Forward Thrust Knife VS Hammer Down Knife

[ginosifu]

Since I have decided to teach the Angry Monkey Double Dagger set, I thought we might have a discussion on which style of dagger fighting do you prefer?

Forward knife Thrust with the blade coming out of your tiger's mouth. (index finger and web of thumb):

http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/spidey321/HPIM2754.jpg

Hammer down knife or ice pick with the blade coming out of the pinky finger:

http://www.sogknivescollectors.com/attachments/Image/SOG_Mini_Pentagon/SOG_mini_pentagon_hammer_grip.jpg

I have trained in both methods but prefer the downward knife. What are your methods and what do you prefer?

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

I use both, sometimes flipping the blade during the technique.
Saber grip allows for greater distance in slashing cuts, and enables forward thrusts and back cuts (if you use a double edged blade), while reverse grip allows for hooking and trapping, and guards the inner wrist's tendons and blood vessels. Reverse grip also allows better concealment prior to engaging the attacker.
Gino, if you prefer reverse grip, you may be interested in the Al-Mar Warrior. It was designed by CMAist and the curvature of the blade contours to the forearm. It was modeled after a mantis' hook! Very cool. Not sure if they are still in production, though.

[Frost]

Although its been a while since I trained with knifes (being a sports lad these days) from all the studies I have seen, accounts i have read in the papers and anecdotal evidence (on here and talking to guys that have been in fights) most serious injuries from knife attacks (and most fatalities) happen from stabs not slashes, and most serious guys with a knife seem to go for the machine gun rapid stabbing action to overwhelm their opponent and finish him quickly. which makes me wonder why the ice pick grip would be anyones first choice: its seems to be mainly a slashing hold, making it hard to stab unless you raise it above your head or bring it close to the body in order to get the point towards your opponent, and where as the first grip allows for multiple stabbing and slashing at extended range it seem to me to reduce not increases your reach

But like I say its been years since I played with a knife so will be interested in peoples opinions on the subject

[David Jamieson]

ok...lol

no guard would keep you to slashing... if you try to punch a hole, it's likely that you will cut your own fingers because there is no guard to stop them running down the length of the blade as you try to penetrate with it.

anyway, if you wanna get an understanding of what grip works for you and what techs are quick and high percent, get a tire stack and start practicing with it.

even a tire on a rope is good, but a stack on a post is good.

you will find that after a few slashes and punches that you are now encountering difficulty with weapon retention. After a while, your strikes are getting weaker and weaker and your penetrations aren't that good. But, you will understand that just because you have a knife in your hand, you don't necessarily have the advantage.

It's difficult. It's even more difficult to have the correct intention to stick a knife in someone when you have a clear mind.

In fact, I would say intention is the most difficult thing to instill in someone or to train in yourself. To me, it seems it's one of those things you either have or you don't.

anyway, no guard = not a preferred knife for me personally. lock folders and all that are novelty knives. a Bowie with a guard or a dagger with a guard, that is a knife for fighting.

little folders are for camping, gutting fish and taking knots out of shoes in my opinion. It's a utility knife more than an effective weapon. Unless someone goes all bruce lee, in which case, yes, a pencil is as good as a gun in a pinch when it comes to needing to put a hole in someones body. :)

[TenTigers]

no guard knives are usually a secondary or backup weapon,(many FMAists carry more than one knife so that they can deploy their weapon from wherever their hand is.) or for carrying concealed if you are wearing a dress suit or something. Folders are also for concealed carry, although there are some larger folders, such as the Applegate folder.
That being said, the fighting folders and smaller knives being sold by the better brands have contours and indentations to prevent slippage onto the blade during thrusts.
Most of my cutting is with slash technique, wrist, tendons, neck, brachial artery, lower abdominal, femoral artery,etc. so I can get in and out quick. When doing thrusts usually going towards neck, abdominal aeorta, armpit, subclavian artery, pernium, etc.
If you have any experience with a Bowie type fighting knife, there are extended snapping flick cuts using the reverse grip that actually have quite a bit of range, but are more for a set-up strike than a finishing cut.

[Jimbo]

The best knife is the knife you'll have on you when you need it. Unfortunately, for most folks, that won't be a big Bowie knife. I do agree with DJ that intention is everything, and that a knife (any knife) will do you no good if you lack the determination to really use it.

