How Does the West Train Internal?

[ShaolinDan]

Sanjuro says,

The consensus seems to be that, YES, western systems do have the very same "internals" as eastern ones, that one will indeed find the same attributes and techniques and practices, the difference simply being the "jargon" that is used.
Truly, if one sees a high level athlete perform their sport one sees all that is "internal": structure, relaxation, alignment, full body union, etc, etc.
It does truly seem to be a case of Tomato/tomahtoe.

I agree.

So...there's lot's of talk here about Chinese (and other 'Eastern') Internal training methods...

How are Internals trained in the 'Western World'? Is it different, similar, what do you think?

Oops, probably should have put this in the internal forum...feel free to move. Thanks.

[Ray Pina]

There's an internal way of punching. It's not straight. It has an arc to it. It utilizes the same shoulder motion as using a heavy hammer and/or sawing wood. Unlike push-it-out punching, you can generate power on the way out and on the way back.... or course there is linking it to the shoulder/hip/foot, etc., but everybody does that.

Also internal, is the emphasis on structure. Structural support and maintaining it in motion and under pushing/pulling scenarios.... I've trained this in MMA with head drag drills but it's not the same, different, and less detailed.

Lastly is the stuff everyone talks about. The standing. The postures. The running the channel for 30 mins minimum.

I do this standing in San Ti, Hold the Tree posture and the opening move of Taiji.... though not as much as I should. And it requires doing it for a while to evolve with it. But it contributes something.

[wenshu]

Sanjuro says,


I agree.

So...there's lot's of talk here about Chinese (and other 'Eastern') Internal training methods...

How are Internals trained in the 'Western World'? Is it different, similar, what do you think?

Oops, probably should have put this in the internal forum...feel free to move. Thanks.

Ask a fighter pilot.

[David Jamieson]

How does someone train internal? Internal what?

Your heart beats, your blood flows, your bowels move and air goes in and out.
Your spleen breaks down food and turns it into blood, your pancreas does a few things, but it produces insulin, your muscles will grow with resistance placed on them over time, your bones will grow through the micro fracture process.

diaphragmatic breathing is preferable to lung sucking.

Standing still is not inherently internal.
visualisation is not inherently internal.
You cannot train your organs to do anything different than what they already do. In rare cases, you'll find a holy man who can reputedly slow his heart rate and there are natural outliers who can do this without training at all. But good lucj finding a living example who can readily demonstrate any of that.

so, I have yet to hear any valid description of internal training really.

when you train, you train the whole body. The categorization and fragmentation of intellectual ideas applied to something as simple as the flesh and bone you are born with is often ludicrous.

you can have gross training and refined specific training.

internal/external is a crock and in all my years I have never been given a valid explanation of it. I accept it as divisions of martial arts, particularly chinese and that's about it. Internal = bagua, taiji and xingyi

Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts. which only casts further dim light on that concept.

the whole idea of making the act of fighting some esoteric ritual is mind boggling really. but then...i do practice tcma so...lol :confused: :p

[IronFist]

There's an internal way of punching. It's not straight. It has an arc to it. It utilizes the same shoulder motion as using a heavy hammer and/or sawing wood. Unlike push-it-out punching, you can generate power on the way out and on the way back.... or course there is linking it to the shoulder/hip/foot, etc., but everybody does that.

Are you saying that is an "internal" way of punching?

Sounds similar to the mechanics behind how a baseball pitcher throws a ball.


The running the channel for 30 mins minimum.

What does that mean?

[ShaolinDan]

the whole idea of making the act of fighting some esoteric ritual is mind boggling really. but then...i do practice tcma so...lol :confused: :p


yeah...it's not like that's been going on since the 'Dawn of Man' or anything like that. :)

Anyway, why don't we stick to athletes, and Sanjuro's description, "structure, relaxation, alignment...etc," that will keep things simple (relatively).

[IronFist]

so, I have yet to hear any valid description of internal training really.

To me, "internal" means you're doing something different from strictly external movement.

Anyone can do external. You just move and do it.

Therefore "internal" has to have another component; that which makes it internal.

Usually this is qi.

For example, a regular palm strike vs. a palm strike with qi.

I've never seen any quantifiable difference. There needs to be some sort of double blind study, but I don't think that's possible in this case.

People who do the internal stuff say they can "feel" a difference, so maybe there is something to that.

I've also never seen a qigong tric... er, demo, that couldn't be replicated with good (external) conditioning, proper leverage, and body mechanics.


internal/external is a crock and in all my years I have never been given a valid explanation of it. I accept it as divisions of martial arts, particularly chinese and that's about it. Internal = bagua, taiji and xingyi

Agreed for the most part.

I mean, I've generally come to accept that "internal means there's a qi component" or sometimes, a lack of external component. For example, "internal iron body" is conditioning the body to take strikes without actually hitting the body during training (beats me how this would be done. I've only heard about it. I've seen some demos claiming to be this, but they were all flexing their abs and other muscles in the bodies at the moment of impact which is *gasp* the same way anyone takes a strike).

Bagua, taiji, xingyi are "internal" because they seek to increase one's power through qi development rather than increase one's power through things like weight lifting, pushups, etc.

When you have developed your qi, you can hit harder, or so the story goes.


Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts. which only casts further dim light on that concept.

This * 100. Absolutely agree.

[wenshu]

visualisation is not inherently internal.
So visualization takes place outside your body?



You cannot train your organs to do anything different than what they already do. In rare cases, you'll find a holy man who can reputedly slow his heart rate and there are natural outliers who can do this without training at all. But good lucj finding a living example who can readily demonstrate any of that.


Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn't be allowed near a computer when you're this drunk.

[IronFist]

Proper structure doesn't make something internal.

You need proper structure to deadlift and squat without hurting yourself, but powerlifting isn't an internal art.

Now, if the lifters were lifting the weight with their qi...

[IronFist]

So visualization takes place outside your body?



Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn't be allowed near a computer when you're this drunk.

Visualizing a movement has been shown to fire the same neurons as actually doing the movement.

I agree visualization is a very beneficial technique. I do it when I cannot train, and also when preparing for something like a powerlifting meet. It helps maintain neurological efficiency for a movement.

It turns out the old advice of "see yourself doing it" was actually based in truth.

Is that "internal" training?

I don't believe so, not in the way that I've come to understand "internal" from a CMA viewpoint.

Mental, yes.

Internal, no.

That doesn't mean visualization takes place outside your body :p By that logic, weight lifting is also internal because the muscles are contracting inside your body.

[ShaolinDan]

Proper structure doesn't make something internal.

You need proper structure to deadlift and squat without hurting yourself, but powerlifting isn't an internal art.

Now, if the lifters were lifting the weight with their qi...

Aren't they though(the best one's anyway)? So how do they train that?

[wenshu]

Bagua, taiji, xingyi are "internal" because they seek to increase one's power through qi development rather than increase one's power through things like weight lifting, pushups, etc.


You're just regurgitating the myths. Bagua, taiji, xingyi all employ strength and conditioning, anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.

[IronFist]

Aren't they though(the best one's anyway)? So how do they train that?

Aren't they what? I'm not sure what you're asking.

[ShaolinDan]

using 'qi.'

Let's not argue about the definition of internal vs external, or qi, it will never end...Just looking for the Western training methods that correspond to (or don't) Eastern 'internal' methods whatever, you[the poster] think that means...

[David Jamieson]

So visualization takes place outside your body?



Dude,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofeedback

You really shouldn't be allowed near a computer when you're this drunk.

lifting weight takes place outside the body? punching is not inherent to the structural platform delivering it?

the body is a whole. visualisation is of mind. Is that inside or outside the body? I say it is both because it is mind. Mind sees what is far, hears what is hidden and is the sensory perception device that the body uses. It sits inside your skull but is engaged fully in the exterior world. so, is it internal?

biofeedback is what it is. You can calm yourself and relax the whole body. BUt you can't hold your breath by will alone until you are dead, it is impossible to do this as your body will autonomously start up again whether you consciously participate or not.

You need to keep your sharp tongue tethered in your head when making comments sometimes.

[YouKnowWho]

To me, "internal" means you're doing something different from strictly external movement.

How do you train

- "internal' roundhouse kick or
- "internal" hip throw?

I truly don't know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing "hip throw" vs. any external guy doing it.

Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.

[Ray Pina]

Also, as an added anomaly, there is the most amount of blah blah blah and the least amount of fitness and ability to fight coming from so called internal martial arts.

In my opinion I found internalists more willing to compare. Partly out of a doofy obligation to lineage honor, and partly out of curiosity if the other guy "had" something.

Almost always this involved friendly taking of balance, domination of limbs. A couple times moderate sparring.

This was preferable to the Wing Chun guys who thought they were going to speed punch me a thousand times because "I trained internal" and wore hippy pants. They wanted to fight... and I beat them silly crying for mercy: "Alright. Alright" Not even thinking about tapping. Pleading to be released.

As for fighting, pure internal. I think there's the children of Master William C.C. Chen and me. Who else has gone out to fight?

[IronFist]

You're just regurgitating the myths. Bagua, taiji, xingyi all employ strength and conditioning, anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.

That's cool. I've seen some strength training stuff, like bagua guys walking around wearing weight vests and stuff.

Why are those 3 arts considered internal, then? Why all the focus on qi generation? Wouldn't the principles of the arts still work without the qi?

It seems like the general idea is the arts won't work without qi skills. The whole "it takes 10 years to be able to fight with tai chi" thing. Seems silly to me.

If the movements are effective for fighting, people should train tai chi and powerlifting and kettlebells. Within 1 year you could crush all those pajama wearing internal development guys that had been training for 10 years. Except you know they would complain: "you're using too much muscle for push hands! You're messing up my sensitivity!"

There are the myths and legends of the tai chi (or other internal art) masters who, because of such qi development, could not be damaged from strikes (iron vest/body) and could cause massive damage with a single strike because of their ability to strike with qi (iron/cotton/whatever palm). They say that level of power takes decades to develop and that's if you're dedicated and do your qi exercises every day.

[David Jamieson]

In my opinion, anyone's training will benefit more by shedding the pseudo-intellectual dross and going for the methods that are cut and dried and produce the results you want.

Don't know what you want? get out and go think about it, you can't window shop your way to fitness and kung fu. You need a plan, you need to work towards it and you need to recognize and maintain when you achieve it.

In anything.

Good Kung Fu is pretty intense training. If you spend a lot of time discussing the merits of heel breathing vs carry the moon qigong, you are probably in a cult center.

If you spend a lot of time sweating and working, then you are in the right place.

It's as simple as that for me. :)

[IronFist]

using 'qi.'

Let's not argue about the definition of internal vs external, or qi, it will never end...Just looking for the Western training methods that correspond to (or don't) Eastern 'internal' methods whatever, you[the poster] think that means...

No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.

[ShaolinDan]

Honestly, to me (and I'm no expert, but I still think I'm right) you're doing something internally whenever you are in 'the zone.' Don't ask me to define 'the zone.' (And please don't pick a bone) So...how does the 'Western' athlete train that? Or doesn't he/she?

So far I've heard 'visualization.' Anyone got anything else good? :)

[David Jamieson]

No, powerlifters are not using qi to assist in their lifts.

well, by my understanding of qi, yes they are by merit of being alive. :)

[IronFist]

How do you train

- "internal' roundhouse kick or
- "internal" hip throw?

I truly don't know there can be any difference between a Taiji guy doing "hip throw" vs. any external guy doing it.

Please help me on this question that has bothered me for many years.

You don't.

A roundhouse kick is external.

So is a hip throw.

I guess if a taiji guy does a hip throw he's using qi to assist in some way that a Judo guy or a sambo guy is not.

Unless the taiji guy is just running qi through his body and happens to do an external hip throw that doesn't require any qi. And in that case, it's not internal, either.

[ShaolinDan]

Waaaaaah!!!! Gosh, ask a simple question...:p

[YouKnowWho]

A roundhouse kick is external. So is a hip throw.
If a Taiji guy cannot execute an "internal"

- hip throw (throw)
- roundhouse kick (kick), or
- arm bar (lock),

that means "internal" can only apply on "arm strike (punch)", 1/4 of the total TCMA application. So what's the value of "internal" then?

[IronFist]

Honestly, to me (and I'm no expert, but I still think I'm right) you're doing something internally whenever you are in 'the zone.' Don't ask me to define 'the zone.' (And please don't pick a bone) So...how does the 'Western' athlete train that? Or doesn't he/she?

So far I've heard 'visualization.' Anyone got anything else good? :)

I believe being "in the zone" results from a certain combination/proportion of neurotransmitters in the brain (not qi). The effect can be replicated with drugs (which have a quantifiable influence on brain chemistry) for a short period of time.

It's tough to train "being in the zone." It usually happens spontaneously, and if you try to make it happen, it doesn't; in fact, if you try to make it happen, you usually make your performance worse. It's like when you get all inside your head and overthink things in the moment, you actually do worse.

In fact, at least personally, I usually don't fully realize I was "in the zone" until it's over. Cuz when I'm in the zone, I'm usually too busy kicking ass and winning at whatever I'm doing to stop and think about it. It's almost like time dilation for me.

[IronFist]

If a Taiji cannot execute an "internal" hip throw or "internal" roundhouse kick, that means "internal" may not be able to apply into our daily life such as lifing a object. That also means an "internal" guy will have to train "external" as well.


I agree with all of this.

You cannot lift an object with qigong. Need to move that heavy object over there? The more muscles you can flex, the more overall tension you will generate, and the better chance you have of lifting it. This is documented in medical science.

Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something. If they wanted to lift it with internal technique, I mean. I dunno.


So what's the value of "internal"?

Proponents say you can do more damage with a strike if you use qi, or you can take harder strikes to the body if you use qi. I've only heard about qi infused palm strikes, however. I've never heard of a qi powered shin kick or backfist or anything.

I would love to see a quantifiable demonstration of a qi strike delivering more power, but so far, everything I've seen has been an application of physical conditioning, body mechanics, and leverage. It's especially silly when the guy doing the "qi break" is a large guy who jumps up in the air and uses all his body weight and momentum on the way down to perform the break. Qi power!

To do a legit qi break, I would like to see something that cannot be replicated by external conditioning, body mechanics, and physics/leverage.

Even so, some of the demos I've seen are impressive. For example, being able to break 5 bricks requires a good deal of training. It requires physical conditioning, mental confidence, and a decent amount of strength. I don't understand why people can't just be proud of their abilities, and instead have to say they are breaking with qi power, especially when they are jumping up in the air first and coming down with all their bodyweight and momentum behind it.

There are a lot of people out there who want to believe they have mystic power, or who want others to believe they have mystic power. And there are a lot of people who will believe them! Just look at all the kong jing believers. Yet James Randi still has his $1,000,000...

[bawang]

how does westerner train internal?

in the presence of fighters, deny qi and talk about how they trained knife fighting and wrestling.

when the fighter leaves the room, do forms and push hands.

[bawang]

Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something.

in traditional fantasy kung fu novels, the heroes are six foot tall and have huge muskles, for example water margin.

in modern times the heroes are skinny and look like woman from far away, some times if you bang bang bang in anoos it even feel like a woman.

i miss the old days when kung fu heroes massacred entire towns and comiited cannibalism.

[Pork Chop]

I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.

[ShaolinDan]

I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.

This is more or less my 'Chinese' understanding of 'qi.' I don't know why everyone has to make it so complicated (well, I kind of do, but I'd rather not think about it).

[bawang]

i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.

even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.

[Taixuquan99]

I've always wondered how close Chinese qi is with Japanese ki (気).
I believe they're the same character, but I imagine that the usage is a bit different.
In Japanese, 気 is a bit esoteric, but not so abstract as to require that much discussion (at least for people who speak the language).
The term/kanji/rootword 気 implies atmosphere, mood, air, nature/disposition, intention/motivation, appearance of/feeling of, spirit, mind, or heart.
You say 気を入れる (ki wo ireru) to mean "put some effort into it" - or "apply a little elbow grease".
やる気 (yaruki); is like your motivation to do something.
It's basically the meeting point of mood, attitude, focus, intention, spirit, disposition, and atmosphere.
Outside of kiai masters, you don't really hear it being used to describe invisible lightning bolts or magic death rays.

I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.
I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.
Sure, maybe I've only got 4 basic punches in my "sport", or 8 "limbs" used in about 20 different ways; but i can break down the mechanics of what every applicable joint is doing at every microsecond during each of those movements.

In the Chinese approach, it's not that different. It is energy, and it is considered inseparable from pattern. Thus, there is a physical pattern to any expression of energy. It is not separate from it in such a definition. To believe that muscles play zero role is contrary to the definition of qi.

In most of the internals, like many styles, an premium is placed on micromanagement of forces. Ability to do this, in practice, is almost always interpreted by most good internal martial artists I've met, as good chi. This is body mechanics, but also it is entrainment in response to outside body mechanics.

Mixing responses here, but I've seen one internal set that does a round kick. The key difference between it and some round kicks I've seen is that the practitioner starts middle or back weighted, sinks and digs in(while arching slightly their lower back as they drop) and rise slightly and tuck as their torso shifts forward and they do the kick. The idea is to let gravity pull you down as you sink, and try to redirect that into the kick, while involving a spinal whip.

The problem with defining internal as good body mechanics is that "good body mechanics" is a more meaningless term than "chi". What is deemed good body mechanics changes constantly, and is only useful in the narrowest of uses. It's as psuedoscientific a term as ergonomics, or how to make people able to do something that isn't good for them repetitively more times before they aren't happy at work.

I'd also say there is not an internal hip throw in internal kung fu that I've seen, but I would also say there's room for one.

There is one subset of hip motion in the better internals I've seen that I haven't seen as comprehensively applied in other styles, but perhaps I'm just not aware of it in those styles. The round kick I describe has it.

[Taixuquan99]

i hate to break it to you guys, but even external songshan shaolin kung fu use visualization of qi.

even in beginner horse stance punching, shaolin kung fu uses visualization of qi.

External guys like to pretend otherwise, while pretending that external kung fu schools fight any more than internal ones.

[bawang]

even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time. what is the point?

[Taixuquan99]

even worse are the internal guys that dont believe in qi, and just do push hands all the time.

The internal guys who do push hands all the time are a rarity. Most do the form all the time.

IME, people playing push hands get about ten minutes of focused push hands for an hour of time spent repeating and talking about one move that worked once.

Which, interestingly enough, also describes a lot of sparring training.

