Right Lead

[MightyB]

A while ago I criticized what I thought was a problem in TCMA which is the overused right hand and right hand lead. Now, as a fighter who prefers throwing, I see the right hand or south paw stance as beneficial for throwing.

What are you thoughts - which hand do you like to lead with in your fighting stance and why?

[SimonM]

I'm a southpaw.

I also have lots of power, not enough speed.

Being aware of this strength and this deficiency, I lead with my left.

My left jab has plenty of stopping power, and if successful can open people up to a follow-up from my right.

[Taixuquan99]

After ages of kung fu, I was a right lead.

Once I started teaching a little over a year ago, I always stressed each person training most in their dominant lead, and took the same lead when working with them. They were all orthodox. Now, I'm weirdly comfortable in different ways in both.

My right hand is a lot faster, so I like a right lead for that, but for some throws, I really like being in left.

Cool thread idea, I hadn't really thought about it much.

[Pork Chop]

When i made the transition to sport stuff, I learned orthodox first - was forced to.
I had a huge problem throwing crosses off my right foot.
Right foot is/was club footed, so I can't get much push off of it; it's also the reason I hate running.
After much internal debate (and a KO loss), I switched to the more natural-feeling southpaw.
The only time i've thought about switching back is to be able to use my normal gameplan (in reverse) against other southpaws.
krav maga gym makes us do everything on both sides; so I'm getting a little more comfy in orthodox again.
Learning orthodox at the beginning helped to understand how southpaw strategy exploits it; so I recommend it for everyone.

[mooyingmantis]

I am also a southpaw and prefer the left lead for fighting. However, I try to train each side equally, even learning forms on both sides. And I demand that my students train both sides equally every class.

I have certain combinations that "feel" more natural from one side or the other. So regardless of how I stand, I have combos that feel natural from whatever side is forward.

MightyB,
I do agree that TCMA can lead to an unbalanced fighting method unless the instructor takes precautions. One of the reasons I always liked Hung Gar and Wing Chun were their emphasis on training both sides of the body in their forms.

[YouKnowWho]

which hand do you like to lead with in your fighting stance and why?

You need to put your stronger side forward. The reason is simple. If your opponent moves toward your side door and use your front arm to jam your back arm, your back hand will become useless at that moment. if you put your strong side back, you will be in big trouble. You will have more chance to use your front hand than your back hand. The reasonis also simple. Your front hand is closer to your opponent.

If you are a grappler, you have to put your strong side forward just because your leading leg will have to do most of the work.

To train both sides equal is good in "theory" but not in "reality". If you have 80% confidence on your strong side and only 70% confidence on your weak side, why do you want to risk your life for that 10% in any life and death situation.

If you train different skills on different sides. you will be able to develop twice as many skills.

[-N-]

I've posted a few times on this before, but people don't seem to go anywhere with it.

Here's the relevent scientific background on handedness as related to right/left brain differentiation resulting from evolutionary pressures. Darwin doesn't lie.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolutionary-origins-of-your-right-and-left-brain

The super simplified version is that right/dominant lead is better for offense/predator mode. And left lead is better for defense/prey mode.

So depends on if you are in a sporting context, or in a go for broke kill or be killed mode.

Which one do you want to be, the predator or the prey?

[Jimbo]

I feel comfortable southpaw or orthodox. I'm right-handed, but can function pretty equally using left or right sides. Though I generally start off orthodox then move into right-lead, but am comfortable whichever way. My belief is that if you over-rely on leading with one side, what happens if something happens and you have no choice but to use your 'weak' side? IMO, it's best to work so that you have two strong sides.

[B.Tunks]

I've posted a few times on this before, but people don't seem to go anywhere with it.

Here's the relevent scientific background on handedness as related to right/left brain differentiation resulting from evolutionary pressures. Darwin doesn't lie.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolutionary-origins-of-your-right-and-left-brain

The super simplified version is that right/dominant lead is better for offense/predator mode. And left lead is better for defense/prey mode.

So depends on if you are in a sporting context, or in a go for broke kill or be killed mode.

Which one do you want to be, the predator or the prey?

Nice. Which is why the defensive guard of some families of Tanglang is dominant side rear and the advancing is dominant forward (unless u stay at range).

