This is Pak Mei Master Simon Lui Long Chun

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKXRIkEvtc

I dont know Bak Mei but in my opionion this master has very good moves so I wanted to share.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Mulong]

From an internal standpoint his ging is bit on the artificial side; he is simply jerking the arms whereas the ging should be coming from opening and closing of the body, i.e., spit and swallow.

[lkfmdc]

I just love the guy dead asleep at his desk!

[taai gihk yahn]

From an internal standpoint his ging is bit on the artificial side; he is simply jerking the arms whereas the ging should be coming from opening and closing of the body, i.e., spit and swallow.

QFT - I mean, there is like almost NO thoracic / costal / pelvic movement AT ALL - even if he's 'internalized" his BM, there is still going to b the undulation / wave movement present; he's 100% shoulder down, no connection to his feet to speak of...

[R]

I have seen guys do demos/vids before and leave out all elements of their ging on purpose. Maybe he just does not want to give away what he does to the general population.

FWIW

R

[diego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBFmDR1_yGo&feature=related

This is my favorite youtube demo guy for Bak Mei...if you notice he starts at the 15 second mark it's like a perfect 30 second HIT Interval session. A beginner would take like a minute and a half to perform that set;)

[Hendrik]

Anyone who practice Pak Mei here? it would be great if some one could describe how Pak Mei generate power.

[Vajramusti]

I just love the guy dead asleep at his desk!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He could be a master in disguise.

joy

[Golden Arms]

Anyone who practice Pak Mei here? it would be great if some one could describe how Pak Mei generate power.

Not something my Sifu would like me discussing on a public forum, sorry Hendrik. Good Pak Mei should be rooted, fluid, and powerful, I will say that much.

[R]

Diego, here is another version (although truncated) of the set you have shown. Compare the intensity between these two sifus.... that in itself will tell you something. I believe Master Chow Fook was in his 70's when he did this set (and had a prosthesis - an artificial leg).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPriM8V0tNY


If you look up sup baht mor kiu you will see a few different versions of the set about.. there seems to be a number of ways that people chose to play their Bak Mei.

R

[Hendrik]

Not something my Sifu would like me discussing on a public forum, sorry Hendrik. Good Pak Mei should be rooted, fluid, and powerful, I will say that much.

Understood. and Thanks.

For me, Pak Mei has its own way. So, rooted, fluid, and powerful are too general to describe it. also, Pak Mei is not Taiji and so it doesnt do those Taiji stuffs.

Not to mention lots of people doing so called Taiji using dan dien....stuffs are actually just posture which cannot generate power in reality.


The clip above, my opinion, is it is pretty good Pak Mei clip and contradict to some others I see this sifu actually is doing Pak Mei and do have the power.


the following is a Bak Mei reference of Bak Mei power type
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLI62AOwfw&feature=related

[Golden Arms]

If you look up sup baht mor kiu you will see a few different versions of the set about.. there seems to be a number of ways that people chose to play their Bak Mei.

R

Correct,

It is my understanding that a lot of how it is performed has to do with if the person was an indoor student or not, and if they learned how to use it for fighting from someone that knew how to use and teach it in that manner.

[R]

Understood. and Thanks.

For me, Pak Mei has its own way. So, rooted, fluid, and powerful are too general to describe it. also, Pak Mei is not Taiji and so it doesnt do those Taiji stuffs.

Not to mention lots of people doing so called Taiji using dan dien....stuffs are actually just posture which cannot generate power in reality.


The clip above, my opinion, is it is pretty good Pak Mei clip and contradict to some others I see this sifu actually is doing Pak Mei and do have the power.


the following is a Bak Mei reference of Bak Mei power type
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLI62AOwfw&feature=related

You managed to find the only other clip of Master Chow Fook on YouTube LOL!!! He certainly does have intensity!!

R

[Hendrik]

You managed to find the only other clip of Master Chow Fook on YouTube LOL!!! He certainly does have intensity!!

R


I think

He is a good data point, and that is when he was young.




another good data point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-INfiu7IQ



see, these are not Taiji so, it is doing it differently. as for internal, is this internal?

[diego]

Hello R Chow Fook is one of my Sigungs I train in Vancouver Chinatown. Hendrik one of the keys to bak mei is it takes two to five years to get good at Ying Jow which has a backstepping section which is repeated a few times. I know sam mor kun one set before YJ. When you move backward you look like you are running forward most people dont show complete BM ging on youtube. You have to sprint like a tiger pounces lol

[TAO YIN]

White Eyebrow generates power with its coordinates and breathing all connected to gravity going in all directions.

[Hendrik]

Hello R Chow Fook is one of my Sigungs I train in Vancouver Chinatown. Hendrik one of the keys to bak mei is it takes two to five years to get good at Ying Jow which has a backstepping section which is repeated a few times. I know sam mor kun one set before YJ. When you move backward you look like you are running forward most people dont show complete BM ging on youtube. You have to sprint like a tiger pounces lol


Thanks Diego!

What is Ying Jow? eagle claw?



my view only, one cannot hide ging from train eyes. so even if one doesnt show it, the boundary of one's ging can be inspect via one's body frame or frame structure. similar to one could take a look at the architecture frame and predict is it earth quake ready....etc.

[Hendrik]

White Eyebrow generates power with its coordinates and breathing all connected to gravity going in all directions.

I disagree with connected to gravity going in all directions.

for me,

PM is using six type of tensing power core with forceful breathing. it is a linear type of power as core instead of all directions. it is a "hard " type of power instead of a "resonance" type such as Chen Taiji or White Crane from Fujian...etc.

[TAO YIN]

Hendrik,

IMO, We can't get away from gravity. It affects us every moment we breathe. If a person punches as hard as he can straight up into the air, he doesn't fly away.

The joints of the body work in unison with the breath and core, but gravity still affects how the movement ends.

IMO, Good Bak Mei works like when you put something under pressure. Once that something is under pressure for a while, it eventually explodes in all directions and falls back to the earth.

Cheers,

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

IMO, We can't get away from gravity. It affects us every moment we breathe. If a person punches as hard as he can straight up into the air, he doesn't fly away.

The joints of the body work in unison with the breath and core, but gravity still affects how the movement ends.

IMO, Good Bak Mei works like when you put something under pressure. Once that something is under pressure for a while, it eventually explodes in all directions and falls back to the earth.

Cheers,


For me,

How gravity play in a momentum generation is different style by style. so that cannot be generalized as Gravity affects us every moment. the question is it affects in what way?

In PM, the momentum generation is forward/backward linear type, so it cannot be explodes in all directions.

We can think as we like, but the physical boundary condition limits us. So, take a look at the youtube. look at the body frame one can predict the boundary.

also, the PM power generation is holding the hip and body joints facing forward, that makes the power a forward/back ward instead of side way. that also tell the boundary of the power generation.

and, this type of power/momentum rely big time on breathing. it is a hard qigong type of mechanics. IMO.

Nothing good or bad but different style different boundary, different strenght and weakness. as usual.

[Frost]

Not something my Sifu would like me discussing on a public forum, sorry Hendrik. Good Pak Mei should be rooted, fluid, and powerful, I will say that much.

Not being funny and not having a go but if you cant mention anything about it why bother posting at all? all you are doing is basically posting to say im not sharing what I know because it’s a secret, fine if that’s how you feel but why bother posting in the first place its just annoying lol

[jdhowland]

I wish cranky old man would comment here. Haven't heard from him in a while.

Any of you B.C. Bak Mei guys know him?

[DuKe1973]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKXRIkEvtc

I dont know Bak Mei but in my opionion this master has very good moves so I wanted to share.


Kind regards,
Xian

Dai Jia Hao.
Fei chang gan xie Xian Ge.
For those who don't know me. My name is Du Ke (Alex Do), todai of Sifu Lui. I have read through the posts as I was notified by big brother Oluf of Pak Mei Pai and have newly registered so that I may join in on the topic.
"Jerking of the hands" is misleading to those who truly do not understand Fau, chum, tun, & tou. To be civil and I will explain and demonstrate on my youtube channel why we consider this as credible PaK Mei Pai.

1) Fau- litterally means float. It implies expansion of the limb like a crane spreading is wing and vertical extension of the spine. Most commonly seen in Biu Gee.

2) Chum- litterally means to sink. It implies concave contraction and hollowing of the chest and dropping of the lower body to center gravity. This absorbs and rides your opponent's incoming force like trying to catch a medicine ball. Commonly seen in the technique Sok Sau.

3) Tun- Litterally means to swallow. Swallowing implies whiplash contractions that redirect your opponent's bridge and their body position (down, down and left, or down and right, or sideways. Commonly seen in gawt sau (in our line is cutting down and out, some sects calle it up and out). Also seen in Chau Kuen (wrenching fist) and lap waang ging which is the famous grabbing hand of Pak mei seen in closing many forms (Sau jong).
* Often Chum and Tun are not seperated. Just like food, you ingest it and redirect it to your stomach with contraction.

4) Tou- Literrally means to spit. Spitting implies the nature to expel like an arrow. Like throwing a rope from one land to another land over the river to to build a bridge. Commonly seen in Chuen mor kiu and Jin Chui.

"the jerking" he states is called waang ging (side power) found in Tun. Many forget the Tun and only do Chum. Take Jik Bo for example: People withraw their elbow in with only Chum, but forget hip movement spring action (tan ging). I will post another clip to keep the legacy of Cheung Lai Chuen's student Ng Yiu alive and well. I refuse to let anyone get in my way without demonstration. Please reply if any questions.

Alex Do
Pak Mei Pai VP Minnesota

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBFmD...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPriM8V0tNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLI6...eature=related

Excellent clips.

[warkid]

Sifu Liu is a credit to the Pak Mei Pai. The other lines would be wise to learn from his school and example. Those who believe they know better should visit and see for them selves the things they cannot on a video. Hey Alex, nice to see you here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A little FYI:
State your views, back them up with facts, links and videos whenever possible.
Understand that not everyone will agree and sahre your views and accept that.
Do not challenge or insinuate challenging anyone.
Disagreement is fine and coming to the "rescue" of one's Sifu is more than acceptable.
Just be careful how you do it and your tone.

[Hendrik]

Thanks Alex. Great job!

[Hendrik]

"the jerking" he states is called waang ging (side power) found in Tun. Many forget the Tun and only do Chum. Take Jik Bo for example: People withraw their elbow in with only Chum, but forget hip movement spring action (tan ging). I will post another clip to keep the legacy of Cheung Lai Chuen's student Ng Yiu alive and well. I refuse to let anyone get in my way without demonstration. Please reply if any questions.


For me,

if one look at the thigh motion a split of second before the Jerk, one will see it is not just Jerking with arm as some think.

0.08-->0.09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKXRIkEvtc

[DuKe1973]

Greeting all.
I've posted a clip over my break time to share how I've been taught to express Pak Mei Pai using 4 energies.
I encourage more discussion should there be questions do write to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqB6lOwnmCA

Alex Do
Pak Mei Pai MN

[Hendrik]

Greeting all.
I've posted a clip over my break time to share how I've been taught to express Pak Mei Pai using 4 energies.
I encourage more discussion should there be questions do write to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqB6lOwnmCA

Alex Do
Pak Mei Pai MN



Excellent! Thanks!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greeting all.
I've posted a clip over my break time to share how I've been taught to express Pak Mei Pai using 4 energies.
I encourage more discussion should there be questions do write to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqB6lOwnmCA

Alex Do
Pak Mei Pai MN

Excellent clip Alex.
Thank you.

When you get a chance I would love to see that being applied in a practical way.
Curious as to how it would work since it looks similar to the SPM I have been exposed to.

[DuKe1973]

QFT - I mean, there is like almost NO thoracic / costal / pelvic movement AT ALL - even if he's 'internalized" his BM, there is still going to b the undulation / wave movement present; he's 100% shoulder down, no connection to his feet to speak of...

Mong ar? M tai dak ar? The first clip is Jik Bo. It's a pitty you can't see the thoracic movement in jin chui. Check out Gau Bo Tui after the whip there's quite the chum ging with the thoracic. Maybe I need to put it in slow mo your your taai gik ge ngaan.

Pardon my fierce nature, but it the spirit of the leopard and tiger speaking that I must represent.

When I practice Taiji, I may speak of snake and crane, but in this forum you will get mang fu!

Alex Do
Pak Mei VP MN (btw- don't compare lingnam mo sut with concepts of peng, lu, ji, an...)

[soulfist]

I read and saw the take on Bak Mei's 4 energies... totally different to how I understand Bak Mei and kung fu to be. Fau Chum is a product of chi and intent, because anyone can stand up and sit down, its just not that superficial. Tun To is something that occurs at each joint and requires no attention at all. Punch and your armpit, elbow, and wrist (for some part) open up and extend, and this is "to". Retract that punch and those joints close, this is "tun". No mystery here.

The posture is unstable and unhealthy too. Curving the back like that puts much pressure on the upper cervicals and mechanically prevents you from releasing proper force. Did Jeung Lai Cheun have posture like that? No he did not.

Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. There are rotation in all strikes either from the hips or the shoulders. What is the behavior of thoracic vertebrae when there is rotation during forward flexion? Spinal mechanics, theres no argument and oh so much supporting research and evidence.

Could any videos be posted of that version of posture and motion striking a punchingbag? Im sure it will have to be modified in order to withstand the impact, but would like to be proven wrong!

http://i.uwants.com/u/attachments/day_100914/20100914_78cae3dae991ca85dcaejiSRkGFfeITS.jpg

[Hendrik]

soulfist,

Do you practice BM?






Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine.




Chi, Intent riding the spine? can one really do this?
Could you please explain?

[Hendrik]

Pak Mei VP MN (btw- don't compare lingnam mo sut with concepts of peng, lu, ji, an...)



This is a fair statement. Taiji is not the universal fit to everything.

[DuKe1973]

QFT - I mean, there is like almost NO thoracic / costal / pelvic movement AT ALL - even if he's 'internalized" his BM, there is still going to b the undulation / wave movement present; he's 100% shoulder down, no connection to his feet to speak of...


"Chum jaang suk bok" (sink the elbows, concave the shoulders). - Hakka kuen saying. For those who never heard this need to "faan heung ha jup ngau si..."
If I throw you a 50 lb bag a rice, you going to catch with your shoulders up?? I'm a taiji player as well, so I'm quite surprised that you don't drop the shoulders in Tuei sau...Dropping the shoulders grounds your bridges and core as well as enhances your sensitivity to incoming force. Even in ballroom dance, you must drop the shoulders. Watch my video Jook Lum Nim Kiu (sticky bridges). Saying what it is is one thing, knowing what it's not is another..

