Bruce Lee and Southern Mantis

[TenTigers]

I recall an article about Hawkins Cheung and Bruce Lee, where Bruce Lee writes in a letter,"There are people here(in NYC Chinatown) waiting on tables that have greater skill than, dare I say it, Sifu himself!" or, something like that.
It is well-known that BL did in fact hook up with the SPM folks, and even met Lam Sang, and Gin Foon Mark.

On the other thread, there is a discussion about some pics of BL, one of which was distinctly SPM., and I've seen other poses by him doing SPM as well. I have heard that he was influenced by his experiences with the SPM guys.
Any info on this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think he ever took formal lessons but what BL did have that many seem to over look, was this "gift" of being able to pick things up quick and understand how they work.
Chuck Norris once made a comment that BL had very little kicking skill when they met and that He ( Chuck) as a far better kicker, but the he taught him a few kicks and in no time at all BL has surpassed him in kicking skill.

[Fa Xing]

Here (http://youtu.be/hneN6bTzl-M) is a video of Bruce doing a lot of trapping and chi sao work in his early years. From what I've been told by others is that you can see a combination of both Wing Chun and SPM.

Some of this has been modified and his still used in JKD trapping.

[Dale Dugas]

He trained with Gin Foon Mark Shifu for a short time.

It was documented in Dragon and Tiger by Sid Campbell.

BL trained with Shifu Mark and was impressed with Shifu Mark.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He trained with Gin Foon Mark Shifu for a short time.

It was documented in Dragon and Tiger by Sid Campbell.

BL trained with Shifu Mark and was impressed with Shifu Mark.

Ah, see, thanks Dale.
I didn't know that it was "official".

[pudaoking]

There is an entire article about Bruce Lee learning from Gin Foon Mark and the SPM connection in the March 1999 issue of Kung Fu Qigong magazine available here on Gene's website. I read it and it is very informative.

[Firehawk4]

I thought Bruce Lee learned Southern Mantis from Yueng Fook plus some Red Boat Wing Chun back in Seattle back in 1959 when he first came to America he also had a Southern Mantis book that he got from some Vancuver China town bookstore ? I had a DVD of Yueng Fook doing his Southern Mantis and Wing Chun at one time but i gave it to the Ving Tsun Museum Yueng Fook new alot of Kung Fu Systems as he trained in The Red boat Opera his system is still taught by his students in Seattle.

[LaterthanNever]

fIREHAWK beat me to the punch,


Bruce learned from a man by the name of Master Fook Yeung for..I believe it was 8 years when he came to Seattle, WA.

Master Yeung did a variant of Red Boat Wing Chun which had some aspects of Southern Praying mantis in it.

[pudaoking]

In the article I mentioned above, Gin Foon Mark says that Bruce came to him in the late 1950's when bruce was 18 years old. Bruce was out in NY visiting his father who was performing in a chinese theatre. A mutual friend of Bruce's father recommended for Bruce to meet Gin Foon Mark, who showed him the basics of SPM and trained Bruce for about a month before Bruce had to go back to California. The article goes into detail about what was taught and the effect it had on Bruce's outlook on martial arts.

[Faruq]

Wow. This is stuff I'd never heard. Bruce studied SPM! And apparently under 2 different teachers. I just saw a Douglas Wong interview done at the school of one of his students in Arizona where he was telling how when he was young you couldn't even learn certain styles unless you were from a certain village, or your family was from a certain village. Bruce must've come from a really important family to get introduced to all these different Si Fu of all these arts and to have actually been taught real stuff by them too! I mean, last I heard Yip Man wouldn't even teach him because Bruce was part German nor would anyone in Yip's school practice with him; so WSL and Willie Cheung had to teach him and practice with him. But here in the U.S. he's learning kung fu from all the top people. And don't people also say that Bruce even put elements of Bak Mei into his Jeet Kune Do? He must've been introduced to a Pak Mei Pai Si Fu here at one point as well.

[TenTigers]

I don't recall the details, so I was hoping others could shed some light on the subject.
What I recall is that Bruce sought out Lam Sang, and when they'd met, Lam passed him off to Mark Foon. Not sure if Lam did or did not touch hands first, or if Bruce was too informal to him, or what, but apparently they did meet, and Bruce and Mark Foon did train together on several occasions.

[bawang]

sounds like bruce lee was a kung fu window shopper. train for one month then leave.

[Dark Chi]

He learnd what he could-it wasn't that masters wanted to close him down,not at all,he was bitter that no-one wanted to teach him.Its a fact that not even Yip man taught him or finished chum que never mind bui jee.
That's why jeet kune do was criticised that it wasn't an art and as training methods strung together.

of course he met many sifu's and critised that they were to slow etc etc and thats why we have more and more families go underground and let the styles revert to kick boxing etc etc.

Thanks for reading

[TopCrusader]

sounds like bruce lee was a kung fu window shopper. train for one month then leave.

He flew to NYC in June of 1958 to be with his father while he was performing in the city. He was only in NYC while his father was there so he did what any of us would do and seek out somebody to train with. When his father left NYC, so did Bruce who went back to San Francisco (This was before he moved to Seattle and began training with Fook Yueng)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I don't think he ever took formal lessons but what BL did have that many seem to over look, was this "gift" of being able to pick things up quick and understand how they work.
Chuck Norris once made a comment that BL had very little kicking skill when they met and that He ( Chuck) as a far better kicker, but the he taught him a few kicks and in no time at all BL has surpassed him in kicking skill.

