Building strength the TCMA way

[sanjuro_ronin]

Building strength is CRUCIAL in MA.
There is just no way around it and at every level, strength is needed.
And not just in MA, in every day life.
Not a day goes by that we don't have to lift or push or pull something.
Strength is vital and indespensible.

There is only ONE way to build strength and that is to progressive resistence.
In short, we get stronger by making our muscles stronger and they get stronger by having to do more ( exert muscular force) than they are used to.
Progressive Resistence means just that.
NO ONE disputes that.
What IS disputed at times is the means to create that resistence.

There are only TWO ways to create resistence for the muscles to get stronger and that is:
With "weight": Stone, wood, metal, body, any object that is heavy.
Without weights: this is when muscular tension is used to "activate" the strength building response and it typically and commonly called "tension" and it can be isometric ( not moving) or iso-kinetic ( moving tension).

Both ways have merits and both was have cons.

The pros of using a weight is obvious:
Resistence can be measured and different levels of intensity can be used.
Progression can be measured.
The cons are minimal:
There can be a danger to using weight that is heavier then we can handle.
The availibility of training space and equipment.

The pros of "no weights":
No need of equipment and can be done anywhere.
No danger that comes with using equipment.
The cons are numerous though:
No way to measure intensity besides 100% ( you can tell if you are exerting 50% or 80% only if you are tensing 100% or not).
No way to measure progression.
No "unbias" way to measure intensity.
Isometric tension mainly develops strength on a static pathway.
etc.

While some can state that the "bulking" up of muscles is also a "con", they tend to not realize that the EXCESSIVE bulking is based on diet and not so much the Strength building protocol one is following.
They also tend to not realize that there are strength building protocols that focus on "pure strength" only and that do not "induce" muscle growth.

The "too bulky" argument is a false one because it is based solely on the "bodybuilder" view of STrength building.
People that comment that weight training makes on "bulky and slow" seem to ignore the muscular builds of sprinters, track athletes, american football players and the vast majority of pro athletes.

In short, to build strength for ANY physical activity ( athletic or otherwise) we must do it via progressive resistence training and that training can be done wither with "weights" ( barbells, dumbells, keetlebells, stones, own bodyweight, etc) or with "muscular tension" that is done either with no movement ( isometric) or through a given range of movement ( iso-kinetic).

[sanjuro_ronin]

So how do TCMA do it?

You will find that BOTH methods are used in TCMA.
Modern equipment is not used where in the past, stone or wooden versions of "barbells, dumbells, keetlebells", were used.
Older TCMA training manuals show pictures of weight lifting as a crucial part of strength building in TCMA of all kinds.

Then we have static stance training, progressing from BW only to weight being added on, for the development of strong legs and balance.
The lifting of sand bags, stones, wooden logs, to build all around strength.

And we also have isometic exercises being done and within forms such as the "iron wire", the various "sanjian/sam chien, sarm bo gin" forms we find iso-kinetic exercises being performed.

[ginosifu]

Building strength is CRUCIAL in MA.

The "too bulky" argument is a false one because it is based solely on the "bodybuilder" view of STrength building.
People that comment that weight training makes on "bulky and slow" seem to ignore the muscular builds of sprinters, track athletes, american football players and the vast majority of pro athletes.

I agree 100%. However, my experience with peeps who lift is 75%-80% lift improperly for MA. Many lift and get bulky, especially in their arms and shoulders. In my personal experiences, bulky arms and shoulders reduce free swinging arm rotation from the shoulder joint. The CMA I learned requires arm swing techniques such cup choy or dai fan che to swivel from the shoulder and not be "muscled thru". This "muscling thru" is the wrong type of energy for this particular technique.

Strength is very important and increasing strength thru various resistance programs is great. I can't emphasize enough on proper strength training and stretching to reduce this type of attitude of I can just lift more and get stronger so I don't have to worry about technique or style.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

There is another Skywalker (*cough, *sputter, *gasp)

http://bodyweightculture.com/forum/content.php

[Frost]

If anything using modern methods of external strength training alongside traditional methods is even more important in this day and age, most old time TCMA guys came from a rural background, lifting heavy things and building strength was all part of their day to day work it is not these days, thus they had a good base of strength and endurance to work from

But as with most things its about perspective, if you have never lifted weights for strength or power you might indeed think your TCMA method is superior and better and unique, but since such people have no frame of reference to judge it other than their own bias opinion no one will take your view seriously

[Fa Xing]

I have once been of the view that any form of resistance training is not necessary when you have chi...luckily I had a friend to show me not so pleasantly that that was not true.

I have since become involved with the nerdy side of strength and conditioning alongside going to school to become a chiropractic doctor. I should be getting my CSCS next month.

Anyways, I truly think that S&C while practicing martial arts are truly necessary for proper physical and mental development. If you push yourself beyond measure in training, then if the time comes for actual combat, the martial artists response will be not as stressed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is another Skywalker (*cough, *sputter, *gasp)

http://bodyweightculture.com/forum/content.php

Using your BW is one of the progressive resistence methods with weights, the weight happens to be your body (and anything you can add to it when applicable)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree 100%. However, my experience with peeps who lift is 75%-80% lift improperly for MA. Many lift and get bulky, especially in their arms and shoulders. In my personal experiences, bulky arms and shoulders reduce free swinging arm rotation from the shoulder joint. The CMA I learned requires arm swing techniques such cup choy or dai fan che to swivel from the shoulder and not be "muscled thru". This "muscling thru" is the wrong type of energy for this particular technique.

Strength is very important and increasing strength thru various resistance programs is great. I can't emphasize enough on proper strength training and stretching to reduce this type of attitude of I can just lift more and get stronger so I don't have to worry about technique or style.

ginosifu

A very good point Gino, many people only do the "bodybuilding" type of ST because that is the only one they know.
Many people are also unaware of the crucial element of stretching the muscles AFTER ST.

[wenshu]

No way to measure intensity besides 100% ( you can tell if you are exerting 50% or 80% only if you are tensing 100% or not).
No way to measure progression.
No "unbias" way to measure intensity.
Isometric tension mainly develops strength on a static pathway.
etc.


I have to disagree with your list of cons of bodyweight conditioning. Progression is easily measured by several methods; max time for statics, # of reps for dynamic, moving the fulcrum (decreasing the leverage available to move the body through space). Same with intensity (obviously the math is going to be a little more complicated and the results will not be as seemingly precise as a PLer who warms up with 50% of his max etc but it is possible with consistent observation and logging.)

An important distinction that should be pointed out between weights vs. body weight conditioning is the activation of different kinetic chains.

Con: weight lifting is hard on the joints.

Pro: Body weight conditioning, especially some of the static holds (levers, planche, l-sit, ring elements) and dynamic elements that incorporate them (lever pull ups, planche push ups, l-sit lifts, muscle ups etc) assuming the proper progressions, condition the tendons a great deal.

[wenshu]

Addendum;

Pro for weights: fast initial progression.

Con for body weight: because of the stress on the tendons for even relatively basic elements progression is laboriously, frustratingly slow.

[wenshu]

Using your BW is one of the progressive resistence methods with weights, the weight happens to be your body (and anything you can add to it when applicable)

I see, you weren't distinguishing between body weight vs weight training.
My fault.

[Fa Xing]

Con: weight lifting is hard on the joints.

It's only hard on your joints when your body is not moving properly (ie lack of proper technique, too much isolation work, improper muscle activation, previous unknown or subacute injury).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lifting weights is less hard on the joints compared to other activities that are higher impact because, obviously, weight lifting is no-impact.
Typical MA training is harder on he joints than weight lifting and most modes of ST, the obvious exception being plyometrics.

Wenshu, the cons I listed were for ST without any weights, ie: isometric and isokinetic.
BUT you make a valid point in regards to the timing on static holds.
Not so much in regards to rep qty's in regards to Dynamic because of the very crucila issue of not being able to measure % of intensity.

Which brings me to the issue of NOT going 100% on isometrics or isokinetics.
There is no way to measure going 50 or 70 or 80% on isometrics of isokinetics, either one is tensing to the max or one isn't and in terms of strength building, not doing 100% tension in an isometric or isokintic exercises is NOT doing it to its fullest potential.

[wenshu]

I got thrown off in part by your use of isometric in reference to voluntary muscular contraction without resistance. I was thinking about isometrics against resistance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got thrown off in part by your use of isometric in reference to voluntary muscular contraction without resistance. I was thinking about isometrics against resistance.

As you know, there are 3 types of strength: Concentric, eccentric and isometric, so yeah I can see where I could have been clearer :)

[dirtyrat]

one TCMA system had us using light weights held in the hands with arms extended (either out to the sides or out in front; and even above) for a period of time while holding a horse stance as well. i suppose it's a form of shoulder isometrics. it makes you feel faster and your shoulder endurance improves so that you can throw more strikes.

[YouKnowWho]

many people only do the "bodybuilding" type of ST because that is the only one they know.

"TCMA strength training" does not equal to "modern weight lifting".

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg

There are "general" strength that can be built up by modern weight lifting. There are "special" strength than can only be built up by TCMA strength training.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8890/singleheadsweep.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

TCMA strength training does not equal to modern weight lifting.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7958/canebundle.jpg

You are thinking "sport specific" training and that's fine.
Lets go with that then:
What are you doing in that picture John?

[YouKnowWho]

What are you doing in that picture John?

Push opponent's head down and hook his leg up.

It's very difficult to find a "modern weight lifting" training that can accomplish this goal - push and pull at the same time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And how does a bundle of bamboo resolves the issue?

[Frost]

You are thinking "sport specific" training and that's fine.
Lets go with that then:
What are you doing in that picture John?

i have this strange feeling....like we have been here before......many times

[sanjuro_ronin]

i have this strange feeling....like we have been here before......many times

Not from John that I recall.
But I know where he is going with this and in some ways I agree, certain old school methods seem ideal for certain old school results.

[YouKnowWho]

And how does a bundle of bamboo resolves the issue?
The harder that you push, the harder that the cane bundle will resist. You then "borrow" the resistence and reverse your force direction. This way you can train "borrow force" when you don't have training partner.

[Frost]

Not from John that I recall.
But I know where he is going with this and in some ways I agree, certain old school methods seem ideal for certain old school results.

ive had the whole specific v general discussion with him before, for me the specific is pointless without the groundwork built by the general work.....and for me general is best build by free weights and specific by actual sports practise

[YouKnowWho]

certain old school methods seem ideal for certain old school results.

Modern still cannot replace tradition.


and specific by actual sports practise

We don't always have training partner 24/7.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The harder that you push, the harder that the cane bundle will resist. You then "borrow" the resistence and reverse your force direction. This way you can train "borrow force" when you don't have training partner.

And "Bands" can't solve that problem?

[YouKnowWho]

And "Bands" can't solve that problem?
If you are talking about rubberband, it will give you resistence when you pull, but it won't give you resistence when your push. In the modern training, you may be able to develop strong pulling or strong pushing. It doesn't mean that you can apply both at the same time.


ive had the whole specific v general discussion with him before,
When similiar subject starts, similiar posts will be included. This thread is special for "TCMA way". As a TCMA believer, it's hard not for me to take this opportunity to indicate that:

"modern is not always better than tradition".

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are talking about rubberband, it will give you resistence when you pull, but it won't give you resistence when your push.


