None kickboxing kung fu sparring

[Hardwork108]

None "Glorified Kickboxing" kung fu sparring:

Have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC6NPQfZ2Lo&feature=related


This looks like kung fu as opposed to pseudo-kung fu!



.

[MightyB]

Have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC6NPQfZ2Lo&feature=related
.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chiu/files/2011/07/2-golf-tee.jpg

Glorified Kickboxers will understand this pic. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Actually Not a bad clip. Better than most of the crappy u post.

[Hardwork108]

Actually Not a bad clip. Better than most of the crappy u post.

Which "crappy" videos are you referring to?

[Hardwork108]

http://www.chicagonow.com/chiu/files/2011/07/2-golf-tee.jpg

Glorified Kickboxers will understand this pic. :)

Of course Glorified Kickboxers will understand this pic. After all, the golf ball is a reference to the size of their brains....LOL!

[MightyB]

I thought it was pretty good too - just would've liked to see him protect his head a bit more. Could be a sign of extreme confidence or arrogance - either way, it's a good way to eat a punch if you're not careful.

[SimonM]

If his sparring partner would have done something than throw half-hearted kicks it might have been more interesting.

I have to say though, I'd be reluctant to punch a Buddhist monk too. :p

[MightyB]

watched it again - overall it's a pretty good example of kung fu fighting - one thing that gets lost in a lot of traditional schools is how to occupy and dominate your opponent's space. Control the space, control his balance, win the fight. I often say that mantis to be effective, has to fight in a two to three palm length distance (measuring from the base of the palm to the extended finger tips). Any further out and you better be good at kickboxing or TKD - and at that range, you need speed and luck because it's 50/50 and I'm neither lucky or fast... anyway - like I said, I would have liked to see him protect his head a bit more, but that could just be his confidence in dealing with a reporter - but the video is a good example of space/balance domination using traditional techniques.

[Hardwork108]

If his sparring partner would have done something than throw half-hearted kicks it might have been more interesting.
Have a look at the fight clips at the end of the video. I don't think that his opponent had any chance to throw anything then....LOL!


I have to say though, I'd be reluctant to punch a Buddhist monk too. :p

You are wise, I mean why risk getting yourself hurt unnecessarily?

[SimonM]

I would have liked to see him protect his head a bit more, but that could just be his confidence in dealing with a reporter - but the video is a good example of space/balance domination using traditional techniques.

Agreed. It is very easy to look awesome when there is a massive skill variance between the parties sparring.

That's why I'd have liked to see the wuseng spar somebody with some skill. He does clearly have skill, but featuring this isn't any different than featuring any other expert of any other MA beating up a cable news-provided tomato can.



You are wise, I mean why risk getting yourself hurt unnecessarily?

You'll note I didn't specify which order of Buddhist monk.

I've got a thing about hitting pacifists, try not to do it regardless of their prowess.

[Hardwork108]

watched it again - overall it's a pretty good example of kung fu fighting

You are welcome!


- one thing that gets lost in a lot of traditional schools is how to occupy and dominate your opponent's space.
Not really. It gets lost in the "Mcdojos" that claim to teach kung fu, not to mention in many of the Kung fu franchises that are basically money making operations.

The genuine Traditional Schools that I know teach the domination of the opponent's space, together with the concept of NOT going back! Which seems to be a little strange to the "functional sparring" masters of today.



Control the space, control his balance, win the fight. I often say that mantis to be effective, has to fight in a two to three palm length distance (measuring from the base of the palm to the extended finger tips). Any further out and you better be good at kickboxing or TKD - and at that range, you need speed and luck because it's 50/50 and I'm neither lucky or fast...

If Mantis is like any other TCMA, then it will be balanced as well. That means it will have provisions, and be able to fight short, medium and LONG range.

Even Wing Chun, that is regarded as a "short range" style has long range techniques on one hand and even ground techniques on the other, as a part of its traditional curriculum (I am not talking about McWing Chun or franchise Wing Chun either!).



anyway - like I said, I would have liked to see him protect his head a bit more, but that could just be his confidence in dealing with a reporter - but the video is a good example of space/balance domination using traditional techniques.

