I hope one day when you look back with the wisdom of age, the belated realization of how you horribly shamed yourself here before all our members that you won't be too hard on yourself:)
None the less you are entitled to your opinions.

I was at a competition today with martial artist from many styles interacting harmoniously.

No trash talk, no redicule, just a beautiful day doing what we love.

As you were....

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA IS DEAD!!!
If TCMA is dead then why do I still get boxers, Judo guys, Sambo guys, BJJ guys, and wrestlers as my students. There must be something that our TCMA has that they want.

[lkfmdc]

If TCMA is dead then why do I still get boxers, Judo guys, Sambo guys, BJJ guys, and wrestlers as my students. There must be something that our TCMA has that they want.

you do shuai jiao

you do COMBAT shuai jiao

you're hardly the typical forms factory kung fu school :p

[Hardwork108]

you're hardly the typical forms factory kung fu school :p

True TCMAs were never "forms factory kung fu schools"!!!

Why do you use Mcdojo examples as your benchmark for the whole of the TCMAS???

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't think it's dead. I think there are those that give it a bad name and the rest take it as such. Blame it on those that float dogma and mythical influence.

[Jimbo]

Doug, as sport yes, but on a commercial/ recreational sense not really; how many commercial/recreational boxing gym are out there? The only chain I’m aware is LABoxing.

We should take into account most individuals doing MMA are doing it recreationally not as a sport; hence, a trend in a commercial sense.

I see the current craze of MMA as kind of a fad, however, it also goes far beyond that. You really can't compare it to the ninja craze of the '80s, because it's a whole different situation. IMO, MMA is a good thing. It's gotten people out of the mystical mumbo-jumbo and to the heart of what MAs are about; fighting. TMAs are also a good thing, if they are taught as MAs traditionally should be (i.e., application-oriented, hence the words "martial" arts). If anything, teaching only forms without apps or pressure testing is nontraditional.

In my one district alone, there's more than one MMA gym with very high student enrollment. How long will it last to this degree? I don't know, but so far it's lasted longer (by far) than the early/mid-'70s kung fu craze, and is probably bigger (in a commercial sense) than the TKD/Tang Soo Do craze of the late '70s (people seem to forget that particular craze that preceded the ninja fad). However, TKD/TSD are still popular and thriving today, just not as loudly as they were years ago. I can see the same thing happening with commercial MMA gyms, as sport MMA becomes more mainstream than it already is. The ones who want to fight will continue to seek out MMA gyms, as will those who just want the fitness/training aspect without fighting. Once the novelty has worn off, some gyms will close and the better ones will continue on.

So to answer the original question, no, TMAs are not mostly dead. Commercially, many are in a rough patch, but those who love and benefit from them will still do so. As already mentioned by others, some of the best TMA training is to be found outside of commercial schools, so it's meaningless to declare it dead unless you know what every person does at all times.

[Hardwork108]

As for the "bad name", personally I blame the clueless knuckleheads who have trained in "kung fu" Mcdojos and then have discovered and "seen the light" with MMA and Kickboxing training, resulting in them badmouthing the legitimate TCMAs, while falsely claiming TCMA experience, because of their time in Mcdojo land! ;)

[doug maverick]

Really???do we really need another one of these threads??

If the mods want to clean up this forum start by merging all these threads together its ridiculous.

[Pork Chop]

I been out for a while.
I'm a bit late to the game on the Tru2Form stuff, didn't know what the references were.
Thinking maybe this time around that this Tru2Form stuff is the reason behind a lot of these threads.
Can't tell if this is the last gasp of a dying art form, or the start of a very long, painful rebirth:
http://youtu.be/AnecQynoupc
The only positive thing I can say about it is that I like it better than the medium/light contact continuous stuff - nothing like seeing an a-hole purposely sneak in a cheap shot and crack a dude's sinus in a format that's not supposed to have face contact.

[Northwind]

I was at a competition today with martial artist from many styles interacting harmoniously.

No trash talk, no redicule, just a beautiful day doing what we love.



Proof! I demand proof!

Lol. But seriously...as unfortunate as this is... I don't believe you. I would love for it to be that way, but...

[Hardwork108]

If TCMA is dead then why do I still get boxers, Judo guys, Sambo guys, BJJ guys, and wrestlers as my students. There must be something that our TCMA has that they want.

True. TCMA is alive and well, however it has been suffering from over commercialism, but those who search should be able to find genuine tuition, specially in the bigger cosmopolitan cities with larger Chinese populations.