When similiar subject starts, similiar posts will be included. This thread is special for "TCMA way". As a TCMA believer, it's hard not for me to take this opportunity to indicate that:

"modern does not always better than tradition".

Re" bands, they were an example and my point was have you tried to design a training tool with modern materials?

No, modern doesn't always = better, but lets not forget that there is nothing modern about ST, the only difference now is the materials we use and our knowledge of WHY the body works this way.

[YouKnowWho]

have you tried to design a training tool with modern materials?
I assume something like this will work too.

http://www.robbinssports.com/century-cardio-wavemaster-training-bag-punching-dummy-p-6795.html

[David Jamieson]

I use...barbells, dumbbells, kettlebells, body weight and rubberbands for resitance training.

I also use isometric and isotonic (dynamic tension) sets for some focused refined resistance.

stone locks etc are ok, but we don't have to use 300 year old designs to get the effect of 50 cent to a dollar a pound iron dumbells or x2 the cost for kettlebells.

I also use rings for set training, heavy weapons such as Kwan do with Iron pole instead of wood, heavyweight training blades on broadsword and on wu dip do.

Anyway, pretty typical resistance training for strength except for the rings, the dynamic tension sets and the heavy weapons, the rest is normal lifting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I assume something like this will work too.

http://www.robbinssports.com/century-cardio-wavemaster-training-bag-punching-dummy-p-6795.html

I like yours better :D

[bawang]

building strength the tcma way:

three eyed god lifts the mountain: squat
holding the heavens: shoulder press
thousand pound crusher: squat press
hunyuan ball: atlas ball
presenting the iron seal/diamond god uproots tree: deadlift

[Jimbo]

If anything using modern methods of external strength training alongside traditional methods is even more important in this day and age, most old time TCMA guys came from a rural background, lifting heavy things and building strength was all part of their day to day work it is not these days, thus they had a good base of strength and endurance to work from

This is an excellent point not often mentioned. My father and uncles grew up on the farm, worked a professional tuna boat, and did other labor their whole lives, and although I never saw any of them do any actual ST exercises, they remained impressively strong their entire lives, even into old age. Hard labor builds not only strength but physical/mental ruggedness as well. That's the kind of strength that old-time CMA practitioners had. In addition, many of those practitioners did system-specifec, specialized ST methods as well. People nowadays who do not come from such a background, cannot discount the importance of ST for their MA.

[bawang]

weight training is rarely known or taught because they were considered advanced excercises, which is ironic

[IronFist]

Decent thread.

I agree that strength training is often neglected in TMA.

As far as developing raw strength (the ability to lift as much weight as possible), nothing beats powerlifting style training for low, heavy reps.

As with anything it depends on your goals. There's a reason sprinters don't train by running long distances and why marathoners don't do barbell squats.

But as long as the people are doing something to get stronger, that puts them way ahead of the "traditional" TMA crew who believes such nonsense as:

- muscles make you slow
- muscles make you inflexible
- "lift with your tendons"
- you don't need muscle strength because you have qi
- you don't need to use strength; you need to use technique (sure, technique beats strength if the other guy is a noob, but if you're both equally good, then strength will often determine the winner, and I dare say there are situations where a very skilled dude who is weak may be defeated by a strong noob, eg., a 140 pound TMA black belt fighting a 250 pound weightlifting street thug)

On that last point, many skinny/weak people who have only trained with other skinny/weak people in their schools are in for a surprise the first time they fight someone who is actually big and strong. This goes triple if they've never trained against a resisting opponent (eg. in a school full of people who do tap sparring and leave their arm extended so you can do a 10 hit combo after your opponent punches).

Once we can accept the fact that we all need to do weight training, then we can argue amongst ourselves about which way is correct :)

I fully agree with John Allen (of Green Dragon Studios, who used to write for Inside Kung Fu) who said that the majority of kung fu students lack the strength required to make their techniques work.

[IronFist]

Also, weightlifting is awesome and helps prevent injury from other situations which might otherwise cause injury, such as lifting something heavy.

[Vash]

Also, weightlifting is awesome and helps prevent injury from other situations which might otherwise cause injury, such as lifting something heavy.

If you would internalize that strength, the heavy would lift you.

[IronWeasel]

I fully agree with John Allen (of Green Dragon Studios, who used to write for Inside Kung Fu) who said that the majority of kung fu students lack the strength required to make their techniques work.


You need ENOUGH muscle to make them work. But you don't have to grow to excess and follow a bodybuilder paradigm, as Sanjuro pointed out.

You still need SPEED. I put on 40 pounds since I began lifting. when it came time to break for my rank, I figured it was a sure thing.

I was so stiff, that I bounced right off the first try. I just tried to muscle my way through the blocks.

Gain some muscle...add some speed.

[IronFist]

I've never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Regarding speed, while the new muscle weighs more, it's also giving you more strength with which to move it. It's not like you just strapped on some weights while keeping your old strength levels. It's similar to doing an engine swap in a car and saying "oh, that new, bigger engine with more displacement weighs more. It's going to slow me down!" Well, now your car weighs more, but you're making a lot more horsepower, too, so the extra weight doesn't matter.

Then there's the aspect of strength/speed that is neurological in nature and has nothing to do with muscle size.

But I think it makes sense to continue training your martial skills while you are building size, otherwise it might feel different and take you a little while to get used to your new body, so to speak.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of "oh no, I'm putting on too much muscle."

[ginosifu]

I've never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of "oh no, I'm putting on too much muscle."

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:


I agree 100%. However, my experience with peeps who lift is 75%-80% lift improperly for MA. Many lift and get bulky, especially in their arms and shoulders. In my personal experiences, bulky arms and shoulders reduce free swinging arm rotation from the shoulder joint. The CMA I learned requires arm swing techniques such cup choy or dai fan che to swivel from the shoulder and not be "muscled thru". This "muscling thru" is the wrong type of energy for this particular technique.

Strength is very important and increasing strength thru various resistance programs is great. I can't emphasize enough on proper strength training and stretching to reduce this type of attitude of I can just lift more and get stronger so I don't have to worry about technique or style.

ginosifu

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu

[Kevin73]

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:



It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu

I would say that is more of a result of not stretching. All the cases I have seen in which someone was "muscle bound" was because all they did was lift hard and heavy which tears down the tissue and never had a stretching component to their lifting to lengthen the tissue back.

[Kevin73]

building strength the tcma way:

three eyed god lifts the mountain: squat
holding the heavens: shoulder press
thousand pound crusher: squat press
hunyuan ball: atlas ball
presenting the iron seal/diamond god uproots tree: deadlift

Good post, I have looked at many of the "old methods" and you are quite right, they almost all have a modern strength training lift equivolant.

Even if you go to the old Okinawan training methods that aren't used much they used items that are replicated by modern dumbbells and barbells in many cases.

As always there is nothing new under the sun...and what was old will become new again and vice versa.

[Kevin73]

I think that part of the lack of strength training in many modern "traditional arts" (even though traditionally they had them) is due to people not wanting to work hard.

It's easier to market your skills that anyone can do it and the infamous "90 lb. weakling" beating up the big strong guy with no effort than it is to say how hard you are going to have to work to get really good at it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.
Most people NEVER get proper ST advice.
Most people that start doing weights do so to get bigger and stronger, in that ordr and they tend to do "hypertrophy" ( mass) inducing programs AND eat accordingly.
They also, at times, sacrifice their MA for ST ( I know that I to have been guilty of this).
As a result, they get bigger, stronger, but slower and more "stiff".

Of course we have REAL world examples of "bulky" but still super fast ( sprinters) and super flexible ( Gymnasts and Modern MA athletes).

An ideal ST protocol for a MA NOT looking to increase mass and weight ( they go hand-in-hand) but looking to get strong is a low rep/high intensity ( heavy weights) followed by stretching after the routine ( along with consistent MA training).
In other words: a customized powerlifting routine done 2X a week and MA training the rest of the time.

We need to always remember that high weight and low reps = strength and very little mass.
Moderate weight and moderate reps = mass and some strength

High reps and low weight = muscular endurance, low strength and low mass

[wenshu]

something[/i] to get stronger, that puts them way ahead of the "traditional" TMA crew who believes such nonsense as:

- muscles make you slow
- muscles make you inflexible
- "lift with your tendons"
- you don't need muscle strength because you have qi
- you don't need to use strength; you need to use technique (sure, technique beats strength if the other guy is a noob, but if you're both equally good, then strength will often determine the winner, and I dare say there are situations where a very skilled dude who is weak may be defeated by a strong noob, eg., a 140 pound TMA black belt fighting a 250 pound weightlifting street thug)


The **** says this ****? Seriously. I've never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bull**** on to us.

[Lucas]

Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.


this has been my experience. I didn't start any weight training until I was an adult and after I had already been training kungfu for some time. I came here and got advice, and used it. I got stronger, a little bigger and I got faster. It elevated my power in every respect. I'm not a power lifter or bodybuilder, I just try to supplement my martial art.

[TenTigers]

if you lift properly, using full range of motion, you can actually increase flexibility, rather than lose it.
If you train explosive movements, you can increase speed.
When you are powerlifting, the act of getting the weight in motion from a standstill is actually an explosive movement, although to the eye it may not seem so.
Stiff, musclebound people in Martial Arts are usually the case of a non-martial artist, who trained with weights first, rather than the other way around. Once you are trained, you know how to relax.

[IronFist]

The **** says this ****? Seriously. I've never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bull**** on to us.

In the early 2000s, this training forum was super active with dozens of posts per day or more in the most active threads.

The were a lot of people who would go on and on about how weightlifting is bad for the reasons I stated.

Back in the day, nearly every TMAist I spoke with in real life was also that way. In the 90s it was worse, and in the 70s-80s it was horrible.

Now, with the proliferation of MMA, people are starting to realize that "hey, maybe weight training isn't bad" and "holy crap, if I fight a big muscular skilled guy, I'm screwed."

There are still a lot of "traditional" schools, however, that preach the weights are bad/lift with your tendons nonsense. Usually these schools don't spar or train against resisting opponents, either.

If you've never heard that, then you probably train at a pretty good school and associate with other knowledgeable martial artists.

Relax though, dude. This is a friendly forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All the fastest athletes in the world do strength training and ALL of them use weights in one way or another.
Big muscles don't equal lack of flexibility, case in point the study done that showed olympic lifters to be the most flexible of athletes in the hip and knee area ( if I recall the study correctly) and this:
http://www.nd.edu/~ndsmcgym/assets/images/stronggymnast.jpg
http://www.johncammish.co.uk/http://www.johncammish.co.uk/new/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/male-gymnast-rings.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfOgpd6mk6nEUvyl-3U1ZSjTLy3FDfNg5scosF_YBqe5zx0DNa

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mC1TEdZ4gks/SvvZ-BsSFTI/AAAAAAAAB8o/riPpb-fvJ3Q/s400/Flex+Wheeler+Splits+at+the+2000+Mr.+Olympia.JPG

http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2011/11-685-01/bodybuilder-splits.jpg

[IronFist]

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:

I've never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn't lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

The rare exceptions to this might be elite level bodybuilders when it gets to the point that the actual mass is just getting in the way, but let's not forget that almost nobody has the genetics to get there, not to mention the drug budget or knowledge.

A normal person with normal genetics is in almost no danger of losing flexibility due to muscle mass gain.

