Founder Lineages of TLQ

[mooyingmantis]

I think we all know lineages must be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, I thought it might be interesting to provide the lineages of the various tanglangquan families from Wang Lang down to the founder of each family.

Most of this information is taken from The Mantis Cave, which serves as a valuable resource for tanglangquan practitioners. Thanks to Fernando Blanco-Dopazo for making this available to us: http://www.themantiscave.tk/ :)

Qixing Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang

什 霄 道 人
Shen Xiao Dao Ren

李 三 剪
Li San Jian

王 榮 生
Wong Rong Sheng


Meihua Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang

宇 宙 道 人
Yu Zhou Dao Ren

大 盜
Da Dao

李 秉 霄
Li Bing Xiao

趙 起 綠
Zhao Qi Lu

梁 学 香
Liang Xue Xiang


Taiji Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang

宇 宙 道 人
Yu Zhou Dao Ren

大 盜
Da Dao

李 秉 霄
Li Bing Xiao

趙 起 綠
Zhao Qi Lu

梁 学 香
Liang Xue Xiang

孫 元 昌
Sun Yuan Chang


Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang

宇 宙 道 人
Yu Zhou Dao Ren

大 盜
Da Dao

李 秉 霄
Li Bing Xiao

趙 起 綠
Zhao Qi Lu

梁 学 香
Liang Xue Xiang

郝 莲 茹
Hao Lian Ru


Babu Tanglangquan

王 郎
Wang Lang

宇 宙 道 人
Yu Zhou Dao Ren

李 秉 霄
Li Bing Xiao

趙 起 綠
Zhao Qi Lu

梁 学 香
Liang Xue Xiang

姜 化 龍
Jiang Hualong



Note: The phrase "Dao Ren" (Man of the Dao), found after the names of Yu Zhou and Shen Xiao, is a title given to Daoist monks who show distinction in their Daoist lifestyles and duties. Shen Xiao is believed to have been the Abbot of Yun Hua temple in Cha County, Shandong.

[EarthDragon]

just a correction if you are going from Wang Lang to founder...... in the 8 step lineage you went 1 generation too far, Feng Huan Yi is second generation. ;)

[mooyingmantis]

just a correction if you are going from Wang Lang to founder...... in the 8 step lineage you went 1 generation too far, Feng Huan Yi is second generation. ;)

Mike,
Thank you! I appreciate your feedback.
I will make the correction. :)

[LaterthanNever]

Interesting indeed.

Am I to understand that this would imply that 7 star is an older style of mantis than Mei Hua?(since there are some names which do not appear in the Mei Hua lineage that do show up in the 7 star line?)

Thank you Sifu Richard for posting this and thank you to Sifu Fernando for such a great website!

[mooyingmantis]

Interesting indeed.

Am I to understand that this would imply that 7 star is an older style of mantis than Mei Hua?(since there are some names which do not appear in the Mei Hua lineage that do show up in the 7 star line?)

Thank you Sifu Richard for posting this and thank you to Sifu Fernando for such a great website!

You are quite welcome! I posted this here, because I did not want to see this valuable information lost if something happened to Fernando's wonderful site. The more this information is made available, the easier it can be passed on to future generations.

The lineages do not really show whether Qixing or Meihua came first. Many believe that the names of Daoist monks between Wang Lang and Shen Xiao/Yu Zhou have been lost.

The genealogies only show when the different lines of Mantis were named:

Wong Rong Sheng created some of the basic forms and is believed to have founded what we now know as Qixing Tanglangquan in 1890 C.E.

Liang Xue Xiang is said to have combined the Mantis teachings he received with the teachings of two other styles after his 18th birthday, which would have been about 1828 C.E. and later created the Zhai Yao forms based on the synthesis of these styles.

As the above lineages show, Taiji Tanglangquan, Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan and Babu Tanglangquan all were created by students of Liang Xue Xiang.

[Howard]

Dao ren does not always refer to 'daoist'..

[mooyingmantis]

Dao ren does not always refer to 'daoist'..