As far as your question, a bit of both- like the old saying 'defend like a virgin, attack like a tiger'

(Realistically though, maybe attack like a virgin would be more appropriate)

[-N-]

Nice. Which is why the defensive guard of some families of Tanglang is dominant side rear and the advancing is dominant forward (unless u stay at range)

Yep. You have to understand and use whichever strength is appropriate for the situation.

[YouKnowWho]

Will you hold your dagger in your "strong leading right hand" or your "weak back left hand"? Why will you treat weapon fight different from open hand fight? Is it just power vs. speed trade off?

[-N-]

Will you hold your dagger in your "strong leading right hand" or your "weak back left hand"? Why will you treat weapon fight different from open hand fight? Is it just power vs. speed trade off?

Is your dagger for offense or defense? Are you acting or reacting? What side do you have in front?

[YouKnowWho]

Is your dagger for offense or defense? Are you acting or reacting? What side do you have in front?

I assume I'm talking about offense here. In TCMA, it's always better to play offense and lose (you will have future) than to play defense and win (you will have no future).

[ShaolinDan]

I'm about equally (un?)comfortable on both sides. Always made it a point to train all my basics (including forms) on both sides. Haven't done this with weapons.

Of course the dagger would be in my strong right hand, but if I had something in my left to block with, or wanted to catch first, then stab, then my left would still lead.

Personally, I like to switch it up. I worry more about my distance/footwork than my hands, whatever foot's in front to put me where I'm trying to be will dictate my hands.

[Lee Chiang Po]

One should never be dependant upon a particular lead side. This is why you should practice everything left and right. To effectively place yourself in a position to avoid the opponents most powerful arm you need to be able to switch without a problem.

[SIFU RON]

Well put Lee

In Chinese TKF We learn to use both left and right equally.

[Pork Chop]

One should never be dependant upon a particular lead side. This is why you should practice everything left and right. To effectively place yourself in a position to avoid the opponents most powerful arm you need to be able to switch without a problem.

sounds good in theory.
in practice, it's hard enough to get proper body mechanics on one side...

[Frost]

sounds good in theory.
in practice, it's hard enough to get proper body mechanics on one side...

true ive noticed that people who ask why boxers dont switch stances are usually the first ones knocked out in sparring..........

[YouKnowWho]

true ive noticed that people who ask why boxers dont switch stances are usually the first ones knocked out in sparring..........

Not only in the striking world. In the wrestling world, it's difficult to find anyone who can apply hip throw well on both sides. You may see someone uses right side hip throw for offense and left side hit throw for defense. The intend is different. The Chinese wrestling has a special way to put on SC jacket in front of your opponent. The reason is not to let your opponent to know whether you are a right hand person or a left hand person. Since the rules is 2 out of 3, the 1st round is extream important. Your opponent may find out that you are a right hand or left hand person after he has lose his 1st round, that's your advantage.

A right hand person will put his right arm into his SC jacket sleeve first. A left hand person will put his left arm into his SC jacket sleeve first. If you put both arms into your SC jacket at the same time, your opponent won't be able to tell your strong side. This "ancient" tradition can tell us that the issue of "strong side vs. weak side" did exist long before we were born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJnJl7f46E

[Eric Olson]

Choy Lay Fut is pretty much always left hand lead.

EO

[Yum Cha]

Personally, I have a strong side, but I don't like to show anything until I have to. I also train both sides, and use the change of sides tactically, i.e. side door penetration.

I'm a little unusual in that way, many Pak Mei train 'the standard'.

There are lots of choices of different techniques for alternative sides, that capture the fact most people are strong right. So, you can do left or right lead and end up with the strong right finish.

We do a lot of grab or bridge with the weak, strike over with the strong, grab with the striking strong, and strike again same move with the weak. Pretty standard chinese boxing...

[-N-]

A right hand person will put his right arm into his SC jacket sleeve first. A left hand person will put his left arm into his SC jacket sleeve first. If you put both arms into your SC jacket at the same time, your opponent won't be able to tell your strong side. This "ancient" tradition can tell us that the issue of "strong side vs. weak side" did exist long before we were born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJnJl7f46E

They spin their jackets like right handers though, haha :)

Sometimes we wait to show our other side skills. Start mostly one side only. Then switch.

And on the switch, we might change strategy and even fighting style or systems.