This guy certainly doesn't have flexibility issues:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ex0ojn.jpg


Nor does this guy:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2hgeete.jpg


And even if there was a loss in flexibility (there's not), but even if there was, it would be a small price to pay for the benefits that added muscle has in a fight.


If any loss of range of motion occurs, it would occur around this level:

http://i54.tinypic.com/2m9y61.jpg


The only way to get there is with:

1) the right genetics
2) the right training
3) the right diet
4) the right drugs

So that's not going to happen for most people, nor is it going to happen accidentally. It's not like you lift weights and end up bulky the next day.


If someone has a healthy amount of muscle, such as this guy, there's not going to be any loss of range of motion unless the person neglected their stretching or something while they were lifting weights:

http://i54.tinypic.com/9a690x.jpg

But most martial artists aren't even in that good of shape, so I really don't think they have anything to worry about.


It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.



I guess let's agree to disagree. Again, I've never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.

[md1]

Old school ST - Carrying 5 gal pails of mud, 1 in each hand sometimes 2 in each down a plank and then having to lift them over your head and dump them. Carrying / stacking 12” block, stacking 12” block from the ground on the scaffold 5 or 6 high.
Wheelbarrow concrete, pulling yards of concrete with a come along, finishing concrete, any chimney work. I could go on forever.
Muscles worked – chest, back, legs, stomach/core, shoulders and of course a killer grip.

Find a job as a Mason or Mason laborer, you might regret getting yelled at all day..lol but you won’t regret the fact that it puts muscles in your ****.

I don’t know… worked for my MA ST

[ginosifu]

I've never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn't lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

I guess let's agree to disagree. Again, I've never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.

IronFist:
I do not have a any degree's in Physical Education or Body Science. I can only speak from personal experience. Whether it from improper Lifting or not stretching I can not say, but in most cases the student that does some type of Arm / Shoulder / Upper Back (Shoulder) etc etc exercise, comes to practice and can no longer swivel from their shoulder joint. Instead of having a straight arm and swinging it from the shoulder (my example would a downward arcing motion some people call this cup choi), instead they bend their arms and muscle it thru.

This may be not from lifting, but the ability to relax the area? It could be from the muscle not being stretched out properly? I don't know exactly why they do it, but time and time after time peeps come into my school, start lifting and get stiff? There have been those who have come and lifted properly who look like those pics Ronin put up of the Running Athlete who is cut, but muscular. And can do demonstrate the proper execution of the arm swinging technique.


ginosifu

[MightyB]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

[YouKnowWho]

we want the gymnast's body.

My daughter has the gymnast's body. She doesn't have much muscle, but I can't do what she does.

http://natashawang.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

Yeah, cause a gymanst body isn't bulky at all:
http://images2.sina.com/english/sports/2008/0809/U100P200T1D177280F12DT20080809085615.jpg

[MightyB]

Narrator: [looking at a Calvin Klein ad on a bus] Is that what a man looks like?
Tyler Durden: [laughs] Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction...

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

[MightyB]

But most martial artists aren't even in that good of shape, so I really don't think they have anything to worry about.


Me swimming. I don't lift weights, just Judo, Mantis, Jiu Jitsu, and old school exercises.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/225546_1028973042166_1160534852_30104922_6357_n.jp g

[bawang]

Narrator: [looking at a Calvin Klein ad on a bus] Is that what a man looks like?
Tyler Durden: [laughs] Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction...

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

then real kung fu is not for you, because traditional kung fu heroes all have huge rippling muskles.

[MightyB]

then real kung fu is not for you, because traditional kung fu heroes all have huge rippling muskles.

I'm beginning to think you're mistaking your cultures. Maybe you're thinking of the Etruscan Warriors. They engaged in hom osexual relations to bond and cement their relationships with each other. That's not kung fu. :)

[IronFist]

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Who cares if someone wants to be a bodybuilder?

Regarding hot women, I would place more emphasis on what women do and respond to rather than what they say. This is totally off topic, but look at how many women say they want a "nice guy," but constantly turn down nice guys in favor of dating outlaw bikers with forearm tattoos? What are they responding to? Look at how many "nice guys" can't find dates. Yet that's what all the hot women say they want.

Ok back on topic.

Most martial artists would **** themselves if they had to fight a bodybuilder.

Who cares if someone wants to be a bodybuilder? Why does anyone care what they look like? Wanting to gain muscle is no different than fat people wanting to lose weight.


Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Depends on how you define strength. Farmers and furniture movers have great muscular endurance because of the nature of their work, but can they run a marathon? Can they deadlift 3x their bodyweight? Can they box 5 rounds without tiring? There are many definitions of "strong."


Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

lol, I love the anti-bodybuilding crew. Who cares what someone wants to do?

I love how people think big muscles are inflated and useless. I think it's carryover from old school MA nonsense, probably combined with the fact that bodybuilders, when they are beginners in MA, probably over-muscle their way through everything.

But once they learn how to do it correctly, they're much more powerful fighters than smaller guys.

There's also overcorrection from the "functional strength" crew. To bring this idea to the masses, the marketing had to be a bit anti-bodybuilder, because all the public knew about was weightlifting = bodybuilder. I remember in the early 2000s when it happened, there was so much bodybuilder hate. Even Pavel was a bit anti-bodybuilding in his books and programs. I don't think he thinks bodybuilding is stupid or useless; he was just making a point. It's dying down a bit now and things are starting to equalize again.

Also, a lot of people hate on bodybuilding because it's hard. The training is hard, eating enough is hard, etc. It's easier to be skinny and pretend like it's by choice because "bodybuilding sucks and is useless muscle." lol.

I don't want to fight a BJJ blackbelt, but if I had to, I'd rather him be 140 pounds than a 240 pound bodybuilder.

[MightyB]

Who cares if someone wants to be a bodybuilder?

Most martial artists would **** themselves if they had to fight a bodybuilder.


Me no scare -



lol, I love the anti-bodybuilding crew. Who cares what someone wants to do?

I love how people think big muscles are inflated and useless. I think it's carryover from old school MA nonsense, probably combined with the fact that bodybuilders, when they are beginners in MA, probably over-muscle their way through everything.

But once they learn how to do it correctly, they're much more powerful fighters than smaller guys.

I don't want to fight a BJJ blackbelt, but if I had to, I'd rather him be 140 pounds than a 240 pound bodybuilder.

I believe in strength training and conditioning - see my pic (that's me at 36 I've gained 10 more lbs of muscle since), but bodybuilding's g@y. ;)

[bawang]

some of the top mma fighters who are big and bulky can squat over 500 pounds. you think those huge muskles are just saggy water baloons?

[MightyB]

some of the top mma fighters who are big and bulky can squat over 500 pounds. you think those huge muskles are just saggy water baloons?

They squat 500lbs for a reason and it's not to impress the ladies, it's to enhance their performance. They strength train...

a bodybuilder does it to be g@y and look at himself in the mirror and think - oh look at my big musc cles. (rubbing testicles) Ooh I'd f*ck me, I'd f*ck me so hard.

[MightyB]

This guy certainly doesn't have flexibility issues:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ex0ojn.jpg


Nor does this guy:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2hgeete.jpg


You seriously think that's cool? :confused::eek::confused::eek:

I'd be more afraid that they would want to put a rufy in my beer.

[IronFist]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

Wow dude, really?

There are douchebags in every sport.

Sure, there are some bodybuilder dbags.

There are Crossfit dbags.

There are TMA dbags.

There are internal martial art dbags.

There are MMA dbags.

There are BJJ dbags

Granted, some of these fields may have a tendency to attract cocky individuals.


Muscle doesn't function differently. It contracts or it relaxes. "Bodybuilding muscle" adapted because of the stress imposed on it during training, so it serves a purpose with regard to a specific type of weight/rep/time under tension load expectation. It's no more or less useful than "powerlifting muscle" or a marathoner's ability to run 26 miles.

Sorry some bodybuilders were mean to you once and now you're a hater.

[IronFist]

I believe in strength training and conditioning - see my pic (that's me at 36 I've gained 10 more lbs of muscle since), but bodybuilding's g@y. ;)

lol @ saying bodybuilding is gay right after saying you gained some muscle.

Sounds like you're 10 pounds gayer than you were when that pic was taken.

[MightyB]

Wow dude, really?

Sorry some bodybuilders were mean to you once and now you're a hater.

LOL - ahh, you're jealous 'cuz I have big muskles and a six pack and I did it without bodybuilding. :D

TMA Baby - it's in the Gungs, it's all in the Gungs!!! I knowz the realz kung fu. HA!!! ;) My pics posted and it's proof of the Gungs!!!

[MightyB]

lol @ saying bodybuilding is gay right after saying you gained some muscle.

Sounds like you're 10 pounds gayer than you were when that pic was taken.

Hmmm, might be on to something - you got dinner plans? ;)

[Lucas]

dont make me throw up on you guys! :mad:

[Vash]

So, MightyB, if someone uses weight training too:

Enhance "health" (defined for the purposes of this post as the correct play between organs and organ systems)

Improve martial "performance" (defined for the purposes of this post as the technically correct use of existing attributes)

AND

Improve "appearance" (defined for the purposes of this post as the physical presentation of the body)

using methods culled from sources which include "bodybuilding" (defined for the purposes of this post as the use of resistance training to enhance the size of a muscle/group, with other attribute effects not being considered), then

someone is into the same gender?

I would posit the attitudes regarding resistance training are rooted in the same place as the attitudes regarding fans of one genre of niche fiction looking at another group:

"It's different, it sucks."

[Taixuquan99]

Worked a lot of construction over the years. Guys go into three groups:

1) Tough mf's who are useful when you need to unload a box truck full of 4x8 MDF.

2) Wussies who are probably going to damage at least twenty dollars worth of supplies.

Of the first group, lifelong construction workers, and guys who did weights to be strong.

Of the second, skinny guys WHO HADN'T DONE TEN YEARS OF CONSTRUCTION and ALL BODY SCULPTORS.

Never once saw a strong body sculptor at work. Never understood how someone with larger muscles than me could be so weak.

Also know of a former Russian olympic weights coach, strong as hell, not as big as that(has mass, but not rediculous mass), but STRONG.

Big is fine if it's also strong.

[IronWeasel]

lol @ saying bodybuilding is gay right after saying you gained some muscle.

Sounds like you're 10 pounds gayer than you were when that pic was taken.


Lol...

Now that was kinda funny!

[MightyB]

Worked a lot of construction over the years. Guys go into three groups:

1) Tough mf's who are useful when you need to unload a box truck full of 4x8 MDF.

2) Wussies who are probably going to damage at least twenty dollars worth of supplies.

Of the first group, lifelong construction workers, and guys who did weights to be strong.

Of the second, skinny guys WHO HADN'T DONE TEN YEARS OF CONSTRUCTION and ALL BODY SCULPTORS.

Never once saw a strong body sculptor at work. Never understood how someone with larger muscles than me could be so weak.

Also know of a former Russian olympic weights coach, strong as hell, not as big as that(has mass, but not rediculous mass), but STRONG.

Big is fine if it's also strong.

You get it.

BTW - I worked as a furniture mover for about 6 years for United Van Lines. We'd get those body builder pu$$ies that couldn't keep up with 60 year old men.

Uki is a brick mason... betcha he could make beyotches out of the "hardest" of body sculpting body builders.