Du Ke (Alex Do)
Pak Mei VP Minnesota

[DuKe1973]

I read and saw the take on Bak Mei's 4 energies... totally different to how I understand Bak Mei and kung fu to be. Fau Chum is a product of chi and intent, because anyone can stand up and sit down, its just not that superficial. Tun To is something that occurs at each joint and requires no attention at all. Punch and your armpit, elbow, and wrist (for some part) open up and extend, and this is "to". Retract that punch and those joints close, this is "tun". No mystery here.

The posture is unstable and unhealthy too. Curving the back like that puts much pressure on the upper cervicals and mechanically prevents you from releasing proper force. Did Jeung Lai Cheun have posture like that? No he did not.

Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. There are rotation in all strikes either from the hips or the shoulders. What is the behavior of thoracic vertebrae when there is rotation during forward flexion? Spinal mechanics, theres no argument and oh so much supporting research and evidence.

Could any videos be posted of that version of posture and motion striking a punchingbag? Im sure it will have to be modified in order to withstand the impact, but would like to be proven wrong!

http://i.uwants.com/u/attachments/day_100914/20100914_78cae3dae991ca85dcaejiSRkGFfeITS.jpg

Obviously you haven't seen Bruce Lee punch a heavy bag.... and yes Cheung Lai Chuen did punch like that. I do adjustments and thorough TCM which includes zheng gu and tui na and do not agree with your statements. My sifu has seen Cheung Lai Chuen perform up close in HK and follows the movements of his disciple Ng Yiu. I dare to object because I am a representative of Pak Mei and will demonstrate to set an example. If you think Qi intention is floating, you're wrong. Intent moves qi and qi is in every element and in every movement if applied correctly. You can even do standing zhuang for qi cultivation. When it comes down to it, body mechanics are still involved. Punches come in and the chest hollows.... keep it simple. Release a bow and the bow bends, simple as that.... faai si choy lay...

[Yum Cha]

Nice video Alex. Pleased to meet you. Minnesota?


As another poster said, "you can see it when it happens properly", not only the 'pop' of the faat ging, but the spine and belly movement too.

I agree that the Chow Fook videos are pretty exceptional, but the poor old gentleman was well past his prime, and very stiff with age. He is hing-dai with my Si-gung.

the video of the New Zealand Sifu doing Gau Bo Twi is pretty 'classic' as per a wu shu demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lji8_uf1ljE&feature=related and probably the best textbook example.

The slow stuff, just demonstration and teaching/showing, not doing, IMHO. I mean, I play it that way sometimes just for grins, focus on breathing, other stuff like that, but it 's a different thing.

You'll notice, the shoulders and head stay in front of the hips, generally. when you see the head being thrown back, it breaks the form and strength. Pak Mei is full of formulae, all you have to do is look and check the positioning, its not rocket science...

Ronin-
Short power in a more live demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h79sQ795Crc

Short power in light sparring:
look at the end, around 120, especially around 1:29
http://www.youtube.com/user/TodaiLeung#p/u/0/HqoV_ivujLM

What you reckon?

[soulfist]

Obviously you haven't seen Bruce Lee punch a heavy bag.... and yes Cheung Lai Chuen did punch like that. I do adjustments and thorough TCM which includes zheng gu and tui na and do not agree with your statements. My sifu has seen Cheung Lai Chuen perform up close in HK and follows the movements of his disciple Ng Yiu. I dare to object because I am a representative of Pak Mei and will demonstrate to set an example. If you think Qi intention is floating, you're wrong. Intent moves qi and qi is in every element and in every movement if applied correctly. You can even do standing zhuang for qi cultivation. When it comes down to it, body mechanics are still involved. Punches come in and the chest hollows.... keep it simple. Release a bow and the bow bends, simple as that.... faai si choy lay...
Jeung Lai Cheun did punch like that you say? Id say all his earlier students would disagree with you entirely! Adjustments through TCM... well I do adjustments through Chiropractic and would argue spinal mechanics with you anytime lad. Seeing JLC up close is not a selling point, otherwise I have 3 teachers who have learned with him directly and this is stronger than just seeing him... though if you think about it neither really holds water. I dont know, you are just too positive that you are right that you wouldnt listen to me even if I was Jeung Lai Cheun. Fai si choi lei tim!

Heres a clip of how my association does Bak Mei, though performed somewhat lazily here. Some may disagree which is fine but this is the way we understand and perform Bak Mei. Look at 4:21 of the clip to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTuDb47Axdw

[Yum Cha]

Jeung Lai Cheun did punch like that you say? Id say all his earlier students would disagree with you entirely! Adjustments through TCM... well I do adjustments through Chiropractic and would argue spinal mechanics with you anytime lad. Seeing JLC up close is not a selling point, otherwise I have 3 teachers who have learned with him directly and this is stronger than just seeing him... though if you think about it neither really holds water. I dont know, you are just too positive that you are right that you wouldnt listen to me even if I was Jeung Lai Cheun. Fai si choi lei tim!

Heres a clip of how my association does Bak Mei, though performed somewhat lazily here. Some may disagree which is fine but this is the way we understand and perform Bak Mei. Look at 4:21 of the clip to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTuDb47Axdw


Soulfist, do you really think there is that much difference, considering the general variations within Pak Mei. I don't. Chow Fook has more ferocity from his Loong Ying, in my humble opinion.

Have you seen this video? It says Dragon style, but it is the Pak Mei Ying Jau Lin Que form, the exchange form from Loong Ying. Notice his waist movement...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

and this video, again, look at the belly and waist: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/images/stories/clips/Pakmei_ging.mpeg

I find both of those to be pretty impressive videos. Both clearly show the collapsing belly and rising extension that characterise the "swallow/spit" "rise/fall' character of Pak Mei.

And since we're getting the Pak Mei folks together, I think its important to mention that HK, Gunagzhou & Vietnam and Futsan all have slightly different evolutions.

Futsan evolved with a lot of additions from the 5th, 6th and onward generations, Guangzhou has more Loong Ying in it, and it kind of froze at the end of WWII when the masters left and the rest were chased underground by the Red Guard, and HK evolved and evolved until Grandmaster Died, adding new bits and developing a codification for the style. That's my take at least.

As for punching bags....

We punch big hand held crash bags, not swinging heavy bags. Just convenience, nothing more.

Having been on the receiving end of perhaps 100,000 punches over the years I can tell you some things about Pak Mei punching, lets look at Sut Choi for simplicity.

You can hit and drive, sure, try to sink your fist in to the wrist if you like, and yea, works a charm. But a well executed sut choi with faat ging, with half a fist of penetration, can go right through the bag and hurt me. Standard issue of blunt powerful power or sharp penetrating shock...

Additionally, rolling the shoulders a bit like that protects your jaw, and helps you cover up.

[soulfist]

I dont know, but Im not so invested in this conversation anymore.

Here is my first teacher of Bak Mei, though I learned from him 2 decades prior to this performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9fvY4MfouY

Here is my clansman of my association just former to now, the way I was training Bak Mei just a few years ago:
http://www.56.com/u54/v_NTg3MTgyMzM.html

Ive trained with at least a dozen teachers, from 5th to 10th generations, and regardless of the skill ranging from lame to exceptional they all talk the talk and convince their respective students beyond doubt that their versions and methods are the purest and most accurate.

Believe as you like, I convince you doesnt benefit me and you convince me doesnt benefit you.

[Hendrik]

Here is my clansman of my association just former to now, the way I was training Bak Mei just a few years ago:
http://www.56.com/u54/v_NTg3MTgyMzM.html
.



This sifu is using Yi Chuan's six face force and compete force concept, so I am not convince this is pure BM.




Thoracic movement... the forward flexion exhibited draws alot of tension to the diaphragm area mostly anteriorly, keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine.


Could you please explain what do you mean by keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. ?

[Hendrik]

and this video, again, look at the belly and waist: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/images/stories/clips/Pakmei_ging.mpeg

I find both of those to be pretty impressive videos. Both clearly show the collapsing belly and rising extension that characterise the "swallow/spit" "rise/fall' character of Pak Mei.





There is a reason why the belly and waist action in this type of art.
often the shoulder upper back handing was over done. However, there is a good reason.

[soulfist]

This sifu is using Yi Chuan's six face force and compete force concept, so I am not convince this is pure BM.

Yichuan does not use this theory, your way off with that. Luk Ging / Liu Jin what your referring to is a southern concept and found in many similar styles to Bak Mei. This is physics of motion, medically it is the three planes: sagittal, coronal, and transverse planes.

The performer Gong Faat Ming has no exposure to Yichuan or other such arts, nor did his teacher before him. Dont put limitations on Bak Mei like the others, instead try to consider what it "is" capable of!



Could you please explain what do you mean by keeping chi and intent in the front when it should be in the back riding the spine. ?

Qigong and Kungfu differ (for this discussion) in that Qigong follows the meridians whereas Kungfu follows the marrow. Structurally, which is what this is about, force comes from the back and not the front. Whenever the back is hunched it is due to a practitioner unable to train his shoulder girdle to move independently of the torso, making it necessary to hunch to achieve "hum hung". If proper training and time is spent then the thoracic should elongate upwards while the scapula rounds out and forwards. I just said up, out, forward... the three planes that I previously mentioned!

That hunch places a load on the neck and presses on the brain stem at the foramen magnum, do it and feel the suboccipital tension for yourself! The spine must be free to move and at no time hunchs. Visually where do you see the tension in the practitioners body? Take an objective look, subcostally in the front and higher up in the T3-7 region laterally behind. Tension, it blocks chi and hinders motion. Do you see the same thing present in the clip I showed?


If you disbelieve then I lead you right back to Jeung Lai Cheun's description of Bak Mei's posture (4 points) and you will see that number three is contradicted with the hunch!

[Yum Cha]

There is a reason why the belly and waist action in this type of art.
often the shoulder upper back handing was over done. However, there is a good reason.

Yes, the guy in the white suit is a bit exaggerated, more for the exercise than for fighting application, but I find it impressive nevertheless, and applicable.

Soulfist, sorry for any offense, none intended. Just a bit of note comparison. I'm always interested in different takes on the style.

I like the second video of your former Clansman. The exercise with the giant bamboo is great. Do you know if the Hap Ging Do still exists? I'm told Sui Ting Fun is living in HK now.

[soulfist]

Yum Cha, no offense taken.

Hap Ging Do and Ging Do are 2 unrelated organizations. Hap Ging Do branched off of Siu Ting Fun's Ging Do for political reasons, and headed by Siu's former classmate/student Lau Cheun. Siu is still living in Guangzhou.

The demo was Siu's student Gong Faat Ming, who isnt really exaggerated as much as "still on the path". His force is good and loves to show it off.

The bamboo is our Sup Ji Jong, cross pattern dummy. One vertical and one horizontal beam and we train different forces on each. It springs back at you which is where the training portion comes in. That video is quite recent as Gong is still training practitioners in Guangzhou, and performs from time to time in Hong Kong where I am.

[R]

http://www.bakmeihapgingdo.com/BMHGD/BiographyofSifuLauSiuChun/tabid/56/Default.aspx

Is this part of the group that split away soulfist or is the name coincidental?
I am not the best at sorting who is who in these threads/webpages/lineage discussions.

ohhh read more and interestingly the only mention of Sui Ting Fun is as the person Lau Siu Chun learnt Lung Ying from.

Thx

R

[soulfist]

Yeah thats them. They have a couple schools going yes but alot of family issues going on and no leader since the main teacher Lau Fai passed away a few years ago. Heres 2 other pages of theirs, but their lineage page is incorrect (weve spoken already):

http://www.hupgingdo.com/home.html
http://www.hupgingdobc.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice video Alex. Pleased to meet you. Minnesota?


As another poster said, "you can see it when it happens properly", not only the 'pop' of the faat ging, but the spine and belly movement too.

I agree that the Chow Fook videos are pretty exceptional, but the poor old gentleman was well past his prime, and very stiff with age. He is hing-dai with my Si-gung.

the video of the New Zealand Sifu doing Gau Bo Twi is pretty 'classic' as per a wu shu demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lji8_uf1ljE&feature=related and probably the best textbook example.

The slow stuff, just demonstration and teaching/showing, not doing, IMHO. I mean, I play it that way sometimes just for grins, focus on breathing, other stuff like that, but it 's a different thing.

You'll notice, the shoulders and head stay in front of the hips, generally. when you see the head being thrown back, it breaks the form and strength. Pak Mei is full of formulae, all you have to do is look and check the positioning, its not rocket science...

Ronin-
Short power in a more live demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h79sQ795Crc

Short power in light sparring:
look at the end, around 120, especially around 1:29
http://www.youtube.com/user/TodaiLeung#p/u/0/HqoV_ivujLM

What you reckon?

Hey dude :)
I like that clip you posted of the form, nice, smooth and fluid with "ging".
As for the short power demo clips.
Meh...
I don't think its possible to show short power in LIGHT sparring, kind of self-defeating know what I mean?
The live demo was fine.
How's training going?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I word on the "sunken chest" thing that is so prevelant in southern arts like PM, SPM, LY and more.
It's not solely the provedance of TCMA, boxing has it too.
In another thread I posted pics of boxers like Marciano, Louis and Tyson that used that "hunched back".
While there can be obvious medical issues from that ( the "mantid posture" that many older SPM master develop for example), the power production and reception is well documented.
I think that some just OVER due it, which can be counter-productive.
There is a "hunch" in one posture when one "sinks the chest" and "rolls over the shoulders" for protection ( as some boxers do) but it should be natural and not forced and depending on bone structure, some will have a noticable one and some far less BUT none should be exagerrated to the point of discomfort.

Remember that the human is UNIFORM, we ALL have the same bodies and power is produced the same from one individual to another ( using the same methods).
Physics and bio-mechanics dictate, not anything else.

[DuKe1973]

Thanks Diego!

What is Ying Jow? eagle claw?



my view only, one cannot hide ging from train eyes. so even if one doesnt show it, the boundary of one's ging can be inspect via one's body frame or frame structure. similar to one could take a look at the architecture frame and predict is it earth quake ready....etc.