However, I would point out that folders are not novelty items. There are a lot of people who have been killed with folding knives, and not necessarily wielded by trained knife fighters or hardened criminals. I even saw a teen who'd been stabbed to death by his father. The weapon? A regular little red-handled, non-locking Swiss Army knife. It's even been said that Billy the Kid killed his first man by using the broken half-inch blade on a pocketknife. There's a saying that goes (I'm paraphrasing): It doesn't matter if I kill you with a bomb, a machine gun, a pistol, a sword, or a 3" blade; dead is dead.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Both holds are good, with pros and cons on both sides.
In terms of versatility the "sabre grip" has the edge, but in terms of raw power, the "hammer grip" gets the nod.
That said the issue is hoe they are trained and what they are used for.

[ginosifu]

Great points everyone. I realize that everyone's point are valid and DJ thanks for pointing out the possibility of sliding down the blade.

When I teach the Daggers or Modern self defense courses we emphasize the use of anything at hand. Whether it's a pair of scissors, or a cell phone or even a key chain, everything becomes the "Daggers". I like the Ice Pick or Hammer down method because I can place my thumb over the lid (top of the dagger as pictured above) of any weapon in my hand and use it for slashes and pokes.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...;)

[David Jamieson]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...;)

training with knives, training. lol :p

I've been cut though...and shot.

fml I guess.

For the record, only bored poverty stricken people with no hope bother with knife fighting as a pastime.

The rest of us train and talk about it.

still, I bet you could take a poor hobo even if he had a knife. :p

[lkfmdc]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...;)

I have actual experience fighting with wives

[David Jamieson]

I never shaved your wife, not once!

[ginosifu]

Gino, if you prefer reverse grip, you may be interested in the Al-Mar Warrior. It was designed by CMAist and the curvature of the blade contours to the forearm. It was modeled after a mantis' hook! Very cool. Not sure if they are still in production, though.

I never heard of it... I'll look it up and see.


I have actual experience fighting with wives

I am afraid of my wife. She said she would KEEEEeeeeel me if I ever cheated on her. I am not sure how much more knife fighting experience she has got on me. Man... I get scared when she's in the kitchen working on dinner with a big chopper in her hands.

ginosifu

[-N-]

I get scared when she's in the kitchen working on dinner with a big chopper in her hands.

The worst is when they look at you and say, "You'll fall asleep sooner or later."

[TenTigers]

The worst is when they look at you and say, "You'll fall asleep sooner or later."
That's why I sleep on my stomach.
(especially after the whole Lorraina Bobbit incident)

[taai gihk yahn]

The worst is when they look at you and say, "You'll fall asleep sooner or later."

3 people never to pisz off:
1) someone who prepares and serves ur food
2) someone who shaves u or cuts ur hair
3) someone who sleeps next to u

[Lee Chiang Po]

Reading all these posts makes me think of the chinese gangs and the big knife fight.
Knife fighting is one of the most dangerous situations you can ever be in other than being threatened at gun point. If you are the cutter, it is best not to allow the cutee to see the knife until he feels it. If you are faced off with a knife, the knife forward is the only real option here. Stabbing will usually do less damage to a person than a slicing cut. It can kill you, but not usually quickly, and it is very difficult to achieve against a person looking directly at you and with his very own knife. The smart knife fighter will concentrate on the knife arm. Keeping your own knife in position to cut at his arm or hand as he thrusts his own knife at you. Cut the wrist and not only do you bleed him, but you sever tendons so that he can not hold the knife. Do that and you can then cut him any way you want and not get cut back. Just remember though, a single, simple cut can bleed you to death. I only would use a lock blade knife, no need for a guard on it, and only one sharp edge. Keep it razor sharp. The best knife is actually a straight razor with the blade broken in half.
The lock keeps it from closing on your own hand, and since you do not stab with it, the hand guard is not necessary. And the single edge keeps you from cutting yourself. If you are not in a foul mood and not wanting to kill the guy, a cut most anywhere will end the fight. You just can't be afraid to cut someone if you need to. You are sure to go to jail for it, but there is this old saying. It is best to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

[TenTigers]

3 people never to pisz off:
1) someone who prepares and serves ur food
2) someone who shaves u or cuts ur hair
3) someone who sleeps next to u

or your dentist, or your neurosurgeon, or your proctologist...

[Yum Cha]

I fought a knife once with rocks and won... Guy ran when a cricket ball sized nugget wizzed by his ear and hit his car... :D

Doesn't really count, but illustrates a point... Don't underestimate artillery and mobility.

Holding a knife in reverse grip lays it right into a whole scope of pak mei, and probably Mantis and WC techniques as well, I'd guess, amongst other short armed styles.

I practice with rubber training knives occasionally, I like Davids recommendation of old tyres..

The issue of hand sliding over the blade is a big one, especially for reverse grip. Another issue is frenzy. Calm and precise can be as deadly as a brutal attack.