[MightyB]

dont make me throw up on you guys! :mad:

Ahh Lucas, you know that you'd be my first choice for manly love'n. :D

[MightyB]

So, MightyB, if someone uses weight training too:

Enhance "health" (defined for the purposes of this post as the correct play between organs and organ systems)

Improve martial "performance" (defined for the purposes of this post as the technically correct use of existing attributes)

AND

Improve "appearance" (defined for the purposes of this post as the physical presentation of the body)

using methods culled from sources which include "bodybuilding" (defined for the purposes of this post as the use of resistance training to enhance the size of a muscle/group, with other attribute effects not being considered), then

someone is into the same gender?

I would posit the attitudes regarding resistance training are rooted in the same place as the attitudes regarding fans of one genre of niche fiction looking at another group:

"It's different, it sucks."

Weight training is ok if you have a rational reason and a sport specific methodology - doing curls for the mirror, well... there's a pole for you to smoke.

Speaking of poles - just take a look at a fraction of what YouKnowWho has posted... pics and videos. There's one where he's using his leg to suspend himself on a pole. I dare you to attempt it... - a body builder doesn't deserve to smoke the pole that he's using - and they think they're tough. Old Skool strength vs bodybuilding DBs.

[Lucas]

Lol I better be, I put in my dues mofo... Le douche!

[MightyB]

Lol...

Now that was kinda funny!

That wasn't "kinda" funny - it was freak'n hilarious. You have to give it to IronFist - he burnt me good. :D

[MightyB]

Lol I better be, I put in my dues mofo... Le douche!

You said the secret word!

Ahhhhhhhhh!

---

Anybody else get where I'm coming from though seriously? This thread is supposed to be about TCMA weight training techniques. Well - YouKnowWho has a ton of them. They work. They'll sculpt your body... and they give you functional strength. Now we have modern sport science... and there's plenty of good material that we can use to enhance our martial abilities. BUT - none of that is bodybuilding. People post pics of bodybuilders in their man thongs doing the splits and be little true TCMAists (before I started posting) for pointing out that bodybuilding is relatively useless for our sport. WTF! You guys suck. Bodybuilding is masturbation for the g@ys. I'd be scared to do BJJ with a bodybuilder for fear of them getting an erection! MMA uses old school strength and strongman techniques. Those work. Those are for functional strength. Doing every version of bench press angle possible in a periodization schedule (which has proven to be a waste of time) is stupid and only for self gratification.

[bawang]

sounds like you have issues with big bad bullies from your past

[Vash]

Weight training is ok if you have a rational reason and a sport specific methodology - doing curls for the mirror, well... there's a pole for you to smoke.

How does one define the physical preparation specificity of what is intended to be "general physical preparation?"

Also, positively improving the appearance is "pole-smoking" worthy? Does this extend to ab work, pushups, pullups, deadlifts, etc? What about to less training-related things, such as wearing cologne, clean clothes, coming the hair?


Speaking of poles - just take a look at a fraction of what YouKnowWho has posted... pics and videos. There's one where he's using his leg to suspend himself on a pole.

I have - both interesting and very useful.


I dare you to attempt it...

I know, "pics or it didn't happen," but I have used non-weight-set tools, such as the shorter balance stands, makiwara, bean-bag for finger strikes, strapped flexible cords (of wood) for specific throwing and lifting movements, as well as several well-crafted Okinawa-origin hojo undo tools. All were challenging, many are in my current training regimen in some form.


- a body builder doesn't deserve to smoke the pole that he's using - and they think they're tough. Old Skool strength vs bodybuilding DBs.

I feel strange being a "body-building backer," as focus primarily on my health (specifically back health from three breaks and dislocated tailbone) and performance (using the definitions from my previous post), but I think attention should be given to the bolded portion of your quote.

Is it the weight training techniques of bodybuilding to which you object, or the attitudes of people engaged in that activity, with which you've had negative interaction?

I am going to categorically state that body-building training, specifically the hypertrophy of muscle as the primary training goal (accompanied by the increased caloric intake noted by Sanjuro_Ronin as unnecessary for MA training goals) is not the best way for a martial artist to train.

I would suggest, though, that training with some of the same techniques as hypertrophy or general physique-minded people, would positively impact the development of trainees.

[MightyB]

sounds like you have issues with big bad bullies from your past

Did you not see my pic? I am a big bad bully :D

Sorry Bawang - I know you're interested in weight lifting. It's good - just don't fall into the trap of muscles for muscles sake. There's a method behind the madness of my posts. Using Pereto Principle, modern sports training and traditional training methods, you can come up with a good routine for developing functional strength... It DOES include weight training - but there's a difference between that and body building.

[MightyB]

How does one define the physical preparation specificity of what is intended to be "general physical preparation?"

Also, positively improving the appearance is "pole-smoking" worthy? Does this extend to ab work, pushups, pullups, deadlifts, etc? What about to less training-related things, such as wearing cologne, clean clothes, coming the hair?



I have - both interesting and very useful.



I know, "pics or it didn't happen," but I have used non-weight-set tools, such as the shorter balance stands, makiwara, bean-bag for finger strikes, strapped flexible cords (of wood) for specific throwing and lifting movements, as well as several well-crafted Okinawa-origin hojo undo tools. All were challenging, many are in my current training regimen in some form.



I feel strange being a "body-building backer," as focus primarily on my health (specifically back health from three breaks and dislocated tailbone) and performance (using the definitions from my previous post), but I think attention should be given to the bolded portion of your quote.

Is it the weight training techniques of bodybuilding to which you object, or the attitudes of people engaged in that activity, with which you've had negative interaction?

I am going to categorically state that body-building training, specifically the hypertrophy of muscle as the primary training goal (accompanied by the increased caloric intake noted by Sanjuro_Ronin as unnecessary for MA training goals) is not the best way for a martial artist to train.

I would suggest, though, that training with some of the same techniques as hypertrophy or general physique-minded people, would positively impact the development of trainees.

We're almost on the same page... I'll put it in terms that my old track coach used when he lead us to our first regional victory on our mile relay team - he said... "Use curls to get the girls, but squats will win the race." We then went into then advanced conditioning and plyometric technical training. You see, what he was getting at is the mindset. Why are you in the weight room? Is it to be a better athlete? Then there's a specific way that you'll train. If it's to make big arms so you have big arms - well that's a different training all together.

[MightyB]

Old school ST - Carrying 5 gal pails of mud, 1 in each hand sometimes 2 in each down a plank and then having to lift them over your head and dump them. Carrying / stacking 12” block, stacking 12” block from the ground on the scaffold 5 or 6 high.
Wheelbarrow concrete, pulling yards of concrete with a come along, finishing concrete, any chimney work. I could go on forever.
Muscles worked – chest, back, legs, stomach/core, shoulders and of course a killer grip.

Find a job as a Mason or Mason laborer, you might regret getting yelled at all day..lol but you won’t regret the fact that it puts muscles in your ****.

I don’t know… worked for my MA ST

RESPECT
In MMA, we beware of guys like you - we call it that "crazy old man strength". We always are more wary of the construction or iron workers cuz they'll get you with that "crazy old man strength". The preppy body builders... meh- Even our smallest guy will have them tapping in the first round.

[MightyB]

this has been my experience. I didn't start any weight training until I was an adult and after I had already been training kungfu for some time. I came here and got advice, and used it. I got stronger, a little bigger and I got faster. It elevated my power in every respect. I'm not a power lifter or bodybuilder, I just try to supplement my martial art.

I can respect this.

[MightyB]

if you lift properly, using full range of motion, you can actually increase flexibility, rather than lose it.
If you train explosive movements, you can increase speed.
When you are powerlifting, the act of getting the weight in motion from a standstill is actually an explosive movement, although to the eye it may not seem so.
Stiff, musclebound people in Martial Arts are usually the case of a non-martial artist, who trained with weights first, rather than the other way around. Once you are trained, you know how to relax.

Dat be true too.

Pay attention to what I bolded.

[bawang]

its one thing to be small but strong, but you look like an anorexic woman

i mean, if you are afraid to look big, just dont train the biceps.

[Frost]

Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it's awkward. There's a difference between a gymnast's body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast's body.

Lol I tell you what go compete in a non weight class MMA event, or sanda against the bulky big guys and see how you do :o)

These comments are usually made by guys weight about 140 pounds, the first time an 85kg bodybuilder simply curled his way out of my 93kg arm bar I gained a new respect for bodybuilder, PS this guy put the same dedication and attention to detail in his grappling as he did his bodybuilding and thus cleaned up in every comp he entered

[Frost]

Narrator: [looking at a Calvin Klein ad on a bus] Is that what a man looks like?
Tyler Durden: [laughs] Self-improvement is masturbation. Now self-destruction...

Body building is a form of masturbation - maybe it's fun, but there's no point. Ooh I lift to get big <cough *g@y cough> Who you trying to impress, other lifters - cuz that's well - you know what that is. Besides - the hot women I know like fit men, they're grossed out by the lifters.

Anyway - the strongest people I know are farmers and furniture movers - they don't look like body builders.

Now if you're doing curls to get better at defending a kimura - or you doing explosive bench to build fast twitch so you can master a transition - there's something to gain by doing so. Bulking and bodybuilding - bah, it's well, you know what it is.

Ronny coleman deadlifts in the 700-800 pound range before bodybuilding comps, franco Colombo as well as being a champion bodybuilder was also a world class powerlifter andd boxer, (you practise dancing around like a mantis bug and you call these guys public m8asterbators :o) )

The strongest guys I know are powerlifters, some of them have also done bodybuilding go figure

[Frost]

You said the secret word!

Ahhhhhhhhh!

---

Anybody else get where I'm coming from though seriously? This thread is supposed to be about TCMA weight training techniques. Well - YouKnowWho has a ton of them. They work. They'll sculpt your body... and they give you functional strength. Now we have modern sport science... and there's plenty of good material that we can use to enhance our martial abilities. BUT - none of that is bodybuilding. People post pics of bodybuilders in their man thongs doing the splits and be little true TCMAists (before I started posting) for pointing out that bodybuilding is relatively useless for our sport. WTF! You guys suck. Bodybuilding is masturbation for the g@ys. I'd be scared to do BJJ with a bodybuilder for fear of them getting an erection! MMA uses old school strength and strongman techniques. Those work. Those are for functional strength. Doing every version of bench press angle possible in a periodization schedule (which has proven to be a waste of time) is stupid and only for self gratification.

Bull go look up joe defranco, he trains pro athletes in all sports including MMA and college wrestling and guess what, 80% of his programme is body building reps and sets, he does a max effort lift, then high rep stuff just like the old school body builders did, you sound like an ****phobic idiot who should really be banned and who doesn’t have a clue about anything to do with training

[md1]

Worked a lot of construction over the years. Guys go into three groups:

1) Tough mf's who are useful when you need to unload a box truck full of 4x8 MDF.

2) Wussies who are probably going to damage at least twenty dollars worth of supplies.

Of the first group, lifelong construction workers, and guys who did weights to be strong.

Of the second, skinny guys WHO HADN'T DONE TEN YEARS OF CONSTRUCTION and ALL BODY SCULPTORS.

Never once saw a strong body sculptor at work. Never understood how someone with larger muscles than me could be so weak.

Also know of a former Russian olympic weights coach, strong as hell, not as big as that(has mass, but not rediculous mass), but STRONG.

