Luk Dim Boon Gwan [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Vajramusti

09-05-2011, 10:37 AM

Agree, it's my understanding that the pole was never really a true form anyway, just a set of movements that one could organize anyway they chose.
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True. Sifu Augustine Fong connected the movements into a form for demo or practice purposes.
His advanced students know the form and many others know the one and two person drills.
One of Moy Yat's NYC student learned the form from sifu and won a weapons competition some years ago. One of sigung Ho's Canadian students is also very good with the pole.

I respect Bayer learing the kwan given his own challenge.

joy

nasmedicine

09-05-2011, 12:46 PM

Agree, it's my understanding that the pole was never really a true form anyway, just a set of movements that one could organize anyway they chose.

well said and i agree

k gledhill

09-05-2011, 04:09 PM

Graham H

09-06-2011, 02:14 AM

Not a good video of WSL using the long pole. During that seminar the floor was very slippery. No grip for his shoes but still better than the others me thinks. ;)

GH

k gledhill

09-06-2011, 06:01 AM

Not a good video of WSL using the long pole. During that seminar the floor was very slippery. No grip for his shoes but still better than the others me thinks. ;)

GH

All in the details :D Some seem to raise and lower the pole tip several feet rather than use 'tip force' .
Tang Yick has some fancy moves ....

LoneTiger108

09-06-2011, 08:56 AM

variations of VT luk dim boon Kwan :

clip 1 Lun Kai Fatshan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYqcLvE7lXg)

Clip 2 WSL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc&feature=related)

Clip 3 W. Cheung (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=YvrnJyuUyEE)

Clip 4 TST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9QGD_LNWPM&feature=related)

Clip 5 Tang Yick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maqYN-ocyU&NR=1)

5.5 Tan Yick short clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-EYEMUIoM&feature=related)

It's interesting that here is solid proof that there are very few examples of Wing Chun Pole out there in the World! :eek:

Call it what you like, but all of these clips are not full examples of the 6.5 'form' (because there IS one imhhho) they are simply the condensed drills Ip Man selected to teach within the small spaces of the HK gwoons.

Sean66

09-07-2011, 04:35 AM

My reply to a low kick is a good fong lung cheung with the ol' long pole (which is the topic of this thread, by the way).

The long pole may be obsolete as a weapon in today's world, but learning the basic pole exercises and learning how to fight with the pole are great ways to improve your empty hand work. Solidifying the connection between the lower and upper body, thus improving whole body coordination and movement (especially the connection between hips and elbows), pole work can end up really improving your punching power.

And of course it's just a hell of a lot of fun to spar with the thing!

So, anyone want to share some video material or ideas concerning the long pole?

How about it, GlennR?

Graham H

09-07-2011, 05:14 AM

Thats the spirit G.... a conversation at last!

I agree totally, but, heres the scenario.
He's launched it, its too late to move back/forward..... what do you do?

Its reality, im not asking it just to be a knob ;)

Like my Teacher says..."there is no time in fighting to think of such things".....

Firstly we must have a strategy but there are too many factors to give one solid answer that fits all questions. There is no perfect world!
If we abide by the Ving Tsun concept of Loi lau, Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung, in the first instance it tells us to intercept the opponents movement with your own. To bring into the conversation what Sean was saying, Long Pole training increases our start speed, punching power and punching precision so this gives us the tools to meet the opponent with something that in theroy should be structurally better than what being thrown be it kick or punch.
When somebody is kicking they are on one leg so their balance is more than 50% less than with two feet on the ground. If our timing is right, the way in which we move is right and we disrupt the opponents center of gravity then this should take the sting from the kicks. Maybe we can pre-empt it in which case the kick may not get thrown at all.
There are difficulties in fighting a kicker because the leg is longer than the arm just as with fighting a person who is throwing arcing punches. Most systems of Ving Tsun are using Tan Sau to defend against these actions but this is bad thinking. Without LSJC and putting ourselves inside the opponents firing line then we will always get hit eventually. My Teacher also says that if things are too 50/50 then it is not good for fighting. It takes skill which is what Ving Tsun should teach us and improve but the outcome or what gets thrown is not decided until the fight is over.

GH

Eric_H

09-07-2011, 11:26 AM

While all the other arts were training in, dare I say, a 'sparring, fair fight' type of way

You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself on this one.

Saying longfist arts aren't dangerous just shows you've never gone up against someone who does them. There is nothing "fair" about any system that trains to fight. Perhaps you should look up the Lacey brothers, who (if memory serves right) made a name for themselves beating the stuffing out of WC guys in their younger days.

Wayfaring

09-07-2011, 01:20 PM

It'd be nice if more chunners understood distances in real application.

What is it you feel that most do not understand exactly? And why do you think that is?

WC was designed for close range, nothing else without weapons. It really is genius IMO. While all the other arts were training in, dare I say, a 'sparring, fair fight' type of way, the creators realized how unrealistic distance fighting is.

While it's nice to notice your enthusiasm for wing chun, your assessment of "all other arts" is completely off base.

For example, in a sparring or unrestricted fighting environment one of the very first things people get a feel for is distance. And boxing seeks to get into the same range as wing chun for striking, as do most hand oriented arts. Boxing follows the jab in stepping towards the opponents back foot to get into range. The jab sets up the next strikes. The available response is limited by the construct of the human body and using hands mainly as the offensive weapons.

Typically a boxer with 2 years of experience will be able to control the distance in a fight with much more skill than a 2 year wing chun fighter who primarily trains chi sau. The reason for this is that the chi sau fighter never trains the entry into the bridge for the most part from an unrestricted fighting perspective.

The most important point in all of wing chun: go in to the center immediately upon no contact.

Yes this is a universal truth in wing chun. Sifu Garrett Gee says that we live or die on the centerline.

That pretty much means, in real application since prolonged contact is rare, all the time. Rushing the opponent so to speak so as not to allow a MT kick to happen. And even if it does, so what.

Prolonged contact in real application with someone skilled in wrestling takedowns, judo throws, and ground fighting is certainly not rare. They train to be able to take someone down who rushes in on the centerline. Yes getting inside the perimeter of a kick can diffuse it's force. However, leg kicks are harder to prevent.

One other consideration. Do you realize how hard it is to hit a boxing opponent with good bob and weave skills and good footwork? Yes we work to control centerline and their center of gravity, but that is not a given by any means.

Fong Sifu also says that your skill level can get to a point where you can 'feel' the opponents intent without contact before he even moves. I have felt it a few times and it's the result of understanding timing which IMO nothing teaches better than Chi Sao. You train with contact to be able to 'feel' without contact at the highest skill level.
Actually one of the first things you start to pick up when you spar consistenly is being able to spot indicators of an opponents intent without contact before he moves. There are little indicator moves which trigger intent. There are also from positions as you get to learn a limited set of motions that are available from a given stance and distance.

Trained fighters get to this level regardless of whether they do so training wing chun or another art.

Eric_H

09-07-2011, 02:34 PM

Whatever.

There appears to be only two lineages on this forum who have complete confidence in what was taught to them. My own being one of them. That ought to tell you something right there....

How does acknowledging that other people can be good at fighting translate into having no confidence in WC?

I am all for being confident in what I know - but my confidence is based on not what I was shown by my teacher, but what I personally can (and cannot) do based on exchanges with as many fighters from different styles as I can get to play with (sparring or otherwise). You are refusing to even acknowledge that people who do longfist can be good at fighting.

That is not confidence, that is arrogance.

Which, is somewhat comical when as I already noted, there are longfist guys who have considerable fame in tearing WC guys apart. But i suppose there's always the passive-aggressive out of "they probably weren't taught right..."

GlennR

09-07-2011, 02:42 PM

Like my Teacher says..."there is no time in fighting to think of such things".....

