Taiwan Kung Fu

[JamesC]

This may be a stupid question, but i'm gonna ask it anyway. :D

Assuming that most styles of kung fu came from mainland China, are there records of any styles that are more "native" to Taiwan? Or village styles, perhaps?

Also, what was the state of kung fu in Taiwan pre-Communist takeover of China?

[lkfmdc]

I'd have to dig up Smith's books, but he relates which styles were brought over by the KMT crew and which were NATIVE to Taiwan

Taiwan has always had close ties to Fukien, so the "native styles" may be Fukien transplants or influenced

[JamesC]

I'd have to dig up Smith's books, but he relates which styles were brought over by the KMT crew and which were NATIVE to Taiwan

Taiwan has always had close ties to Fukien, so the "native styles" may be Fukien transplants or influenced

Thanks for the reply Mr. Ross. Who exactly is the author?

I do a lot of reading, and since martial arts is something i'm interested in, i'd like to get some good(credible) books on the history of Chinese martial arts.

[lkfmdc]

Robert Smith is who I am talking about

[SPJ]

southern shaolin from fu jian shaolin.

all kinds of crane and tiger were popular.

tiger boxing was used to fight the french during sino franco war.

--

Japan occupation period

karate, kendo, aikido, judo etc were popular.

practice of CMA was somewhat underground or not publicly.

--

[Faruq]

Still no links to the Taiwan blood bath? Even on a Taiwan Kung Fu thread? I know there's a Chinese version of youtube (isn't it like yukuu.com or something?), but even if I go there I won't know how to type "Taiwan Blood Bath Footage" in Chinese so I can search for the footage. Or even some articles...er, well no since they'd be in Chinese. I am disappointed....

[GeneChing]

Read The Treasures of Taiwan: The Rich Martial Legacy of an Island of Controversy By Gigi Oh (with Gene Ching) - 2003 March/April (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=317). This was the first in a series of articles we did featuring Taiwan masters and styles that ran through most of 2003.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pXdA8_6bFg

Taiwan 1964 (1 of 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5XMIQrvinM

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SijKntA8pdw

[SPJ]

Read The Treasures of Taiwan: The Rich Martial Legacy of an Island of Controversy By Gigi Oh (with Gene Ching) - 2003 March/April (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=317). This was the first in a series of articles we did featuring Taiwan masters and styles that ran through most of 2003.

great articles.

I read them on barnes & nobles.

like them much.

subsequently I subscribed to Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine

and signed on this board as member since Feb, 2004.

:cool:

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SijKntA8pdw

I think if i would have seen that dude in Golden Gate park doing that he might get jumped by others at the park....Hom Sup Low.

[bawang]

thats taizu crane mixed style from taiwan. unlike choy lee fut it actually has legitimate origin and traditions.

if that guy did that at golden gate i would prostate myself and beg to be his student.

[hskwarrior]

thats taizu crane mixed style from taiwan. unlike choy lee fut it actually has legitimate origin and traditions.

if that guy did that at golden gate i would prostate myself and beg to be his student.

Sucks for CLF huh? I practice Hung Sing Kuen. we have lots of legitimate origins and traditions....unlike whatever you practice.



if that guy did that at golden gate i would prostate myself and beg to be his student.

TMI dude....TMI!!!

[bawang]

are you challenging meÉ

[hskwarrior]

No, i don't like to beat up your kind......sorry. I have morals and high standards.

[bawang]

what is that supposed to mean? you have something against black people?

[hskwarrior]

what is that supposed to mean? you have something against black people?

No, the black guy is your OTHER personality. He is a Black Isrealite. Your other half is an Edomite. you are at war with yourself

[bawang]

"village" style southern taizu boxing from "kung fu village"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNFgVhlvYUU

[CYMac]

This may be a stupid question, but i'm gonna ask it anyway. :D

Assuming that most styles of kung fu came from mainland China, are there records of any styles that are more "native" to Taiwan? Or village styles, perhaps?

Also, what was the state of kung fu in Taiwan pre-Communist takeover of China?