As Lee points out, knife is a flexible weapon, a simple knick may solve a problem, yet you have a lethal weapon. Deep targets, surface targets... Work from the outside in...

Remember a story about an Italian Chinese Doctor who was robbed by a group of guys with knives in his shop. Few years back? He was a Martial artist, got cut, but disarmed one, and killed them all. They found the bodies staggered at different distances based on how far they got before they bled out. He knew where to cut...

[ginosifu]

3 people never to pisz off:
1) someone who prepares and serves ur food
2) someone who shaves u or cuts ur hair
3) someone who sleeps next to u

Once we were eating at a Chinese restaurant and got into an argument with the hostess (before the food was served). It was a stupid argument about the price of the food and what we supposed to be getting ans such. We all swear they spit in our food.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

or your dentist, or your neurosurgeon, or your proctologist...

well, TBH, I like it when my proctologist is a little agitated...

http://extrapolater.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/fletch_doctor.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Reading all these posts makes me think of the chinese gangs and the big knife fight.
Knife fighting is one of the most dangerous situations you can ever be in other than being threatened at gun point. If you are the cutter, it is best not to allow the cutee to see the knife until he feels it. If you are faced off with a knife, the knife forward is the only real option here. Stabbing will usually do less damage to a person than a slicing cut. It can kill you, but not usually quickly, and it is very difficult to achieve against a person looking directly at you and with his very own knife. The smart knife fighter will concentrate on the knife arm. Keeping your own knife in position to cut at his arm or hand as he thrusts his own knife at you. Cut the wrist and not only do you bleed him, but you sever tendons so that he can not hold the knife. Do that and you can then cut him any way you want and not get cut back. Just remember though, a single, simple cut can bleed you to death. I only would use a lock blade knife, no need for a guard on it, and only one sharp edge. Keep it razor sharp. The best knife is actually a straight razor with the blade broken in half.
The lock keeps it from closing on your own hand, and since you do not stab with it, the hand guard is not necessary. And the single edge keeps you from cutting yourself. If you are not in a foul mood and not wanting to kill the guy, a cut most anywhere will end the fight. You just can't be afraid to cut someone if you need to. You are sure to go to jail for it, but there is this old saying. It is best to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.


I dunno, I think the dude with the meat cleaver doing the enraged but targeted assaults was the best fighter in that video. he covered ground fast, got his strikes in and cleared the room and controlled it. The thing is, when you are in the fight, there isn't anything in your head, you are just doing. What you are doing is dependent on what and how you train. The training is a tool set for conducting oneself in the parameters of violence.

Having said that, anyone can sucker punch anyone else.

[Hardwork108]

wow - I didn't realize so many people here had actual experience fighting with knives...;)

Come on taai gihk, I mean most of them pretend authentic kung fu experience, why not add knife fighting to their "curriculum" as well? LOL! :D


As for the topic. I have no experience in knife fighting, but I have been told that for some reason a lot of street fighters here in Cali, Colombia prefer to use the hammer down attack. This does not seem to be case in various other countries, so it would be intriguing to know why they prefer this mode of attack.

Perhaps those few who actually have knife fighting experience shed some light on this question as well. :)

[Jimbo]

Once we were eating at a Chinese restaurant and got into an argument with the hostess (before the food was served). It was a stupid argument about the price of the food and what we supposed to be getting ans such. We all swear they spit in our food.

ginosifu

That reminds me of one incident when I worked at a Chinese restaurant, when I was around 20 years old. There was a large, well-to-do WASP family, and when they were finished, this one guy snapped his fingers and whistled at me as if to a dog, said "hey," then told me to pack up the leftovers to go. He had a very condescending manner I didn't like, and being young, I had less impulse control than I do now. I'll simply say that I 'developed a slight sneezing fit' in the back while packing up his food. Then I shook it all up, when he told me to keep it all separate.

Needless to say, I'm always respectful with food servers, if for no other reason than I was one at one time.

[TenTigers]

That reminds me of one incident when I worked at a Chinese restaurant, when I was around 20 years old. There was a large, well-to-do WASP family, and when they were finished, this one guy snapped his fingers and whistled at me as if to a dog, said "hey," then told me to pack up the leftovers to go. He had a very condescending manner I didn't like, and being young, I had less impulse control than I do now. I'll simply say that I 'developed a slight sneezing fit' in the back while packing up his food. Then I shook it all up, when he told me to keep it all separate.