Shut up and play your guitar is an important expression to know. You need to know what you're doing, but you also need to practice it. If all your training time is spent examining conceptual models and techniques, and almost none is spent in a manner where you are CONSTANTLY (read: without stopping to discuss) trying to pull it out of thin air, the knowledge is inaccessible.

[bawang]

why you tell me to play guitar? i dont want play guitar. you shat up.

you have it upside down man. people who do only tai chi forms dont pretend they can fight. people who push hands all the time do. they think its sparring.

[Lucas]

they think its sparring.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Taixuquan99]

why you tell me to play guitar? i dont want play guitar. you shat up.

I from Kansas, we whoop people up for telling us not to tell them to shut up.


you have it upside down man. people who do only tai chi forms dont pretend they can fight. people who push hands all the time do. they think its sparring.

No one does push hands all the time, which is why they don't know it's a drill. They do push hands for three minutes, followed by one of them or the teacher taalking for twenty minutes about what to do versus move x or why something was a good move, followed by three more minutes of push hands, followed by twenty more minutes of talk.

If every round wrestlers practiced together their coach repeatedly brought the session to a halt and talked endlessly, so that there was 6 minutes of wrestling and an hour of why wrestlers are so tough, they'd suck.

Every time a push hands person whines about "you used strength" and they got pushed nonetheless, then gives up pushing with that person even though they weren't direspectful, merely "strong", is another moment that doen't count as push hands. If my response in push hands can't convince you to be subtler because your use of strength isn't informed by technique, then I can definitely use the practice facing what you do until I myself recognize the worth of technique, and don't just act like I recognize it.

No one doing disciplined push hands should be unaware of this. It's doing push hands amidst random lectures and "no, that's not push hands" that you're talking about. And those people mostly do the form.

And the people who just do the form are the worst at saying they're deadly, EXCEPT the modern wushu folk, who just like being pretty witty and wise.

[IronFist]

I've always thought of "internal" as just good body mechanics, maybe coupled with coordinating your movements with your breath.

Well in that case, everything is internal.

Western boxers exhale when punching (coordinated movement with breath).

Powerlifters breathe a certain way when lifting, etc.

I never understand that to be the definition of "internal," however.

Structure and mechanics and all that are important, but not what I consider "internal."

However, from what I've heard, structure and mechanics are required for internal practice to be successful, which is why there's so much importance placed on proper structure and posture in things like standing qigong, tai chi, etc.

But structure and mechanics don't make something internal.

At least that's my understanding.


I'm amused when "internal" masters make fun of western styles like boxing, calling it "external" and lacking skill, and then proceed to mimic boxers with mechanics that would get them laughed out of most gyms.

That's cuz they know they're no match for their qi blasts.

I never understood making fun of it for "lacking skill," either, especially when pretty much any boxer would be willing to spar.

I really think it's a bit of an ego/brainwash thing.

People don't want to admit that what they've studied for years and years and years may not be very good (wasted time, embarrassment, plus the popular idea of a guy who has studied a martial art for a long period of time being a super ninja master (thanks, Hollywood!)).

Seriously.

Can you imagine the embarrassment if a 10 year tai chi guy lost to a boxer with 6 months experience? Huge blow to his ego, especially if he was raised in a school and fed this "internal arts are superior" stuff for 10 years.

Part 2 is that a lot of those guys actually believe it.

I believed I was an awesome fighter, like totally unfounded confidence, purely because of how I trained. My ancient strength sets are superior to weight lifting, big muscles make you slow, blah blah, all the normal nonsense that still gets passed down today by clueless instructors. I'm awesome and elite (special training techniques, dit da jow, qigong, inner devlopment, etc.) and these other guys all fight like uncivilized savages. I got schooled by a noob grappler in like 30 seconds. I was like wtf, years of training for me, and this dude with 3 months experience just wiped the floor with me.

When you actually start testing your skills, you figure stuff out really fast. Strength matters. Knowledge of grappling matters. Size matters. Size isn't related to speed or flexibility. Real opponents don't leave their arms extended after they punch for 10 hit combos. Trapping doesn't exist in (most) real fighting (although I believe it does have its place, but that's another topic). I dropped my limiting beliefs quickly. But that's really hard for some people, especially if they are socially tied up in it.

"Oh, hey tai chi classmates with whom I've been training for 10 years, I decided I don't like this anymore and I'm going to go train at the MMA school down the street. Laters."

Some people can't do that. They don't want to dishonor their master or break social ties with their friends or whatever.

Combine that with the desire to want to believe. Dude, I practiced qigong every day because I so wanted to believe that it was giving me super fighting skills and I was an awesome, dedicated warrior. Fortunately I learned that it wasn't with some friendly people at an MMA club rather than in a real fight.

That being said, I didn't drop everything that was TMA. I still believe TCMA has the most efficient methods of body conditioning. They seem to understand that slow and steady wins the race. Being able to throw a punch and not break your fist on impact is important, and TCMA conditioning methods will get you there more safely than any other way I've seen. It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist.

Being able to absorb a blow and continue fighting is also important, and again I believe TCMA has the best and most efficient methods to achieve this goal. And again, it doesn't have anything to do with magic energy protecting your body, at least not that I've seen.

[wenshu]

So you got scammed by a charlatan, publicly humiliated and now want to project all the b.s. from that experience onto all practitioners of cma?
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5533/conwonderwheelinfilm.jpg

[Taixuquan99]

Chi is the most efficient way to communicate the convergence of body mechanics with responsiveness/receptivity with health with right entrainment of right approaches.

There simply isn't another efficient way to say that.

It's not magic, nor is it any unknown energy.

One who lifts and is able to push the envelope and knows well how far to push it to gain without being injured has it.

One who plays an instrument, and whose hands efficiently move at speed and whose notes are tastefully delivered with impact in relation to the music they play to has it.

Great boxers.

There is nothing about chi theory that was ever meant to exclude it from ANY activity, it is only half educated martial artists that believe so, for their own egoistic reasons. And they disregard the story of Ding the Cook in so doing.

[Taixuquan99]

So you got scammed by a charlatan, publicly humiliated and now want to project all the b.s. from that experience onto all practitioners of cma?


Yes, I know I wasn't hanging out with friends doing bjj since about 2002. I didn't grow up with a friend who was a judoka, and whose dad was. Never even heard of a boxer. I feel so much wiser now.:D

[bawang]

It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist.



it doesnt have to be one or the other. magic qi or real fighting. you can do both.


i understand you are traumatized from 10 years of brain washing , cult mentality, and petty politics, but if you abandon kung fu and go totally into mma , those frauds win, because they retain control of kung fu. if you leave, they get to dictate what is kung fu.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The internal arts are not about good mechanics persay. They are about a specific TYPE of mechanics. It pretty simple really, I don't know why so many people don't get it.

In external styles, power is generated from the legs, transmitted through the core to the arms, where it is added to the power the arms are generating.

The internal arts add an extra dimension to this though a motion of the spine caused by an expansion, or contraction of the dantien.

For example, with the spine compressed, as you punch you breath in and fill the dantien. As it inflates, the spine will lengthen because the dantien is driving everything up, and out in all directions. The power radiates into the legs, and arms, adding to the power they are already generating.

Instead of just transferring power through, the core now becomes very active in generating power. Since you now have 3 centers of power generation, (Legs, core and arms) your strike has significantly more force than without it.

Internal arts, although having the same structural requirements as external arts, also put more effort into building, and refining thier structure, so they have an advantage in that area as well. Although external players could do this also, the don't seem to.

[bawang]

royal dragon, you need to stop with the self mental masterbating and theorizing.

every time someone like ironfist brings up the real reason behind the internal problem, a deep, personal, psycholical problem, people get uncomfortable

the reason people are obsessed with internals is because of their personal failing and the white mans desire to fill an empty void that lies deep, deep inside. people are without identiy, without purpose, without culture. and internal frauds take advantage of that weakness.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It just doesn't have anything to do with moving magic energy around from your body to your fist..

One may not be able to overtly measure that, but those with internal sills can feel as sensation of extra weight, or power, or something when they hit. I don't know what that sensation is, but I know that it was manifested once I started to train the internal arts. It was never there when O just did external ones.

When I hit with that feeling, I hit significantly harder, than if I don't feel it.

I think the Chinese call that "Moving Qi to the fist", because like me, they don't know what else to call it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

royal dragon, you need to stop with the self mental masterbating and theorizing.

every time someone like ironfist brings up the real reason behind the internal problem, a deep, personal, psycholical problem, people get uncomfortable

the reason people are obsessed with internals is because of their personal failing and the white mans desire to fill an empty void that lies deep, deep inside.

In other words, I am right, stop letting the secrets out. :p

[bawang]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

No. I have real internal skills, and I can teach them.

What amazes me, is that everyone has this stuff all confused. Once you have it, and can teach it (and I do teach it), it's a no brainer. This is because it's really pretty simple.

The only ones who seem confused, are people who only do external arts, or were taught what is supposed to be a internal art, without the internals. This leads people to think there is nothing more than a labeling difference, rather than a real tangible difference in the way the art works.

[Lucas]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

[bawang]

"i have the real internal power, i can feel it, if you dont know what im talking about you dont have real internals"

the fuk out of here

[SPJ]

yes, there is only one body.

so intensive training over time makes you better or more efficient both internally and externally.

internally focusing training

1. standing in posture, (in stillness/calmness both in body and mind; but max your "relaxation" and thus gain acute sense of change or movement)

2. breathing exercises

3. relaxation or stretching all tendons and joints.

no things mystical.

you still need your weight lifting (strength training ST)and aerobic regimes or cardio (external aspect)

no things mystical either.

so facebook is external with all widgets and gadgets

and tweeter is internal everything in 140 letters (short/max and efficiency) with links (shorten links, too not to exceed 140 letters space, that is)

we need both.

in the end, we strive to have direct and fast results with least effort (max efficiency)

after many and many training sessions to improve both internally and externally.

:D

[bawang]

i really dont want to reveal the secret of internals but you guys are really lost.


lift weights, but dont do bicep curls. then you wont look big. then you will look ``ìnternal``.

[Dragonzbane76]

honetly, i could care less about either. I train, I train hard, I hit hard, I grapple hard, period.

People get to wrapped up in translations, definitions, "styles", etc. etc. etc.

If I was to give an honest answer to the external/internal debate, I would state that they are one thing, the same.

Taken from peoples answers to what internal is I would say that I've felt many of the things spoke about through grappling more than anything else. But honestly, again, I could care less, i train and i'm pretty confident in what I know.

not something that keeps me up at night for sure.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

I can. Send them my way.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To answer the original question, the West does not train internal skills. What is regarded as internal, is a highly specific type of body mechanics. One is unique to the Northern arts, and the other to the Hakka styles. They are found in no other discipline in the world.

[IronFist]

One may not be able to overtly measure that, but those with internal sills can feel as sensation of extra weight, or power, or something when they hit. I don't know what that sensation is, but I know that it was manifested once I started to train the internal arts. It was never there when O just did external ones.

When I hit with that feeling, I hit significantly harder, than if I don't feel it.

I think the Chinese call that "Moving Qi to the fist", because like me, they don't know what else to call it.

That's why I said I don't think there could ever be a double blind study to test it, because the guy doing it would always be aware of the fact that he was doing it, or supposed to be doing it, and that may influence him. Even if there is nothing actually going on, the simple belief that there is some qi in his fist might make him hit harder. It's kind of like how the right pep talk/pump up can cause a powerlifter to add a few more pounds onto a lift and successfully complete a lift with 10 more pounds than he just failed with on the previous lift 10 minutes beforehand. Nothing measurable changed.

I don't doubt that you feel stuff. I did qigong for a long time I and I also felt stuff. The energy in the dan dien, the rushing of water over the arms feeling, etc. When I would do iron forearms training I could feel the qi (or whatever) in my forearms. The subtle tingling-yet-heaviness feeling. But I don't think that had anything to do with my ability to take a hard strike without damage. I banged my inner forearm on stuff a couple times on accident and it didn't hurt, and I didn't have my qi "charged up" or anything at those points.

All I'm saying is, I don't doubt these people can hit hard. I just want to see a qi iron palm breaking demo where it's not an (often ridiculous) use of leverage and body mechanics being blamed on qi. Or some parlor trick like lifting the edge of the brick up the moment before impact. That's not qi power, that's physics and leverage.

If someone wants to do a qigong break, he should break a bunch of bricks with no spacers flat on the ground by actually projecting his qi into it rather than using muscle or strength and tons of leverage, and he certainly shouldn't begin by jumping into the air so he can come down on it with all his body weight. Lightly tap the stack of bricks and have them shatter or something, something that obviously can't be explained by physics. That would be more believable.

Show me an iron body demo where a guy gets hit in the stomach and he isn't flexing every muscle in his torso at the moment of impact. That's not qi protection, that's physical protection; the same way anyone takes a hit.

Blindfold a guy, have him move his qi to his abdomen so he's "protected" or whatever, and let someone punch him in the gut at a random moment so he can't be all waiting with his muscles flexed. Bonus points if it's not a fat qigong master, because fat people can take punches easier anyway since they have more mass between them and their organs. On a related note, there sure are a lot of fat qigong masters. (I'm not the first to notice this: link (http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16518-over-weight-qigong-masters/))

Some people want to talk about throat training. The spear bending thing is a stage trick (physics). It has nothing to do with qi. They have to put it in a specific point on their throat and push a certain way, otherwise they die (not that the spear is super sharp, anyway). Physics and slight of hand and audience misdirection, not qi. Notice everyone puts it in the same place at the bottom of the throat and pushes down. Hmm, I wonder why? They're trying to tell the audience that they can withstand strikes to the throat so the audience believes they have super human power. Nonsense. They're doing the same stage trick that performers have done for years.

It's a disservice to TMA. No wonder people make fun of qiblasts.

But there are always going to be people who believe it, or who want to believe in it. Dozens of people think their master can move them with kong jing. How many hours do you think they spend on kong jing training exercises? We all know what happens when kong jing people fight real fighters (or even people outside their own school).

Again, I stress conditioning is important. You don't want to break your hand in a strike. But your hand is becoming stronger because of Wolff's Law and a slow desensitization to pain, not because magic energy is protecting it.

I would stand up and applaud if I ever saw a kung fu school or Shaolin monk demo where they said "this guy is going to break some bricks. He has been conditioning his hand for a long time and has strong bones and the mental focus to perform the break. This type of training requires months/years of practice and is highly indicative of a skilled practitioner." But they never say that. They say junk like "you can see him moving his qi into his hand. Qi protects the hand and blah blah blah superhuman powers. These special exercises blah blah blah."

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

[IronFist]

so when will someone show viable proof to a ufc fighter or equivelant? if its simple and easy to proove, the worlds top strikers would flock to the calling of the mighty internal fist method. so why arent they? whats missing? you cant just blame 'mma knuckleheads' if you show someone like silva or gsp ' hey you can hit harder by doing this method' i garantee you they would listen up. so whats the deal? why can no one proove this to a real actual fighter...? something smells

This.

People who make their living, who get paid and feed themselves and their family through fighting, would benefit greatly from this stuff.

"Hey dude, are you sick of going 3 rounds and having it end in decision? Do this and knock out your opponent with a single punch."

They would be all over it.

Have someone knock out their opponent from the bottom of mount or guard, striking upward without assistance from leverage, body mechanics, or body weight. That would be a good show of qi power, and I'm sure it would be useful to MMA guys, too. It would change the game.

"Boxers, sick of being dropped from liver shots? This iron vest stuff will protect you and you don't even have to flex your muscles to absorb the strike!"

Actually, maybe that's not a good idea. It would make boxing matches take even longer :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That's why I said I don't think there could ever be a double blind study to test it, because the guy doing it would always be aware of the fact that he was doing it, or supposed to be doing it, and that may influence him. Even if there is nothing actually going on, the simple belief that there is some qi in his fist might make him hit harder. It's kind of like how the right pep talk/pump up can cause a powerlifter to add a few more pounds onto a lift and successfully complete a lift with 10 more pounds than he just failed with on the previous lift 10 minutes beforehand. Nothing measurable changed.

I don't doubt that you feel stuff. I did qigong for a long time I and I also felt stuff. The energy in the dan dien, the rushing of water over the arms feeling, etc. When I would do iron forearms training I could feel the qi (or whatever) in my forearms. The subtle tingling-yet-heaviness feeling. But I don't think that had anything to do with my ability to take a hard strike without damage. I banged my inner forearm on stuff a couple times on accident and it didn't hurt, and I didn't have my qi "charged up" or anything at those points.

All I'm saying is, I don't doubt these people can hit hard. I just want to see a qi iron palm breaking demo where it's not an (often ridiculous) use of leverage and body mechanics being blamed on qi. Or some parlor trick like lifting the edge of the brick up the moment before impact. That's not qi power, that's physics and leverage.

If someone wants to do a qigong break, he should break a bunch of bricks with no spacers flat on the ground by actually projecting his qi into it rather than using muscle or strength and tons of leverage, and he certainly shouldn't begin by jumping into the air so he can come down on it with all his body weight. Lightly tap the stack of bricks and have them shatter or something, something that obviously can't be explained by physics. That would be more believable.

Show me an iron body demo where a guy gets hit in the stomach and he isn't flexing every muscle in his torso at the moment of impact. That's not qi protection, that's physical protection; the same way anyone takes a hit.

Blindfold a guy, have him move his qi to his abdomen so he's "protected" or whatever, and let someone punch him in the gut at a random moment so he can't be all waiting with his muscles flexed. Bonus points if it's not a fat qigong master, because fat people can take punches easier anyway since they have more mass between them and their organs. On a related note, there sure are a lot of fat qigong masters. (I'm not the first to notice this: link (http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16518-over-weight-qigong-masters/))

Some people want to talk about throat training. The spear bending thing is a stage trick (physics). It has nothing to do with qi. They have to put it in a specific point on their throat and push a certain way, otherwise they die (not that the spear is super sharp, anyway). Physics and slight of hand and audience misdirection, not qi. Notice everyone puts it in the same place at the bottom of the throat and pushes down. Hmm, I wonder why? They're trying to tell the audience that they can withstand strikes to the throat so the audience believes they have super human power. Nonsense. They're doing the same stage trick that performers have done for years.

It's a disservice to TMA. No wonder people make fun of qiblasts.

But there are always going to be people who believe it, or who want to believe in it. Dozens of people think their master can move them with kong jing. How many hours do you think they spend on kong jing training exercises? We all know what happens when kong jing people fight real fighters (or even people outside their own school).

Again, I stress conditioning is important. You don't want to break your hand in a strike. But your hand is becoming stronger because of Wolff's Law and a slow desensitization to pain, not because magic energy is protecting it.

