Derren Brown - Science of Scams - Reveals brick breaking tricks

[IronFist]

Good video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ5ump8ZAn8

[Indrafist]

Back in the 90's I published a series of letters in the UK's Martial Arts Illustrated magazine saying that a western trained hypnotist could easily replicate such things as PP KO's all that would be necessary was a belief in the 'subjects' that the hypnotist was a 'master' of pressure point knock-outs and the rest would follow. It wasn't a popular thing to point out.
Similarly, with such things as Iron Body/Vest etc. Circus performers in the west have been doing that kind of thing for centuries. Interestingly, when not in the 'zone', these same performers feel pain just like anyone else and will scream if they unexpectedly tread on a nail or a tack. Professor of Neuroscience Susan Greenfield in the TV series 'Brain Story' (2000) looked at circus performers and pain control. Qi/Chi projection has been known of in the west (by other names) for centuries. Franz Anton Mesmer's 'Animal Magnetism' is an example. Western healers do exactly the same thing as Chinese Qi projectors but don't require ritual postural training or breathing regimens to achieve their effects. I've been a hypnotherapist in private practice for over thirty years (and between 1990 and 2001) in the UK National Health Service. I was also apprenticed to a western spiritual healer from 1980 to 1985 and have been a martial artist for 44 years (38 years in TCMA).
It doesn’t surprise me at all about Derren, and I’ve no doubt he could replicate other phenomenon associated with martial arts with ease – beyond exposing fraudulent brick breaking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nothing new under the sun.

[IronFist]

Back in the 90's I published a series of letters in the UK's Martial Arts Illustrated magazine saying that a western trained hypnotist could easily replicate such things as PP KO's all that would be necessary was a belief in the 'subjects' that the hypnotist was a 'master' of pressure point knock-outs and the rest would follow. It wasn't a popular thing to point out.
Similarly, with such things as Iron Body/Vest etc. Circus performers in the west have been doing that kind of thing for centuries. Interestingly, when not in the 'zone', these same performers feel pain just like anyone else and will scream if they unexpectedly tread on a nail or a tack. Professor of Neuroscience Susan Greenfield in the TV series 'Brain Story' (2000) looked at circus performers and pain control. Qi/Chi projection has been known of in the west (by other names) for centuries. Franz Anton Mesmer's 'Animal Magnetism' is an example. Western healers do exactly the same thing as Chinese Qi projectors but don't require ritual postural training or breathing regimens to achieve their effects. I've been a hypnotherapist in private practice for over thirty years (and between 1990 and 2001) in the UK National Health Service. I was also apprenticed to a western spiritual healer from 1980 to 1985 and have been a martial artist for 44 years (38 years in TCMA).
It doesn’t surprise me at all about Derren, and I’ve no doubt he could replicate other phenomenon associated with martial arts with ease – beyond exposing fraudulent brick breaking.

I bet those letters received considerable backlash from the martial arts community, am I right?

Martial artists do not like to have their beliefs challenged, especially when they've spent a lot of time believing that their master has mystical powers.

Regarding conditioning, I can say that back when I was doing (mostly external) iron body (forearm and shin) conditioning, it still worked even when I wasn't "in the zone." I remember banging my forearm and shin on something accidentally once and expecting to feel pain, and then being like "whoa... cool... no pain."

Of course, that's because it was external conditioning, the effects of which can be explained through physics and physiology. And then when I stopped training, it eventually went away (now it hurts again when I bang my shin on stuff).

But there was no mystic qi or anything there. Just like if a muay Thai guy bangs his shin on something, it's not going to hurt.