Big is fine if it's also strong.

Now that is RIGHT on the money. We get at least one or 2 of those guys every summer wanting to labor for us.... We would kill them by coffee at 10:00 and most of them wouldn't come back after lunch... hahahahaha

Big muscles are cool i guess but if you can't do crap with them what's the point.

[md1]

lol @ saying bodybuilding is gay right after saying you gained some muscle.

Sounds like you're 10 pounds gayer than you were when that pic was taken.

now that's some funny ****!! hahahahha

[Iron_Eagle_76]

For those of you saying doing bicep curls are useless, strong biceps help very much for pummeling as well as developing good under/over hooks in the clinch. Anything that builds functional strength is going to help you, and most weight lifting and body building does.;)

[Vash]

For those of you saying doing bicep curls are useless, strong biceps help very much for pummeling as well as developing good under/over hooks in the clinch. Anything that builds functional strength is going to help you, and most weight lifting and body building does.;)

Your correct is both strong, and applied with proper internal/external integration.

[MightyB]

Bull go look up joe defranco, he trains pro athletes in all sports including MMA and college wrestling and guess what, 80% of his programme is reps and sets, he does a max effort lift, then high rep stuff just like the old school body builders did

Fixed it for you. Walk into your local iron works gym. Watch what happens. Body builders do every version of bench possible - incline, decline, standard, inside grip, outside grip, flies - maybe they max weight - but no max rep, no 100% muscle fatigue... half their lifts are wrong - they don't go full range - and usually their spotter does most of the work. They are lifting for the mirror and are trying to impress the other gym muscles. Preacher curls - usually too much weight, too little range... goes on and on. Why? Because they have no reason to be there. No goal.

Weight training - you have a goal. Maybe you go to a smith machine, put 120 or 130 pounds on it, put up the rubber stoppers to keep from killing yourself, lower the weight slowly - literally throw it on the press so that it leaves your hands, catch and slowly lower. Body builders are like "WTF is that?". Sport specific athletes know you're working fast twitch.

[Frost]

Fixed it for you. Walk into your local iron works gym. Watch what happens. Body builders do every version of bench possible - incline, decline, standard, inside grip, outside grip, flies - maybe they max weight - but no max rep, no 100% muscle fatigue... half their lifts are wrong - they don't go full range - and usually their spotter does most of the work. They are lifting for the mirror and are trying to impress the other gym muscles. Preacher curls - usually too much weight, too little range... goes on and on. Why? Because they have no reason to be there. No goal.

Weight training - you have a goal. Maybe you go to a smith machine, put 120 or 130 pounds on it, put up the rubber stoppers to keep from killing yourself, lower the weight slowly - literally throw it on the press so that it leaves your hands, catch and slowly lower. Body builders are like "WTF is that?". Sport specific athletes know you're working fast twitch.

Doesn’t need fixing and you really should visit a proper gym sometimes and stoop making yourself look such an idiot :
he does incline, flat bench and dumbbell pressing with palms in and palms out and decline presses, as well as dips, all standard body building stuff

Body builders do max lifts, they go to full exhaustion, they also do max reps as well, they do whatever it takes to build and shock the muscles

You really should stop talking out of your back side about something you don’t know anything about

Sports guys know the smith machine is useless for anything other than being a coat rack…again please stop looking so silly

[Scott R. Brown]

Ronny coleman deadlifts in the 700-800 pound range before bodybuilding comps, franco Colombo as well as being a champion bodybuilder was also a world class powerlifter andd boxer, (you practise dancing around like a mantis bug and you call these guys public m8asterbators :o) )

The strongest guys I know are powerlifters, some of them have also done bodybuilding go figure

Franco also took a little martial arts. One time when asked about his bodybuilder physique and how it affected his martial arts he said, "If you hit me, I'll still be standing. If I hit you, you will fall down."

[MightyB]

Smith Machine Throws (http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol2/iss3/47/)

Performance Training (http://ops.orthopaedicrehab.com/performance_training_information)

Bodybuilding vs Functional Strength (http://download.gregorytoomey.com/Exercise%20-%20Miscellaneous%20routines%20and%20diet/Tom%20Venuto%20-%20Bodybuilding%20vs%20Strength%20Training.pdf) - A body builder's perspective.



DOES BODYBUILDING TRAINING HELP ATHLETES BECOME BETTER
ATHLETES?

Functional training can definitely help the bodybuilder become a better bodybuilder,
but is the reverse also true? In some instances yes, bodybuilding training can help
the athlete. For example, when an athlete needs to add 15-20 pounds of muscle, a
bodybuilding style program could be incorporated into a carefully periodized schedule
in order to achieve the hypertrophy desired.

However, functional training has more application to bodybuilders than bodybuilding
training has to athletes. For example, most bodybuilders train with a controlled
tempo and more time under tension. Bodybuilders generally perform little or no
explosive exercise, usually opting instead for slow reps such as a 2-3 second
concentric and a 3-4 second eccentric. Time under tension is an important
consideration for the bodybuilders.

If an athlete requiring explosiveness and strength used a traditional bodybuilding
protocol of 6-8 reps on a slow tempo such as 4031 or 9-12 reps on a 3020 tempo,
they would not be training the qualities they wanted to improve. As many strength
coaches are fond of saying, “train slow, get slow.”


Athletes are not primarily interested in cosmetic improvements or pure muscle
mass– they want functionality! They want strength, power, flexibility, coordination,
agility, balance and endurance. They want to run faster, jump higher and hit harder.

Athletes need very high levels of neuromuscular integration and recruitment of fast
twitch muscle fiber. They require activation of postural and stabilizing muscles. If
the athlete focused on muscular isolation and machine work as many of the
bodybuilders do, once again, they would not be training with the proper specificity.

The best thing an athlete can do to improve their sports performance is to use free
weights, explosive movements and functional training modalities that are as specific
to the requirements of their events as possible. Therefore, it’s only logical to
conclude that athletes should NOT train like bodybuilders.

[MightyB]

You should really read the article. (http://download.gregorytoomey.com/Exercise%20-%20Miscellaneous%20routines%20and%20diet/Tom%20Venuto%20-%20Bodybuilding%20vs%20Strength%20Training.pdf)

So much good info like:


CLARITY OF PURPOSE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL YOUR TRAINING QUESTIONS

Here is the ultimate solution to all the questions and issues that have been brought
up in this article: GET CLARITY OF PURPOSE! Any confusion you have about the
multitude of training methods being promoted today will evaporate when you get
clear about what you want. Why are you in the gym? What, specifically are your
goals? Only after you have 100% clarity can you intelligently select the exercise
modalities that will accomplish your objective with maximum efficiency.


The really smart bodybuilder understands how his or her training should differ from
sports training and the smart athlete know the difference between strength training
and cosmetic bodybuilding. It really boils down to knowing what you want (clarity),
then choosing the appropriate tools to help you get there the fastest.


and...



CONCLUSION

Many bodybuilders have become closed minded to trying new things such as
functional exercise or working on a ball. As a result, they are finding themselves
developing imbalances, getting injuries and falling far short of their potential for
muscle mass. On the other hand, many strength coaches and athletes wrongly
accuse bodybuilders of faulty training, when the bodybuilders are in fact, doing
exactly what they are supposed to be doing: Training to look good. Bodybuilding is
NOT the worst thing that ever happened to strength training. Strength athletes, for
the most part, should simply train like athletes and bodybuilders should train like
bodybuilders. However, as this “old school” bodybuilder discovered, functional
training DOES have a place in the bodybuilder’s routine and the bodybuilders could
certainly stand to learn a thing or two from the athletic community.

[Vash]

My favorite phrase from the article is: "close minded."

From the MA perspective, strength training Should fulfill two purposes, only one of which has been addressed in-depth; that being skill-specific ability.

Non technique training should also help prevent over use injuries, address muscular imbalances which can result from pure technical or "enhanced technical" training, as well as improving the overall functioning of the body, at play and at rest.

It seems prudent to me to do whichever training from whichever source that's going to keep me effective today and 50 years down the road.

Traditional training can assist in this. So can elastic band movements, foam rolling muscles, jow application, single-muscle strength and (in some cases) hypertrophic training, uneven-fill sandbag throws, and reverse grip dumbbell press.

Why limit what options you have to enhance your Kung Fu?

[MightyB]

Sports guys know the smith machine is useless for anything other than being a coat rack…again please stop looking so silly

Ideally yes, you want to use all free weights that offer the greatest range of motion when you're a performance athlete... but I wouldn't do throws "naked". It's much safer on a Smith.

Anyway - Now you maybe can understand why a performance strength athlete like myself would A) have respect for old school dynamic training methods like YouKnowWho posts, and B) have a disdain for cosmetic body building and see it as a waste of time.

I'll agree I'm close-minded, but no more so than any of you, but I have very legitimate reasons because I'm a martial artist. Every trip to the gym, every work out has to have a purpose other than cosmetic.

[ginosifu]

Most martial artists would **** themselves if they had to fight a bodybuilder.

Where do you get this crap from? You are assuming that everyone in afraid of big muscular athletes? How do you know this? Where are you getting your information from?

I am 5' 3" / 155lbs and I have never been afraid of anyone re-guardless of there skill, size, etc. I once fought a guy 6' / 230lbs, I was able to control him and eventually made him tap with a Phoenix Eye (not a strike though) pressure point to the corated artery. Behind the artery itself is a bundle of nerves and the loss of blood to the head combined with the pain caused him to tap relatively quickly. I credit it to having a grip of steel and being able to control him while we were grappling. Tremendous grip strength is what is called "Specific Strength" training.


Lol I tell you what go compete in a non weight class MMA event, or sanda against the bulky big guys and see how you do :o)

These comments are usually made by guys weight about 140 pounds, the first time an 85kg bodybuilder simply curled his way out of my 93kg arm bar I gained a new respect for bodybuilder, PS this guy put the same dedication and attention to detail in his grappling as he did his bodybuilding and thus cleaned up in every comp he entered

I dis agree with the generalized view point that getting bigger / stronger is the best way. Bodybuilders, powerlifters and peeps who just lift only to get massive bulk and strength may have the ability to crush a guy with one blow from their big meat hooks.

However, if they can not do the techniques the way I ask them to do, the way I want them to do it, then they are not able to learn my style. Just because you can pound a guy in the octagon does not necessarily mean that are able to utilize the techniques of your given style. Saying that... does mean that the modern day fighters do have any skill, which there are some that do have good fighting skills. I just think that many rely on strength and brutality over skill.

I get the point of getting stronger, but taking time out of skill practice, fighting class, sparring sessions cuz you want to lift that day is unacceptable. Strength specific techniques are usually built into kung fu training.

Bamboo Twisting - for grip strength

Belt Cracking - for grip strength

Jar Catching - learning to capture a limb

These are just a couple off the top of my head. There are many Weighting exercises geared for explosive attacks and other MA related areas. I think for myself and students, the main goal of strength training is more specific techniques which give them more time to do other stuff (Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou etc).

ginosifu

ps: I do not give a Fook Fu about how many great fighters were big and muscular and taught football teams strength management. I fought guys bigger than myself and they were gigantic ox's with big meat hooks... that does mean they could fight well. That also dose not mean they put their strength where it needed to be.