Ying Jow Neem Kiu is a form that means Eagle Claw Sticking Bridge (originally called Neem Kiu). It is a form with difficult foot work which most people cut short, either because they learnt it that way, want to hide it, or can'y perform it correctly. Basically what makes this form unique is it's half backward steps which go straight back combined with half corner back steps. Most people cut it short and do the backward shuffle similar to the classic Som Moon and Sup Baat Mor Kiu because it's faster and less difficult. I am the VP of our group and my Sifu is the one performing in the video posted. People have high respect for Chow Fook as do we and is also indirectly related to us. He uses breathwork with strikes which is great. Read all my responses on this post. I hope the info is helpful.
-Pak Mei MN VP
Alex Do (Du Ke 1973)

[DuKe1973]

Excellent clip Alex.
Thank you.

When you get a chance I would love to see that being applied in a practical way.
Curious as to how it would work since it looks similar to the SPM I have been exposed to.

My grew up with SPM, as my SPM sifu is Gin Foon Mark. Check out my Jook Lum clips. I will beat a bag full force and throw around a MMA dummy to demonstrate sometime soon. :-)

[Hendrik]

Yichuan does not use this theory, your way off with that. Luk Ging / Liu Jin what your referring to is a southern concept and found in many similar styles to Bak Mei. This is physics of motion, medically it is the three planes: sagittal, coronal, and transverse planes.

The performer Gong Faat Ming has no exposure to Yichuan or other such arts, nor did his teacher before him. Dont put limitations on Bak Mei like the others, instead try to consider what it "is" capable of!




In my little understanding, the traditional BM six gings are as the following. instead of what was present in the video clip.

"Look-ging-chiy-fat” means the explosion of the six elements of ging power working in unison to create one explosive force. The six elements of ging are:

Teeth
Neck
Shoulders
Hips
Arms
Legs


So, where are those concept come from? if it is not an evolution?





Qigong and Kungfu differ (for this discussion) in that Qigong follows the meridians whereas Kungfu follows the marrow.


Structurally, which is what this is about, force comes from the back and not the front.

Whenever the back is hunched it is due to a practitioner unable to train his shoulder girdle to move independently of the torso, making it necessary to hunch to achieve "hum hung".

If proper training and time is spent then the thoracic should elongate upwards while the scapula rounds out and forwards. I just said up, out, forward... the three planes that I previously mentioned!



in my opinion
I disagree with your view above. In traditional Chinese Neigong, that is not the case.

Chinese Neigong is a systemic thinking product, while you are using the western analytical thinking trying to make sense at some part but missing the big picture.

the above theory including the three planes seems to be a modern psuedo scientific theory which is westernized.






That hunch places a load on the neck and presses on the brain stem at the foramen magnum, do it and feel the suboccipital tension for yourself!

The spine must be free to move and at no time hunchs. Visually where do you see the tension in the practitioners body?

Take an objective look, subcostally in the front and higher up in the T3-7 region laterally behind. Tension, it blocks chi and hinders motion.

Do you see the same thing present in the clip I showed?


Some people over do it due to they dont understand the reason behind the need so it become hunch.
however, there is a good reason for doing what they do.

For me, your above view is an adaption of Taiji and western biology mix. but it doesnt address the needs, the reason, the proper way of doing things in a holistic systemic manner. thus, this type of theory is sound but it really doesnt provide much help.





If you disbelieve then I lead you right back to Jeung Lai Cheun's description of Bak Mei's posture (4 points) and you will see that number three is contradicted with the hunch!



as I mention above Hunch is not proper. however, one needs to address what is proper and why is it lead to hunch? take a look at the general youtube of BM, and see for yourself how many percent of BM clips has that hunch or almost hunch.

[DuKe1973]

Not something my Sifu would like me discussing on a public forum, sorry Hendrik. Good Pak Mei should be rooted, fluid, and powerful, I will say that much.

All styles at their peak should have those mentioned qualities.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

My grew up with SPM, as my SPM sifu is Gin Foon Mark. Check out my Jook Lum clips. I will beat a bag full force and throw around a MMA dummy to demonstrate sometime soon. :-)

Cool,
I have GM Mark's DVD and his books, they are a great asset to my MA library.
My SPM is via Macao by the way.
Whenever you get a chance, that'll be great.
I myself have promised clips too be have been to busy in my free time to do any so I know how it is.

[Golden Arms]

All styles at their peak should have those mentioned qualities.:)

How about that? :D Yet much of what is often shown as representative of Pak Mei and other systems lacks one or more of those qualities.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How about that? :D Yet much of what is often shown as representative of Pak Mei and other systems lacks one or more of those qualities.

The system lacks?
Kyokushin has always had head shots in sparring, it was only in bare knuckle competiion that head shots were disallowed.
In training they are suppose to be there.
I can honestly tell you that is NOT the case with all schools of Kyokushin.
Yet the SYSTEM advocates headshots, the founder killed a man with a HEADSHOT.

[Golden Arms]

The system lacks?
Kyokushin has always had head shots in sparring, it was only in bare knuckle competiion that head shots were disallowed.
In training they are suppose to be there.
I can honestly tell you that is NOT the case with all schools of Kyokushin.
Yet the SYSTEM advocates headshots, the founder killed a man with a HEADSHOT.

Sorry, text does not always convey emphasis as it was intended.

I meant that many of the video clips that people rave about lack those basic fundamentals. That does not mean the system lacks them (I practice Pak Mei) in my view, but that the understanding of some practitioners and teachers appears not to have those fundamental concepts in mind. This is in no way specific to Pak Mei, it appears to be rampant across many martial arts.

Unfortunately, dead style seems to be rampant on youtube.

By the way, its great to see some new posts on this system on the boards, sounds like there are a few on here that have been practicing for quite a while.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry, text does not always convey emphasis as it was intended.

I meant that many of the video clips that people rave about lack those basic fundamentals. That does not mean the system lacks them (I practice Pak Mei) in my view, but that the understanding of some practitioners and teachers appears not to have those fundamental concepts in mind. This is in no way specific to Pak Mei, it appears to be rampant across many martial arts.

Dead style seems to be rampant on youtube.

Yeah...but you know Bro, not everyone is "suited" for certain styles.
Some just aren't a good fit.
It isn't always about the physical either, some people are not suited mentally for certain systems.

[Hendrik]

Ying Jow Neem Kiu is a form that means Eagle Claw Sticking Bridge (originally called Neem Kiu). It is a form with difficult foot work which most people cut short, either because they learnt it that way, want to hide it, or can'y perform it correctly. Basically what makes this form unique is it's half backward steps which go straight back combined with half corner back steps. Most people cut it short and do the backward shuffle similar to the classic Som Moon and Sup Baat Mor Kiu because it's faster and less difficult. I am the VP of our group and my Sifu is the one performing in the video posted. People have high respect for Chow Fook as do we and is also indirectly related to us. He uses breathwork with strikes which is great. Read all my responses on this post. I hope the info is helpful.
-Pak Mei MN VP
Alex Do (Du Ke 1973)

Thank you Alex for your details sharing!

[TenTigers]

Great vids, as always, Alex.
I would like to see more of Lam Wing-Fei's Kwongsai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai from you. Your videos are the best representatives of the style out there.

[Indrafist]

I word on the "sunken chest" thing that is so prevelant in southern arts like PM, SPM, LY and more.
It's not solely the provedance of TCMA, boxing has it too.
In another thread I posted pics of boxers like Marciano, Louis and Tyson that used that "hunched back".
While there can be obvious medical issues from that ( the "mantid posture" that many older SPM master develop for example), the power production and reception is well documented.
I think that some just OVER due it, which can be counter-productive.
There is a "hunch" in one posture when one "sinks the chest" and "rolls over the shoulders" for protection ( as some boxers do) but it should be natural and not forced and depending on bone structure, some will have a noticable one and some far less BUT none should be exagerrated to the point of discomfort.

Remember that the human is UNIFORM, we ALL have the same bodies and power is produced the same from one individual to another ( using the same methods).
Physics and bio-mechanics dictate, not anything else.

Very well stated.

[Yum Cha]

Hey dude :)
I like that clip you posted of the form, nice, smooth and fluid with "ging".
As for the short power demo clips.
Meh...
I don't think its possible to show short power in LIGHT sparring, kind of self-defeating know what I mean?
The live demo was fine.
How's training going?

Hey Ronin,
Yea, there seems to be a lot of interest in seeing short power in application, I feel a challenge to try and capture some...I guess this spring when we bust out the cameras again... You happy seeing some kid get pushed around, or you want to see someone get hit? <grin>

I thought the little demo at the end of the longer clip showed the defender sticking his attacker enough to make him crunch up, and that was just a touch...

I know what the issue is, using that power is a bit like driving a turbo. You stand on the gas, but there is a little delay before the power kicks in. But as you get better, that delay gets shorter, and you get better at anticipating and timing its delivery.

That's one of the benefits of Pak Mei forms training, is getting that mechanic and timing down. Techniques aside, its the deeper mechanic of building that kind of power delivery.

Training, ah, full on 'old man' style... Leg stretches, waist work, arm and chest flexibility, prone core exercises and some shaolin soft form every morning, and a wee bit of hardcore technique repititions. Kungs... High rep, low weight, low impact. At dawn most mornings. Spring is just here and I'm keen for some workouts down at the beach. Running about 195lbs now, fit as I've been for probably 10 years.

I lost one of my best boys to the UK, London, and another one going soon. They are settling in there, met with Dave and Ka Wai, hope they represent. <grin>. We are a bit different, you know...

And, hows life in the Great White North? Still chilling on the training, or getting into new stuff?

[Yum Cha]

Hunching....

Say for example we take our arms and hold them together in front of our bodies, palms up.. forearms together, from elbow to wrist. To me, that is the proper amount of shoulder roll, keeping in mind that the elbows must be able do drop back against the body.

But, as your stance becomes deeper, at the waist, you crunch your stomach as opposed to leaning forward to keep your balance. That crunching of the stomach to drop lower on a deeper stance is one thing that makes the back 'hunch', but its the result of the belly, not the shoulders, to my mind at least.

[R]

Hey Ronin,
Yea, there seems to be a lot of interest in seeing short power in application, I feel a challenge to try and capture some...I guess this spring when we bust out the cameras again... You happy seeing some kid get pushed around, or you want to see someone get hit? <grin>

I thought the little demo at the end of the longer clip showed the defender sticking his attacker enough to make him crunch up, and that was just a touch...

I know what the issue is, using that power is a bit like driving a turbo. You stand on the gas, but there is a little delay before the power kicks in. But as you get better, that delay gets shorter, and you get better at anticipating and timing its delivery.

That's one of the benefits of Pak Mei forms training, is getting that mechanic and timing down. Techniques aside, its the deeper mechanic of building that kind of power delivery.

Training, ah, full on 'old man' style... Leg stretches, waist work, arm and chest flexibility, prone core exercises and some shaolin soft form every morning, and a wee bit of hardcore technique repititions. Kungs... High rep, low weight, low impact. At dawn most mornings. Spring is just here and I'm keen for some workouts down at the beach. Running about 195lbs now, fit as I've been for probably 10 years.

I lost one of my best boys to the UK, London, and another one going soon. They are settling in there, met with Dave and Ka Wai, hope they represent. <grin>. We are a bit different, you know...

And, hows life in the Great White North? Still chilling on the training, or getting into new stuff?

Yum Cha... nice to see your guys are expanding to the northern hemisphere. Are they actually in London or anywhere ****her up my way? I know a few BM guys in London but the only club out my way is in Birmingham which is well out of my way.

R

[Yum Cha]

London for the most part as I understand it. Early days yet.

[Chunli78]

I was told that CLC had taught many students, in many different ways. If you would put all the students next to each other they will all different from each other. He might have done it on purpose to teach each student different. Some were fortunate to have private lessons from him, some even lived with him and took care of him and his sons. Does this means that they learned it all? Nobody will know.

Who will know what is the real Pak Mei? Only Pak Mei himself. We will never know what the real thing is, because it was back then passed on one student, so it was told. Is that true as well?

A master never reveals 100% of his skills, maybe there are now, but in the old times, I don't think so. There is always some things that he took with him in the grave. Even if a master taught 10 people exactly the same, for sure there will still be differences due to different persons and interpretations.
Every students learns from his master in the correct way, because he learned it from his master. Every teacher has good intention to pass on his knowledge to his students. Who are we to judge and say that is incorrect. Were we there to witness it?
Only the master knows it, maybe not all. Do we all have this perfect memory and remember everything? Maybe yes, maybe no.
It's good to share and discuss knowledge to enhance it, and it's best to respect each others martial arts knowledge and skills. Everybody is good in their own way.
The kungfu in martial arts is not to use it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And, hows life in the Great White North? Still chilling on the training, or getting into new stuff?

Nothing new under the sun compadre :D
I've tried to get back into hard sparring but that "inner ear" thing I got is horrid, get dizzy spells way too much...
So doing the bag work, the pad work, conditioning, etc,etc...
Such is life...

[CFT]

I was told that CLC had taught many students, in many different ways. If you would put all the students next to each other they will all different from each other. He might have done it on purpose to teach each student different. Some were fortunate to have private lessons from him, some even lived with him and took care of him and his sons. Does this means that they learned it all? Nobody will know.

Who will know what is the real Pak Mei? Only Pak Mei himself. We will never know what the real thing is, because it was back then passed on one student, so it was told. Is that true as well?Gah! You could substitute Wing Chun for Bak Mei and Yip Man for CLC and it would not sound any different.

[TenTigers]

I was told that CLC had taught many students, in many different ways. If you would put all the students next to each other they will all different from each other. He might have done it on purpose to teach each student different. Some were fortunate to have private lessons from him, some even lived with him and took care of him and his sons. Does this means that they learned it all? Nobody will know.

Who will know what is the real Pak Mei? Only Pak Mei himself. We will never know what the real thing is, because it was back then passed on one student, so it was told. Is that true as well?

A master never reveals 100% of his skills, maybe there are now, but in the old times, I don't think so. There is always some things that he took with him in the grave. Even if a master taught 10 people exactly the same, for sure there will still be differences due to different persons and interpretations.
Every students learns from his master in the correct way, because he learned it from his master. Every teacher has good intention to pass on his knowledge to his students. Who are we to judge and say that is incorrect. Were we there to witness it?
Only the master knows it, maybe not all. Do we all have this perfect memory and remember everything? Maybe yes, maybe no.
It's good to share and discuss knowledge to enhance it, and it's best to respect each others martial arts knowledge and skills. Everybody is good in their own way.
The kungfu in martial arts is not to use it.