Then enlighten us. :) What is your opinion and sources for your opinion?

Here are my sources:

"Historically speaking, Daoists are members of the Daoist religious community. They are adherents who revere the Dao as sacred and who identify or are affiliated with the Chinese religious tradition which is Daoism. The ways in which Daoists have and continue to establish and maintain such association are complex. They relate to issues of identity. Some traditional patterns of affiliation include initiation, lineage, mystical experiences, ordination, and revelation. Traditional Daoist terms for adherents include daoshi 道士 (Daoist priests or monastics), daoren 道人 (lay believers), shengren 聖人 (sages), xianren 仙人 (immortals/transcendents), and zhenren 真人 (Perfected), among others."

Center for Daoist Studies

"Daoist priest profession

When referring to Daoist priests (Dao Shi) and priestesses (Dao Gu) as a profession, females are Dao Gu or Dao You, and male priests are Dao Zhang. A male Daoist priest may also be calledQian Dao, and a female Daoist priestess may also be called Kun Dao. A person new to Daoist priesthood can be called Dao Ren."

Wu Dang Tao

Though the terms dao and ren can be used separately as philosophical terms, every time I found the term daoren attached to a person's name (throughout history), the term was used in the context of pointing out that the person was a Daoist (whether monk or layman).

[Howard]

道人　

(1).有极高道德的人。《庄子·秋水》：“道人不闻，至德不得。” 王先谦 集解：“语又见《山木篇》，道作至。” 晋 葛洪 《抱朴子·行品》：“稟高亮之纯粹，抗峻标以邈俗，虚灵机以如愚，不贰过而諂黷者，贤人也。居寂寞之无为， 蹈修直而执平者，道人也。”

(2).炼丹服药、修道求仙之士。《汉书·京房传》：“法曰：‘道人始去，寒，涌水为灾。’” 颜师古 注：“道人，有道术之人也。”《太平御览》卷八一二引 汉 桓谭 《新论》：“ 淮南王 之子娉迎道人作为金银。”

(3).道教徒；道士。《三国志·魏志·董卓传》“ 傕 使公卿诣 汜 请和， 汜 皆执之，相攻击连月，死者万数” 裴松之 注引《献帝起居注》：“ 傕 性喜鬼怪左道之术，常有道人及女巫歌謳击鼓下神，祠祭六丁，符劾厌胜之具，无所不为。”《宋史·吴元扆传》 ：“乃集道人设坛，洁斋三日，百拜祈祷。” 明 汤式 《风入松·寓意》曲：“杜鹃啼过落花多，天气近清和，道人不管公家事，一樽酒抚掌而歌。”

(4).佛教徒；和尚。 汉 牟融 《理惑论》：“僕尝游 于闐 之国，数与沙门道士相见。” 南朝 宋 刘义庆 《世说新语·言语》：“ 支道林 常养数匹马，或言道人畜马不韵， 支 曰：‘贫道重其神骏。’” 南朝 宋 刘义庆 《世说新语·言语》：“ 竺法兰 在 简文 坐， 刘尹 问：‘道人何以在朱门？’” 宋 叶梦得 《避暑录话》卷下：“ 晋 宋 间佛学初行，其徒犹未有僧称，通曰道人，其姓则皆从所授学。” 清 张锡祚 《赠涧上僧》诗：“道人了观化，心止神流行。”

(5).佛寺中打杂的人。《水浒传》第四回：“那汉子道：‘我这酒挑上去，只卖与寺内火工道人、直厅轿夫、 老郎们、做生活的喫。’”《西游记》第三六回：“那道人道：‘师父莫怪，我做不得主，我是这里扫地撞鐘打勤 劳的道人。’”参阅 清 钱大昕 《十驾斋养新录·道人道士之别》。

That is in short:
virtuous individuals, Daoists and Buddhists could all be considered a Dao Ren.

[EarthDragon]

umm can you translate that for us howard?

[Howard]

umm can you translate that for us howard?

I did summarise in the last line.