[YouKnowWho]

Some TCMA strength training is not trying to develop "big muscle" but to develop certain part of body function that we just can't develop through any other exercise.

When you push your opponent's shoulder and "scoop" his foot into your hand, you can obtain your opponent's "single leg" without shooting at his leg. In order to develop such ability, you can

- dig a hole,
- put a Bowling ball (steel ball in ancient time) in that hole, and
- use your inner heel to scoop it out of that hole daily.

I go to gym all the time. I still cannot find any modern gym training equipment that can help me to develop that "particular" skill yet.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3005/changlegseize.jpg

[Taixuquan99]

You get it.

BTW - I worked as a furniture mover for about 6 years for United Van Lines. We'd get those body builder pu$$ies that couldn't keep up with 60 year old men.

Uki is a brick mason... betcha he could make beyotches out of the "hardest" of body sculpting body builders.

Exactly. Size somehow doesn't turn into functional strength for some regimens, it seems like.

[Frost]

You should really read the article. (http://download.gregorytoomey.com/Exercise%20-%20Miscellaneous%20routines%20and%20diet/Tom%20Venuto%20-%20Bodybuilding%20vs%20Strength%20Training.pdf)

So much good info like:


and...

lol if this is where you are getting your education then....good luck

[Frost]

Ideally yes, you want to use all free weights that offer the greatest range of motion when you're a performance athlete... but I wouldn't do throws "naked". It's much safer on a Smith.

Anyway - Now you maybe can understand why a performance strength athlete like myself would A) have respect for old school dynamic training methods like YouKnowWho posts, and B) have a disdain for cosmetic body building and see it as a waste of time.

I'll agree I'm close-minded, but no more so than any of you, but I have very legitimate reasons because I'm a martial artist. Every trip to the gym, every work out has to have a purpose other than cosmetic.

a sports specific strength athlete would not touch the smith machine, they would use medicine balls, kettlebells, shot puts etc, and there are good reasons for this that anyone with any knowledge would know :rolleyes:

lol get of your high horse, you have no idea why good strength coaches put in body building exercises (and even actual body building weeks in their training cycles,) coachs like defranco, Joe Kenn et al all see its value for both recovery from a hard season and also for injury provention, of course they are wrong and you are right i mean so what if they actually train athletes who are paid for their performance, , your not a performance strnegth athlete your a hobby martial arts guy get over yourself

[Frost]

Some TCMA strength training is not trying to develop "big muscle" but to develop certain part of body function that we just can't develop through any other exercise.

When you push your opponent's shoulder and "scoop" his foot into your hand, you can obtain your opponent's "single leg" without shooting at his leg. In order to develop such ability, you can

- dig a hole,
- put a Bowling ball (steel ball in ancient time) in that hole, and
- use your inner heel to scoop it out of that hole daily.

I go to gym all the time. I still cannot find any modern gym training equipment that can help me to develop that "particular" skill yet.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3005/changlegseize.jpg

or you could just get strong and then do your sport, you know go from general to specific strength

[Frost]

Franco also took a little martial arts. One time when asked about his bodybuilder physique and how it affected his martial arts he said, "If you hit me, I'll still be standing. If I hit you, you will fall down."

my favourite quote of his was when hes drunk he would walk down a street and lift and move the cars until they make a nice v shape all down the street, he was one strong smart guy

[MightyB]

a sports specific strength athlete would not touch the smith machine, they would use medicine balls, kettlebells, shot puts etc, and there are good reasons for this that anyone with any knowledge would know :rolleyes:

lol get of your high horse, you have no idea why good strength coaches put in body building exercises (and even actual body building weeks in their training cycles,) coachs like defranco, Joe Kenn et al all see its value for both recovery from a hard season and also for injury provention, of course they are wrong and you are right i mean so what if they actually train athletes who are paid for their performance, , your not a performance strnegth athlete your a hobby martial arts guy get over yourself

I'm not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn't for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that's that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you'd use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you're fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc... I'll stick with my guys (http://ops.orthopaedicrehab.com/staff). They know their $hit.

[Frost]

I'm not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn't for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that's that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you'd use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you're fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc... I'll stick with my guys (http://ops.orthopaedicrehab.com/staff). They know their $hit.

nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo

[MightyB]

nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo

It is g@y.

---

[MightyB]

It is g@y.

---

or I could stay with "a waste of time for a martial artist"
or I could say "like masturbation, feels good but what's the point?"

Heck - I'm full of 'em.

I like Gino Sifu's


I get the point of getting stronger, but taking time out of skill practice, fighting class, sparring sessions cuz you want to lift that day is unacceptable. Strength specific techniques are usually built into kung fu training.

Bamboo Twisting - for grip strength

Belt Cracking - for grip strength

Jar Catching - learning to capture a limb

These are just a couple off the top of my head. There are many Weighting exercises geared for explosive attacks and other MA related areas. I think for myself and students, the main goal of strength training is more specific techniques which give them more time to do other stuff (Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou etc).

[IronFist]

RESPECT
In MMA, we beware of guys like you - we call it that "crazy old man strength". We always are more wary of the construction or iron workers cuz they'll get you with that "crazy old man strength". The preppy body builders... meh- Even our smallest guy will have them tapping in the first round.

Someone who trains BJJ can tap out a bodybuilder who doesn't train BJJ?

Stop the press.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"crazy old man strength" ??
Compared to what? guys that don't do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn't take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn't understand why.
I didn't understand how he DIDN'T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.

[Taixuquan99]

Lifters and martial artists who frequent forums and read about the material they are working with every day and stay on the cutting edge are not the lifters one most likely runs into.

I'm sorry, but the reality on the ground is that most guys doing weight lifting are not doing heavy research. I worked for twenty years in a field rife with guys who lifted weights, and the quality level, endurance level, and strength level of all but a few of them was not as impressive as their size.

The ones with great strength, yeah, probably better informed. But the fact is, those guys are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.

[IronFist]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I've seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there's an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

[Taixuquan99]

"crazy old man strength" ??
Compared to what? guys that don't do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn't take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn't understand why.
I didn't understand how he DIDN'T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.

Yes, because strong man gyms are the typical, stark majority of weight lifters.:p:D

[Taixuquan99]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I see 150 pound dues doing them.


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we'll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn't want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn't, just like fat, etc.

The world isn't some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who've worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that's a nice bonus, but they won't likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn't already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.

[MightyB]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I've seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there's an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

Darn you and your Logic!!! Who invited you to this rant?!?!?

[MightyB]

Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we'll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn't want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn't, just like fat, etc.

The world isn't some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who've worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that's a nice bonus, but they won't likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn't already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.

We must've worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.

[Taixuquan99]

We must've worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.

I just always think it's funny when someone comes along saying how a weight lifter would do this and that, fear them. I've got friends who lift, I got friends who I'd want with me in a bad situation, the overlap is not that far off from other groups.

I've seen big strapping guys leave work crying because they weren't used to the way a lot of people in shops and work crews kid anyone for anything, because they had a hard time doing things before they had experience. Afraid of that? I think not.

People are people. Weight lifters aren't any more a concern than most anyone else.

[Frost]

or I could stay with "a waste of time for a martial artist"
or I could say "like masturbation, feels good but what's the point?"

Heck - I'm full of 'em.

I like Gino Sifu's

yep you are certainly full of something

[MightyB]

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has "inflated bodybuilder muscles". That's why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn't training for powerlifting.


Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock "sports cars." This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the "big guys."

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we're not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don't gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don't see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I've seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).


A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there's an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

"we tap out bodybuilders"

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

As far as size goes is that it's possible to maintain an edge even if the other guy is bigger through superior training, technique, proportional strength advantages, and exploiting your opponent's weakness. Do you have to be overall stronger than the other guy? - not really, you just have to be stronger in the things that you do very well. Be stronger than his defensive potential say for an omaplata, or ankle lock, or bicep crush or whatever it is that you do very well. That's where sports specific weight training comes into play.

[Taixuquan99]

or you could just get strong and then do your sport, you know go from general to specific strength

What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.

[MightyB]

yep you are certainly full of something

Machismo!!!

[MightyB]

What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.

To simulate using your instep to set up an ankle pick? I think the bowling ball in the hole is pretty much spot on, but seems like cables could do it. Only thing is that the cables bypass the need for concentrating on stabilizing the ball to pull it out of the hole... you know, since they are attached to you and all and the ball isn't.

[Taixuquan99]

To simulate using your instep to set up an ankle pick? I think the bowling ball in the hole is pretty much spot on, but seems like cables could do it. Only thing is that the cables bypass the need for concentrating on stabilizing the ball to pull it out of the hole... you know, since they are attached to you and all and the ball isn't.

Makes sense.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is another TCMA training that can help to develop the "leg twist". This one is also very difficult to find a modern method to replace it. The reason is simple, there is no modern equipmant that can help us to "twist" our leg.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

The leg twisting (Kawazu gake) is used in 0.58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2neoxbPJr0

[goju]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/whats-going-on-in-this-thread.jpg

As far as actual body building goes i think the best thing to carry over from that into MA is the V taper shape one can maintain as they get bigger.Especially for me given i have a TKD backround i found putting on mass but keeping the waist small was crucial for the speed and flexibility need for the art .I've gone from 170 to 240 and i feel no loss in speed or flexibility at all.If anything I've GAINED more.

[Taixuquan99]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/whats-going-on-in-this-thread.jpg

As far as actual body building goes i think the best thing to carry over from that into MA is the V taper shape one can maintain as they get bigger.Especially for me given i have a TKD backround i found putting on mass but keeping the waist small was crucial for the speed and flexibility need for the art .I've gone from 170 to 240 and i feel no loss in speed or flexibility at all.If anything I've GAINED more.

Clearly you are slower and have less chi.

[bawang]

frost is right. you have serious issues with big strong bully types, i can understand that, but you are letting your personal demons taint your kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

I've gone from 170 to 240 ...

When you get older, you will spend a lot of money trying to lose your weight. Hope you will be able to reduce your body weight as easy as you did when you put it on. :D

[bawang]

The reason is simple, there is no modern equipmant that can help us to "twist" our leg.


what are you talking about man, thats just a one sided barbell.\


do you really think with a 60 pound stone lock, you throw it in the air and twirl it and spin it? for "special strength"? are you getting senile?


you guys do know in traditional kung fu you do bicep curls and shoulder press with the stone locks, just like modern gyms, right?

[goju]

When you get older, you will spend a lot of money trying to lose your weight. Hope you will be able to reduce your body weight as easy as you did when you put it on. :D

Lou ferrignos stood huge and hes over the hill.If he can do it so can i :D

[YouKnowWho]

you guys do know in traditional kung fu you do bicep curls and shoulder press with the stone locks, just like modern gyms, right?

The main training for stone lock is not to "press" or to "lift" but to "swing". When you "swing' your stone lock, your body is functioned as one unit. This is the main difference between "muscle group isolation" and "body unification".

http://www.ask.com/videos/watch-video/equipment-work-shuai-jiao-stone-lock-3/jvztf7QDw6AE0wdn5WW-LQ?o=100000031&l=dis&ver=11&domain=ask.com

[bawang]

The main training for stone lock is not to "press" or to "lift"

you do know what is "hua suo" flower locks? twirling is for performance.

forget those silly shuai jiao youtube videos twirling those 10 pound baby locks. traditionally you do lift.

there are even old stone lock manuals with pictures showing bicep curls.