True, but that would pertain to all legitimate fighting arts i'd think

Firstly we must have a strategy but there are too many factors to give one solid answer that fits all questions. There is no perfect world!
If we abide by the Ving Tsun concept of Loi lau, Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung, in the first instance it tells us to intercept the opponents movement with your own. To bring into the conversation what Sean was saying, Long Pole training increases our start speed, punching power and punching precision so this gives us the tools to meet the opponent with something that in theroy should be structurally better than what being thrown be it kick or punch.
When somebody is kicking they are on one leg so their balance is more than 50% less than with two feet on the ground. If our timing is right, the way in which we move is right and we disrupt the opponents center of gravity then this should take the sting from the kicks. Maybe we can pre-empt it in which case the kick may not get thrown at all.

So you'd agree its all about bridging the gap?

There are difficulties in fighting a kicker because the leg is longer than the arm just as with fighting a person who is throwing arcing punches. Most systems of Ving Tsun are using Tan Sau to defend against these actions but this is bad thinking.

Yep, not a real good choice

Without LSJC and putting ourselves inside the opponents firing line then we will always get hit eventually. My Teacher also says that if things are too 50/50 then it is not good for fighting. It takes skill which is what Ving Tsun should teach us and improve but the outcome or what gets thrown is not decided until the fight is over.

All good principles G, but thats my current problem problem with the WC way of thinking...... principles are fine but i need sound, reliable and effective techniques to impliment those principles.
To be honest, i still dont have an answer to my question.

Oh, and excuse the change of topic last night, i was into my 4th beer when i started typing ;)

Sean66

09-08-2011, 12:23 AM

Christ on a crutch you guys, can't we stick to the theme of this **** thread.

If someone wants to start another thread, great. But this one is about the subject of the original video posted: the long pole.

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about it? Graham offered some insights into the benefits of training the long pole. Doesn't anyone else here train the thing?

Here is some basic info, just to get things back on track:

Che Gwan Kuen – Pulling apart pole punches.
Gwan Ma – Pole stance.
Ji Ng Ma – « Meridian » stance, refers to the pole « en garde » position.

1. 'Fong Lung Cheung' - Thrusting.

2. 'Ping Cheung' - Pushing the pole, like lan sau.

3. 'Leung Yi' - Sort of like jaat sau, defending with the pole and remaining in position for attack.

4. 'Lau Soi' - Stirring. Sort of like bong sau.

5. 'Kam Gwan' - Covering.

6. 'Dang Gwan' - Ascending pole. Lifting action at beginning of form.

0.5 'Che Cheung' - Descending pole.

With the long pole we strive to bring the accelerated mass of the weapon into the small area at the tip, or a reduced area on the surface (as in the case of Ping Cheung). This requires us to pay close attention to the position of the feet, the pelvis and the elbows. Easy to see how this can help develop the coordination between the lower and upper body, thus improving whole body movement and, in turn, punching power and precision.

It's worth to note that basic long pole or spear exercises are used in many cma as general body conditioning methods.

Vajramusti

09-08-2011, 04:02 AM

[QUOTE=Sean66;1131837]
Here is some basic info, just to get things back on track:

Che Gwan Kuen – Pulling apart pole punches.
Gwan Ma – Pole stance.
Ji Ng Ma – « Meridian » stance, refers to the pole « en garde » position.

1. 'Fong Lung Cheung' - Thrusting.
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The pole is known quite well in my lineage. Beginning students can do basic drills with it.

Advanced students can do the whole thing- all the above and more.

I have to go and work out early this morning. I will say more later Sean.

joy

k gledhill

09-08-2011, 05:03 AM

Lok Dim Bon Kwun in comparison to the bare hand techniques' training,
adopts the same principle, which stresses
the practical aspect of a motion (technique) instead of its beauty.
Reaching the level where the technical concepts (rules) are in agreement
with practical skills is a must.
Every move (technique) has to be very precise.

Wong Shun Leung

Sean66

09-08-2011, 05:31 AM

GlennR,
You Aussies and your beer! There's a love story for ya!
True that a couple of pints may not be good for internet-fu (which requires fine motor skills for typing and un-clouded eyesight) but I bet it's good for wrestlin' crocs!!

I see what your saying, but the point is not that you have to first get to the weapons in order to develop a good punch. It's simply that the weapons training, above and beyond learning how to fight with them, is yet another way of improving your empty hands work.

It's like hitting a truck tire with a huge sledgehammer. You don't have to do this to have a decent punch, but it can help in developing your "connectedness", which in turn can give you some extra bang.
The long pole is not easy to wield (I train with one that's a bit heavier than the usual) and at the same time it demands great accuracy. The combination can really help in fine tuning your coordination and in focusing your power.

And like I said before, it's fun to train with.

k gledhill

09-10-2011, 10:04 AM

Fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to come across as critical, just offering a perspective into the benefits of weapons training for empty hand over and above the usual physical strength arguments. As you say the physical strength bits can be trained in other ways and don't need weapons. The magnifying effect on the need for absolute precision is the bit I love though and is what always makes me smile when I see footage of people waving the pole around all over the shop.

Glad to hear another concurring observation on pole waving. :D it equates to 'chasing' in my eyes.

Sean66

09-10-2011, 11:00 AM

First and foremost the pole is there to fight with.

It is not there to train raw physical strength, but a specific type of functional strength...the strength you need to wield the long pole accurately!

In addition, if you perform the pole movements correctly, you'll be working the same body connections (elbows and hips, for example) that you need for executing a good vertical punch.

The long pole forces you to generate power accurately to extreme distances. This requires good whole-body movement, which will in turn benefit all of your work.

LoneTiger108

09-11-2011, 06:26 AM

First and foremost the pole is there to fight with.

True. But I would say that first and foremost the pole is there to assist our knives in training. They compliment eachother, like a yum yeurng (yin yang) and if you sacrifice one over the other you are doing the system injustice imho.

Graham H

09-12-2011, 07:58 AM

.....from Barry Lee..

It was often said in the early days and while I was training 24 years ago, that before you learned the knife you had to have "perfect hands". The Bat Chum Do is based on the hand movements of Ving Tsun, with some very important theoretical and practical differences and there is no room for error when you use the knife as it was intended. When you fight hand to hand with someone you will always be hit, you may be hurt momentarily and able to continue fighting, or you may be injured more seriously, but chances are that you will recover and be able to fight again. When you use the knives you are in combat with an opponent who also has a weapon, perhaps two and if you make even a simple mistake, if your movements are not totally co-ordinated and perfectly executed you will be cut. You can bleed to death from even a simple looking cut, you can also die from infection and the worst scenario as an example, is that both your heads or guts are lying on the ground.

Whilst we do not have the opportunity today, to use the knives as they were intended, we still practice as if we had to use them in just this way; for this is the esscence of Ving Tsun, to fight to win and practice of the knives is no different. However, once you have the hard, hard practice behind you and understand how to use each movement correctly, you will find that you can practice your knife a little less and concentrate on perfecting your whole Ving Tsun. Learning the knives too early, before you have balance and control of your entire body, very strong waist and near "Perfect Hands" can also lead to a deterioration in technique and incorrect application of your movements. The weight of any weapon if practiced to the point where you and your muscles are becoming tired, can result in dropping of hands, degradation in balance and control and in short, the practice of incorrect movements.

If you know and understand the Ving Tsun Knives you will know how and why the knife movements differ from the hand movements and realise why these knives (particularly if they are the correct weight for combat against someone else with a weapon) can easily draw your open hands out of line if practised too early.

I say to all those wanting to learn the knife, to ask yourself just how good your hands really are. "Can you co-ordinate your whole body as one unit and really draw the power from your waist. Can you feel your movement or do you still have to think about what you are doing?!" If your hands are not as good as they can be, then forget the knives and go back to hard training that will result in your really being able to use your Ving Tsun to win.