Needless to say, I'm always respectful with food servers, if for no other reason than I was one at one time.
yeah, I also worked in a Chinese Restaurant when I was a youth.
Don't order the egg-drop soup if you pis$ off a worker.
-just sayin'

[omarthefish]

All these waiter stories......f'ing amateurs. :mad:

Not saying that sarcastically either. I was a professional waiter in the past. Not a summer job for pocket change, one of the actual professionals out there.

Different attitude. A pro does not spit in your food because a pro is in control of his station. Your nobodies lacky. You are the host and the customer is the guest. When you have honored guests over to your home, not a restaurant but your actual home, you don't spit in their food when you get insulted. The reason is because you are not as insecure as some poor hack waiter.


There was a large, well-to-do WASP family, and when they were finished, this one guy snapped his fingers and whistled at me as if to a dog...
Yeah, that happened to me once while I was at the table right next to the dude. My head snapped around so fast I almost got whiplash. Then I spoke to him in the tone of voice of a parent scolding a child and said, "I will be with you as soon as I am finished with these people over here!"

Might have gotten stiffed by the A-hole but he wasn't going to treat me well anyways. The table he interrupted though. . . $$$

Messing with a customers food is just passive aggressive BS that shows your in it for pride. A professional is doing his job for the $$$. ;)


========================
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. . .

[Hardwork108]

All these waiter stories......f'ing amateurs. :mad:

Not saying that sarcastically either. I was a professional waiter in the past. Not a summer job for pocket change, one of the actual professionals out there.

Different attitude. A pro does not spit in your food because a pro is in control of his station. Your nobodies lacky. You are the host and the customer is the guest. When you have honored guests over to your home, not a restaurant but your actual home, you don't spit in their food when you get insulted. The reason is because you are not as insecure as some poor hack waiter.

Yeah, that happened to me once while I was at the table right next to the dude. My head snapped around so fast I almost got whiplash. Then I spoke to him in the tone of voice of a parent scolding a child and said, "I will be with you as soon as I am finished with these people over here!"

Might have gotten stiffed by the A-hole but he wasn't going to treat me well anyways. The table he interrupted though. . . $$$

Messing with a customers food is just passive aggressive BS that shows your in it for pride. A professional is doing his job for the $$$. ;)


Very wise comments. The fact is that the professional waiter culture is something that one really appreciates and immediately feels "at home" whenever one enters a restaurant blessed with real waiters, who take genuine pleasure in their profession.

I have been exposed to this culture during my time in Rio de Janeiro, as well as during trips to Spain and France. It is a pleasure dining in an establishment where the waiters are not there just to make a quick buck.

As for pompous customers. I can't forget an incident on the Island of Tenerife where a rich looking couple in their sixties called the waiter by whistling at him. The waiter walks over calmly and politely and says words to the effect, " I am a human being, not a dog and you should not call me over by whistling at me." The couple looked very embarassed.

Of course, where I originally come from, we are very civilized, that means any disrespectful customer would end up wearing his table around his neck, courtesy of the waiter. :D

[ginosifu]

Come on taai gihk, I mean most of them pretend authentic kung fu experience, why not add knife fighting to their "curriculum" as well? As for the topic. I have no experience in knife fighting,

How do you know what kind of experience people have with knife fighting or even CMA in general? You make the same assumtion that bawang made here:


gino, you criticize kung fu guys who do modern sports fighting like mma and sanda and call them sellouts, but you are teaching a twirling dagger form. this is epitomy of the uselessness of kung fu. you are basically admitting teaching forms that are 100% flower.

if i am really telling an outrageous lie, you would not feel the need to defend yourself. i think i am right when i said you are hypocritical calling kung fu people sellouts, then sell kung fu as a business yourself.

playing around with empty hand forms is one thing, but flowery knife fighting techniques can get someone killed, that is irresponsible.

i havent seen the actual knife form from gino but i am assuming it involves lots of windmilling and hopping, a few cross legged stances maybe.


bawang:

you are assuming that I have no knife fighting skills, yes? How do know what kind of knife fighting skills that I have? How do you what the form is and how it can be broken down into self defense applications? Did you know my wife is Indonesian? and that I have spent time there learning Pencak Silat and some of the knife fighting skills of South East Asia. Did you know that my Shaolin teacher (John Ervin) and his teacher (Kwong Wing Lam) spent time (in China) with the Chinese military learning their knife fighting techniques? Did you know that my Monkey teacher (mooyingmantis) forced us to practice with real (sharpened) weapons and we ended up numerous cuts, broken fingers and other weapon injurys?

What the knife form looks like is irrelavant. The form teaches basic movements. Some people like to practice the form for cardio work outs. Some like to practice the form for the muscle memory while there is no partner for drills. You can do the form with dynamic tension for a workout.