[IronFist]

I've seen big strapping guys leave work crying because they weren't used to the way a lot of people in shops and work crews kid anyone for anything, because they had a hard time doing things before they had experience. Afraid of that? I think not.

People are people. Weight lifters aren't any more a concern than most anyone else.

Again, untrained bodybuilders don't prove or disprove anything.

Noob bodybuilders showing up at a construction site where people who are conditioned and have been doing the work for years are performing better than them doesn't prove anything.

Who makes fun of noobs because they suck at things? http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Guess what? Skinny people get tapped out on their first day of class, too!

So do functional strength kettlebell dudes and Crossfitters.

So do marathoners.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, actually.

People suck at things they are new at.

But if there are two fighters of equal skill, my money is on the bigger and stronger one every time.

Sometimes the bigger one isn't stronger, although the bigger one probably has better muscular endurance. A 150 pound powerlifter who can bench 350 and a 200 pound bodybuilder who can bench 315, if it was a contest to see who can rep 225 the most, I think the 200 pound guy would win.

I just arbitrarily picked those numbers.

But geez, some of you guys are making it sound like bodybuilders are weaker than the general population. And slower and inflexible. lol.

Bodybuilders are worse at stuff they haven't specifically trained for than people who have specifically trained for it. That's no surprise. That's why you guys tap them out when they are noobs and you have been training for years.

I bet bodybuilders are worse at guitar on their first day of lessons than someone who has been plying for 5 years.

I also bet bodybuilders are worse at fixing cars on their first day than people who have been mechanics for 15 years.

Wow, from this we can deduce that bodybuilding makes you bad at playing guitar and fixing cars!

Come on.

[YouKnowWho]

you do know what is "hua suo" flower locks? twirling is for performance.

forget those silly shuai jiao youtube videos twirling those 10 pound baby locks. traditionally you do lift.

there are even old stone lock manuals with pictures showing bicep curls.
You are right that the "heavy' stone lock is used for "lifting". The "light" weight stone lock is used for swinging. The swinging is not for performance. It's used to train the "pulling" type of throws.

[IronFist]

As far as size goes is that it's possible to maintain an edge even if the other guy is bigger through superior training, technique, proportional strength advantages, and exploiting your opponent's weakness. Do you have to be overall stronger than the other guy? - not really, you just have to be stronger in the things that you do very well. Be stronger than his defensive potential say for an omaplata, or ankle lock, or bicep crush or whatever it is that you do very well. That's where sports specific weight training comes into play.

No one is disagreeing with this.

We're saying all else being equal, bigger and stronger will usually win.

There was a skinny dude in my MMA school. He was like 5'8" and 140 pounds. I was significantly stronger than him and 20 pounds heavier than him. I'm skinny, too, but I mostly do powerlifting type training so I'm stronger than an untrained person of my size.

Anyway, I could hold this dude down so he couldn't move. I could muscle my way out of his submissions. But eventually he would win because he had been training for 2 years and I had been there for 2 weeks.

The disparity between his technique and my strength was enough that he would always win.

When I would grapple with other noobs who were smaller or weaker, I would almost always win. I didn't even need technique, I would just brute force my way into submission (which was fun because I've always been a small skinny guy, lol, so it was fun to be the strong guy for a change).

When I'd grapple with dudes who were bigger than me and more skilled than me, they would throw me around like a ragdoll. Even if I did the escape correctly or whatever, most of the time it wouldn't work because they were stronger and they could just toy with me and submit me at their leisure. I would do a takedown and they would just stand there unmoved. Hilarious and pathetic at the same time, yet a great learning experience.

The big guys with no skill were interesting. At 160, grappling with a 200 pound noob was interesting, because my technique had to be extra good in order to work, because he was bigger than me.

It's about finding what works for you. If you notice that you can consistently beat people your size and smaller, but consistently lose to people who are bigger than you, maybe strength training needs a bit of emphasis. It's all diminishing returns. A highly skilled person with little strength would see quicker gain from increasing his strength and size than he would from trying to continue to increase his technique. And vice versa for more strength than skill. A noob powerlifter who learns a few techniques will be a much better fighter than a noob powerlifter who gets stronger but doesn't improve his technique.


"Sport specific weight training" is kind of a pseudo-science. At least it is for those guys doing golf swings on the cable machines. They're not really improving their golf games, but they're making their trainers rich.

Ability at a sport comes from neurological efficiency at the movement and strength of the muscles. Most exercises that "simulate your sport" are stupid. Swinging a golf club extension on a cable machine isn't going to make your golf swing faster or more powerful, but people intuitively assume it will so companies make a ton of money promoting this stuff.

If you want to improve your golf swing, 1) get stronger so your muscles are able to generate more force, and 2) get better at swinging a golf club by refining and perfecting your technique. All these people swinging weighted baseball bats and golf clubs aren't doing anything. They're also promoting neural pathways which are different from what they will use when they swing a normal baseball bat or golf club, which isn't going to improve anything anyway. In other words, they get better at swinging a weighted club... too bad they play with a normal club. It doesn't transfer over the way people think it does.

"but the normal club feels lighter now!"

Well no kidding, you were just swinging a heavier one. But there's no transfer of skill or power.

Want to swing a golf club or baseball bat harder?

Get strong so your muscles can generate force quickly and when you need it.

Get good at your skills and techniques.

This post is gold and should be stickied.

[bawang]

he doesnt have problem with strength. he has a phobia of size.

i disagree with sport specific, i think its great. everything i do i try to mimick speicif movement.

i stopped bench pressing and instead do punching with the cable machine. it really improved my punching.

[IronFist]

i stopped bench pressing and instead do punching with the cable machine. it really improved my punching.

I would wager that in a clinical setting where punching power and speed are measured, there was no change. You are working different neural pathways and there isn't really any carryover.

The exception would be if you were a noob and happened to develop some strength from the cable machine. That strength is carried over into your normal punching in the same way that strength from any exercise would carry over into your normal punching, but it has nothing to do with the sport-specific aspect of it and has everything to do with the fact that you got a little stronger.

You'd be able to punch a lot harder if you increased your squat, bench press, pullups/rows, and ab strength.

It is important that you continue to train your punching technique when doing this so you don't lose coordination and neurological efficiency at punching while you are getting stronger.

However, it feels like you can punch better after training with the cable machine.

It's tricky.

Cheers, brother.

[bawang]

actually man, i saw a clear improvement by looking at how much the heavy bag moved. i also telegraph a lot less.

i feel more connected and fluid because it coordinates my whole body. its not my main training for everything, but its my main training for punching.

i mean, it obviously coordinates your whole body and trains the same muscle memory, and bench press is isolated, so i dont know why you dont believe in it.

[Taixuquan99]

Again, untrained bodybuilders don't prove or disprove anything.

Total strawman. I'm sorry, but in the field I worked in, I was always around people who did bodybuilding and weight lifting. This is way more true than in office work. I'm scoffing at this idea that people need to worry about body builders. The odds of meeting a qualified bodybuilder who also can fight at all, outside of a martial arts school, is zero.


Noob bodybuilders showing up at a construction site where people who are conditioned and have been doing the work for years are performing better than them doesn't prove anything.

Not noob bodybuilders in many cases. No construction worker likes being paired with an inexperienced guy when doing muscle work. It's a fact. They don't care if it's a body builder.


Who makes fun of noobs because they suck at things? http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

It's the culture of the people who make the things you use and the places you live in. It would be foolish to confuse it with disrespect too easily.


Guess what? Skinny people get tapped out on their first day of class, too!

I made the case that the same thing happens to skinny people who can't hack it at the job at first.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, actually.

I was clear, that this argument raised several times about tma people needing to fear weightlifters is bunk. Statistically speaking, and in reality, as a construction worker, I've worked among more weight lifters, more ex-cons, more alcoholics, and more of society's dregs than any office worker. I've worked in heinous neighborhoods, at bad hours. Weight lifters are not a group any more likely to have a clue in fighting than any other, period. And serious weightlifters with families and lives often don't have time for martial arts. They're the least important group to worry about for anyone but the insecure.



But if there are two fighters of equal skill, my money is on the bigger and stronger one every time.

Most people who do fight training do some form of ST, even if an inefficient one.

Most people who do ST don't train fighting AT ALL, EVER.


Sometimes the bigger one isn't stronger, although the bigger one probably has better muscular endurance. A 150 pound powerlifter who can bench 350 and a 200 pound bodybuilder who can bench 315, if it was a contest to see who can rep 225 the most, I think the 200 pound guy would win.

I just arbitrarily picked those numbers.

Understood.


But geez, some of you guys are making it sound like bodybuilders are weaker than the general population. And slower and inflexible. lol.

My point is they are generally not good at applying their strength in new ways, just like anyone else, and that, for the most part, they are a segment of the population more interested in getting laid than fight training, which is to their merit, as it saves them time arguing about stupid sh1t online.



Bodybuilders are worse at stuff they haven't specifically trained for than people who have specifically trained for it. That's no surprise. That's why you guys tap them out when they are noobs and you have been training for years.

I bet bodybuilders are worse at guitar on their first day of lessons than someone who has been plying for 5 years.

I also bet bodybuilders are worse at fixing cars on their first day than people who have been mechanics for 15 years.

Wow, from this we can deduce that bodybuilding makes you bad at playing guitar and fixing cars!

Come on.

Exactly, and since the chances they've trained for any sort of fighting are aproaching zero, they are not a concern.

[IronFist]

Even if I was fighting an untrained fighter, I'd prefer he be a skinny dude rather than a bodybuilder or some other sort of big, strong guy.

I remember freshman year in college there was this guy on our floor who had been lifting weights for a few years and was bigger (bulkier) than everyone else.

Another guy on our floor did kung fu and had a rebreakable board. One day we were messing around holding the board for each other and breaking it and stuff, and the weight lifter dude said he wanted to try.

My friend held it while the weight lifter punched it. He broke it ok, but with really strange form, like he had never punched before and was just trying to muscle his way through it.

Like I said, it got the job done, and I'm sure it would hurt to be hit by that punch. But he obviously wasn't trained and probably wouldn't have done too well in a boxing fight.

Train that guy to throw a punch and to fight and he'll be a formidable, strong fighter.

Coordinated strong people are scary.

Bodybuilders often seem to suck at new things for a couple reason:

1) people naturally assume they will be awesome, so they get a little more flack for sucking than a skinny person would

2) as a result of their bodybuilding training, they are good at specific things (the muscular endurance and time under tension required for hypertrophy). Many of them don't have much cardio ability and tire easily. Cardio burns calories and is counterproductive to their goals sometimes. This is much like a marathoner who cannot squat a lot; because of his training, he is very good at one thing: running distances. Ask him to do 6 sets of curls with 75% of his 1RM and he might not be able to finish it.

3) some of them who do only weight lifting and have no other sport experience can be awkward when they first start playing a sport due to lack of body awareness. See #1.

4) a tendency to muscle through stuff, because usually they can. In grappling class, the noobs would always tire after a few minutes of grappling because they're trying to use strength the entire time. The more advanced people just wait it out. Of course, once they learn when to use their strength, it becomes a huge advantage

Man, back when I was like 18 I used to talk crap about weight lifting and bodybuilders. I really did think they were slow, inflexible, and basically every other TMA myth there is. It's like "pssh, I'd hit that guy 3 times before he even finished his first punch." And my favorite "I don't wanna get too big" (as if it's so easy to just accidentally bulk up and wake up looking like Arnold) :D

Good thing I never got in a fight. I would've gotten destroyed :D

[Taixuquan99]

Even if I was fighting an untrained fighter, I'd prefer he be a skinny dude rather than a bodybuilder or some other sort of big, strong guy.