Vajramusti

09-12-2011, 08:32 AM

That is a good excerpt from Barry Lee.

Joy Chaudhuri

LoneTiger108

09-13-2011, 06:24 AM

And the guys you mentioned dont seem so insecure in what they do that they have to keep rubbishing other lineages...... go figure hey

And there it is Glenn! :)

If you believe as I do that we are all under the one Wing Chun tree, all the lineages are expressing are different branches of the same tree, with different leaves and flowers.

Now whether the roots started in England, USA, Australia, Europe or Hong Kong to the Mainland really doesn't matter so much to me! It's how many of us can be sheltered by our Wing Chun tree!! :D ;)

That's the security you talk of imho

anerlich

09-13-2011, 03:48 PM

but if phil, anelich and his sifu (and even victor before he got banned) are anything to go by, he at least turns out knowledgeable and competent students who actually walk the walk as you say

Thanks Frost, but spell my name right next time ;)

GlennR

09-13-2011, 04:51 PM

And there it is Glenn! :)

If you believe as I do that we are all under the one Wing Chun tree, all the lineages are expressing are different branches of the same tree, with different leaves and flowers.

Now whether the roots started in England, USA, Australia, Europe or Hong Kong to the Mainland really doesn't matter so much to me! It's how many of us can be sheltered by our Wing Chun tree!! :D ;)

That's the security you talk of imho

Nice sentiment Spencer but not for me.

I have some great friends ive made in WC, in fact MA in general, but ive never bought the one lineage-one family thing.

Sihing73

09-14-2011, 03:45 PM

Hello,

Trimmed down the thread quite a bit but hopefully did not take anything really worthwhile away.

Guys try to stay on topic and stop the petty insults and d*** measuring.

If you can't stay on topic and remain civil then the thread will be closed again and the guilty parties will face repercussions which could include being banned.

Play nice..........................................Plea se ;)

k gledhill

09-16-2011, 05:21 AM

WSL discussing some of the 'points' ...

CLIP: POLE I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R5LTV0WzLo)

k gledhill

09-16-2011, 05:49 PM

Wang Kiu Linage Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_595394&feature=iv&src_vid=cJaaWau1JnQ&v=LQUEUYE1Za4)

Vajramusti

09-16-2011, 07:02 PM

Wang Kiu Linage Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_595394&feature=iv&src_vid=cJaaWau1JnQ&v=LQUEUYE1Za4)
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No comment on Wang Kiu- but the guy in the vid does not seem to know how to hold the kwan.

k gledhill

09-16-2011, 08:00 PM

Jim Fung , TST Pole Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3CP0t9fAQ8)

k gledhill

09-16-2011, 08:01 PM

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No comment on Wang Kiu- but the guy in the vid does not seem to know how to hold the kwan.

No elbow...no body.

WC1277

09-17-2011, 12:00 AM

Vajramusti

09-17-2011, 06:14 AM

Joy did you get my PM?
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I am not very regular in checking my PMs... but I just did and replied.Thx. I will be away much of the time from my computer for a couple of weeks- unless I happen to run into an internet cafe.
Good wishes, Joy

k gledhill

09-17-2011, 08:26 AM

WSL>PB student weapons clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRKII7LKNrU&feature=related)

Frost

09-17-2011, 08:36 AM

Thanks Frost, but spell my name right next time ;)

Sorry and ill get it right next time...i hope

LoneTiger108

09-18-2011, 04:12 AM

Trying to bring back a thread that's been battered beyond all recognition is just pointless, especially when there is no poster here that has any clips of 'themselves' using a pole!

I have plenty, but I believe this thread is dead dudes... there is no point :D

Sean66

09-18-2011, 05:38 AM

Ok, give me a few to find it, and I'll put up a clip of yours truly wielding the long pole!

Sean66

09-18-2011, 06:36 AM

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCvzcEHZ7F0

LoneTiger108

09-18-2011, 10:08 AM

Ah! The resurrection! :)

k gledhill

09-18-2011, 11:29 AM

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCvzcEHZ7F0

Nice work...whats the pole made of ? Im looking at various woods....

Sean66

09-18-2011, 11:34 AM

Thanks. I'm not sure what that pole is made of, a student bought it in Paris for me. But I don't recommend it. I broke one just doing deng gwan!

Hard to find a good pole these days.

What type of woods are you considering?

k gledhill

09-18-2011, 11:43 AM

Mahogany seems a good heavy wood, I tried one and its a real workout compared to cheaper lighter woods. Wont break ! :D

Sean66

09-18-2011, 11:59 AM

k gledhill

09-18-2011, 02:54 PM

Did you spar the taichi pole ?

Sean66

09-18-2011, 11:06 PM

No, at the time my former student had just learned the basics and wasn't really ready for sparing. However, I did spar with the taiji qiang (it's actually a spear without the tip) against one of my wing chun brothers, who was using the wing chun pole.

Due to it's length and flexibility, the taiji qiang is harder to handle....requires a higher degree of body integration to achieve any sort of accuracy and speed.

LoneTiger108

09-19-2011, 08:37 AM

About the type of wood, it's difficult to find something that is heavy and hard enough, but with just the right amount of flexibility to get "feedback".

For taiji, we use a pole made out of wax wood, but it is much more flexible than the normal wing chun pole. Here's a former student of mine doing some basic exercises with this type of pole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWKxFKZPN9k

Okay, it looks like we're at least talking about what we do ourselves here so let's see...

I use white wax wood sticks, and longer white wax poles but you must be sure to get them large enough at the base imo. The pole your student is using is either too thin or he's bloody Superman! :D Or probably a mixture of both :)

A great clip though of one of the major spear techs, which FWIW is featured in the Lee Shing pole too ;)

Sean66

09-19-2011, 09:02 AM

A great clip though of one of the major spear techs, which FWIW is featured in the Lee Shing pole too

Which technique would that be?

wingchunIan

09-19-2011, 02:12 PM

Nice work...whats the pole made of ? Im looking at various woods....

What do you want to with it? For solo training buy one made from reclaimed qwan dim wood. Almost impossible to break and great feedback. Not cheap but worth the investment. Most of the cheap ones are two pieces joined together but a single piece one will set you back around £100 over here. If you want to play around against other poles, knives and other weapons I'd suggest popping along to the local hardware store and buying a 2.4m length of 35mm pine dowling. Nowhere near right for the form but cheap, circa £15 here, and hence less painful when it gets cut and hacked.:cool:

k gledhill

09-19-2011, 02:53 PM

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 01:20 AM

Guys, you're not reading between the lines!!

White wax wood is the way to go for weaponry interactive training and 'sparring' and if you have never tried it go out and find a supplier because they're so worth it.

No splinters from all your hacking, no breaks and if you want to rub away all the notches you build up over time just get some sandpaper ;) And the majority are tapered just as the long pole should be imho and so are great for form work too.

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 01:22 AM

Which technique would that be?

The Yang Tai Chi spear thrust you posted dude :confused: ;)

Graham H

09-20-2011, 02:13 AM

What do you want to with it? For solo training buy one made from reclaimed qwan dim wood. Almost impossible to break and great feedback. Not cheap but worth the investment. Most of the cheap ones are two pieces joined together but a single piece one will set you back around £100 over here. If you want to play around against other poles, knives and other weapons I'd suggest popping along to the local hardware store and buying a 2.4m length of 35mm pine dowling. Nowhere near right for the form but cheap, circa £15 here, and hence less painful when it gets cut and hacked.:cool:

I don't understand your mindset. What do you want to do with it????? We do the same as we do with the hands. We use the form and drills to learn how to use it then we fight. It's simple. If you have a good pole you only need one that will stand up to sparring or whatever. I find the fact that you say "play around against other........" a bit worrying. The long pole is important for conditioning, and reinforcing concepts that apply to fist fighting. It also is a weapon in its own right and although we will never use it for real we must spar aggresively to maintain our skills in all areas.