Yes there is, search for Five Clow Golden Eagle fist and you will find it. That is a taiwan originated martial art lineage. 五爪金鷹門. The stuff there is purely from taiwan and here is a video of me doing a double dao of the lineage's form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KJ5bNyjYPg

[Faruq]

For Chissakes! Is there no one on this God forsaken forum who'll give me the Chinese characters for "Taiwanese Blood Bath" so I can go search for footage on yukoo???
"The training was designed to 4 of my students to fight in the full contact tournament in Taiwan, which is bare knuckle. The rules in Taiwan were simple, you could use ground work, low kicks, take downs, etc. I had approximately 3 years to produce winners. I taught them a type of iron hand that required boiling in medicine; being able to fight full contact with just a mouth guard and a cup. They were celibate for the period of training, (or supposed to be). They could run 5 miles or more each day and do knuckle push-ups on gravel ﾖ anything. I taught them body conditioning so they could take a punch and how to deal with strikes anywhere on their body. The rules used in Taiwan were simple and few at that time. An example of the first time, held two fighters were killed. Some papers in Asia billed it as the Taiwanese blood bath...."

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=16

[ShaolinDan]

Yes there is, search for Five Clow Golden Eagle fist and you will find it. That is a taiwan originated martial art lineage. 五爪金鷹門. The stuff there is purely from taiwan and here is a video of me doing a double dao of the lineage's form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KJ5bNyjYPg

Ah hah! So this is the Southern Eagle Claw Style that no one seems to know anything about. Thanks. :)

[Lucas]

faruq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwqI3WobyYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3c6sBJShj4

?

[kfman5F]

Try Google translator.

[SPJ]

bathe in blood

yu xue 浴血

etc etc.

--

[Minghequan]

Anybody have a copy of this article they can share???


The Treasures of Taiwan: The Rich Martial Legacy of an Island of Controversy By Gigi Oh (with Gene Ching)

[Faruq]

faruq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwqI3WobyYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3c6sBJShj4

?

Yeah, the 28 second clip looks more like it than the second clip; but there's only 28 seconds of it. The second clip looks a lot less intense than the first. Thanks Lucas.

[JamesC]

Still no links to the Taiwan blood bath? Even on a Taiwan Kung Fu thread? I know there's a Chinese version of youtube (isn't it like yukuu.com or something?), but even if I go there I won't know how to type "Taiwan Blood Bath Footage" in Chinese so I can search for the footage. Or even some articles...er, well no since they'd be in Chinese. I am disappointed....

This doesn't look like a question to me. Dramatic, much? :rolleyes:

[Faruq]

This doesn't look like a question to me. Dramatic, much? :rolleyes:

Yes, dramatic. Much. I was making a lot out of it, but I really would like the characters so I can do a search if no Chinese speakers here provide any links. Maybe I'd be better off searching the "1986 Kuoshu Tournament" title of the :28 youtube clip if I could get a Chinese translation. Looking back I indirectly suggested someone provide a link in a few threads, but never directly asked. And google translator sucks. Everytime I use that thing I end up more confused than I was with the actual Chinese! (Ok, I'm exaggerating again, but those google translations are usually quite confusing)

[GeneChing]

Anybody have a copy of this article they can share???

The Treasures of Taiwan: The Rich Martial Legacy of an Island of Controversy By Gigi Oh (with Gene Ching)
Buy the back issue. (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kf-200115.html) Help support the forum here. :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

"1986 Kuoshu Tournament"

I dont speak either so thats what i ended up doing...but as you can see it produced very little results :(

id be interested in seeing some longer footage too. those highlight reels have to come from some more in depth filming, i wish it was available...

[Faruq]

Did you try youku.com, Lucas? I wonder who made the highlight reel? In Taiwan the kung fu seems to have been the real deal!

[Jimbo]

faruq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwqI3WobyYk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3c6sBJShj4

?

Lucas,
The first clip actually looks like it's from China, not Taiwan. The second clip is from Taiwan.

Although I lived in Taiwan and spoke Mandarin fairly well, I've lost some of it since I left almost 20 years ago. And my reading was once okay but never great and now that's downhill too, so I wouldn't be able to navigate youku(?) or whatever, either. The one I remember clearly as being labeled the "Bloodbath in Taiwan" was the 1986 international kuo shu championship in Taiwan. I was there, and it was brutal, and there has been footage of it on youtube, but I haven't found a lot of it. I doubt you'll find it under "bloodbath in Taiwan."