You see this often. There are students and there are students. Two students can learn side by side from the same teacher, and one will get the hand, and the other won't.

In TCMA I have seen this especially true.
Some students will ponder and think, while others don't.
Until you experience it, you won't realize just how important the mental part of the training is.
Ever wonder how sometimes, when you spend time away from your teacher, you make leaps in progress, or breakthroughs?
This comes when you think about what you have been taught, rather than simply drilling technique over and over.
Not sure how or why it happens, it just does.

[Golden Arms]

You see this often. There are students and there are students. Two students can learn side by side from the same teacher, and one will get the hand, and the other won't.

In TCMA I have seen this especially true.
Some students will ponder and think, while others don't.
Until you experience it, you won't realize just how important the mental part of the training is.
Ever wonder how sometimes, when you spend time away from your teacher, you make leaps in progress, or breakthroughs?
This comes when you think about what you have been taught, rather than simply drilling technique over and over.
Not sure how or why it happens, it just does.

Agreed TenTigers,

Being present and aware plays a big role in training. Unfortunately this aspect of it is much less exciting sounding to work on, and many let it fall by the wayside.

[Indrafist]

You see this often. There are students and there are students. Two students can learn side by side from the same teacher, and one will get the hand, and the other won't.

In TCMA I have seen this especially true.
Some students will ponder and think, while others don't.
Until you experience it, you won't realize just how important the mental part of the training is.
Ever wonder how sometimes, when you spend time away from your teacher, you make leaps in progress, or breakthroughs?
This comes when you think about what you have been taught, rather than simply drilling technique over and over.
Not sure how or why it happens, it just does.

Very well said.
Some students actually do better with a bad teacher than a good one, because a bad teacher, if the student has real potential, will force the student to develop. Sometimes good teachers can be so 'good' that they contain their students potential.
There's the alchemy in TMA, it's really all about communion between the art and the student. If that communion is there, the teacher becomes almost incidental: which no true teacher would ever deny for their students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Learning and understanding aren't the same thing.
Anyone can learn math, not everyone can understand it and the difference is huge.
Same thing for TCMA.
I believe it is because not everyone has the right mental frame for every system.
Some systems require a laid back person and others a potential sociopath.

[Hendrik]

in my understanding, Chinese martial art learning is complex due to some possibility:

1, the sifu doesnt have a clear handling of the issue. one cannot teach others what one dont know.

2, the sifu is purposely not teaching the Handling key or control point of the issue. for example, all the teaching of holding the spine, the shoulder.....etc could be easily and clearly resolve and handle if one knows what the key needs to achieve. instead of trying to do 100000000000 things proper and mislead into different things and then everyone argue due to everyone thinking what they know is the right and others are wrong.

3, after one knows and have a clear handling of the issue. one's state or level will get deeper as the kung fu get deeper or the proper training proceed.

due to different level, only those who is at higher level could know what is in their level or a level below. the lower level person cannot comprehend what a higher level is unless one is there.

and often, the lower level guy due to ego, arguing the higher level is wrong. and the mess of un ended arguing start within the same school after the GM died.


These are serious stuffs which make TCMA and IMA extinct.




For example, this hunching stuffs. those are really simple stuffs but critical.
those who doesnt know it clearly will never get to advance level due to they are not sure what is it for. and people do not like to talk about it because ego and fear of lost face or purposely do not want others to know. Same situation is all TCMA style. In my opinion.


and then the Fajing stuffs. we all will others we know how to fajing in our own way. is that fajing? how many of us dare to face reality?

[Yum Cha]

Gah! You could substitute Wing Chun for Bak Mei and Yip Man for CLC and it would not sound any different.


Ai Ya! Ok, I can understand how you might think so, but let me explain the significance of that statement to Pak Mei.

Firstly, wing chun is a codified style, created to teach a revolutionary army quickly, blah, blah, blah....in a broad stroke.

Pak Mei on the other hand is a synthesis of a number of different styles and techniques, bound together with a core body mechanic. Many of CLCs students were already high level fighers or teachers, the core body mechanic to generate power can be used within a number of styles, or at least using their fundamentals.

The other issue, is that the forms were never held sacred by CLC, he modified them over time, and for different individuals, and he encouraged his students to create their own.

So, when Pak Mei people start talking about right and wrong, you can see, it gets complicated, and confusing between core principles and external applications....

Hendrik, I liked your comment about knowing what you need to achieve, and working back from there. It involves a bit of free flowing application to get to understand that issue properly.

You keep alluding to something you want to say about the hunching, why don't you just come out with it?

[Yum Cha]

Learning and understanding aren't the same thing.
Anyone can learn math, not everyone can understand it and the difference is huge.
Same thing for TCMA.
I believe it is because not everyone has the right mental frame for every system.
Some systems require a laid back person and others a potential sociopath.

Mindfulness of your training as opposed to rote learning?
Both are best...:D


People do tend to pick what they like, eh?
Yea, I never forget that MA is like any product in the market, there are lots of consumers, and lots of different brands, each offering its own unique mix of actual and perceived benefits. Bell curve with the most being the most average, and either extreme having the elite or the total con.

I'm sure Gene has the demographics!

[Hendrik]

Yum Cha,

I am not a BM player, the following are what I found from my research.


1, Those WCK story are totally wrong. hahaha.
not that way in the history of technology.

2, The hunch back is due to trying to achieve 內練一口氣 外練筋皮骨. or internally one cultivate the breathing, externally one condition the sinew, skin, and bone.

the BM type of hunch back is developed due to the center of the BM power generation is internally one cultivate the breath. meaning, that breathing is the center of the universal and the bone, the spine, the muscle....... are all align to support that breath.

So, it is not about Qi, or spine, or ....etc. but the body evolve into that way to support the hard Qigong type of breathing, namely, force Qi down to Dan Tien. This is very different from Sink Qi down to Dan Tien type of art. IE: SLT of Wing Chun.




Thus, doing this BM type of art means, every breath, one needs to have a solid deep breathing into the lower abs. That is the bottom line and a must to be taking care of before other things. and due to that need various place in the body align to support this. IE the concave of the chest and the alignment on the lower back.

So, this type of art, if one cannot develop this above, one basically doesnt have the power to do the rest.

Now, if people doesnt know the core is the breathing and let the breathing as the GPS;
one will get side track into over doing hunch back, moving spine unneccesary (due to trying to mimic taichi...etc); because they will think they need to do those because some one else doing IE sifu is doing it. but they really dont know what are they trying to achive.



In addition,
as for the theory of Qi and bone marrow in the spine...etc. those are partial view which need to clearly understand. otherwise, it will never work effectively.



For example
Qi travel down from head to Dan Dien via Ren Medirian while exhale. It doesnt travel in the Spine or Du medirian as some might thought.

In fact, Qi travel upward around spine via Du medirian at inhale . at exhale Qi simply dont travel this way but travel via Ren medirian down ward.

if you look at the hunch back moment, those are the movement in exhale phase, and that "hunch back" , if not over doing, is actually supporting Qi flow in the Ren medirian . that is according to the nature.

furthermore, Qi got to flow to make the bone marrow alive. so, if bone marrow needs to be in the picture, then one cannot avoid Qi flow.


So, Everything is inter-related into one piece. without know the details one cannot master the kung fu.

more important, one needs to know what is the primary/dominon key to handle to lead one into a proper basic training.

in the BM case, it is simple basic breathing. one must achieve a solid breathing. one adjust one's body to support that breathing.




sure, today, Taiji, Xing Yi, Yi Chuan type of concept influence TCMA alots, and it is not suprise that in the evolution of southern art, some evolve their art with the Taiji...etc concept. However, if one is not careful on what one is doing. one could lost one's art due to one cant simply import Taiji into one's art and called it internal.

For example, if the Wing Chun people trying to use BM type of frame and breathing that will not fit well; due to the structure of Wing Chun is not design to be that way.

just some thoughts.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....:)

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....:)

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...


IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.

[TAO YIN]

The chest concaves because the shoulders are to be relaxed, and become more and more relaxed over time. It should be a pretty relaxed effort; perhaps forced somewhat to sink the breath into the core, but still pretty relaxed. The lower vertebrae aligns and doesn't really hunch that much if a person hits anything with much force. This exxagerated hunch occurs in forms a lot for some players. It doesn't occur when hitting something unless one wants to lose power, simply because it takes out the element of yul ma (waist) when one exaggerates the hunch in the lower vertebrae. Chi flows through all meridians, all the time, constantly, until death. It doesn't stop then start.

[Yum Cha]

IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.

When you are startled and you jump, do you gasp (inhale) or yell (exhale)?

[Hendrik]

When you are startled and you jump, do you gasp (inhale) or yell (exhale)?
for me,
depend, if you lift your body then inhale is the nature. if you throw your body then exhale is the nature.

there are qi flow related to these but I dont want to get in here. it is a matter or is one using the yin medirians or yang medirians. is one withdraw or is one attack.

there are , physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, qi flow layer and all these layer sit on top of the awareness layer. every layer has its own law and variation.

[Howard]

for me,
depend, if you lift your body then inhale is the nature. if you throw your body then exhale is the nature.

there are qi flow related to these but I dont want to get in here. it is a matter or is one using the yin medirians or yang medirians. is one withdraw or is one attack.

there are , physical layer, breathing layer, intention layer, qi flow layer and all these layer sit on top of the awareness layer. every layer has its own law and variation.

So all possibilities are correct under the appropriate circumstances - shock and calm may manifest differently - healthy or not, effective or not - different issue

[Hendrik]

So all possibilities are correct under the appropriate circumstances - shock and calm may manifest differently - healthy or not, effective or not - different issue

Depend on how deep is ones Kung Fu how much details one has handling in different layer.
The deeper the Kung Fu the more the choice one has.

as you know, advance kung fu means how many changes it can be done within a move.

[Yum Cha]

Nothing new under the sun compadre :D
I've tried to get back into hard sparring but that "inner ear" thing I got is horrid, get dizzy spells way too much...
So doing the bag work, the pad work, conditioning, etc,etc...
Such is life...

Minuerres Disease? (sp?) I had inner ear dammage from a virus, used to kick in now and again, in ever diminishing frequency. Like having massive bed spins, but no grog to blame it on. Its one of those things they treat with weed. I ended up losing 80% balance one ear, but knock on wood, no grief for a couple of years. Mild touch on occasion, but not enough to matter.

Its very hard to diagnose, it took an A grade specialist to figure it out. Same old bloke that did Elton John's throat surgery. A virus in the inner ear...

[R]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re's_disease

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/menieres/menieres.html

:' )

Google is your friend.

R

[Dark Chi]

The chest concaves because the shoulders are to be relaxed, and become more and more relaxed over time. It should be a pretty relaxed effort; perhaps forced somewhat to sink the breath into the core, but still pretty relaxed. The lower vertebrae aligns and doesn't really hunch that much if a person hits anything with much force. This exxagerated hunch occurs in forms a lot for some players. It doesn't occur when hitting something unless one wants to lose power, simply because it takes out the element of yul ma (waist) when one exaggerates the hunch in the lower vertebrae. flows through all meridians, all the time, constantly, until death. It doesn't stop then start.

I totally agree with you about the relaxed part,however I think most of you are mistaken that the chest isn't actually con-caved.I would say simply drop the shoulders and relax them tuck the tail bone in and clench the buttocks at point of impact(punching out).

I believe that if you do concave the chest you will find yourselves over stretching especially on the rise of the Bui Jee, which leads me to over rising if you over rise then your hips will loose power.IMO the energy or or ging in this explosion travels in horizontal circles(coils) and not vertical circles.

The Bui jee is very important for you alignment,this is the guide without this you will find you have not balance,maybe strength in your MA bo but no balance.

Thanks for reading.

[Dark Chi]

IMO,
at inhale if one does a strike, the strike is very different type then the exhale type due to the nature of the human body.

all is simple human body nature boundary condition or limit.


Breathing-I believe to breath naturally Do Not force breath,let yourselves find a rhythm and that rhythm "WILL" change.

We train beyond bounderies beyond condition and beyond our limitations,I dont know how you train,but we strive for Perfection(is perfection or the strive of it a limit?)

thanks for reading

[sanjuro_ronin]

Minuerres Disease? (sp?) I had inner ear dammage from a virus, used to kick in now and again, in ever diminishing frequency. Like having massive bed spins, but no grog to blame it on. Its one of those things they treat with weed. I ended up losing 80% balance one ear, but knock on wood, no grief for a couple of years. Mild touch on occasion, but not enough to matter.

Its very hard to diagnose, it took an A grade specialist to figure it out. Same old bloke that did Elton John's throat surgery. A virus in the inner ear...

They way that it was described to me was that there are these little "crystals" in our ears that keep the balance and pressure regualted and soemtimes due to sudden movement, they get dislodged and can cause extreme vertigo and nausea.
Like watching a Paule Shore or Rob Schneider movie.
:D

[Dark Chi]

Thanks Hendrik
Interesting reading. Makes a lot of sense to me, reasonably accurate from my physical experience.

and Yea, well, not much of a Wing Chun scholar.

And I have a puzzle for you, concerning the flow of breath and muscular tension you discribed.. Actually a puzzle for me, you might care less....:)

Yes, we strike on the exhale, a long drawn out one across several strikes perhaps, but we also train to do the same on the inhale...

The concept being that your breathing sets your core and platform, but doesn't restrain your striking, charging or pulling. This is not sui lam breathing...

Yes I 100% agree this isnt sui lam anything!
When a wing chun practioner teaches pak mei then theres something wrong lol (no balance)

Thanks for reading

[DuKe1973]

Great vids, as always, Alex.
I would like to see more of Lam Wing-Fei's Kwongsai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai from you. Your videos are the best representatives of the style out there.

Thanks for your comments. I will try to post more. The challenge is having a good partner to show it's essence. The gentleman I train is named Dan. He is still learning off and on.

Alex

[Dark Chi]

From an internal standpoint his ging is bit on the artificial side; he is simply jerking the arms whereas the ging should be coming from opening and closing of the body, i.e., spit and swallow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKXRIkEvtc

I totally agree,this is a fine example of over reaching IMO.However I can understand many guys would deem this pretty good.
All the best to him.

edited - Sorry forgot to add the link of the first guy.

[Hendrik]

Breathing-I believe to breath naturally Do Not force breath,let yourselves find a rhythm and that rhythm "WILL" change.