GH

Graham H

09-20-2011, 02:14 AM

The Yang Tai Chi spear thrust you posted dude :confused: ;)

Its about time your pole form reached us via video Spencer then we will know what you mean. Sean put one up. Maybe you will duck and dive some more? :rolleyes:

G

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 03:45 AM

Its about time your pole form reached us via video Spencer then we will know what you mean. Sean put one up. Maybe you will duck and dive some more? :rolleyes:

I've already said that I have footage in HD G, but my PC is just too old to handle it! :eek:

I have other, older footage, and my Sifu has plastered some of my stick demos all over Facebook so there's stuff of me out there.

Regards our families 'form' though, I think that will have to be passed through my Sifu as the entire form of Lee Shings has NEVER been put out publically, as he wasn't a public Sifu ;) What you see of my uncles rendition is the closest you may get, and in all honesty that does not do my Sigungs pole plays much justice imho :o but the basic 'image' is there.

Here are Sifu Austins clips http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNU4B4BToIE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs&feature=related

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 04:02 AM

k gledhill

09-20-2011, 05:09 AM

Spencer what are you doing in the circle of death at 2:33 ? its not VT pole....its a spear with common spearing techniques...Did you get shown this as VT pole ?
not having a go, question.

Graham H

09-20-2011, 05:22 AM

Actually, here's ME doing a 'version' of our form, but this was 10 years ago now!! How I love churning all that flag waving over in my memory!! ;) :eek:

Look Dim Boon Gwan Toh Lo - 2min 05sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_5SS2BR-Y&feature=channel_video_title

FYI Sean66 @ 2min 33sec is our 'shoot'

That's not Ving Tsun. It's Wushu! Ving Tsun pole please Spence! If your pole has improved in 10 years and looks a bit more like other Ip Man lineages then lets have a look. No point in offering stuff of Goh. That's not Ving Tsun either.

G

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 05:23 AM

Spencer what are you doing in the circle of death at 2:33 ? its not VT pole....its a spear with common spearing techniques...Did you get shown this as VT pole ?
not having a go, question.

And it is your word against my Sigungs? Not having a go but you see where I'm coming from? ;)

Yes, this is a 'version' of our pole form, which is Wing Chun. Again, one of the reasons there is/was little publicity on this form from our family is out of respect for Ip Man and what he done. This is not Ip Mans pole set, it belongs to Wing Chun.

Is it really that difficult to understand? :confused:

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 06:02 AM

Lee Shings first Wing Chun Sifu (according to Legend lol!) was Ng Jung Sok, so he was Ip Mans junior brother. This is more than likely where he picked up his pole form. He also had a 3.5 point form from the Fung family and he never taught Ip Mans revised version as far as I know, but he may have helped in it's creation! Lok Yiu (and others) also has very distinctive pole plays from my research.

What I know is my Sifus interpretation of Lee Shings Wing Chun, and considering he was with Lee Shing from 1965-1991 (daily!) I'm more inclined to think what he has is good old fashioned Wing Chun Martial Art. (yes! Yongchunquan Wushu!!)

I think you need to consider that what you know is Ip Mans simplified 'Ving Tsun' that was again simplified by WSL and PB in turn. What Ip Man done was refine and take away from the classical versions he learnt. Some would agree that that is fine, but others would say he stripped the system of it's origins, creating a new modern hybrid of what it once was.

Lee Shing was recognised as a National Treasure by the Chinese government at the time, for his work to preserve the older traditions like medicine and martial arts. These are just facts. His relationship with Ip Man was very special according to his closest students, but it was restrictive and that's where his students kind of 'rebelled' later o n in the eighties. It's a loooong story, but one which I know and maybe you do not because you are not interested to learn who 'really' brought Wing Chun to Europe on behalf of Ip Man?

But that's just my opinion too of course :D

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 06:23 AM

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264894_168943783171143_100001665678026_384984_3260 360_n.jpg

Just look at the variety of Sifus he had access to, and they were all Wing Chun practitioners Graham! ;)

Not that I want to deter the thread from the Wing Chun Pole methods, but I do get tired of silly questions and assumptions sometimes.

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 07:50 AM

Getting back on subject...

So do any other WSL guys practise these drills??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPnONszDNOY&feature=player_embedded

Sean66

09-20-2011, 08:51 AM

Yes, although with slightly different body mechanics.

You can take any movement/technique from the form and drill it x number of times solo. Then you can drill it with a partner. Then you can start trying to integrate it into a bit of sparing.

By the way, Spencer, your pole form does look like more of a standard staff or short spear form. Perhaps this is due to the length of the weapon. With a shorter pole/spear you'll be able to use both ends in parrying and attacking, whereas a really long, tapered weapon is primarily for the thrust and very slight parrying movements to regain the line of attack.

Note, I'm not saying it's bad. Just different than most wing chun long pole forms I've seen.

LoneTiger108

09-20-2011, 09:33 AM

By the way, Spencer, your pole form does look like more of a standard staff or short spear form. Perhaps this is due to the length of the weapon.

I appreciate your opinion, and you are correct. Almost all of my earlier training was done with a shorter gwan, but this was because longer ones were not available!!

My later filming has the full length white wax pole featured :) This performance was just a blitz at the SENI show.

With a shorter pole/spear you'll be able to use both ends in parrying and attacking, whereas a really long, tapered weapon is primarily for the thrust and very slight parrying movements to regain the line of attack.

The key word there is 'primarily' imho. I understand your view but I ask you this: Do you have a half 'point' or the 'half pole' in your form? You see, I have 6 points and the half pole/stick.

And what do you do when someone breaks your long range distance? With little choppers?? ;)

Note, I'm not saying it's bad. Just different than most wing chun long pole forms I've seen.

That will be because Lee Shings pole methods have never really been seen or explained to the public! Except through Austin Gohs teachings, and he himself has kept his pole to very close students I believe.

My Uncle Joe Lee is formidable with the pole and he also has quite a few close students but we all do keep quite low key. I am the loudest of us all!! :D

Sean66

09-20-2011, 01:55 PM

That will be because Lee Shings pole methods have never really been seen or explained to the public! Except through Austin Gohs teachings, and he himself has kept his pole to very close students I believe.

Well, if these methods are anything like what you showed in the demo, they're just typical short spear/staff techniques than can be seen in any number of systems.
But, hey, that's fine. Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

It's not the number of special techniques you have, but your mastery of a few simple ones that counts.

And what do you do when someone breaks your long range distance? With little choppers??

This is what that lateral striking is for. Can be seen at the beginning of the form. And if you fudge that up, you can always drop the **** thing and run for it!

anerlich

09-20-2011, 09:03 PM

Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

It's often inferior or at least questionable due to the lack of exposure to pressure testing.

Security through obscurity doesn't work in cryptography. Or martial arts.

If you want effective techniques, put them out there and have them scrutinised and tested by all comers. The best techniques are those that still work high percentage even if the other guy knows them.

LoneTiger108

09-21-2011, 02:59 AM

Well, if these methods are anything like what you showed in the demo, they're just typical short spear/staff techniques than can be seen in any number of systems.

Okay, you could be right. But show me any system that has the same form? You will not find any, because it belongs to Wing Chun ;) Or shall I say the Lee Shing family, to be precise. Inherited through Leung Yee Tai, according to the formal story.

But, hey, that's fine. Why do people always think that if something is rarely seen or kept only behind "closed" doors that it is somehow superior?