What you need to do is research a bit more about who you are calling a hypocrit and a sell out. My kung fu has been proven on the street and in the ring. I teach traditional kung fu the way my teacher did and his teacher before him. In the more recent history of kung fu, many old school sifu's added more forms into their curriculum, but that does not mean that we have forsaken the fighting aspect.

ginsifu



My favorite 3 weapon for modern combat:

Cane: Cane can be carried at any time as a walking aid and use immediately in combat. I have Cane forms that I teach and it is similar to any sword or kali technique.

Kung Fu Fan: Fan is another weapon that can be carried legally at any time (unlike guns and swords). The Fan is good for quick distractions and also can be used to poke the eyes and various pressure points.

Daggers: Daggers are my favorite of all. Any small item that can fit into your hand is a dagger. Pen, scissors, keys, cell phone, fork, knife etc etc. Since they are small, they can be concealed and or carried easily. Also thet can be picked up and used easily.

ginosifu


When you assume something about a person without researching first you make an ASS out of yourself. Don't think that everyone is clueless about CMA just because a few of the folks you may know are not quite as knowledgeable as you think they should be.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

When you assume something about a person without researching first you make an ASS out of yourself. Don't think that everyone is clueless about CMA just because a few of the folks you may know are not quite as knowledgeable as you think they should be.

ginosifu

HW108.... I wouldn't order any egg drop soup from Gino at this point.....

[ginosifu]

HW108.... I wouldn't order any egg drop soup from Gino at this point.....

He should try my hot - n - sour soup. Kinda tangy with a little "Kick" to it. You can check out my soup here at 13:30-14:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HshnyrzNDig

ginosifu

[Jimbo]

All these waiter stories......f'ing amateurs. :mad:

Not saying that sarcastically either. I was a professional waiter in the past. Not a summer job for pocket change, one of the actual professionals out there.

Different attitude. A pro does not spit in your food because a pro is in control of his station. Your nobodies lacky. You are the host and the customer is the guest. When you have honored guests over to your home, not a restaurant but your actual home, you don't spit in their food when you get insulted. The reason is because you are not as insecure as some poor hack waiter.

Yeah, that happened to me once while I was at the table right next to the dude. My head snapped around so fast I almost got whiplash. Then I spoke to him in the tone of voice of a parent scolding a child and said, "I will be with you as soon as I am finished with these people over here!"

Might have gotten stiffed by the A-hole but he wasn't going to treat me well anyways. The table he interrupted though. . . $$$

Messing with a customers food is just passive aggressive BS that shows your in it for pride. A professional is doing his job for the $$$. ;)


========================
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. . .

Well, I mostly agree with a lot of your post, except for being referred to as a "lacky". What I didn't mention was there were racial undertones to his and his family's attidude. If it was a guest in my house and they acted like that, I'd kick them the hell out of my house. Still probably not an excuse, but didn't I mention I was much younger back then? I doubt that everyone is perfect at age 20. And I wasn't in it to be a career waiter.

The lesson being: Treat others with the respect you want shown to you, and you shouldn't have to worry about it.

[omarthefish]

If it was a guest in my house and they acted like that, I'd kick them the hell out of my house. . .
On at least one occasion in my career as a waiter, I actually did that. Fortunately, I was at a place where that was possible at the time. I doubled as the day manager and I remember one guy who was such a p***k that I eventually just asked him to leave. You should have seen the confusion and bewilderment as he tried to berate me while I collected his dishes and sent him on his way. :D That was a special case though...

Main point is something Hardwork actually seems to recognize. A "real" waiter sets the tone from the get-go. The entire dynamic is different.

And uh...something about knives. . .yada yada yada. .. :p

[Jimbo]

Ah, yes, knives...:)

I remember reading an article somewhere a few years back where a man who taught weapon (gun) retention to police officers emphasized using a common lockback folding knife in the ice-pick grip, in the lead hand. He de-emphasized the saber and reverse grips because he felt that, in a worst-case scenario, if the lock failed, the blade at least wouldn't close on your fingers, although your hand could still be cut. Also, he compared the lead-hand ice-pick grip to an animal's fangs or claws, always in the forward position relative to the enemy. The idea wasn't necessarily to kill with the knife, but to keep the perp off long enough for the officer to access his gun.

I don't know the pros or cons of the above method, but thought I'd mention it, anyway.

[Blacktiger]

Check out Guro Maul - he does some great stuff and gets round the globe doing loads of seminars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRBLA2H6ev4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLx0PYvvxJ0&feature=related