[mooyingmantis]

Really???do we really need another one of these threads??

If the mods want to clean up this forum start by merging all these threads together its ridiculous.

Did you read my first post? I started the thread because I was sick of all the "TCMA is dying" threads. If peeps think it is, they should go to another forum that talks about whatever they deem as alive.

[doug maverick]

its just unnecessary to have a thread saying tcma is not dead...there are so many threads on here that are similar its a ridiculous at this point. right now tcma is undead...its a zombie..powering through time with no real direction or purpose..:rolleyes: thats my opinion on the matter.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is all commercialized. Both MMA and TCMA. Money. Paying students or members is where it is all at. Teaching has become less and less as not everyong trained in something has the ability to teach it correctly. This is why we see some of those silly flicks on Utube that no one can really tell what system they are using.
The latest fad is indeed MMA. And it is a fad. It is made to sound like anyone training in MMA will be a champion, but the bare truth is that in most of these schools the number of students will not be great, and even if they do have a few really good fighters, most of them, or the vast majority of them will never see the inside of the Octogon or be seen fighting on TV. Utube don't count. That is for people that are wannabe's. Most of the students will not be good fighters. A good Wing Chun man could go to the average MMA gym and have a lot of fun beating down the huge numbers of wannabe's.
Now, the same exists with all the other dojo and kwoon on average. You might have a few really good fighters, but the rest are just going to be paying wannabe's. The reason is that most have the wrong reasons for training. They will not have the will or persiverence to stay with it long enough to learn, or the sifu or sensai will not have the teaching skills. Plain and simple.
About 20 years ago I decided I wanted to join a club or kwoon or whatever so that I could do some training and practice my skills in Wing Chun. I had been doing it for over 30 years at the time. I found a small school with a Wing Chun class, but when speaking with the sifu he wanted to know if I had any background in a martial art. I told him I did, and I explained my experience as best I could, and then was told flatly I could not join his group. No reason, no excuse, just flatly no. I am assuming that he did not want someone with extensive training in his group as it might pose a conflict. And it might have. So I have not tried since. I do know that in many of these schools, the head man does little teaching, but leaves that to his students of different levels of skill. This is where it falls down on him. He might have the skills to teach, but these students might not. Most of their time is spent doing physical training or Chi Sao. Bad. And the owner is out trying to invest his money rather than teaching like he should be. It is all about money.

[mooyingmantis]

Commercialization can lead to the death of anything. This is another reason I have chosen to work a regular job and teach on the side for the last 33 years. I know too many fellow martial arts who have had to sell out to make a profit in CMA.

If you own a school that you depend on for your personal finances, you must sell what people are willing to buy. It's that simple.

I don't condemn peeps who choose to go that route. They love the arts and have chosen to do what they love for their vocation. Yet, the ones that I know who have done this admit that they had to change what and how they teach to be successful.

This is nothing new. Arts always change when they are opened to the public. It happened to Tanglangquan, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, etc.. Some changes were for the better, others have fractured the art into personalities, politics and profit.

Hopefully "open door" commercialized schools still have room for a few "closed door" hard core students. If so, TCMA will ALWAYS be alive and well. Even if it is only held by a few.

[dirtyrat]

true, money corrupts a lot of things.

there are a still a couple karate clubs where i live that don't charge a lot a money. there is a token fee of $10. they believe that you can't put a price on karate training.

a local boxing gym also don't charge but they do expect you to compete in amateur fights.

makes sense in a way. if a student is willing to put in the time and energy (dedication) to train that's necessary to make a competent fighter, how could you try to make money off of them?

[mjw]

Most of these kick boxers and MMA or other sport type fighting usually still have or want a back bone in some sort of traditional martial art so I don't see traditional martial arts as dead or dying. Some people just want to have an outlet to test their skills in a combat sport type environment. It is what it is.....

[bawang]

bullying was common and accepted part of school in the 70s and 80s. kung fu manchild have innate hatred of the jock archetype. thats why they will never accept mma.

[TenTigers]

bullying was common and accepted part of school in the 70s and 80s. kung fu manchild have innate hatred of the jock archetype. thats why they will never accept mma.
in all seriousness, that is right on the money.

[Robinhood]

I would say MMA is just the jock version of MA's. Where stronger beats weaker or faster beats slower.

[YouKnowWho]

I'll be interest to know a 80 years old MMA guy's daily training program. Can anybody be able to describe that at all?