[mooyingmantis]

道人　

(1).有极高道德的人。《庄子·秋水》：“道人不闻，至德不得。” 王先谦 集解：“语又见《山木篇》，道作至。” 晋 葛洪 《抱朴子·行品》：“稟高亮之纯粹，抗峻标以邈俗，虚灵机以如愚，不贰过而諂黷者，贤人也。居寂寞之无为， 蹈修直而执平者，道人也。”

(2).炼丹服药、修道求仙之士。《汉书·京房传》：“法曰：‘道人始去，寒，涌水为灾。’” 颜师古 注：“道人，有道术之人也。”《太平御览》卷八一二引 汉 桓谭 《新论》：“ 淮南王 之子娉迎道人作为金银。”

(3).道教徒；道士。《三国志·魏志·董卓传》“ 傕 使公卿诣 汜 请和， 汜 皆执之，相攻击连月，死者万数” 裴松之 注引《献帝起居注》：“ 傕 性喜鬼怪左道之术，常有道人及女巫歌謳击鼓下神，祠祭六丁，符劾厌胜之具，无所不为。”《宋史·吴元扆传》 ：“乃集道人设坛，洁斋三日，百拜祈祷。” 明 汤式 《风入松·寓意》曲：“杜鹃啼过落花多，天气近清和，道人不管公家事，一樽酒抚掌而歌。”

(4).佛教徒；和尚。 汉 牟融 《理惑论》：“僕尝游 于闐 之国，数与沙门道士相见。” 南朝 宋 刘义庆 《世说新语·言语》：“ 支道林 常养数匹马，或言道人畜马不韵， 支 曰：‘贫道重其神骏。’” 南朝 宋 刘义庆 《世说新语·言语》：“ 竺法兰 在 简文 坐， 刘尹 问：‘道人何以在朱门？’” 宋 叶梦得 《避暑录话》卷下：“ 晋 宋 间佛学初行，其徒犹未有僧称，通曰道人，其姓则皆从所授学。” 清 张锡祚 《赠涧上僧》诗：“道人了观化，心止神流行。”

(5).佛寺中打杂的人。《水浒传》第四回：“那汉子道：‘我这酒挑上去，只卖与寺内火工道人、直厅轿夫、 老郎们、做生活的喫。’”《西游记》第三六回：“那道人道：‘师父莫怪，我做不得主，我是这里扫地撞鐘打勤 劳的道人。’”参阅 清 钱大昕 《十驾斋养新录·道人道士之别》。

That is in short:
virtuous individuals, Daoists and Buddhists could all be considered a Dao Ren.


Daoren
(1). Person of high morals.
(2). Daoists seeking immortality.
(3). Taoist priests
(4). In this paragraph Daoren refers to a Daoist.
(5). Buddhist temple possibly (though not enough context cited to judge).

Howard,
Very interesting information. However, you still didn't cite your source and it is not given in the Chinese text. Yet, I will give you that the term "daoren" may possibly refer to someone other than a person of the Daoist religion.

Regardless,
The Mantis oral history of every mantis lineage describes tanglangquan as being passed down by the Taoists of Mt. Laoshan. Mt. Laoshan during the early period of tanglangquan's development housed many Daoist temples and nunneries.
Thus, I believe the context of the term daoren in this case should be interpreted as "daoists". Plus there is the fact that even the PRC historical records mention Shen Xiao as the abbot of Yun Hua temple in Cha County, Shandong during this period of time.

[Howard]

Very interesting information. However, you still didn't cite your source and it is not given in the Chinese text.

Actually the references are throughout the text including in most cases the quotation from the reference. Note in Chinese 《 》 is used to depict a reference. Also need to clarify your interpretations a little.
1. Virtuous or high morals individual (references are the Zhuangzi, Baopuzi.....)
2. Daoists whom use elixirs in seeking immortality (ref. Book of Han ....)
3. Daoist Disciples, Daoist Priest (ref. 3 Kingdoms record...)
4. Buddhist Disciple, Buddhist Monk (ref. Mouzi LiHuo Sutra, New stories from Jin dynasty ........)
5. Those carrying out duties within buddhist temples (water margin, journey to west ....)