I haven't seen some of the more so-called "dramatic" fights that I remember seeing in those tournaments on youtube yet. That doesn't mean they aren't on youtube or wherever, somewhere out there.

[Faruq]

What do you suggest we search under?

[Jimbo]

I tried "1980s Taiwan full-contact", "full-contact kung fu", 1986 Taiwan kuo shu championship, etc. I'm kind of a dinosaur when it comes to computers, so I'll have to apologize if my net-fu isn't up to snuff.

[Faruq]

I tried "1980s Taiwan full-contact", "full-contact kung fu", 1986 Taiwan kuo shu championship, etc. I'm kind of a dinosaur when it comes to computers, so I'll have to apologize if my net-fu isn't up to snuff.

Actually, I think those highlights are from the 1986 Chengdu Sichuan Lei Tai Championships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwlDwJoqbiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YM4vyg_yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIOOKU6sGbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwqI3WobyYk

Maybe I need the Chinese characters to search for that on youku. But if this is the Chengdu Lei Tai, how sick must the Taiwan Blood Bath have been!!!!

[brianlkennedy]

My wife and I's book, Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey, has an entire chapter on the history of Taiwanese martial arts. It covers the situation in Taiwan starting with the late Ming (Japanese/Chinese pirate folks like Koxinga) on to such modern day Taiwanese martial artists as Andy Wang and Liu Laoshi.

As to Smith's books---not to speak ill of the recently departed---but Smith's view of Taiwanese martial arts was "less than accurate". It is not his fault, it simply was who he was and the time he was there. He was white, US military, with no Taiwanese family contacts, who lived in Taiwan a short period of time, and that short period of time was right at the start of the White Terror Period, he knew nothing about the history of the island of Taiwan----all of which adds up to a very distorted view of things. In a strange but very true way, Smith never "lived" in Taiwan, he lived and worked in a white, US military enclave known as Tien Mu, and I strongly presume had zero contact with Taiwanese (I am not talking about his KMT handlers---I am talking about "real" Taiwanese and yes, I know he claimed to be tight with the Hung brothers, but that is a whole other chapter).

In any event, back on topic; you might find that chapter in my book of interest. Basically Taiwanese martial arts history falls into four phases:
The Ming/Qing dynasties
The Japanese Colonial Period
The arrival of the KMT and the White Terror Period
Modern Taiwanese martial arts

Since I have written that book I would have actually added a fifth phase which would be the most modern phase called "The Cross Strait Phase" which is the trend I notice for mainland teachers to set up schools in Taiwan. This is possible nowadays becasue of changes to the Taiwanese law allowing more cross strait exchanges.

take care,
Brian
p.s. Taiwan is a great place, tons of great people and a fair amount of martial arts talent. I really miss it.

[SPJ]

Tong Bei or ever ready from Ma family (fan zi, ba ji, pi gua--)

they started a branch school in Taipei a few years back.

cool about cross straits period.

or both sides of the taiwan straits.

--

:cool:

[Jimbo]

I remember seeing people who practiced "Taiwan Chuan," which looked to me, superficially at least, like a combination of Fukien/Fujian Crane and TKD/karate.

I had some great years with some fine people in Taiwan. I miss it, too.

[JesseSmooth]

Next time I go back home, I'll look at Smith's books again as my dad has a couple of them. I've been looking at Antonio Graceffo's videos on YouTube as well as reading some of his articles. Taiwan has a lot of martial history, but seems like only the internal arts are promoted. I've read that even the KMT promotes taekwondo over Chinese kung fu.

I do remember reading the magazine's TREASURES OF TAIWAN columns, which the only one I still own is Chen Yan Sen and nunchaku.