I would stand up and applaud if I ever saw a kung fu school or Shaolin monk demo where they said "this guy is going to break some bricks. He has been conditioning his hand for a long time and has strong bones and the mental focus to perform the break. This type of training requires months/years of practice and is highly indicative of a skilled practitioner." But they never say that. They say junk like "you can see him moving his qi into his hand. Qi protects the hand and blah blah blah superhuman powers. These special exercises blah blah blah."

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

Qi is much more subtle than what you are looking for. Take the brick brear for instance. Sure, he has done a LOT of physical conditioning to perform this feat. He should be able to do it without the extra manipulation of his Qi. However, if he also has real internal skills, and can improve his physical ability by manifesting the "Qi" feeling in his hands, he'd be a fool to not use that advantage.


Either way, his physicality alone will allow him to break a few bricks. The added "Juice" from his ability to manifest a greater Qi flow to his hands is going to either make it easier for him to do so and not be injured, OR allow him to break an extra brick.

This subtlety can really only be measured by the individual. There is no way for an outsider to measure the difference, without the potential accusation of the test being manipulated either intentionally, or subconsciously.

The ONLY way is to actually train the scientist in the skills, and have him document his progress in the methods.

[bawang]

Why is it so important that they mislead the audience like that? Why do so many (but not all) TCMA people need other people to believe they have supernatural powers? Ego? Fear? Legend? Or do they need to keep normal people afraid of their super powers so they never actually have to fight a resisting opponent?

they want to have feeling of control over themselves and others. its all about control.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

they want to have feeling of control over themselves and others. its all about control.

I always thought it was about putting on a good show because Chinese people are very artistically theatrical?

[bawang]

its only called a show when theres an actual audience.

[IronFist]

Qi is much more subtle than what you are looking for. Take the brick brear for instance. Sure, he has done a LOT of physical conditioning to perform this feat. He should be able to do it without the extra manipulation of his Qi. However, if he also has real internal skills, and can improve his physical ability by manifesting the "Qi" feeling in his hands, he'd be a fool to not use that advantage.


Either way, his physicality alone will allow him to break a few bricks. The added "Juice" from his ability to manifest a greater Qi flow to his hands is going to either make it easier for him to do so and not be injured, OR allow him to break an extra brick.

This subtlety can really only be measured by the individual. There is no way for an outsider to measure the difference, without the potential accusation of the test being manipulated either intentionally, or subconsciously.

The ONLY way is to actually train the scientist in the skills, and have him document his progress in the methods.

I get what you're saying.

There's just no way to ever prove it, then.

And as far as all the stuff being explainable by physical conditioning, mechanics, and leverage... occam's razor.

In other words, why bother with the "internal" component if you can do the same stuff without it? Your training time would be cut in half without the internal component, too, so it would be more efficient.

Unless it's just because you can :)


Surely there has to be some way to demonstrate qi breaking or protection skills, that isn't a parlor trick, that the audience can quantify and say "oh, that definitely was more than just applied body weight, physics, and physical conditioning."

[bawang]

internal would be at least considered for cultural purposes it had legitimate cultural value. it doesnt. its a complete fabrication.

[taai gihk yahn]

To me, "internal" means you're doing something different from strictly external movement.
Anyone can do external. You just move and do it.
Therefore "internal" has to have another component; that which makes it internal.
Usually this is qi.
For example, a regular palm strike vs. a palm strike with qi.
ummmm....
no;
anytime u do ANYTHING that involves movement of the body, so-called "qi" is involved; that's because "qi" is a functional qualifier that is endemic to physiological function; you can't seperate it out and say "movement 'x' has qi, movement 'y' doesn't"; without "qi", there would be no movement, because there would be no physiological function present; of course the quality of how one moves, and the degree to which one ties ones movement into the autonomic nervous system (eg - doing something in relative sympathetic versus parasympathetic "mode"), will have an impact;



Qigong guys say muscle contraction inhibits the flow of qi, so I guess they would lift it without contracting their muscles or something.
a steaming heap of cow dung propogated by the internal crowd; sorry, when you move, you contract muscles; heck, when you stand still, you contract muscles; without muscle contraction, the only movement possible is you falling flat on your face;
however, what you can have is muscle function that is relatively unimpeded, that is, contracting an agonist with full relaxation of the antagonist; when u have that, u get that effortlessness feeling that seems as if u aren't contracting anything - hence the belief that u aren't using muscles to move when doing internal; also, u have a phenomenon called ideomotor activity, which is the basis for spontaneous movement in qigong;
so u may not feel the degree of muscle tension associated w "external", but u will have muscle contraction - which, BTW, does NOT block the flow of qi - muscle spasm (either acute or low grade chronic patterns) which is indicative of pathology, sure (trigger points as well); but muscle contraction is normal - how could that possibly block qi?


Well in that case, everything is internal.
in a way, yes - the whole internal / not internal is a FABRICATION designed to set apart certain arts from others and to justify a more genteel manner of training; it is an artificial distinction; there is no external / internal movement, there is only movement, albeit movement that might be qualitatively different; so when u practice "internally", u r building awareness of ur structure and function in a different way than if u r training "externally" - one is not better than the other, they r just different ways to move, with different degrees of awareness at different levels;


To answer the original question, the West does not train internal skills. What is regarded as internal, is a highly specific type of body mechanics. One is unique to the Northern arts, and the other to the Hakka styles. They are found in no other discipline in the world.
so u have studied Alexander technique, Feldenkreis, Ariga gym, Trager mentastics, contact improve work, etc? because there r many similarities to what is construed in TCMA as "internal" in all of these systems - not quite in the same format or amalgamation, an not named in the same way, but the "how" is such that they are comparable;

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I get what you're saying.

There's just no way to ever prove it, then.

And as far as all the stuff being explainable by physical conditioning, mechanics, and leverage... occam's razor.

In other words, why bother with the "internal" component if you can do the same stuff without it? Your training time would be cut in half without the internal component, too, so it would be more efficient.

Unless it's just because you can :)


Surely there has to be some way to demonstrate qi breaking or protection skills, that isn't a parlor trick, that the audience can quantify and say "oh, that definitely was more than just applied body weight, physics, and physical conditioning."

Well, the way I see it, internal power gives you an improved edge over your physical skills. it was always considered an advanced practice, so it's really for guys at the top trying to squeaze that little bit extra out of thier game.

In Olympic sports, for instance, that little bit more can mean the difference between a Gold medal, and 4rth place. In ancient times, that little bit extra might mean the difference between beating a skilled attacker, or dying.

On the other hand, since internal power gives you a "Nitrus" boost, you can teach it earlier in the curriculum, so a student that has not fully developed the conditioning can have a little more then they could normally demonstriaght.

I start teaching the internal skills right away(even though it was not traditionally done), because I have a simple, direct to the point way of getting students to acquire the base skills. For me, it does not take any more time to develop them, than to not. This with heavy conditioning seems to be the best route. It does add some time to the class though, like an extra hour.

Also, my student is a Crossfit athlete, so I don't have to really worry about his conditioning. I just tell him what to do, and he works it into his routine.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

in a way, yes - the whole internal / not internal is a FABRICATION designed to set apart certain arts from others and to justify a more genteel manner of training; it is an artificial distinction; there is no external / internal movement, there is only movement, albeit movement that might be qualitatively different; so when u practice "internally", u r building awareness of ur structure and function in a different way than if u r training "externally" - one is not better than the other, they r just different ways to move, with different degrees of awareness at different levels;

;

Completely wrong. Internal movement is a "Specific" type of body mechanics (2 actually, one Northern, and the other southern)


Internal movement *IS* better than external, because internal movement includes the external PLUS a specific action of the dantien expansion/contraction that adds an additional stage of power generation to the over all chain. This increases the amount of power one can generate that is beyond what external methods can do, because they are lacking the extra stage.

When you look at internal power generation, and external power generation, the first thing you need to do is remove all the over laping actions. Once those are stripped away, you are left with a comparable difference.

For example, Closing Kua, tucking the tail bone, twisting the hips, extending the arms and legs occur in both (in the good ones anyway). So you have to take them off the table.

Once you have done that you will find the entirety of external motion is now off the table. What is left is core power development created by the expansion and contraction of the dantien, and by extension, the lengthening/shortening of the spine, and the opening, and closing of the chest.

These are the essence of internal power. When you add these elements to an external motion, you get internal power.

Another way to look at it, is that external power, is a *Lacking* of key Specific body mechanical motion that is driven by the dantian. Internal is the full package.

[IronFist]

ummmm....
no;
anytime u do ANYTHING that involves movement of the body, so-called "qi" is involved; that's because "qi" is a functional qualifier that is endemic to physiological function;

Ok, well by that definition everything is internal. I'm doing internal typing on my keyboard right now. I'm about to do internal mouse clicking when I click "submit reply."


a steaming heap of cow dung propogated by the internal crowd; sorry, when you move, you contract muscles; heck, when you stand still, you contract muscles; without muscle contraction, the only movement possible is you falling flat on your face;

Most internal people don't realize that. Kudos to you.

[IronFist]

Well, the way I see it, internal power gives you an improved edge over your physical skills. it was always considered an advanced practice, so it's really for guys at the top trying to squeaze that little bit extra out of thier game.

I guess.

Seems like internal power takes a while to cultivate. Aren't there more efficient ways of training, given a finite amount of training time? In other words, is the increase in performance obtained from doing x minutes of qigong activity going to be more beneficial than spending x minutes doing something else that increases power (weights, kettlebells, etc.)?




I start teaching the internal skills right away(even though it was not traditionally done), because I have a simple, direct to the point way of getting students to acquire the base skills.

Makes sense to me.



Internal movement *IS* better than external, because internal movement includes the external PLUS a specific action of the dantien expansion/contraction that adds an additional stage of power generation to the over all chain. This increases the amount of power one can generate that is beyond what external methods can do, because they are lacking the extra stage.

So would you consider powerlifting techniques, such as valsalva maneuver + tightened abs (dan tien) to be "internal" techniques? They measurably increase a lifter's maximum power output. Seems like it fits your definition:

A regular deadlift is not as strong as:

A deadlift (same external motion) + proper breathing technique + tensing the abs.

Granted, to me, it would seem weird to deadlift without proper breathing technique, but I guess you could inhale on the way up or something if you wanted.

If that is considered internal (which it may be according to your definition), is it considered qigong? Could any qigong exercises increase one's performance in deadlift as a result?


When you look at internal power generation, and external power generation, the first thing you need to do is remove all the over laping actions. Once those are stripped away, you are left with a comparable difference.

Get out of here with your science and rational thinking :p


For example, Closing Kua, tucking the tail bone, twisting the hips, extending the arms and legs occur in both (in the good ones anyway). So you have to take them off the table.

Once you have done that you will find the entirety of external motion is now off the table. What is left is core power development created by the expansion and contraction of the dantien, and by extension, the lengthening/shortening of the spine, and the opening, and closing of the chest.

These are the essence of internal power. When you add these elements to an external motion, you get internal power.

Do those techniques result in increased power through "mystic energy" or just increased power through better body structure?



Just so I understand you, it seems to me that you're classifying "internal" as proper body structure + specific breathing + subtle structural movements/corrections. Is this correct?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So would you consider powerlifting techniques, such as valsalva maneuver + tightened abs (dan tien) to be "internal" techniques? They measurably increase a lifter's maximum power output. Seems like it fits your definition:

A regular deadlift is not as strong as:

A deadlift (same external motion) + proper breathing technique + tensing the abs.

Granted, to me, it would seem weird to deadlift without proper breathing technique, but I guess you could inhale on the way up or something if you wanted.

Well, no, not really. Tensing the abs, and breathing out would be backwards to internal power generation in this motion. If you tuck the tail bone, open the lower back, then relax the abs as you breath IN, allowing the inflating air bubble to both reinforce your core (in place of tensed abs), and drive the spine up, THAT would be an internal dead lift.

I actually have a whole gambit of weight training designed to increase the strength of my internal power core (Dantien). Many appear similar to regular weight lifting, but once you examine the details they are in fact very different. some are polar opposites, despite the outer motion looking very much the same.


If that is considered internal (which it may be according to your definition), is it considered qigong? Could any qigong exercises increase one's performance in deadlift as a result?

You would have to lift internally, but yes. HOWEVER, since manifesting internal power on a lift is very different than how it's normally done, you must take time to develop the muscles of your core as they will be used very differently due to actually producing power, rather than just having a stabilizing action. This is why I teach internal skills right away; to avoid the bog down time.







Do those techniques result in increased power through "mystic energy" or just increased power through better body structure?


Well, on the surface it's not much more than adding an additional layer of power generating to the already existing chain. However, as the skill develops, one does start to feel internal connections through the channels, and the cooling, ease of Qi flow as well. This is always accompanied by superior performance.

The phenomenon is most noticeable early on, because it's hit or miss. You may experience it every 20 tries, but not the rest of the reps. As tie goes on, it happens more, and more. Eventually you may feel it from the 3rd rep all the way to the 16th rep, then loose the feeling.

Oddly, trying to make this feeling happen prevents it.

Some days, you will have it in abundance, and previously difficult workouts are very easy. Then you lose the feeling and they become difficult again untill it comes back, or you learn to relax enough to allow it to manifest.

Once you have developed the Qi so it is very strong, and you feel it all the time, it's harder to tell because you lose the compare and contrast between feeling it, and not.



Just so I understand you, it seems to me that you're classifying "internal" as proper body structure + specific breathing + subtle structural movements/corrections. Is this correct?

Yes, for the most part. Specifically the relaxing of the abs, breathing in to fill the dantien so the spine can be both drive up by it, and supported by the resulting air bubble (this pressure also braces the spine like a back brace from the inside). This expansion is in all directions,and radiates into the legs as well,adding to the extension motion which governs leg produced power.

It does go deeper than that though, because the specific mechanics manifest the Qi, and strengthen it to the point where it is boosting your abilities beyond just the additional mechanics alone (that is what I feel in myself, anyway).

The Qi development is something you cannot try to acquire. You have to focus on the internal mechanics, and over a very long time they manifest and strengthen it.

It is a very deep, and personal practice, that quite frankly, cannot be measured. The outward observer can easily just claim that it is just the greater development of the additional mechanics and thier strength through progressive development that is the real cause.

I do know this though, the specific dantien expansion/contraction action is what develops it to the point that you can feel it, and obtain benefit from it. Nothing else works. This is why many martial Qi Gong are so dantien focused.

[IronFist]

Just for the noobs reading this, attempting a deadlift with the tailbone tucked is a good way to end up in the hospital.

The spine is strongest when arched (don't confuse that with rounded!) and your butt sticking out. This is how it is designed to bear loads.

I know you know this, RD, but I don't want any lurkers thinking they're going to invent some "internal deadlift" or something and end up hurting themselves.




Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't mean the deadlift breathing + ab tightening was a qigong exercise, I was just asking if it fit your criteria of an internal component, since it involved specific breathing techniques combined with specific abdominal movement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

John said it best:
How do you do an internal round kick? or an internal hip throw?

I woudl add how does one lift 300lbs internally?

We don't, no one does.
Its just a way of expressing certain things that go on IN the body when we do physcial movement.

When powerlifter is about to squat 300lbs or deadlift 300 lbs, he uses what breathing method?
As per TCMA, he uses reverse breathing which is the natural way our bodies breathes when excessive strength and force needs to be produced
As per western views, he breathes and expands his core and "holds" that breath in to support his core muscles and ribs and so forth ( not wanting to get to technical) and exerts the strength he needs and exhales when done.
Boxers do the same when striking and take a shot.
The ordinary person, when they are going to push a car that is not working or stuck, what do they do?
Get behind it, root themselves, their breathing automatically becomes "reverse breathing", the hold and they PUSH against the ground keeping thei bodies aligned, etc,etc.

All that without ONE lesson in IMA.

How does the west train the "internal"?
By training the "external" correctly, like it has ALWAYS been done, everywhere until some "desk jockey" decided that he should put a name to ONE PART of a WHOLE.

How does an IMA run the 100 meters?
If he wants to run it as fast as possible, the same way the world record holder does.

[Ray Pina]

Internal is a study of mechanical movement and structure paired with intent

Taiji, Ba Gua and Hsing-I each employ different methods of the above to achieve their goals. These styles are unique fighting methods that happen to complement each other well, sort of like wrestling, BJJ and Judo.

Internal is a study of one's ... well, it's hard to name it. Energy system?.... it's more than that. Intention/mind frame? That's there too. .... I've never learned form. But I've been shown postures and have held them for periods that were as difficult as any intense MMA training I've done..... with no results..... at first!

With time you settle into these postures and it's a mean to self check yourself. If the posture is uncomfortable there's a reason. Usually holding stress somewhere.... when you're all right, it's comfortable. You feel your channel running, like circulating pipes. Keeping them flowing clean.... I have no more proof of this than I do when I say I have a head ache. The person with it knows.

[Ray Pina]

rib cage power, spinal compression, all the jargons, did you attend business school or something?

You are right and you are wrong when you tell someone stating they know so believe them to get the hell out of here.

In this case, there is additional power to be obtained if you know how to add the rib cage with the punches forward momentum. Send the rib and the elbow together. More mass. There's lots of things like that.

[Ray Pina]

As for fighting, pure internal. I think there's the children of Master William C.C. Chen and me. Who else has gone out to fight?

I wasn't saying this to be a d!ck. I would really like to know. So many people here from all over. If there's a pure internalist out fighting that means they're teacher had something. Only natural for the student to go out... I had nowhere near the success of the Chen's. But I've fought out. Win some lose some but I still have all my teeth. And you'd never notice my broken nose.

So... anyone in California, Seattle, New York, Canada fighting out as an internalist? Anyone in Europe or Asia? Sanctioned events? Even non sanctioned real fights?

*Admit wins didn't happen until incorporating BJJ into the mix

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

John said it best:
How do you do an internal round kick? or an internal hip throw?

I woudl add how does one lift 300lbs internally?

We don't, no one does.
Its just a way of expressing certain things that go on IN the body when we do physcial movement.

When powerlifter is about to squat 300lbs or deadlift 300 lbs, he uses what breathing method?
As per TCMA, he uses reverse breathing which is the natural way our bodies breathes when excessive strength and force needs to be produced
As per western views, he breathes and expands his core and "holds" that breath in to support his core muscles and ribs and so forth ( not wanting to get to technical) and exerts the strength he needs and exhales when done.
Boxers do the same when striking and take a shot.
The ordinary person, when they are going to push a car that is not working or stuck, what do they do?
Get behind it, root themselves, their breathing automatically becomes "reverse breathing", the hold and they PUSH against the ground keeping thei bodies aligned, etc,etc.

