Rooftop Matches

[TenTigers]

I think we've all seen the vids on the rooftop matches.
Does anyone know the origin of these vids?
Who is in them?
Yeah, they look like true2form crap.
But, is this all there was to the fights?
Do we judge all rooftop fights, Challenge matches, etc and therefore, TCMA by one poor clip?
Yet, there are idiots out there who do exactly that.
For all we know, these were complete no-talent tools..who had a camera.

[Vajramusti]

I think we've all seen the vids on the rooftop matches.
Does anyone know the origin of these vids?
Who is in them?
Yeah, they look like true2form crap.
But, is this all there was to the fights?
Do we judge all rooftop fights, Challenge matches, etc and therefore, TCMA by one poor clip?
Yet, there are idiots out there who do exactly that.
For all we know, these were complete no-talent tools..who had a camera.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wang Kiu who was briefly a student of Ip man filmed some of them.Atleast one had WSL as a referee.Most were imo young kids trying things out.Not much to learn from them.

Many real challenge matches were never filmed- but are part of oral histories.

joy chaudhuri

[lkfmdc]

For obvious reasons, there is not a lot of footage of fights from the "old days"

HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that what we have can not be instructive

The roof top matches were by all accounts young guys, student level, in what amounted to an informal dick waving contest.

On the other hand, we have the infamous "white crane vs wu tai chi" debacle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0

These were guys who were supposed to already be high level, one already a "master". In fact, Ng Gung Yi was supposed to have a "rep" from many challenge matches

Leading up to this, people thought someone was going to be killed, it was two "deadly" people with high level skills and it was going to get out of hand

What do we learn from it?

1) In 1953 there were already a lot of schools who were NOT sparring but thought they were deadly

2) There is no reason to doubt that Ng Kung Yi had in fact closed door matches before this, leading us to seriously question what those must have looked like

3) As I have stated before, Chan Hak Fu realized this was not a good performance and changed the way his students trained, instituting sparring with boxing gloves and in the 70's he had some decent fighters

MORE ON THIS IN A BIT

[lkfmdc]

Now history is context and context is everything

The "white crane vs wu tai chi" debacle was in 1953 and the roof top matches early 60's (?)

But let's remember that 1937 to 1949 wasn't exactly a prime time for the development of kung fu

I don't believe there are movies of the 1920's and 1930's lei tai events, but my educated guess would be if you saw them they would look better than the 1953 fight. Maybe not astounding, but certainly better

But you might also notice that the winners of these things all did ALIVE training. Shuai Jiao certainly trains alive and many of the participants had also studied western boxing

John Wang shares a story regarding these that is on point; the winner of one of these was criticized for not using "real kung fu technique" (sound familiar) by a "master" of an "internal art" (funny how consistent some of this stuff is!)

The winner's brother said to the critic, why don't we fight? And the critic declined

From Kennedy's books and the translation of "Chin Na Fa" we also see that there was a long tradition where those who embraced theory but didn't do actual fighting criticized the methods of those who fought. And, conversely, a strong tradition among the actual fighters that there was too much theory without practice

In some respects, examples from Kennedy's manuals read almost like the forum postings of today

[bawang]

in people hypnotized by lies in kung fu, they often show a naive childlike quality

i find there is a similarity in mindset with star trek and star wars fanatics

[TenTigers]

in people hypnotized by lies in kung fu, they often show a naive childlike quality
yep, but this IS the KF Forum...:rolleyes:

[Frost]

I think we've all seen the vids on the rooftop matches.
Does anyone know the origin of these vids?
Who is in them?
Yeah, they look like true2form crap.
But, is this all there was to the fights?
Do we judge all rooftop fights, Challenge matches, etc and therefore, TCMA by one poor clip?
Yet, there are idiots out there who do exactly that.
For all we know, these were complete no-talent tools..who had a camera.

well what should we judge the era by if not the footage we can see with our own eyes...hearsay....?

the point isnt that those clips were bad, but that someone thought the fights were good enough and high profile enough to record...were only the poor matches worthy of filming?

[bawang]

you guys really need to understand the cantonese culture.

guangdong has a deeply ingrained culture of corruption and darkness, right down into everyday life.