[Dragonzbane76]

funny, all the southpaws. very rarely have i fought southpaws. I'm one by weird circumstance. I'm actually orthodox but choose to fight southpaw. I like the power hand forward but switch it up a good bit.

[YouKnowWho]

They spin their jackets like right handers though, haha :)

You should not spin like that. You should just

- shake your jacket with both arms (to show no hidden weapon).
- raise your arms and let your jacket to fall down into your arms.

Don't understand why the movie was filmed that way. :confused:

[Darthlawyer]

I train myself to fight with both sides. While I might favor some kicks with a lead right side, particularly the side and hook kicks, its important to be comfortable with both in competitive fighting. Particularly if you throw heavy/hard front thrust kicks and roundhouse kicks, the followthrough should carry you to/from an orthodox stance. Personally, I often use an intentionally missed roundhouse from an orthodox stance to set up a side kick from a southpaw stance. Try it in sparring; it works really well.

[SimonM]

I'll switch stance where it's tactically appropriate, but let's face it, everybody is going to have a stronger side and a weaker side. Understanding which is which, and why, is important to the process of improving.

[bawang]

i find when u try to be fancy and switch you can be easily sweeped or taken down.

[mooyingmantis]

funny, all the southpaws. very rarely have i fought southpaws. I'm one by weird circumstance. I'm actually orthodox but choose to fight southpaw. I like the power hand forward but switch it up a good bit.

Lol! Though I am a southpaw, I typically fight with my left hand forward. My thought is that I will hit more frequently with the lead hand, so I put my strong hand forward. Any strike coming from the rear hand should have multiplied force if one has proper shen fa.

Something else to consider in this discussion is which of your legs is dominant. Southpaws are not always left leg dominant, though I would image that most right handers are right leg dominant.

[bawang]

my biggest problem is when i switch stance i cant bring the front leg fast enough to block the roundhouse kick. it also screws up my timing.

when i sparred with very skilled friend i tried to step back and switch and he single leg me. i tried to move to the side and triangle switch and he double leg me. im not anderson silva and im going to practice footwork more before i try to do those fancy things

[mooyingmantis]

my biggest problem is when i switch stance i cant bring the front leg fast enough to block the roundhouse kick. it also screws up my timing.

when i sparred with very skilled friend i tried to step back and switch and he single leg me. i tried to move to the side and triangle switch and he double leg me.

I always cover a leg switch with a punch or kick. Want to bring the right rear leg forward?
Left lead job, right cross and right shin kick. Voila! Drop right leg forward. I never switch leg positions without a cover.

[bawang]

you cant throw an uncomiited roundhouse. its not like a punch. thats way too obvious and you will be caught if high and sweeped if low.


i think the main problem is people have sluggish feet and no one teaches any exercise to improve speed of footwork. im doing shuffle and lunges with cable machine and its helping a lot now.

[Jimbo]

Lol! Though I am a southpaw, I typically fight with my left hand forward. My thought is that I will hit more frequently with the lead hand, so I put my strong hand forward. Any strike coming from the rear hand should have multiplied force if one has proper shen fa.

Something else to consider in this discussion is which of your legs is dominant. Southpaws are not always left leg dominant, though I would image that most right handers are right leg dominant.

Different skills are better on different sides for me. For instance, on my left side, my lead side kick, spin back kick, lead front kick, jab, etc., are better, but on my right side, the roundhouse kick, rear-leg front kick, sow choy, kwa choy, right cross, uppercut, etc., are better. I'm also better in the right lead once I close the gap to the inside. I can do all on either side, it's only a matter of which are slightly more coordinated/stronger/natural/ consistent.

Being able to fight off of both sides does NOT mean trying to be fancy and switching back and forth for the sake of switching. Nor does it mean being OCD about it so that, for example, if you jab with one side you have to switch and jab with the other to stay even. For myself, it means that, even if I have a preferred side that I start out in, that I can function from whatever position I may find myself, at least as it relates to stand-up.

[Ray Pina]

A while ago I criticized what I thought was a problem in TCMA which is the overused right hand and right hand lead. Now, as a fighter who prefers throwing, I see the right hand or south paw stance as beneficial for throwing.

What are you thoughts - which hand do you like to lead with in your fighting stance and why?