[Indrafist]

I was told by the editor that I wasn't considering the 'intangibles' in martial arts.
There was also a lot of fuss from the PP KO community.
These days I try to keep out of discussions on Qi/Chi - but there have been some good ones here recently. I also had the cheek to present a paper to a conference on martial arts at Manchester Metropolitan University (Sports and Exercise Science) chaired by Prof David Collins - who is now at Edinburgh University I believe, called: 'Hyperventilation, Trance States and Suggestion in the Martial Arts'. That didn't go down well either. I said amongst other things that 'subjects' performing Karate's Sanchin Kata or Hung Gar's Iron Wire set, should be hooked up to an infa-red mass spectrometer - (a clinical capnograph) to measure end tidal partial pressures of C02 (PeT C02) - in other words real-time measurements of the acid-base balance of the body - and to test their sensitization to dangerously low (Pet C02) i.e. arterial values that would trigger snooth muscle spasm in the body's muscular tubing (blood vessals, bronchioles etc) and which can, in untrained subjects, provoke coronary artery spasm and/or a cardiac arrythmia. Respiratory alkalosis - the systemic condition where acid in the form of dissolved carbon dioxide (carbonic acid) in the body's fluid mediums is 'blown off' by increased respiratory drive: also induces trance states and analgesia. It increases suggestability too, which is one reason why many religious cults encourage hyperventilation in their members. All of this is of course besides the point if it's qi/chi rather than acid/base regulation that governs the whole process.

[Taixuquan99]

In my experience of people who do iron body for effectiveness, not for vaudevillian fame, the external aspect was simply building up the area as Ironfist describes, the internal was body placement, so that one is not harmed not because of magic, but by subtly altering body placement so that the blow does not land at an optimal impact point.

The most commonly seen example of the latter is dealing with round kicks by placement of the lats.

[IronFist]

In my experience of people who do iron body for effectiveness, not for vaudevillian fame, the external aspect was simply building up the area as Ironfist describes, the internal was body placement, so that one is not harmed not because of magic, but by subtly altering body placement so that the blow does not land at an optimal impact point.

The most commonly seen example of the latter is dealing with round kicks by placement of the lats.

I have no problem with any of that.

It's the "that roundhouse kick didn't hurt me because my qi is in my torso protecting me" that I have a problem with.

How about you let me roundhouse kick you in the side when you're not flexing all your muscles waiting for the impact and see how well your qi protects you :D

I just don't get why people need to insist that they have mystical powers. Being able to take punches and kicks is an impressive skill. People will be impressed regardless.

Unless the whole thing is a giant experiment in gullibility, in which case, carry on.

edit - I'm not saying all qigong people do this, but a lot of them do.

[IronFist]

I was told by the editor that I wasn't considering the 'intangibles' in martial arts.
There was also a lot of fuss from the PP KO community.
These days I try to keep out of discussions on Qi/Chi - but there have been some good ones here recently. I also had the cheek to present a paper to a conference on martial arts at Manchester Metropolitan University (Sports and Exercise Science) chaired by Prof David Collins - who is now at Edinburgh University I believe, called: 'Hyperventilation, Trance States and Suggestion in the Martial Arts'. That didn't go down well either. I said amongst other things that 'subjects' performing Karate's Sanchin Kata or Hung Gar's Iron Wire set, should be hooked up to an infa-red mass spectrometer - (a clinical capnograph) to measure end tidal partial pressures of C02 (PeT C02) - in other words real-time measurements of the acid-base balance of the body - and to test their sensitization to dangerously low (Pet C02) i.e. arterial values that would trigger snooth muscle spasm in the body's muscular tubing (blood vessals, bronchioles etc) and which can, in untrained subjects, provoke coronary artery spasm and/or a cardiac arrythmia. Respiratory alkalosis - the systemic condition where acid in the form of dissolved carbon dioxide (carbonic acid) in the body's fluid mediums is 'blown off' by increased respiratory drive: also induces trance states and analgesia. It increases suggestability too, which is one reason why many religious cults encourage hyperventilation in their members. All of this is of course besides the point if it's qi/chi rather than acid/base regulation that governs the whole process.

Get out of here with your science :p

[Taixuquan99]

How about you let me roundhouse kick you in the side when you're not flexing all your muscles waiting for the impact and see how well your qi protects you :D



You don't flex all your muscles to do this, in any style.:confused: You shrug your shoulder and flare your lats, but you certainly don't tense all your muscles. No one does that I've ever seen.