[TenTigers]

the point isnt that those clips were bad, but that someone thought the fights were good enough and high profile enough to record...were only the poor matches worthy of filming?

dunno...some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.

[lkfmdc]

well what should we judge the era by if not the footage we can see with our own eyes...hearsay....?

the point isnt that those clips were bad, but that someone thought the fights were good enough and high profile enough to record...were only the poor matches worthy of filming?

read or re-read my two posts, and if we get a good discussion going I'll continue my point

[lkfmdc]

you guys really need to understand the cantonese culture.

guangdong has a deeply ingrained culture of corruption and darkness, right down into everyday life.
it isn't just cantonese culture, there is BS and corruption in ALL Chinese martial art, there is a "fraud culture" in the north as well

[bawang]

it isn't just cantonese culture, there is BS and corruption in ALL Chinese martial art, there is a "fraud culture" in the north as well

it is nowhere near as bad as in guangdong

[lkfmdc]

it is nowhere near as bad as in guangdong

you're trolling again

the "spirit boxing" thing was a northern invention, not actually teach any kung fu and convince poor farmer kids spirits will make them warriors

tons of cons and scams up north

[bawang]

in the past 200 years only 2 martial exam winners came from guangdong. almost all 120 winners were from north. there was never a strong martial tradition in the south.




the "spirit boxing" thing was a northern invention, not actually teach any kung fu and convince poor farmer kids spirits will make them warriors



yihe rebels practiced meihua quan and hong quan. the"spirit boxing" was westerners trying to descrbie hard qigong.

[lkfmdc]

in the past 200 years only 2 martial exam winners came from guangdong. almost all 120 winners were from north. there was never a strong martial tradition in the south.

or, the cantonese didn't give a crap about what happens north of mid-fukien

which is STILL the case

[lkfmdc]

yihe rebels practiced meihua quan and hong quan. the"spirit boxing" was westerners trying to descrbie hard qigong.

don't try to troll someone with a master's in Chinese history from the Elliott School :rolleyes:

"spirit boxing" was NOT hard chi kung and there was a huge component of it in the boxer movement. Extremely well documented in precise detail thanks to Escherwick

[bawang]

superstition and spirit posession was a common part of old chinese martial arts. its different from actually scamming people and not teaching them how to properly fight.

if you are knowledgable in chinese history then you should know all upper leaders of yihetuan were students of meihua and hongquan.

[lkfmdc]

superstition and spirit posession was a common part of old chinese martial arts. its different from actually scamming people and not teaching them how to properly fight.



but that is EXACTLY what they did

[bawang]

boxer rebels killed thousands and thousands of people. i dont see how they were scammed.



first you trivilialize the imperial martial exam, then you ridicule the last largest martial rebellion. you are trying to justify how guangdong kung fu never did anythign anywhere.

[lkfmdc]

seriously, now you are just trolling and totally derailing a good thread

[bawang]

i am being serious. you just have problem taking criticism about cantonese kung fu.

one moment you make kung fu seem useless, you dont even train or teach forms. the next moment you get sensitive about the most shady region in china. i reallly dont get it.


i am not derailing this thread. this thread is about the rooftop matches in hongkong. i am trying to explain the mentality behind the people that filmed those slap fights. that it lies deep in the cantonese psyche.

[Snipsky]

Do you guys really think people buy all of this?

[taai gihk yahn]

dunno...some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.

clearly it is not...


...STEP!

[YouKnowWho]

dunno...some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.

You sure can fool your opponent big time. When you post a Taiji "white crane flip wings", the moment that your opponent started to laught at you, the moment that you move in and knock your opponent down with one punch. It's a good strategy even Bruce Lee used it in "Return The Dragon" movie (at 1.14).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OTo3nqKqfY

[Frost]

dunno...some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.

ok so where are the good fight clips that show true TCMA in action?

[Frost]

read or re-read my two posts, and if we get a good discussion going I'll continue my point

please continue it,

[bawang]

http://www.chinatravel20.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/guangdong-map.png

this is guangdong, the ass end middle of nowhere in china. they have a monopoly on american kung fu. it is not representative of chinese martial arts.

those hongkong rooftop guys means nothing, their action changs nothing.