I switch but I do like a strong right hand lead. Especially when I look to close. I look to strike/jam up anything incoming while closing with my strong hand, keep the back up at the chin for insurance, to strike over the top of any log jam opening up the right again.

You'll see it in my first video a lot. That's when I was only training internal. I feel safe that way.

[mjw]

I'm right handed and usually start out left lead though I am comfortable with both leads as stances change in drills/sparring/combat so I say work both so you are ready on both sides....

[-N-]

i think the main problem is people have sluggish feet [...]

A lot of people do.


no one teaches any exercise to improve speed of footwork. im doing shuffle and lunges with cable machine and its helping a lot now.

Also train plyometrics for explosive advance. Over and over. That's traditional.

Your kick and your step are the same. Train them the same way.

[-N-]

no one teaches any exercise to improve speed of footwork. im doing shuffle and lunges with cable machine and its helping a lot now.

When you train with your friend, have him kick your legs and shins. Practice escaping the kicks but staying in range. Have him speed up as you improve until he is chasing you with continuous kicks.

Then practice kicking his shins with single kicks. He should avoid your kicks and make you really try hard to attack him. As you improve, run in to kick him, and add more kicks.

On your own, or when you are resting in between training with your partner, practice running and kicking in the middle of your run. Then go faster and faster. Straight line first, then circles and figure eights.

After that becomes easy, have him punch you in the face when you practice your footwork. You can defend.

[-N-]

Then practice kicking his shins with single kicks. He should avoid your kicks and make you really try hard to attack him. As you improve, run in to kick him, and add more kicks.

Later have him counterkick you and sweep you when you step or kick. You avoid.

To improve faster, have him slap you and laugh at you when you practice that.

[YouKnowWho]

i find when u try to be fancy and switch you can be easily sweeped or taken down.

Many boxers told me that the reason that a boxer switches sides because he is tired. You should attack him as hard as you can at that moment.

[Lee Chiang Po]

my biggest problem is when i switch stance i cant bring the front leg fast enough to block the roundhouse kick. it also screws up my timing.

when i sparred with very skilled friend i tried to step back and switch and he single leg me. i tried to move to the side and triangle switch and he double leg me. im not anderson silva and im going to practice footwork more before i try to do those fancy things

I don't do anything fancy. Never did. Fancy gets you hurt eventually. However, even though I do have a stronger side, I have spent a huge amount of time and energy working to get the other side to work as well. I face head on rather then sideways to an opponent. Side on usually cuts my ability to fight down to about half since it puts my strongest weapon our of range where I might have to move in too close or get caught coming in. I do not try to toss power at anyone until I have the advantage at least so that when I do I can expect it to be effective and not get me hurt. I don't like getting beat up any more than the next person, so I will not just go right in for the kill and will definately not restrict myself by only being able to fight one sided. It takes practice. It is practice that makes up perfect.

[nubianmantis]

A lot of people do.



Also train plyometrics for explosive advance. Over and over. That's traditional.

Your kick and your step are the same. Train them the same way.

several years ago,In a conversation with the Great Master Brendan Lai,I asked him about stance/footwork. He told me to concern my self moving non-stop ,ie forward, circle's etc. My Former Hung-gar Sifu told us that fights are ended by you going inside the Gates and finishing the person with combinations non-stop. Be Well. NM.ps. you must have Guts and Killer Instinct.

[YouKnowWho]

moving non-stop ,ie forward, ... going inside the Gates.

The southern style calls this "入马(Ru Ma) - enter the horse". The northern style calls this "欺(Qi) - take unfair advantage of". A general term is just to "go through your opponent's front dooor and run him down". It's the best combat strategy IMO

[Lee Chiang Po]

Many boxers told me that the reason that a boxer switches sides because he is tired. You should attack him as hard as you can at that moment.

As a teenager I would go to our local boys club to swim, and I got to playing around with boxing some. At first I was just sparring for the guys that were trying to become real boxers. It was fun, but some of them were pretty hard hitting. I had many years of gung fu at that time and was quite used to a face on stance, and I used both leads back and forth, which actually confused them more than anything, and when I would go into a right lead I could jab with enough power to drop them if it connected. I would change to meet the individual I was fighting. I could knock them around pretty good too sometimes.
It would be foolish to switch leads if you can not do it effectively. If you only fight from a left lead or a right lead, you will not be able to effectively switch, and it will put you at a distinct disadvantage. So Practice both sides until you can do it without putting yourself in danger.