Seriously, I am not trying to come across as having anything 'superior' at all. In fact, I'm only putting my opinion, and experience here because I personally feel that my Sigung is, dare I say, quite under appreciated considering the time and effort he put into promtoing Ip Man and Wing Chun in Europe. This too is because he specifically shunned the money and fame thing because he simply enjoyed teaching as a hobby, it wasn't a business for him. Nothing 'secret' or 'closed door' about it.

Like many others here, because we are a little different there seems to be the same allregic reaction to our approach :rolleyes: But this is all I am trying to say; we are a little different, that's all. Nothing to do with 'superiority'.

This is what that lateral striking is for. Can be seen at the beginning of the form. And if you fudge that up, you can always drop the **** thing and run for it!

Yes, this 'lateral striking' you refer to is Lan Gwan, or barring stick which is practised more in our boon gwan sets. Even a longer pole can be turned from its middle, as it's only the angles that change.

Trying to utilise this method of the pole from 'one end' is quite dangerous, especially when you hold the very end of the pole, but it's still possible and has it's purpose, but I would say it's not as thorough as our approach. In general Wushu, they would call it Faa Gwan, or flower stick, because they don't really understand it or break it down. It's used as a distraction rather than specific close range attack/defence.

If you analyze the arm motions, this method is key to training all the looksau circles ;) Again, just my interpretation.

Grumblegeezer

09-21-2011, 05:50 PM

It's often inferior or at least questionable due to the lack of exposure to pressure testing.

If you want effective techniques, put them out there and have them scrutinised and tested by all comers. The best techniques are those that still work high percentage even if the other guy knows them.

In my lineage, the luk dim boon kwun techniques are also "kept close". Only high-level students are taught our version of the form, chi-kwun, and applications. There really isn't any testing, except with your own sifu and clan. I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

anerlich

09-21-2011, 06:08 PM

In my lineage, the luk dim boon kwun techniques are also "kept close". Only high-level students are taught our version of the form, chi-kwun, and applications. There really isn't any testing, except with your own sifu and clan. I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

It's not at all difficult (well, not hard to arrange) with unarmed arts (or, yes, pedants, unarmed aspects of "complete" arts like WC). Boxers, kickboxers, judoka, wrestlers, BJJ and MMA guys do it all the time.

Weapons are a bit more of a problem ... the sports chanbara stuff you used to see a decade or so ago was pretty lame as the types of sport weapons they used were more like whips than anything else.

Fencing is definitely within the Western MA tradition, and kendo the Eastern, You could argue these aren't realistic, but neither is what passes for "weapons sparring" in many places.

The Savate org in Oz held a La Canne tournament her not so long ago. I didn't see it, but it sounded like a success and a step in the right direction.

And of course, there's always the Dog Brothers and their approach.

Eric_H

09-21-2011, 06:12 PM

maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

You'll need some hefty hand/wrist and throat guards. Even the throat guards on the escrima helmets I use wouldn't stand up to a well driven biu gwan. Probably a steel gorget, escrima helmet, lacrosse gloves, zoombang armor/joint guards and it could be done.

You're looking at a $500+ armor bill per person though. Even then I'm not sure the top of the head protection on the escrima helmets is enough.

Xiao3 Meng4

09-21-2011, 06:33 PM

It might be cheaper to make a Shinai-style Luk Dim Boon Gwun and use Kendo Gear.

LoneTiger108

09-22-2011, 03:59 AM

I wonder what would happen if all the secrecy stuff were thrown out the window and people tried getting together to really test how this stuff works... maybe even suiting up and going at it with some real contact. If that's even possible? Any thoughts?

It's possible, but even with the safest protection methods around you have to expect to be hurt imho. This is weaponry we're talking about here. And the LDBG is the king of all pole methods! It's a killing method, so in hindsight competitions seem a bit crazy.

You must also question 'why'? Why do we want to compete against eachother? Is it really neccessary?

It might be cheaper to make a Shinai-style Luk Dim Boon Gwun and use Kendo Gear.

Hmm You mean make our pole much lighter and limit our mobility and vision with 'armour'? I wouldn't want that.

What is wrong with skill based competitions, rather than fighting? Showing your level of skill in a 'test' of sorts seems to at least be a way for us all to see and share what we do.

Fighting for competition with blades or poles seems a bit restrictive and ultimately destructive to the original methods Wing Chun is known for imho. Do we really want to see that?

wingchunIan

09-22-2011, 05:20 AM

Okay, you could be right. But show me any system that has the same form? You will not find any, because it belongs to Wing Chun ;) Or shall I say the Lee Shing family, to be precise. Inherited through Leung Yee Tai, according to the formal story.

I'd actually be quite interested to hear how your teaching suggests that the pole form / techniques were devised / introduced, its origins etc. It would also be interesting to hear from others on the subject

CFT

09-22-2011, 06:31 AM

What is wrong with skill based competitions, rather than fighting? Showing your level of skill in a 'test' of sorts seems to at least be a way for us all to see and share what we do.I'm sure Chan Yu Min did more than a few 'tests' to get the title of '7 province King of poles'.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ChanYuMin

Said to be most famous for his abilities with the six-and-a-half point pole, Chan Yiu-Min earned the title of Chut Sang Gwun Wong (Qi Sheng Gu Wang, King of the Pole of Seven Provinces) by defeating all challengers in a great tournament. The trophy, an engraved pole as thick as an arm, was said to have been hung above the door of his own school.

LoneTiger108

09-22-2011, 06:42 AM

I'm sure Chan Yu Min did more than a few 'tests' to get the title of '7 province King of poles'.

I'm sure he did, but that's a bit of a miscomparison imho because back then they got onto the leitai in the village square and just fought! NO PADS ;) AND REAL POLES! ;) :D

And FWIW, My Sigung also had a similar title his students referred to as 'King of Stick' from his unbeatable weaponry fights. But again, nobody would know because nobody has asked or talked about that sort of thing in many years.

And I do not recall any stories of him fighting other Wing Chun people with his stick, it was other systems and stylists! :)

LoneTiger108

09-22-2011, 06:52 AM

I'd actually be quite interested to hear how your teaching suggests that the pole form / techniques were devised / introduced, its origins etc. It would also be interesting to hear from others on the subject

You have been taught by a good colleague Ian, so I would be happy to share here. If you have further detailed questions then just email me privately.

If you are talking about the straight line methods of WCK - Jeet Sin Kuen, then the poles first point, which most people call biu gwan or cheurng gwan is the origin of such methods. Basically, the pole IS the straight line between you and your opponent, and there are many angles and curvatures of this line to study and practice fme.

This line is also not to be restricted to square facing body methods, as our 1st point teaches the side body method (which still has straight line strategies!) and how to penetrate the centre line defence of most weaponry players.

The 'His-story' of the pole and how we claim it was inherited into our lineage is different than the mainstream, in that it wasn't Leung Yee Tais method. It was his teachers and grandteachers method! And that history is from another style, namely Hung Gar Kuen, so I guess this is why such ideas were hidden.

Well, until Shaolin Weng Chun and HFY arrived...

CFT

09-22-2011, 06:54 AM

The difference between competition and training/testing. For training you have to pad up.

LoneTiger108

09-22-2011, 07:09 AM

The difference between competition and training/testing. For training you have to pad up.

And competitions?? :confused:

FME It is very evident upon touching pole to pole who has the upper hand and who is better imho just like it is when we touch hands. So the majority of times I have been in such scenarios the other person just pulls back in acceptance ;) No point in killing eachother!!

But I would love to cross poles with other, more experienced fighters as most opportunities I have had I knew the result before we even touched poles!!! :rolleyes:

wingchunIan

09-22-2011, 02:58 PM

You have been taught by a good colleague Ian, so I would be happy to share here. If you have further detailed questions then just email me privately.