[JesseSmooth]

This is a good thread. Don't let it die so soon. :)

[Jimbo]

In Taipei, you can find a lot of people who practice Chang Chuan styles, plus a lot of Bei Tanglang (Northern Mantis) styles; Baji, etc. Most common, though, it Taiji. Outside of Taipei, different styles of Fujian Crane seemed more common. When I was there, there was a beginning a fad of weird 'qigong' among a lot of people who would freak out and act possessed at qigong demos/events, including lots of audience members.

It was not so common for people who practice kung fu to do so much into adulthood, except for Taiji. After university, most quit kung fu to devote their time to their careers and other endeavors.

*Forgot to mention that there's a good Wing Chun group in Taipei headed by Lo Man-Kam.

[brianlkennedy]

One thing that I would add is that the Japanese influence is often overlooked when Taiwanese martial arts are discussed. The 50 year Japanese period had a major impact on the course of Taiwanese martial arts. The reason Taiwan has excellent kendo and judo clubs is the Japanese/Taiwanese police connection. That also accounts for Taiwan's strong Tae Kwon Do showings.

Another interesting aspect to Taiwanese martial arts is the effect that government sponsorship had (and still has). A brief example of that is---the Taiwanese government will give a lifetime government teaching job to anyone who wins an international martial arts competition for Taiwan. I helped a friend of mine draft the law that established that program.

It was my one and only experience as a "martial arts/sports law" attorney!

take care,
Brian

[Jimbo]

Agreed. I had spoken to some (mostly older) Taiwanese who practiced Japanese MA and the influence is very strong. I used to help out at a Taipei-area MA supply store for a while, and the boss there was into Kendo. One day he asked me why I waste my time with CMA, and that I should practice Kendo. :)

Over a few-days' period, another worker from that shop and I set up the mats for the judo room at a newly-built police facility.

Besides the Japanese occupation, I believe some other strong factors in the popularity of JMA (as well as TKD) is that the teaching is better-organized; goals are generally more clear-cut; students wear white, nicer-looking uniforms; and the fact that, among many, the CMA have a poor image connected with gangsters and quacks. Given that, I can see why more parents there would rather send their kids to TKD class than to kung fu. Also, the CMA are also viewed by many there (in some cases, rightfully so) as "hua chuan hsiu tui" (flowery fists/embroidery legs), meaning only good for show, whereas the JMA and TKD are viewed as straightforward and practical.

[Faruq]

In Taipei, you can find a lot of people who practice Chang Chuan styles, plus a lot of Bei Tanglang (Northern Mantis) styles; Baji, etc. Most common, though, it Taiji.

Anyone know if any Bak Mei Pai is practiced anywhere in Taiwan?



One thing that I would add is that the Japanese influence is often overlooked when Taiwanese martial arts are discussed. The 50 year Japanese period had a major impact on the course of Taiwanese martial arts. The reason Taiwan has excellent kendo and judo clubs is the Japanese/Taiwanese police connection. That also accounts for Taiwan's strong Tae Kwon Do showings.


I find that intriguing. Why does the Japanese occupation account for the Taiwanese showing strong in a Korean art? Bear in mind I've never been outside the states, so I acknowledge my ignorance in advance.

[Jimbo]

Although TKD is a Korean art, it originally was based on Shotokan karate. Also, the way TKD is taught is based along the lines of JMA, even though the current, Olympic-style TKD is several steps removed from what it once was.

TKD is also the art taught in the Taiwan military. It used to be CMA (not sure which style or styles, though; Baji??). I was told that during the 1960s or '70s, they switched to TKD because some influential man (a general? a politician?) witnessed a TKD demo and was highly impressed with the board and brick breaking, and felt it was easier to master than CMA.

As for Bak Mei Pai, it may very well be practiced in Taiwan, but I never personally saw or heard of any practitioners there.

Off the top of my head, here's a list of the CMA styles I personally saw there, which includes:

Chang Chuan (includes Tantui/Cha Chuan, Mei Hua, etc.)