[Mulong]

It is hard to define what happened to CMA fighting prowess in first decades of 20’s century; it is it possible that Jingwu’s view point of wushu as a recreational activity affected the pugilistic scope of wushu?

It seems that Goushu tried to rectified this problem by focusing on reaction skills, e.g., boxing, shuaijiao, tuishou, etc.; however, it seemed it was a bit to late to undo the damage.

[bawang]

It is hard to define what happened to CMA fighting prowess in first decades of 20’s century; it is it possible that Jingwu’s view point of wushu as a recreational activity affected the pugilistic scope of wushu?

It seems that Goushu tried to rectified this problem by focusing on recreational skills, e.g., boxing, shuaijiao, tuishou, etc.; however, it seemed it was a bit to late to undo the damage.

the biggest damage were the movies. they plant powerful false images inside peoples minds

[Mulong]

Indeed bawang, but that came later down the road...

[mooyingmantis]

Now history is context and context is everything

The "white crane vs wu tai chi" debacle was in 1953 and the roof top matches early 60's (?)

But let's remember that 1937 to 1949 wasn't exactly a prime time for the development of kung fu

I don't believe there are movies of the 1920's and 1930's lei tai events, but my educated guess would be if you saw them they would look better than the 1953 fight. Maybe not astounding, but certainly better

But you might also notice that the winners of these things all did ALIVE training. Shuai Jiao certainly trains alive and many of the participants had also studied western boxing

John Wang shares a story regarding these that is on point; the winner of one of these was criticized for not using "real kung fu technique" (sound familiar) by a "master" of an "internal art" (funny how consistent some of this stuff is!)

The winner's brother said to the critic, why don't we fight? And the critic declined

From Kennedy's books and the translation of "Chin Na Fa" we also see that there was a long tradition where those who embraced theory but didn't do actual fighting criticized the methods of those who fought. And, conversely, a strong tradition among the actual fighters that there was too much theory without practice

In some respects, examples from Kennedy's manuals read almost like the forum postings of today

Great points Dave!

Wasn't the White Crane-vs-Taiji suppose to be a demo match? I wonder if they really understood what they were getting into and if they really trained for it?

[mooyingmantis]

http://www.chinatravel20.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/guangdong-map.png

this is guangdong, the ass end middle of nowhere in china. they have a monopoly on american kung fu. it is not representative of chinese martial arts.

those hongkong rooftop guys means nothing, their action changs nothing.

What styles predominantly originate from Guangdong?

[lkfmdc]

Wasn't the White Crane-vs-Taiji suppose to be a demo match? I wonder if they really understood what they were getting into and if they really trained for it?

There was very real BAD BLOOD there.

The Wu (Ng) family have very low opinion of "external" and of southern styles and Ng Kung Yi had apparently challenged and beaten some other teachers and put up something in the newspapers

The match was originally supposed to be another of those closed door things (and we would have never have seen it of course) but over time it first became public, then some one suggested it might as well benefit charity (in a sort of blatant attempt to white wash all the issues)

They both walked into that ring fully expecting to put on an astounding performance and beat without question their opponents. Both were not happy with the results

There were attempts to re-paint this over the years, I had heard how great it was until we got a VHS copy back in the 90's. Now with the internet you can't hide the reality of what it was

[mooyingmantis]

There was very real BAD BLOOD there.

The Wu (Ng) family have very low opinion of "external" and of southern styles and Ng Kung Yi had apparently challenged and beaten some other teachers and put up something in the newspapers

The match was originally supposed to be another of those closed door things (and we would have never have seen it of course) but over time it first became public, then some one suggested it might as well benefit charity (in a sort of blatant attempt to white wash all the issues)

They both walked into that ring fully expecting to put on an astounding performance and beat without question their opponents. Both were not happy with the results

There were attempts to re-paint this over the years, I had heard how great it was until we got a VHS copy back in the 90's. Now with the internet you can't hide the reality of what it was

Dave,
Thank you for the background information! It is very interesting and adds a different dimension to the video.

[MightyB]

The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought - now they do, and guess what's happening? They're getting better... and, they're starting to learn how to use some of those silly techniques that you can find in forms. We're still in the beginning of this h2h resurgence, that's why you find such a limited kick-boxing repertoire of methods being used. As time goes on, the techniques will start to become more varied... and where will said techniques come from? The vast encyclopedic repositories known as forms.