Thanks Spencer, really just interested to hear everyone's ideas of where the pole moves came from and when they became part of the Wing Chun system. I find hearing the different takes on the origins and history of the art fascinating and a pleasant distraction from pointless slag fests.

anerlich

09-23-2011, 12:17 AM

My Sigung also had a similar title his students referred to as 'King of Stick'

I have that title too, but for different reasons.

bennyvt

09-23-2011, 02:37 AM

He said king of not can't stop playing with

LoneTiger108

09-23-2011, 04:26 AM

I find hearing the different takes on the origins and history of the art fascinating and a pleasant distraction from pointless slag fests.

I know exactly what you mean :rolleyes: but also see that I bring a lot of criticism on myself because sometime I do get a bit over animated here!!

But man, the last 2 posts sum up the sort of crass humour you have to put up with on KFO! And sometimes I do think certain things are not just said in light humour either...

bennyvt

09-23-2011, 04:44 AM

"But man, the last 2 posts sum up the sort of crass humour you have to put up with on KFO!"

I feel like I got slapped by my nan.
Maybe you dont know many aussies we all like to have a laugh.

GlennR

09-23-2011, 05:44 AM

I feel like I got slapped by my nan.
Maybe you dont know many aussies we all like to have a laugh.[/QUOTE]

Hey Benny, i think Spencer does get a bit serious sometimes

ps. Bill still here???????

Phil Redmond

09-23-2011, 05:50 PM

Lee Shings first Wing Chun Sifu (according to Legend lol!) was Ng Jung Sok, so he was Ip Mans junior brother.
If you're refering to Ng Jung So, he was Yip Man's SENIOR and the one responsible for teaching Yip Man since Chan Wah Shun was aging. That's common knowledge. Don't believe me. Do some research.

Phil Redmond

09-23-2011, 06:01 PM

Runlikehell

09-23-2011, 06:35 PM

If you're refering to Ng Jung So, he was Yip Man's SENIOR and the one responsible for teaching Yip Man since Chan Wah Shun was aging. That's common knowledge. Don't believe me. Do some research.

Spencer may be saying that Lee Shing is Yip Man's sidai, by virtue of learning under Ng Jung So, after he had taken over for Chan Wah Shun.

Though, I believe that would make Yip Man Lee Shing's sisuk.
I don't know, I wasn't there.

anerlich

09-23-2011, 06:55 PM

But man, the last 2 posts sum up the sort of crass humour you have to put up with on KFO! And sometimes I do think certain things are not just said in light humour either

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.

Phil Redmond

09-23-2011, 07:30 PM

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.
Andrew, fighters see one thing and . . . . . ;)

Phil Redmond

09-23-2011, 07:32 PM

Standard Aussie response to the name dropping, and, um, "stick-measuring" that you guys were starting to bore us with.
That saying works in the "hood" too.

Graham H

09-24-2011, 02:25 AM

read this:
http://www.wingchun.co.nz/tabid/61/Default.aspx
Research is the key to knowledge. I don't believe anything ANYONE tells me without proof. I've had people tell me all sorts of stories. But without proof, it's just a story. This is fact though.

How do you know Phil? :confused:

If it is true about Yip Man teaching people depending on certain factors then that means that nobody can be sure what they are practicing. Even you! It would also seem logical to say that Yip Man only taught a very small group of people that he trusted, that were loyal, that were phyically and mentally capable, and that he accepted as friends. The only person that could reveal that knowledge is Yip Man himself and that will never be possible.

It will just be best to accept that for most if not all of us we are practicing a version of VT based on Yip Man's personal feelings towards our teachers or teachers teachers. That would explain why some is ludicrous and some is not.

If Yip Man was such a gifted fighter and respected for his skills outside of his system, in the community and generally in that time period I don't beleive for one minute that 99% of the tripe that is currently on YouTube and being practiced in many "Yip Man" Kung Fu schools is anything more that just made up junk.

GH

k gledhill

09-25-2011, 03:19 PM

Chan Kin Man LDBG Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww45MJ356LQ&feature=related)

Liddel

09-26-2011, 04:33 PM

In SLT CK BJ we have opening actions that help measure the centerline and elbow space and define the very basic positions.

The same is true of the LDB. An experienced teacher/user should pick the pole up and use techniques that help you measure your hand position and width on the pole before you do anything with it. This is the first thing i look at when accessing my own and others LDB skills.

I think there a very few left who have been taught the LDB from form to application.

Many hold the pole with a grip to far from the end and to wide apart for them to have been taught the Ip Man VT LDB. Many just pick it up and start swinging and thrusting.

Major oversight IMO. And this is just ONE aspect.

If you look a a lot of the Forms out there keep a eye out for the many differences in how the pole is held and ask yourself what downstream effects this has on application.

Those with experience with the pole will know the differences in force that occur between different hand positions and those that have been taught application will feel the major differences from Chi Kwan right through to sparring especially against the BJD.

There are people with fluid looking forms out there, great.
But anyone with experience will know fluid forms with poor hand positions will translate to major problems when actually trying to apply the principals to self protection.... very akin to the shocking BJD forms out there with crazy moves like Gap Do on the centerline.

Its with this idea that i agree with Graham (scary thought)... a lot of the LDB forms etc out there is peoples OWN interpretation rather than it being passed down from Ip Man or Lok Yiu.

Graham H

09-27-2011, 02:14 AM

LoneTiger108

09-27-2011, 03:57 AM

An experienced teacher/user should pick the pole up and use techniques that help you measure your hand position and width on the pole before you do anything with it. This is the first thing i look at when accessing my own and others LDB skills.

Okay I agre with this wholeheartedly, and as I've been asked to keep on topic I will ask you a question: Do you learn hard and soft pole applications?

I was taught that the pole is primarily Yum Yeurng, it has gong and yau (hard and soft) power development. FME and from exchanges with both my family and Ip family, it is noticable that Ip Mans HK version of the LDBG is hard, preferring the use of a short grip (approx shoulder/waist width) and whereas we do use this with the form, our 1st point is mainly learnt as a yao gwan, with a wider grip. We also use the term 'Lorng Gwan' which is to be seen as a 'wave pole' not Lung as in Dragon ;)

I think there a very few left who have been taught the LDB from form to application.

Agreed 100%

Many hold the pole with a grip to far from the end and to wide apart for them to have been taught the Ip Man VT LDB.

You answer this in your statement. That's Ip Man VT LDB, if you want to call it that, and you must understand that he only taught it this way because of limitations to space whilst in HK. Lok Yiu was one of his most formidable pole players (according to my own Sifu) and I would think you know what I mean by hard/soft pole and how the methods must change in restricted spaces? It's common sense.

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside?? Practising with eachother fiercly? Maybe even on those roof tops or in the parks? No? Is this because there is nobody still alive that can comment, or simply because this didn't happen?

Graham H

09-27-2011, 05:39 AM

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside?? Practising with eachother fiercly? Maybe even on those roof tops or in the parks? No? Is this because there is nobody still alive that can comment, or simply because this didn't happen?

Yes I have........many stories that have come via Wong Shun Leung through his many students in Europe. Also from students that were trained "outside" under WSL's supervision in Hong Kong.

Hard and soft pole? Wide and short grip? Yip Man only taught it that way because of space? Your stories are getting more and more ludicrous as time goes on.

I wish you would stop trying to blow smoke up peoples asses!

GH

LoneTiger108

09-27-2011, 06:09 AM

I wish you would stop trying to blow smoke up peoples asses!

I wish you would stop taking such a narrow view of my questions dude. Not trying to blow smoke up anyones a$$, I'm asking questions because of the post :confused:

Tell me, who trained with WSL while he was learning the pole from Ip Man? I'm interested to know...

