The Pareto Principle and TCMA

[MightyB]

The Pareto principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) in business states:

"80% of your profits come from 20% of your customers
80% of your complaints come from 20% of your customers
80% of your profits come from 20% of the time you spend
80% of your sales come from 20% of your products
80% of your sales are made by 20% of your sales staff
Therefore, many businesses have an easy access to dramatic improvements in profitability by focusing on the most effective areas and eliminating, ignoring, automating, delegating or re-training the rest, as appropriate."


So how does this 80/20 rule relate to TCMA? If we extrapolate the principle to martial arts practice, it'd basically mean that 80% of your "successes" come from only 20% of what you practice. How could you examine your practices to increase efficiency in your training?... in self defense? ... in competition? ... in personal development? etc.

[jdhowland]

Assuming this 80/20 rule applies, it still doesn't mean that the 80% of knowledge or training is a waste of time. In a good system it adds something. It adds to the joy of training if nothing else, and certainly to different takes on strategies, a certain flexibility of mind.

More than 40 years ago my first kung fu teacher told me, "When you fight, it's all just basics." I've found this to be true. In sparring I can use much less than 20%, maybe 1% of what I practice. No need to be too clever. But I've also had to use it for real and it never developed into fancy technique, but it was also never kick and punch basic combos. I believe the whole spectrum of training saved me more than once.

[David Jamieson]

80% planning / 20% execution

80% of your ability will come from 20% of your exercises..

80% of your strength will come from 20% of your workout

[Lucas]

80% Of practitioners will get their asses handed to them by the other 20% :D

[SPJ]

yes how to recover from your exposure/openness, failure, defeat

that is how you improve your batting or success average.

in mantis it is called bu luo or patch up your leak

in order to gain advantage in certain area, we will be vulnerable or open to attack in other area

this is the nature of things. or yin and yang

so how to recover or cover your opening quickly

how to counter the opponent's moves and counter moves etc

--

how to win or recover in your losses

bai zhong qiu cheng

--

that is how you gain into the 80%

--

:)

[hskwarrior]

It shouldn't have an effect on KUNG FU at all. anyone who studies gung fu to turn it into a commercial business is a sell out. no better than United Studios of Self Defense.

[MightyB]

The Pareto Principle is just an example of how to gain maximum efficiency out of YOUR training experience.

If you're in to kung fu for cultural enrichment, coordination, performance, etc. you should apply the principle accordingly for maximum efficiency for you.

[MightyB]

It shouldn't have an effect on KUNG FU at all. anyone who studies gung fu to turn it into a commercial business is a sell out. no better than United Studios of Self Defense.

Why?

Why can't a person make a living out of doing something they love? Why does that make them a sell out?

I for one f*cking hate work most of the time and would love to do nothing but kung fu.

[hskwarrior]

Why?

Why can't a person make a living out of doing something they love? Why does that make them a sell out?

I for one f*cking hate work most of the time and would love to do nothing but kung fu.

I shouldn't have to explain why. Do what you do. In my book, its not cool just to learn martial arts so you can go make money from it.

If you teach out of the passion for teaching, preserving, and promoting something that is meaningful to you and money comes because of it, cool. but if you learn it just to go get paid from it you didn't have any love or passion for it in the first place. thats just how i see it. only my opinion.

we all hate work. but even my sifu had a day time job and taught at night.

[Lucas]

its all in the spirit. if you truly want to give something back in terms of teaching, then that is why you teach. even if you end up opening a full time school, and supporting yourself and your family, as long as your spirit is in the right place, its ok. i believe the more that we gain, the more we should look at giving back to those near us and to our communities, what ever they may be.

if your heart is in the right place, you cannot go wrong.

[hskwarrior]

its all in the spirit. if you truly want to give something back in terms of teaching, then that is why you teach. even if you end up opening a full time school, and supporting yourself and your family, as long as your spirit is in the right place, its ok. i believe the more that we gain, the more we should look at giving back to those near us and to our communities, what ever they may be.

i support that.

[MightyB]

So back to the topic -

Here's a thought experiment to show how you can use the Pereto Principle.

Let's say you're the Sifu. A student comes to you and expresses an interest in performance, primarily forms and forms competition. They want to be a talou champion. How would you train them?

[Golden Arms]

So back to the topic -

Here's a thought experiment to show how you can use the Pereto Principle.

Let's say you're the Sifu. A student comes to you and expresses an interest in performance, primarily forms and forms competition. They want to be a talou champion. How would you train them?

Explain to them that I teach how the art is used and that a byproduct of good body mechanics and understanding may be that their sets eventually look good to the outside observer.

Or send them down the street to the local Wushu school if they just want to dance.

"Performing" a form for competition is as pointless and empty as reading your favorite book out loud to a group of people that also like books but may not have the same taste as you. If you want to demonstrate your art, use it.