In any case not refuting the potential of Daoists involved in the Mantis line......however just highlighted that Daoren does not necessarily infer Daoist.

Further prior to Li Bingxiao (or even Liang Xuexiang) and Wang Rongsheng, neither of the mantis lines would have as much developed as those were key in the specific lines, anything prior is folklore and difficult to prove.

[mooyingmantis]

Actually the references are throughout the text including in most cases the quotation from the reference. Note in Chinese 《 》 is used to depict a reference. Also need to clarify your interpretations a little.
1. Virtuous or high morals individual (references are the Zhuangzi, Baopuzi.....)
2. Daoists whom use elixirs in seeking immortality (ref. Book of Han ....)
3. Daoist Disciples, Daoist Priest (ref. 3 Kingdoms record...)
4. Buddhist Disciple, Buddhist Monk (ref. Mouzi LiHuo Sutra, New stories from Jin dynasty ........)
5. Those carrying out duties within buddhist temples (water margin, journey to west ....)

In any case not refuting the potential of Daoists involved in the Mantis line......however just highlighted that Daoren does not necessarily infer Daoist.

Further prior to Li Bingxiao (or even Liang Xuexiang) and Wang Rongsheng, neither of the mantis lines would have as much developed as those were key in the specific lines, anything prior is folklore and difficult to prove.

Howard,
Agreed with all the above! Thank you for the above information!

The reference to which I was referring was where the Chinese text was from. Was it a dictionary that you found that dealt with the term "daoren", an encyclopedia, a paper you wrote, etc..

Unfortunately folklore is all we will ever have in that regards.

Again, thank you for your input!

[Tainan Mantis]

Note: The phrase "Dao Ren" (Man of the Dao), found after the names of Yu Zhou and Shen Xiao, is a title given to Daoist monks who show distinction in their Daoist lifestyles and duties. Shen Xiao is believed to have been the Abbot of Yun Hua temple in Cha County, Shandong.

Interesting about Yun Hua temple. That is believed by who?

Here is an odd thing. Though Dao Ren seems to impy that Sheng Xiao is Daoist, his manuals mention Shaolin martial arts. Calling his book such titles as True Transmission of Shaolin, as well as numerous mentions of Shaolin in regard to his style.

But, even more odd yet, a reader of his books, not knowing this Praying Mantis tree could be forgiven for not describing his style as Praying Mantis. For nowhere does he call it that, in fact, he merely calls it Luohan short strikes.

He does mention Praying Mantis but, Besides the mention of Mantis is the mention of many other techniques such as Dragon, Lion, Carp and tiger.

[mooyingmantis]

Interesting about Yun Hua temple. That is believed by who?

Kevin,
That information came from The Mantis Cave:

"PRC sources mention that shifu Sheng Xiao who was the abbot of the Yun Hua Temple at the Lu community, northwest Cha County (Shan Dong Province) and he brought the art to the people."


Here is an odd thing. Though Dao Ren seems to impy that Sheng Xiao is Daoist, his manuals mention Shaolin martial arts. Calling his book such titles as True Transmission of Shaolin, as well as numerous mentions of Shaolin in regard to his style.

But, even more odd yet, a reader of his books, not knowing this Praying Mantis tree could be forgiven for not describing his style as Praying Mantis. For nowhere does he call it that, in fact, he merely calls it Luohan short strikes.

He does mention Praying Mantis but, Besides the mention of Mantis is the mention of many other techniques such as Dragon, Lion, Carp and tiger.

I agree with your assessments.

However:

1. Isn't the original title of the book simply 羅 漢 短 打 - luó hàn duǎn dá (Arhat Short Strikes)?

2. Wasn't Fan Xudong (Qixing Tanglangquan) the one who passed the material down as True Transmission of Shaolin?

3. Doesn't some copies of the book start with the Sonnet of the Eighteen Families that places things in a Mantis context?