I remember freshman year in college there was this guy on our floor who had been lifting weights for a few years and was bigger (bulkier) than everyone else.

Another guy on our floor did kung fu and had a rebreakable board. One day we were messing around holding the board for each other and breaking it and stuff, and the weight lifter dude said he wanted to try.

My friend held it while the weight lifter punched it. He broke it ok, but with really strange form, like he had never punched before and was just trying to muscle his way through it.

Like I said, it got the job done, and I'm sure it would hurt to be hit by that punch. But he obviously wasn't trained and probably wouldn't have done too well in a boxing fight.

Train that guy to throw a punch and to fight and he'll be a formidable, strong fighter.

Coordinated strong people are scary.

Bodybuilders often seem to suck at new things for a couple reason:

1) people naturally assume they will be awesome, so they get a little more flack for sucking than a skinny person would

2) as a result of their bodybuilding training, they are good at specific things (the muscular endurance and time under tension required for hypertrophy). Many of them don't have much cardio ability and tire easily. Cardio burns calories and is counterproductive to their goals sometimes. This is much like a marathoner who cannot squat a lot; because of his training, he is very good at one thing: running distances. Ask him to do 6 sets of curls with 75% of his 1RM and he might not be able to finish it.

3) some of them who do only weight lifting and have no other sport experience can be awkward when they first start playing a sport due to lack of body awareness. See #1.

4) a tendency to muscle through stuff, because usually they can. In grappling class, the noobs would always tire after a few minutes of grappling because they're trying to use strength the entire time. The more advanced people just wait it out. Of course, once they learn when to use their strength, it becomes a huge advantage

Man, back when I was like 18 I used to talk crap about weight lifting and bodybuilders. I really did think they were slow, inflexible, and basically every other TMA myth there is. It's like "pssh, I'd hit that guy 3 times before he even finished his first punch." And my favorite "I don't wanna get too big" (as if it's so easy to just accidentally bulk up and wake up looking like Arnold) :D

Good thing I never got in a fight. I would've gotten destroyed :D

I understand where you're coming from, I thought the same, but that was a long time ago, and was before I ever trained kung fu, so the association to kung fu doesn't exit for me. I see no conflict between the two.

[Vash]

In short, to build strength for ANY physical activity ( athletic or otherwise) we must do it via progressive resistence training and that training can be done wither with "weights" ( barbells, dumbells, keetlebells, stones, own bodyweight, etc) or with "muscular tension" that is done either with no movement ( isometric) or through a given range of movement ( iso-kinetic).


So how do TCMA do it?

You will find that BOTH methods are used in TCMA.
Modern equipment is not used where in the past, stone or wooden versions of "barbells, dumbells, keetlebells", were used.
Older TCMA training manuals show pictures of weight lifting as a crucial part of strength building in TCMA of all kinds.

Then we have static stance training, progressing from BW only to weight being added on, for the development of strong legs and balance.
The lifting of sand bags, stones, wooden logs, to build all around strength.

And we also have isometic exercises being done and within forms such as the "iron wire", the various "sanjian/sam chien, sarm bo gin" forms we find iso-kinetic exercises being performed.

This was the start of the thread. I'm thinking I missed the part where someone said "kung fu guys should fear the invincible bodybuilders."

Is the idea of training in the same way as an experienced, hypertrophy-oriented bodybuilder good for martial arts, TMA or MMA?

Of course not.

Is the idea of training using general physical preparation (overall physical health, strength, power) WITH skill-SPECIFIC work a better idea of MA?

Of course.

If the idea that ONLY skill-specific strength is needed and all other factors can be ignored is the prevalent one, then I am completely lost, and would like to see the light.

[Taixuquan99]

Is the idea of training using general physical preparation (overall physical health, strength, power) WITH skill-SPECIFIC work a better idea of MA?

Of course.

Agreed.


If the idea that ONLY skill-specific strength is needed and all other factors can be ignored is the prevalent one, then I am completely lost, and would like to see the light.

I don't think that's the idea. It's just easier to argue silly sh1t while waiting for YKW to post the next cool exercise from his repertoire.

[bawang]

hey guys, since started squatting my thighs are crushing my balls. can anyone help me

how do u guys deal with your muscular thighs crushing your balls

[Frost]

What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.

yep i know something that would hit it even better, its called doing your sport, strength should be built generally, maximum lifts to overload the body and make it adapt to the new stresses, and then do your sport to make it sports specific, its not that hard, nothing really replicates your sports so why bother, why not simply do your sport

[MightyB]

yep i know something that would hit it even better, its called doing your sport, strength should be built generally, maximum lifts to overload the body and make it adapt to the new stresses, and then do your sport to make it sports specific, its not that hard, nothing really replicates your sports so why bother, why not simply do your sport

BINGO!!! This post wins the prize. It's basically my point. I think our "argument" is in definition. When I think of the term "BodyBuilding", or "BodyBuilder" - it's different - it's its own discipline and one, that to me, has very little to do with MA. Weight and Strength Training is something you do for your sport. BodyBuilding is it's own sport.

[YouKnowWho]

why not simply do your sport
You can't do your sport 24/7. If you are a

- "striker", you use "heavy bag" at home.
- "grappler", you use "XYZ" at home (whatever that XYZ may be).

There is a limitation by using your opponent to develop your skill. You just can't develop your knock down power by punching on your opponent's head daily. The "heavy bag" is designed for good reason.

The important of a "heavy bag" for a striker is the same as the important of a "XYZ" for a grappler.

[Frost]

BINGO!!! This post wins the prize. It's basically my point. I think our "argument" is in definition. When I think of the term "BodyBuilding", or "BodyBuilder" - it's different - it's its own discipline and one, that to me, has very little to do with MA. Weight and Strength Training is something you do for your sport. BodyBuilding is it's own sport.

people use body building methods without bodybuilding and it is something you should do for your sport from time to time for specific goals, which most coaches recognise

[YouKnowWho]

At 4.40, you can see another TCMA weight training.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODE5NjYyNjA=.html

[Sardinkahnikov]

I've once read an article on the web on how bodybuilding routines can help you increase the potential gains of more strenght-focused exercises. I don't know how accurate this is tho, as it was based on the author's personal experience.

[Sardinkahnikov]

I bet bodybuilders are worse at guitar on their first day of lessons than someone who has been plying for 5 years.

I also bet bodybuilders are worse at fixing cars on their first day than people who have been mechanics for 15 years.

Wow, from this we can deduce that bodybuilding makes you bad at playing guitar and fixing cars!

Come on.

Hahah, thanks, this bit made me laught out loud

[Sardinkahnikov]

i stopped bench pressing and instead do punching with the cable machine. it really improved my punching.

you reminded me of a kung fu flick i saw a long time ago...

the hero got severely beaten up by the bad guy and wanted revenge (classic)

some master agrees to teach the hero a style of mantis in order to make him a better fighter. Now, the interesting thing is the mandatory kung fu movie training scenes consisted of two things, mostly:

1) hero doing all sorts of pushups (over a open well, with stones in his back, etc)
2) punching using a cable machine made of bamboo stringed with rubber

it looked a little more realistic than watching him learn forms and "secret techniques". I wish I could remember the title, it was one of the best kung fu flicks I've seen...

[IronFist]

I've once read an article on the web on how bodybuilding routines can help you increase the potential gains of more strenght-focused exercises. I don't know how accurate this is tho, as it was based on the author's personal experience.

A person can get stronger (meaning the maximal force that a muscle is able to produce) basically in one of two ways:

1) increasing the size of the muscle (giving the muscle more potential, like a bigger engine in a car)

2) improving the efficiency of the central nervous system, which may not always be accompanied by an increase in muscle size (for example, a powerlifter who wishes to stay in the 150 pound weight class but who increases his bench from 280 to 300 while remaining at the same weight; to continue the car analogy, this is like making an engine more efficient without increasing its displacement)

#1 is achieved by training a specific way (bodybuilding style) and eating a specific way (bodybuilding style, again, with a surplus of calories)

#2 is achieved by training in a specific way (heavy weights, low reps, long rest periods, lower volume) and not eating so much as to gain weight.

So to answer your question, how can bodybuilding routines increase the potential gains for strength focused exercises?

By increasing the muscle's size, you give it more potential.

To continue the car analogy again, a turbocharged 2 liter engine may produce as much power as a naturally aspirated 4 liter engine. But what happens when you add a turbocharger to a 4 liter engine?

Think of bodybuilding as increasing your displacement.

Think of strength-based training as turbocharging.

To use a real world example, imagine a naturally skinny ectomorph guy who has been training for a few years but still only weighs 140 pounds, but he can bench press 225 because he's done some powerlifting type training. For a hobbyist weightlifter, 225 is a pretty awesome bench for someone who only weighs 140.

Now imagine a naturally big dude, a mesomorph who weighs 190 but doesn't really train that hard, but he can also bench press 225.

The smaller dude is more "optimized" and highly trained, his CNS is more efficient, yet they are roughly the same strength.

If the bigger guy started training seriously, he has the potential to become much stronger than the already efficient smaller guy.

All else being equal, bigger muscles have more potential. Of course, there are cases of smaller guys being stronger than bigger guys due to training/genetics/etc.

[YouKnowWho]

You can lift weight to build strong muscle. You can also use your weight in such a way that not only to build strong muscle but also to enhance your TCMA skill. That's the intention of the TCMA ST - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

[bawang]

You can lift weight to build strong muscle. You can also use your weight in such a way that not only to build strong muscle but also to enhance your TCMA skill. That's the intention of the TCMA ST - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9QaYyLiwjc&feature=channel_video_title

[sanjuro_ronin]

General all around strength s something we ALL need, whether to carry the groceries or push a stalled car or get the fridge out of the basement.
Sport specific training is what SOME need, and WE as MA fall into that some.
So quite obviously, we need to do BOTH, not either/or.

[ginosifu]

General all around strength s something we ALL need, whether to carry the groceries or push a stalled car or get the fridge out of the basement.
Sport specific training is what SOME need, and WE as MA fall into that some.
So quite obviously, we need to do BOTH, not either/or.

Very True... agreed we need general all around strength and then specific strength programs for whatever your goals are!

good post

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9QaYyLiwjc&feature=channel_video_title

That's the machine I use the most in the gym. I like to pull 50 lb weigh 300 times as my 1st exercise in the gym. If you think about yourself as a "grappler" instead of just a "striker", you can do a lot of throwing drills.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9546/weightpulley4.jpg

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/5606/weightpulley2.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4936/pulley2.jpg

[bawang]

hey man, i really like the first exercise. im going to try it at the gym. do u know any more cool shuai jiao exercises witht eh cabl emachine?

[YouKnowWho]

You can use your

- arms to pull the weight.
- body rotation to pull the weight.

It will develop different combat abilities for you.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5728/weightpulley1.jpg

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8484/weightpulley3.jpg

[bawang]

thanks man, i already do a viaration of those. i never saw the first one though, it looks very interesting.