All that without ONE lesson in IMA.

How does the west train the "internal"?
By training the "external" correctly, like it has ALWAYS been done, everywhere until some "desk jockey" decided that he should put a name to ONE PART of a WHOLE.

How does an IMA run the 100 meters?
If he wants to run it as fast as possible, the same way the world record holder does.

Internal round kick is done by breathing into the upper back as you lift the leg, and out when you retract after the kick.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Just for the noobs reading this, attempting a deadlift with the tailbone tucked is a good way to end up in the hospital.

The spine is strongest when arched (don't confuse that with rounded!) and your butt sticking out. This is how it is designed to bear loads.

I know you know this, RD, but I don't want any lurkers thinking they're going to invent some "internal deadlift" or something and end up hurting themselves.

Actually, the dantien inflated braces the spine, similar to a back brace (so long as the muscles on the other side are developed enough for form the other side of the brace).

The injury potential has to do more with how well developed the dantien is, and how well developed the lower back is. Since most people never actually train the lower back, because they always remove it from the power chain by arching it, most people have very weak backs. THAT is why there is an injury potential.

If one were to start tucking the tail bone, and inflating the dantien from the start of his lifting career(when he is still lifting lighter weights), the lower back would develop right along with everything else, so the injury potential would be removed.

Plus, a fully inflated dantien is like a basket ball. It's hard, and can support a lot of weight, so ultimatly most of the weight is taken off the sine, and is resting on thier internal basket ball. One must tuck the tail bone to properly inflate the dantien, or the curvature of the spine chokes it off.

If done correctly, the spine is not shouldering the weight anyway. The dantien is. This makes it safer that the way normal people would do it.

Learning to use the dantien properly however, takes some time and dedication to seemingly useless, and subtle exercises without the weight so you get the motion correct. No one wants to do that.



Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't mean the deadlift breathing + ab tightening was a qigong exercise, I was just asking if it fit your criteria of an internal component, since it involved specific breathing techniques combined with specific abdominal movement.

No it does not, because it involves the *Wrong* specific breathing techniques. There is no extra dantien power added to the over all chain in what you described.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

To add to my post above, you can actually use internalized versions of weight training to improve dantien performance just like working any other part of the body.

Like anything, progressive resistance is the key. The only real difference is that with the internal you need a long period of light Qi Gong exercises, with no weight, over a long period of time to teach the correct motions because it is so alien to everything else we know.

Once you get it right, then you can progressively add resistance to develop it further.

[IronFist]

Actually, the dantien inflated braces the spine, similar to a back brace (so long as the muscles on the other side are developed enough for form the other side of the brace).

The injury potential has to do more with how well developed the dantien is, and how well developed the lower back is. Since most people never actually train the lower back, because they always remove it from the power chain by arching it, most people have very weak backs. THAT is why there is an injury potential.

If one were to start tucking the tail bone, and inflating the dantien from the start of his lifting career(when he is still lifting lighter weights), the lower back would develop right along with everything else, so the injury potential would be removed.

Plus, a fully inflated dantien is like a basket ball. It's hard, and can support a lot of weight, so ultimatly most of the weight is taken off the sine, and is resting on thier internal basket ball. One must tuck the tail bone to properly inflate the dantien, or the curvature of the spine chokes it off.

If done correctly, the spine is not shouldering the weight anyway. The dantien is. This makes it safer that the way normal people would do it.

Learning to use the dantien properly however, takes some time and dedication to seemingly useless, and subtle exercises without the weight so you get the motion correct. No one wants to do that.

The spine will always be under pressure when you deadlift no matter what you do or how you do it. No internal anything can change this. You cannot transfer the stress on the spine to anything else given the physics of a deadlift.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Internal round kick is done by breathing into the upper back as you lift the leg, and out when you retract after the kick.

ROTFLMAO !!!
Nice.
And they say you have no sense of humour !
:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The spine will always be under pressure when you deadlift no matter what you do or how you do it. No internal anything can change this. You cannot transfer the stress on the spine to anything else given the physics of a deadlift.

You say that, because you do not have dantien skill, and cannot fathom it's use.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

ROTFLMAO !!!
Nice.
And they say you have no sense of humour !
:D

Ummm, I was being serious.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ummm, I was being serious.

Stop it dude, you're killing me !!:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Stop it dude, you're killing me !!:D

But I Was being serious!

[sanjuro_ronin]

But I Was being serious!

Ok, I'll play along.
How does one breathe into the upper back as opposed into our lungs?
And how does that make the kick "internal"?

[Ray Pina]

The only time I have gained a real benefit from this in physical competition is when I land in someone's guard.... by tucking the tailbone and inflating the lower abdomen I can take any amount of leg squeezing. Can stay and tire someone out.

The bad news is that experienced guys know there's no use in just squeezing and holding onto guard. It's something I amuse newbies with.

[RWilson]

To add to my post above, you can actually use internalized versions of weight training to improve dantien performance just like working any other part of the body.

Like anything, progressive resistance is the key. The only real difference is that with the internal you need a long period of light Qi Gong exercises, with no weight, over a long period of time to teach the correct motions because it is so alien to everything else we know.

Once you get it right, then you can progressively add resistance to develop it further.


There is nothing internal about tucking your tailbone under. That is a static training position that can be used to open the lower back. An example of this is squatting, with the butt tucked and with NO extra weight, will open up the lumbar spine. When lifting heavy weights you do not tuck the tailbone.

Ask a powerlifter since they lift the most weight. Do not take advice from a Kung Fu hobbyist. Your advice would get people injured.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is nothing internal about tucking your tailbone under. That is a static training position that can be used to open the lower back. An example of this is squatting, with the butt tucked and with NO extra weight, will open up the lumbar spine. When lifting heavy weights you do not tuck the tailbone.

Ask a powerlifter since they lift the most weight. Do not take advice from a Kung Fu hobbyist. Your advice would get people injured.

Power lifters do not practice internal arts. They are not qualified to talk about them.

Tucking the tail bone may not be internal persay, as external arts do that as well, however the proper inflation of the dantien cannot occur without it, so it is essential to internal power.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Ok, I'll play along.
How does one breathe into the upper back as opposed into our lungs?
And how does that make the kick "internal"?

Well, it is breathing in the lungs. You are just pushing the breath up and back to form the turtle back posture.

It makes the kick "Internal", because it is part of the internal breathing method.

I have not actually figured out the physics in this one. I just know if I do a round kick the external way, it is weaker than if I do it the internal way.

This one is easy to test. Do 3 normal round kicks on the bag, and then 3 internal ones, and you instantly see a pronounced increase in power. Go back to the 3 external ones, and you see a corresponding drop back to the mean.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, it is breathing in the lungs. You are just pushing the breath up and back to form the turtle back posture.

It makes the kick "Internal", because it is part of the internal breathing method.

I have not actually figured out the physics in this one. I just know if I do a round kick the external way, it is weaker than if I do it the internal way.

This one is easy to test. Do 3 normal round kicks on the bag, and then 3 internal ones, and you instantly see a pronounced increase in power. Go back to the 3 external ones, and you see a corresponding drop back to the mean.

So, its the breathing that will make the round kick more powerful, not the actual mechanics of the kick?

[Dragonzbane76]

so ronin, this guy from big trouble in little china would be unstoppable?

http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/dungeon/3492/thunder.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

so ronin, this guy from big trouble in little china would be unstoppable?

http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/dungeon/3492/thunder.jpg

"Play your cards right, maybe you live to talk about it".

[Dragonzbane76]

"When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."

[sanjuro_ronin]

"When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."

*quizical look* WHO ?!?!

[Frost]

Power lifters do not practice internal arts. They are not qualified to talk about them.

Tucking the tail bone may not be internal persay, as external arts do that as well, however the proper inflation of the dantien cannot occur without it, so it is essential to internal power.

and you are? no disrespect but who did you learn under, and how many students have you trained?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually the "inflation" of the dantien, is a very natural occurance that all people do with they are going to left/push something heavy.

Lets be serious here for a moment.
IF the IMA methods of demonstrating strength are superiour, then it is VERY EASY to demonstrate it.

[wenshu]

Actually, the dantien inflated braces the spine, similar to a back brace (so long as the muscles on the other side are developed enough for form the other side of the brace).

The injury potential has to do more with how well developed the dantien is, and how well developed the lower back is. Since most people never actually train the lower back, because they always remove it from the power chain by arching it, most people have very weak backs. THAT is why there is an injury potential.

If one were to start tucking the tail bone, and inflating the dantien from the start of his lifting career(when he is still lifting lighter weights), the lower back would develop right along with everything else, so the injury potential would be removed.

Plus, a fully inflated dantien is like a basket ball. It's hard, and can support a lot of weight, so ultimatly most of the weight is taken off the sine, and is resting on thier internal basket ball. One must tuck the tail bone to properly inflate the dantien, or the curvature of the spine chokes it off.

If done correctly, the spine is not shouldering the weight anyway. The dantien is. This makes it safer that the way normal people would do it.

Learning to use the dantien properly however, takes some time and dedication to seemingly useless, and subtle exercises without the weight so you get the motion correct. No one wants to do that.




No it does not, because it involves the *Wrong* specific breathing techniques. There is no extra dantien power added to the over all chain in what you described.

Just when I start to think we are making progress in this discussion someone has to come along and say something like this. . .

[wenshu]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w262/stayontargets/67d8b9b127ec0a87ce415b7258fbf4e1.gif

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, its the breathing that will make the round kick more powerful, not the actual mechanics of the kick?

Both actually. By altering the breathing, there are subtle differences in the mechanics as well. This differences are what makes the difference.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually the "inflation" of the dantien, is a very natural occurance that all people do with they are going to left/push something heavy.

Lets be serious here for a moment.
IF the IMA methods of demonstrating strength are superiour, then it is VERY EASY to demonstrate it.

Actually, most people deflate the dantien, and tense the abs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, most people deflate the dantien, and tense the abs.

No, they don't deflate and of course they tense the abs, the body naturaly does that to stablize the core.
I just went to the back of my shop and asked one of the guys to push one of the heavy tanks we have, guess what he did?
Yep, breathed in, inflated his core and pushed.

[wenshu]

Ok, so I am going to give RDS the benefit of the doubt that he understands that the dantien doesn't actually "inflate". . .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, so I am going to give RDS the benefit of the doubt that he understands that the dantien doesn't actually "inflate". . .

One assumes he means how the dantien "expands" when we push air into that area.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, they don't deflate and of course they tense the abs, the body naturaly does that to stablize the core.
I just went to the back of my shop and asked one of the guys to push one of the heavy tanks we have, guess what he did?
Yep, breathed in, inflated his core and pushed.

Then he breathed out, as he did it. That is the difference. Internal would breath out first, and then in while under load.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then he breathed out, as he did it. That is the difference. Internal would breath out first, and then in while under load.

ROTFLMAO !!!!
You slay me !

[Dragonzbane76]

this is fun, when one leaves another steps forward. :p

[Taixuquan99]

I would say that, in modern terms, kung fu falls into two branches, internal-external, and external. Only the former seems used much for anything but wushu or other non-fighting pursuits.

That the internal-external styles are often called internal is a fluke, but it is the common nomenclature these days.

I would also say that the focus on always tucking(instead of tucking and untucking), maintaining the same waist level at all times, and the modern wushu placement of the feet in stance work, is not conducive to the body mechanics common to styles deemed internal or internal-external, or conducive to actual usage.

Strictly speaking, if tension prevents qi, then tucking at all times is allowing tension to remain in the front, since the abs are doing part of the tuck. Internal and internal-external styles do not hold tension in one area, nor do they avoid tension like a plague. If the back is tensed at the point one is moving energy(kinetic) down the front, this does not interfere, if the abdomen is tensed while moving kinetic energy up the back, again, zero interference. If it were otherwise, internal styles would abhor spinal whips, when, in fact, spinal whips are common in the internals.

If I maintain a level waist while shifting from a rear weighted stance to a bow, I am not micromanaging energy, I'm wasting it, by fighting gravity the whole way, which wants me to sink. If, in the transition, I sink at first(or more, let gravity drop me), then the easiest way out, given that I'm not designed to sink endlessly while standing, is for the potential energy of gravity to become kinetic, and, following the path of least resistance, it will go forward into my bow. However, if I maintain a tucked tailbone through all this, I am also wasting energy, because the momentum will be at my waist, not reaching my arms for technique. If I arch, and round at the end, the resultant spinal whip is literally kinetic energy transfering from my motion, up my spine, and to my limbs.

If I maintain a level waist while shifting back, I am not managing energy well either. It is the same as shifting straight back into a chair with wheels, in which case you would roll backwards. In this case, your frame is absorbing the backwards energy, which is asking for trouble, since any addition from an opponent makes unbalancing likely. Since, to move from front to back, the lead leg must drive, and since its press is naturally upward at an angle, then tucking into this, and then arching the back and seating in the rear posture, manages energy. If someone tries to add to this by pushing to your rear, and you have the timing down and know this only sets you in your stance faster if you let it, and is easily transfered back forward, this is energy managed.

Level waist simply can't do this.

I'm not sure what other styles do this sort of thing as routinely as the internal and internal-externals do, and so I consider such styles distinctive. Since internal is the easiest way to make the distinction, I use the term.

[bawang]

kung fu is NOT a science. it is an ART of MANLINESS

[Taixuquan99]

kung fu is NOT a science. it is an ART of MANLINESS

Doesn't your native style sing while doing forms?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

kung fu is NOT a science. it is an ART of MANLINESS

http://artofmanliness.com/

[bawang]

Doesn't your native style sing while doing forms?

they are manly songs of battle

[Eric Olson]

Internal= a study of efficient movement. It is mindful movement. It means paying attention to your whole body while practicing. It is trying to get the most done with the least effort. There's really no need to invoke qi and/or anything mystical.

When I was practicing CLF (an external art) I was concurrently studying Chen (an internal art.) Chen Taiji changed the way I move. I no longer could tense up my muscles when doing CLF to the point that my CLF form started to look "lazy." But I actually became more graceful and relaxed in my movement, more efficient.

The real secret to internal is in the standing postures. If you can maintain the standing level of connection to the ground through all of your movements, even the transitional ones, then you are doing internal. In order to maintain the connection you have to rid you body of excess tension.

The so-called "internal" arts are practiced slowly at first so that this connection can be maintained. Once this is mastered, the practice becomes faster-paced. My Taiji teacher and SiHings used to toss each other around the room in free form push hands.

EO

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Internal= a study of efficient movement. It is mindful movement. It means paying attention to your whole body while practicing. It is trying to get the most done with the least effort. There's really no need to invoke qi and/or anything mystical.

When I was practicing CLF (an external art) I was concurrently studying Chen (an internal art.) Chen Taiji changed the way I move. I no longer could tense up my muscles when doing CLF to the point that my CLF form started to look "lazy." But I actually became more graceful and relaxed in my movement, more efficient.

The real secret to internal is in the standing postures. If you can maintain the standing level of connection to the ground through all of your movements, even the transitional ones, then you are doing internal. In order to maintain the connection you have to rid you body of excess tension.

The so-called "internal" arts are practiced slowly at first so that this connection can be maintained. Once this is mastered, the practice becomes faster-paced. My Taiji teacher and SiHings used to toss each other around the room in free form push hands.

EO

I have to say that is part of it. However, many high level external players develop this over time as well. So you really can't use it as the definitive difference between the two.

The one possible distinction is maybe the internal arts set out, and specifically train these skills, where as the external arts don't. The practitioner must blunder into them as a result of years of hard training and slow, steady natural progression of development.


After really examining this, the ONLY thing seen in the internal arts, that are not in the external ones, are the dantien powered motion.

Also, lack of tension is the hall mark of the soft internal arts. There ARE Hard internal arts, that have a great deal of tension in them. South Mantis is an example of that.

[Eric Olson]

I have to say that is part of it. However, many high level external players develop this over time as well. So you really can't use it as the definitive difference between the two. After really examining this, the ONLY thing seen in the internal arts, that are not in the external ones, are the dantien powered motion.

I'm not differentiating between the arts labeled "internal" and "external" arts, only between what defines internal vs. external training. You can bring the same principles to your art whether it's boxing or BJJ or whatever.



Also, lack of tension is the hall mark of the soft internal arts. There ARE Hard internal arts, that have a great deal of tension in them. South Mantis is an example of that.

From the Southern Mantis I've seen and players I've practiced with it's not hard at all.The hands are quite soft actually. Also, I question the "shrimp-back" posture as being efficient. Often Mantis players carry a lot of tension in their shoulders.

Perhaps you're thinking of something like Hung Gar's Tit Sin Kuen. I don't think that really is the same thing. That's more of an isometric/breathing/visualization exercise. The goal is different--ie to develop iron shirt to protect oneself from blows.

EO

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I'm not differentiating between the arts labeled "internal" and "external" arts, only between what defines internal vs. external training. You can bring the same principles to your art whether it's boxing or BJJ or whatever.



From the Southern Mantis I've seen and players I've practiced with it's not hard at all.The hands are quite soft actually. Also, I question the "shrimp-back" posture as being efficient. Often Mantis players carry a lot of tension in their shoulders.

Perhaps you're thinking of something like Hung Gar's Tit Sin Kuen. I don't think that really is the same thing. That's more of an isometric/breathing/visualization exercise. The goal is different--ie to develop iron shirt to protect oneself from blows.

EO

Well, yes and no. South Mantis is "Hard" compared to something like Zhao Bao Tai Chi. But it is soft, compared to Karate. It's use of dynamic tension in it's training sets is what makes it a "Hard" Internal art. That harness is also felt if one is on the receiving end of it's applications.

[Taixuquan99]

Also, lack of tension is the hall mark of the soft internal arts. There ARE Hard internal arts, that have a great deal of tension in them. South Mantis is an example of that.



Hey RD(KC here, if you weren't aware of the name change),

I think the focus on the best internals I've seen is a tension-relaxation one, not solely relaxation. Tension pushing toward an emptiness fills that emptiness, which then, being full, can lead to another emptiness.