And these are the terms I mentioned (albeit pinched from another thread!)

剛 / Gang / Gong = Hard or Rigid

柔 / Rou / Yau = Soft

Liddel

09-27-2011, 04:33 PM

Do you learn hard and soft pole applications?

Spencer, the way i learnt was to use the pole for fighting. So in one respect -Yes- i learnt hard and soft applications, because hard and soft applications is a bi product of pole use full stop.
But in reference to your question - did i learnt hard applications one day then on another we said lets look at soft applications -No-

We address application based on needs. Whats given to me vs what do i need to do to protect myself. It all stems from Chi Kwan, just like the H2H applications stem from Chi Sau. and BJD applications stem from Chi Do. If you don't have Chi Sau what you have is Forms and a whole lot of guess work with regard to application.

That said all guess work aint bad, i mean fighting isnt rocket science as much as some VT folk like to pretend, but just dont tell me it came from Ip Mans ghost :)

How many BJD and LDB form videos can you find around the net ?
How many Chi DO and Chi Kwan videos can you find ?

So disproportionate IMO, ask yourself why ? and then ask yourself which is more important form or application ?

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...

it is noticable that Ip Mans HK version of the LDBG is hard, preferring the use of a short grip

Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

Despite what many people say about the inconsistent teaching of YM which i think is BS. We as YM VT people don't take kindly to flying elbow and rely heavily on elbow position for power generation...

So because we ARE consistent in theory and application - this of course this lends to the pole. A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.
So you have to use other sources of power hence a small change in grip can make a big change in other Kwan techniques IME. Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage :p

Have you heard of any storys of Ip Mans students learning the pole outside??

Im a VT guy, of course i've heard stories... thats all most of our community care about.

What i care about is abilities, and that said - with regard to the LDB - if you cant walk.. then i find it hard to believe you can run :o (not you specifically spencer :) )

GlennR

09-27-2011, 04:44 PM

Spencer, the way i learnt was to use the pole for fighting. So in one respect -Yes- i learnt hard and soft applications, because hard and soft applications is a bi product of pole use full stop.
But in reference to your question - did i learnt hard applications one day then on another we said lets look at soft applications -No-

We address application based on needs. Whats given to me vs what do i need to do to protect myself. It all stems from Chi Kwan, just like the H2H applications stem from Chi Sau. and BJD applications stem from Chi Do. If you don't have Chi Sau what you have is Forms and a whole lot of guess work with regard to application.

That said all guess work aint bad, i mean fighting isnt rocket science as much as some VT folk like to pretend, but just dont tell me it came from Ip Mans ghost :)

How many BJD and LDB form videos can you find around the net ?
How many Chi DO and Chi Kwan videos can you find ?

So disproportionate IMO, ask yourself why ? and then ask yourself which is more important form or application ?

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...

Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

Despite what many people say about the inconsistent teaching of YM which i think is BS. We as YM VT people don't take kindly to flying elbow and rely heavily on elbow position for power generation...

So because we ARE consistent in theory and application - this of course this lends to the pole. A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.
So you have to use other sources of power hence a small change in grip can make a big change in other Kwan techniques IME. Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage :p

Im a VT guy, of course i've heard stories... thats all most of our community care about.

What i care about is abilities, and that said - with regard to the LDB - if you cant walk.. then i find it hard to believe you can run :o (not you specifically spencer :) )

Nice post Liddel

Graham H

09-28-2011, 01:08 AM

I wish you would stop taking such a narrow view of my questions dude. Not trying to blow smoke up anyones a$$, I'm asking questions because of the post :confused:

Tell me, who trained with WSL while he was learning the pole from Ip Man? I'm interested to know...

And these are the terms I mentioned (albeit pinched from another thread!)

剛 / Gang / Gong = Hard or Rigid

柔 / Rou / Yau = Soft

Whatever! We don't practice the same Martial Art so how can we confer?

LoneTiger108

09-28-2011, 08:27 AM

Such a shame applications are for the most part lost, but just like speaking another language if you don't use it every day...

Well, I'm happy to say applications are very much alive fme dude but all said and done, I find your post one of the good ones (as usual!)

Im not that familiar with families outside my own spencer so take this with a grain of salt -

I would ask why not? But I don't want to veer the thread off subject (again lol!)

A longer grip lessens or in some cases eliminates the ability to use the elbows to generate power.

Totally incorrect imho, just a different type of power, hence 'soft' power.

Short grip makes the pole more alive for us thrusts can have more power in the tip you have greater control over direction from the front hand and more leverage with certain habbit actions IMO.

I don't agree with all of that, more alive:yes, greater control:no. imho of course!

And if you look at BJD techs against the pole, we look to cut the hands and get in close. Wider grips make for a closer target for the Sword user... You can lessen your own range advantage :p

Only if you're the 6 million dollar man and move in slo-mo ;)

On the point about videos and their availability I agree, which is why I have asked a number of times for people who post on this subject to show us what they mean (you included lol!) and I bet that when you have put something to camera and review it back you will understand why there isn't much of it online.

Even my own example on here is 10 years old, but it's better than sharing NOTHING like so many others (and I don't mean you either!) :)

LoneTiger108

09-28-2011, 08:28 AM

Whatever! We don't practice the same Martial Art so how can we confer?

My point made...

Liddel

09-28-2011, 03:07 PM

In relation to my wider grip comment -

Totally incorrect imho, just a different type of power, hence 'soft' power.

Spencer, i totally see that it's a different type of power - but not one thats part of the rest of my VT hence not needing it, rather than not seeing value in it.

Rather than writing a long post trying to get my point across ill just ask -
Do you use other martial art techniques in your VT... say for instance a Boxing Right hook ?

A totally valuable and proven method but outside the confines of an already established fighting strategy and mindset of mine - VT - Same applies to my LDB Grip.

Im a Sifu Yau Ving Tsun operator. We just don't advocate wide grips and jumping in H2H or weapons use. Its just not OUR mindset. :o

I don't agree with all of that, more alive:yes, greater control:no. imho of course!

Greater control in terms of when i use a certain LDB action... against a specific coming attack. If we have different needs then we have different solutions.

Dont forget my comments are in relation to my specific actions and my specific strategy.

If one or both of those change then different techniques are warranted.

This is why i take the high road we i see others with drastically different habbits than i.

I assume it must mean we have a different applications rather than just out right saying others are wrong and my way is the right way, cause it really doesn't matter with regard to my own abilities.

Unless its Gap Do on the center line or Guarn Sau against a round kick.... each to their own. :p

Even though we may share history Spencer, do you find more in common between our lineages or more differences ? and if so.. where do most of the differences lie IYO ?

Liddel

09-28-2011, 03:27 PM

As a small example so you get my approach -

Pause the vid originally posted on page one.. at 14 secs or anywhere after the guys thrusts the pole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xm0eiWTLGc&feature=player_embedded

Note how his wider grip means his rear hand is nearer the arm pit rather than the elbow joint. Now note the angle of his wrist as a result. It has the palm facing up.

We prefer and advocate different mechanics.

A shoulder width grip would mean when thrust, the rear hand is closer to the elbow (for many reasons we see this as a positive) and a closer grip also means when thrust you can still maintain a controlled grip with the palm facing left to right. And it wouldn't be right in front of your face as seen in the clip.

Under Sifu Lok or my own sifu with the horse that high, you wouldn't have learnt the form yet you would still be practicing the arrow horse trying to get your upper legs horizontal. And still practicing Dan Kwan trying to get you energy to the tip of the pole, which you would find difficult with a wider grip.

Notice how the tip of the pole is dead. all the energy generated by the horse and arms is stopped from reaching the tip by his lead hand.