See, not a single Glorified Kickboxing technique! So, don't buy the cr@p certain people constantly peddle nowadays to the uninititated. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Agreed. It is very easy to look awesome when there is a massive skill variance between the parties sparring.

That's why I'd have liked to see the wuseng spar somebody with some skill. He does clearly have skill, but featuring this isn't any different than featuring any other expert of any other MA beating up a cable news-provided tomato can.

Well, perhaps we can send someone from this forum to spar with him? LOL!




You'll note I didn't specify which order of Buddhist monk.

I've got a thing about hitting pacifists, try not to do it regardless of their prowess.
Again, your instinct to survive and live another day, will overide your other reasons for not wanting to fight Buddhist monks. I am hoping....:D

[SimonM]

Again, your instinct to survive and live another day, will overide your other reasons for not wanting to fight Buddhist monks. I am hoping....:D

Actually, having met Shaolin monks, talked with them, and felt their strength when they performed tui na on me (long story) I've got to say two things:

1) I have a great deal of respect for them. I really want to stress this because I'm trying very hard to explain to you the deficiencies in the clip without deriding the people involved, who I expect do have very real skills.

2) I'd probably enjoy crossing hands with one, notwithstanding the pacifism thing.

Regardless of the difference in our skill level, I doubt I would have anything to fear from a Shaolin monk - one thing that I am confident, from personal experience, that they have is masterful self-control. I don't expect a Shaolin monk would deliberately set out to cause me lasting harm in a friendly match.

Considering point 1, if I ever did have the privilege of sparring with a wuseng I can assure you the match would be friendly.

[Ray Pina]

I would say the huge golf ball is a reference to the one guy pretty much just standing there half heartedly in range. I usually use the big, underhanded soft ball analogy myself.

With that said, that monk has skill and knowledge. Great closing technique. Great use of his whole body to control the other.

However, knocking around some guy just standing there is still quite aways from being competent against another skilled, confident player. Which he could be. I would love to see it. Though I understand he's a monk... but that level of sparring (by both people) should take place at the end every single class. Or almost every class.

Not sparring should be the exception not the rule. And it shouldn't take deep archive searches to produce something. Again, every Kung Fu player hear should be able to produce similar footage from their smart phone after tonight's class.

When that happens. Kung Fu will resurrect itself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys know this was for a documentary right?

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys know this was for a documentary right?

obviously - seems to be a great example of "let the Wookie win"...

frankly, I don't know of any TCMA teacher in my experience that taught u to fight w ur hands down at ur sides and leading w ur face when u enter an opponent's range...

I mean, the guy has some ok skills, and he certainly does demonstrate some "classical" TCMA stuff, but it's against a barely resisting partner, and it's just another example of when u actually do apply a technique correctly, it looks like how someone from another system applies it;

[bawang]

i admire shi dejians and his students dedication and faith in buddhism, at least they semi spar unlike form king shi deyang

[David Jamieson]

obviously - seems to be a great example of "let the Wookie win"...

frankly, I don't know of any TCMA teacher in my experience that taught u to fight w ur hands down at ur sides and leading w ur face when u enter an opponent's range...

I mean, the guy has some ok skills, and he certainly does demonstrate some "classical" TCMA stuff, but it's against a barely resisting partner, and it's just another example of when u actually do apply a technique correctly, it looks like how someone from another system applies it;

20 points for handling the correct correctly.

Nice piece of film, but not sparring so much as app demonstration and yes, there was much that was somewhat questionable, such as leaving the head so exposed and the hands down.

[bawang]

most shaolin people have that hands down problem. its a shame

actually most kung fu people have that problem

[David Jamieson]

most shaolin people have that hands down problem. its a shame

actually most kung fu people have that problem

Never learned that way.
Keep ya hands ep!
Keep ya hands ep!