We train beyond bounderies beyond condition and beyond our limitations,I dont know how you train,but we strive for Perfection(is perfection or the strive of it a limit?)

thanks for reading


Best Wishes

[Dark Chi]

Greeting all.
I've posted a clip over my break time to share how I've been taught to express Pak Mei Pai using 4 energies.
I encourage more discussion should there be questions do write to us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqB6lOwnmCA

Alex Do
Pak Mei Pai MN

Very nice,however again you can see the over reaching(stretching).Fa ging would sub-due him quite easily.
Pretty nice power never the less.

[DuKe1973]

I totally agree,this is a fine example of over reaching IMO.However I can understand many guys would deem this pretty good.
All the best to him.

Thanks for all the best. :) Very kind of you.
I think what many people forget is that effective application is our guide. If one can sucessfully execute a technique and achieve proper timing, feeling, and power without feeling exhausted or getting injured, I consider is reaching the peak.

Alex Do

[Dark Chi]

Thanks for all the best. :) Very kind of you.
I think what many people forget is that effective application is our guide. If one can sucessfully execute a technique and achieve proper timing, feeling, and power without feeling exhausted or getting injured, I consider is reaching the peak.

Alex Do

Intresting.Is this all Mr Duke? any spiritual journeys? Ethics? Intresting :)

[Dark Chi]

Very nice,however again you can see the over reaching(stretching).Fa ging would sub-due him quite easily.
Pretty nice power never the less.

Sorry Mr Duke I think I've just worked out this is you?
I don't mean to be dis-respectful,However if you keep your waist from rising what will this do?
Your Bui is pretty much spot on but the waves or the "Fa" is way to much for my liking(sorry)

Fa ging would change your whole posture and direction and diffuse your power whether it be a bui or a lung tui punch.

Hope this helps Mr Duke :)

[Dark Chi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9YcST2WN90&NR=1

I don't recall high kicks in pak mei,there is only deng gueork (stab/ward off leg)

am I missing something???

[DuKe1973]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9YcST2WN90&NR=1

I don't recall high kicks in pak mei,there is only deng gueork (stab/ward off leg)

am I missing something???

Sei Moon Baat Gwa is 4 styles in one created by Cheung Lai Chuen (JoSi).
Sei Moon (Four doors) represents Lau Man Ga, Li Ga, Lung Ying, and Bak Mei.
Baat Gwa (8 diagrams) represents multiple angles, daoist breathing, and the 5 daoist principles in combat.
The tiger kicks is in the middle of that form called 3 foot tiger.

The original Pak Mei 4 forms: have ding, and and ngau/pun teui, which are low kicks.

Cheung Lai Chuen requires forms from his prior masters to be taught in conjuction with the original 4 forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu, and Mang Fu Chuet Lum.

[DuKe1973]

Sei Moon Baat Gwa is 4 styles in one created by Cheung Lai Chuen (JoSi).
Sei Moon (Four doors) represents Lau Man Ga, Li Ga, Lung Ying, and Bak Mei.
Baat Gwa (8 diagrams) represents multiple angles, daoist breathing, and the 5 daoist principles in combat.
The tiger kicks is in the middle of that form called 3 foot tiger.

The original Pak Mei 4 forms: have ding, and and ngau/pun teui, which are low kicks.

Cheung Lai Chuen requires forms from his prior masters to be taught in conjuction with the original 4 forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu, and Mang Fu Chuet Lum.

Also the forms: Sup Gee, Som Moon, Sek Si, Ying Jow Nim kiu, have a linking double jump kick at the closing of the forms called 'seung fei or lin waan tui'.

[Dark Chi]

Sei Moon Baat Gwa is 4 styles in one created by Cheung Lai Chuen (JoSi).
Sei Moon (Four doors) represents Lau Man Ga, Li Ga, Lung Ying, and Bak Mei.
Baat Gwa (8 diagrams) represents multiple angles, daoist breathing, and the 5 daoist principles in combat.
The tiger kicks is in the middle of that form called 3 foot tiger.

The original Pak Mei 4 forms: have ding, and and ngau/pun teui, which are low kicks.

Cheung Lai Chuen requires forms from his prior masters to be taught in conjuction with the original 4 forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu, and Mang Fu Chuet Lum.

Hi Mr Duke
Never heard of Sei moon baat gwa from CLC (I've heard of San mun ken(hak ga)but that was dropped from the main core of PM.

Sei moon= 4 doors to you maybe
san mun = close door to me
somehow the translation is lost or evolved either way im not familiar.

Baat gwa(bat ga ken?)I think there is definate confusion here.
we have ma pu(horse stand/walk),tih pu(straight walk),gui pui tui(nine step push,sip bat mor(18 demons),mang fu chut lim(fierce tiger exits the forest) and umm mor(5 elements)
I believe the confusion lies that the 5 elements are infact lost no one ever achieved this,and this form was to be said by CLC as similar to what we know is Bak gua(not a form at all)
bat ga ken is the same a bak gua(bak gua is cantonese and bat ga ken is hak ga)

I dont know but yours seems to be the juk lim(formly of tong long not direct from PM) although I've not seen how you hold your elbows and fist. Only your strike.

sorry I cant go into lineages as I am bound even now.

thanks for reading

[Dark Chi]

Also the forms: Sup Gee, Som Moon, Sek Si, Ying Jow Nim kiu, have a linking double jump kick at the closing of the forms called 'seung fei or lin waan tui'.

I'd like to ask a question maybe it will help maybe not.

Why would we want(not need) to use high kicks?

I'm sure these came from the later.

the forms mention have no affiliation with Pak mei,not in ours should I say.

thanks for reading

[Dark Chi]

Cheung Lai Chuen requires forms from his prior masters to be taught in conjuction with the original 4 forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu, and Mang Fu Chuet Lum.

To my knowledge only the Li staff was added to the Pm system(and that was common knowledge) nothing else because the other masters could not sub due CLC's hands.

thanks for reading

[Olaf]

Those sets come from diferent systems originally indeed but now have distinct Pak Mei flavour IMO. They now contain Pak Mei principles.

[Dark Chi]

My word!

been on youtube and typed in "Pak mei" my my the world has changed,didnt know so much in 10 yrs.

I feel sick tbh :(

[Dark Chi]

LOL

I've just figuered it out that Simon Lui is your sifu Mr Duke see a few of your yt videos.

this rare case the student is better than the teacher-good on you Mr Duke.

[DuKe1973]

LOL

I've just figuered it out that Simon Lui is your sifu Mr Duke see a few of your yt videos.

this rare case the student is better than the teacher-good on you Mr Duke.

I am Mr. Du Ke/Do Hak (Alex Do).
Sifu Lui is my Pak Mei Sifu, yet my body is much younger so it may appear more limber and flexible. We'll see what time does to me later :(

My southern mantis sifu is Gin Foon Mark, but as you can see from his homepage, he doesn't move like he used to. Perhaps age....

[DuKe1973]

Sorry Mr Duke I think I've just worked out this is you?
I don't mean to be dis-respectful,However if you keep your waist from rising what will this do?
Your Bui is pretty much spot on but the waves or the "Fa" is way to much for my liking(sorry)

Fa ging would change your whole posture and direction and diffuse your power whether it be a bui or a lung tui punch.

Hope this helps Mr Duke :)

The wave is actually a coil around someone's bridge. Perhaps I'll demonstrate in a future video. :) This is the largest "wave" you will see. At it's best, you will only see a small arc and coil. smaller the better. Check out my Regular jik bo video demos. This winter I should be training twice as much as I do now so hopefully I can get some uploads for all to watch. cheers! :)

[DuKe1973]

The wave is actually a coil around someone's bridge. Perhaps I'll demonstrate in a future video. :) This is the largest "wave" you will see. At it's best, you will only see a small arc and coil. smaller the better. Check out my Regular jik bo video demos. This winter I should be training twice as much as I do now so hopefully I can get some uploads for all to watch. cheers! :)

The rising of the body is the floating biu posture ("duk seh tim lei"). It is intended to hit the soft vulnerable points of the body such as the throat and eyes. If you notice, when my body is at the bent triangle stance as also my opponent. As I rise, I would be able to hit his soft points without having raised my arms rather then hit his chest with my finger tips in a stationary position. The obvious would be that I biu gee and raise my arms. This style has much to do about tactic and expecting the unexpected :)

I can guarantee you not many schools know the essence of floating. All is about qi, but also about structure too. Cheers! :)

Remember every style has a trademark. I'm just trying to preserve the styles I've learnt in it's own entity. :D

[Dark Chi]

The rising of the body is the floating biu posture ("duk seh tim lei"). It is intended to hit the soft vulnerable points of the body such as the throat and eyes. If you notice, when my body is at the bent triangle stance as also my opponent. As I rise, I would be able to hit his soft points without having raised my arms rather then hit his chest with my finger tips in a stationary position. The obvious would be that I biu gee and raise my arms. This style has much to do about tactic and expecting the unexpected :)

I can guarantee you not many schools know the essence of floating. All is about qi, but also about structure too. Cheers! :)

Remember every style has a trademark. I'm just trying to preserve the styles I've learnt in it's own entity. :D

Hi
yes but when you rise you rise to high,your legs almost straighten then you sink back its a vertical circle like a wheel motion.IMO the hips should stay on the same level and not go up and down because of the motion of energy.Maybe thats why your ging doesn't appear when you move it seems to decline sorry if I I offend I mean not to.
Yes I understand you dont raise your arms but if the opponant is on the same level then if you rise you would hit his forehead because you rise around 4 inches.
If your hips stayed on the same lvl the you would be on target which is the soft part of the throat.I would say that if you rise then you shouldn't rise more than 1 inch the reason is you can be "chu" (tugged) far to easy one of the essence of sip bat mor.

[Dark Chi]

I am Mr. Du Ke/Do Hak (Alex Do).
Sifu Lui is my Pak Mei Sifu, yet my body is much younger so it may appear more limber and flexible. We'll see what time does to me later :(

My southern mantis sifu is Gin Foon Mark, but as you can see from his homepage, he doesn't move like he used to. Perhaps age....

My father is 77 yrs old and he moves like a 40yr old and my uncle is 80 he moves like a 35 yr old,I'm over 40 and I move like a 25 yr old.
Maybe its because we practice tai chi now have done seriously since 25yrs old but we still laugh and play PM with our "lap suiw" (lap sao) lol

maybe you could do a training video of lap sao they are very entertaining.

thanks for reading

[Dark Chi]

My father is 77 yrs old and he moves like a 40yr old and my uncle is 80 he moves like a 35 yr old,I'm over 40 and I move like a 25 yr old.
Maybe its because we practice tai chi now have done seriously since 25yrs old but we still laugh and play PM with our "lap suiw" (lap sao) lol

maybe you could do a training video of lap sao they are very entertaining.

thanks for reading

I forgot to add we move in very small circles of energy we arn't flamboyant in any way, we do not waste energy of any sort.(especially when we fight or sparr)

[DuKe1973]

Hi
yes but when you rise you rise to high,your legs almost straighten then you sink back its a vertical circle like a wheel motion.IMO the hips should stay on the same level and not go up and down because of the motion of energy.Maybe thats why your ging doesn't appear when you move it seems to decline sorry if I I offend I mean not to.
Yes I understand you dont raise your arms but if the opponant is on the same level then if you rise you would hit his forehead because you rise around 4 inches.
If your hips stayed on the same lvl the you would be on target which is the soft part of the throat.I would say that if you rise then you shouldn't rise more than 1 inch the reason is you can be "chu" (tugged) far to easy one of the essence of sip bat mor.

Measurements can be adjusted. It is true I do stand up as it was taught. It uses the natural law of Yin and Yang daoist principles. Tai Yin is fully sunken at chum where the spine contracts and Tai Yang is fully erect at float position where the spine fully extends (including the legs and arms). Tai means 'very' or fully. In Cantonese Tai Yum and Tai Yeung. The energies are constantly flowing and interchanging, never stationary. From CLC's sons generations on forward they've taken out the stands and raised the biu's, when in actuality it was and still is part of the system. Check with the 1st generation CLC schools before his sons and you will see the same lessons apply. I am not worried about being tugged as long as knowing when to approprately apply Fau how to apply chum, having the optimum whiplash effect. :D

I'm known in the area for my free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges, but wanted to spent this whole year focusing on filming form instead so I can preserve it in history for our Ng Yiu lineage.

I used to wrestle in college, so think of it as a pressing tie to a sudden drop to a double leg takedown.

~Alex

[DuKe1973]

I forgot to add we move in very small circles of energy we arn't flamboyant in any way, we do not waste energy of any sort.(especially when we fight or sparr)

I also do yang style taiji and a little chen. I do agree, taji has great health benefits by keeping the body limber. Do you have any clips on youtube?? :)
I have one, but taiji is too political so the ratings aren't good. Watch it if you'd like. It has only 7 postures in that clip.

In my taiji it is like a river never stale and does not bob. But my Pak Mei is like the seaside with lots of waves. :D

Clips clips clips!!?!

[DuKe1973]

I forgot to add we move in very small circles of energy we arn't flamboyant in any way, we do not waste energy of any sort.(especially when we fight or sparr)

When it comes time I make some PM application vids, it will be similar to my Jook Lum vids but with more sok ging. At both peaks the arts are merely the same.

~Alex

[Faruq]

I'm known in the area for my free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges, but wanted to spend this whole year focusing on filming form instead so I can preserve it in history for our Ng Yiu lineage.

~Alex

Alex, it would totally rock if you video taped (if only to send just to me! lol) some of these free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges! On this forum as in so many other places, whether traditional chinese martial arts even work is a point of serious contentious in this MMA/UFC world. Especially when at all the tournaments martial artists of every style revert to kickboxing, to the point that you would never be able to guess what style or school they were representing without being told. So anytime anyone with your skills comes along, I've got to ask him to represent for TCMA!


My father is 77 yrs old and he moves like a 40yr old and my uncle is 80 he moves like a 35 yr old,I'm over 40 and I move like a 25 yr old.
Maybe its because we practice tai chi now have done seriously since 25yrs old but we still laugh and play PM with our "lap suiw" (lap sao) lol

maybe you could do a training video of lap sao they are very entertaining.

thanks for reading

Dark Chi, with you and your family's qualifications, it would be totally awesome if you taped yourselves in action and posted the footage as well!!!

[DuKe1973]

Hi Mr Duke
Never heard of Sei moon baat gwa from CLC (I've heard of San mun ken(hak ga)but that was dropped from the main core of PM.