Tanglang (N. Mantis, including 7-Star, 8-Step, 6-Harmony, and Secret Door styles)

Various styles of Fujian White Crane

Wing Chun

Hung Gar (the style I saw was very different from the Lam Sai-Wing lineage often seen in Hong Kong)

Hou Chuan (which was a southern Monkey system)

Hsing-I

Bagua

Taiji (Chen and Yang styles)

Pao Chui (Cannon Fist)

Ying Zhao (N. Eagle Claw)

Baji

Pi Qua

Shuai Jiao

Yen Ching Chuan

Tien Shan Pai

I had heard of Choy Lee Fut (Cailifo) being taught in Taiwan, but I never once actually saw an exemple of it there.

[brianlkennedy]

Jimbo,
Which martial arts store did you work at? The two I used to buy at most frequently were Bokaido and another one over by the Botantical Garden (I have spaced out on the second one's name, it started with "Ta---- and was owned by a set of brothers). Bokaido made outstanding judo gi--I still have and use my Bokaido gi.

take care,
Brian
p.s. what years were you there?---have we met?

[TenTigers]

speaking of Bokaido, does anyone have a good connection with them? I would like to order shuai jiao uniforms, and going through USSJA they charge 95 for jacket alone, but when we bought them directly from Bokaido, they were 65 for jacket, belt and pants. The trouble is, Bokaido only sold it to us if we walked in the door, and bought them personally,not by mail. It seems the association has a monopoly on them.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,
Which martial arts store did you work at? The two I used to buy at most frequently were Bokaido and another one over by the Botantical Garden (I have spaced out on the second one's name, it started with "Ta---- and was owned by a set of brothers). Bokaido made outstanding judo gi--I still have and use my Bokaido gi.

take care,
Brian
p.s. what years were you there?---have we met?

Hi, Brian. The one I worked at was named Ta Chung Martial Arts Supply. It was on Nan Chang Road, near Fu Chou St. I actually worked at (or 'helped out') there around the years 1990 through 1992, closer to the end of my Taiwan period. My whole Taiwan period was in part of 1984, then from Jan. 1985 until the very end of 1992, minus the year 1987, which was spent back in the States. But we probably didn't meet; at the shop, I was usually helping out, part-time, to assemble globes for world maps in the basement, or stuffing punching bags/assembling Chinese spears in the back, or helping move supplies upstairs.

I recently went on Google(?) maps and used that 360-degree photo thingy to revisit my old haunts and "walk the streets" online in Taipei, and tried to find Ta Chung. It was gone, or at least I couldn't see it where I remembered it was.

[Faruq]

Although TKD is a Korean art, it originally was based on Shotokan karate. Also, the way TKD is taught is based along the lines of JMA, even though the current, Olympic-style TKD is several steps removed from what it once was.

TKD is also the art taught in the Taiwan military. It used to be CMA (not sure which style or styles, though; Baji??). I was told that during the 1960s or '70s, they switched to TKD because some influential man (a general? a politician?) witnessed a TKD demo and was highly impressed with the board and brick breaking, and felt it was easier to master than CMA.

As for Bak Mei Pai, it may very well be practiced in Taiwan, but I never personally saw or heard of any practitioners there.

Oh, that makes sense Jim. All these years I was thinking TKD was a Korean art. But it was actually an offshoot of Shotokan. Fascinating. Kind of like how in Pencak Silat tournament competition, the three top world powers are Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam; though Pencak Silat isn't even native to Vietnam. Does Taiwanese TKD have as much of an emphasis on aerial kicking as the Korean TKD? And how do the TKD guys do in the Taiwan Lei Tai competitions?

[Jimbo]

There's really not a lot of difference between the current TKD you'll see in Taiwan, Korea, US, etc. Most of what I saw there was WTF-style TKD, which is the type you see in Olympic-style competition. So I would imagine it's the same in Taiwan as far as any aerial kicking is concerned. The older-style TKD, like the ITF-style, was definitely more karate-like. WTF was an attempt to further "Koreanize" TKD and remove more Japanese characteristics from it.

In terms of Lei Tai competitions in Taiwan, I saw a few Taiwanese fighters who used TKD to good effect. They were not only pure TKD, but practiced a mixture of things. I knew two of the fighters from the Taiwanese team whose fighting style was the same as Sanda, but with more TKD-style kicks. Their kicks were very good and very effective, but their favorite tactic was to ultimately get in and throw you to the floor.

[Faruq]

Interesting. Thanks.