[mooyingmantis]

The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought - now they do, and guess what's happening? They're getting better... and, they're starting to learn how to use some of those silly techniques that you can find in forms. We're still in the beginning of this h2h resurgence, that's why you find such a limited kick-boxing repertoire of methods being used. As time goes on, the techniques will start to become more varied... and where will said techniques come from? The vast encyclopedic repositories known as forms.

Good point! Like they used to say about Ragu spaghetti sauce, "It's in there!" Perhaps we just didn't emphasize it enough. :o

I know I was guilty of it in the past. Due to my background in jujutsu and aikido, I was never very interested in the throwing techniques found in the Praying Mantis forms. Discussions on this forum caused me to look deeper into them and see their richness. :)

[lkfmdc]

The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought -



MODIFY THAT

The need for effective hand to hand and close quarters fighting was very real well into the 1920's in China.

There were obviously guys who were using their kung fu in "the street" (well, in 1917 China, was it really a street LOL)

Beginning in the 20th Century, you had cross training in boxing and Japanese Judo going on. You had alive training and sparring being introduced

WHAT WE SEE IS THAT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO WERE FIGHTING, FROM THE 20's and 30'S LEI TAI FIGHTS, THE BETTER FIGHTERS WERE THOSE WHO TRAINED ALIVE

1937 to 1949 was a disaster for CMA. And in HK in the 1950's we see schools where there was no sparring, and in some cases arts being now passed on by those who had never actually fought.

Here we see the beginning of the idea that you can fight just by learning the system

[omarthefish]

What styles predominantly originate from Guangdong?

Most of everything people think of as "southern" comes from either Guangdong or neighboring Fujian. Choi Li Fut, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Fut Gar, Chow Gar, Anythingelse-Gar. The Hakka stuff will likely be found more in Fujian and the straight "Han" stuff more in Guangdong. Styles like White Crane, Southern Mantis or anything else where they stand around hunched over like old men...er..I mean like Kyokshin guys doing Sanchin. :p

[Hardwork108]

MODIFY THAT

The need for effective hand to hand and close quarters fighting was very real well into the 1920's in China.

There were obviously guys who were using their kung fu in "the street" (well, in 1917 China, was it really a street LOL)

Beginning in the 20th Century, you had cross training in boxing and Japanese Judo going on. You had alive training and sparring being introduced

WHAT WE SEE IS THAT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO WERE FIGHTING, FROM THE 20's and 30'S LEI TAI FIGHTS, THE BETTER FIGHTERS WERE THOSE WHO TRAINED ALIVE

1937 to 1949 was a disaster for CMA. And in HK in the 1950's we see schools where there was no sparring, and in some cases arts being now passed on by those who had never actually fought.

Here we see the beginning of the idea that you can fight just by learning the system

Aren't you forgetting that China was and IS a huge country, and we can't forget countries such as Taiwan, Singapure, Malaysia, etc. with large Chinese populations that contain many genuine kung fu sifus/masters who continue on many of the Mainland Chinese lineages.

Perhaps you are generalizing a "little"?

[MightyB]

MODIFY THAT

The need for effective hand to hand and close quarters fighting was very real well into the 1920's in China.

There were obviously guys who were using their kung fu in "the street" (well, in 1917 China, was it really a street LOL)



Well - it was really da street when you think about how they were killing themselves and the Japanese in close quarters sword fighting. It was all out war and not enough guns and bullets! Can't get more "street" than that.

[lkfmdc]

Well - it was really da street when you think about how they were killing themselves and the Japanese in close quarters sword fighting. It was all out war and not enough guns and bullets! Can't get more "street" than that.

With a good deal of info on this subject, I can say without question that one of the direct results of fighting with the Japanese was that many of the Chinese with real skills were killed

They then killed EACH OTHER during the civil war

So, like I said, not a great period for the growth of kung fu

And in the post 49 world, many guys with skills were either (1) affiliated with KMT and on Taiwan (you will note that there was an active full contact movement in Taiwan) or (2) if they were CCP affiliated stuck on the mainland with no outside contact and no public full contact venues for close to 30 years!