The internals are Taoist influenced, the very concept is Taoist. Taoism abhors the idea of "never do this" and "always do this", so the idea that tension is always bad seems at odds with the Taoist concepts the internals are dependant upon, just as relaxation always being good is at odds with it. The best Chen style guys I know play with tension, not in an iron wire kind of way, but in the sense of using tension and relaxation for their natural ends. They do not keep a level waist, because the idea that height changes gives away everything ceases to function when height changes are used for many and varied purposes. They do not obsess over a low stance always maintained, but sink under their opponent where that is simplest, rise where that is advantageous, etc.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Hey RD(KC here, if you weren't aware of the name change),

I think the focus on the best internals I've seen is a tension-relaxation one, not solely relaxation. Tension pushing toward an emptiness fills that emptiness, which then, being full, can lead to another emptiness.

The internals are Taoist influenced, the very concept is Taoist. Taoism abhors the idea of "never do this" and "always do this", so the idea that tension is always bad seems at odds with the Taoist concepts the internals are dependant upon, just as relaxation always being good is at odds with it. The best Chen style guys I know play with tension, not in an iron wire kind of way, but in the sense of using tension and relaxation for their natural ends. They do not keep a level waist, because the idea that height changes gives away everything ceases to function when height changes are used for many and varied purposes. They do not obsess over a low stance always maintained, but sink under their opponent where that is simplest, rise where that is advantageous, etc.

I think I can agree with that. Although, good, experienced external players do that as well.

[Taixuquan99]

I think I can agree with that. Although, good, experienced external players do that as well.

I think the question of how this is relates to one specific thing that is very kung fu specific, afaik.

Wushu style footwork does not allow it to happen at all, and a lot of styles, internal and externals, have a lot of practitioners and teachers that use that style footwork. The ones who DON'T use it seem to be the ones that I've found most challenging and rewarding to practice with.

The difference is not entirely about the placement of the feet, but what it should imply about kua usage, waist usage, and hip height management. Without these things being understood, kung fu footwork is plodding, because tension is not managed at all, imo.

This style of footwork is entirely in keeping with ideas of yin and yang, tension on one end means action towards emptiness, emptiness means void to be filled, filling one void creates another, movement is driven by the nature of the footwork, not by the player acting irrespective of the reality at hand.

If, at then end, it feels hard, that is merely how it feels. Chen style fajin should feel hard, at least strikes. They are produced by entirely Taoist principles, and "internal" is really shorthand for "Taoist", not meant to mean "always yeild" or "never use strength".

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the question of how this is relates to one specific thing that is very kung fu specific, afaik.

Wushu style footwork does not allow it to happen at all, and a lot of styles, internal and externals, have a lot of practitioners and teachers that use that style footwork. The ones who DON'T use it seem to be the ones that I've found most challenging and rewarding to practice with.

The difference is not entirely about the placement of the feet, but what it should imply about kua usage, waist usage, and hip height management. Without these things being understood, kung fu footwork is plodding, because tension is not managed at all, imo.

This style of footwork is entirely in keeping with ideas of yin and yang, tension on one end means action towards emptiness, emptiness means void to be filled, filling one void creates another, movement is driven by the nature of the footwork, not by the player acting irrespective of the reality at hand.

If, at then end, it feels hard, that is merely how it feels. Chen style fajin should feel hard, at least strikes. They are produced by entirely Taoist principles, and "internal" is really shorthand for "Taoist", not meant to mean "always yeild" or "never use strength".

Hmm, another good point. You are right, there is a marked difference in the footwork between internal, and external styles. Internal styles don't tend to be up on the ball of the foot, or bounce much.

However, it's always been my feeling that one is easy to take down with that, and since Kung Fu has to deal with preventing takedowns, the rooted even on the 9 points style of stepping would be found in all branches, not just the internal ones.

I think boxer's style footwork is a new thing, and has been grafted into Kung Fu due to competitions that rely mostly on striking. Take down attempts are not a threat, so the added mobility of a boxers foot work makes sense.

If you look at Sanda/Shiua Jiao comps, thier foot work reflects a lot of rooting seen in the internal styles as well. You don't see the boxer's foot work in them much. When you do, it's usually the loser who was using it.

Since most internal styles (especially the Northern ones) are very takedown heavy, it stands to reason the footwork they use has more to do with takedown defense, than being internal, or not.

[Pork Chop]

I believed I was an awesome fighter, like totally unfounded confidence, purely because of how I trained. My ancient strength sets are superior to weight lifting, big muscles make you slow, blah blah, all the normal nonsense that still gets passed down today by clueless instructors. I'm awesome and elite (special training techniques, dit da jow, qigong, inner devlopment, etc.) and these other guys all fight like uncivilized savages. I got schooled by a noob grappler in like 30 seconds. I was like wtf, years of training for me, and this dude with 3 months experience just wiped the floor with me.


I've been trying to think out a response to this for the last couple days.
For me, it was a number of different moments.

First moment was when I was still in my first school, I'd sparred one of the seniors early on and did well. Apparently that event was enough to get him to start training for real. I was learning form after form, working hard every class. Meanwhile, he was hiding out at the fitness gym, working the bag like crazy. Then, the night before I was supposed to fight a kid from school who'd tried to jump me in the parking lot, my senior put a severe beating on me. I think another senior beat me up pretty nicely as well that night. The kid from school ended up running instead of fighting 1 on 1 (3 on 1 was more his style). I was probably lucky that day, coz I think I had a broken foot and I don't think I would've been good in that fight.

Fast forward to college. Worked as a lifeguard. One of my coworkers was real obnoxious. Slept with any thing that moved. Tall lanky dude. He started slap boxing me one day out of the blue, for no reason. He'd never done a martial art in his life; but I couldn't do anything to him. Couldn't touch him. Had no idea what to do. It freaked me out.

Couple years later, started at a different kung fu school in austin. I'd been there a while when one weekend, "friendly" sparring had gone out of the ring. I'd dropped my hands and was about to turn around to reset. Guy I was sparring had come behind me, grabbed my gloves, turned, and spiked me on the floor. I was bleeding from the mouth and couldn't get up for a while, hadn't been able to do anything to break my fall. Instructor said nothing. If anything, I think he wanted the other guy to do it. Only response I got from him was "well that guy was an actual athlete". [Side note: often thought about going back to that school since I moved back to texas; maybe do some "dojo storming". Still a lot of anger there though, and I try to stay away from situations where I'll lose my control.]

Two or three years after that. Another kung fu school, this time in DC. Fighting and forms were unrelated. Fighting was watered down kickboxing to win tournament style "medium contact continuous". Was splitting my time between fighting, lion, and forms; with most of the emphasis on forms. I HATE that format of sparring - either go full or go light. My tournament showings in continuous sparring were pathetic and always frustrating.

Sanshou was much more fun. I trained sanshou at a club that was closer to my house, while still driving an hour to go to the kung fu school in DC. Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school. The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on. One of my sihings tore me up pretty good with sidekicks and then accused me of losing my temper when I stalked him, got on the inside and started landing hard shots to his body. One of the newer students kept bum-rushing me, almost tackle style. He made the mistake of doing it when i was mid round kick, made me lose control of the kick. Gave him a black eye and dropped him. Got yelled at pretty good that time.

Even though I got knocked out in my first sanda match; I really didn't have any confidence that was grounded in reality about my fighting skills until I started training the sport stuff full time. Had no concept of what I could do and what I couldn't do.

I do miss the forms sometimes. I miss the lion sometimes. I even miss my classmates sometimes. I may go back some day. But the biggest thing I'm thankful for is not always having that question nagging at the back of my mind about whether or not I can actually use the stuff.

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.

Fighting-wise, I don't see myself making any fundamental changes to what I'm doing any time soon.

[Robinhood]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

This is pretty much what I have been saying, only without all the excessive text book lectures. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality...

I mean, what outside shell? last I checked, the entire body is interconnected; it's impossible to move from the "outside" shell - it all moves together; of course, you can have relative inhibition of core musculature due to dysfunction, but this is different - for example, gluteals can be inhibited so hamstrings take over; multifidi can be inhibited, so erector spinae and psoas take over - but this is dysfunctional, it has nothing to do with internal v external; and certainly, you can have different qualities of movement that may be different one to the other; but otherwise, please remember that a lot of this internal stuff was derived based on a limited understanding of human physiology; people who are TCMA zombies go on and on about how vastly superior the ancient Chinese knowledge of human physiology was compared to modern day, when in fact it's exactly the opposite; our knowledge base is immeasurably larger now; and yet, some people create artificial statements like the one above, basically trying to make the body's function fit the internal / external paradigm;

[Dragonzbane76]

External can be thought of as driven by the outside shell, where as internal is driven by the core inside the shell.

like chopping a car in two. what good does having one side without the other do? You can have all the "shells" in the world when comparing but in real time they are the same and cannot be seperated. they are parts of a whole. take the engine out of a car and it goes no where. put the body of the car by itself and it goes no where. one and the same this external/internal dogma gets old.

[Robinhood]

"except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality..."


Your understanding only covers the external shell.

Science seems to only have a small understanding of basic body mechanics, when it comes to the mind entering into the picture science has a long way to go.

Science still has not found the medium for gravity, or for the mind or for entanglement for that matter. Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe some day science will have some answers for this stuff, plenty of room left for understanding the universe.

[IronFist]

Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school.

Your teacher didn't want you training in another style? Or he was threatened by your new skills?


The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on.

Why? Because they were mad at you for training sanshou?


I do miss the forms sometimes.

Yeah I know what you mean.


Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained.

Totally agreed.

[Taixuquan99]

except that if you understand how the body actually works in terms of muscle physiology / kinesiology, etc., this is just a statement with no basis in reality...

I mean, what outside shell? last I checked, the entire body is interconnected; it's impossible to move from the "outside" shell - it all moves together; of course, you can have relative inhibition of core musculature due to dysfunction, but this is different - for example, gluteals can be inhibited so hamstrings take over; multifidi can be inhibited, so erector spinae and psoas take over - but this is dysfunctional, it has nothing to do with internal v external; and certainly, you can have different qualities of movement that may be different one to the other; but otherwise, please remember that a lot of this internal stuff was derived based on a limited understanding of human physiology; people who are TCMA zombies go on and on about how vastly superior the ancient Chinese knowledge of human physiology was compared to modern day, when in fact it's exactly the opposite; our knowledge base is immeasurably larger now; and yet, some people create artificial statements like the one above, basically trying to make the body's function fit the internal / external paradigm;


I think that the difficulty is related to seeing internal as a descriptive term, which it clearly is not used as, versus merely a reference to so-called Taoist martial arts, which holds up quite well, imo.

[Taixuquan99]

I've been trying to think out a response to this for the last couple days.
For me, it was a number of different moments.

First moment was when I was still in my first school, I'd sparred one of the seniors early on and did well. Apparently that event was enough to get him to start training for real. I was learning form after form, working hard every class. Meanwhile, he was hiding out at the fitness gym, working the bag like crazy. Then, the night before I was supposed to fight a kid from school who'd tried to jump me in the parking lot, my senior put a severe beating on me. I think another senior beat me up pretty nicely as well that night. The kid from school ended up running instead of fighting 1 on 1 (3 on 1 was more his style). I was probably lucky that day, coz I think I had a broken foot and I don't think I would've been good in that fight.

Fast forward to college. Worked as a lifeguard. One of my coworkers was real obnoxious. Slept with any thing that moved. Tall lanky dude. He started slap boxing me one day out of the blue, for no reason. He'd never done a martial art in his life; but I couldn't do anything to him. Couldn't touch him. Had no idea what to do. It freaked me out.

Couple years later, started at a different kung fu school in austin. I'd been there a while when one weekend, "friendly" sparring had gone out of the ring. I'd dropped my hands and was about to turn around to reset. Guy I was sparring had come behind me, grabbed my gloves, turned, and spiked me on the floor. I was bleeding from the mouth and couldn't get up for a while, hadn't been able to do anything to break my fall. Instructor said nothing. If anything, I think he wanted the other guy to do it. Only response I got from him was "well that guy was an actual athlete". [Side note: often thought about going back to that school since I moved back to texas; maybe do some "dojo storming". Still a lot of anger there though, and I try to stay away from situations where I'll lose my control.]

Two or three years after that. Another kung fu school, this time in DC. Fighting and forms were unrelated. Fighting was watered down kickboxing to win tournament style "medium contact continuous". Was splitting my time between fighting, lion, and forms; with most of the emphasis on forms. I HATE that format of sparring - either go full or go light. My tournament showings in continuous sparring were pathetic and always frustrating.

Sanshou was much more fun. I trained sanshou at a club that was closer to my house, while still driving an hour to go to the kung fu school in DC. Until; that is, I started getting in trouble for training the sanshou stuff, which led to me quitting the kung fu school. The last time I went, they had me spar everyone in the class, outside, on the street, with shoes on. One of my sihings tore me up pretty good with sidekicks and then accused me of losing my temper when I stalked him, got on the inside and started landing hard shots to his body. One of the newer students kept bum-rushing me, almost tackle style. He made the mistake of doing it when i was mid round kick, made me lose control of the kick. Gave him a black eye and dropped him. Got yelled at pretty good that time.

Even though I got knocked out in my first sanda match; I really didn't have any confidence that was grounded in reality about my fighting skills until I started training the sport stuff full time. Had no concept of what I could do and what I couldn't do.

I do miss the forms sometimes. I miss the lion sometimes. I even miss my classmates sometimes. I may go back some day. But the biggest thing I'm thankful for is not always having that question nagging at the back of my mind about whether or not I can actually use the stuff.

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.

Fighting-wise, I don't see myself making any fundamental changes to what I'm doing any time soon.

You have an effed up training history.:(

[Taixuquan99]

Fighting in traditional styles was always so chaotic. No idea whatsoever about what I should do. Yeah we trained punches and kicks on bags & pads; but knowing when to use what was never really explained. One of the biggest differences was finally having a proven & tested game plan. I think that's due to a mixture of not having enough experience at any one school to really know the principles behind each style's gameplan, poor teaching style, and my own inabilities at the time. I love being able to pick apart an attack or counter and know whether or not it'll work; or at least know what I'll have to keep an eye out for.


This is something I agree with. In boxing, the counters to moves are well defined. In much of kung fu, teachers aren't even accepting of the fact that their styles are specific techniques as well as specific principles, so it's all disorganized. I disagree that the answer is railing against kung fu(not saying you think this), I want to see as many styles make it into the modern paradigm as possible, so destroying their reps does not lead to this end, it leads to the loss of possible info. I think enough people on here alone have shown that it is possible to organize that knowledge, so I suspect that the future of instructors is less authors of books on forms without any appreciable display of technical knowledge, and more technical manuals on how to use their styles.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Your understanding only covers the external shell.

Science seems to only have a small understanding of basic body mechanics, when it comes to the mind entering into the picture science has a long way to go.

Science still has not found the medium for gravity, or for the mind or for entanglement for that matter. Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it doesn't exist.

Maybe some day science will have some answers for this stuff, plenty of room left for understanding the universe.

I just spent the better part of this thread explaining how it works, in detail.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is something I agree with. In boxing, the counters to moves are well defined. In much of kung fu, teachers aren't even accepting of the fact that their styles are specific techniques as well as specific principles, so it's all disorganized. I disagree that the answer is railing against kung fu(not saying you think this), I want to see as many styles make it into the modern paradigm as possible, so destroying their reps does not lead to this end, it leads to the loss of possible info. I think enough people on here alone have shown that it is possible to organize that knowledge, so I suspect that the future of instructors is less authors of books on forms without any appreciable display of technical knowledge, and more technical manuals on how to use their styles.

I think Kung Fu suffers from poor teaching methodology, more then poor systems.

On the other hand, if you look at the individual schools, there are some great masters who understand how to engage, the lines of entry and application of technique as it applies to thier styles.

There are some over all styles well renowned for making fighters, like South mantis, and Shuai Jiao. This has to do with the over all system of teaching they employ, as well as the art itself.

The styles who tend to have limited fighters are suffering from a culture of poor teaching habits. Someone with a competitive full contact coaching background can take those styles, and make them profound fighting system with no additions to the style itself.

[Pork Chop]

Your teacher didn't want you training in another style? Or he was threatened by your new skills?


I think he thought it was a distraction.
The breaking point came when I left a round timer with one of my seniors.
Another senior ran and told sifu, who threw it out the front door.
The next time I came into class, he blew up at me.



Why? Because they were mad at you for training sanshou?


Well, I'm not sure why.
At the time, it didn't feel like special treatment because I was there, but we'd never sparred outside like that before. So the thought's lingered in the back of my head that there was maybe a reason for it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think he thought it was a distraction.
The breaking point came when I left a round timer with one of my seniors.
Another senior ran and told sifu, who threw it out the front door.
The next time I came into class, he blew up at me.



Well, I'm not sure why.
At the time, it didn't feel like special treatment because I was there, but we'd never sparred outside like that before. So the thought's lingered in the back of my head that there was maybe a reason for it.

Sounds like he was a nut ball.

[bawang]

I miss the lion sometimes.


that explains your problem. i avoid anything with lion dance like std.
Sounds like he was a nut ball.

no, sounds like he was a kung fu instructor.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

that explains your problem. i avoid anything with lion dance like std.

no, sounds like he was a kung fu instructor.

If he was a Kung Fu instructor, he would have already had his own round timer.

What he really was, was an insecure forms fairy.

[bawang]

What he really was, was an insecure forms fairy.
in other words a kung fu instructor.


its good you guys let out the pent up anger and frustration and share in the problems, but the only way to solve your problems is to became a kung fu instructor yourself and teach your view to others. otherwise those same scammers will keep on teaching.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

in other words a kung fu instructor.

You and I have different ideas of what a Kung Fu instructor is. Mine, likes to beat people up. The lessons are all fight oriented.

When I teach, I try to be the same way. I won't even teach the form till my student can use all the applications.

I may not have a round timer, but my student has one. We will use his.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

its good you guys let out the pent up anger and frustration and share in the problems, but the only way to solve your problems is to became a kung fu instructor yourself and teach your view to others. otherwise those same scammers will keep on teaching.

I do just this.

[bawang]

no. david ross does this. you just brag on internet.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

David Ross is an arrogant tool.

[bawang]

david ross is both physcially and mentally strong. if you dared face his marital prowess, he would make your voice one octave higher. he would destroy you until you cry like a japanese woman.

you are a choir boy compared to mighty david ross. A CHOIR BOY

[IronFist]

I think he thought it was a distraction.
The breaking point came when I left a round timer with one of my seniors.
Another senior ran and told sifu, who threw it out the front door.
The next time I came into class, he blew up at me.

Destruction of personal property? Anger issues?

Your sifu sounds like an *******. Good riddance.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

david ross is both physcially and mentally strong. if you dared face his marital prowess, he would make your voice one octave higher. he would destroy you until you cry like a japanese woman.

you are a choir boy compared to mighty david ross. A CHOIR BOY

Bleh....