[Ray Pina]

Your kick and your step are the same. Train them the same way.



Very good.......

[David Jamieson]

I'm one of those stance hopping switching jerks who is pretty much comfortable with both sides.

I blame all the years of southern kung fu for getting me in the habit of doing things equally on both sides. never did that in any other art or sport. Just southern styles of kung fu.

And, if you were slack at it, it was recommended that you work the weak side until it gets better.

[Yum Cha]

my biggest problem is when i switch stance i cant bring the front leg fast enough to block the roundhouse kick. it also screws up my timing.

when i sparred with very skilled friend i tried to step back and switch and he single leg me. i tried to move to the side and triangle switch and he double leg me. im not anderson silva and im going to practice footwork more before i try to do those fancy things

Have you seen the 'Ali Shuffle?'

Switching legs in place, as opposed to stepping.

Step a leg forward as bait, switch, don't block, and he misses - and you have a turkey all balled up and ready to cook.

Pure timing.

[Yum Cha]

I'm one of those stance hopping switching jerks who is pretty much comfortable with both sides.

I blame all the years of southern kung fu for getting me in the habit of doing things equally on both sides. never did that in any other art or sport. Just southern styles of kung fu.

And, if you were slack at it, it was recommended that you work the weak side until it gets better.

Ai Ya! old school!

I know some schools that go to the point of doing forms in mirror image. Personally, I like to do Jik Bo both sided. I compensate by working key techniques on both sides, but really, I have tools for right and tools for left, and they aren't all interchangeable.

[R]

Perhaps an argument for doing both BM and LY as they do tend to lead with opposite sides and share many features..

FWIW

R

[Ray Pina]

And, if you were slack at it, it was recommended that you work the weak side until it gets better.

I agree with you. But I've heard convincing arguments against that too. That a baseball player or tennis player doesn't switch the glove or racket back and forth. You develop the side that's good for you.

Personally, I have things I like to do from one side for a situation and something else I'd do if caught in the same situation on the other side.

When I have my left forward I'm more of a boxing style into wrestling/shooting/leg picks. With my right forward more E-Chuan.

[bawang]

Also train plyometrics for explosive advance. Over and over. That's traditional.



thank you for mentioning plyometrics and giving me good advice. i tried some explosive jumping but i didnt really like it. i can actually shuffle and do foot manervers with weight attached using the cable machine.

[Lucas]

Depends on what it is, but generally I'm a fan of practicing something on one side until I 'get it' for a solid personal reference base to keep from developing bad/incorrect habits on the other side. Situational imo tho. For instance, id prefer to do a throw on the same side over and over and over till I have it, then train the opposite side up after its mine. Yet on something like a turn back kick, I like to train both sides side by side during development.

[-N-]

thank you for mentioning plyometrics and giving me good advice. i tried some explosive jumping but i didnt really like it. i can actually shuffle and do foot manervers with weight attached using the cable machine.

Not jumping specifically, but training your attacking footwork similar to what you are already doing with the cable machine. The weighted cable can give you feedback to improve your movements, but also do the same without the cable and focus specifically on the explosiveness. Also emphasize the eccentric contractions at the endof your movements. Land deep and launch again.

[lance]

A while ago I criticized what I thought was a problem in TCMA which is the overused right hand and right hand lead. Now, as a fighter who prefers throwing, I see the right hand or south paw stance as beneficial for throwing.

What are you thoughts - which hand do you like to lead with in your fighting stance and why?

MightyB , I ' m not going to quote you , just replying to your topic posts . In the
fighting from your horse stance catagory , of this forum I was in an argument too .
That figthing from this stance was no good , but I disaree with this person . The surprising thing is that the person I was arguing with happened to post a topic reply to your topic post , that he really like the right lead . I like the right lead too , there is nothing wrong with over using the right lead , because if you feel that it works best for you why not keep on using it . People , criticize you MightyB , mainly because this right lead did ' nt work for them , but it worked for you . So they want you use another type of stance so they can beat you . So listen to your own instincts MightyB .