[MightyB]

With a good deal of info on this subject, I can say without question that one of the direct results of fighting with the Japanese was that many of the Chinese with real skills were killed

They then killed EACH OTHER during the civil war

So, like I said, not a great period for the growth of kung fu

And in the post 49 world, many guys with skills were either (1) affiliated with KMT and on Taiwan (you will note that there was an active full contact movement in Taiwan) or (2) if they were CCP affiliated stuck on the mainland with no outside contact and no public full contact venues for close to 30 years!

There should be a book on this subject - I'd love to read the stories of real TCMA in life and death action in a modern context.

[lkfmdc]

There should be a book on this subject - I'd love to read the stories of real TCMA in life and death action in a modern context.

Stories about the war period, like stories about the cultural revolution, are things you really don't want to hear, trust me on this

[SimonM]

Stories about the war period, like stories about the cultural revolution, are things you really don't want to hear, trust me on this

Go to china, head off into the back country and ask some of the old codgers out there. They'll often be happy to have fresh ears to tell their stories to.

But David's right, the stories are not for the weak of heart or stomach.

I've seen a building in Shanxi that was decorated with a mural painted shortly after the war. It depicts an ambush on a Japanese garrison. They used a lot of red paint on that mural - let's just put it that way.

[lkfmdc]

Go to china, head off into the back country and ask some of the old codgers out there. They'll often be happy to have fresh ears to tell their stories to.



Oh, people will easily volunteer those stories in great detail, it's just that you often wonder "why would you tell me this?" :eek:

[SimonM]

Partly it's because a lot of the old-timers perceive their grandchildren as not really caring much about it. (Erroneously or not, that is a perception I saw a lot of.)

They're afraid their stories will die with them, and when you've been through things like that, you don't want people to forget.

[MightyB]

Partly it's because a lot of the old-timers perceive their grandchildren as not really caring much about it. (Erroneously or not, that is a perception I saw a lot of.)

They're afraid their stories will die with them, and when you've been through things like that, you don't want people to forget.

In my professional life, I make TV Shows and Documentaries - I think this would make for an awesome doc if I could get funding. It'd be tough because of the language barrier but there's always translators to help.

[lkfmdc]

In my professional life, I make TV Shows and Documentaries - I think this would make for an awesome doc if I could get funding. It'd be tough because of the language barrier but there's always translators to help.

There have been TONS of oral history projects on the war period and cultural revolution, they are just stuffy academic stuff that few people want to listen to. I spent hours down in the GWU library's basement listening and reading transcripts.

[MightyB]

There have been TONS of oral history projects on the war period and cultural revolution, they are just stuffy academic stuff that few people want to listen to. I spent hours down in the GWU library's basement listening and reading transcripts.

We may have to start a PM on this - how receptive do you feel the Chinese professional community in your area is to funding something like this?

[lkfmdc]

We may have to start a PM on this - how receptive do you feel the Chinese professional community in your area is to funding something like this?

I've been out of the academic world for over two decades :eek:

[bawang]

you should teach a course about kung fu in university, maybe an elective part of asian studies program

[lkfmdc]

Anyway, back onto the actual topic

Taiwan was sort of mess in the 50's. Re organizing, deciding whether to invade the mainland, worried the mainland was going to invade, the tensions between mainlanders and Taiwanese, etc etc

But by the 60's you have full contact competition again. According to William CC Chen, only once a year, which really hurt the development of skills, but still they had a yearly event to look forward to

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a fascinating thread.
I really don't have anything to add since I am not that much a student of TCMA history ( It may be a tad interesting but means nothing for MA purposes) but from what I have seen in my years of exposure is this:
Southern systems like to solid basics, hard conditioning and their off-shots do so too, lets not forget that Kyokushin's core is Goju, which is heavily influences by the southern systems.
When I think north I think of "flowery fists and kicks", showy yes, but not very powerful, but then I think southern I think solid and power.
That aside and more on topic, it doesn't surprise me that you see such a "inferiour" display in those "rooftop matches" and that "White crance VS taiji" match, why?
Because not only was there a lack of priortization of hard, freestyle sparring, BUT there was probably far TOO LITTLE "cross style" fighting.