................

[Robinhood]

I just spent the better part of this thread explaining how it works, in detail.

OK, yes I see that, nice job!

But what about the mind body connection?, none of these guys will be able to replicate the internal without that, only an external structure without proper energy flow.

Internal art also contains the energy being able to flow both ways, energy flows in and out, external arts energy only flows out.

Without building up the reservoir of energy, then opening the pipes to flow it, nothing will happen.

[Pork Chop]

You have an effed up training history.

Yeah... I guess I haven't had the best experiences.
A lot of it was probably my fault.
I haven't lasted more than a few years at any single kung fu school.
My first school is the only one I didn't leave voluntarily (had to move for college).
My teacher there was like my dad, he established my concept of martial arts, he's a large part of who I am, and I miss the guy.
I trained there 6 days a week, but it was at a time when my teacher was slowing down - switching from a hard knocks kind of school to more of a taiji for health.
The classmates that I'd sparred were from the older generation of guys who fought.
I was a bit of a forms monkey.

The other schools were me trying to find that again, and trying to learn a system through to "completion".
I can talk boxing or muay thai with just about anybody; but I never learned a whole tcma system, so that's one thing in my life that I feel is left unfinished.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

OK, yes I see that, nice job!

But what about the mind body connection?, none of these guys will be able to replicate the internal without that, only an external structure without proper energy flow.

Internal art also contains the energy being able to flow both ways, energy flows in and out, external arts energy only flows out.

Without building up the reservoir of energy, then opening the pipes to flow it, nothing will happen.

That is a whole other angle. However, to be fair, the mind and intent are very prevalent in external styles as well, so i left them off the table in my explanation. So is borrowing other's force or energy.

[ShaolinDan]

Well, that was really touching. I'm happy everyone got a chance to share.

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection? (or whatever the F* you want to call it) 147 responses and only about 5 are relevant. Nice. :D

P.S. I really don't care how you define internal...go do it somewhere else. I know there are plenty of old threads you could necro for that...you might even discover that everything you wanted to say has already been said...twice.
P.P.S. Thanks to those few of you who tried to get beyond definitions and address the question. I thought it could be an interesting topic, I never intended to start another 'is internal real' thread. That's not interesting...anymore. Maybe it used to be...

[wenshu]

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection?

Neuro-linguistic_programming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming)

Now back to our regularly scheduled quasi-mystical eastern bromides and the befuddled conflations of half studied disciplines misinterpreted by dilettantes.

[wenshu]

http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-868/P-8680094.htm


THE ANTI-G STRAINING MANEUVER
There are two components to the recommended Anti-G Straining Maneuver (AGSM):
1. A continuous and maximum contraction (if necessary) of all skeletal muscles including the arms, legs, chest, and abdominal muscles (and any other muscles if possible). Tensing of the skeletal muscles reduces blood in the G dependent areas of the body and assists in retaining or returning the blood to the thoracic (chest) area, the heart and brain.

2. The respiratory component of the AGSM is repeated at 2.5 - 3.0 second intervals. Thepurpose of the respiratory component is to counter the downward G force by increasing chest pressure by expanding the lungs. This increased pressure forces blood to flow from the heart to the brain. The respiratory tract is an open breathing system which starts at the nose and mouth and ends deep in the lungs. The respiratory tract can be completely closed off at several different points. The most effective point is to close the system off at the glottis. Closing the glottis (which is located behind the "Adam's Apple") yields the highest increase of chest pressure. You can find it and close it off by saying the word "Hick." This should be said following a deep inspiration and forcefully closing the glottis as you say "Hick." Bear down for2.5 to 3.0 seconds, and then rapidly exhale by finishing the word "Hick." This is immediately followed by the next deep inhalation repeating the cycle. The exhalation and inhalation phase should last no more than 0.5 to 1.0 second.

NOTES
1. Do not hold your respiratory straining too long (more than fiveseconds) since this will prevent the proper returning of blood to theheart and may result in loss of consciousness.
2. Anticipate a rapid-onset, high G exposure whenever possible. The skeletal muscles should be tensed prior to the onset of Gs andcoupled with the "Hick" cycle as the increasing of G' begins. Initiating the AGSM too early can inhibit the body's naturalcardiovascular reflex responses. Starting the AGSM too late is adifficult situation to make up without reducing the G- stress.

[wenshu]

Pilates has many obvious parallels but I am not sure if it had eastern influences or not. Also related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_culture

[wenshu]

for ****s and giggles (isn't it all?). . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force

[wenshu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy

[Pork Chop]

Well, that was really touching. I'm happy everyone got a chance to share.

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection? (or whatever the F* you want to call it) 147 responses and only about 5 are relevant. Nice. :D

P.S. I really don't care how you define internal...go do it somewhere else. I know there are plenty of old threads you could necro for that...you might even discover that everything you wanted to say has already been said...twice.
P.P.S. Thanks to those few of you who tried to get beyond definitions and address the question. I thought it could be an interesting topic, I never intended to start another 'is internal real' thread. That's not interesting...anymore. Maybe it used to be...

My bad, sorry for the hijack.
Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

[ShaolinDan]

Pork chop, no worries, it's not like it was just you, everyone does it, I was just bit*hin'...I'm sure I've done it too.

Wenshu thanks, interesting posts...I especially like the Odic power one. :)

Thanks both of you for helping to get back on track.

I didn't really have many ideas about the answer to my question to begin with...I knew 'visualization,' but most of the other 'internal' training methods I've heard about athletes using in the West are crossovers from the East--yoga, meditation (though I guess it really has roots everywhere), tai chi, etc. Except for maybe ballet for football players.

Answers involving lifting are surprises for me, but I can totally see it. Outside of 'Eastern' practices, the thing that taught me the most about 'internal/chi' was long distance running.

I like the answers about just learning by doing the external properly...though I guess there are ways of doing that that it might be interesting to get into.

well, thanks, again, sorry to get crabby. :) Got to go to bed now, tomorrow's Sunday and lot's of people are going to want me to cook them breakfast. :(

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My bad, sorry for the hijack.
Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

[Pork Chop]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

Well there's nothing in western sports science that's going to say that it's okay to curve your lower back while under load.

On a side note: for strictly breathing stuff, pilots use some crazy breathing to withstand high g-forces.

[Dragonzbane76]

Yoga, plyometrics, olympic lifts, power lifts, and maybe pilates I think are the best you're probably going to get outside of just perfecting your technique.

I would add wrestling but it's not really a "western" conscript.


None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.


Why would you say so? because you think it's that or is it taking away from your mythical mystic vodoo to think a western based program could similate eastern.?

[IronFist]

On a side note: for strictly breathing stuff, pilots use some crazy breathing to withstand high g-forces.

That's to physically change blood pressure and delay the passing out point.

It's not really a mind-body connection, nor is it mystic. It just kinda does the same thing as wearing the G-suit.

[IronFist]

Well, that was really touching. I'm happy everyone got a chance to share.

So, any other ideas about how Western athletes fine tune their mind/body connection? (or whatever the F* you want to call it) 147 responses and only about 5 are relevant. Nice. :D

Closing your eyes and visualizing the movement.

That's about as mind/body as I can think of.

It's been shown that thinking about doing something fires the same neurons as actually doing it, so by thinking about something, you're actually becoming more efficient at it... at least, neurologically.

[Indrafist]

Closing your eyes and visualizing the movement.

That's about as mind/body as I can think of.

It's been shown that thinking about doing something fires the same neurons as actually doing it, so by thinking about something, you're actually becoming more efficient at it... at least, neurologically.

You don't even have to 'think' about it consciously. Ideo-motor phenomenon are unconscious - hence the Ouja-Board, Table-Tilting and other dissociative (from conscious repsonsibility) effects in the so called occult.

The mind-body issue is addressed in the West through such models as 'Dialectical Identity Theory', and through known pathways including psychoneuroendocrinology and psychoneuroimmunology.

The exchange of energy and information between 'mind and body' (ignoring the dualism) is modelled as different levels of analysis, description and explanation - in part an artefact of language - and conceptualised as a nested hierarchy of systems, running from simplest to highest, with the highest containing all lower levels. This is based on Genral Systems Theory. A change at one level may affect changes above and below - hence the so-called 'mind-body' transduction (via 'information substances' such as molecules). In this view mind and brain (for example) are the same thing, just conceived of in different technical languages. This has some value and indeed leverage in discussions about what qi is or is not, and where so called internal begins, and external ends.

The interactions are complex and many people are uncomfortable with the idea of an autonomous 'unconscious' aspect to their 'mind' - imagining that they are only what they know about themselves or 'construct' themselves to be within their reflexive conscious self (personal identity).

The reality of an extensive and autonomous unconscious aspect to the mind, which eventually disappears into the substance of the body itself, is easy to demontsrate experientially. Any mediaclly experienced hypnotist could do it, and indeed it happens everyday in medical settings where the manipulation of naturally ocurring trance states is utilised to regulate 'transductions' between 'mind and body'.

Repeated year in, year out, day-by-day work in that field gives a very different perspective - and it's a valuable one.

[wenshu]

It's not really a mind-body connection, nor is it mystic. It just kinda does the same thing as wearing the G-suit.

Why must you keep insisting that any parallel necessarily has to fall under your narrow definition of mystic?

How is controlling your diaphragm and closing off the airway at the glottis through the use of vocalization not internal?

[wenshu]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.

Pilates has so many parallels it is nearly impossible not to speculate that it's founder was directly influenced by yoga or daoyin/qigong.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilates
Breathing is important in the Pilates method. In Return to Life, Pilates devotes a section of his introduction specifically to breathing "Bodily house-cleaning with blood circulation" [13] He saw considerable value in increasing the intake of oxygen and the circulation of this oxygenated blood to every part of the body. This he saw as cleansing and invigorating. Proper full inhalation and complete exhalation were key to this. "Pilates saw forced exhalation as the key to full inhalation." [14] He advised people to squeeze out the lungs as you would wring a wet towel dry.[15] In Pilates exercises, you breathe out with the effort and in on the return.[16] In order to keep the lower abdominals close to the spine; the breathing needs to be directed laterally, into the lower ribcage. Pilates breathing is described as a posterior lateral breathing, meaning that the practitioner is instructed to breathe deep into the back and sides of his or her rib cage. When practitioners exhale, they are instructed to note the engagement of their deep abdominal and pelvic floor muscles and maintain this engagement as they inhale. Pilates attempts to properly coordinate this breathing practice with movement, including breathing instructions with every exercise. “Above all, learn to breathe correctly.” [17]
We breathe on average around 18,000 breaths per day. Posterior lateral breathing is a way of breathing that facilitates bibasal expansion of the ribcage, this encourages the breath to travel down into the lower lungs and cleanse the blood by the exchange of oxygen with carbon dioxide. To understand this concept properly you have to first learn to expand and release the ribcage without deliberately breathing in or out. The in-breath (inhalation) and out-breath(exhalation) should occur instinctively as a result of the conscious expansion and release of the ribcage. This is how you would do this: You place your hands on your lower ribs with you thumbs facing the back of your ribcage, try not to think of breathing, relax your upper abdominals and expand your ribcage to the side against the soft resistance of your hands. Release the expansion of the ribcage by first melting away the area of the clavicles. You can also try this with a scarf around the lower ribcage. You will not be able to expand and release the ribcage effectively if you try to contract your abdominal muscles to expand the ribcage and if you try to contract the ribcage instead of first release it.
Now you should try to duplicate this action with conscious breathing in and breathing out. The in-breath (let it come) widens the ribcage laterally, posteriorly, and superiorly in the ratio of 60:30:10. That is 60% laterally, 30% posteriorly and 10% superiorly. The effect of this ratio of distribution is felt mainly as a back activity. The out-breath (gradually let it out) exits the body first through the gradual and gentle release of tension (intention) in the upper chest and breastbone area, without collapsing the front of the ribcage, and terminates through the activation of the power engine.[18]

Power Engine or Powerhouse

Pilates emphasizes the concepts of core strength and stabilization. Students are taught the concepts of core strength and stabilization, as well as to use your “powerhouse” throughout life’s daily activities. As Joseph Pilates called it, your “powerhouse” is the center of your body or your core and if strengthened, it offers a solid foundation for any movement. This power engine is a muscular network which provides the basic control and stability in the lumbopelvic region, which furthermore consists of the Pelvic floor muscles, the Transversus, the Multifidus, the diaphragm, the muscles of the inner thigh, and the muscles encircling the sitting bone area.
You activate the power engine effectively by hollowing of the deep abdominals and pelvic floor muscles (“Deep muscle corset”), by drawing the navel back into the spine in a zipping-up motion, from the pubic bone to the breast bone thereby engaging the heels, the back of the inner thighs, the deep lower back muscles, and the muscles surrounding the sitting bones and tailbone area without inhibiting the natural function of the diaphragm – that is without holding your breath either from lifting the chest upwards or contracting the chest.
Apart from providing core control and stability to the lumbopelvic region, in the sitting position the power engine elevates the torso and places the centre of gravity at its highest and most efficient position; in prone position it elongates the body bi-directionally to reduce weight in the upper body; in supine position it elongates the body bi-directionally and places the centre of gravity again at its highest and most efficient position.
The Power Engine opens up the vertical dimension of the body by grounding the pelvis to the earth and by elevating the spine towards the sky, much like a tree; the pelvis being the root and the branches being the spine.[18]
[edit]

[AJM]

None of these things are remotely close to being internal in nature though, not even close.
You are correct. It's apples and oranges.

[IronFist]

Why must you keep insisting that any parallel necessarily has to fall under your narrow definition of mystic?

How is controlling your diaphragm and closing off the airway at the glottis through the use of vocalization not internal?

The hick maneuver used by fighter pilots to withstand high G's uses a lot of muscular contractions and muscle tensing. Isn't that external by TCMA definitions?

[bawang]

people pointed out time and time again internal was a made up term in early 1900s to scam rich people. u guys have memory of a gold fish

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Pilates has so many parallels it is nearly impossible not to speculate that it's founder was directly influenced by yoga or daoyin/qigong.


In order to keep the lower abdominals close to the spine; the breathing needs to be directed laterally, into the lower ribcage. Pilates breathing is described as a posterior lateral breathing, meaning that the practitioner is instructed to breathe deep into the back and sides of his or her rib cage.

This does not sound like internal power. It sounds like breathing so you feel your back inflate. Internal lets the entire dantien expand in all directions. The abdominals expand AWAY from the spine. If you try to force the abs to stay as close to the spine as possible, you restrict the expansion of the dantien and choke off internal power.

It's very similar to the way you choke off internal power by arching the back, only it's the front of the body doing it.

So no, Pilates is not internal at all.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

people pointed out time and time again internal was a made up term in early 1900s to scam rich people. u guys have memory of a gold fish

Not true. Internal/external was used as far back as the Sung dynasty. It's very much descriptive of the dantien powered body method VS non dantien powered body methods.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The hick maneuver used by fighter pilots to withstand high G's uses a lot of muscular contractions and muscle tensing. Isn't that external by TCMA definitions?

Yes.



..................

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Everything I have seen my entire life and MA career shows me that Chinese Internal movement is something unique to the Chinese martial, arts. It's not found in any other discipline.

[wenshu]

Not true. Internal/external was used as far back as the Sung dynasty. It's very much descriptive of the dantien powered body method VS non dantien powered body methods.

I am going to venture a guess that you have no actual historically verifiable source for this ridiculous assertion. Making assumptions based on subjective observations gleaned from youtube videos of form performances is not a valid method of historical research.

There is no such thing as your inelegantly named "non dantien powered body method" in Chinese martial arts. The very concept is integral to the entire culture. Shuai Jiao teaches that **** to wet behind the ears neophytes on their first day, is Shuai Jiao considered internal?


This does not sound like internal power. It sounds like breathing so you feel your back inflate. Internal lets the entire dantien expand in all directions. The abdominals expand AWAY from the spine. If you try to force the abs to stay as close to the spine as possible, you restrict the expansion of the dantien and choke off internal power.

It's very similar to the way you choke off internal power by arching the back, only it's the front of the body doing it.

So no, Pilates is not internal at all.

I would think someone who claims to have such a depth of knowledge of "internal practices" would be familiar with reverse abdominal (fetal) breathing. I guess that is what happens when you learn the bulk of your martial arts practice from internet message boards and youtube videos.

Rounding your back and inhaling during exertion does not make something a "dantien powered body method". The **** out of here.

[wenshu]

The hick maneuver used by fighter pilots to withstand high G's uses a lot of muscular contractions and muscle tensing. Isn't that external by TCMA definitions?


Yes.


No it is not. There is an entire class of qi gong exercises that revolve around skeletal muscular contraction and tension. Wait, didn't we discuss this recently?
(http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61806)

[bawang]

I would think someone who claims to have such a depth of knowledge of "internal practices" would be familiar with reverse abdominal (fetal) breathing.

he claims during reverse breathing when you pop out your stomach, you are actually breathing IN. anyone who trains remotely anything legitimate can see this guy is a fraud. i dont know whethe to laugh or cry.

[Darthlawyer]

Not true. Internal/external was used as far back as the Sung dynasty. It's very much descriptive of the dantien powered body method VS non dantien powered body methods.
Actually, there's a strong argument that internal/external distinguishes arts that did not start inside China, i.e. the Buddhist Shaolin arts vs. the Wudang Taoist arts.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

he claims during reverse breathing when you pop out your stomach, you are actually breathing IN. anyone who trains remotely anything legitimate can see this guy is a fraud. i dont know whethe to laugh or cry.

You need to fly your Helicopter over here and meet me in the park like you said you were going to do last time...and never showed.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

he claims during reverse breathing when you pop out your stomach, you are actually breathing IN. anyone who trains remotely anything legitimate can see this guy is a fraud. i dont know whethe to laugh or cry.

I have not spoken about reverse breathing here. Only expanding the dantien through inflating, which drives power outward in all directions.

Stop making lies about me.

[Ray Pina]

This entire thread has been very amusing and revealing.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This entire thread has been very amusing and revealing.:)

Indeed.


When I was over in Beijing for the olympics I has a chance to speak with some of the chinese trainers ( friends of friends) and I asked them if they ever decided to add TCMA methodoligies and they pint out said that, decades ago when CHina decided to became a powerhouse and even more so when they get the Olympics, they want to bring home the medals ( just like Australia before them).
The government sports and research departments researched EVEYTHING, inculdung the TCMA training and in particular the IMA because they were already using TCM like accupuncture and herbs ( like the cordyceps that became a banned substance).
The found that NONE of the IMA methodolgies were AS effctive as modern scientfic ones simply becaus ethey were BASICALLY the SAME THING but with a slower progress and archaic terms for things that they now have modern terminology for.