Always an engarde stance.

I think this is a competitive wushu problem crossover.

[bawang]

of course its a wushu problem man. if you remember, the only reason shaolin temple got renovated was because of the 1980s jet li movie.

most of these monks were teenagers who saw the movie.

also the reason why a lot of monks left the temple and try to make movies.

[David Jamieson]

of course its a wushu problem man. if you remember, the only reason shaolin temple got renovated was because of the 1980s jet li movie.

most of these monks were teenagers who saw the movie.

well, I think it revived the popularity and indeed poured money and people into the temple.

Perhaps that revival wasn't what was desired, but maybe it is desire that causes this problem and degradation?

what a concept? Buddhist Kung Fu suffers because of human desire to fly through the air like an effin monkey.

that is an awesome thought.

hang on while I digest it....


mmmmmmm flying monkey desire of shaolin in turn destroys shaolin...

[bawang]

this is why i feel deeply sad whenever i see an ex monk on tv with woman hairs and lip gloss.

[David Jamieson]

The actual Beacon of Shaolin shines brightest from the heart and mind of an individual.

the geographical temple isn't actually necessary to the existence of Shaolin philosophy, way or the treasures.

It's nice to have and it is also a bane by it's very existence.

That's duality for ya.

I'd laugh before I cried. :D

[Lucas]

First time I ever spar I had my hands down. I got KO. Learned my lesson that day. Demo clip for sure. Yes demo of actual application as practiced in and out of form, but still a demo. You can tell because the guy in black had a huge reach advantage and did not throw one head shot. Idk if ur a monk, if you want to spar me, ill punch you in the face, unless you ask me not to, but then its not a true representation of fight skill...people hit you in the face in real life. I'm pretty sure they agree no real head shot. Non of the monks head shots actually connect with force.

[MightyB]

First time I ever spar I had my hands down. I got KO. Learned my lesson that day. Demo clip for sure. Yes demo of actual application as practiced in and out of form, but still a demo. You can tell because the guy in black had a huge reach advantage and did not throw one head shot. Idk if ur a monk, if you want to spar me, ill punch you in the face, unless you ask me not to, but then its not a true representation of fight skill...people hit you in the face in real life. I'm pretty sure they agree no real head shot. Non of the monks head shots actually connect with force.

When your hands were down, was your head like a golf ball on a tee? :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't even need to look at the monk,look at the "attacker" and see the tell-tale signs of someone that isn't in it to fight and of experience:
Lack of commitment
Hands in an awkward defensive position
Lack of agression
Inability to control himself
Etc, etc

[David Jamieson]

When your hands were down, was your head like a golf ball on a tee? :D

Dude! If you have to explain it, it's not funny anymore!

Rule #7 of comedy man.

[Lucas]

When your hands were down, was your head like a golf ball on a tee? :D

it was like one of those gag oversized exploding powder golf balls on a tee two times too tall

[MightyB]

Dude! If you have to explain it, it's not funny anymore!

Rule #7 of comedy man.

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm100163850/how-be-funny-steve-allen-paperback-cover-art.jpg :)

----------

[Frost]

You don't even need to look at the monk,look at the "attacker" and see the tell-tale signs of someone that isn't in it to fight and of experience:
Lack of commitment
Hands in an awkward defensive position
Lack of agression
Inability to control himself
Etc, etc

how about the fact he didnt want to make contact and didnt want to get hit that should tell people something............

if this is what passes as sparring for HW108 it explains a lot

on a related note it is also a great advert for the use of protective gear in training, sparring without it leads to way too many bad habits as seen here

[Ray Pina]

on a related note it is also a great advert for the use of protective gear in training, sparring without it leads to way too many bad habits as seen here

Awesome point.

[taai gihk yahn]

Of course Glorified Kickboxers will understand this pic. After all, the golf ball is a reference to the size of their brains....LOL!
at least most Glorified Kickboxers know enough to keep their hands up and not lead w their faces...

[Lucas]

at least most Glorified Kickboxers know enough to keep their hands up and not lead w their faces...