[lkfmdc]

I really don't have anything to add since I am not that much a student of TCMA history ( It may be a tad interesting but means nothing for MA purposes)



I disagree

History tells you where you came from and how you got here.

Want to know why CMA has problems, history tells us!

CMA was late AND slow to embrace alive training and sparring. Significant portions of the community opposed it

A good amount of its best people were killed in almost 12 years of war

Due to variety of factors, people who may not have ever had any practical experience ended up as "teachers"

ie the contents of this thread

[Snipsky]

CMA was late AND slow to embrace alive training and sparring. Significant portions of the community opposed it

How many times in one thread does the above need to be stated? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I disagree

History tells you where you came from and how you got here.

Want to know why CMA has problems, history tells us!

CMA was late AND slow to embrace alive training and sparring. Significant portions of the community opposed it

A good amount of its best people were killed in almost 12 years of war

Due to variety of factors, people who may not have ever had any practical experience ended up as "teachers"

ie the contents of this thread

A fair point.
Let me say it a different way:
Anecdotal "fight histories" never meant anything for me because that are irrelevant to current state of MA, or at least SHOULD be.
What some master did 100 years ago means nothing to the practioners TODAY, to them personally OR the system.
AT best it MAY be evidence of THAT masters fighting skill and nothing more.

An example I always use is that Mas Oyama may or may not have been the "uber-deadly" but that means NOTHING to how well any other kyokushin practioner fights.

But you are correct that the history of a SYSTEM can demonstrate why a system is effective or not., but only to a degree.

Jing Wu, from what I remember reading, was always pushing the envelop and adopting modern methods of training and conditioning and sparring.
I wonder, is that STILL the case NOW?

[lkfmdc]

How many times in one thread does the above need to be stated? :confused:

I guess until people "get it"

[lkfmdc]

You are only as good as what you do TODAY

Taiwan was a pretty good place to get some full contact action in, but people tell me things are changing, for example the Tang Shou Tao organization is down to ONE SCHOOL now :eek:

Even looking at the recent footage, they sure are going at each other HARD but it is still incredibly amateurish, it hasn't gone anywhere

That was my criticism of Kuoshu Lei Tai, in 25 years it hasn't done anywhere

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't get it, really.
MA is about fighting and fighting is full contact.
Maybe not all the time, but at least at certain levels.
How popular is full contact sport in China and Taiwan?
I mean boxing, MT, K-1 and so forth?

[Ray Pina]

http://www.chinatravel20.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/guangdong-map.png

this is guangdong, the ass end middle of nowhere in china. they have a monopoly on american kung fu. it is not representative of chinese martial arts.


I agree with you totally.

History tells us Ba Gua and Taiji were used to protect the royalty. That's what I think of when I think of "northern."

When I think of "southern" I think of coolies and railroad workers and Hung Gar and Wing chun and educated white people following the guidance of peasant Chinese.

[lkfmdc]

I don't get it, really.
MA is about fighting and fighting is full contact.
Maybe not all the time, but at least at certain levels.
How popular is full contact sport in China and Taiwan?
I mean boxing, MT, K-1 and so forth?

John Wang might have a better answer, or someone on the board with better ties to Taiwan

I know from the days of the old Kuoshu Lei Tai vs IWUF Sanshou rivalry that traditional Lei Tai in Taiwan hit a lot of bumps around 2000. I believe some major events were even cancelled and some boycotted by large factions

I think combat sports have become popular, just as they are in mainland, but I am under the impression that they are SEPARATE from the TCMA community now

To be clear, in the past (1960 through maybe 1990's) you had the TCMA people, the "internal people" both practicing their art AND doing tons of full contact

That was what Tang Shou Tao was

I hear that we are starting to see the same gap there as we see in the US, people doing "fighting" and people doing "traditonal"

[sanjuro_ronin]

John Wang might have a better answer, or someone on the board with better ties to Taiwan

I know from the days of the old Kuoshu Lei Tai vs IWUF Sanshou rivalry that traditional Lei Tai in Taiwan hit a lot of bumps around 2000. I believe some major events were even cancelled and some boycotted by large factions

I think combat sports have become popular, just as they are in mainland, but I am under the impression that they are SEPARATE from the TCMA community now

To be clear, in the past (1960 through maybe 1990's) you had the TCMA people, the "internal people" both practicing their art AND doing tons of full contact

That was what Tang Shou Tao was

I hear that we are starting to see the same gap there as we see in the US, people doing "fighting" and people doing "traditonal"

See, if people LIKE to watch and do Full Contact, and boxing gyms and MT gyms and MMA/san shou gyms being created is a good indication of that, then the issue ISN'T the population, its the TCMA.