You can train for others (heavy bag training). You can also train for yourself (weight lifting). I just wonder if it still makes any sense to train for others at your old age. The moment that you train both "for others" and "for yourself", the moment that the difference between TCMA and MMA are not that much different.

[lkfmdc]

I'll be interest to know a 80 years old MMA guy's daily training program. Can anybody be able to describe that at all?

look up "Helio Gracie"

[YouKnowWho]

Does it still make sense to work on heavy bag 3 hours daily when you are 80 years old?

[lkfmdc]

Does it still make sense to work on heavy bag 3 hours daily when you are 80 years old?

who does that anyway?

[YouKnowWho]

Just wonder if an old MMA guy will become a "tree hugger" someday.

[lkfmdc]

Just wonder if an old MMA guy will become a "tree hugger" someday.

are you hugging a lot of trees?

[YouKnowWho]

are you hugging a lot of trees?

I don't think I'll do that when I'm 80. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :(

[lkfmdc]

I don't think I'll do that when I'm 80. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :(

no, you just know reality for wu xia fiction :D

[MightyB]

why is this the only thing people talk about? there like fifty threads just talking about the same thing..

Kids meds are wearing off - too much masturbation - not enough new video games for their iPhones... who knows? Could be one of those, could be all of those.

TMAs work fine. They need some dusting off every once in a while, but once you get the gist of how to work 'em, they work.

[MightyB]

The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought - now they do, and guess what's happening? They're getting better... and, they're starting to learn how to use some of those silly techniques that you can find in forms. We're still in the beginning of this h2h resurgence, that's why you find such a limited kick-boxing repertoire of methods being used. As time goes on, the techniques will start to become more varied... and where will said techniques come from? The vast encyclopedic repositories known as forms.

[bawang]

cancer has many causes, not just one

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

bullying was common and accepted part of school in the 70s and 80s. kung fu manchild have innate hatred of the jock archetype. thats why they will never accept mma.

You know, you may be on to something profound there.

[PalmStriker]

its just unnecessary to have a thread saying tcma is not dead...there are so many threads on here that are similar its a ridiculous at this point. right now tcma is undead...its a zombie..powering through time with no real direction or purpose..:rolleyes: thats my opinion on the matter.
Wait 'til after 2012 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxYOA_J4MZU&feature=related:D

[andyhaas]

If "MMA" is so superior (and we know with certainty that you personally represent the body of it's exponents LMAO) why do so many feel the need to talk trash over the net? It all plays out as a sign of massive insecurity.

This is such a pathetic subject regarding the supposed death of traditional Gung Fu.
I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt impatiently expecting to be a master in just a few short lessons:(

I hope one day when you look back with the wisdom of age, the belated realization of how you horribly shamed yourself here before all our members that you won't be too hard on yourself:)
None the less you are entitled to your opinions.

I was at a competition today with martial artist from many styles interacting harmoniously.

No trash talk, no redicule, just a beautiful day doing what we love.

As you were....

I think you don't really get what I'm getting at is ... typical CMA / tournament the applications that are covered represent maybe 5% of the CMA applications of the forms, if that. Sanshou / Sanda doesn't really cover much.

I'm not saying MMA is better or trying to trash anybody, just saying that a lot of TMAs are terribly boring because they cover so many forms without apps for years.

That's why I'm offering alternatives, not just trying to troll. IMHO if CMA were offered in a format like MMA or like Aikido, without years of forms, it would be a lot better, at least for me.

[andyhaas]

I spent a lot of time in 2007 checking out styles of CMA and studying applications, etc. I don't think TCMA is dead, but I think unless instructors change their format (more sanshou / sanda) or SOMETHING, that it will wane in popularity compared to other things.

Anybody notice that maybe tai chi is on a downtrend to, compared to 'qigong'? in the U.S.? I see a lot more signs for qigong and a lot fewer for tai chi. Maybe it is easier, for older people to stand and move a tiny bit, compared to being 200+ lbs and pulling off even a 24 movement tai chi form.

Anyway, maybe I've beaten the horse to death here. Personally, I think that a lot of instructors will try to find some way to stay in business, but I've seen instructors pull out before, so maybe not.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If TCMA were truly dead, it would not have the most popular MA board on the web and the constant proclamations that it is dead would cease.

[Pork Chop]

If TCMA were truly dead, it would not have the most popular MA board on the web and the constant proclamations that it is dead would cease.

i have a feeling that the underground & bullshido are much bigger than here.
a lot of us still come here because we made friends here over a decade ago.