In short: The pro atheltes and amateure athletes were already doing the "internals" that would be be helpful for their chosen sports and they were doing them WITHOUT the "BS" that surronds IMA.

[Indrafist]

Indeed.


When I was over in Beijing for the olympics I has a chance to speak with some of the chinese trainers ( friends of friends) and I asked them if they ever decided to add TCMA methodoligies and they pint out said that, decades ago when CHina decided to became a powerhouse and even more so when they get the Olympics, they want to bring home the medals ( just like Australia before them).
The government sports and research departments researched EVEYTHING, inculdung the TCMA training and in particular the IMA because they were already using TCM like accupuncture and herbs ( like the cordyceps that became a banned substance).
The found that NONE of the IMA methodolgies were AS effctive as modern scientfic ones simply becaus ethey were BASICALLY the SAME THING but with a slower progress and archaic terms for things that they now have modern terminology for.

In short: The pro atheltes and amateure athletes were already doing the "internals" that would be be helpful for their chosen sports and they were doing them WITHOUT the "BS" that surronds IMA.

There you have it.... :)

[Lucas]

Indeed.


When I was over in Beijing for the olympics I has a chance to speak with some of the chinese trainers ( friends of friends) and I asked them if they ever decided to add TCMA methodoligies and they pint out said that, decades ago when CHina decided to became a powerhouse and even more so when they get the Olympics, they want to bring home the medals ( just like Australia before them).
The government sports and research departments researched EVEYTHING, inculdung the TCMA training and in particular the IMA because they were already using TCM like accupuncture and herbs ( like the cordyceps that became a banned substance).
The found that NONE of the IMA methodolgies were AS effctive as modern scientfic ones simply becaus ethey were BASICALLY the SAME THING but with a slower progress and archaic terms for things that they now have modern terminology for.

In short: The pro atheltes and amateure athletes were already doing the "internals" that would be be helpful for their chosen sports and they were doing them WITHOUT the "BS" that surronds IMA.

:eek::eek::eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't be so shocked.
If you want to see elite physical performance then you look at the elite athletes.
Sure we have to dis count the perfomance enhancers and such, and we nned to understand WHY they are used (not because the traning methods are invalid but because athletes need to turn those methods into gains at a far quicker pace then the normal person does), as non-elite performers we use the same methods that have been prove OVER and OVER to be the most effective and since we are "not in a rush" we take the correct amount of time to heap the rewards.

[IronFist]

Indeed.


When I was over in Beijing for the olympics I has a chance to speak with some of the chinese trainers ( friends of friends) and I asked them if they ever decided to add TCMA methodoligies and they pint out said that, decades ago when CHina decided to became a powerhouse and even more so when they get the Olympics, they want to bring home the medals ( just like Australia before them).
The government sports and research departments researched EVEYTHING, inculdung the TCMA training and in particular the IMA because they were already using TCM like accupuncture and herbs ( like the cordyceps that became a banned substance).
The found that NONE of the IMA methodolgies were AS effctive as modern scientfic ones simply becaus ethey were BASICALLY the SAME THING but with a slower progress and archaic terms for things that they now have modern terminology for.

In short: The pro atheltes and amateure athletes were already doing the "internals" that would be be helpful for their chosen sports and they were doing them WITHOUT the "BS" that surronds IMA.

You mean world class athletes only use the most effective training methods and don't bother with other stuff? :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago I talked to the wrestling and Judo coach Wang De-Yin in Bejing Sport University. Wang also said that he had no intention to introduce "internal" training method to his Olympic teams.

I have not heard any "internal" master who had won any Chinese wrestling competation in Chinese history yet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You mean world class athletes only use the most effective training methods and don't bother with other stuff? :eek:

More along the mines that they already were, just under a different "name".
The "other stuff" that was shown to work was stuff that the athletes were already doing in some form or another.

[Lucas]

in grappling you need to use 'everything' or you lose. i think in most disciplines that involve high levels of human condition, you work the whole package, regardless of how you get there, you are developing your whole body. i would need to see produced results from a 'internal' master that can not be duplicated by an athlete that does not study 'internal' methods.

'mr gorbachev tear down this wall'

[YouKnowWho]

i would need to see produced results from a 'internal' master that can not be duplicated by an athlete that does not study 'internal' methods.
Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, if anybody can prove that there is a such thing as 'internal hip throw", we can then prove that "internal" is useful in the throwing art. Until then, I don't see any good reason to bring the "internal" training method into the throwing art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

in grappling you need to use 'everything' or you lose. i think in most disciplines that involve high levels of human condition, you work the whole package, regardless of how you get there, you are developing your whole body. i would need to see produced results from a 'internal' master that can not be duplicated by an athlete that does not study 'internal' methods.

'mr gorbachev tear down this wall'

The point of those thread, at least for the question that i t asked, was HOW does the "west" train the internal.
And from what I have seen, the same way it trains the external ( not that there is a difference in the west, or east for that matter), via trial and experimentation and adapting what works consistently.

[David Jamieson]

I think we forgot to mention, beer, hamburgers and hotdogs.

[IronFist]

You mean world class athletes only use the most effective training methods and don't bother with other stuff? :eek:

Actually, that was kind of a d.ick comment by me.

Obviously people will tend to do what they think is best. The problem is just a lot of people are mislead about what is most effective.

I know I was. That's why for years I did so much dynamic tension stuff when I should've been lifting weights instead. I thought I was getting so strong. lol. Then one day I went to the gym and found out I wasn't really very strong (although I was "strong" for someone my weight who didn't lift weights).

Although, I could flex my muscles for a long time. That's what happens when you spend 30+ minutes a day doing a dynamic tension set :o

At least you could say I was dedicated :D

[Ray Pina]

This thread would probably have been different if devotees of Taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua commented.

[bawang]

the chinese idea of internal is someone who looks weak but is strong. but western corrupted interpretation is someone who IS weak but can beat up strong people. that is a huge difference

[Lucas]

the chinese idea of internal is someone who looks weak but is strong. but western corrupted interpretation is someone who IS weak but can beat up strong people. that is a huge difference

totally true...you always got to look out for the guy that looks small until he takes his shirt off.

[bawang]

the founder of yang style tai chi lifted a lot of weights. there is a three hundred pound stone seal at his old house on display.

legend says yang luchan could crack every single joint in his body. thats the sign of someone who lifted a lot of weights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

totally true...you always got to look out for the guy that looks small until he takes his shirt off.

Well, people tend to get surprised when "thin" people are strong because they aren't BIG, not because they are "super" strong, know what I mean?
All the strong guys I know LOOK strong and while the thinner guys don't look as big of course, they nevertheless LOOK strong ( developed muscles).

[David Jamieson]

yeah, but I think we've already come to a consensus that people as individuals are clever, even smart. But in a group they are all outright morons.

[bawang]

i think internal is another word for passive aggresiveness.

when you learn to sneer and smirk at other peoples kung fu and make them feel very bad, you have the real internal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah, but I think we've already come to a consensus that people as individuals are clever, even smart. But in a group they are all outright morons.

This is, regrettably, true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for small and strong:
Galabin Boevski was the olympic champ in 2000, did a 195 KG clean and jerk at a BW of 69 kg.

Zhan XUgana at 77 KG Clane and jerked 207kg
Shi_Zhiyong at 62kg had a 152.5kg snatch (LOL).
The chinese female olympic lifters dominate their weightclasses !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

[bawang]

i do qigong before i workout. its a great warmup.

combine external and internal, become one with the tao.

[Lucas]

could crack every single joint in his body. thats the sign of someone who lifted a lot of weights.

thats weird cuz thats how i am, i can totally crack pretty much all my joints, and have even learned how to 'adjust' myself in many ways you find a chiropractor doing. it actually helps out alot when you feel 'out of place' i just put it back where it goes. lol

[bawang]

weight lifting= hard qigong.


thats weird cuz thats how i am, i can totally crack pretty much all my joints, and have even learned how to 'adjust' myself in many ways you find a chiropractor doing. it actually helps out alot when you feel 'out of place' i just put it back where it goes. lol

i dont think thats a good thing, bro. i rotate my joints and eat glucosamine and i dont make much noise anymore.

[Lucas]

naw its just how ive always been. i even consulted a doctor about it when i was younger. its a least resistance kind of thing, some people are just like that. at least thats what the doc told me. I can force a release if i want but i dont do that because its not good to try and force 'popping'

[wenshu]

People (sexually marginalized beta male hard gainer westerners to be specific) desperately cling to the idea that "internal" is a pugilistic panacea.

There are undoubtedly practices that can be justifiably classified as internal; meditation, qi gong (hell even strategic thinking). The problem so often demonstrated is when people believe that practicing these things without a strong base in simple physical conditioning amounts to anything more than just practicing meditation and qi gong.

[bawang]

People (sexually marginalized beta male hard gainer westerners to be specific) desperately cling to the idea that "internal" is a pugilistic panacea.



from far away, you cant tell if they are man or womans. some time if you do bang bang bang in anoos, it feels just like with a womans.

[Indrafist]

I think we forgot to mention, beer, hamburgers and hotdogs.

"The intelligence of a group is the inverse ratio of its size"
Carl Gustav Jung.

[IronFist]

As for small and strong:
Galabin Boevski was the olympic champ in 2000, did a 195 KG clean and jerk at a BW of 69 kg.

Zhan XUgana at 77 KG Clane and jerked 207kg
Shi_Zhiyong at 62kg had a 152.5kg snatch (LOL).
The chinese female olympic lifters dominate their weightclasses !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

Galabin Boevski was the olympic champ in 2000, did a 429.9 pound clean and jerk at a BW of 152.1 pounds

Zhan XUgana at 169.75lbs Clane and jerked 456.35lbs
Shi_Zhiyong at 136.6lbs had a 336.20lbs snatch (LOL).
The chinese female olympic lifters dominate their weightclasses !

I translated your post into American :p

[Ray Pina]

There are undoubtedly practices that can be justifiably classified as internal; meditation, qi gong (hell even strategic thinking). The problem so often demonstrated is when people believe that practicing these things without a strong base in simple physical conditioning amounts to anything more than just practicing meditation and qi gong.

Don't let people fool you. There is an "internal" way of fighting. It's very clever and efficient.

It has to do with mechanics and alignment but also strategy. All of this could be entailed in something as simple as Ba Gua circle walking. Each step is a kick but it's not rounded.... its like a straight knee with the foot turned out to protect the gate but not going up, it goes out..... the walking is to practice drive and hang time. The circle helps train changing direction while driving off the back leg. It's not a rounded, erect, single point balance kick. It is a falling-on-you-under-control driving forward thing.

This is just one kick. One example of circle walking.

As I look back now, a handful of advantages like that, including being able to strike while shielding allowed me to not get destroyed in competitions (San Da, MMA) I had no business competing in without previous high-level experience in kick boxing, etc., sparring partners and conditioning.

Now that I'm more seasoned and have filled in holes I realize these things allow me at 37 to perform against guys much younger than me. At the very least I cancel out/jam up their energy filled movement with very simple movement.... overtime, I let them spend themselves and then I finish.

The only teachers I could recommend is Master David Chan in NY and based on his feedback Mr. BK Frantzis .... other than that I just see guys walking in circles with weights:), talking all kinds of nonsense. The two men above have studied the real thing with legit fighters.

My master's master Wong Zong Fei was/is a legend in China. His son trained the Singapore special forces. Don't let people who don't know discourage you from learning something. It's as wrong for an MMA to talk out of turn about Internal as vice versa.

Real internal players fight for the same reason I fight..... who says they're better than me? If they're not a hardcore, fighting age, pro fighter type..... I'm willing to throw fists to prove it. And even then I'd sample. Truth is it doesn't take much. You can tell right away.

[wenshu]

Don't let people fool you. There is an "internal" way of fighting. It's very clever and efficient.

It has to do with mechanics and alignment but also strategy. All of this could be entailed in something as simple as Ba Gua circle walking. Each step is a kick but it's not rounded.... its like a straight knee with the foot turned out to protect the gate but not going up, it goes out..... the walking is to practice drive and hang time. The circle helps train changing direction while driving off the back leg. It's not a rounded, erect, single point balance kick. It is a falling-on-you-under-control driving forward thing.

This is just one kick. One example of circle walking.


MY point is that what you describe is no different than styles labeled external. They all have mechanics, efficiency, cleverness and strategy.

[Ray Pina]

I never said they didn't. A western boxer has a certain way of employing mechanics, etc.... that's completely different from Wing Chun. In fact, I would say completely different structure and striking mechanics. Hung Gar generates power differently than Southern Mantis. Judo and BJJ take a different approach with their tactics, though the techniques are mostly the same.

Not only does internal have unique methods of applying their skill sets/abilities, even within the three major arts there are vast differences: Hsing-I creates space using wedging and goes forward upon threats. Looks to occupy. Taiji absorbs an attack, letting the opening essentialy create itself. And Ba Gua, the one I saw the least of, is about very unexpected angles of attacks. Fists coming with power, mechanics, alignment from weird angles.

I have a student now. We just started week two. Next week I'll have my wife video some of our practice and you can tell me if/where you've seen it before.

[bawang]

i feel sad that a lot of traditional martial arts are not getting the recognition they deserve because people today are more comfortable with the well known "brands".

i really think the reason a lot of people obsess about interneals is because it is inside their comfort zone. americans feel comfortable about kung fu as long as its silly and not serious.

[Ray Pina]

i really think the reason a lot of people obsess about interneals is because it is inside their comfort zone. americans feel comfortable about kung fu as long as its silly and not serious.


I didn't start fighting out until I trained internal. That's what made me feel safe about fighting. We trained with boxing gloves and head gear. Many classes we used chest guards and thigh guards so we could train with full power. This was a rare exception for internal or external Kung Fu 10 - 12 years ago.

Where's the serious stuff? China?..... bull$hit! I go once a year for work for the past 8 years. The best I've seen there is a BJJ school in Shanghai and one Taiji man who had skill. All the external guys serve me soup and shine my shoes. They're bums.

I ask again: Who's the serious Kung Fu representative for internal or external? Is it you? Are you the best fighter TCMA has to put forward? WHO IS IT? This is a relative question but scary I ask 3 times and no one can mention a single name.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Galabin Boevski was the olympic champ in 2000, did a 429.9 pound clean and jerk at a BW of 152.1 pounds

Zhan XUgana at 169.75lbs Clane and jerked 456.35lbs
Shi_Zhiyong at 136.6lbs had a 336.20lbs snatch (LOL).
The chinese female olympic lifters dominate their weightclasses !

I translated your post into American :p

LMAO !
I had to re-read it to see what you translated !

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I didn't start fighting out until I trained internal. That's what made me feel safe about fighting. We trained with boxing gloves and head gear. Many classes we used chest guards and thigh guards so we could train with full power. This was a rare exception for internal or external Kung Fu 10 - 12 years ago.

Where's the serious stuff? China?..... bull$hit! I go once a year for work for the past 8 years. The best I've seen there is a BJJ school in Shanghai and one Taiji man who had skill. All the external guys serve me soup and shine my shoes. They're bums.

I ask again: Who's the serious Kung Fu representative for internal or external? Is it you? Are you the best fighter TCMA has to put forward? WHO IS IT? This is a relative question but scary I ask 3 times and no one can mention a single name.

Mike Patterson.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

MY point is that what you describe is no different than styles labeled external. They all have mechanics, efficiency, cleverness and strategy.

It's the specifics that make the difference. I have clearly explained this, adnauseum, earlier in the thread.

Internal, is the unique use of the dantien, that is NOT found in other endeavors.

When you strip away all the overlapping stuff, that both internal and external have, the specific way the dantien is used in the internal arts, is the only tangible (but significant) difference.

This is really super simple here. I have explained it time, and time again, and only a hand full of you ever get what I am saying(oddly, it's the internal players that get it). It's like you external guys can't be taught or something.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's the specifics that make the difference. I have clearly explained this, adnauseum, earlier in the thread.

Internal, is the unique use of the dantien, that is NOT found in other endeavors.

.

As has been pointed out, it is NOT unique.
Sorry.
I think you need to do some reading on biomechanics, kinematics and sports in general.

[Ray Pina]

Mike Patterson.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhAgQvdrIXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0gqzM4tUA&feature=related


If this is the same, does he have any students that go out to play?

[Ray Pina]

I should have DVDS, books, stickers, T-shirts out the wazooooo...... you guys have all got to be fu(king kidding me.

[Ray Pina]

No one watches this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w

This is me kicking everyone's a$$ when all I studied was E-Chuan. Before BJJ and MMA entered into my life.

That should be the 1st piece of evidence offered anytime some MMA asks for video proof of Kung Fu. It's been posted up here now for some time. You'd think the Kung Fu mags would want to interview a Kung Fu man who has fought underground, below ground, in cages, to save himself in Puerto Rico,e ct., etc., ... who's trained with some heavy names and the 4th generation holder of Ba Gua. Not phoney balloney. My master learned from Master Wong Tson Fei, who had Master Gong Bo Tien as his personal, live at home gym teacher.

[Ray Pina]

3:22 in shows it all. I don't box. I don't exchange. I control you completely, then I hit you, then you fall down.

[lkfmdc]

This is me kicking everyone's a$$ when all I studied was E-Chuan.



really Ray? you kicked everyone's a$$ with only your E-Chuan?

I seem to remember differently

[David Jamieson]

Ray, here's my observation on those vids.

1. you appear to start in a mode of friendly match up

2. you move in move out

3. you see an opening and then ramp up the conflict beyond sparring and start going over the top.


I think that if you wanted to do that, you did better to get in the ring. I think when you ramp up and start holding a guys head while striking can hardly be called a friendly spar. The intention is all out, so you send a mixed message.

what you should ask for is to fight, period, not spar, because you were not sparring, you were fighting dudes who thought they were getting into sparring.

Surprising people with full force attacks after asking for a friendly sparring match hardly seems like anything more than pranking.

No offense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

3:22 in shows it all. I don't box. I don't exchange. I control you completely, then I hit you, then you fall down.

But how was your dantien Ray?
:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

As has been pointed out, it is NOT unique.
Sorry.
I think you need to do some reading on biomechanics, kinematics and sports in general.

I have, and all i saw was a bunch of stuff over lapping that is common to both. I never saw one, ever, that was a discussion on the SPECIFIC dantien driven mechanics that makes internal arts, internal.