[GeneChing]

...just don't go all Carradine with it. :eek:

On a more serious note, I'd love to see some of your research, Indrafist. Sounds intriguing.

[IronFist]

You don't flex all your muscles to do this, in any style.:confused: You shrug your shoulder and flare your lats, but you certainly don't tense all your muscles. No one does that I've ever seen.

Flare lats = flexing lats.

The more muscles you flex at once, the more tension each individual muscle can generate. I forgot what it's called but there's a name for it. In other words, if you flex your lats as hard as you can, they may be generating x amount of tension. If you also flex your abs, pecs, and arms as hard as you can at the same time, your lats will be generating slightly greater than x tension.

In the case of defense, more flexing at the moment of impact = more protection.

I say "flex all your muscles" because most of the demos I've seen involve the guy flexing pretty much everything as he prepares for the blow.

And I'm not criticizing that. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow (assuming you are taking it and not deflecting or rolling with it or any of the other methods of dealing with impact).

People instinctively do this. Walk up to your friend and tell him you're going to punch him in the stomach and pull your fist back. Watch him instinctively flex most of the muscles in his torso.

Even so, my point holds true: even if the guy is flexing only his lats at the moment of impact, it's still not qi that is doing the protecting.

[IronFist]

...just don't go all Carradine with it. :eek:

On a more serious note, I'd love to see some of your research, Indrafist. Sounds intriguing.

Same here.

There was a video (posted here?) of a hypnotist/mentalist type guy who went to a no touch knockout school and was able to replicate the teacher's no touch knockout on the students. The teacher was surprised!

I cannot remember what the video was called and I've searched a lot on youtube and can't find it. Maybe somebody here can find it. It would be cool to see it because I think it's relevant to what Indrafist is talking about.

[Taixuquan99]

Flare lats = flexing lats.

The more muscles you flex at once, the more tension each individual muscle can generate. I forgot what it's called but there's a name for it. In other words, if you flex your lats as hard as you can, they may be generating x amount of tension. If you also flex your abs, pecs, and arms as hard as you can at the same time, your lats will be generating slightly greater than x tension.

In the case of defense, more flexing at the moment of impact = more protection.

I say "flex all your muscles" because most of the demos I've seen involve the guy flexing pretty much everything as he prepares for the blow.

And I'm not criticizing that. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow (assuming you are taking it and not deflecting or rolling with it or any of the other methods of dealing with impact).

People instinctively do this. Walk up to your friend and tell him you're going to punch him in the stomach and pull your fist back. Watch him instinctively flex most of the muscles in his torso.

Even so, my point holds true: even if the guy is flexing only his lats at the moment of impact, it's still not qi that is doing the protecting.

You have to flex your chest to bring your lats into position, anyway, but I see your point.

However, since your definition of qi and mine are different, and since I've actually read more source material and scholarly work on exactly what is being talked about, In the source language and out, I'm not gonna get in that argument based on solely the carnival explanation of the term that you insist everyone use.

[IronFist]

You have to flex your chest to bring your lats into position, anyway, but I see your point.

True. If a muscle is not contracting against an outside resisting force, it fires with its antagonist.

Hold your elbow at a 90 degree angle and flex your biceps. Your triceps also flexes.

Now do a dumbbell curl. Your triceps remains relaxed unless you intentionally flex it.


However, since your definition of qi and mine are different, and since I've actually read more source material and scholarly work on exactly what is being talked about, In the source language and out, I'm not gonna get in that argument based on solely the carnival explanation of the term that you insist everyone use.

Cheers. I only hate the scam artists and "mystic power protects me" people who are actually using physics and body mechanics, or at worst, intentional sleight of hand. We're probably mostly in agreement anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since chi means "breath" or "air" then yes, when I tense and direct my breath to my gut to take a shot, I am using chi.
:p

[bawang]

the secret is white people

[jdhowland]

the secret is white people




not just white people
http://www.artofliving.org/us-en

basic practice is entirely pranayama/kriyayoga/hyperventilation