I find its just not the specific techniques that differ these days but also the standard people reach before moving onto more advanced levels.

LoneTiger108

09-29-2011, 02:25 AM

Spencer, i totally see that it's a different type of power - but not one thats part of the rest of my VT hence not needing it, rather than not seeing value in it.

Rather than writing a long post trying to get my point across ill just ask -
Do you use other martial art techniques in your VT... say for instance a Boxing Right hook ?

No. I use a right hook that originates from lan sau arm alignment, so it's very close side body and has a different energy to a boxers right hook/swing.

I try my hardest not to 'mix' anything because for me everything is here already in the system I learnt, including terms. We also have a chao kuen, which operates like an uppercut, and this too is drilled through pole methods.

Even though we may share history Spencer, do you find more in common between our lineages or more differences ? and if so.. where do most of the differences lie IYO ?

I would have to see examples to make an asessment dude!

Personally, I would think we have more common drills but be totally different with techniques, as I do see these as personal or individual additions. The methods of Wing Chun 'should' be universal, but on my first outing in 1997 I was made aware that what I had seen and learnt was not as common as I thought! Not even within our own Lee Shing family!!

Liddel

09-29-2011, 06:28 PM

No. I use a right hook that originates from lan sau arm alignment, so it's very close side body and has a different energy to a boxers right hook/swing.

Exactly my point though. Its different because the habbits from boxing are not a part of your VT. you have your own techs for developing and using power for the hook, so you use that.

Same with the wider grip for the LDB. There isnt much you can achieve with a wider grip that i can't with my more narrow grip but the application and or overall tech will differ.

Personally my Lan Sau has nothing to do with a hook and im not a big fan of those that use and or derive a hook from the CK action. Especially as it has a very important use for me in close quarters thats nothing to do with an attack.

I hope you as well as others that see it as a hook also see the advantages in regainig the center and other contact advantages etc

But if your hooks the biz, good for you :)

We also have a chao kuen, which operates like an uppercut, and this too is drilled through pole methods.

Interesting, my uppercuts are born from CK.

When you say they are drilled throught the pole methods, what do you mean by this.. like in what way ?

LoneTiger108

09-30-2011, 06:10 AM

Exactly my point though. Its different because the habbits from boxing are not a part of your VT.

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits :confused:

Same with the wider grip for the LDB. There isnt much you can achieve with a wider grip that i can't with my more narrow grip but the application and or overall tech will differ.

I would argue that. They're totally different in application and drill result. They're not supposed to be compared with eachother, like what's best?? They work in unison and both need specific attention imho.

Personally my Lan Sau has nothing to do with a hook and im not a big fan of those that use and or derive a hook from the CK action.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

Interesting, my uppercuts are born from CK.

When you say they are drilled throught the pole methods, what do you mean by this.. like in what way ?

Again, my uppercut didn't originate from CK, just from good basic foundation.

Drilling for me is when you increase the intensity of a method for extended periods of time until your body has absorbed the method completely, so when I drill my uppercut with the pole the weight is gradually increased until I find my maximum and the method is repeated as above. I then would remove the pole and feel the benefit of using the weight ;)

Everything I have drilled has gone through the use of weaponry and/or equipment like sandbags or wooden man, but that was all quite a while ago!! It's a bit more refined now and less intense...

Graham H

09-30-2011, 07:19 AM

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits :confused:

I would argue that.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

Lan Sau is part of Chum Kiu for a good reason. It is introduced in SLT but there is no application there. Just elbow position.

Again, my uppercut didn't originate from CK, just from good basic foundation.

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

Drilling for me is when you increase the intensity of a method for extended periods of time until your body has absorbed the method completely, so when I drill my uppercut with the pole the weight is gradually increased until I find my maximum and the method is repeated as above. I then would remove the pole and feel the benefit of using the weight ;)

Uppercut with the pole?? WTF

I think that Liddel has a good idea of Ving Tsun. His ideas behind the pole are sound.

GH

Graham H

09-30-2011, 07:20 AM

.................apart from uppercuts in CK of course. That is just mental. :D

GH

LoneTiger108

09-30-2011, 07:56 AM

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

Funny that. ;) Considering the post I wrote, which was deleted by Dave, outlining why the Lee Shing Family maybe quite different from others was because he had Fatshan (Foshan), Kulo and HK versions or influences in his Wing Chun teachings.

Liddel

10-02-2011, 03:53 AM

Why would I want boxing habits? My habits are Wing Chun habits

You don't. My point is, you don't want non VT punches (the Boxing Hook) as much as i don't want the wide grip for the LDB (non VT for me). Even though both of these actions has sound value in fighting.

Lansau (for me) does not originate from CK, so I don't get what your argument here is.

This is why i don't post as often as others here :o There is no argument.
Just an explanation of my own thinking vs what you have put forward.
Each to their own.

Lan Sau is part of Chum Kiu for a good reason. It is introduced in SLT but there is no application there. Just elbow position.

Graham thats a shame. Lan Sau for me isn't in SLT, this to me is a static position marking the transition to either Double Fut Sau or Double Jum Sau.

There is application for Lan Sau from CK IMO and IME the difference between those that do and dont have application can be seen in the lan sau's direction when used in CK.

Some forms see it come across horizontally from the Bong - others have it moving left to right with the elbow lowered as you turn.

There is application in there for everyone to use in Chi sau if needed.

There are no hooks or uppercuts in Ip Man Ving Tsun. I know there are in some Foshan lineages.

I have an uppercut in CK so clearly some of us have it, what ever thats worth to you.

Spencer, clearly we have some differences in the pole work. Everyone has differences, good luck with training. :D

Graham H

10-02-2011, 05:38 AM

Graham thats a shame. Lan Sau for me isn't in SLT, this to me is a static position marking the transition to either Double Fut Sau or Double Jum Sau.

A shame?? I don't get it. Lan Sau isnt in your SLT eh? Strange. The movements are double lan sau - double fak sau - double lan sau - double jum sau. So what is your idea of why we do these action?

There is application for Lan Sau from CK IMO and IME the difference between those that do and dont have application can be seen in the lan sau's direction when used in CK.Some forms see it come across horizontally from the Bong - others have it moving left to right with the elbow lowered as you turn. There is application in there for everyone to use in Chi sau if needed.

What is your purpose for Lan Sau?

I have an uppercut in CK so clearly some of us have it, what ever thats worth to you.

I used to think there was an uppercut in CK. If I performed this action and asked somebody (who didn't know) what that action was they would say it was an uppercut. It looks like one but it's not. What is your idea behind the reason we have CK and why would you use an uppercut?

The general idea behind CK about making "arm bridge" contact or "sinking/searching bridges" is wrong. Leave the bridge sinking to the army. That idea is nonsense.

The problem is when people take the literal cantonese translations and all sorts of problems can occur. "Sticky arms" is another wing chun paradox. ;)

GH

Liddel

10-02-2011, 08:25 PM

What is your purpose for Lan Sau?

First and foremost, regaining face to face alignment and controlling the center. But this threads about LDB so..

I used to think there was an uppercut in CK. If I performed this action and asked somebody (who didn't know) what that action was they would say it was an uppercut. It looks like one but it's not.

Mine is and has been taught this way, we have the not so popular 'ginger punch' as the connecting fist on the end of it as well :)

The general idea behind CK about making "arm bridge" contact or "sinking/searching bridges" is wrong. Leave the bridge sinking to the army. That idea is nonsense.

The problem is when people take the literal cantonese translations and all sorts of problems can occur. "Sticky arms" is another wing chun paradox. ;)

I kinda agree, thats exactly why i could care less about the english meanings of terms, but each to their own.

If we cant agree on the names of actions, i call it Fut Sau you call it Fak Sau... why get into similarities etc.