Sei moon= 4 doors to you maybe
san mun = close door to me
somehow the translation is lost or evolved either way im not familiar.

Baat gwa(bat ga ken?)I think there is definate confusion here.
we have ma pu(horse stand/walk),tih pu(straight walk),gui pui tui(nine step push,sip bat mor(18 demons),mang fu chut lim(fierce tiger exits the forest) and umm mor(5 elements)
I believe the confusion lies that the 5 elements are infact lost no one ever achieved this,and this form was to be said by CLC as similar to what we know is Bak gua(not a form at all)
bat ga ken is the same a bak gua(bak gua is cantonese and bat ga ken is hak ga)

I dont know but yours seems to be the juk lim(formly of tong long not direct from PM) although I've not seen how you hold your elbows and fist. Only your strike.

sorry I cant go into lineages as I am bound even now.

thanks for reading

I disagree.
Sei Moon Baat Gwa is definitely part of the curriculum. It was Som Moon Baat gwa that was added by some other lineages.
The CLC Pak Mei Saying written by CLC is "四門八掛(勢)細如風" Sei Moon Baat Gwa Sai Yu Fung. Which means the four schools combine to create a momentum like small wind.
Ng Hang and Ng Hang Mor is the closed door forms, which deal with the concept of elements.

Do not confuse with Gwa's in Taiji. Very very different.

Forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu (which does not mean demons,but merely rubbing/adhering), Mang Fu Chuet Lam, Som Moon Chui, Sei Moon Baat Gwa, Sup Gee Kau Da, Dai Sup Gee "Sek Si Kuen", Ying Jow Nim Kiu, Gum Gong Kuen, Ng Hang Kuen, Dei Saat Kuen, Ng Hang Mor. These are all the hand forms.

[DuKe1973]

Tao of CLC Pak Mei Pai:

研拳術 究拳宗
直步拳 是練功
吞吐浮沉在其中
苦練功成勁貫通
十字本事扣打術
三門乃是偷打功
鞭橋搶打猛如龍
四門八卦勢如風
地煞勤練好腿功
循步繼而學正宗
九步推，法猶兇
推馬行橋任我攻
十八摩 變化多
暗藏機關重疊重
練到爐火純青後
猛虎出林是高峰

Form: Sei Moon Baat Gwa is in fact in exisistance for us CLC lineages. I tried to create a small wind with my 3 foot tiger kicks. :D

[Yum Cha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9YcST2WN90&NR=1

I don't recall high kicks in pak mei,there is only deng gueork (stab/ward off leg)

am I missing something???

There is a combination like this in Dey Sut, where most the kicking creativity comes from, however the kicks are directed lower in the version I have learned. Knee and hip joint, with the cresent to the head once the opponent has been kicked in the guts and bent over.

Its quite common for people, especially coming from other kicking arts, to say, 'Hey I can kick High too' and do so.

There's also a brutal low kick in Saam Mun...across the body to the leg, not the regular "teep" kinda stabbing front kick.

[TAO YIN]

Dark Chi,

Agreed and understood. I think concave is a very bad word, I should have put it in quotation marks as it is the word always used. Bad word! hehe

A relaxed heart.;) This is a better idea.

Thanks for replying to my post also.

Cheers,

Tao

[Dark Chi]

Dark ,

Agreed and understood. I think concave is a very bad word, I should have put it in quotation marks as it is the word always used. Bad word! hehe

A relaxed heart.;) This is a better idea.

Thanks for replying to my post also.

Cheers,

Tao

:) Yes much better TY Thank you

[Dark Chi]

There is a combination like this in Dey Sut, where most the kicking creativity comes from, however the kicks are directed lower in the version I have learned. Knee and hip joint, with the cresent to the head once the opponent has been kicked in the guts and bent over.

Its quite common for people, especially coming from other kicking arts, to say, 'Hey I can kick High too' and do so.

There's also a brutal low kick in Saam Mun...across the body to the leg, not the regular "teep" kinda stabbing front kick.

LOL I think I get it Thank you

[Dark Chi]

Tao of CLC Pak Mei Pai:

研拳術 究拳宗
直步拳 是練功
吞吐浮沉在其中
苦練功成勁貫通
十字本事扣打術
三門乃是偷打功
鞭橋搶打猛如龍
四門八卦勢如風
地煞勤練好腿功
循步繼而學正宗
九步推，法猶兇
推馬行橋任我攻
十八摩 變化多
暗藏機關重疊重
練到爐火純青後
猛虎出林是高峰

Form: Sei Moon Baat Gwa is in fact in exisistance for us CLC lineages. I tried to create a small wind with my 3 foot tiger kicks. :D

Ahhh from CBL 5/6th Generation Thank you

[Dark Chi]

I disagree.
Sei Moon Baat Gwa is definitely part of the curriculum. It was Som Moon Baat gwa that was added by some other lineages.
The CLC Pak Mei Saying written by CLC is "四門八掛(勢)細如風" Sei Moon Baat Gwa Sai Yu Fung. Which means the four schools combine to create a momentum like small wind.
Ng Hang and Ng Hang Mor is the closed door forms, which deal with the concept of elements.

Do not confuse with Gwa's in Taiji. Very very different.

Forms: Jik Bo, Gau Bo tui, Sup Baat Mor Kiu (which does not mean demons,but merely rubbing/adhering), Mang Fu Chuet Lam, Som Moon Chui, Sei Moon Baat Gwa, Sup Gee Kau Da, Dai Sup Gee "Sek Si Kuen", Ying Jow Nim Kiu, Gum Gong Kuen, Ng Hang Kuen, Dei Saat Kuen, Ng Hang Mor. These are all the hand forms.

1.according to your PM and maybe a few others.

2.There was my confusion.your confusion hasnt surfaced yet ;)

3.1st and 2nd generation I assure you wasn't that which you speak.you also have to check CLC pre-HK

I suppose its not important only that evolvement is the answer in this case :)

[Dark Chi]

Alex, it would totally rock if you video taped (if only to send just to me! lol) some of these free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges!



Dark , with you and your family's qualifications, it would be totally awesome if you taped yourselves in action and posted the footage as well!!!

Faruq as you may have anticipated,I don't think it will happen in my life time our preservation is intact and is not open unfortunately to you so sorry to decline :(
Mr Dukes is also far superior than myself 's and looks much better :) I too would love to see these free hand fighting skills but after yesterday on youtube pm I think Ive had enough of Videos.

[Dark Chi]

I also do yang style taiji and a little chen. I do agree, taji has great health benefits by keeping the body limber. Do you have any clips on youtube?? :)
I have one, but taiji is too political so the ratings aren't good. Watch it if you'd like. It has only 7 postures in that clip.

In my taiji it is like a river never stale and does not bob. But my Pak Mei is like the seaside with lots of waves. :D

Clips clips clips!!?!

Yes It is healthy and more,I do have a whole collection sets training methods etc but unfortunately they are only for my son,and I doubt you would need to see them anyway.

Thanks for reading

[Faruq]

True. So few of the people who post here actually put up clips. I applaud Mr Do for all his clips, and actually admire that he's been able to learn all these arts. I wish I had been able to at some point.

[DuKe1973]

There is a combination like this in Dey Sut, where most the kicking creativity comes from, however the kicks are directed lower in the version I have learned. Knee and hip joint, with the cresent to the head once the opponent has been kicked in the guts and bent over.

Its quite common for people, especially coming from other kicking arts, to say, 'Hey I can kick High too' and do so.

There's also a brutal low kick in Saam Mun...across the body to the leg, not the regular "teep" kinda stabbing front kick.

"Yum Cha". You nailed it correctly. Dei Saat Kuen does have a sliding scissors,kneeling side kick, a hand stand double gut kick and jump inner cresent kick to the head.

Alex

[DuKe1973]

Yes It is healthy and more,I do have a whole collection sets training methods etc but unfortunately they are only for my son,and I doubt you would need to see them anyway.

Thanks for reading

Chen? Yang? Which do you practice? :D

[DuKe1973]

Alex, it would totally rock if you video taped (if only to send just to me! lol) some of these free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges! On this forum as in so many other places, whether traditional chinese martial arts even work is a point of serious contentious in this MMA/UFC world. Especially when at all the tournaments martial artists of every style revert to kickboxing, to the point that you would never be able to guess what style or school they were representing without being told. So anytime anyone with your skills comes along, I've got to ask him to represent for TCMA!



Dark Chi, with you and your family's qualifications, it would be totally awesome if you taped yourselves in action and posted the footage as well!!!

If I ever did TCMA in MMA, I'd have to give up my day job and family. I could never do that, unless fate had it set up that way....

Alex

[Faruq]

If I ever did TCMA in MMA, I'd have to give up my day job and family. I could never do that, unless fate had it set up that way....

Alex

No Alex, I just meant taping some of your free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges so we could finally see a martial artist using his art in combat rather than reverting to generic kickboxing like everyone else. Of course this could be taken to the next levels as well of tournaments, and then the MMA; but I'd be happy to just see Pak Mei Pai or SPM used in a fight...

[Yum Cha]

No Alex, I just meant taping some of your free hand fighting skills and sticky hand challenges so we could finally see a martial artist using his art in combat rather than reverting to generic kickboxing like everyone else. Of course this could be taken to the next levels as well of tournaments, and then the MMA; but I'd be happy to just see Pak Mei Pai or SPM used in a fight...

See, here it is in a nutshell....

Unless you do it, you don't know what to expect from Pak Mei. That is a tremendous advantage.
What you see on youtube, in terms of fighting, is generally basic to middle grade, or guys doing San Da. Maybe some advanced guys doing static demos...

All kinds of people can give you the rap on the internal and external powers, the formulas, the 8 hands, but when it comes to the down and dirty of the fighting technique, its a whole another story. I even get grief for what I post on our website....

[Dark Chi]

Chen? Yang? Which do you practice? :D

Many people study Chen and yang from Pm I wonder why?

I study Yin and Li of course.Why would I practice any other?

[Dark Chi]

True. So few of the people who post here actually put up clips. I applaud Mr Do for all his clips, and actually admire that he's been able to learn all these arts. I wish I had been able to at some point.

Why Faruq? Isnt your WC enough?

[Dark Chi]

See, here it is in a nutshell....

Unless you do it, you don't know what to expect from Pak Mei. That is a tremendous advantage.
What you see on youtube, in terms of fighting, is generally basic to middle grade, or guys doing San Da. Maybe some advanced guys doing static demos...

All kinds of people can give you the rap on the internal and external powers, the formulas, the 8 hands, but when it comes to the down and dirty of the fighting technique, its a whole another story. I even get grief for what I post on our website....

It seem you've had some experience of this "down and dirty" Yum Cha and so you should get grief.It takes a serious mind to spar or fight with Pm its very dangerous without self control its easy to damage your sparring partner.
Eg.when you watch Bruce Lee doing chi sao he has control and respects by not full extending otherwise he would really hurt his sparring partner.Far to often I see chi sao boys of wing chun mainly from Leung tin's line extending more than they should,they say its so that when they really need to punch they wont stop half way(what a load of croc I say)Funny thing is when they go to competitions the revert to Kick boxing style as Faruq mentioned earlier.
Most Arts don't show you how to attack an opponent,Pm does.

P.s I only use Bruce Lee as an example because of his Ging(wing chun doesn't use Ging btw they use Lim Lik)

[Dark Chi]

Chen? Yang? Which do you practice? :D

Mr Duke out of my curiosity which style out of all the many styles you have study/studying do you prefer?

[Yum Cha]

It seem you've had some experience of this "down and dirty" Yum Cha and so you should get grief.It takes a serious mind to spar or fight with Pm its very dangerous without self control its easy to damage your sparring partner.
Eg.when you watch Bruce Lee doing chi sao he has control and respects by not full extending otherwise he would really hurt his sparring partner.Far to often I see chi sao boys of wing chun mainly from Leung tin's line extending more than they should,they say its so that when they really need to punch they wont stop half way(what a load of croc I say)Funny thing is when they go to competitions the revert to Kick boxing style as Faruq mentioned earlier.
Most Arts don't show you how to attack an opponent,Pm does.

P.s I only use Bruce Lee as an example because of his Ging(wing chun doesn't use Ging btw they use Lim Lik)

Hi Dark
No, not me, I'm just an clean living citizen, training my hobby with a bunch of great friends. Did some fighting many years ago, now I just let the young boys try to beat me up. I don't take too much damage though, I have size and weight on them.

Yes, I see this as a critical issue with the training, and have put a lot of time into ways of building the progressive skills as elements, then bringing them together to test their effectiveness as a whole in a dynamic manner. I hate to call it sparring, because if you understand how it works, you know sparring isn't really accurate.
Just slapping on gloves and gear and having at it trains a good fighter in many instances, but not good Pak Mei fighting.
I believe you have to train full extension, but not necessarily full power all the time.

Unless you are in range to hit and put weight into it to connect, your opponent is likewise suffering from poor training, not having the opportunity to feel the proper dynamic and respond with an effective reply. I don't believe in "hands fighting hands".
Part of the training is learning how to take a hit...what can you say, sometimes people get hurt, but not often, and not badly.
As you probably know, there are benign and there are evil ways to do many things...if you can do the benign way, learning the evil alternative is pretty straight forward.

[Faruq]

Why Faruq? Isnt your WC enough?

LOL!!! Hell no, Sifu! That was 20 years ago, and I didn't even get to chum kiu! LOL

[Dark Chi]

Hi Dark
No, not me, I'm just an clean living citizen, training my hobby with a bunch of great friends. Did some fighting many years ago, now I just let the young boys try to beat me up. I don't take too much damage though, I have size and weight on them.

Yes, I see this as a critical issue with the training, and have put a lot of time into ways of building the progressive skills as elements, then bringing them together to test their effectiveness as a whole in a dynamic manner. I hate to call it sparring, because if you understand how it works, you know sparring isn't really accurate.
Just slapping on gloves and gear and having at it trains a good fighter in many instances, but not good Pak Mei fighting.
I believe you have to train full extension, but not necessarily full power all the time.

Unless you are in range to hit and put weight into it to connect, your opponent is likewise suffering from poor training, not having the opportunity to feel the proper dynamic and respond with an effective reply. I don't believe in "hands fighting hands".
Part of the training is learning how to take a hit...what can you say, sometimes people get hurt, but not often, and not badly.
As you probably know, there are benign and there are evil ways to do many things...if you can do the benign way, learning the evil alternative is pretty straight forward.