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

:cool:

[MightyB]

You will all refer to me by the name... Betty. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1rjq5emKY&feature=related)

[lkfmdc]

this thread

http://media.egotvonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/train-wreck-1.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.uncoached.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ice-cream-girls-28.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.sexyhd.net/wallpaper-original/wallpapers/sexy-girl-and-ice-cream-82.jpg

[MightyB]

http://www.bullshido.net/images/potw/fatty-women-boxing.jpg

I got your none Kickboxing Kung fu sparring right here!!!

[Lucas]

Sanjuro Wins!!

[Dragonzbane76]

that does remind me of most WC I've seen. :p

[MightyB]

that does remind me of most WC I've seen. :p

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/3894208169_fec4076d67_o.jpg
----------

[SimonM]

http://www.bullshido.net/images/potw/fatty-women-boxing.jpg

I got your none Kickboxing Kung fu sparring right here!!!

What the? I don't even...

But, seriously, yeah, aware it's a documentary, previous comments regarding the fact that the partner for the monk just stood there sticking his chin out and occasionally half-heartedly throwing a kick, always at the same level, to set up the throw RNC'd the correct.

Again, doesn't mean Shaolin doesn't have skill. Just means this video doesn't show real sparring.

[Hardwork108]

I believe that some of you guys have missed (as usual) the point of the video.

The man used valid TCMA techniques in sparring (I believe that DJ referred to that fact, as well). He used them well! He had roots and stance!

Yes, he had his head "exposed", BUT did not get hit! And yes, the other guy was no good, but perhaps if he was good the monk:

A: Would NOT have pulled his techniques??????

B: Would have protected his head more????

In either case, I am sure that he would not have lost his stance and hopped around, out of roots, like a typical "I know 'kung gu' ", Glorified Kickboxer.

That is the point of the video. It was not a death match! :rolleyes:

[goju]

uh that still looked pretty kickboxy to me....

well more so like trips you would see in sanshou or judo than anything

if his hands up were up and he wasnt doing his little swaying thing it would look even more like kick boxing

[TenTigers]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins. :eek:

[TenTigers]

The man used valid TCMA techniques in sparring (I believe that DJ referred to that fact, as well). He used them well! He had roots and stance!

yer freakin blind...

[ginosifu]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins. :eek:

I am going to half to agree with TT here. Vid looked like crap. His attacker did squat, and he was moving too slow.

I here the argument "he was using kung fu techniques", but no it was bad.

ginosifu

[Yum Cha]

dang, I must be missing something. looked like crap to me. A "monk" doing techniques, leaving himself wide open, on a totally compliant "opponent," who basically just stood there.
So, is this a serious thread, or did I miss the sarcasm?
If it's serious...well...Dave Ross wins. :eek:

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

[Hardwork108]

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

Good points.

[taai gihk yahn]

I believe that some of you guys have missed (as usual) the point of the video.
the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good; nothing more;


The man used valid TCMA techniques in sparring (I believe that DJ referred to that fact, as well).
yes, this is true, a lot of the techniques were "classical"


He used them well!
because his opponent allowed him to!


He had roots and stance!
most of the time he was "dancing" around - in a manner pretty analagous to what kickboxer's do...


Yes, he had his head "exposed", BUT did not get hit!
because the other guy wasn't trying to hit him! Can you really not be aware of that?


And yes, the other guy was no good, but perhaps if he was good the monk:
A: Would NOT have pulled his techniques??????
B: Would have protected his head more????
perhaps, but we can't know that since the other guy wasn't doing anything that would necessitate it; so it's conjecture at best;


In either case, I am sure that he would not have lost his stance and hopped around, out of roots, like a typical "I know 'kung gu' ", Glorified Kickboxer.
um, he was "hopping around" most of the time - he was constantly in motion, there was no "root" when he was outside of range (I mean, u understand "root" necessarily requires that the feet not be moving, right?)