[TenTigers]

I agree with you totally.

History tells us Ba Gua and Taiji were used to protect the royalty. That's what I think of when I think of "northern."

When I think of "southern" I think of coolies and railroad workers and Hung Gar and Wing chun and educated white people following the guidance of peasant Chinese.

Everybody says their art was used by Royal Guards; Tai Chi, Ba Gua, BaJi, Lama, Southern Mantis, Northern Mantis, etc...
There are two schools of thought: Northerners, due to the royalty, aristocracy, scholars, etc will say that Northern Styles are more developed.
Southerners will claim that they refined what the Northerners did to develop their arts.
Having studied both, I see elements of both in Southern systems, so there was definitely an exchange of sorts in the development of many Southern systems.

[lkfmdc]

People want to see their lineage as warriors, scholars, generals and heros

Not farmers, thieves, brigands and gangsters

But all too often.....

[taai gihk yahn]

Everybody says their art was used by Royal Guards; Tai Chi, Ba Gua, BaJi, Lama, Southern Mantis, Northern Mantis, etc...
There are two schools of thought: Northerners, due to the royalty, aristocracy, scholars, etc will say that Northern Styles are more developed.
Southerners will claim that they refined what the Northerners did to develop their arts.
Having studied both, I see elements of both in Southern systems, so there was definitely an exchange of sorts in the development of many Southern systems.

yes, EVERYONE'S art was used by some royal palace guards; just like over here, everyone has taught their art to LEO's in some official capacity; I think that it's to be regarded w raised eyebrows - especially since, back then, u had lots of "royalty" floating around - meaning that some lesser noble in a small house could employ someone to teach his household guard (all 3 of them), and that was instant caché for the sifu; the other piece is that by consorting w the literati class, these MA types had access to people who would write things down for them, heck, even compose who poems, technique names, "spin" histories in order to give their style a classical patina - and probably a lot of the stuff that comes down to us now is the result of literary reverse engeneering over the centuries; I mean, when u look at the so-called "internal" methodologies taught by systems that were originally peasant / village-based - where do u think they got all of the theory? it was probably superimposed onto the stuff that they did, which then had to change to conform to the theory when it didn't quite fit, and so on;

of course this is a gross over-generalization, but just pointing out the possibilities here

at this point, i think any story regarding the history of most styles needs to be taken with a large grain of salt...

[MightyB]

People want to see their lineage as warriors, scholars, generals and heros

Not farmers, thieves, brigands and gangsters

But all too often.....

Not me - I think it's cooler to think that my martial background came from a thug life. Heck, my own family's immigration to America comes from Hessians who stayed behind after the revolutionary war. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

People want to see their lineage as warriors, scholars, generals and heros

Not farmers, thieves, brigands and gangsters

But all too often.....

I still get noobes trying to tell me about how much of samurai Oyama was, LOL !
If I may:
From my simple background:
ITF TKD, general Choi was a communist who, along with his buddies, took shotokan and some "korean MA" and created TKD for political motives as much as for anything else.
Kyokushin: Oyama was a korean Japanese sympthizerwith gangster connections who killed at least one person under "doubious circumstances".
( Kyokushin is full of "interesting people, as are ALL MA that are done for FC, it attracts those types).
Kali- sticks and knives in the philipines? HELLO !!
Boxing: enough said.
Judo: The history of Judo is full of colorful characters, lots of gangster connections ( like most TJMA)Kano was NOT a choir boy.
Hung Kuen: lets not even go there.
Etc...