4. Doesn't the book also contain the 8 hard, 12 fluid principles and 8 hit/8 no hit guidelines adopted by tanglangquan?

[Tainan Mantis]

Good questions.
I'll try and get to them all.
The first one


1. Isn't the original title of the book simply 羅 漢 短 打 - luó hàn duǎn dá (Arhat Short Strikes)?

How can that be determined? At the very least we have to collect all the available titles and see where that places us.
But, Luohan still implies Buddhism as does Shaolin.

I use the title True Transmission of Shaolin as a type of short hand since the book has several titles and I don't think we have placed them in a ny chronological order.

[Tainan Mantis]

2. Wasn't Fan Xudong (Qixing Tanglangquan) the one who passed the material down as True Transmission of Shaolin?


I'll let his descendants worry about that one.


3. Doesn't some copies of the book start with the Sonnet of the Eighteen Families that places things in a Mantis context?

Yes, some copies do start with Eighteen Families. But what is the significance of that relative to Mantis?

On reading Eighteen Families it indicates that Mantis Boxing defeats all other styles. Yet, the manuscript includes the other styles. It doesn't indicate that the style in the manual is Mantis, just that Mantis is a part 1/18th to be semi technical.

[Tainan Mantis]

4. Doesn't the book also contain the 8 hard, 12 fluid principles and 8 hit/8 no hit guidelines adopted by tanglangquan?

Trying to match 8 hard-12 soft etc... into mantis we do today is like trying to grow an apple tree from an orange seed. If 8 Hard 12 soft come from stick, where does it become Mantis?

Compilation of the Righteous Hall (1567) is where we first see 8-12


Straight through the center 8 hard 12 soft.
Shave when high roll when low divide left and right.
For striking and killing connect high, low, left and right.
The moving hands follow each other and work together.

General Yu and the Escaping Pirates (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2010/general%20Yu.htm)

[mooyingmantis]

Yes, some copies do start with Eighteen Families. But what is the significance of that relative to Mantis?

On reading Eighteen Families it indicates that Mantis Boxing defeats all other styles. Yet, the manuscript includes the other styles. It doesn't indicate that the style in the manual is Mantis, just that Mantis is a part 1/18th to be semi technical.

The significance is that:

1. First, mantis is mentioned at all.
2. The sonnet of the eighteen families gives preeminence to mantis.

True that mantis is not mentioned as the style in the manual. I never said that it did. You brought Duan Da into the conversation. :)

I do agree with you though, if Sheng Xiao was a real person, his history/background is quite enigmatic.

[Howard]

18 styles (techniques) poem is over used amongst mantis ...

Luohan Duan Da likely just some bits from Bafanmen.

[B.Tunks]

18 styles (techniques) poem is over used amongst mantis ...


Yep, and not even exclusive to Tanglang.

[mooyingmantis]

Yep, and not even exclusive to Tanglang.

Do you know which other styles uses the Sonnet? Have other styles passed down the Duan Da or Shaolin Authentics within their lineage?

[B.Tunks]

Do you know which other styles uses the Sonnet? Have other styles passed down the Duan Da or Shaolin Authentics within their lineage?

The sonnet is from the Shaolin tradition.

Elements of these documents are common to non-TLQ sources.

BT

[mooyingmantis]

The sonnet is from the Shaolin tradition.

Elements of these documents are common to non-TLQ sources.

BT

Which could really be said about nearly anything in martial arts.

Any specific examples of the sonnet or duan da/shaolin authentic used in other specific styles?

[B.Tunks]

Which could really be said about nearly anything in martial arts.

Any specific examples of the sonnet or duan da/shaolin authentic used in other specific styles?

Yes it could but these are specific things. Luohan Duanda Xinggong itself most likely predates and was adopted by TLQ.

Re examples, I don't possess the primary source documents from these styles so I won't cite them.

BT

[mooyingmantis]

Yes it could but these are specific things. Luohan Duanda Xinggong itself most likely predates and was adopted by TLQ.
BT

Yes, that was also my thought!