That is the point of the video. It was not a death match! :rolleyes:
no, again, the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good;


The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.
yes, he did have some varied footwork patterns (or wait - was it stance and root?) - however, there were a few problems w his footwork; first off, he didn't USE the footwork to set up anything: no matter what he did, the opponent just stood there, waiting to be attacked - meaning that, while the monk shifted around outside of range, we have no idea if he knew how to TIME his footwork off of his opponent's reactions or to use it to evade his opponent's attacks - second, he danced around outside, but when he entered, it was pretty much always straight in, hands down, head exposed - sometimes he even led in w his head, other times he had this little backwards lean thing he did - neither all that effective, unless your opponent just stands there and lets u come in, which is what happened here;


As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...
um, exsqueeze me? outside of range "they go down"? u'r kidding, right?


If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...
here's a handy guide to keeping ur hands up: do it, all the time, like, always;


Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic.
it is if u can utilize it against someone who falls for it; but guess what: against a seasoned fighter it can actually be a disadvantage because a) sooner or later u will get timed when u switch stances, and u r going to get attacked when u do; b) ur single sided stanced opponent will always be at his optimal capacity to move, deliver power shots, etc., because he has trained his delivery system exclusively on one side; the stance-switcher will be split btw the two sides, and his brain has to switch gears every time to favor whatever he has optimized on a given side, which will not be the same on each; meaning that there will not be the same level of familiarity w his function as the single-stanced guy (trust me, this has to do with how the brain is programmed in terms of it's ability to engage in bilateral activity)


His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.
some would call this lack of economy of movement; the other thing is that when u r always in movement, it's actually easier to get timed and hit;


Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.
no, it was all about the monk looking good;

[taai gihk yahn]

He had roots and stance!


The best of this demo was the movement and the footwork.
...it was all about footwork, IMHO.


Good points.

I get it - today is Opposite Day, right?

[ginosifu]

The best of this demo was the movement and body positioning, the footwork.

As for keeping the hands up, yea, boxing 101, but to my mind your hands should be where they need to be. Outside of range, they go down, crossing the line, they go where the attacks come from, etc...

If the hands are trapping, jamming and locking, they won't be up on the side of your head. Dirty boxing, they better be...

Also, the Monk seldomly showed a right or left aspect consistently, same with Patterson's Hsing-I fighters, to some extent... This is strategic as well as stylistic. His body was always moving, not setting and going, less inertia to overcome, more streamlined and direct movement, less to focus on.

Forget the hands, it was all about footwork, IMHO.

Hardwork / Yum Cha;

The monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him I would have applauded.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

hardwork / yum cha;

the monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him i would have applauded.

Ginosifu

qft +100
...
and what's more, the more pressure, the less what he did would look like 'kung fu technique", because under pressure, simplicity reigns in terms of effectiveness, so a ot of the "stylistic" stuff won't look as such (unless u do i chuan, I guess, lol); not to say that he couldn't achieve skill under pressure w TCMA training, but when the sh1t hits the fan, what works will look the same across the board...

[Hardwork108]

I get it - today is Opposite Day, right?

You can have solid roots and stance, together with mobile foot work. I would say that this aspect of the TCMAs is rather misunderstood by the cross training fraternity...;)

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork / Yum Cha;

The monk looks he has been training and has some skills under his belt. However, the partner was doing nothing aggressively or realistically. So any one can go in there and show or demonstrate some of their tech's cuz the guy was moving so slow.

The real trick is to be able to express all of that monk stuff while the attacker was really going after him with fast / aggressive fighting.

I understand your point about showing kung fu tech's but they are not valid without the stress of reality type attacker on his ass and pressing him with hardcore fighting moves! Now if he was able to pull them off with his attacker guy really going after him I would have applauded.

ginosifu

I agree, and my main point was to show real kung fu in sparring context. Of course, it was not a serious fight, but I was attempting to show a TCMA-ist sparring in the TCMA way. I still believe that the monk would not have changed his tactic to hopping around, "a la" kickboxing, if the opposition turned out to be more resistant. :)

[Hardwork108]

the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good; nothing more;
Perhaps the monk deserved to look good?



yes, this is true, a lot of the techniques were "classical"
The reason I posted the video.



because his opponent allowed him to!
People usually win because the opponent "allows" them too. Having said that, I do understand the point you are trying to make, but then I posted the video to show the "classical" approach in a sparring context.