[Ray Pina]

The thing I miss most about Kung Fu is that feeling of superiority... taking the train home after class, realizing how few understood their internal workings. Watching low level professional fighters in sold out events just kick boxing and "rolling around" on the floor. Thinking everyone else's lineage was garbage and full on non warriors.

Facing people in competition is humbling and awakening :mad:

[Golden Arms]

The thing I miss most about Kung Fu is that feeling of superiority... taking the train home after class, realizing how few understood their internal workings. Watching low level professional fighters in sold out events just kick boxing and "rolling around" on the floor. Thinking everyone else's lineage was garbage and full on non warriors.

Facing people in competition is humbling and awakening :mad:

I agree that competition and trained opponents are a big wake up call for most of us. Your post seems to say more about how you viewed your training at that point than it does about what a person can and cannot do with Kung Fu. I think its great that you have had some revelations but just a reminder that some of us were not trained to be in the dark.

If I recall correctly, I advised you that you needed a higher level of conditioning than what you were using when you began looking into fighting instead of just throwdowns years back and even offered to help you with a program since you had no corner. I have several former peers as well as students I trained, only in kung fu, that have won their divisions at the Can Am's, Tiger Balm, the Texas (Tai Chi Legacy) tournaments, Baltimore and San Francisco Lei Tai events to name a few. I have also won in these events and can say first hand that a person trained only in Hung Gar can do so, it just takes correct training.

I know for a fact that others have done the same, this topic just happens to be one of the oldest, dead horses out there and many that train and teach (whether for real or not) have never even heard of this forum more than in passing if at all, let alone posted on it.

[Jimbo]

I don't get it, really.
MA is about fighting and fighting is full contact.
Maybe not all the time, but at least at certain levels.
How popular is full contact sport in China and Taiwan?
I mean boxing, MT, K-1 and so forth?

When I was living in Taiwan ('85 to '93), there were full-contact tournaments of the lei tai variety (except not always on a raised 'platform') on the international level (once every year or so) and smaller local ones, too. I remember one particular small but brutal tourney held outside of Taipei in such a dumpy facility that there was dirt everywhere and some dog poo near the ends of the mats.

I don't remember anyone ever referring to the fighting as 'full-contact,' which I take to mean it was a given that such contests are (were) meant to be all-out. I never saw any fighting in CMA tourneys in Taiwan that was light-contact.

Since I left so long ago, I have no idea how popular boxing, MT, K-1, etc., are in Taiwan, though I have heard that MMA is catching on. I will say that even when I was there, TKD was the No. 1 MA in popularity and probably still is.

[Faruq]

There was very real BAD BLOOD there.

The Wu (Ng) family have very low opinion of "external" and of southern styles and Ng Kung Yi had apparently challenged and beaten some other teachers and put up something in the newspapers

The match was originally supposed to be another of those closed door things (and we would have never have seen it of course) but over time it first became public, then some one suggested it might as well benefit charity (in a sort of blatant attempt to white wash all the issues)

They both walked into that ring fully expecting to put on an astounding performance and beat without question their opponents. Both were not happy with the results

There were attempts to re-paint this over the years, I had heard how great it was until we got a VHS copy back in the 90's. Now with the internet you can't hide the reality of what it was


When I was living in Taiwan ('85 to '93), there were full-contact tournaments of the lei tai variety (except not always on a raised 'platform') on the international level (once every year or so) and smaller local ones, too. I remember one particular small but brutal tourney held outside of Taipei in such a dumpy facility that there was dirt everywhere and some dog poo near the ends of the mats.

I don't remember anyone ever referring to the fighting as 'full-contact,' which I take to mean it was a given that such contests are (were) meant to be all-out. I never saw any fighting in CMA tourneys in Taiwan that was light-contact.

Since I left so long ago, I have no idea how popular boxing, MT, K-1, etc., are in Taiwan, though I have heard that MMA is catching on. I will say that even when I was there, TKD was the No. 1 MA in popularity and probably still is.



Got any links to footage of the 1978 "Taiwan Blood Bath"?

[Dark Chi]

How many times in one thread does the above need to be stated? :confused:

Why so confused?

Low level practitioners need not apply LOL

[Dark Chi]

Do you guys really think people buy all of this?

Its quite clear isn't? LOL sorry forgot Low level practitioners need not apply LOL