I heard a similar anecdote, I think it was in one of the Bruce Lee Docos. He met a Tai Ji Sifu (Wu I think) who offered to teach him Tai Ji in exchange for Cha Cha lessons. Bruce learned the Tai Ji (form, I presume?) to what the Sifu says was an acceptable level in just a few days, and then Bruce left - the Sifu never got to learn the Cha-Cha.

Just for kicks, here's Hawkins Cheung doing some Tai Ji:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0TEAqj-O20

So the West Coast guys definitely cross-trained. :)

[TopCrusader]

I heard a similar anecdote, I think it was in one of the Bruce Lee Docos. He met a Tai Ji Sifu (Wu I think) who offered to teach him Tai Ji in exchange for Cha Cha lessons. Bruce learned the Tai Ji (form, I presume?) to what the Sifu says was an acceptable level in just a few days, and then Bruce left - the Sifu never got to learn the Cha-Cha.

Just for kicks, here's Hawkins Cheung doing some Tai Ji:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0TEAqj-O20

So the West Coast guys definitely cross-trained. :)

Hello, the story you recount sounds exactly like what is presented in the documentary "Bruce Lee: the man and the Legend" (as well as another docu, "Bruce Lee, the Legend") which has a few minutes of Shiu Hon Sang talking about Bruce, trading lessons for Cha Cha. Shiu Hon Sang to my knowledge was not a Tai Ji Sifu, but a graduate of Jing Mo (Chin Woo, Jing Wu, etc) and therefore taught many Northern style forms.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hello, the story you recount sounds exactly like what is presented in the documentary "Bruce Lee: the man and the Legend" (as well as another docu, "Bruce Lee, the Legend") which has a few minutes of Shiu Hon Sang talking about Bruce, trading lessons for Cha Cha. Shiu Hon Sang to my knowledge was not a Tai Ji Sifu, but a graduate of Jing Mo (Chin Woo, Jing Wu, etc) and therefore taught many Northern style forms.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

[Fa Xing]

Bruce's father was the Tai Ji practitioner who taught Bruce, I'm not sure how much he learned though. However, he had come to the conclusion the TJQ took too long to learn how to fight with according to him, and wanted something more practical.

[TopCrusader]

While we are on the subject of Bruce Lee and Southern Mantis.....I posted this picture for consideration months ago, so I will do the same again as its a relative topic. I dont practice Southern Mantis but Ive been told they will use bamboo much like the Mook Jong WC dummy to train sensitivity, energy in their hand motions.
This particular picture was taken in Hong Kong by Robert Lee, in 1963 when Bruce was back visiting his family.

[TenTigers]

we do identical drills in SPM. :cool:

[TopCrusader]

we do identical drills in SPM. :cool:

TenTigers, thankyou for the information! I wonder if you could comment on Bruce's hand positions, if they look like typical positions from SPM? Also, the bamboo training like what is pictured.....does it go by a specific name or just "Bamboo pole training"?
Thanks :D

[TenTigers]

I have heard it called,"Water Dividing Kung," I believe it is in one of those 72 Shaolin arts books.(but we just call it Bamboo pole training!) We do it with a partner holding rattan or bamboo staves. You can spread them apart, or put your arms on the outside and pull them in. The arms rotate/spiral as you do this.
It looks like Bruce Lee is doing an outside moor sao-grinding arm and strike. This is one of the first techniques you are taught. It is similar in appearance to a fook-sao, but the energy is different, and it can be played many different ways.

[TopCrusader]

I have heard it called,"Water Dividing Kung," I believe it is in one of those 72 Shaolin arts books.(but we just call it Bamboo pole training!) We do it with a partner holding rattan or bamboo staves. You can spread them apart, or put your arms on the outside and pull them in. The arms rotate/spiral as you do this.
It looks like Bruce Lee is doing an outside moor sao-grinding arm and strike. This is one of the first techniques you are taught. It is similar in appearance to a fook-sao, but the energy is different, and it can be played many different ways.

Thanks for the info!! I looked up the Shaolin 72 arts you are referring to, "water seperation skill" or Fen Shui Gong as its called in one translation. In what I read, the purpose seems to be training your forward energy in crashing through a obstruction while the bamboo provides resistance. So therefore you could train a number of "hands" , training your limbs ability to take oncoming pressure & move forward with it. Sound like what you are trying to accomplish in SPM? Of course the difference here is in the Shaolin art, its a "wall" you add bamboo with. In the picture of Bruce, its just natural bamboo trees.
Thanks

[wolf3001]

I don't know how true it is but I heard some where the Bruce Lee's father had friends who introduced Bruce to several arts before he started Wing Chun. Nothing I read ever said that he did any one style for very long before taking up Wing Chun.

[Fa Xing]

That's probably true, Bruce's goal was to find the best art to use when fighting on the streets.

[hakka jai]

Hi folks
Seen this clip om utube, look for the spm hand posture by Brucie at 2:57.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=QG2M9yVJ_s8.

:)

[TopCrusader]

Hi folks
Seen this clip om utube, look for the spm hand posture by Brucie at 2:57.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=QG2M9yVJ_s8.

:)

Wow I guess I never really noticed before...it looks like a Crane movement to me, what makes you say its SPM? (not that I dont believe you, just curious lol!)