Incidentally, that is how I was taught to fight in two different TCMA schools. ;)



most of the time he was "dancing" around - in a manner pretty analagous to what kickboxer's do...
I disagree. One of the things that made his approach "classical" was his stance and roots.



because the other guy wasn't trying to hit him! Can you really not be aware of that?
Perhaps his superior skill put off the guy from even trying?

It is also possible that it was just demonstration sparring, even if on the realistic side?

Now, the first batch of clips the other guy did not show much intention. However, in the last few sparring clips, the opponent did not even seem to get a chance to do much....



perhaps, but we can't know that since the other guy wasn't doing anything that would necessitate it; so it's conjecture at best;
Yep, but from the little I saw, my money would be on the monk having some potent fighting abilities.



um, he was "hopping around" most of the time - he was constantly in motion, there was no "root" when he was outside of range (I mean, u understand "root" necessarily requires that the feet not be moving, right?)
Um, you can be rooted and mobile at the same time. ;)



no, again, the "point" of the video was to make the monk look good;

Well, I think we have gathered that, but I would say that the monk WAS good. I say that from the little I saw. This is of course subjective, but I don't want to go into "my subjectiveness is superior to yours", arena.

I would also like to add something as regards the monk having his head exposed. When I sparred with my Wing Chun sifu, sometimes his head would be "exposed", because he knew that no way in hell, I would be able to hit it.

There is also the possibility that the parties involved had agreed not to connect to the head.

Anyway, the point was that classical techniques can be used in sparring. That is how I spar. It is all in the training - the long root Vs the short root!;)

One might argue with the usual, why take the long root, instead of the short one, but then that is another discussion for another thread.

[B.Tunks]

Devil's advocate: dropping guard and regularly switching stances as deliberate tactics = Anderson Silva.

[Hardwork108]

Devil's advocate: dropping guard and regularly switching stances as deliberate tactics = Anderson Silva.

No IMPOSSIBLE!

Only the deadlyz MMA fighters have the ability to do that, any TCMA-ist trying that would get KO-ed if they tried.

Seriously speaking, EXCELLENT point. The monk was very confident and had abilities and what you say is perfectly plausible as a strategy.

Thank you again for your logical take. :)

[goju]

The problem still remains that the other guy wasnt putting any pressure on the monk

he was timid and wouldn't engage fully.That's what separates Silva from him.We have Anderson do that and have his opponents pressure him at the same time so its completely different ball park.

Now if that was the case with the monk and he still fought like that then there wouldn't be any dispute

[Hardwork108]

The problem still remains that the other guy wasnt putting any pressure on the monk

he was timid and wouldn't engage fully.That's what separates Silva from him.We have Anderson do that and have his opponents pressure him at the same time so its completely different ball park.

Now if that was the case with the monk and he still fought like that then there wouldn't be any dispute

One question goju. Based on what you saw in the video, would you accept to fight the monk in a no holds barred full contact bare knuckle fight?

[goju]

One question goju. Based on what you saw in the video, would you accept to fight the monk in a no holds barred full contact bare knuckle fight?

I've been diagnosed with epilepsy for a year now so no:p Unless the pay day is huge :D

If i was medically fit to go ,Sure i can always tap out if I'm being pummeled silly.

[goju]

bare in mind im not saying the monk cant fight like that im just saying there really nothing much to go on that he can.I would say the same thing about silva and his hands down style if all we had of him was lightly sparring a very timid partner

The sparring partner of the monk should have been going at this level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW9vvRerirI&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrCj6MsI1gc

[B.Tunks]

The problem still remains that the other guy wasnt putting any pressure on the monk

he was timid and wouldn't engage fully.That's what separates Silva from him.We have Anderson do that and have his opponents pressure him at the same time so its completely different ball park.