1.You sound a very fine specimen of a man with you clean living hobby,size and weight.

2.I agree sparring would be inacurate,however its the closest word in the English dictionary.

3.Training full extension with half power doesnt make sense to me sorry.Are you referring to si lik?

4.yes again it seems more si lik than ging lik to me or thats how your explaining that how you do things.("Unless you are in range to hit and put weight into it to connect, your opponent is likewise suffering from poor training, not having the opportunity to feel the proper dynamic and respond with an effective reply.")

5. Hands fighting Hands? Im not familiar to this.

6. Yes I agree with you on taking a hit however a PM hit you must be joking event with your si lik it would put most in hospital at half power thats why I did write "self control".

7.There is only the intent which is always evil in PM,didnt you know you practice deadly arts?Thats why I wrote it takes a serious mind.

Thanks for reading sir.

[AJM]

From an internal standpoint his ging is bit on the artificial side; he is simply jerking the arms whereas the ging should be coming from opening and closing of the body, i.e., spit and swallow.

True. I did not see control of the waist. There was some spiral jin in the arms. The student had nothing.

[Faruq]

6. Yes I agree with you on taking a hit however a PM hit you must be joking event with your si lik it would put most in hospital at half power thats why I did write "self control".

7.There is only the intent which is always evil in PM,didnt you know you practice deadly arts?Thats why I wrote it takes a serious mind.

Thanks for reading sir.

You must be Lee Chun Pai. And I never knew Pak Mei Pai required an evil intent, though it does make sense. I wonder if the meditations from the system involve evil.....

[Golden Arms]

You must be Lee Chun Pai. And I never knew Pak Mei Pai required an evil intent, though it does make sense. I wonder if the meditations from the system involve evil.....

Dark Chi is not Lee Chun Pai.

[Dark Chi]

You must be . And I never knew Pak Mei Pai required an evil intent, though it does make sense. I wonder if the meditations from the system involve evil.....

Nope this is lee chun pai http://www.pakmei.net/PaiLum/PaiLumCanada.htm

Close but distant cousins and not important.

[Dark Chi]

Dark is not .

Thank you G.A

[Faruq]

Nope this is lee chun pai http://www.pakmei.net/PaiLum/PaiLumCanada.htm

Close but distant cousins and not important.

Well, do you want to reveal your identity? I mean you obviously know a lot about Pak Mei Pai, so it's been a pleasure to read your posts. You've got to be someone who's mastered the system, right? I mean, you see my location on my profile. And as I've said before, I'm just a guy who never met the right people and was never in the right place to learn the system. But I'm sure everybody's got to be curious as to where your school is and whether you're Hong Kong or Guangzhou, etc.

[Dark Chi]

Well, do you want to reveal your identity? I mean you obviously know a lot about Pak Mei Pai, so it's been a pleasure to read your posts. You've got to be someone who's mastered the system, right? I mean, you see my location on my profile. And as I've said before, I'm just a guy who never met the right people and was never in the right place to learn the system. But I'm sure everybody's got to be curious as to where your school is and whether you're Hong Kong or Guangzhou, etc.

Hi Faruq
may I ask how old you are and what is this interest you have?

1.my pai - I simply don't have a school and I teach only any sons with the sur- name of Li (hak Ga Blood) so how would this be important?

2.I have not mastered the Pak mei system to my knowledge no-one has not even the CLC sons have.I practice the Li tai chi (Li gihk suiw) .How is this important?

3.I live between HK and the Uk,how is this important?

4.Have you tried video conference teaching?IMO don't knock it till you've tried it-there are many poeple that may teach you-have you tried asking Mr Duke hes an open school after all.how is this important?It would be none of my business.

Dear Faruq if your intentions are to learn Pak mei then nothing should stand in your way,be brave and seek but you might be shocked to find more than you bargained for.

I don't know what else to write Im sure there are many that could help here.

[Dark Chi]

P.s Faruq this thread isnt about me but Mr Simon Lui

[Faruq]

P.s Faruq this thread isnt about me but Mr Simon Lui

Quite right, and your answer #1 was all I was looking for. I really appreciate how Mr Simon Lui and Alex Do have put the fascinating art Pak Mei Pai on youtube, which a mere ten years ago was unheard of. Now Lui Sifu, BaiMeiWuDo and so many other schools are displaying the beautiful but deadly system on the net. It's really a great age for fans of the system and for martial arts enthusiasts in general. Mr Do is quite a fortunate man to have access to this knowledgeable teacher.

[Faruq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKXRIkEvtc

I dont know Bak Mei but in my opionion this master has very good moves so I wanted to share.


Kind regards,
Xian

His Sup Gee really reminds me of the one from Kwong Man Fong's ESPY-TV demo with only a few moves [such as the double fish-hook to the eyes (how do you even say that in Cantonese?)] taken out. Since that's taken out of his demo, I wouldn't be surprised if he's got to do revised forms with the signature moves removed for clips posted for public consumption on youtube, etc.

[diego]

See, here it is in a nutshell....

Unless you do it, you don't know what to expect from Pak Mei. That is a tremendous advantage.
What you see on youtube, in terms of fighting, is generally basic to middle grade, or guys doing San Da. Maybe some advanced guys doing static demos...

All kinds of people can give you the rap on the internal and external powers, the formulas, the 8 hands, but when it comes to the down and dirty of the fighting technique, its a whole another story. I even get grief for what I post on our website....

about a year ago when I started to relax enough to understand the BM posture I realized I would hate to fight someone now...If a junkie robber tried to attack me I would probably use basic boxing technique I wouldn't be able to slow down if I ran through him with sub jee footwork and i really dont want to jik bo his eye then sink a heart punch to his throat or go hop gar and kick him in the nuts and hammerfist the back of his neck...that **** is grimy or what if I have a pocketknife on me am I going to start jik bo'n at his face and chest?. fuk that You're better off just to submit him.:cool:

[Dark Chi]

about a year ago when I started to relax enough to understand the BM posture I realized I would hate to fight someone now...If a junkie robber tried to attack me I would probably use basic boxing technique I wouldn't be able to slow down if I ran through him with sub jee footwork and i really dont want to jik bo his eye then sink a heart punch to his throat or go hop gar and kick him in the nuts and hammerfist the back of his neck...that **** is grimy or what if I have a pocketknife on me am I going to start jik bo'n at his face and chest?. fuk that You're better off just to submit him.:cool:


LOL very nice diego.

You see Mr Yum cha, Merci of this-Self control speaks much louder.

Indecently diego when would you use your Pm on anyone?

[Faruq]

LOL very nice diego.

You see Mr Yum cha, Merci of this-Self control speaks much louder.

Indecently diego when would you use your Pm on anyone?

Mr Dark Chi, what is the correct answer to "when would you use your Pm on anyone?" What's the correct answer at least for you?

[Dark Chi]

Mr Dark Chi, what is the correct answer to "when would you use your Pm on anyone?" What's the correct answer at least for you?

Hmm tricky wasn't expecting this question to return so quick to me :)

Mr Faruq you must be blessed with pretty good insight.

My answer is simple-I would only use pak mei hands for my immediate Family eg not my brothers,sisters,mom,dad,cousins,uncles,grandmothe rs,grand fathers,great grand fathers...................list goes on-NOT them.oh and yes I would kill for them if needed eg we got into a war or invaded etc.

[Dark Chi]

Mr Dark Chi, what is the correct answer to "when would you use your Pm on anyone?" What's the correct answer at least for you?

Strange its meant tobe Faruq the quote but has changed to ;1133648 (sigh)machines great arn't they?

[Faruq]

Hmm tricky wasn't expecting this question to return so quick to me :)

Mr Faruq you must be blessed with pretty good insight.

My answer is simple-I would only use pak mei hands for my immediate Family eg not my brothers,sisters,mom,dad,cousins,uncles,grandmothe rs,grand fathers,great grand fathers...................list goes on-NOT them.oh and yes I would kill for them if needed eg we got into a war or invaded etc.

I understand.

[Dark Chi]

I understand.

Really? Then you must be a Master.

[Faruq]

Really? Then you must be a Master.

LOL I wish.

[Dark Chi]

LOL I wish.

Mr Faruq
It is all within,however these days all you have to do is do a few YT clips and hey! you can be a Grand Master LOL

[Faruq]

Mr Faruq
It is all within,however these days all you have to do is do a few YT clips and hey! you can be a Grand Master LOL

I'd much rather have the skill and knowledge (and master Cantonese, Hakka and Mandarin) with no one but my family knowing than have some title. It wasn't my destiny I guess:-( I would never want to have a kung fu school.

[Dark Chi]

I'd much rather have the skill and knowledge (and master Cantonese, Hakka and Mandarin) with no one but my family knowing than have some title. It wasn't my destiny I guess:-( I would never want to have a kung fu school.

you do know that the movements of kung fu are fundamental?I can easily teach a man in a wheel chair Kung fu believe it or not.

The movements are but a bonus lol.

Let me explain the Body,Mind and spirit please Mr Faruq.Or do you fancy a shot?

[Faruq]

you do know that the movements of kung fu are fundamental?I can easily teach a man in a wheel chair Kung fu believe it or not.

The movements are but a bonus lol.

Let me explain the Body,Mind and spirit please Mr Faruq.Or do you fancy a shot?

No sir. I think I'll be quiet this time around and let you grown folks speak.

[Dark Chi]

No sir. I think I'll be quiet this time around and let you grown folks speak.

LOL you're meant to rise up to the challenge sir.

[Dark Chi]

Where are my manners how about Mr Duke or you Mr Yum Cha?

care to explain the Body,Mind and spirit? your take on it of course.

[Faruq]

LOL, I haven't the knowledge to begin. Please just tell us, Mr Dark Chi.

[Brule]

wow, very mystical postings here in the southern forum.

[Dark Chi]

wow, very mystical postings here in the southern forum.

Where Mr Brule ?

[Yum Cha]

Where are my manners how about Mr Duke or you Mr Yum Cha?

care to explain the Body,Mind and spirit? your take on it of course.

Thank you for your kind deference, Mr Chi, but I have little to say about these things, I prefer just to listen. I have all kinds of physical experiences that I don't have words or should I say Jargon for. Its not really an issue, they happen without my conscious pursuit or anything other than my little path...they mean nothing to anybody but me, and they seem to fit into lots of different categories when people speak about them. Like an agnostic, I feel what I feel, I don't need to know or possess an understanding beyond what is.

Formally, I train some breathing, more yik gang ging than hei gung, same difference really.

As for the Tao, all things with nature, balance of good and ill, black and white, strong and weak, yang and yin, and it applies to all things. Breathing perhaps, and the comfort in knowing life and death are the same coin? Perhaps you can inspire me?

[Dark Chi]

Thank you for your kind deference, Mr Chi, but I have little to say about these things, I prefer just to listen. I have all kinds of physical experiences that I don't have words or should I say Jargon for. Its not really an issue, they happen without my conscious pursuit or anything other than my little path...they mean nothing to anybody but me, and they seem to fit into lots of different categories when people speak about them. Like an agnostic, I feel what I feel, I don't need to know or possess an understanding beyond what is.

Formally, I train some breathing, more yik gang ging than hei gung, same difference really.

As for the Tao, all things with nature, balance of good and ill, black and white, strong and weak, yang and yin, and it applies to all things. Breathing perhaps, and the comfort in knowing life and death are the same coin? Perhaps you can inspire me?

nice ill just wait for alittle longer for mr duke.atleast youre honest mr yum cha.respect :)

[Faruq]

nice ill just wait for alittle longer for mr duke.atleast youre honest mr yum cha.respect :)


Mr Duke added a nice new video of himself whipping through Ying Jow Kuen (I don't have access to youtube here, so I'm trying to remember the name of the form from memory) to his channel. Mr Duke's a baaaaaaad man. It's real cool that he's a cool person too, and him and his Sifu have opened Pak Mei up to the public. Hats off to you Mr Duke!

[Brule]

Where Mr Brule ?

He who asks, knows, Mr Dark.

[Dark Chi]

Mr Duke added a nice new video of himself whipping through Ying Jow Kuen (I don't have access to youtube here, so I'm trying to remember the name of the form from memory) to his channel. Mr Duke's a baaaaaaad man. It's real cool that he's a cool person too, and him and his Sifu have opened Pak Mei up to the public. Hats off to you Mr Duke!

I think this is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-v-rfD-2n4

[Faruq]

Yep! It's a great day to live in for learning Pak Mei Pai!

[Dark Chi]

Let me begin with,
Sorry
I can't wait any Longer as I'm getting messages asking me to explain and it seems Mr Duke is busy and doesn't have any interest in this subject,also I apologise for diverting this thread but I think some will get this and has a lot to do with this thread.
Get a pencil and a sheet of paper,draw a circle this represents the mind.
Draw another circle inside the first one this represents the Spirit,then dot a spot right in the centre and this will represent the body.

Now how does this entwine? this entwines with the help of Chi which forms the ying yang circle which I'm sure you are all familiar with,if not please google it.Each person has one of these circles that joins with other circles to create something else but we will get to that later perhaps.

Ok how does this happen?Lets start by waking up,when you wake up you can wake up groggy or half asleep and as you are waking more and more this is your Spirit/motivation driving your body to make it do things.your spirit craves for new experiences or thrilling experiences which feeds the ego making it bigger at this point fills the mind which are your experiences until you go back to sleep.Ok from sleep to wake up we call it rest,well, we all know that the mind does not switch off and the spirit never rests so what happens? We say the spirit goes out to play as the body rests and your mind joins the cosmos as you set the spirit free.
This process continues as you live your life over and over again till our body dies.

Now to do with Kung fu?
Kung Fu is the way we do things in life or a profession, you can have kung fu in cooking,building,football etc its how we discipline and process our daily lives.
A person can have as many different kung fu as its to do with the intentions,so if you have bad intentions your kung fu is bad or if you are lazy then your kung fu suffers etc etc and it goes on and on I think you get the point.

With Kung fu as in here eg Pm,CLF and SPM etc it enhances our awareness therefore our circles expand and decreases throughout the day what we are doing is manipulating the ying yang till we are old or wise enough to manipulate the chi.

I think thats about it

Thanks for reading

[Faruq]

Let me begin with,
Sorry
I can't wait any Longer as I'm getting messages asking me to explain and it seems Mr Duke is busy and doesn't have any interest in this subject,also I apologise for diverting this thread but I think some will get this and has a lot to do with this thread.
Get a pencil and a sheet of paper,draw a circle this represents the mind.
Draw another circle inside the first one this represents the Spirit,then dot a spot right in the centre and this will represent the body.