[lkfmdc]

i have a feeling that the underground & bullshido are much bigger than here.
a lot of us still come here because we made friends here over a decade ago.

This place, no offense to Gene, is NOT in any way a huge board. What are there maybe 20 something posters here?

The underground is HUGE. And there are tons of other forums, thousands maybe

[HumbleWCGuy]

i have a feeling that the underground & bullshido are much bigger than here.
a lot of us still come here because we made friends here over a decade ago.

Still, if you are still here talking TCMA then it isn't dead. If it were truly dead, then you could stop worrying about it. Right? Somehow, I don't think that the fellowship is a big deal.

[Lokhopkuen]

Its the broad generalizations that bother me, where are these "statistics" originating from? The location we practice at is private, no data here. "this just in" God's Eye report 8/11 says TMA is dead details at 6-10 & eleven? LOL!

I personally can only speak for my group and vouch for the reputation of my teacher, classmates, students & close associate.s so i dont see how any person can speak with authority on the practice of others and not look like a fool.

Maybe it seems like TCMA is dead because it's not on TV! Kung Fu the legend continues got cancelled but MMA went prime time:D

I understand now.

TCMA is so clannish And secretive by nature that no one group wants to support the events promoted by others schools much less share or expose their arts in public, well except neophyte self promoters showcasing their half formed skill sets and writing books to generate passive income on subjects they know nothing about.


These are guys giving TCMA a poor reputation in the first place.

Anyway:D

[David Jamieson]

You guys don't think that chatting in a forum is martial arts do you? lol

seriously? who has a bigger forum is not any measure of anything other than that.

I find it bemusing that there seems to be this idea that running over to KFM for a circle jerk from other circle jerks has happened a few times though.

seriously, if people want to chew the fat about what they want to chew the fat about, then there is indeed a venue for that.

I think the mma vs tma crowd tends to be retarded in their thinking and also don't seem to have enough memory to access one of the numerous (read thousands) of threads that spin round and round with that question.

Kung fu's martial aspects are perfectly worth developing.

meh. :p

[TenTigers]

I know a heckuva lot of Martial Artists.
Very few of them go on online forums.

[David Jamieson]

I know a heckuva lot of Martial Artists.
Very few of them go on online forums.

I know a few too. Quite frankly, they aren't the quickest lot when it comes to using technology. lol

My mom has more net skills than most martial artists I know. :p

But still, to each their own.

[lkfmdc]

I always wonder what CTS would have been like with internet access :D

[David Jamieson]

I always wonder what CTS would have been like with internet access :D

Maybe you might have had some hanging monitors to punch at? :p

Or, maybe you'd all be blog writers with mega web skills.

one end or the other.

[bawang]

kung fu is not dead. as long as its in here.

*finger glow like ET

[md1]

I don’t really pay too much attention to other kung fu schools in our area and we don’t advertise, we are not in the phone book, hell we don’t even have a sign on the front window. You would have to walk inside the building before you would even see the club name.
We have NO problem throwing people in the water (sparring ) in the 2nd week but you also have to keep in mind not everyone who walks in to learn wants to fight, although we do expect then to know and be able to apply things. Forms come to the rate of maybe one a year with most of the emphasis on a good old school workout, then bag work and applying / moving around free style with a partner, after all we are a MARTIAL art club.

We don’t keep to many people who do come through the doors, which honestly doesn’t bother me at all. I have noticed over the years that most people don’t really want to work out all that hard anyway and it is very easy to separate the men from the boys, hence the small classes we have.
Whether it’s MMA or TCMA do people really want to put the work in that it takes to be great… or even good at what they do? Forget about ever being a professional fighter! That’s just a small handful who will EVER reach that level.

[MightyB]

Tell me then, what's so important that you live?

Truuuuve luuuuuvvvvvvv

He clearly said "to bluff", your friend is a gambler.

LIAR- LIARRRRR!!!

Shut up Witch!

I'm not a witch - I'm your wife!

He said True Love

-----

That's why TCMA will never die - True love. :p

[Lucas]

Twuuue Wuuuuv

Have to admit I lol when I read this title

[Hardwork108]

The TCMAs are alive and well for those who practice them. Others who don't practice them can speculate and guess all they want, as this makes no difference to the Tao.........................

[bawang]

kung fu is alive like those experiments in alien resurrection

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w7sJeCCA1qA/TTT_YPdbjNI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/W64M1zxxtCU/s1600/princess%2Bbrideinconceivable.jpg