Now if that was the case with the monk and he still fought like that then there wouldn't be any dispute


Yeah, certainly not comparing him to Silva at all. Just saying that guard switching is a legitimate tactic and is successfully employed by certain individuals and that hands can also be dropped as required, despite the risk involved. I would also argue against the need to keep the hands up when clearly outside of striking range (or at least not both - in fact one dropped hand is the default guard for many sanshou fighters). Of course Silva drops them wherever and whenever he wants to though as he's a freak.

[Frost]

I agree, and my main point was to show real kung fu in sparring context. Of course, it was not a serious fight, but I was attempting to show a TCMA-ist sparring in the TCMA way. I still believe that the monk would not have changed his tactic to hopping around, "a la" kickboxing, if the opposition turned out to be more resistant. :)

your problem is that wasnt sparring it was demoing and you wont find a single clip of someone moving like that when getting hit hard.....and you know this because you have been looking for years

[Frost]

Devil's advocate: dropping guard and regularly switching stances as deliberate tactics = Anderson Silva.

lol silva is probably the best striker in the UFC he can do what he likes...see prince nazeem for what happens when someone trys the above against a better fighter

[Hardwork108]

your problem is that wasnt sparring it was demoing and you wont find a single clip of someone moving like that when getting hit hard.....and you know this because you have been looking for years

Video clip of Bajiquan, but it still looks like kung fu, as opposed to kickboxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related


Wing Chun vs Karate - This is in a ring setting, but you can still see the Wing Chun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo

The other fact you should keep in mind is that the sparring in my Wing Chun schools uses kung fu techniques. NO hopping around and throwing wild punchs. The roots have to be maintained and central theory has to be followed.

You fight the way you train. If most people turn their pseudo kung fu into kickboxing sparring, then that is their business!

[B.Tunks]

lol silva is probably the best striker in the UFC he can do what he likes...see prince nazeem for what happens when someone trys the above against a better fighter

Of course. I agree (hence me calling him a freak), but I put it as an example of the other end of the spectrum. Nothing's black and white. Until Machida got 'worked out', he was another example of successful unorthodoxy. As far as Naseem, I must admit in his early days he was one of my favourites. Again, once they worked him out - game over.

[B.Tunks]

Gotta say though, as much I hate to be fuelling the fire - many traditional Chinese styles don't use 'hands up' to protect the head as the default guard. In old times almost none did. The body was the primary target and considered the most deadly to attack. The introduction of the head as a primary target and the subsequent need for a higher guard became more widespread after the influence of western boxing and is only fairly recent (end of Qing, more so early republic).

For the record I also don't regard the original clip as sparring, though the very last section filmed indoors looks a lot closer, regardless of his partner's skill level.

[Frost]

Gotta say though, as much I hate to be fuelling the fire - many traditional Chinese styles don't use 'hands up' to protect the head as the default guard. In old times almost none did. The body was the primary target and considered the most deadly to attack. The introduction of the head as a primary target and the subsequent need for a higher guard became more widespread after the influence of western boxing and is only fairly recent (end of Qing, more so early republic).

For the record I also don't regard the original clip as sparring, though the very last section filmed indoors looks a lot closer, regardless of his partner's skill level.

It was the same for karate in the old days and even when they did point sparring…and them they allowed full contact to the head in competition in the 60’s and what happened? They found out the hard way head shots were very hard and boxers started cleaning up ad thus a higher guard was adopted

[SimonM]

The Baji clip actually is decent. It appears to have been an actual match, as opposed to a demo, however the absence of a guard on the head of both fighters, which was the biggest sticking point with your Shaolin video, is predicated by the obvious fact that head shots were excluded from the competition.

I know you didn't stay at your WC school for very long, and you probably didn't spar much, but have you BEEN hit in the head?