Now how does this entwine? this entwines with the help of Chi which forms the ying yang circle which I'm sure you are all familiar with,if not please google it.Each person has one of these circles that joins with other circles to create something else but we will get to that later perhaps.

Ok how does this happen?Lets start by waking up,when you wake up you can wake up groggy or half asleep and as you are waking more and more this is your Spirit/motivation driving your body to make it do things.your spirit craves for new experiences or thrilling experiences which feeds the ego making it bigger at this point fills the mind which are your experiences until you go back to sleep.Ok from sleep to wake up we call it rest,well, we all know that the mind does not switch off and the spirit never rests so what happens? We say the spirit goes out to play as the body rests and your mind joins the cosmos as you set the spirit free.
This process continues as you live your life over and over again till our body dies.

Now to do with Kung fu?
Kung Fu is the way we do things in life or a profession, you can have kung fu in cooking,building,football etc its how we discipline and process our daily lives.
A person can have as many different kung fu as its to do with the intentions,so if you have bad intentions your kung fu is bad or if you are lazy then your kung fu suffers etc etc and it goes on and on I think you get the point.

With Kung fu as in here eg Pm,CLF and SPM etc it enhances our awareness therefore our circles expand and decreases throughout the day what we are doing is manipulating the ying yang till we are old or wise enough to manipulate the chi.

I think thats about it

Thanks for reading

That's some of the deepest, realest kung fu philosophy I've ever heard in my life!!! Books and instructors all my life have made undecipherable philosophical quotes and played mental ring-around-the-rosie with us concerning martial concepts such as chi, yi...and will, intent...and the will guides the chi, or was it the intent that guides the chi, and then the will guides the intent...and inner peace this, and inner peace that. And here out of nowhere, Dark Chi Sifu drops this bomb of clear cut knowledge that explains with actual real-life examples (no mumbo-jumbo) how all this stuff works!!! Incredible!!! It'll be a sad day if you ever get bored and leave the forum. How much else has been missing of my understanding of kung fu my whole life???? Dare I say I've beeeeen deceived brothers!!! All my life unfortunately, lol...

[Dark Chi]

That's some of the deepest, realest kung fu philosophy I've ever heard in my life!!! Books and instructors all my life have made undecipherable philosophical quotes and played mental ring-around-the-rosie with us concerning martial concepts such as chi, yi...and will, intent...and the will guides the chi, or was it the intent that guides the chi, and then the will guides the intent...and inner peace this, and inner peace that. And here out of nowhere, Dark Chi Sifu drops this bomb of clear cut knowledge that explains with actual real-life examples (no mumbo-jumbo) how all this stuff works!!! Incredible!!! It'll be a sad day if you ever get bored and leave the forum. How much else has been missing of my understanding of kung fu my whole life???? Dare I say I've beeeeen deceived brothers!!! All my life unfortunately, lol...

It is only fundamental,we teach this to our 11/12 yr olds and there are much deeper teachings than these.I would like to write more but I don't think you'd get the concept.

[Faruq]

That sucks. You're probably right. Too bad you can't write a new concept for 11-12 yr olds each day and then go up to the next level until you've explained all those, and then the next, etc...

[Dark Chi]

That sucks. You're probably right. Too bad you can't write a new concept for 11-12 yr olds each day and then go up to the next level until you've explained all those, and then the next, etc...

I think you're mistaken Mr Faruq,I didn't write that concept it was passed down or gets passed down sorry to confuse you.I simply just translated it the best I could.

[Faruq]

I think you're mistaken Mr Faruq,I didn't write that concept it was passed down or gets passed down sorry to confuse you.I simply just translated it the best I could.

No, I meant writing these concepts that have been passed down for us like you did this concept. I've never been exposed to this knowledge before.

[Dark Chi]

A young student would take the concept and converse with a family member so that he could build on it,manipulate it, then would come back to the sifu and tell him what he thought.he would either lvl up or would have to do more horse work.

[Dark Chi]

I think I've figured out why Mr Duke has left this thread.I think its because he is a Christian?Nothing wrong with that,it just messes with the body mind and spirit concept.

If he is then I understand,but it won't help you to further on your PM progress,I've seen it happen again and again.....

[Faruq]

I think I've figured out why Mr Duke has left this thread.I think its because he is a Christian?Nothing wrong with that,it just messes with the body mind and spirit concept.

If he is then I understand,but it won't help you to further on your PM progress,I've seen it happen again and again.....

So you have to be Taoist to really master PM?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Opened as long as you guys behave ;)

[Xian]

I think I've figured out why Mr Duke has left this thread.I think its because he is a Christian?Nothing wrong with that,it just messes with the body mind and spirit concept.

If he is then I understand,but it won't help you to further on your PM progress,I've seen it happen again and again.....

Maybe he is just spending his free time with training. A oppourtunity which one might should take ;)


Kind regards,
Xian

[Faruq]

Maybe he is just spending his free time with training. A oppourtunity which one might should take ;)


Kind regards,
Xian

Well, Alex is a real cool guy. He knows Hakka, Cantonese and Mandarin. He knows SPM, and now is learning Pak Mei Pai. He's a practitioner of TCM, so he's always busy, I'm sure.

[ChukaSifu2]

I just met Sifu Simon Lui this past weekend. Very nice and very informative gentleman. I had the pleasure of having talked about their shock power him and with one of his students that participated in our seminar.
He came down for our Chuka SPM Sam Bo Gin seminar.

[warkid]

Hey Chuka Sifu, thanks for having us. I look forward to seeing you and your school in future meetings. I have continued practicing the sam bo jin as best I can. I would love some feed back sometime. Peace

[ChukaSifu2]

Hey Chuka Sifu, thanks for having us. I look forward to seeing you and your school in future meetings. I have continued practicing the sam bo jin as best I can. I would love some feed back sometime. Peace

Absolutely, anytime you need any additional input I will be glad to help you.

[DuKe1973]

So you have to be Taoist to really master PM?

I have not actually left the forum. It is called working in hospitals and clinics full-time, fatherhood, and kung fu practice which occupies my time to check these forums. Yes, I am a Christian and I do not believe that is relevant to whether or not one progresses in Pak Mei or my absence on the thread. In ancient times, Dao refers to spiritual path to enlightenment. In my case it is Christianity. Let's not confuse the meaning of a Daoist and a Shaman.

[DuKe1973]

Taoism/Daoism refers to utilizing the philosophy of yin and yang from non physical to physical. I am a Chinese medicine doctor and I use the philosophy often... I've only read the last update so I'll have to back track threads, I'll read more during my break time throughout the week and post responses when time allows.

[DuKe1973]

Of course every clan will have their own distinct theory. You mention 3 of your sifus are directly from CLC hai mai ar? Sifu Ng Yiu is also a direct disciple from CLC as well as one of the earliest. I am just representing the system as I was taught.
BaK Mei has a very distinct signature and Lung Ying has it's own as well. Both Good but in different ways. They have more of a slanted pek chuei and a shoving with a slight rise in their lom da.
I'm not as ignorant as you may think. Chiro philosophy is different than TCM, and the fact of the matter is Qi is about guided breathe and intent. Intent guides the Qi and structure/body assists it. This is where yin and yang come into play. The imaterial and material in unison.
Even if you were CLC, I may not agree with everything one preeches.
I just learn and go out to test it out.
I love combat, and am always willing to test it out.
Use what works for you and preech to your followers.





Soulfist, do you really think there is that much difference, considering the general variations within Pak Mei. I don't. Chow Fook has more ferocity from his Loong Ying, in my humble opinion.

Have you seen this video? It says Dragon style, but it is the Pak Mei Ying Jau Lin Que form, the exchange form from Loong Ying. Notice his waist movement...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEL_GpG15dg

and this video, again, look at the belly and waist: http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/images/stories/clips/Pakmei_ging.mpeg

I find both of those to be pretty impressive videos. Both clearly show the collapsing belly and rising extension that characterise the "swallow/spit" "rise/fall' character of Pak Mei.

And since we're getting the Pak Mei folks together, I think its important to mention that HK, Gunagzhou & Vietnam and Futsan all have slightly different evolutions.

Futsan evolved with a lot of additions from the 5th, 6th and onward generations, Guangzhou has more Loong Ying in it, and it kind of froze at the end of WWII when the masters left and the rest were chased underground by the Red Guard, and HK evolved and evolved until Grandmaster Died, adding new bits and developing a codification for the style. That's my take at least.

As for punching bags....

We punch big hand held crash bags, not swinging heavy bags. Just convenience, nothing more.

Having been on the receiving end of perhaps 100,000 punches over the years I can tell you some things about Pak Mei punching, lets look at Sut Choi for simplicity.

You can hit and drive, sure, try to sink your fist in to the wrist if you like, and yea, works a charm. But a well executed sut choi with faat ging, with half a fist of penetration, can go right through the bag and hurt me. Standard issue of blunt powerful power or sharp penetrating shock...

Additionally, rolling the shoulders a bit like that protects your jaw, and helps you cover up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This here:


I just learn and go out to test it out.
I love combat, and am always willing to test it out.
Use what works for you and preech to your followers.


Is WHAT MA is all about !!!

Well said *golf clap*

[DuKe1973]

Well, Alex is a real cool guy. He knows Hakka, Cantonese and Mandarin. He knows SPM, and now is learning Pak Mei Pai. He's a practitioner of TCM, so he's always busy, I'm sure.

You nailed it Xian. I am quite busy. My wife is like the movie Ip Man, the more I do it, the more she shakes her head. Fatherhood, being a husband, a son, a working man, and a kung fu man is quite the task.... I am also teaching a select 5 students free of charge in my spare time because they have proven talent and dedication. My motto is quite different, "You may have 10,000 ounces of gold or good character, but I will not teach if you are not skillful to follow." Life is too short to teach 100 rabbits. I need teach only a few select lions and then see what sprouts from there......

[DuKe1973]

Mr Duke added a nice new video of himself whipping through Ying Jow Kuen (I don't have access to youtube here, so I'm trying to remember the name of the form from memory) to his channel. Mr Duke's a baaaaaaad man. It's real cool that he's a cool person too, and him and his Sifu have opened Pak Mei up to the public. Hats off to you Mr Duke!


Thank you sir. It is public yes. Grasp what you can, take what you like, disgard what you don't, enjoy as you please. Questions on variations of forms, just email me or look me up on Facebook under Alex Do.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Not for ego, but for the passion of it."

[DuKe1973]

I think this is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-v-rfD-2n4

Thanks for posting my link. Very kind of you. Some schools add a gwa cheui in the front cell, but ours doesn't (could always add it). Also on backwards dragon steps the chuen and pak jeung can be interchangeable. It's whether you want to block out or in. I filmed both ways for the public see.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for posting my link. Very kind of you. Some schools add a gwa cheui in the front cell, but ours doesn't (could always add it). Also on backwards dragon steps the chuen and pak jeung can be interchangeable. It's whether you want to block out or in. I filmed both ways for the public see.

Question for you Alex:
With your background in southern systems, what are the difference and similarities between what you've studied ( Jook Lum SPM and Pak Mei) and why do you think that is?

[DuKe1973]

Mr Faruq
It is all within,however these days all you have to do is do a few YT clips and hey! you can be a Grand Master LOL

Or write critisism about lol.
I am guilty of this as well... :D

[DuKe1973]

Where are my manners how about Mr Duke or you Mr Yum Cha?

care to explain the Body,Mind and spirit? your take on it of course.

Study the philoshy of Jing-Qi-Shen (Jing-Hei-Sun).
"Jing is like the wax and wick, which are the substantial parts of the candle. They are made of material (yin), which is essentially condensed energy. The flame of the lit candle is likened to Yang-Qi, for this is the energetic activity of the candle, which eventually results in the burning out of the candle. The radiance given off by the flaming candle is Shen. The larger the candle and the better the quality of the wax and wick, the steadier will be its flame and the longer the candle will last. The greater and steadier the flame, the steadier the light given off and the greater the light."

My words would be "Culitvate your jing by abiding a healthy lifestyle according to nature and guide not too much yet not too little of your clear breath to keep your flame steady."

If you feel ill, become injured or your practice serves no result it simply is not the WAY/Dao.

[DuKe1973]

Keep in mind many things in life may have Jing and Qi, but only living beings have Shen. For example in Feng Shui, we look at balancing jing to enhance the flow of the qi in objects in space; in TCM we look at balancing the Shen at the same time influencing the motion or state of Qi to bring it back into harmony. This is using yin yang.
If you are more focused on culitivation techniques for the body and sticking to the ways of Bak Mei Dou Yun himself, then study Damo's bone-marrow classic, golden bell, & Hua Tuo's 5 frolics. There is many new ones that have evolved, but those were the ones of his time that he practiced. (So I've been told....)

I won't lie, I do not practice these daily, but just sharing the knowledge if deemed as knowledge.

[DuKe1973]

Mr Duke out of my curiosity which style out of all the many styles you have study/studying do you prefer?

I have studied my family's style, Jook Lum Mantis, Taiji/xing yi, Bak Mei, and have scratched the surface of Wing Chun, Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut (Currently in the works). Honestly, they all have their trademarks. I don't believe it is coincidence that each offers it's unique arsinal and tactic.

It was not intended to master the dao in one lifetime, so it takes many lives to transmit essence. "No one style is the universal key, it's up to us to see the individual colors come together to make the rainbow. Eventually when you grasp the primary colors, you'll know that mixing and matching creates shades that you've already probably seen. I'll be lucky to even see the essence of one color."

[DuKe1973]

Hey dude :)
I like that clip you posted of the form, nice, smooth and fluid with "ging".
As for the short power demo clips.
Meh...
I don't think its possible to show short power in LIGHT sparring, kind of self-defeating know what I mean?
The live demo was fine.
How's training going?

That classic clip was quite good.
One extra strike than I do, but good demo.
Nice to meet you as well.

I apologize if I write out of order, I've been randomly clicking threads.

[DuKe1973]

Ahhh from CBL 5/6th Generation Thank you

Classic sayings that all Bak Mei practitioners should know.
Good post.

[DuKe1973]

Dark Chi is not Lee Chun Pai.

No evil. It's just like a scorpian, deadly if taunted.

[Golden Arms]

No evil. It's just like a scorpian, deadly if taunted.

Duke1973,

What are you saying here? I am not sure I understand clearly your intent.