[hskwarrior]

As a Sifu, I would inform the guy that if he is only looking to compete during forms then he shouldn't expect to learn the entire system, only forms that he would be interested in learning. I wouldn't show him how to use what's in it because thats not what he's coming to me for.

regardless of the handful of people who hate forms on this KUNG FU FORUM forms competitions will not go away and they don't really have to either. they have their place. just like cooking competitions, bowling, or anything else.

[MightyB]

Explain to them that I teach how the art is used and that a byproduct of good body mechanics and understanding may be that their sets eventually look good to the outside observer.

Or send them down the street to the local Wushu school if they just want to dance.

"Performing" a form for competition is as pointless and empty as reading your favorite book out loud to a group of people that also like books but may not have the same taste as you. If you want to demonstrate your art, use it.

I think you misunderstood. Where I'm going is that it's possible to train each according to their own needs depending on what they want to accomplish. You shouldn't train the fighter the same as the person who's going for health and longevity. Someone who wants to dominate the traditional forms division isn't going to practice, or shouldn't practice the same way as your average recreational LARPer - get where I'm going?

[MightyB]

As a Sifu, I would inform the guy that if he is only looking to compete during forms then he shouldn't expect to learn the entire system, only forms that he would be interested in learning. I wouldn't show him how to use what's in it because thats not what he's coming to me for.

regardless of the handful of people who hate forms on this KUNG FU FORUM forms competitions will not go away and they don't really have to either. they have their place. just like cooking competitions, bowling, or anything else.

This is actually Pereto at work. Why waste their and your time doing anything else? Focus on the "winner" forms and drill for flexibility and explosive movement. You could taylor a very specific training program for this person.

[hskwarrior]

You could taylor a very specific training program for this person.

Tailoring gung fu for an individual has always been part of my training and teaching. my sifu, his sifu and his sifu always tailored it for the person learning it.

[Golden Arms]

I think you misunderstood. Where I'm going is that it's possible to train each according to their own needs depending on what they want to accomplish. You shouldn't train the fighter the same as the person who's going for health and longevity. Someone who wants to dominate the traditional forms division isn't going to practice, or shouldn't practice the same way as your average recreational LARPer - get where I'm going?

I see where you are going with that. I feel its important to be honest with the student. If they wish to practice for forms competition at the highest levels they should go to a school that trains to do just that (wushu school). My specialization is very specific, and apparently fairly rare in this day and age (how to train kung fu for using it).

From my standpoint, one size fits all is exactly why Chinese Martial Arts has taken such a nose dive. You don't walk into a serious boxing gym and expect them to teach you how to be a cardio boxing instructor do you?

Sorry, this is not directed at any one person but more public perception in general. I feel like my tolerance for BS in the arts I love goes down every year. There is no reason to cater to everyone unless you wish to be a jack of all trades, master of none. I don't run a school that aims to do that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Simplicity rules.
Gross motor skills are always easier and more effective to apply under pressure than fine motor skills.
I don't like percentages that much but I can say this:
In the vast majority of fights I have been in, in and out of the ring, the basics have ALWAYS worked.
Sometimes I may turn a basic moves, like a hook, into an advanced move like a Hook with A PE fist instead of the regular fist, but it is still the basics.
So, to use the Pareto Principle:
80% of everything I do is basic and 20% is advanced.
80% of my training involves hitting things, the other 20 is supplementary.

[Taixuquan99]

Should we be applying Godwin's Law as well?

[MightyB]

Should we be applying Godwin's Law as well?

The Nazi's knew how to apply Pereto's law. :D

[hskwarrior]

it takes money to make money

[MightyB]

The Nazi's knew how to apply Pereto's law. :D

This is an example of Godwin's Law. I in no way endorse Hitler or the Nazis.

[Taixuquan99]

This is an example of Godwin's Law. I in no way endorse Hitler or the Nazis.

MightyB just happens to be really into WWII historical reenactments.

[Lucas]

the m1 garand is bad ass

[Taixuquan99]

the m1 garand is bad ass

Totally agree.

Granted, MightyB might prefer something a bit more Lugerish.

[Lucas]

Totally agree.

Granted, MightyB might prefer something a bit more Lugerish.

haha :eek:

[Taixuquan99]

I think I sort of applied that idea when I came up with how I train and train others now. More contact, in a more refined approach, more of the time, if you don't work out on your own, you will hurt from the class.

[MightyB]

Totally agree.

Granted, MightyB might prefer something a bit more Lugerish.

They found me out - Shizen!!!

[Taixuquan99]

They found me out - Shizen!!!

I knew there3 was something peculiar about your mantis stepping.

[Lucas]

and the knee high shiny leather boots.

[MightyB]

and the knee high shiny leather boots.

Don't forget the little mustache and the "Mo" haircut (three stooges)