I'll tell you, if you enjoy your brain, you start keeping your hands up after your first solid shot to the head.

Still, some decent throws and sweeps - that's sort of an area of strength for Baji, and one of the reasons I remain interested in learning it.

[SimonM]

apparently he stayed 10 years with his sifu and was also a private student......

so im not going to be impressed by the clips when i get to see them then? :rolleyes:

He has also said recently that he only has 2 years of training.

[SimonM]

As for the WC vs. Karate clip,

It was just SAD. Neither fighter there put on a good show. The WC guy came in slapping. The Karate guy was unprepared for slaps and ran away.

Sad on both sides.

Just sad.

[Frost]

Well to quote his post to me (before it got deleted on his clearing the air thread) he said he trained for 10 years with him, and was a private student as well, which did puzzle we as I remember the whole I trained for 2 years was only an intermediate student and didn’t train the ground work of the system (but know its there) argument he has made over the years

If he has trained for 10 years and is still an intermediate student and hasn’t trained the ground part of his art it does make you wonder about his learning abilities, and if not well…………… lets not go there

Again all these clips he posts of sparring which others find so SAD…does again make one question the length of training he has had

PS thanks for the right up on the clips saves me watching them later on

[SimonM]

No problemo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For the last time.
It was a freaking demo, it was NOT sparring, it was a demo in a documentary.
Nothing more.
There is no way you can judge the fighting skill of the monk based on that crappy demo.

[Frost]

we made ronin mad..we finally did it!!!!!!:eek::eek:

[SimonM]

we made ronin mad..we finally did it!!!!!!:eek::eek:

A good man goes to war. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiB3SdlQ6sI)

[David Jamieson]

Keep it civil.

Resist the temptation to go on ad hominem rants.

that is all.

[Ray Pina]

I use multiple guards depending on how I feel about a situation. But one of them is a strong right lead with the back hand up at the chin for insurance blocking but the lead hand is in a fist at about the waist. I can address incoming kicks easily by intercepting the knee and I can strike incoming hand attacks from below, slipping either to inside or outside covers as I close ground.

When used in conjunction with the elbow/shoulder and a tucked chin, the back hand blocking has been enough. I've never been KOed. Though I've been TKOed:)

[Hardwork108]

Well to quote his post to me (before it got deleted on his clearing the air thread) he said he trained for 10 years with him, and was a private student as well, which did puzzle we as I remember the whole I trained for 2 years was only an intermediate student and didn’t train the ground work of the system (but know its there) argument he has made over the years

If he has trained for 10 years and is still an intermediate student and hasn’t trained the ground part of his art it does make you wonder about his learning abilities, and if not well…………… lets not go there

Again all these clips he posts of sparring which others find so SAD…does again make one question the length of training he has had

PS thanks for the right up on the clips saves me watching them later on

I hope that you read my response to this before it was deleted. :rolleyes:

I am not sure why it was deleted, but there we go....

[bawang]

traditional non kickboxing sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skP58AJywhw&feature=relmfu

[Lucas]

traditional non kickboxing sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skP58AJywhw&feature=relmfu

wwhhhyyy???!!!???

[pazman]

wwhhhyyy???!!!???

That is what we will be doing when we are fighting for Bawang's silver pieces.:cool:

Prepare yourself.

[Dragonzbane76]

It's wrestling set to some indian tantric music. :confused:

[Lucas]

I scare....

[lkfmdc]

I scare....

yu no trong

[mjw]

It was very one sided but a decent demonstration

[Hardwork108]

traditional non kickboxing sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skP58AJywhw&feature=relmfu

Oh boy, as if our "cross training is the solution" fraternity was not confused enough, you come along and post that!

I mean all of these people are going to have sleepless nights, while passing the long days looking for Greek Wrestling schools, because "you will never know when your attacker in the street might attack you by splashing you with oil and then man-handling you to the ground - yes, yes, we must train for that eventuality!" LOL! :D

[Hardwork108]

It was very one sided but a decent demonstration

Thank you! :)