I don ' t know what your martial arts back ground is , but if your opponent was in the same stance as you , you still can beat him . Or even if he was in a left lead .
You ' ve been in a fight before so , you pretty much know what to expect .

[Taixuquan99]

MightyB , I ' m not going to quote you , just replying to your topic posts . In the
fighting from your horse stance catagory , of this forum I was in an argument too .
That figthing from this stance was no good , but I disaree with this person . The surprising thing is that the person I was arguing with happened to post a topic reply to your topic post , that he really like the right lead . I like the right lead too , there is nothing wrong with over using the right lead , because if you feel that it works best for you why not keep on using it . People , criticize you MightyB , mainly because this right lead did ' nt work for them , but it worked for you . So they want you use another type of stance so they can beat you . So listen to your own instincts MightyB .

On the bow stance thing, apparently we were speaking past each other, perhaps not, I was only speaking of using as a ready stance, not fighting from, a bow stance. I use bow stance a lot, just not as a ready stance, that's all. I'm not saying that you are wrong if you do, I was merely discussing my approaches, not intending to denigrate those of others.

[lance]

On the bow stance thing , apparently we were speaking by pass eachother .
Perhaps not , I was only speaking of using as a ready stance , not fighting from a bow stance , I use bow stance alot , just not as a ready stance . That ' s all , I ' m
not saying that you ' re wrong if you do . I was merely discussing my aooroaches , not intending to denigrate others .

Taxiquan , okay no problem .

[PalmStriker]

I am also a southpaw and prefer the left lead for fighting. However, I try to train each side equally, even learning forms on both sides. And I demand that my students train both sides equally every class.

I have certain combinations that "feel" more natural from one side or the other. So regardless of how I stand, I have combos that feel natural from whatever side is forward.

MightyB,
I do agree that TCMA can lead to an unbalanced fighting method unless the instructor takes precautions. One of the reasons I always liked Hung Gar and Wing Chun were their emphasis on training both sides of the body in their forms.

Being a cross-lateral lefty (not to be confused with ambidexterity), I lead with my right and Wing Chun supplement has been great through the years to at least feel coordinated (not reactionary) in using both arms for the same functions.

[Darthlawyer]

When I have my left forward I'm more of a boxing style into wrestling/shooting/leg picks. With my right forward more E-Chuan.

Just about everyone I know who grew up doing more traditional style classes, but ended up fighting full contact competitively has said this (to one degree or another). I think its a product in many cases of traditional schools being more likely to emphasize a right side forward form, and most heavy bag and more modern trainers being experienced with a western boxing-style orthodox stance.

[Ray Pina]

In karate I always favored a left lead, but that was because I liked my left side kick.

Then my E-Chuan master taught me a strong lead right. And I liked that.

And then boxing favored the lead left but my old boxing coach liked switching to a lead power right sometimes so we wasn't against it but always told me not to switch, that it was something we'd work on later.... the head coach then through me out of the gym so I didn't get the chance.:)

[jdhowland]

When I started Bak Sing CLF my teacher liked a right hand lead, so I copied him. It still feels natural to me. Later when I learned Hung Sing I found that its largely a right-handed system and was told you are supposed to train the other side as you mature. In other words, highest percentage first, adaptability later.

But: some techniques are only drilled on one side because of the likelihood of a weapon being in the right hand.

Asymmetrical training is practical. Most weapon systems are so.

[jmd161]

I am also a southpaw and prefer the left lead for fighting. However, I try to train each side equally, even learning forms on both sides. And I demand that my students train both sides equally every class.

I have certain combinations that "feel" more natural from one side or the other. So regardless of how I stand, I have combos that feel natural from whatever side is forward.

MightyB,
I do agree that TCMA can lead to an unbalanced fighting method unless the instructor takes precautions. One of the reasons I always liked Hung Gar and Wing Chun were their emphasis on training both sides of the body in their forms.

I'm right handed but for some reason I've always fought southpaw... before I started training with my current sifu... every sifu I had, taught based off right hand lead. I also have combinations/techniques that feel more natural one side over the other. My current sifu has stressed from day one that everything be done equally... this is instilled in Black Tiger training as once you get to a certain point we have a one armed form. That form is taught to you on your weak side and you must spar from that point on using that side (one arm) against younger brothers who can use both their arms.