All you external people just want to claim you understand it, when you don't. You just look at all the same stuff *Everybody* does, and say "See, we do all that too, it's the same thing" while you completely ignore the unique aspects that define the practice.

To an extent, I understand the confusion. There are a ton of people claiming to have internal skills, who are nothing more than refined external players who "Think" they have it.

The other thing that confuses everyone is that Internal skills are an extra addition to the external skills. They give your external stuff another layer of power generation, thus maximizing the output. However, it requires learning a completely different, and alien way to use your core. That takes time.

The key here is that it is a completely different, and alien way to use your core.

It's not just using the core that makes it internal, it's a specific, unique and almost backwards (to the norm) way of using it that makes the difference. Breathing in, when you punch out is an example.

So if you are looking at what you do, thinking it's internal, and then you look around and all the external guys are using thier core the same way, you don't have it.

If you are an external guy, looking at people claiming to be internal, and they are not doing anything extra(or completely different with thier use of the core), than what you are doing, you are not looking at someone with internal skills. It's does not matter what they claim, who taught them to how much Qi gibberish they spout.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have, and all i saw was a bunch of stuff over lapping that is common to both. I never saw one, ever, that was a discussion on the SPECIFIC dantien driven mechanics that makes internal arts, internal.

Which probably means you haven't read the stuff thatis out there.
But giving you the benefit of the doubt, which I always do to everyone, please show us the specific dantien driven mechanics that are NOT present in how athletes perform their chosen sport.
To keep it simple lets take a sprinter doing the most natural and easiest of things:
Running.
How does an "internalist" run the 100 meters any different than a sprinter with "no internal training"?

[Ray Pina]

really Ray? you kicked everyone's a$$ with only your E-Chuan?

I seem to remember differently

Everyone except that one monster you paired me up with, who I found out was already a pro MMA competing in amatuer San Da just to stay loose.... thanks for that;) And a couple other guys who were much more seasoned and just better fighters than me. I have been whipped. But my overall win column, when including BJJ, MMA, is still way positive. Plus the experience has been priceless.... when the fighting is going on I'm in the ring, not outside it holding the water or selling/collecting tickets. Making a living sending someone else to fight..... with all due respect.

[lkfmdc]

Everyone except that one monster you paired me up with, who I found out was already a pro MMA competing in amatuer San Da just to stay loose.... thanks for that;)



do you need LIES to sleep at night? :rolleyes:

you never fought a pro in an amateur match. You fought in NJ under COMMISSION sanctioning

Your first san da match you fought an 18 year old kid with 6 months of training

I thought you had actually learned something over the years, I guess not

[Ray Pina]

Ray, here's my observation on those vids.

1. you appear to start in a mode of friendly match up

2. you move in move out

3. you see an opening and then ramp up the conflict beyond sparring and start going over the top.


I think that if you wanted to do that, you did better to get in the ring. I think when you ramp up and start holding a guys head while striking can hardly be called a friendly spar. The intention is all out, so you send a mixed message.

what you should ask for is to fight, period, not spar, because you were not sparring, you were fighting dudes who thought they were getting into sparring.

Surprising people with full force attacks after asking for a friendly sparring match hardly seems like anything more than pranking.

No offense.


That is not true. The video, compiled now nearly 10 years ago by a former student of mine, is 100% challenge matches accepted by me on BullShido/Sherdog as well as sanctioned matches in NJ. Its just clips. A little highlight. But it's all real. And there's technique there.

Everyone who showed up showed up to fight, knew they were showing up to fight because they either invited me to fight them or got matched up with me with the NJ athletic commission.

Most of all, those aren't my students feeding my underhand softball strikes and standing there. I'm wedging, uprooting, intercepting and sticking and following/striking, etc., etc., live people trying to hit me.

[wenshu]

I kick everybody's ass all the time everywhere. My inflated beer gut, er, dantien gives me superpowers.

That's the real definition of internal; entertaining self obsessed wild fantasies and delusions of grandeur.

[Ray Pina]

do you need LIES to sleep at night? :rolleyes:

you never fought a pro in an amateur match. You fought in NJ under COMMISSION sanctioning




The guy you see in the video with me in the ring, the one when I have my shirt on:) The guy who TKOes me in the first who had a what I thought was a native American last name: Cloud or St Cloud or something like that, I can dig it up if you make me.

He already had a number of pro MMA fights in NJ at a time before their was an organized amateur league. Having fought pro, he could not fight amateur MMA. He could fight amateur San Da though. And by the luck of the draw, guess who got paired up with him?

Didn't matter. He won that whole event. The USKBA World Championships in Jersey. He beat 2 other guys on the same day after me. I know this about him because he told me himself.

I don't lie. I have no reason too. I don't claim to be the best (but I might be one of the best fighting Kung Fuers ... which isn't saying much) and I don't make a living off of my MA. I'm not selling anything.

My points is that there are differences amongst TCMA styles, internal including, and that they can work if trained right. My sub point now, is that record or no record, a man that fights for himself is of a different caliber than one that makes a name off others blood,sweat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keep the thread on subject guys, take the e-***** measuring to another thread.

[lkfmdc]

The guy you see in the video with me in the ring, the one when I have my shirt on:) The guy who TKOes me in the first who had a what I thought was a native American last name: Cloud or St Cloud or something like that, I can dig it up if you make me.



Please, go "dig it up" because I know you can't. It's a lie, he never fought MMA, he certainly wasn't a pro!

And while we are at it, that was an OPEN tournament an no one "matched you"

The only match that was pre arranged was when you fought an 18 year old with 6 months training

I can dig that match up if you'd like :rolleyes:




I don't lie. I have no reason too.


If you don't realize you are lying, that's a lot worse

[lkfmdc]

Keep the thread on subject guys, take the e-***** measuring to another thread.

It IS on topic, if he's talking about himself as an example of effective internal fighting

In the time I knew Ray, he didn't win a SINGLE sanctioned match in either a ring or a cage.

David Jamieson was dead on, showing up at a "throw down" against other guys who aren't training to fight and then going 100% doesn't mean much.

[Ray Pina]

David Jamieson was dead on, showing up at a "throw down" against other guys who aren't training to fight and then going 100% doesn't mean much.


I agree with you that Throwdowns are worthless, dangerous and wouldn't attract anyone worth mettle.

[lkfmdc]

I agree with you that Throwdowns are worthless, dangerous and wouldn't attract anyone worth mettle.

quoted for truth.....

we would get contacted and they'd say "but you can get some sparring in"

well, we spar ALL THE TIME IN THE GYM...

and if we wanted a full, contested bout, we'd do one

[Ray Pina]

But how was your dantien Ray?
:D

Honestly, dantien played very little in what I saw of internal. When standing we tucked. And sometimes, say when someone is pushing you. you step back, tuck, and it offers a little extra support.... I'd rather just circle.

What my study was linking the foot and the hand, Developing the ability to shield and strike at the same time. The ability to touch an incoming hand and go straight in without pulling back/reloading the fist..... I had more to learn for sure. But those were the key areas of my stud.

Tactically, Hsing-I's Swallow and Horse were interesting and effective ways to attack someone's raised/guarded hands. Worth learning.

[David Jamieson]

That is not true. The video, compiled now nearly 10 years ago by a former student of mine, is 100% challenge matches accepted by me on BullShido/Sherdog as well as sanctioned matches in NJ. Its just clips. A little highlight. But it's all real. And there's technique there.

Everyone who showed up showed up to fight, knew they were showing up to fight because they either invited me to fight them or got matched up with me with the NJ athletic commission.

Most of all, those aren't my students feeding my underhand softball strikes and standing there. I'm wedging, uprooting, intercepting and sticking and following/striking, etc., etc., live people trying to hit me.

I see you lifting and running down.
I see you bending elbows to strike at the head.
I see you attempting to guillotine.

None of these are bad tactics. But ramping up to 100% at a sparring contest?
Who does that? I mean besides you and that guy who knocked out black karate jesus dude?

sparring, and looking to hurt someone are two different things.

In a fight, that's when someone is gonna lay the hurt on. IN sparring it's time to get the learn on and the same goes for throwdowns. They're share and learn, not down and burn. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

The throwdowns I went to were all in good fun with only one fight the exception because two guys need to "make a statement", one for BJJ and the other for Wu Taiji.
Just kids wanting to spar and test themselves in a limited good-hearted environment.
At least that is how it was when I was there and made sure that there were no "egos".
The degree of contact was agreed by all beforehand.

[Ray Pina]

quoted for truth.....

we would get contacted and they'd say "but you can get some sparring in"

well, we spar ALL THE TIME IN THE GYM...

and if we wanted a full, contested bout, we'd do one

I'm not sure how that relates to me. In those days I'd defend TCMA on Sherdog and Bullshido, and about 8 NYC area guys, one from Philly, called me out to fight. So I did.

My technique was immature and sloppy then. I was missing some big fundamentals such as a ground game and changing levels. I had awesome defense, power, and explosivity.

But let me tell you something David. You talk up your lineage, which I know is legit. I know you studied with your master..... but in my eyes you're nowhere man. I've seen the old footage of your training. It wasn't MMA by far. It wasn't San Da by far either. It was funny looking crane like stuff in goofy outfits. And really bad sparring.

So what you're doing now, which I admit is successful, is not what you learned from your master. And you were never a kickboxer, MMAers, wrestler, BJJ player.... essentially, correct me if I'm wrong, it's sort of like MasterKiller..... educate yourself via video, seminars and then regurgitate it to people who will fight for you.

You have no sanctioned boxing, kick boxing, MMA or San Da matches do you? I know for sure you're not entering into a ring anytime soon.

The technique you're teaching now seams OK but it's regular. Nothing anyone couldn't find on YouTube. Certainly not something the old or week could use to fight against the young and the strong.... a lot of timing required. Explosivity.

Again, there is nothing wrong with this. But that is what internal is seeking. That's what I am seeking. How could an old guy like you still step up? That's the guy I wanted to learn from.... and I found him when he was 65. He had something not regular. Something that allowed me to go fight since. Something to build upon.

[lkfmdc]

The throwdowns I went to were all in good fun with only one fight the exception because two guys need to "make a statement", one for BJJ and the other for Wu Taiji.
Just kids wanting to spar and test themselves in a limited good-hearted environment.
At least that is how it was when I was there and made sure that there were no "egos".
The degree of contact was agreed by all beforehand.

but you should be getting that in your school, if you belong to a good one

the fact that there needs to be something external to get this done is indicative of the problems facing martial arts today

[sanjuro_ronin]

but you should be getting that in your school, if you belong to a good one

the fact that there needs to be something external to get this done is indicative of the problems facing martial arts today

Some of them didn't belong to any school at the time, or didn't do sparring at their schools, all were old enough to be my kids so, I bowed out after attending a few.

[lkfmdc]

But let me tell you something David. You talk up your lineage, which I know is legit. I know you studied with your master..... but in my eyes you're nowhere man. I've seen the old footage of your training. It wasn't MMA by far. It wasn't San Da by far either. It was funny looking crane like stuff in goofy outfits. And really bad sparring.



are you on drugs? I ask since there is NO sparring footage from the CTS days

There are only a few still pics

and perhaps you should re-read some of the comments by people who were ACTUALLY THERE, like Taaigihkyaan




So what you're doing now, which I admit is successful, is not what you learned from your master.



Since you weren't there, you have absolutely NO IDEA what I learned from my master

Of course some of what I teach today isn't from him, I've clearly said that




The technique you're teaching now seams OK but it's regular. Nothing anyone couldn't find on YouTube. Certainly not something the old or week could use to fight against the young and the strong....



yup, I'm going back to my drug theory based upon that :D

I really thought you'd seen the light, but I guess not, oh well

[Ray Pina]

Please, go "dig it up" because I know you can't. It's a lie, he never fought MMA, he certainly wasn't a pro!


Stehan Clouds pro MMA record as of 2006
http://mixedmartialarts.iccllc.com/f/A24B11C5E0F710D5

Here's you asking me if I wanted to rematch him:

Ray,

Do you want to fight San Da on March 11th in NYC? Stephan Cloud was supposed to fight Feliz Mejia (Aki El-More Ryu Jujitsu, 185 lbs 3-2 record) byt Stephan dropped out with an injury... do you want to fight Feliz?? If you beat Feliz it would make for a nice re-match with Stephan....

If interested email me at LKFMDC@att.net

I'm on a tight deadline but can dig up more when I get a chance. Apparently he also had some pro kickboxing fights to.... that event was my second time in a ring, ever.

I will say the other young guy you sent me to fight in the cage changed my life. It was his side control that made me go learn BJJ. For that I'm thankful..... but he took me down because he wanted no piece of my hands.

[lkfmdc]

Stehan Clouds pro MMA record as of 2006
http://mixedmartialarts.iccllc.com/f/A24B11C5E0F710D5



LMFAO, yup drugs :rolleyes:

Do you not understand how time and space works? If in MARCH we were discussing a RE MATCH and he didn't fight MMA until May THEN wasn't an MMA fighter when you fought him - oh, and in MARCH he fought AMATEUR MMA (combat in the cage was ED HSU's event - don't act like you dont' know who ED HSU is!)

If you can't wrap your mind around that, so be it :rolleyes:




I will say the other young guy you sent me to fight in the cage changed my life. It was his side control that made me go learn BJJ. For that I'm thankful..... but he took me down because he wanted no piece of my hands.

LMFAO at yet more "only in your mind"

First, ED HSU promoted and match made that event, and the NJSACB approved the match. The only part we took was agreeing to the fight (which was a no brainer)

Why did he take you down? Because we knew you had no clue what to do on the ground, in fact you tapped before he even put the choke on! So he won a match in under a minute and got to go home with the W early

[lkfmdc]

Like I said, there is no real footage of CTS teaching us and definitely no sparring footage from those days, but there are some stills

Does seem like CTS is showing sweeps off kick catches, knees and standing locks

Does seem like we are sparring

[Mike Patterson]

I should have DVDS, books, stickers, T-shirts out the wazooooo...... you guys have all got to be fu(king kidding me.

Geez, I could barely hear you through all the chest thumping. But I think I got the gist of your message.

Kungfu is not just about fighting, Ray. But on the fighting level, I have proven myself sufficiently through my lifetime. First by competing and winning in full contact, no gear, all inclusive events in Asia when you were still wet behind the ears. And then by training dominant winnning teams first in the 80's for the same type of competitions in Asia. And then again in the 90's in similar structures. These records speak for themselves.

But Kungfu is also about discipline. Something you clearly seem to lack both in your demeanor and your fighting. You say; "offer you clip as evidence". I would never do such a thing as you represent all that I despise in the martial arts and nothing that I would want anyone who is involved to aspire toward.

Very cheesy, putting up a couple clips of me "teaching" and using that to denigrate my fighting skills. Predictable and very schoolyard.

Now, go ahead and continue your "rant" as I sure as hell amn not going to allow myself to get sucked into the black hole of nonsense that is this thread. Let alone you.

I wonder, would your much venerated former master be pleased? Or appalled at your behaviour?

I surely know how I would feel. :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Which probably means you haven't read the stuff thatis out there.
But giving you the benefit of the doubt, which I always do to everyone, please show us the specific dantien driven mechanics that are NOT present in how athletes perform their chosen sport.
To keep it simple lets take a sprinter doing the most natural and easiest of things:
Running.
How does an "internalist" run the 100 meters any different than a sprinter with "no internal training"?

Please re read the thread. I very clearly and specifically laid out the basics.

Running is not an internal activity. It's not relevant.

[lkfmdc]

Shihfu Patterson, you're new to Ray's posting style, but I think you've got it figured out :p


Geez, I could barely hear you through all the chest thumping. But I think I got the gist of your message.

Kungfu is not just about fighting, Ray. But on the fighting level, I have proven myself sufficiently through my lifetime. First by competing and winning in full contact, no gear, all inclusive events in Asia when you were still wet behind the ears. And then by training dominant winnning teams first in the 80's for the same type of competitions in Asia. And then again in the 90's in similar structures. These records speak for themselves.

But Kungfu is also about discipline. Something you clearly seem to lack both in your demeanor and your fighting. You say; "offer you clip as evidence". I would never do such a thing as you represent all that I despise in the martial arts and nothing that I would want anyone who is involved to aspire toward.

Very cheesy, putting up a couple clips of me "teaching" and using that to denigrate my fighting skills. Predictable and very schoolyard.

Now, go ahead and continue your "rant" as I sure as hell amn not going to allow myself to get sucked into the black hole of nonsense that is this thread. Let alone you.

I wonder, would your much venerated former master be pleased? Or appalled at your behaviour?

I surely know how I would feel. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

Since you weren't there, you have absolutely NO IDEA what I learned from my master

Of course some of what I teach today isn't from him, I've clearly said that


I can see the clear progression from what you put your years studying. From this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1tWVp-tO5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAMvJmBcR0


To this. Boxing 101:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Uu9vUgfx8&feature=related

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Honestly, dantien played very little in what I saw of internal. When standing we tucked. And sometimes, say when someone is pushing you. you step back, tuck, and it offers a little extra support.... I'd rather just circle.

What my study was linking the foot and the hand, Developing the ability to shield and strike at the same time. The ability to touch an incoming hand and go straight in without pulling back/reloading the fist..... I had more to learn for sure. But those were the key areas of my stud.

Tactically, Hsing-I's Swallow and Horse were interesting and effective ways to attack someone's raised/guarded hands. Worth learning.

That stuff is common to all quality arts though. It's not really internal, or external. It just is.

[Ray Pina]

That stuff is common to all quality arts though. It's not really internal, or external. It just is.

That's true. Boxers and kickboxers, etc, develop it for sure. Its the result of fight training. I don't see it in many TCMA styles, especially external. If anything, they appear disconnected with bad posture, even in drills.

The point of internal, especially in reference to today's modern times, is that an educated, classy man can learn some strong self defense fundamentals such as structure, mechanics, power, etc. without having to expose themselves to the fighting world.

At the time that video was taken, I had no sparring partners. Just classmates I did full power drills with. And it got me through when I was fat and inexperienced against guys who trained much harder..... though that is why they won.

I'm a much better MAer today for the process. And there's no getting around training hard and getting smashed from time to time if you want to be a fighter. But not everyone wants to be a fighter. IMA is a good source to learn for the lay man if its legit (good luck). And honestly, there was less hokey pokey when I studied internal.... no forms, no lion dance. It really was a very unique training that I miss. I wish I could compliment it now with BJJ and I'd be stoked. Hopefully my new student will help with this.